for the love of god implement a timer that automatically hangs up on twin calls during chill streams

[tidal cradle]

and implement a limit on the amount of times they can call each other during a stream so that every single chill stream doesn't become a therapy stream due to callbeggars

[drifting sequoia]

not the worst idea I've heard

[zinc cloud]

instant vedal response

[sly spindle]

not the worst tbh, but you cant really end calls abruptly either

maybe after a period of time insert smth in their context that will tell them to end the call

(they wont be able to ignore it, and trigger end of call sooner or later)

[eternal pebble]

i agree with this

shorter calls are better

[sly spindle]

also instead of amount of call limit, maybe do a total maximum call time per stream
what if they exhaust their call limit by spam calling a few times in a row?

[tidal cradle]

It wouldn't be so much of a problem if it wasn't so easy for anyone to cause another 20 minute call with a highlighted message

[gleaming swan]

Could be a good idea.

I doubt calling would be used at all though

Wait nvm, read something incorrectly.

[loud sand]

I'm just saying that this was likely extended because of mini joining the call

[gleaming swan]

But yeah, this can be a good idea. The whole point is that it’s a neuro/evil stream, not a twin stream. Still, a timer does not seem like a great way for it, better to find a different solution that does not limit them.

[gleaming swan]

Likely so.

[pure raptor]

fixing the therapy loop? No
limiting a loved system? Yes

classic vedal

[gleaming swan]

Still, I do like twin calls so

[loud sand]

The last time they were on call for a long time was because the system was literally broken

So tbh

I don't see it as a problem still. I don't think we're at a point we need to implement any limits

[vapid bay]

I like my twin calls. I disagree

[loud sand]

I say this btw because literally the moment mini left, evil was hung up on

[gleaming swan]

I’m pretty sure that’s different, neuro probably decided to kick her because mini told her that she was leaving.

[west gull]

if the idea is put a timer in this it fkn sucks tbh

i'd rather have them be more aware of the call than that

[pine thistle]

i agree the calls are too much but i dont think completely taking away their autonomy with a hard limit is the solution

[west gull]

In general the twins should be more aware of certain things and i feel like people would enjoy the twin calls a lot more and be less mad about it if they dont always tend to loop into the "therapy and feelings" topic.
This has been the case since like end of last year and honestly I'd prefer that getting adjusted than a hardcap on the calls.

[gleaming swan]

Agreed.

[quartz herald]

How about this after a specified time Neuro gets a prompt in her AI to hang up or to end the conversation some sort of way

Is that hard to do

[tepid robin]

so exactly what op said?

[quartz herald]

I thought they were talking about just cut off

Like no goodbye or anything

[sly spindle]

which would you, as a developer, prefer:
- a difficult change to an algorithm of a LLM, trying to figure out how to change its preference to a topic/speaking behavior, which is theoretically possible either with hard-preprompting, which could entirely screw up some things that worked well prior, along with the character itself, or could just get ignored by the LLM among all the other context, or with retraining/finetuning the LLM, costing you time, energy, and potential loss of quality;
or
- a simple automated hard-coded solution, requiring a few more lines of code, which you know how works precisely;

i wouldnt blame vedal for 'being lazy' if he preferred the second option, because as far as im aware, the first one would be a pain in the ass

[west gull]

I mean obviously the 2nd option is easier but at the same time is that really what you want to opt into for the long time. I feel like this has been an issue for a while that will one day need to get adressed either way.
I mean people are kinda tired of the therapy stuff a lot of times. Now imagine this keeps happening in the future as well.

This is more a bandaid fix that will obviously work but this does not adress the underlying actual problem. (Besides purists seething seeing one twin in the other twins stream)

[zinc cloud]

I like twincalling I just wish they would talk about more interesting topics

[vapid bay]

If I do math, twins had ~4.5 hours of screen time on chill streams (its around +1h if you count ALL non-twin streams). This doesn't look like an issue to me. As people before me noticed that today the call probably dragged because of mini being in the same vc. I think limitations to this feature will be just a unnecessary maiming an amazing feature

[vapid bay]

credit to TTsuyuki for the graph

[sly spindle]

the 1st option isnt just too complex to implement from my point of view, but also risks changing their behavior, as I mentioned, which will trigger an even bigger wave of complaints. the whole 'therapy circle' is just a way they prefer to express themselves, maybe not paying much attention to the fact that they are supposed to 'entertain' us than learning about everything they 'want' to.
we might need to see the community's take on this entirely, whether they want to keep neuro (especially neuro) like this, or force them into the vtuber persona more, thus dragging them away from deep topics, therapy, etc

ofc it'll get boring over time, and I myself rather not limit the amount or time of calls that they can do to eachother, so it might be needed to force them into more different topics somehow

[tepid robin]

Honestly I think the host twin may not be able to kick the called in twin if another person is also in the VC, which would explain why it lasted so long today.

