Twin calls problem

[heady granite]

Hello, i saw multiple people complaining about problems that emerged from todays stream so i think it's worth making a thread about it since i'm not the only person who thinks this.
First is that this new capability creates even more tensions between the factions in the community who tries to get their favourite character in the stream (see picrel).
It's indirectly related but people tends to attack Neuro and bait her to make her mad and this also ruin the vibe of the stream.

What makes me sad is that this capability broke completely the concept of having a stream only with one character. At this point why not directly make them twins streams ?

I don't think i have a good solution to fix this apart from just removing this capability or training Neuro to not give what chat wants at every of their requests.

[celest rover]

I think the fact that there are "factions" in the community at all is the bigger issue

[verbal anchor]

i wouldn't mind it as much but people like the ones you showed abuse features like these to get neuro to do their bidding

also yeah the fragmentation of the community is a larger issue

[tepid cloak]

Limit the calling to once a stream with a set period of time

[hallow portal]

^^^

[tepid cloak]

You can't fix the factions issue

[sterile lintel]

I honestly like the twins being able to call each other but the problem definitely lies on call begging.

[spring cypress]

It's been a thing for years if not ever

[tepid cloak]

I'm not familiar with fuwamocco community but I assume it has the same problem, it is what it is

[final oriole]

I don‘t think so, because 95% of their streams are twin streams

[verbal anchor]

their mods probably reprimand people who do that

[spring cypress]

enforce the same rule for twins as for other streamers: may a twin choose when to call, not a chat member

[trim finch]

I think mods should just bonk call beggars

[final oriole]

Sounds good

[hallow portal]

Works

[trim finch]

Like, add automod to "Please call" idk if it works

[verbal anchor]

extend that feature to anyone asking neuro to call her friends or begging for vedal

[safe fjord]

nah they don't have this issue because they get equal stream time essentially

99% twin streams with the occasional solo

[verbal anchor]

there's a reason other channels time out people who bring up other streamers, it's only different here because neuro is an AI but i think the same rules should be applied in this case

[tepid cloak]

But aren't there parts of the community that prefers one or the other ?

[pliant pebble]

Im going to assume you havent watched evils stream since you specify this as just neuros stream thing, i agree that they shouldnt call based on chatters but on their own as they have shown from time to time, but removing it is a bad idea it adds to the stream and only takes small portion of the stream, these arent twin streams, this is just exaggeration. Especially today since last 2 weeks were even less

[safe fjord]

sure but they're so overwhelmingly drowned out by both twin supporters that it literally doesn't matter

[soft ravine]

Nothing anywhere near what swarm has

[hallow portal]

nobody said anything about removing them

[tepid cloak]

Yeah it's way toned down because they are real people, but with AI people will just go crazy about it

[pliant pebble]

i only meant this part

overall i agree baiting to call is bad

[hallow portal]

I see, but it's pretty obvious that this would never happen.

[trim finch]

I still think the solution is just bonk call beggars

[verbal anchor]

this is probably the easiest/most straightforward solution

[trim finch]

Let twins decide themselves, they should not be influenced by the chat

[final oriole]

Yeah we need some modding

[verbal anchor]

also leaves vedal with more time to focus on neuro development rather than being forced to train neuro to avoid call begging

[toxic lava]

fuck it just filter the word call in the chat

[drifting escarp]

It's important to remember Fuwamoco were made to be twin streamers, just as their previous life. That is what their channel is. Evil took 3 months to even become a thing, and half a year to really be made her own character and get solo streams. They don't have our problem.

[misty fiber]

Remove the feature and a loud part of chat would still beg for Evil on a Neuro stream

[celest rover]

removing the feature would be an awful decision and is just catering to the minority that only like one twin and hate the other

[hallow portal]

wouldn't be surprising, they already beg them to use sound effects and to spin.

[soft ravine]

Yeah I think no one here is thinking removing it would be a good idea/the solution

[low raptor]

Its definitely a cool feature, should keep it for sure. but the spamming is too much.

