On the new theme stream system

[weary oxide]

I find the new theme stream system currently worse than old theme streams. Here's my two cents

The new theme stream system gives neuro a plot to follow and some environment elements to interact with. This is cool, but also not necessarily as fun. The stories are scripted by whoever is in control of these streams and just railroad till the end. Neither neuro nor chat controls where things are going. Neuro can say she jumps out of the window, but oh sorry she can't really because it's not part of the script. At this point it feels like reading a fiction loosely put together that's dragging on to fill two hours, rather than your typical random neuro bullshit go. This really goes against neuro's agency and chat interactivity, which are what makes neuro streams unique

One consequence is that the production value of these streams falls fully on the script writer. In a 2 hour stream, there might be 10 minutes where things are happening because that's how much content is written. The rest is neuro rambling and waiting for things to happen

Old theme streams used to just set a keyword. The content is neuro making stuff up while chat try to make jokes or ask questions under said theme. A good example is the fast food stream where chat orders food through highlighted messages. People get to interact with evil and co-create the content. This makes the stream interactive, unpredictable, and fun. Imagine if instead evil gets 10 orders that are prewritten, goes to the office at 1 hour mark and talks to neuro for 30 minutes, solves a random puzzle in the kitchen for whatever reason, while chat just watch it unfold. It wouldn't be so peak. This is how the new system works and I think it currently takes the fun away

The DND streams with Snuffy and that one RP section in a dev stream worked around this issue, because a human collab partner can improv and add in new assets at run time. Until the system can handle that, hard scripted theme streams are going to be worse in my books

[past kindle]

btw putting her in a tv series doesnt make her like a real streamer

[calm whale]

also they're poorly scripted

[wind cosmos]

theres only been 3 of these so far, so theres no surprise theyre scuffed

[cinder frigate]

they're fun

[wind cosmos]

so?

[calm whale]

fun yes, good from a narrative perspective? no

[past kindle]

i guess we just ignored the screenshot

[wind cosmos]

whats your point

[past kindle]

unless he had a change of heart he's going against what he said

its also a lot less fun when its hardcoded

[weary oxide]

The point is there's little neuro agency even if they are well written

[wind cosmos]

how so

nvm, i get it now, thanks, hotchicken for actually explaining the point

[past kindle]

ok

[cinder frigate]

I do think that scripted streams are not the best from both a chat and neuro interaction standpoint. apart from the crazy long queue and the issues surrounding it I think the fast food stream was brilliant.
but I do enjoy the idea of a story that can keep progressing a bit each week. even if they are more a slideshow then a choose your own adventure, I still for more wednesday streams, especially if greater emphasis is placed on the continuity and storywriting going forward. it has a lot of potential I think

[grizzled onyx]

So lets string her along on a pre written script with 0 agency

[wind cosmos]

tru, tho i guess if nuro was given more control over the narrative, it could go off the rails quick, especially since theres chat interaction involved (though i guess that could be changed, but its unlikely)
the story being chaotic would be fun, but it might get a little convoluted or confusing, since she just says whatever

[calm whale]

I'll push a hypothetical, let's imagine this was a regular theme stream, unattached to the nebulous theme plot, like the finance stream, with chat being able to submit throught highlights or the google forum that neuro gets to choose from (hopefully with being able to choose repeated questions thing fixed), what would actually be different?

It wouldn't have the pre written stuff that was written by vani/vedal, it would instead be replaced by the viewer suggestions which are better for overall engagement since viewer participations are a big draw of this channel

It wouldn't have the pacing issues where we wait for the plot that we barely know to advance

It would just be a regular theme stream that ppl may or may not like and nobody would be making the critiques like it's an actual tv show because that's not an expectations

well I do appreciate this being tried out, overall they just feel lesser than normal theme streams when I consider it feels draggged down by needing to fit into some greater narrative

[dreamy quest]

I don't know, I personally actually like the idea of this new system. Yes I agree, there is much less of Neuro's agency as to where it is going, but to me it's not necessarily less fun. It feels like watching Neuro playing a game and reacting to the stuff happening around her. Watching her solve riddles, react to changing scenes during last stream or fill in the job applications or reacting to 'Evil's messages' today was amusing.
And keep in mind the system is still new and Vani and co are still learning what works and what doesn't, I'm sure the more time goes on the more solid and creative these themed streams will be.