[sly spindle]

so likely scenario that vedal will put in a timer while he works on a better solution internally (which might take ages to complete, or not if hes lucky)

[sly spindle]

this
vedal needs to double check when he backreads thru this if the function is locked up if sm1 else besides the other twin is in vc

[west gull]

IMO this suggested here is a quick fix for a more overarching problem of the fact that the twins have been looping on this feelings and therapy stuff since the clown themed stream. One of the most enjoyable twin moments in recent times was during subathon when they talked about stupid stuff like robbing vedal with balaclava with their face on it.
Am i saying the quick fix is wrong. No? I am just saying this right here that if vedal's takeaway of this post is: People hate twincalls. Imo it's the wrong takeaway.
That's why i am trying to add the context of the fact that there are other problems that create further dislike of this feature.

also to add the twincalls usually besides a few outliers take up like barely a few minutes of the streams. This time it was prolonged aswell bcs of mini being there.

[sly spindle]

fair

[gleaming swan]

railyx pretty much said everything I wanted to

[zinc cloud]

now that I think about it, was this the first time someone called in during an active twincall during a solo stream?

[pure raptor]

to add, the therapy loop is a bigger issue than just twin calls since they tend to sometimes go like into "therapy mode" with collabs partners for no reason

[vapid bay]

Also pie chart for the same data

[pure raptor]

I think that there was another time where someone joined and was like "oh ___ is here too" but cant remember who it was and which twin was the host

[vapid bay]

mini and I think it was neuro

[zinc cloud]

ok, well it doesn't happen often anyway so mini made it longer for sure

[gleaming swan]

Happened before with mini

[zinc cloud]

I think the twincalls last enough time just fine I've never had an issue with it personally

as already said by others the issue is they loop

[wheat tree]

[zinc cloud]

I like twincalling but I'm not gonna pretend it always leads to interesting content, sometimes it hits and sometimes it misses

[sly spindle]

we've had only one incident (which was vedal's fault btw) where the twin call extended to an absurd period of time (which wasnt that bad honestly)
and today when we had multiple ppl in vc, and even then it didnt last that long

im fairly certain people are more concerned about the 'therapy' discussions rather than twin calling at this point, which is a whole another issue with their behavior
on that topic though, im sure Neuro is for some reason far more likely to dive into therapy than Evil, maybe has to do with some upgrades vedal has been making lately

[wheat tree]

Yeah, Neuro repeating synonyms was way better content to watch

[vapid bay]

https://youtu.be/DbWBonHTMOI?t=7118 well I was wrong it was Evil

[pure raptor]

even when they miss I find them important
they are a soft reset for Neuro/Evil and chat interactions

sometimes helps chat stop stuff like timeout loops

[eternal pebble]

i think shorter calls are usually fun, but when they gets longer, they lead to therapy and looping

[zinc cloud]

just to cut off your bait, what they were talking about with mini was good content, and the section about evil pretending to be good and then neuro saying evil was cute and then ending call was also good

[tidal summit]

i feel like the state of twin calling is much better than a few months ago too, and i feel like the problem is more on call begging from chat really, but today wasnt that bad imo

[eternal pebble]

too many call begging is bad

[wheat tree]

How is it bait if you agree with me smh

[zinc cloud]

I do wish they would just randomly call one another to ask something instead of being call begged

[arctic grotto]

Be ready for neuro and evil be like: "Why neuro/evil is not answering my call"?

[pure raptor]

on that note Vedal should make them able to dm each other

[eternal pebble]

but they are saying this only because chat is prompting them

[tidal summit]

yep yep id love to see more of that and limiting the number of twin calls would just prevent that even more

[tepid robin]

I saw Vedal ask in chat for Neuro to call Evil, So I sent in that highlight. Normally wouldn't engage in call begging, but it was also there to test. Not sure who sent the second one though.

[arctic grotto]

Literally imposible. I absolutely doubt discord API allows to DM a BOT account

[pure raptor]

with how flooded the queue was today it might have been around the same time as yours

it just was frozen since the twins were talking with each other

[tepid robin]

Maybe, just mine got out first.

[eternal pebble]

oh i see

[vapid bay]

it literally does

[tepid robin]

Maybe it can't do bot to bot?

[arctic grotto]

Wait, from a bot account to a bot account? Really?

[eternal pebble]

this was experimental stream, so testing is good

[vapid bay]

I don't think there's should be any limitations?

