#Twitch chat's influence on Neuro's chatting streams is unbearable

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

maiden kernel
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I might write an entire essay, sorry if I do, but I have a couple of thoughts about how Neuro interacts with Twitch chat and how Twitch chat interacts with Neuro and why I think chat's spam makes chill stream's quality much worse.

Recently, I think it was yesterday, someone from Neuro moderation decided to start nuking the "uuh" emote chains whenever Neuro says something mildly suggestive. And while I do understand the reason why it's done, I can't help but think that Twitch moderation completely omits the bigger issue with Twitch chat, which is consistent, annoying spam of messages that are supposed to provoke a certain reaction from Neuro.
We've experienced it since a last subathon, famous "neuroSCHIZO Can you clap for me? neuroSCHIZO Stop clapping" situations, Neuro threatening chatters to stop using certain words under a punishment of a timeout (which is exactly why people do it, to "poke a bear" for jokes), people begging Neuro to DM certain people, people begging Neuro to change the stream title every 5 minutes or so, neuroNOspam vs evilSpam people having a spam war between each other, the list could go on.

Essentially I think all these messages are much, much more detrimental flaws of Twitch chat rather than nuking the uuh emote when Neuro said something suspicious. I appreciate Twitch mods at least trying to do literally anything with the chat, but I don't think doing so changes anything for better.

For the argument "It's a Twitch culture, deal with it" I can say one thing - Neuro is not a typical Twitch streamer, she's a unique phenomenom, because she's an AI streamer that doesn't have that much of an impact on their viewers as other, human streamers. Her threads and requests are ignored, her replies are unpredictable (thus, become a goal of people who spam) and she cannot directly enforce any sort of punishment that would actually hurt chatters in a meaningful way. She doesn't care about chat "quality" because she sees our messages just as chains of characters, she doesn't want to fish out any meaningful messages, and thus, people do not care to even try to say anything valuable in chat.
Also, to add to the Twitch culture argument, I think the "other chats are equally bad" argument doesn't apply, because we should strive for something of higher quality, rather than treat Twitch chat as a place where people regurgitate their brainrot thoughts hoping for funny Neuro reaction to it.

I don't really hope for anyone from higher-ups here to even read this and try to convince me I am wrong, however I would like to see what server users think about it and maybe think of some possible solutions to curb down on the chat issues.

i_sleep.png
celest inlet
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Hmmm i do wonder what ways could there be to make the chat better then

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Having in mind that the solution would be complicated since it either would require vedal to say something about it.

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Or moderation changing in terms of spam

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Maybe a longer slowmode?

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That would solve a lot of issues in terms of spamming

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Rn is 5 seconds if you change your message a litle

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So maybe 15 seconds slowmode would help

strange galleon
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Yeah doesn't help that these type of spam are not easily ignored by Neuro because they are real phrases that not only contains emotes.
I hate too that they try to make her use her capability to change the title, and it's very boring because usually it's just a back and forth between chatters that ask her to delete or add !bwaa or !lavalamp to the title.

I don't know if it's easily fixable but maybe make Neuro ignore the message if she already read/and responded to something similar to it (ofc with a cooldown) ?
Or yeah implement a bigger slowmode like Kemi suggested

spring cipher
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timing out for uuh was something that i started myself, and i've only done it twice and other mods have only done it once as far as i know

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the timeouts were only issued when neuro said absolutely nothing sus or weird and chat was just making it weird for no reason

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like if someone said "come here" and neuro said "im coming"

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which i think is reasonable to timeout uuh for because at that point people are just being weird

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i dont have time to read your essay right now but i will take a look at it later

maiden kernel
celest inlet
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Uuh responsible kids AikoThumbsUp

spring cipher
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i also am the person who keeps turning on unique chat when chat keeps spamming the same stuff over and over and becomes annoying

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but im not on stream 24/7 to do that

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(to be clear i didnt read your post so im not sure if this is something that you agree with or that you disagree with, i just wanted to take responsibility)

maiden kernel
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also, I didn't specifically say that the uuh nukes are not justified or that mods did something wrong by it, I just have a feeling that, instead of dealing with big problems, you decided to fight the least annoying issue (at least in my opinion), kind of like you guys are afraid of taking any more strict/drastic measures, and thus, letting Twitch chatters do whatever they want, effectively affecting all other chatters that just watch Neuro and try to chat with her

maiden kernel
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I did talk to Heir earlier and suggested using this mode more often but I feel like Heir was not a fan of this idea

