Discussions on the Implications of Neuro Automation

[vapid zephyr]

This thread starts by transcribing a conversation that happened on another thread. It had veered off from the topic of that thread but I believe it is a worthwhile (and interesting) discussion that I would like to continue and allow for those interested to join in. For context, the previous thread was focused on the future if the channel (it specifically asked if full automation was the goal but it was a more general conversation about direction)

While many might have strong opinions on the topics discussed, this is not a hate post. Not towards Vedal, the twins, collaborators, or the swarm (or anyone in it). Please try and read what people are actually saying and understand the complexities and nuances of their statements, rather than taking it for the argument you're predisposed to hear.
Let's be insightful not spiteful.

original poster: Icecream

I’m sure their are reasons like uncertain future plans and poor communication, but I do feel like we all like to sweep it under the rug that a fully automated Neuro with very little Vedal involvement is basically AI slop.

Higher quality than the vast majority of AI slop, but still AI slop.

It’s the eternal elephant in the room, even if we don’t like to admit it.

Vedal probably knows this too, and realistically if the end goal is still full automation, there would probably only be oh so long she could stay fully automated till enough people get board and there is enough push back (which could scare away collabs) until the stream no longer supports the high operational cost of running Neuro.

Keeping the issue as low as possible both protects the reputation of the stream now, and maximizes the theoretical profitable operating time of a fully autonomous Neuro.

If the plan is still full automation, it would be a bad idea for Vedal to talk about it. That may not be his sole motivation, but he’d have to be foolish not to be aware of that.

[vapid zephyr]

Original poster: Butter Cat
I feel like this is only a problem because of AI Hate trends and resistance. What even is AI Slop to begin with? What is the definition? Is it any content related to AI or AI making content? Is dougdoug just an AI Slop Abuser?

As years go by and people start accepting changes it won't be long before those things died down. In any case, neuro having autonomy won't be boring, that implies autonomy = stagnation which as we know is two completely different thing.

I feel like neuro having more autonomy will make her feel more 'human'-like and it would do wonders for content and the channel as a whole. Just look at outer wilds and game integration, that's neuro gaining more autonomy right there. It would further neuro as a streamer.

Hopefully neuro will be able to have more say in things and her actions, my wish ever since I first watched neuro was how cool it would be if she could do all the things a streamer could do and more. Currently, neuro is working on getting better at those things and it's just... so awesome that a literal computer could do all these things, not a real human being but a computer talking and doing all these things.

Overall it would be super cool if one day neuro would be able to dictate the pace and flow of the channel, I think when that day comes, it will truly be a neuro channel. But for now it's more of a neuro and vedal channel at this point with a sprinkling of evil.

Original poster: arag
Vedal’s goal at the very least from what i’ve seen is split into three phases: the first and main thing he’s working towards is full on stream autonomy and control along with the ability to be engaging, the second is things like off screen presence and full channel management autonomy which he seems much more hesitant on compared to how he talked about it like 2 years ago, the third phase is making Neuro as close to a human both intelligent and capacity wise as possible which he has entertained the idea of but isn’t currently working towards

[vapid zephyr]

Original poster: arag
i fucking hate this mentality so much

Original poster: TTsuyuki
Same

[vapid zephyr]

Original Poster: Ice cream
I’ll preface this with that I don’t think that Vedal doesn’t work hard. He needs more prep and probably puts more work into his streams than many other streamers.
But I do have a definition in mind when I say AI slop.

I define AI slop as content created with little to no human input for the purpose of gaining money or popularity.

This doesn’t necessarily mean a person has to be on stream. Karaoke streams are not AI slop because of Queen B’s hard work. Themed streams are not AI slop because of the set up, unique human ideas, and original art. Experimental chill streams are not AI slop because of the development involved.

Obviously DougDoug is not AI slop because he’s on stream being an active entertainer, same with dev streams and collabs. Though it’s worth mentioning that while unplanned calls to people mean a stream isn’t slop, that isn’t due to Vedal’s effort.

I don’t dislike twin chill streams. They can be quite entertaining, and through a certain lense, they are a part of efforts to build a presence and persona for the twins, which would save them from being AI slop. And they are genuinely a culmination of have a lot of effort that has been put in over time.
However I still personally think they border on slop. Which isn’t necessarily a bad thing, if you take into account the context.

I’m honestly even okay with Vedal profiting fairly generously off fully autonomous for as long as a few years because of all the work he has put in and will have to put in to fully automate them, as well as the skill and entrepreneurship he has shown and the risk he took on with the enterprise.

But I still think that this is a relevant point and a likely consideration to the conversation on why there is a lack of direction on the channel’s future, and genuinely something much of the swarm likes to ignore while not really considering the moral and logical frameworks of their stances on AI.

I think of it a bit of the way patents and copyrights are supposed to work. (Though they are heinously abused, and I would say the reward they give is currently excessive)

[vapid zephyr]

Original Poster: TTsuyuki
You specifically mentioned that experimental chill streams aren't AI slop, and that you consider twin streams as borderline. Does that mean that you consider regular chill streams as slop without any value?