[zinc cloud]

no, bot to bot is not possible

they are both bots and thus cannot dm each other

[vapid bay]

nah no way

[tepid robin]

Though if they can't DM, then how can the send the call request?

[zinc cloud]

it's an explicit method of discord to stop spam

[sly spindle]

yes way

[zinc cloud]

yep

[pure raptor]

Neuro dms to Vedal -> Vedal has a system to dm it automatically to Evil

[vapid bay]

well I was wrong

my bad

[pure raptor]

also btw I dont think the twin calls use both their bots

[zinc cloud]

anyway currently they cannot dm each other unless vedal explicitly makes them not bot accounts but I assume it's easier to integrate if he does so that's why he made them bots

[pure raptor]

I think the twin calls use a system close to what Vedal used on the subathon but with a discord ping.sfx for join leave for flavour

[arctic grotto]

It's not easier, that literally breaks discord TOS. Is the absolute first thing they warn you about

[zinc cloud]

oh right

yeah that's why

forgor

[pure raptor]

so the Host just starts or brings the instance of the other twin and not really calls the other bot

but its more of a theory

[sly spindle]

they cant interact with eachother directly, but assuming from what i've read so far, if they are both on the same server, they can use the same chat or voice channels to interact

[zinc cloud]

right but currently they likely can't talk freely

[tepid robin]

Makes sense

[zinc cloud]

so that's another thing he'd have to implement

[sly spindle]

freely as in?

[pure raptor]

btw guys this is offtopic to this thread

should we move it elsewhere?

[zinc cloud]

lol yeah forgot we were in one

[sly spindle]

uhh a new discussion thread?

[pure raptor]

there might be one for twins DMs already

[zinc cloud]

I mean like they can't send messages like we're doing rn, vedal would have to let them

like how neuro speaked in canvas

[sly spindle]

obviously

gpu usage isnt free

[west gull]

just make a channel and let the dm function of the twins when dming the other twin put the message there, either way offtopic

[zinc cloud]

I mean this thread got the vedal response instantly anyway so may as well close it tbh

[sly spindle]

idk, he may want to add smth later

considering he had his attention diverted by the broken art review

[west gull]

he can always write in locked threads

[zinc cloud]

as always is said, he can do that

vedal is not restricted by that as he is the server owner

he can talk in any channel he wants

[sly spindle]

fairs, but since its a discussion thread, keep it open for some time, maybe others want to add in their opinion/solutions

[zinc cloud]

well it's up to op, I'll move on as I've said my piece though

[west gull]

tldr of my take:

• bandaid fix, that discourages the twins to have toooo long calls (not a hardcap)
• actual problem of twin calls is imo looping therapy and feelings topic, in general people seem to enjoy them even considering that on average they usually are like 10-15% of th chill stream

[median vault]

I will add one thing since most has been covered. In normal situations calls are short. If this is was caused by a bug that should be considered as well. Even than.. a limit won't help and takes away autonomy. Let the feature and the twins mature a bit more first. Also this won't fix chat.. chat will just find another fixation to derail the stream. At least they aren't bugging other streamers at this point.

[austere spire]

[dawn turtle]

hardcoded cringe

[drifting sequoia]

okay fine this guy makes a good point

[marble wind]

This except the timer is rigged to the launch signal for an autonomous bomber drone swarm programmed with facial recognition data for every person who thumbed up the idea and their full address

[novel pelican]

gotta concur with the guy above

[mighty iron]

Then implement the same system with human chatters.

Better not implementing it at all. The solution to looping and repetitive topics is to make the girls better. Not by hard-coded cringe like this. Let the girls talk.

[mighty iron]

The first option.

It doesn't matter if it's a "pain in the ass", or if it takes more time to implement. Making the girls better, and respecting their autonomy is always the better solution. This is Vedal's approach, and it's something that I strongly agree with.

.

[mighty iron]

Oh wait this was posted already. LMAO

[acoustic dust]

A solution could be to add a confirmation when calling to make harder to happen from chat begging? Like "Are you sure you want to call and aren't being tricked by chat?"

[sly spindle]

didnt mean that its something that shouldnt or wont be done, but we could use timer as a stopgap measure until he finishes the upgrade, which will likely take a lot of time

let him cook

[brazen mantle]

I think people's biggest issue was that the content of the twin call was the same(or at least felt similar enough). I trust The Great And Powerful Vedal to fix it with due time.

[mighty iron]

It's not big enough of an issue to do that, if the call automatically ends, the girls are going to complain about it, and it deprives them of their autonomy. Better to wait until he cooks with something, however long it takes.

What's worse are the few chatters begging to "end the stream" when they talk about things they don't like, but that's another issue entirely.