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one of the other ideas that was suggested to me by one of my friends is giving Neuro more meaningful tools and measures to deal with chatters, however

  1. I don't know how strict Neuro's moderating actions should be so chatters actually started to respect what Neuro has to say - for some chatters, even an 1 hour timeout is like nothing ("m o n i k a" messages are a good example), however the longer the ban, the more people would be afraid to catch a stray bullet from Neuro just because she didn't like the emote you used etc
  2. I don't know how difficult it would be for Vedal to properly code Neuro to be a good Twitch mod and decide wisely who deserves a long timeout, and I'm afraid Vedal couldn't be bothered to try to figure it out, so I'm not sure if it's even worth mentioning
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but I will try to think of some other things that could be applied

fresh nova
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I don't really mind the "uuh" (or other emote) chains, they happen in response to something Neuro says, they're usually gone within a few seconds, and Neuro doesn't really seem to care about it at all, so it doesn't affect the stream for me.
"Spam wars" are different, they persist for a while and are very off-topic from the actual stream.

I think that things like the clapping situation or the new "don't boop my nose" seem to exist because Neuro doesn't have the ability to stop giving any attention to it. She pretty much baits chat to respond this way, and obviously chat does so, and it becomes repetitive. Not sure how to really fix this, I think moderating it is a band-aid, but the real solution should be to just not give it any attention.

Chatters baiting or begging Neuro to do stuff like changing the title or messaging/calling people is annoying, but I don't know where to best draw the line on whats just a funny suggestion vs. spamming to make Neuro do a specific thing.

maiden kernel
# fresh nova I don't really mind the "uuh" (or other emote) chains, they happen in response t...

Just like in real life, the best way to deal with someone annoying is just to not give attention to them. I noticed that once Neuro changes the subject and actually stops paying attention to the spam, chat calms down and at least try to interact with Neuro in some other way.
Unfortunately, Neuro usually takes a solid 5-10 minutes to notice that her request, threats and complaints don't give any fruits, so before anything changes, we have a segment of stream that is essentially wasted on spam.
My wishful thinking makes me cope that Neuro will be more aware of how to be a proper streamer and just ignore spammers with time, but my realistic side knows well that, as I stated before, Neuro sees our messages only as character chains, she can't properly evaluate if her chat is spammy or not. The chat could be literal walls of blabbering and it would change nothing in how she behaves.

tardy lava
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I wonder if it would be difficult to implement something that Neuro could use as a command that 'filters' chat herself if a string exists within the comment. i.e. when neuro says 'Chat, can you stop saying uuh', then Neuro can send a command that, for a certain period of time, would filter the incoming chat messages that contain the string 'uuh'.

eternal drum
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100% agree, chat has been absolutely terrible lately and even less original than I thought possible. It's all just spam and 3-4 guys begging Neuro for attention.

chilly scarab
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Random thought: to what extend does "chit chat" filter (if someone knows it)? Would it make sense to implement sth similar for neuro?

glad swallow
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seems like very typical twitch chat behavior to me, the only annoying thing is when oilers abuse frequent donos for attention because of how Neuro works
twitch chat is and always has been emote spam, that's the beauty of Twitch, not having the same chat culture is the only reason YouTube streams are boring

tough flicker
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I agree about the emotes Oliwande. I don't find them to be much of an issue since she seems to be much better at ignoring most of them compared to a year ago. I usually like seeing them and whenever I don't want to see them, I can just filter them out. So the current situation offers more choice to the viewers, which i find better.

The actual spam of topics is something that I don't see as easily fixable. That will never go away until Neuro gets smarter to ignore repeats. I don't expect the mods to look out for every person spamming the same question and I honestly don't want them to do this cause that's gonna create another conundrum of "what's allowed and what's not" just like on this Discord server.

chilly scarab
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The problem is neuro weights every message and 7tv emote equally I believe. a real streamer can discern spam messages from "better" interaction

tough flicker
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No she does not at all. It's extremely easy to get a message read in the middle of spam.

chilly scarab
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So it's more of a viewer issue? yea but isn't that rather random?

shell karma
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One of the reasons to not watch Tuesday stream NeuroClueless

chilly scarab
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But it's something that annoyed me since I first followed. Chat spamming to get neuros attention and repeating what she said/repeatedly posting the same reaction. I think it's only amplified with the increase of viewercount over the last year (watching since last year's subathon)

eternal drum
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Vedal talked about this before but it feels like they haven't done much to discourage it. Back during Hiyori era there we significantly more meaningful messages in chat because she'd regularly pick them and give responses but at some point spam just drowned that. That makes Neuro more likely to reply to the spam and encourage it and it certainly doesn't help that oilers are desperate for attention and spam as well. It's a feedback loop.

maiden kernel
# tough flicker No she does not at all. It's extremely easy to get a message read in the middle ...