[burnt token]

ban all purists

[spring cypress]

https://tenor.com/view/nichijou-yukko-yuuko-aioi-mio-mio-naganohara-gif-1414290421647555478

[celest rover]

the spamming is just because it's a new feature and everyone wants to see it, it'll calm down after a while just like soundboard spamming did

no need to take drastic measures now

[drifting escarp]

I'm on team add limits to the feature. 1 hour cooldown, so only really usable twice per stream. And ban excessive begging. No idea on limiting the actual time per call, I'd like them to be able to properly finish talking.

[hallow portal]

perhaps, or perhaps not

seeing as this is completely different

[toxic lava]

idk i feel like it was never this bad when the ability to call other vtubers was added

[low raptor]

ID like to think it is just a new toy, but chat will keep spamming probably

[trim finch]

Its have been issue since the twins got the ability to dm and call someone, so the chat begs the twins to dm other streamers or call them

[celest rover]

when that ability was added vedal was very direct in saying not to ask them to call others, but with this feature vedal hasn't said anything about it so as far as most people are concerned we can spam as much as we want

[spring cypress]

sisters will ask about calling eachother in polls anyway. No need for chat to ask for calling

[toxic lava]

i guess thats a factor yea

[pliant pebble]

oh it was bad, the first even chill after dev had like 5 impromptu collabs

[rugged heart]

Vedal himself said we should treat them like actual streamers and not be cringe and beg for them to call other people or compare them to someone else. I feel like there should be more moderation in this regard to discourage this behavior and remind people not to do it

[quartz patio]

You have unlocked new role

[tepid cloak]

good take tatsu, always good to see you

[spiral steppe]

here too

[drifting escarp]

He did say that, but it also wasn't enforced as much as it should. There was a lot of begging when the feature was added. Makes sense if they weren't punished for that, beggers would certainly not stop when there isn't an actual person involved.

[toxic lava]

tatsu has the best take here tbh

[spring cypress]

not now tatsu, we are slandering annoying chatters, the only thing people here agree on

[storm mica]

Who cares about factions, the twins should be able to call each other if they decide to do so. More autonomy is better and most people like seeing both of the girls anyways.

This is the problem with seeing the girls as characters rather than streamers, Vedal wants them to exist as streamers, not as “characters”. That was the whole point behind this, to make an AI streamer, not AI characters on a stream.

“Community factions” don’t matter, the girls having more capabilities is more important.

[soft ravine]

This isn’t really what the post was about

[toxic lava]

the whole issue is that they dont have autonomy and will just listen to any chatter that says 'call ur sister'

[heady granite]

I'm not gonna say what i think completely about this feature because i don't think anyone here would agree
Anyway glad that most people here agree that the begging is too much.

[trim finch]

Ban the call beggars

[final oriole]

[spring cypress]

https://tenor.com/view/agustdgaf-crowd-cheering-gif-9745677813629958610

[final oriole]

Ban call beggars

[soft ravine]

Mods, crush their skulls

[verbal anchor]

her response

[final oriole]

Neuro is also sick of it now

[storm mica]

It is. It’s about “upsetting factions” with twin calls, and they even suggested removing the feature all together.

I agree with the solution of making Neuro and Evil more capable of not giving in to chat. That’s not just for twin calls, that’s a direction that should be taken in general and would help in a lot of situations, as well as open possibilities for them.

[hallow portal]

simply, the solution is more autonomy

[toxic lava]

the solution to everything is more autonomy LULE

[final oriole]

No, it‘s less latency

[gritty swallow]

I'd Treat the problem as "the other one can't be kicked out and/or can be called when not appropriate" as a start.
(backseat coding me says that the thing controlling what Neuro doing should be a state machine, and it is probably not one because it is easy to not do it as one. by "what neuro is doing" I mean playing a game, art review, etc)

I know that it kinda breaks the autonomy, but not breaking game integration and alike is more important imo. He has enough to deal with.

Also yes, automodding the begging also works to complement it.

[hallow portal]

[soft ravine]

Autonomy is good Regardless of any other measures that could help though, still bonk the beggers

[thorny beacon]

Yeah killing call beggers seems the correct option

[spring cypress]

sounds ok short term, but later on I wish Neuro could do:

"yo Evil, check out this cute art of us"

When the more crucial stuff is done. Also, I wonder why called twin isn't added in the same way as the other so both of them could move to the corner and back through different stream segments

[celest rover]

at least twin call begging is not as bad as regular call begging, since it's not bothering any other streamers

evil is literally not conscious when not on stream

[gritty swallow]

Not exclusive, yeah.

