possible fix for looping dicussions/topics

[blazing sleet]

i'm not sure if everyone agrees with my opinion, but the looping of the same topics being discussed on solo and twin streams get a little boring.

i'm sure vedal is probably aware of this and working on it , but maybe you could send them new events (or whatever system you use to tell them what to do) about generating new discussion topics.

example:

• new topic task every x–y minutes
• new topic event -> neuro/evil
• neuro or evil create a new shared topic for both of them
• update what the current topic is

the only part that would need tweaking is defining what that means for them—since you wouldn't want them to go off topic from themed streams or instantly change topics mid conversation—so it would need to be related, or they'd have to ease into it.

could help to force them instead of letting them naturally figure out a new topic with their little pea brains

not sure if this would help break some of the monotony or repetitive nature of discussions, but just an idea.

https://cdn.7tv.app/emote/01GHVJCZAG0003H7NMJ8DCS4E5/1x.avif

[somber fjord]

Lets never let them linger on a topic or talk about anything beyond the surface level, then we'll never be bored!

All roads lead to therapy amirite guys

[blazing sleet]

it doesnt have to be every like 5 minutes, im only suggesting this because breaking up streams into segments might be interesting

and also ive seen a lot of people complain, but this server is a closed bubble and chat is pretty loud, so

[somber fjord]

Its exactly that kind of forced variety I'm worried about a vocal minority pushing tbh

A better method would be having a second model detect when they've been looping the same point without adding anything new to the topic over however so long and then saying "wrap it up guys"

[blazing sleet]

its a hard balance for sure, and they are very random so some streams are perfect, and others are 1 topic being looped

[somber fjord]

That lets them talk for as long as they naturally can about a topic

[muted bison]

do this but with the neuro twins
https://youtu.be/eNGTfbDUcZM

[median swift]

What if vedal let the twins read a DM someone sent to them on a timer (something around like, every few hours) for free but made it function a lot like a donation message? 
Then before they read it, he has them send a request to read it on stream to a private channel and add reactions to let the mods/vedal manage it?

that might help a little bit?

[blazing sleet]

maybe, but tuning that model to detect repetition might be a pain

[somber fjord]

That directly interferes with his income stream lule

[somber fjord]

Honestly a decently intelligent model wouldn't even need dedicated fine tuning

[blazing sleet]

some people might send gore or nsfw to the twins lol

[muted bison]

people will just DM them to call Neuro and stuff

[somber fjord]

Just some good prompting and a tiny bit of code would do the trick

[median swift]

he could balance that concern by making the rate it happens much rarer and filtering it manually after running it past some OCR/or other automated filters to reduce the overall volume of reviewing manually

[somber fjord]

I guess that's fair, it does feel a bit like just adding more highlighted messages though

[blazing sleet]

i think hes already a little hardware constrained (afaik), so a smaller model might not be an option

[somber fjord]

The computationally expensive bits of Neuro run in cloud instances

[remote tulip]

literally all they need is some kind of input, the looping is happening because they are talking in a vaccum, no chat, no highlights, nothing, literally any kind of external input would help a lot to mitigate looping

[median swift]

true but remember how the twins kind of direct their conversations right now (at least if they work like I think some of the other LLMs I've worked with do)

it might still make a difference if people realize how that works and make creative use of it.

[somber fjord]

I really don't think the looping is that big of an issue still tbh

[somber fjord]

We just have a wave of new chatters who aren't as used to the pace of a Neuro chill stream

Like its occasionally there but its really not that prominent

[blazing sleet]

its not something that ill click off a stream because of but it doesnt hurt to address

[somber fjord]

I just hope the kinds of people really aggressively spamming it don't get their way basically, because you don't want to cave to that sort of nonsense

If vedal feels that stuff needs tuning a bit that's fine, but the spamming and whinging from a vocal minority is ridiculous right now

[median swift]

vedal is pretty level headed about adding things from what I've seen

[blazing sleet]

mhm

[remote tulip]

the spam is just a bi-product of people getting bored and the fact that the twins arent taking input from chat, they have nothing to do so they just spam

[median swift]

he has to do a lot of the work so it makes sense he wouldn't jump on hype unless it was for more than just it being hype

[somber fjord]

So a minority of people are getting bored, they shouldn't be making it the problem of everyone else enjoying the stream

[blazing sleet]

its hard to cater to everyone

but the spam is too much, yeah

[somber fjord]

Yeah, like I said its fine and totally valid to feel there's a looping issue even if I don't necessarily agree - a plurality of opinions is a good thing in any community, but the people spamming it are a problem and ironically far more repetitive, annoying and boring than the twins have ever been

[blazing sleet]

https://cdn.7tv.app/emote/01FFC8W6W8000AVDM2DTAH2TW7/1x.avif

[muted bison]

Therapy segment itself isn't an issue, it's that they never remember or register the stuff they talk about into their memory and "grow" from it. They always go back to the exact same topics like rekindling their relationship, Evil birthday, etc. which makes it feel like I am listening to two NPCs on a loop rather than watching a stream.