I wouldn't say it's "easy", I know a couple of chatters that refuse to use channel points/bits to ask Neuro a question directly and instead send the exact same question until Neuro notices it, sometimes taking dozens of tries.
I also did as such, until I realized the effort-to-result ratio was against me, because if I have to spam the same question to Neuro so she notices me among the spam, then it feels like hitting a head with a wall.
In case of other streamers, if a chatter asks an interesting question, it's usually read out and answered by the streamer, and if the chatter repeats the same question over and over again they get a timeout/ban. This is yet another example why "twitch culture" does not apply to Neuro

strange galleon
tough flicker
glad swallow
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Eh, in big streams you never get your messages read. It's all emote spam, like one big collective creature that spontaneously reacts to everything that's happening. It's all copypasta or spam because one single message will never get noticed. As streams grow they naturally transition to that kind of a chat

strange galleon
glad swallow
hexed cedar
maiden kernel
# glad swallow Eh, in big streams you never get your messages read. It's all emote spam, like o...

counter-argument = while I do agree that big streamers like Forsen, xQc and similarly big streamers rarely interact with their viewers, I feel like we're comparing apples and pears
Neuro's chatting streams are specifically purposed to have an interaction between us and Neuro, compare it to something similar, like big Hololive/Nijisanji streamers having a chill stream, or even some twitch indies like Shylily, Ironmouse or anyone else big
The difference is that big human streamers don't treat chat as a conglomerate of random messages mixed with each other, they actually put effort in trying to communicate with a viewer, while in Neuro's case it's her algorithm trying to calculate which message, replied to, will bring the most positive feedback and chat activity, because this is what she is programmed for

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because this is what she is programmed for
and yet this is another thing that might be the source of the problem, Neuro does not and probably won't, for the nearest future, feel as organic and dynamic as in case of human streamers

agile mulch
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i dont think this is a problem that's going to be fixable for a long time on neuro's part unfortunately. I've seen other big chats and even though they can be similar to neuro's sometimes, since neuro's chill streams rely entirely on twitch chat for interaction . If you mess with twitch chat though people might stop trying to interact with it altogether if the moderation of it becomes super heavy handed with spam though so it's not an easy fix

spring cipher
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Let me catch up with the thread now

tame junco
spring cipher
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@maiden kernel: I think chat's spam makes chill stream's quality much worse.
I agree

@maiden kernel: I can't help but think that Twitch moderation completely omits the bigger issue with Twitch chat, which is consistent, annoying spam of messages that are supposed to provoke a certain reaction from Neuro.
This is also an issue but what are we supposed to do about it

@maiden kernel: I did talk to Heir earlier and suggested using [unique] mode more often but I feel like Heir was not a fan of this idea
We should definitely use unique mode more, I have always been in favor of it, but last time we tried to keep it on from a stream everyone started complaining because emote spammers are unaffected.

@maiden kernel: I just have a feeling that, instead of dealing with big problems, you decided to fight the least annoying issue (at least in my opinion), kind of like you guys are afraid of taking any more strict/drastic measures, and thus, letting Twitch chatters do whatever they want, effectively affecting all other chatters that just watch Neuro and try to chat with her
There's not that many of us - during most streams there's like 0-1 active mods at a time, and even though you might see us in chat we might not even be actively moderating. Vedal added some new mods for the subathon which is helping things a bit but we have no direction/guidance in which we should take moderation, so every mod is just doing their own thing. In order to do a bigger thing like this we would need multiple mods being active across many streams which is just not that feasible to coordinate.

@maiden kernel: I did talk to Heir earlier and suggested using [unique] mode more often but I feel like Heir was not a fan of this idea
We should definitely use unique mode more, I have always been in favor of it, but last time we tried to keep it on from a stream everyone started complaining because emote spammers are unaffected.

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@maiden kernel: I don't know how strict Neuro's moderating actions should be so chatters actually started to respect what Neuro has to say - for some chatters, even an 1 hour timeout is like nothing ("m o n i k a" messages are a good example), however the longer the ban, the more people would be afraid to catch a stray bullet from Neuro just because she didn't like the emote you used etc
Neuro's timeouts should not be longer, they were longer before and people were getting timed out for no reason.