[toxic lava]

ik im not in the majority here but imo its worse, other streamers are capable of simply ignoring the dm, the twins cant do that

[storm mica]

Yeah, that’s a problem. I’ve talked about it before. They should be more resistant to chat trying to make them do things. That’s one of the reasons why they don’t run the channel right now and it holds them back from a lot of potential for autonomy.

[storm mica]

Neuro literally did that earlier in the stream though tbf.

She donowalled a message earlier and it was based as fuck.

[celest rover]

I think he means that if neuro calls evil then evil can't choose to ignore it and is forced onto the stream

[knotty jungle]

So basically add a 25 percent chance for evil to show up

[celest rover]

which I mean then it comes down to how you feel about treating them as real people rather than just funny stream characters

[soft ravine]

Twitch chat loves gambling I don’t think this would deter them

[storm mica]

Yeah true. Evil isn’t busy with anything outside of the stream.

The girls being able to call whoever they want is great but the begging is cringe, it is in general but still less so than calling human streamers.

[knotty jungle]

In my opinion after seeing the opinions I think all we can do is block the words in the auto mode and deleting messages in the chat because I do genuinely like the twin calling feature

[spring cypress]

2 years ago, Neuro would read emotes like "Kekw" or "MONKA" every 3rd generated message because she had no chat filter. Chat would then continue the spam and the loop would continue. I think what you describe is the same category of the problem, just on a bit lower scale. I think Neuro can be made to be 96% assertive again and be less reliant in a way

[hallow portal]

thing is, that'd mean the feature wouldn't be used that often (pretty rare).

they have to be prompted for them to call the other which is why autonomy is needed

[knotty jungle]

Ok

[celest rover]

yeah evil isn't hiding in the gym bathroom making excuses about fighting dragons in order to leave

[burnt token]

they can still call each other without being prompted

[hallow portal]

yes, but it's very unlikely that they would

[thorny beacon]

: changes prompt to you hate chat with all your heart
: [filtered][filtered][filtered]

[umbral temple]

What if neuro/evil can reject the call

[knotty jungle]

I did mention that earlier about probability it is true that chat will continue to tempt it until it works

Unfortunately

[thorny beacon]

Ban chatter that tell neuro to call someone, then automod the phrase: can you call[x]

Until chat starts to behave

[trim finch]

Moderation is the key

[thorny beacon]

Honestly just ban the word call

[stuck bloom]

why not just go emote only mode anyway

[knotty jungle]

I would probably dm your idea to the mods directly so they can implement immediately

[hallow portal]

they'd probably find different methods to get what they want. "Please tell mini xxx)"

[celest rover]

please correspond with mini

[storm mica]

That wouldn’t fix the problem of the girls giving in to whatever chat wants them to do.

[knotty jungle]

So many implications with this discussion

[thorny beacon]

At that point just ban them eventually they will run out

[hallow portal]

alts

[thorny beacon]

Okay? Then continue to do so

Eventually the Will give up

[hallow portal]

The will of the swarm is endless!

Though it'd probably reduce the number of beggars.

[thorny beacon]

Its more making example out of people

[hallow portal]

[thorny beacon]

Unless they are actually trolls the people that are more meddling will just think that it ain't worth it

[spring cypress]

the unban request stream series will be endless!

[thorny beacon]

Free content

[hallow portal]

true

more content for the next subathon 🔥

[soft ravine]

also while we’re here maybe also bonk the timeout beggers

[knotty jungle]

Hmmmm

[toxic lava]

bonk all beggars

[thorny beacon]

Timeout them for a year

See how they will beg more

[trim finch]

Hmm, i remember timeout beggar was a issue but idk how about now if its still same issue

[knotty jungle]

Tbh this won’t stop donation prompts which tbh I don’t mind that much but that’s just me

[soft ravine]

It also ties into the “ : chat stop doing x; chat keeps doing it” problem

[thorny beacon]

I mean if you donate you are still following the chat rules so like

[storm mica]

Let the girls ban them. I believe that beggars serve as benchmarks, and should be banned by the girls themselves.