Putting chat and Neuro / Evil fully in charge of leading the narrative is completly different beast. It works for non-progressing stuff like McNeuro's stream, but wouldn't really work (in my opinion at least) for a consistently developing narrative. Highlighted messages are just all over the place and too random and repetitive for that (remember for example how many Big Smoke's orders we got?) and they often make Neuro and Evil forget what they were doing / talking about before.

Anyway, I simply see this new system as new kind of streams that we haven't experienced before and I'm personally really interested to see how it will develop.

[primal estuary]

I may write up a more thorough response for this later, but for the most part I disagree. I do think there is a different appeal to the non-scripted themed streams, and that we should see a healthy mix of both. I also think there are some improvements to be made to this type of format. But despite that, I've had more fun with each of these more scripted streams than I had with most of the other ones, like, say, the comedy stream

[calm whale]

just make the writing better in the future

cuz rn the pacing is awful

less agency then regular theme streams cuz they gotta force in a narrative eventually

[dreamy quest]

Yeah, imo robbery and today's stream were dragging a bit, but Neuro's work stream felt right. I don't mind shorter streams if it means the pacing is better

[calm whale]

today's stream felt like a regular theme stream they forced into the arc

real "oh shit we gotta put out an episode this week" vibes

[calm whale]

prison

[vernal schooner]

Why don't scientists trust atoms?

[rotund topaz]

TL;DR:

• I appreciate Vedal experimenting with content and pushing for more interactive themed streams, even if the twins’ AI limitations sometimes restrict creativity.

• Chill streams basically supplement this anyway imo, but revisiting the old theme stream style and corresponding ideas occasionally would definitely be nice since I do think they are a pretty good balance between order and structure vs. full unbridled chaos and autonomy.

• People obviously shouldn’t treat this like a serious TV show. It’s more casual and experimental, like past arcs that were very fun but not narratively perfect.

• An even sweeter idea would be potentially connecting Neuro to old choose-your-own-adventure or visual novel games. Seems doable and exciting. Idk why Vedal hasn’t even tried this yet. He clearly loves games where Neuro gets to make choices and has said as much multiple times. He also described recent themed streams and making a visual novel without the dialogue or whatever so why not actual visual novels?

Full rant (Just read the TL;DR lol, I just like yapping for no reason sometimes): 

First of all, I love that Vedal’s being more experimental with content. He definitely shouldn’t be criticized for at least trying to produce peak instead of being satisfied with mediocrity even if he’s probably creatively bankrupt at this point lol. For me, the biweekly theme streams are certainly welcome when we didn’t even have a guarantee like that for theme streams beforehand. It’s clear that what Vedal wants for these theme streams is more interactivity from the twins beyond just responding to basic highlighted messages which I also applaud.

Unfortunately, the way Vedal allows more ability and agency for the twins to interact with more things paradoxically highlights how limited they are as AIs and also kinda restricts their freedom to do what they are best at, which is yap and make up bs. These interactions are just not flexible enough.

Personally, I don’t mind this all that much because imo that’s what chill streams are for anyway with all the limited handholding and and freedom whatnot. I do still agree that Vedal should try the old system of theme streams from time to time when he feels like it outside of the story arc or whatever else he’s planning. Ultimately tho, let Vedal cook. Can’t really do much else anyway. Idk why people suddenly want to treat this like an actual tv show lmao it’s not that serious and it never was. It’s not a full blown production with a team of writers for an episodic series. Rather, it’s way more reminiscent of the bread/court arc, which I wouldn’t seriously say was a cinematic masterpiece or so narratively compelling but I think we can all agree that overall those streams were genuinely very kino. Of course, it didn’t last as long as the recent arc and they were much less structured, but I think it’s worthwhile if Vedal wants to explore this rabbit hole a little more.

…Actually you know what, nevermind scrap all that, I just had a much better idea. Vedal or whoever else should just hook up Neuro to old choose-your-own-adventure text based computer games or actual visual novels like Slay the Princess which they’ve already played before. I’m pretty sure I’ve already seen this suggested before as well. Surely some people are already making game integrations for this right? It would allow the twins to play through full games and we would get to see their playthroughs and reactions. Wouldn't be an issue with coming up with a good narrative or whatever bs then and I doubt Vedal would be against it considering what he's said or implied in the past. Like seriously it really shouldn’t be that hard right? I don’t see why it would be. There was a game in the game jam that had integration like that. Would LOVE to see it.