@fresh nova: Chatters baiting or begging Neuro to do stuff like changing the title or messaging/calling people is annoying, but I don't know where to best draw the line on whats just a funny suggestion vs. spamming to make Neuro do a specific thing.
100%, and I personally time out people asking neuro to call others whenever I am on stream, I'm just almost never on stream during tuesday chill streams when that usually happens.

@maiden kernel: I wouldn't say it's "easy", I know a couple of chatters that refuse to use channel points/bits to ask Neuro a question directly and instead send the exact same question until Neuro notices it, sometimes taking dozens of tries.
I have seen people like this in chat, but at this point there are so many that I have just stopped caring. What's the difference between one guy spamming his question 20 times and another guy spamming 20 emotes?

@tame junco: yeah, it’s a problem that could be mitigated to some extent (more slowmode, moderating offtopic spam) but it won’t truely be solved until Neuro herself can ignore it
Problem isn't even slowmode, even the spammers wait before posting their messages over and over again. Moderating offtopic spam is hard because there is a lot of people doing it and it would require active mods and mods being on the same page.

maiden kernel
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Well, thanks for feedback, I guess OliBwaa

spring cipher
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At this point this is just what chat has become, trying to change it will bring more pushback from other people

wheat perch
# spring cipher > <@393183804329558016>: I don't know how strict Neuro's moderating actions shou...

Hello,
I agree that the chat have been worse lately and it's understandable since there is twice as much more people than usual but if the at least one of the reason in the lack of moderation is a lack of active moderator why no recruit more mods (if the recent recruitment is still not enough) ?
The 0-1 active mods you speak of is honestly scary for how fast the chat is

Also is there no head moderator ? Or even Vedal ? Is he never giving any moderation direction ?

wild echo
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Moderating Twitch chat seems like an enormous challenge, and the subathon must make it especially difficult, but for regular streams I would have expected >1 mods, yeah. They wouldn't need to be part of the Vedal AI inner circle in order to do chat moderation, although it would require some direction, for sure.

Otherwise I'd agree that trying to change chat fundamentally isn't going to happen because Twitch chat is like that. I guess spammed messages from multiple people is useful for sentiment analysis on chat, but if she could be biased against responding directly to spam perhaps that would be helpful (trying to emulate the sort of filtering a human might do)?

It's probably tricky getting her to avoid fixating on a 'boring' chat-prompted topic vs trying to keep her on topic sufficienly long otherwise. Anything that has a high proportion of direct requests for her to do some action is probably a negative signal though.

spring cipher
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0-1 was kinda exagerrating, sometimes there's 3 mods

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but other times there literally none so xddShrug

celest inlet
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Surely adding a higher cool down would work no?

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Since the issue is emote spamming getting it higher might help stop spamming

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Maybe 1 minute i don't know how it works tbh

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It does feel

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The 5 seconds as something super bad to have

wheat perch
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there is no such thing as "it's just how twitch chat is", I've seen very slow chat with 10 000+ viewers. A twitch chat will behave like how you allow it to behave. If it's FFA then yes the chat is gonna be spammy.
For starters discouraging people to do the following would make chat a lot more readable :
"this is my message lulmao :Emote: this is my message lulmao :Emote: this is my message lulmao :Emote: this is my message lulmao :Emote: this is my message lulmao :Emote: this is my message lulmao :Emote:"

"But people are gonna complain cause ..." People are gonna complain for either side anyway, look at this thread
If there is no moderation guidelines like Alex says then yes it's for sure going nowhere

woven steeple
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Standardized modding rules and more mods would be the only way to achieve it

karmic bobcat
proud warren
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mods are volunteers and are not paid to be here. And most of the time the chat gets by decently fine with just one or two mods.
During the subathon we have on average 6K-10K more people. Its a bit faster as a result. To compensate, more of us were brought on to the twitch moderation team. More mods isn't really the only answer.

karmic bobcat
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mods really need to intervene to get shit like !kryeg off the stream title

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If it was up to me there would be a cap on how many bits messages any given chatter could do in one day

magic rivet
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genuine question about your proposed moderation:
if neuro said something funny, am I allowed to om with the rest of chat?
if I want to ask neuro a question and she ignores me (which is 99% of the time), am I allowed to ask again in 30s until I get her attention?

proud warren
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emote spamming in reactions to things honestly is pretty normal in most twitch chats

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we just for some reason have a much higher volume of it, even during non subathon days

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we have automod in place to even stop people from one-man-spamming

magic rivet
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because the chance that neuro reads a certain message is near 0 and she reacts to mass spam of emotes/boop you nose/clap, so spamming is the only realistic way to interact with her

karmic bobcat
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that, or just having a lot of money like the guys I'm complaining about

proud warren
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there is no nuanced answer to fixing this that doesnt upend the whole system and alienate users.