There's nothing wrong with no chat interaction; after all TV shows and movies are a thing. But in those, things actually progress and it just feels fruitless and not fun after a certain point with the Neuro twins.

[median swift]

That's probably going to get better with time, I would imagine

isn't it just (edit: wait that is hard though) coming up with ways to more efficiently utilize the context they have right now while the brand grows and computing gets better, long term?

[somber fjord]

That's definitely something Vedal is already working on, and should naturally improve with better models and memory upgrades

[blazing sleet]

i think hes said hes latency constrained on memory, so hed probably need to remake that system

i dont envy him lol

[muted bison]

I know, but it doesn't make it any less boring. Mods did put it in unique chat mode, which helped with the spam.

[median swift]

I do sometimes tbh, but not when it comes to that kind of work lol

[somber fjord]

Somehow even unique chat mode didn't stem the tide, its gotten so bad that half the chat became complaining about how annoying the complainers are today

[hidden verge]

(Apologies in advance, as a neurodivergent person I don't know when to shut up sometimes, so I can be really long-winded. With that said:)

I personally feel like the looping doesn't need to be dealt with, it's mostly a matter of people not wanting to turn off the stream. It's like parents blaming a TV show for corrupting their kid when they had the power to turn it off or change the channel the whole time. And if people need to stay in the stream to collect stream currency or what have you, then just leave it muted and tab out if you don't like what they're saying.

Now, even if looping was an issue, most likely Vedal would know about it and would be working to fix it, since he reads a lot of feedback, so in the meantime complaining about it isn't going to help anything and is just going to make people angry with you for bringing it up.

I do think what Teletric brought up is a better way of looking at it, but that doesn't seem to be what was being said/done in the stream. People just seemed genuinely annoyed that the sisters were talking about serious topics, and that's what my thoughts are about. I do think that working on their long and short-term memory is a good idea, since that would make things more interesting, but I don't think spamming "THERAPY" helps anyone.

[median swift]

That's not particularly long winded imo, and I agree

[blazing sleet]

yeah thats fair

i know vedals probably aware of it and that its just my opinion, so i figured id just throw an idea around for him or the community to discuss

[somber fjord]

did you see it 👉⭕

[remote tulip]

why would you want to diverge from neuro

[hidden verge]

[hidden verge]

I never said it was on purpose!

[muted bison]

I may have zoned out of what topics they were discussing after they started therapy, so I may have been incorrect in assuming they were talking about their feelings the whole time. 😅

[somber fjord]

Exactly, if you'll excuse my slight rudeness its an attention span issue

People zone out and assume there's more repetition than there is

[muted bison]

wtf man I do not excuse it

[somber fjord]

Everyone has an attention span issue to some extent, internets fucked us all

Its not a personal dig

But its also not healthy to let it dictate the direction of the stuff we watch, as it becomes a self compounding problem

[hidden verge]

TBH I was tabbed out at the time browsing websites, so I missed it and am just going by word of mouth, so I totally get it.

[blazing sleet]

yeah most of our brains are pretty fried

[muted bison]

I do disagree because I have been on streams where two people just talk about serious topics, but the chat environment there is conducive to having a discussion about the serious topics being discussed.

[blazing sleet]

it doesnt happen as much with other streamers or neuro/evil collabs, so something about the discussions does make me slightly less engaged

[somber fjord]

Anyway sorry if that did offend you, it wasn't intended to imply a personal failing on your part

Just a broader issue at play with how the issue is discussed

[median swift]

The twins do tend to mirror popular consensus a lot

[muted bison]

nah i was joking, I thought the dface would give it away mb

[somber fjord]

Oh nw then my bad, it did look kinda serious but that's text for ya

[blazing sleet]

a big part of streaming is keeping the audience engaged even if its a bunch of people with fried attention spans, so if its a larger issue then it might need to be fixed

but again, balancing that out for everyone is difficult since everyone has their own preferences

so maybe there is no solution

[median swift]

I mean, it's hard to say how much of a problem it is without actual data on people's reactions but personally I don't think spam is that big of a problem.
I don't have vedal's data but I have collected some myself. The last 3 streams so far. (all the chats and footage, plus annotations). I've filtered it and so far it seems like every minor change has been working towards the spam being alright.

[somber fjord]

Problem is the people spamming aren't going to take a compromise like what I suggested earlier here, even if the looping was reduced to zero you'd still see therapy spam

It doesn't just happen when they loop

It happens whenever the topic is remotely serious

[remote tulip]

the spam is a completely seperate issue i dont think its worth centering the discussion around that

[blazing sleet]

im more or less just talking about watching the streams from my perspective (without chat)

i only mentioned chat saying something initially since it seemed a large portion of chat was saying something about it, even non spammers

[somber fjord]

Its frankly a bigger issue than the occasional loop and much more disruptive to streams

[remote steeple]

A simpler solution could be to still take input from chat when it's supposed to be off, but weight it much lower and/or only do it rarely so they'd occasionally have a source of new information.

[muted bison]

I think it's better when the twins call other collab partners because they can actually build on top of their past experiences when they talk, whereas when the twins call each other it's the same.