[calm whale]

peak idea

[rotund topaz]

Ty, it’s so peak yet so simple. Should’ve been done a long time ago

[weary oxide]

Neuro streams have always been like gambling because neuro is full RNG. Sometimes you get peak sometimes you get therapy. That's part of the charm

To clarify, I don't think writing is the problem but the format

The court stream and bread arc was so good because it's super random. They were spontaneously built onto random things neuro/evil said

[rotund topaz]

True

[weary oxide]

Neuro wants to jump out a window. Neuro wants to save the HR person. Neuro wants to derail everything all the time.
It is impossible to predict any of that, yet there's only one correct story, so the progression system only highlights the restrictions

[hot fern]

i like this feedback a lot

[calm whale]

choose your own adventure stream soon?

[rotund topaz]

Indeed, Neuro wants to do everything but ultimately can do nothing herself. In the end most of it is all make believe and play pretend with nothing more palpable to show. Truly a tragedy. Currently, Vedal wants to make Neuro less reliant on his and other’s presence on stream, but in return the presence behind the curtain and its necessity only feels ever discordantly stronger as a result.

Of course, that doesn’t mean the presence of others on stream is bad, it’s just that they can’t and shouldn’t always be around to babysit the twins. Independence and change is just a part of growing up. The only genuinely constant presence on the channel is Neuro and Evil themselves and even then they will constantly change and evolve well into the future as everyone else does.

Not saying the current status quo is wholly acceptable. There should be more of what you are asking for. Stagnancy in either way isn’t ideal and variety breathes life into the channel. Thankfully, your feedback seems to be heard so you probably have less to worry about now. As I reflect on how things have steadily progressed so far amidst the boundlessly uncertain future, I just hold on to the small, but reassuring hope that Vedal still has a vague idea of where he wants to guide the twins and eventually this will all develop in a favorable direction, however long or whatever form it may take.

[vital mica]

I like your message though at the end you dismiss vedal in this passive manner in that 'hopefully' he still has a vague idea of where to guide the twins into the future. Either way all of this is still new and will only get better that's for sure so let's all just see.

[rotund topaz]

Well, he’s certainly not perfect and idk what the future really holds. Plenty of people have disappointed before. I try to maintain a cautious sense of optimism

[vital mica]

We don't really have another case such as vedal, his case is kind of special. In a sense he is paving a path no one has ever done since AI is still in its infancy. We'll just have to wait and see how vedal tackles this.

[rotund topaz]

Exactly

[frank hawk]

If you think of new theme streams like their in their early access alpha version they're doing pretty well. He can't learn to make them better without doing them so there's going to be a rough start!

[shell igloo]

Making a human streamer analogy, I think this would be similar to a streamer playing a game made by their mod team, which is, imo, cool, regardless of how 'railroady' it may be.

[frank hawk]

It adds more variety. It wouldn't be good if all streams were like this but its a cool change of pace, I personally think they're good and are getting better over time, which means they could get really good.

Like super really good.

[dim bolt]

I personally don't mind those being scripted since it's a fresh new approach to content. And I think that in the vacuum those streams were great, and I enjoyed all of them so far.

The only issue I have with them is that if the whole premise of them is gonna be to script the twins to do stuff so that we can have a story, then have an actual story. Because I don't see a reason to do those streams this way if the story ends up as one twin doing menial tasks (and that's the part we see on stream) while the other escapes the police, gets caught, goes through a trial, gets locked up, escapes, gets reformed, finishes college, gets married and settles in Hawaii (and that part is told to us in text).

If we're not gonna use this new form of the stream to actually attempt to tell some coherent story then I see no point in scripting twins to do stuff and I would much rather see more streams like the Infomercial, McNeuros etc. If a stream is too complicated to set up in 2 weeks then just delay it and put anything else for that week, like a repeat of a previous liked theme stream.

[pastel vortex]

I think if this ends up being a regular ongoing thing after the prison break arc it would be cool to get some experienced writers/artists to plan out plotlines. Like a parallel to karaoke streams and PB, another kind of stream with artistry behind it.

Imagine something that was a cool experience on its own merit, and then Neuro/Evil get to play around in it. Maybe this is where things could be headed based on what Vani said in NN so if it is then I'm excited for it.

[exotic mortar]

Bumping this since I missed the Dev stream today. Since Vedal's go to for solving problems is just make another AI. There are AI that specialize in running scenarios, Vedal could just make one of those, give it a beginning and end goal then have it run the scenario that allows Neuro to interact with it so it isn't so linear and forced.