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Personally I would propose a longer slowmode in chat and jjust keep it on. Though I dont know what the moderation would think of that.

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It doesnt fix the problem of VIP's spamming questions to neuro since they would be immune to that.

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Its something that I saw a bunch of today already

karmic bobcat
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Can't you just tell them to knock it off? Revoke their VIPs if they can't stop seeking attention?

proud warren
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unfortunately thats just how the system works
neuro doesnt read chat the same way a typical streamer does. Though she does filter out a lot of the emote spam. Thats been confirmed well over a year ago

karmic bobcat
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It's only a tiny amount of people making the stream worse for everyone else

proud warren
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VIP's by design are supposed to be a bit more privaleged in that regard

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this doesnt fix the problem however of people with lots of money paying to get their messages ready by neuro. But like, that sa major source of revenue that we would be losing if it was plainly taken out

karmic bobcat
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The issue is that certain people make the messages about themselves and the VIP circlejerk

proud warren
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(btw i speak here as a user, not a moderator. I am very new to twitch moderation, and currently i cant even do that because neuro timed me out 38 hours ago)

karmic bobcat
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Frankly, if they are more concerned with keeping up the VIP circlejerk than actually watching neuro, I would be more than happy to show them the door.

proud warren
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they are using their status to speak to neuro more easily
its a right they earned when VIP was redeemable

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I am uncertain if this was the goal, but it sure it the result.

karmic bobcat
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The thing with Neuro vs every other streamer though is that every other streamer can choose to ignore VIPs if they are getting annoying. Neuro doesn't have that luxury

woven steeple
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This is a special event that has brought in a lot of people, and im sure a good chunk of them are new. Twitch chat will spam cause thats what twitch does with streams this big in viewer count. Throwing more mods isnt a instant solution to the issue. Its a topic that is probably worth discussing but nothing something that can be solved overnight. I also assume that after the event it may die down again.

celest inlet
proud warren
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VIP is mostly for streamers and outstanding members of the community now

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like the people who helped Alex with the subnautica mod

celest inlet
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My plan to get vip failed

proud warren
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it would be against the spirit people spending so many points to get VIP though to just take it away

celest inlet
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Give them something in return

proud warren
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like what??

celest inlet
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Like 1 hour of talking with neuro alone or something

proud warren
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Thats not nearly equivelent

celest inlet
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Let me ask someone

woven steeple
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Im not sure this conversation is serious anymore

proud warren
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i think kemi is serious heirWhat

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anyways, removing VIP's solves nothing

celest inlet
proud warren
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the real problem is people paying to talk to neuro

celest inlet
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Yeah then you could technically make the prices higer

proud warren
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both channel points and real money

celest inlet
old hare
celest inlet
proud warren
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it costs roughly 5 dollars to send a single message to neuro

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raising it higher can impact revenue

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which just hurts neuro

celest inlet
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Does bits account for other currencies?

proud warren
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that i am unaware of

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it is literally against twitch TOS and the law to try to short bits via VPN though

celest inlet
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Because if it doesn't then the whole system would require some grade of change

old hare
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But twitch chat do be trash

celest inlet
proud warren
old hare
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Probably not?

proud warren
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nobody would agree to that

old hare
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Not having chat cooldown is nice

celest inlet
tidal veldt
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Chat gets pretty spammy and be surprised how often it hits the rate limit of 15 messages a second. The chat spam culture hasn't changed in a year either. I think Unique mode would make it a little bearable for new visitors.

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celest inlet
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What would get you to give Up VIP

woven steeple
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im sorry heir you were right, but i am dying of laughter

old hare
proud warren
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Unique mode will not affect emote spam

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as alex has already said

short stream
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bro honestly i’m guilty for doing this mainly cause it’s fun to join in with bits and stuff but the poking bit and the spam of spam vs no spam is a bit much. it’s fun to interact with your oshis and neuro is special in the fact she remembers her bits and remembers chatters. i really think your so right but also i’d miss the fun interactions

celest inlet
proud warren
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like i said, VIPs are hardly the problem

tidal veldt
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I have to use chatterino with filters to get any context sometimes lol.