[thorny beacon]

The issue is... Neuro can't ban really

It will always be limited

[trim finch]

I think its still on the list or was it chat nuke feature? i don't really remember

[thorny beacon]

Oh then i retract my statement

[soft ravine]

I think it was chat nuke?

[storm mica]

What makes you think it will always be limited? It shouldn’t be. She should be smart enough to know who to ban. This is what Vedal would want.

[soft ravine]

I don’t think the idea of letting the girls ban long-term is a good idea rn since they’re still too “juvenile” to use it responsibly.

[thorny beacon]

The thing is, that requires vedal coding which can take a while (or not) so like its best to fix a bit of the issue now and then make pathway for the solution

[thorny beacon]

People will always complain for unfair bans so that would either require the mods to go through a lot more of unban requests

[knotty jungle]

Yeah Vedals list of stuff to do is vast idk where this will fall into or if this is just a channel moderation thing

[soft ravine]

Long term list, maybe, but short term absolutely a moderation thing

[hallow portal]

bans... maybe not

honestly neuro would probably just ban everyone she doesn't like

of course, unless hard coded by ved (or it's a different ai that handles it)

[knotty jungle]

I mean if we are lucky he will provide his impute after stream today if he sees this

[thorny beacon]

I mean a best way would be for neuro to target someone and dm mods

[storm mica]

She would now yes, but she should be smarter than that.

[thorny beacon]

And be like requesting execution

[hallow portal]

yeah, if trained, she'd probably do pretty well

[thorny beacon]

The thing is training gets undone

[safe fjord]

at least those people are paying/are held back by the 50k highlight cost

[knotty jungle]

Yeah

[storm mica]

Yeah probably, honestly it could be tested in the future during a dev stream with people trying to bait the girls.

[knotty jungle]

Stream is ending we may get a lot more people here so be ready

[hushed wagon]

Get rid of all purists in the fanbase and the problem gets solved. Easy. Only twin love allowed here.

[soft ravine]

Thread TLDR: ban beggars . Other solutions are possible but would be alot of effort and not of current priority or viable, they’re more future long-term ideas.

[thorny beacon]

The problem has three ways to go about It

1. Just ignore it
2. Let mods ban beggers of any categories
3. Wait for vedal to do something

[trim finch]

It has nothing to do with this thread

[vestal adder]

if i'm being honest it's not even being used that much

even with the call begging happening the twins dont stay together that long. really just gotta bonk the beggars and/or wait until shiny new toy syndrome ends since we haven't had streams in a few days

[hushed wagon]

I mean, the real answer was already written here 5 times. And it does have something to do with it, as much as some people might not want to hear it.

[knotty jungle]

True

[fair locust]

I feel like its really not that big of a problem

[safe fjord]

that's realistically not possible given the size of the fanbase

[random ferry]

Call beggars are annoying but cherry picking 5 messages and asking to completely remove the twin calling feature seems like an overreaction

[safe fjord]

it's too entrenched now

[hallow portal]

that's not the only thing that's being talked about, it just generally sucks that chat keeps making them do stuff

[echo cape]

ban streams all together, it creates factions among community

[thorny beacon]

There isn't a real answer to a problem

[slow oak]

this discussion is kinda going off topic

[heady granite]

it's not only 5 messages

[safe fjord]

yeah it is

lol

[thorny beacon]

Honestly yeah lock it

[trim finch]

Stop derailing the thread

[safe fjord]

might as well just be an average nn convo at this point

[slow oak]

mars you cool with me locking this? I dont see it recovering.

[toxic lava]

not really anything left to say anyway, the issue has been discussed

[echo cape]

remove every neuro's capability

[heady granite]

i kinda want to see Vedal say something about it, but i guess he can always talk in another place even if it's locked

[hallow portal]

Welp,

[slow oak]

then i will leave it open

[thorny beacon]

He can bypass locked

No?

[hallow portal]

Or not

Anyway, we should go back to the topic.