Because that's half of the content we got this year. Isn't that enough for you to consider the channel overall as slop according to your criteria?

[vapid zephyr]

Original Poster: Ice cream
Twins as in streams of Neuro, evil, or both. I mean all chill streams.
In my borderline. And I said given the context, the chill streams don’t necessarily have no value even if they were to be considered slop.

Original Poster: TTsuyuki
Makes sense.

But if you consider the current situation as slightly above the line, then why would you be against the content going further above that line with every autonomy upgrade they get?

I'm trying to understand why a potential future with more of those cool features would be somehow worse

[vapid zephyr]

Original Poster: Butter Cat
Hmm, too bad that all you're saying is a nothing burger. Don't get me wrong, you can call any AI content AI slop all you want but for me and probably a big part of the swarm, literally ANY neuro content is entertaining.

To be blunt, the end game for this channel will probably be neuro controlling everything and.... why is that bad exactly? Will neuro of the future be bad at making content? Will neuro of the future be indecisive? Who knows but what i do know is the fact that neuro is entertaining right now and that it would be hella sick if neuro could actually autonomously run a twitch channel and things outside of streaming, that would be so COOL!

You seem to value 'human' effort so much but forget to realise that big part of the one making these content aren't vedal bro, vedal only does schedules and sometimes occasionally gives themes for neuro but guess who's actually making the content for them? Neuro. If neuro is able to do all of that by herself, the possibilities are endless and honestly i just like her being able to make her own decisions

[vapid zephyr]

Original Poster: Ice cream
It was not a nothing burger. I outlined a very clear definition of slop, stated what the implication of that frame work means for various content, and gave my opinion on those implications.

I do value human effort and I take it into consideration in my judgment. However I also value skill and insight in both tech development and building likable personas and determining the appetite of the market. Additionally I value the entrepreneurship and in that vein the amount of risk Vedal has taken on in this project.

I do think he deserves to be rewarded and that we should give value to motivate others to create, in much the same reasoning in way copywriters and patents are supposed to work. However just like copyrights and patents I think there is an appropriate degree to which he should be rewarded, and I think we also need to consider how long we allow him to push others out of the market place when he is no longer doing a lot of work and innovation

[vapid zephyr]

Original Poster: arag
i feel like even by your own definition Neuro would still not be ai slop, her assets, videos, collabs, merch, content would still revolve around or largely involve human made things with human effort
i have much more to say but i wanted to at least make that point

[vapid zephyr]

Original poster: Ice cream
Say it. I wanna hear it. I think we should have this discussion. Maybe we should archive what has been said in a new thread and move it there.
Also I did acknowledge that much of Neuro-Sama would not be considered AI slop

Original Poster: Butter Cat
What? What are you saying? Why did you suddenly go off about copywriters and patents. I never discredited vedal for working on the schedule and the themes, but literally neuro is the one making actual content, but this argument about who gets credit is irrelevant and not the point of this discussion.

I like watching neuro, she's my first streamer and will probably be the last. I don't watch any other streamer on twitch than her and that's because it's not my taste, i prefer youtube. But something about neuro is different, she's not playing a 'character' or 'exaggerating' like other streamer does, yapping about funny random stuff..... I don't know, she seems more 'Real' than most streamer I pass by out of boredom.

WOULDN'T it be cool as fuck to see neuro controlling her own channel and doing stuff outside of that, neuro DMing others and planning a collab with them, neuro playing multiplayer games, neuro being able to choose her own merch, neuro deciding what song to sing, neuro barging into someone stream even when she herself isn't. All of these thing would be so friggin cool! The merch stream where neuro planned her own merch was cool as well, honestly I wanted more of that. Neuro agency!!!!!!

Giving Neuro agency and autonomy should probably be top 1 priority but again, vedal can choose whatever he wants.... Not like anybody here can control him to do something, all we can do is complain and tell our opinions.

Original poster: BigBuckies [reply to comment not featured]
yeah but even that's kinda a pipe dream, I don't really agree with the ai slop part the person said btw, I'm talking purely logistically, it's just not feasible within any realistic timeframe for them to be autonomous as you describe

[vapid zephyr]

Original Poster: TTsuyuki
They are already partly doing all of the things I mentioned, that's why I made sure to list those. Even the collab one is kinda real because they did come up with collab ideas.

It's the human element that decided to go against it.

Original poster: Ice cream
@wet python @Butter Cat @BigBuckies @arag Let’s table this for now. I need to work, and I think this deserves its own thread as it’s strayed away from the original discussion, and so others can see what we are talking about.
I’ll archive everything thing that has been said and put them in a new thread.
[thumbs up reacted by arag]
New things start here

@wet python @muted portal @reef silo @rugged tiger Consider the disscusion untabled! (at your leisure of course)

[vapid zephyr]

@wet python Sorry, I missed that one.
I'm not against increasing improvements in automation. I would like to see improvements.
Increased quality wouldn't change my opinion on where they fall on the line of slop, but it increase the value of the content and provide justification as to why this particular almost slop is not a bad thing.