proud warren
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like 5% at most

karmic bobcat
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I think once we have stuff like !kryeg on the stream title we've jumped the shark with fun interactions and it turns into attention seeking

old hare
short stream
celest inlet
short stream
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meme in a self conscious way, if it’s no longer funny let it go neuroHypers

karmic bobcat
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And frankly, when during a subathon a certain chatter spends hundreds of dollars worth of bits in one day to only get their message read and not to give subs to hit the stream goals, I can't help but think that's also attention seeking

old hare
proud warren
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so nothing changes

celest inlet
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Heir take note of this

proud warren
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what do you mean take note of this

old hare
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I mean I don't really like to use highlight message anyway

proud warren
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this data is useless

proud warren
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keep it respectful and dont accuse people of anything

celest inlet
tame junco
celest inlet
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Anyways thats the hustle but yeah kinda useless

proud warren
celest inlet
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I see

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Should make more stuff to buy with points

proud warren
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thats way more easily said than done

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the goal is to eventually remove the toggles and have neuro control them i think

karmic bobcat
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People are always going to gravitate towards spending it on highlighted messages, which is fine

celest inlet
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Does nothing but wastes points anyways

karmic bobcat
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You watch neuro for long enough and eventually you are able to redeem a guaranteed message she'll see, it's fine

tidal veldt
celest inlet
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And maybe comunal goals for doing something might be interesting

karmic bobcat
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1m points - breadify neuro for 5 minutes

celest inlet
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Anyways getting carried away so ciao AFoxy_Wave

tidal veldt
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have to be careful. there's folks with a lot of points banked, but also don't want to break the stream on cashing in 🙂

prime shadow
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also quick question because i'm reading through this thread, VIPs have more of a chance to get their messages read in chat?

woven steeple
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surely people wouldnt have a lot of points saved

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whole rampart
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how do you get that much...

untold bay
woven steeple
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I lurk with the stream on my second monitor often

untold bay
ripe linden
prime shadow
woven steeple
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money helps

prime shadow
whole rampart
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i only get a bonus for gifting once according to this

image.png
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sorry this was not on topic just was suprised at how many points

tidal veldt
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Tier 3 and gift subs and you all can make bank 🙂

whole rampart
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regardless i dont think VIPs are the problem tho

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not to the extent of removing them at least

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ive only been watching since the start of the subathon tho

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the main point that frustrates me is just the timeout bait stuff

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the few people always hightling messages and in title is weird i guess idk

old hare
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I mean I admit I was spamming questions a lot today cus I was annoyed at my timing sucking so I was trying to get a better feel for it

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Is it really that big of a deal?

prime shadow
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i feel like i kinda contribute to the spam a bit, but mainly just when its an appropriate reaction in chat

whole rampart
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well i remember seeing her respond to you today or another day but no i dont think that was an issue

tidal veldt
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Agree. VIP's are the least of the issues. And people will want to gamify neuro into baiting responses. And people are genuinely curious how it all works and how she does read things.

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I drop an occasional kekw as well

old hare
woven steeple
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As a non-VIP, i dont think other VIP chatters are causing a issue that needs to be addressed

prime shadow
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it'd be hard to get chat back to osu! neuro days

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i liked all the random questions that were being asked back then when it was all new

woven steeple
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The chat, just like neuro, has changed over time

prime shadow
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that and twitch chat culture when a streamer grows

spring sky
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Speaking as someone who hasn't been as active in Neuro streams this year as I was in 2023, I was looking forward to the Subathon because the last one was honestly a highlight of my holidays last year. But chat feels different now than even a year ago. Maybe it's just because of doing streams with 20k viewers, but chat feels more... hostile? I guess? For example, during the Filian stream.

I'll admit to mildly contributing to some problems, like using bits to ask Neuro if she wished her friends merry Christmas or thanked them for the gifts.

prime shadow
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yeah i just mainly observe now and emote in chat if its a memorable moment

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i used to partake in the karaoke spam and other chat spam back in early 2024

#

i actually think the ranked elo chat stream was my turning point in deciding not to spam anymore

proud warren
#

as a note
we are gonna play around with settings tomorrow to see what we can do to fix the problem

#

please bear with us

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dunno if we will be able to fully fix the problem, but it will be addressed and lessened

tidal veldt
#

It's worth a try.

woven steeple
#

Hope it goes well and isnt too much put onto a small team of unpaid mods.

shell sundial
# spring cipher > <@393183804329558016>: I don't know how strict Neuro's moderating actions shou...