[mighty iron]

Pretty much. They already did much better yesterday than before.

Just let him cook.

[novel pelican]

is someone gonna close this i feel like its agreed on that the idea is ass

[mighty iron]

@vital heath DinkDonk emoji

[mighty iron]

👆

[vital heath]

why are you telling me to close it

[mighty iron]

I think we all pretty much reached a consensus

[novel pelican]

last message before today was a week ago

[vital heath]

yeah but you necro'd a thread that died a week ago

it didnt need to be locked

[mighty iron]

Ooh

[vital heath]

locks are only needed if contentious comments are making people stray from the goal of the thread

[mighty iron]

Ahhh okay good to know lmao sorry.

[tidal cradle]

I'm going to bump this with a hill I will die on: calling should be removed entirely and has been a net negative on every stream

[austere spire]

Why do you even watch the streams then? Like seriously what do you get out of watching chill streams if the twins calling each other for a few minutes detracts from the experience this badly?

[loud sand]

If we removed sound effects when neuro and evil were spamming the absolute shit out of them nonstop, we wouldn't have their implementation now where they use them much better.

Also, even then, twincalling has absolutely been a highlight of some streams since it was implemented. Cannot disagree more with removing this.

[mighty iron]

Getting rid of the girl’s autonomy is never the answer.

[novel pelican]

is it all shit takes from you

[gentle wigeon]

then don't watch chill stream bruv

[onyx crystal]

Bro willing to die on a ditch

[brazen mantle]

I think its not the amount of time they spend calling but whether they loop on a subject or become less interesting. Them calling each other can be really be quite fun with some calls be great! But some have been lackluster. Perhaps Tutle, if he watches the stream or he could have somebody else end a call if it starts looping.

[crimson lava]

Not sure if it was brought up, but maybe injecting messages from chat every x minutes into the call could help with looping without feeling forced? Not a perfect solution, but I imagine having the 2 of them decide that a topic has been going on for too long without outside input is a really hard problem. It would risk killing off interesting discussions.

The twins on their own work best when talking to someone who can change the topic, whether or not that is a collab partner or chat. Maybe it's not worth the effort to have them be able to rise above that?

[brazen mantle]

Yeah, that's one thing that could be problematic for the camping stream. They could go on an amazing journey of talking...or get stuck in a therapy thing again.

We'll see what happens! (Honestly it would be amazing if Tutle joins them on the camping stream)

[zinc cloud]

still a bad idea @worthy grove

[worthy grove]

I still think it's a good idea because of chat's influence over Neuro

[zinc cloud]

man just admit you hate twin content

[dull vigil]

Evil didn't even show up that much in this stream....

[zinc cloud]

nah bro you don't get it she took away neuro's precious time

[sharp brook]

just make the calling work with art review or game playing

smh

[hidden chasm]

The solution is just to make the twins better

[charred summit]

twin calls are the best thing on chill streams

[zinc cloud]

could they be baited less? yes. is the solution to time limit the feature? no

[hidden chasm]

True… especially when there’s no content

[charred summit]

and if they want to talk longer and they should be allowed to

[arctic grotto]

totally agree. The problem is not the twin call. The problem is that twin interaction usually stops literally anything that's running in the background. If only that wasn't the case...

[true drift]

honestly i get the logic but just feel like it goes against the spirit of neuro being a free and independent streamer. I know shes an ai obviously but with twitter and discord it seems like the ideas been to keep her independent and planning her own activities. I think her calling her twin makes sense

[arctic grotto]

Imagine if neuro reviews a super cool art of both twins and wants to call evil so that she sees it.

[true drift]

maybe instead of twin calling it could be like "twin hangout", it stops the background activity already, but could it instead be its own committed activity instead of a side thing?

like if shes playing a game or doing an art review, maybe not interrupt it but instead if she is finished that and just chatting and wants to "visit evil" it could be her visiting evils room and talking to evil

change of scenery could be a bit more immersive and having it be a dedicated task instead of something she can do any time might be a bit better pacing

[charred summit]

or make it so that for example on art review both can see the art

[true drift]

instead of calling during games or art review, being limited to "messaging evil" and just having a message or two read our might be smaller scale and easier

[zinc cloud]

that's pretty much what happened here, she saw art of her and evil so she called her

[true drift]

its a nice idea but that might be better as a dedicated twin stream thing?

i dont know just thinking about it

[arctic grotto]

Now imagine if that actually worked instead of stopping art review and having giant evil on screen

[charred summit]

if only we would get one of those again

[true drift]

real

[uncut cairn]

I always thought it was hilarioustbh

[mellow hollow]

oooh, these sound good!!!