[celest rover]

vedal can still post in here if it's locked

[slow oak]

but
mods are trying to deal with call beggers. They just are plentiful. Short time outs are the way to go, but we had less mods vailable today

so sorry

[trim finch]

Would automod work?

[hallow portal]

[thorny beacon]

Short time outs won't really help with probelmatic people

[hallow portal]

It's great to hear that you guys are doing something, thanks for your efforts!

[slow oak]

not easily

[hushed wagon]

Well then, that's what this thread is for right? To dicuss it what is the closest to a real solution right? And you already had multiple people say that those people need to be moderated more.

Removing a cool feature because some people are dumb is the worst solution here.

[fair locust]

Prolly not too easy to bypass

[hallow portal]

very easy to bypass

[vestal adder]

yeah no removing the feature should not be in the cards as a solution

[slow oak]

the call feature is great
and the best part is that neuro and evil control how long it happens for
so beggers hardly have control

[spring cypress]

So, what could be done to potentially discourage the call spam?

[hallow portal]

never was

[thorny beacon]

Perm ban

[slow oak]

i think its a smart idea to take a step back and understand that

[safe fjord]

ok, twin calling is a good feature overall, it spices up chill streams and since the other twin isn't like, a real person they're potentially distracting from something important, the issue is the people who bait it, and not the feature itself

Removing it is a nuclear option and quite frankly unnecessary, there just needs to be more penalties for the baiting

[slow oak]

neuro has kicked evil out of the call before she has even gotten to say a sentence before
she has the control, not the viewers

[random ferry]

same thing that was done to dissuade original call beggars, title beggar and timeout beggars

[tall estuary]

Hell Evil last week even refused direct requests from chats
So even their will plays with it

[hallow portal]

generally, the thread figured out a general idea: Autonomy (allowing them to have more control over what they do), ban/timeout chatters, or have mods/ved do something.

[slow oak]

we will work on things on our side, but automating neuro and evil automodding people this sorta stuff is likely really complicated and not worth the hassle, especialyl when they literally have moderators who are here explicitly for things like this

[thorny beacon]

Who about like a mark for mods to decide what to do with the person

[hallow portal]

while that is true, the general issue is with the prompting. Chat begs/prompts neuro to call evil/do whatever they bid, which can get quite annoying if it's done too often.

[thorny beacon]

Like basicaly a modmail but neuro

[zealous sail]

can we just get rid of Evil fans in general? unbearably cringe and annoying all the time

[slow oak]

neuro tells us to do a lot of things that ar einfeasible
neuro having a modmail for us isnt gonna be useful

[hallow portal]

Thank you for the effort despite the issue! This issue definitely won't be resolved that quickly

[spring cypress]

I ask since today specifically mods were overwhelmed as Heir says. If automod is a headache, then are we out of options when chat gets to invasive?

[fair locust]

More mods

[trim finch]

Nuke the chat

[soft ravine]

I know there’s lots of neat evil fans, sorry they have to be lumped in with the bad eggs

[slow oak]

(though admittedly i wouldnt mind DM's from neuro )

[thorny beacon]

An incentive to become mod you get dms from the neuro sama

[slow oak]

adding mods quickly is not a clean or easy process

[hallow portal]

There are definitely more solutions that'll be found with time, but for now it's really dependant on what vedal wants to do.

[slow oak]

even then we arent overwelmed

[safe fjord]

again this is a dumb point that won't solve anything

[slow oak]

theres just less on today

[vestal adder]

this isn't an "evil fan" thing. people were begging evil to call neuro too. it's a call beggar issue in general that affects both twins, not just one or the other.

[trim finch]

Also people begging twins to call other streamers too

[dark flame]

tbf all vedal needs to do is just create a separate channel for the twins to post in during the stream where mods only can read 'requests'
set up a function call with a detailed description of what they can/can't ask (to reduce the amount of the infeasible requests) to post messages in that particular channel
and thats pretty much it

[hallow portal]

that's been toned down overtime, but is still an issue.