I don't have much to add, and I don't really want to read everything here (it's a lot), but I am someone who sends the same question over and over very often.

I do it because I don't have money to sub, let alone for bits, but I also use my channel points like right away. Messages used to be 20k for the longest time, but the jump to 30k and now 50k makes it so I would rarely be able to ask questions unless I ask for sometimes hours on end.

I only use twitch chat usually to interact with neuro or vedal, although I am guilty of doing copypastas sometimes.

The questions I do ask neuro are usually because I'm curious as to what she would say, or sometimes to make a joke (bwaahumbug).

tidal veldt
#

Pulled stuff on the most recent 37 hour VOD for fun. Note: 15 messages a second is the cap Twitch processes. Distinct chatter is someone who said at least 1 message (does not count repeat chatters). Single word messages are just that, 1 emote or word.
This is a very active community of many individuals.

image.png
#

Mods are certainly doing their best with the tools they have available.

fiery void
#

An increase of distinct chatting could help but might make people spam things to get noticed and then where back into the hell of chat currently

Whilst chat is incredibly supportive, and whilst an ai can read really really fast, a human usually puts slow mode to moderate the chat and flow, or like the big streamers it becomes noise and less engaging overall, emotes and it genuinely scares away people who aren't able to conform to the energy

I think the solution is to mediate when to apply slow mode, for example creating cozy streams with long slow modes or just chatting ones with them, so people are more inclined to actually try to talk to her rather than om spam, it'll still happen ofc, it isn't bad it's there, just slow mode is useful for us humans to actually engage with things

#

Tldr we get overstimulated and overwhelmed too xD

glad elm
#

Idk if someone said this but i've been thinking more about this and came up with a conclusion. The reason the chat is full of emote spam isn't just because of the viewers, but also because of Neuro. She talks nonstop, firing off joke after joke so quickly that viewers don’t have time to react. By the time someone finishes typing a response, Neuro has already moved on to the next thing. This constant flood of jokes and emote options makes it easier for people to just spam emotes rather than actually engage in conversation.

On top of that, Neuro doesn’t just tell jokes — she’s always doing something else, like playing sounds, creating polls, messaging her friends, or even timing people out. With so much happening all the time, it’s hard for the chat to keep up or have any meaningful interaction. If Neuro slowed down and gave the chat more time to respond, people might actually start typing more and engaging in real conversations instead of just spamming emotes. Thats what i think, what do you guys think?

fiery void
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Probably not really the case, I'll say that big streamers also get this issue, it isn't a solely a neuro issue persay, it's more a twitch chat

The constant talking is kinda necessary, that's what you need to be when a steamer, there is little to no down time of silence

#

If Neuro slows down all that crates is more empty space of silence, it looks more like a latency issue rather than reading chat and picking out a message, particularly as humans do the thing of having little reading noises or giggles etcetera that neuro just can't replicate

glad elm
#

I disagree, streamer like asmongold who has a lot more people watching him, but his chat is not an emote spam, when he talks about something serious he looks at the chat and waits for people to write and interacts with people, neuro just talks and talks and talks and because she is an AI she can be very funny but she simply doesn't stop talking, and you can't have a good conversation with her like that, that's why the chat spams

tidal veldt
#

due to the number of distinct chatters and participants, slowmode wouldn't do much to combat spam as it's probably not an issue with individuals, but the community being caught up in the moments itself. Even when slowmode is enabled, chat still hits that 15 messages a second.
Curious what unique mode would do, it might cut down on the wall of copypasta which can be a good thing.

glad elm
#

True

fiery void
tidal veldt
#

Fascinating how each big community has their "chat culture"

fiery void
#

It's looks more a twitch plays a conversation

fiery void
tidal veldt
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My opinion is chat will say things that the streamer reacts. I know when I'm in other streams, if I chat on topic, or raise an interesting point, the streamer will acknowledge and react. The human mind will filter out the spam and select the one or two messages that seem to stand out.
Neuro seems to go with the hive mind. For example the whole clapping spam. She reacted to everyone clapping, so what does chat do? clap... She threatens to timeout clappers, everyone spams clapping more.