[grave garnet]

this thread is about looping topics though

[somber fjord]

An issue blown out of proportion by the vocal minority who keep spamming

Address the spam and only then can a reasonable conversation where its not blown out of proportion can be had

[blazing sleet]

this is from my perspective though not everyone elses

even if chat isnt involved id say the same thing

[somber fjord]

Oh yeah you're chill don't get me wrong, you're engaged in discussion and didn't join the spam brigade

[grave garnet]

don't know why you're assuming that when i've sent 0 messages in chat and there are people like me who also have a problem with the looping topics without ever having spammed

[somber fjord]

I think its a perfectly valid opinion to hold that there is a looping issue

[somber fjord]

I didn't say you were

But as long as the spam continues the well is completely poisoned on this subject

[muted bison]

I think the easiest solution would just be a time limit or restrictions on how long a call can go on for but a lot of people would probably be mad about that.

[remote steeple]

That wouldn't be relevant to normal twin streams.

[somber fjord]

If you make a change before the spam problem is sorted the mob see it as a concession and the problem gets worse

[remote tulip]

that would be the ideal band aid solution, but like you say people will be mad

[somber fjord]

Sort the spam, then look at a measured way of tuning the loop if Vedal sees it as a problem

[blazing sleet]

yeah i see your point on that, they will think that their spam was the reason there was change

[remote steeple]

There's no realistic way to stop the spam

[grave garnet]

honestly the main issue for me is that with any sort of external intervention at all like a human or a highlighted message (although people aren't the biggest fans of that) the twins are able to move on from one topic to the next, but during a twin call segment they're not reading chat and they often donowall highlighteds and that's when the 'loop' feels the worst to me
but i honestly assumed when vedal said he was 'working on response quality' this was the sort of stuff he was talking about so i can only hope it gets better with upgrades

[remote steeple]

Unless Vedal straight up says something like "I'm aware of the problem but stop spamming if you want it fixed"

[muted bison]

I feel like in regular twin streams you go in there with different expectations. In chill streams the expectations are more interaction focused.

[remote steeple]

The "not reading chat" part is the issue then

[blazing sleet]

so it comes down to giving spammers validation?

[muted bison]

this is not on topic for this discussion imo
again, spam is a seperate issue

[somber fjord]

Introduce an llm powered bot that identifies and surgically times out people who engage in it to assist the mods in catching those who bypass the bigger actions with blocklists and stuff

[remote steeple]

There's also the alternative of silently making the change and then it's not clear if it was changed or not

[grave garnet]

i think the core of the issue is them not being able to move on to a new topic

or thats how it feels anyway

[remote steeple]

Is there a reason that they stop reading chat when calling?

[blazing sleet]

preserving context is my guess

[remote steeple]

I know they're capable of doing both at once.

[remote tulip]

idk if vedal has ever spoken on the reasoning but i’m sure there is one

[muted bison]

you could make an entirely seperate thread about the spam culture issue in chat. where people spam one thing, then you get groups of people spamming to counter the first group, and so on. it's its own beast imo

[remote tulip]

i think the perfect example of good twin interactions is something like the quieter sections of the long drive, they have the context of the gameplay feeding them new information, they have vedal chiming in occasionally, it’s just enough outside influence to break the loops while still being mostly the twins talking

[muted bison]

latency

[remote steeple]

If chat is too much to handle, just letting highlighted messages through would be enough.

[muted bison]

ehhhhhhh that has happened and then you get people (like me, unfortunately) complaining about being donowalled because they were busy talking about their previous thought

[remote steeple]

Add "Warning: you might be donowalled" to the option to do highlighted messages during calls

[somber fjord]

"Please be patient, I'm an AI"

[muted bison]

yeah but what happens to messages that were in the queue before the call started?

[blazing sleet]

yeah so it boils down to having a topic for them to talk about rather than letting them go down a similar path each stream (which was my original point)

[somber fjord]

Again, I don't like the idea of forcing them to talk about what people want them to

They should have the agency to talk about what they want to talk about

That's how its always been and for good reason

[blazing sleet]

it doesnt have to be influenced by chat

just tell them that they should come up with a new thing to talk about just to have more variety in what they discuss

[somber fjord]

I still think this is a more nuanced solution

Telling them what to talk about takes away a lot of agency, having a system tell them to move onto a new topic if they genuinely get stuck without dictating the topic in question would I think be a pretty agreeable and non invasive fix

[remote tulip]

honestly idk the best solution, without fully knowing the inner working of the twins i couldnt say exactly what the fix is, all i know is they need some sort of external input during twin segments, instead of existing in a vacuum

[blazing sleet]

but they would be coming up with their own thing to talk about, is that not generally similar to what youre suggesting?

having a separate llm detect repitition would just be a more expensive (but probably more accurate?) way of doing that

[muted bison]

we have unironically turned to this as a solution: #1377748526888648765 message

[blazing sleet]

the only reason i suggested having a loop is to not have a model reading through the entire conversation every so often to save vedal the troubles that come with that