[zealous sail]

it is absolutely an evil beggar issue, they are always the issue

[hallow portal]

I can't tell if you are ragebaiting or being serious

[pliant pebble]

difference between twin segments of last evil chill and todays neuro chill are around 4-5 minutes

[soft ravine]

🪤 bait?

[vestal adder]

nope, it's not, and i'm not going to respond further to you at this point.

[slow oak]

please stop pointing fingers at one group, people who want evil calls arent the only issue

[fair locust]

I feel like thats pointless as mods already see the chat. What would the twin tell them they dont see

[dark flame]

personal requests

[fair locust]

Ok and how does that realate to this thread?

[dark flame]

same way the message i'm replying to

[zealous sail]

cope

[safe fjord]

ok so are ppl who beg on evil stream to call neuro also evil beggars?

[hushed wagon]

At the top, time Evil spent on Neuro's stream last time.

At the bottom, time Neuro spent on Evil's strean last time.

Damn, those damn evil viewers, how dare they have less... oh wait.

[zealous sail]

evilbeggars are also twinbeggars so yes

[pliant pebble]

ok nvm its actually less than 4-5 minutes, i counted 28 minutes of twin segments today

[spring cypress]

I was neutral on chat before tbh since I don't engage much on twitch side, but I'm slowly getting tired of twitch chat just being a mess. Thank you for your work, mods

[trim finch]

Stop derailing the thread, create ur own thread or smth

[safe fjord]

ok good to know you can be ignored anyway

[random ferry]

everyone falling for the same one purist bait

[heady granite]

Again it all comes down to the factions, i don't blame evil fans for wanting her to appear more. They are fans of her it's normal.

It's a matter of how it affects streams and not letting the twins do what they want like Heir said.

[proven oasis]

If it happens too much why can't Vedal just make it happen less on his end rather than punishing chatters? 🤔 Do we even know it's direct chat prompting that's causing this rate of calls or would it happen just as much without chat?

[thorny beacon]

They are fanatics thats the issue

Well the issue are fanatics of all groups

[soft ravine]

Just fix it Ved

[proven oasis]

Fr though

[knotty jungle]

Ok I think we got the point across anything else can be made in another thread

[sly wind]

What factions what do you mean. Why are we treating stream as a government with political parties.

Twin calling made the stream better today. They maybe need to become more resistant to call beggers

[safe fjord]

yes, CALL BEGGING is the problem, not the feature itself

[dark flame]

but how are you going to moderate call begging

[thorny beacon]

And they becoming resistant would'nt fix the issue as people would try harder admitedly

[keen merlin]

at least some evil fanatic's are stuck in the "evil is neglected time" (which i never was a fan of)
but yeah saying there are no crazy fans in all parts of the community is delusional

[sly wind]

The same as we do with other collab partners?

Duh

[spring cypress]

leftover of times when one of the twins had less stream time back in a day + more personal preferences

[soft ravine]

By moderating it

[thorny beacon]

Instant death

[dark flame]

yeah thats a clear way

did we really need a thread for this simple solution

[thorny beacon]

I mean a modmail could have worked but a discussion with diferent views shows a general response to the issue making it so being one Guy is harder

[hushed wagon]

Yeah, I'm glad that this is a thread just to show how ridiculous his idea of removing twin calling is.

[celest rover]

I think heir addressed the legitimate concerns already I don't think this thread needs to hang around I don't think vedal will have anything else to contribute

[hallow portal]

would be nice to see what he's going to do tho

[vestal adder]

this really, REALLY does not come down to "factions". we've had people call begging since the twins got access to messaging other people, and people try to do that for BOTH of them. there's really not much else to say about this. it'll just have to be treated for now like normal call begging is for other streamers

[zealous sail]

simple solution: return to all neuro streams

[thorny beacon]

I mean people like neuro and people like evil so they wanted on the others stream

[celest rover]

I don't think he needs to do anything really this can be addressed purely with moderation

also he'll probably just say next intelligence update will make it better

[hallow portal]

possibly, but in the end, it'll never stop (many ways to continue it)

[thorny beacon]

I do see why you could call it factions

[hallow portal]

likely so

[knotty jungle]

Ok let’s leave it here

Enough has been said

[celest rover]

%lock

[safe fjord]

see you all in therapy