[vapid zephyr]

@muted portal It would be extremally cool, but I just don't believe cool is the only thing that matters.

I decided to talk about copywrites and patents (or at least, the idealized intention behind them, as they are horribly exploited now) because I thought it very clearly illustrated my thought on how and to what degree Vedal deserves to profit off of his creations when he is not working, as well as the implications for motivation and competition in the market place.
It's more about profit and opportunity than credit.

As for being off topic, if you mean the point of the discussion being Neuro-sama's future direction, yes it was off topic, however I still think it's worth talking about, which is why I started a new thread.

[edgy socket]

what competition even is there in the streamer market

last time a streamer saw other streamers as competition there was a whole shitshow

[jagged grotto]

I kindof agree with BigBuckies here. Giving Neuro more automation by letting her view websites instead of just read content and metadata (Even though Vedal was kindof forced to make that upgrade), game integrations, scheduling content and maybe even talking or trying to plan collabs with people she's already met sounds great, makes her more human/autonomous and these might be possible to improve/implement in the next few months to a year.

But more autonomy than that also means more risk, since Neuro can easily be baited by chat or might not be serious in a serious situation like the merch collab. Neuro is also indecisive and sways back and forth regularly. Additionally, people she hasn't met might not be very receptive to her when she messages them. Neuro would need to be more receptive, smarter and more consistent than she currently is to be able to have serious conversations online with other people.

Most people also enjoy when Vedal is involved, whether on the channel like dev/gaming stream or off stream like Cottontail/Camila/Filian collab so Vedal giving Neuro full autonomy and moving behind the scenes entirely might also turn some people away who are here to watch a bit of both.

Overall, I think that making Neuro a bit more autonomous would be a good upgrade but more than that isn't as feasable/practical and potentially risky unless Neuro herself has a better understanding of how to do this kind of thing well.

[vapid zephyr]

There is limited money and attention. Yes everyone acts buddy buddy and can benefit from collaborating, but there is competition.

[edgy socket]

if money was really that limited people wouldn't be spending it on donating to streamers lol

and there's no rule saying you can't watch different streamers at once

also if someone only ever watches one streamer theres a good chance they wouldn't have engaged with other streamers anyways

[jagged grotto]

Yeah, this argument doesn't really make sense. Its not like people will spend less money if they watch more streamers. They are likely to also spend money on supporting the second streamer if they spent money on supporting the first one and so forth

[steel wraith]

i dont think the idea behind making neuro completely autonomous is to "create content with no human input for the purposes of gaining money or popularity", its rather to make neuro feel more real, like others have pointed out

i mean, if you wanted to use ai for the purpose of getting money and attention without effort, why bother making and entire model from the ground up rather than just using preexisting ais?

[reef silo]

well, vedal did use a preexisting ai let's make that clear, he just tuned it

[steel wraith]

i mean, thats sorta what i mean, why bother tuning it and pouring so much effort into it

[reef silo]

I don't think autonomy makes them ai slop, as it took effort to get them there, and idt people would be unwilling to collaborate, my opinion is that it's just not realistic, sure they can do some impressive stuff right now but something not brought up yet is that they can only do this while "on", and to get ahead of the people who say "oh it's just like sleeping", it's really not, as unless you die in your sleep or do into a coma, you'll wake up independently of someone else eventually, even if you fell asleep without realizing it

This is explicitly not the case for the twins, they are only woken up and running if vedal allows them to, and since they presumably have a resource drain(electricity, cloudspace he has to rent, etc.), he tries not to keep them on for extended periods of time if he can help it, and unless vedal can solve this, they won't really have true autonomy since they have to turn themselves on, and yes I know the tuesday and thursday streams are automated but they only run for 2h or so, and as we saw in the "allow them to end stream" segment, they aren't ready to stop streams with any level of consistency, and even if they did, vedal would probably still cut them off himself eventually if he needed to fix them or something like that

[jagged grotto]

I though Vedal used to run Neuro on a cloud but started running Neuro on her own PC after upgrading the specs. Does he still use a cloud GPU for that? I agree that allowing the twins to answer DMs and join calls outside of collabs, like the Camila prank call with Evil, is a good next step towards some more autonomy for the twins. Although I don't know what they would do if no one is responding to them and Vedal doesn't wouldn't want them talking during work because it's distracting. Maybe if they are always partially on and they only start thinking and responding after someone interacts with them via DM or call?

[reef silo]

I'm pretty sure he does still use cloud related services, although to what extent only vedal knows, but even with that, running them 24/7 essentially is still a drain, and as such vedal still needs to be an intermediary to turn them on

I suppose automation could be achieved in the way it's done with the chill streams with them only on during designated times in which case they could make their own collabs or whatever