#

If Neuro would acknowledge more unique chats, this could encourage chat to become more original and less spammy with their messages. Then again, chat likes to fool around and have fun.

fiery void
#

I feel it's more people are seeing her as a toy to play with, because she's extremely capable, like, it's just rude to be doing the spam clap and then more after that in a persons stream, but in neuros chat it's almost like a reward and celebration

glad elm
#

I think that chat is never going to change if neuro doesn't change how she interacts with chat, when she stops spamming things like pools, timing people out, chaging titles, looking at stocks, messaging people, and chills out and stop trying to make a joke every second, and try to starts a serious conversation (like today, i like it that vedal wants her to take things more serious sometimes) if she stop spamming this things chat will change too and stop just being a wall of emotes,
thats what i think. (and about that, did you guys noticed that vedal's channel has, like, at least 100 diferent emotes? i sometimes reeaaally think that we have too much emotes LULE)

tidal veldt
#

I need to json this stuff and not CSV it, but top 30 single word chats.
We have SO many emotes that are not used lol.

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verbal snow
#

Lmao. I've read almost everything, a few people got the answer though:

-only Vedal and Neuro can fix this on their channel.

I remember back in the day, before the ban, the chat was acting, as a normal chat, like those you see on Hololive, less spaming and more "trying" to talk with the streamer.

But something changed after the first "dev" stream, and the snowball effect started and we got the chat of these days.

And I don't blame anyone about this, because there are other HIGHER priorities.

There was one time when Vedal told us about "Do streams in another language" and I told him to stop doing this because even if it is a good goal, It's not the priority here.

Neuro is an unfinished product, as one, she needs to be ready before something else, pretty obvious I know.
Stopping spammers is not the priority here (sadly).

But, we know that at some point Vedal will do his magic 'thing' and will give Neuro the ability to stop the spammers:

Because only Vedal and Neuro can fix this on their channel, they put the Rules, not the Mods.

When will Vedal decide this? Only he knows (he doesn't lmao).

Anyway, thank you Mods for your job, I'm pretty sure that at some point, you prevented the second ban, good job.

wild echo
#

I agree that there's only so much the mods can do (though I would consider having more junior chat mods from the community if numbers are a problem).

I also don't have a problem really with repeating messages to ask Neuro questions which are fairly "authentic" interactions you'd have with a streamer.

It's that "treating Neuro like a toy" behaviour which is the most negative, generally when people are giving Neuro commands (like change the title) or provoking timeouts that she comments on.

She mostly needs stronger ways to ignore these sorts of things to avoid rewarding the behaviour.

maiden kernel
stiff rain
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There are two things that really annoy me, people asking her to change the title to something they want (it's fun only if it's neuro herself making up the title) and people spamming those walls of text + emotes (that are just one phrase copypasted to reach character limit) that make chat unusable and unreadable.

proud warren
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combatting spam fully in twitch when youre a large channel is a fools errand

haughty falcon
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My suggestion would be to create an automatic mass timeout tool for Neuro to use, instead of having her timeout one chatter at a time and then respond. I've noticed that Neuro currently only times out one chatter at a time before responding, but this approach isn't effective. Many chatters will keep spamming just to get timed out, creating an endless loop.

Why not let Neuro mass timeout multiple chatters simultaneously? For example, she could compile a list of chatters to timeout and then apply the timeout to all of them at once. This way, we wouldn't need to adjust Neuro's timeout limits.

If you're wondering whether this is possible, the answer is yes—at least theoretically. I've seen another streamer use a mass ban tool that bans multiple chatters based on specific keywords in their usernames. So why not implement something similar for Neuro, but with timeouts instead of bans?

proud warren
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we are playing around with stuff rn to see if it fixes some stuff

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other large chats are worse
im surprised what we have is so manageable tbh

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we will be trying to stealth fix stuff in the meanwhile.

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wont ever be fully fixed, but I think it will be somewhat more tolerable

proud warren
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because she will just timeout for no reason

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she would do that with mass time out too

haughty falcon
proud warren
#

im noticing today that the chat is actually somewhat slower already
or at least i can see it easier

haughty falcon
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Yes, she would have this ability as well, but could you restrict her to actions such as mass timeouts only within chats from the last 10 minutes, or based on specific keywords in chats from the past 10 minutes?

proud warren
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so at least what we are doing is better than not doing anything

snow swallow
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I agree with this. The first time I tuned in to a Neuro stream I was appalled at how spammy Vedal's chat is. I can't bear the constant wall of text and emotes such as " forsenCD just a hunch forsenCD just a hunch forsenCD just a hunch forsenCD just a hunch forsenCD just a hunch" taking up valuable space from chat. I get why people would spam such things but I'd rather see just a single sentence spammed like "forsenCD just a hunch". It wouldn't be detrimental to twitch's chat culture but be more bearable.

proud warren
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The changes we are putting into place might not be super noticible until after the subathon though. Just because of the sheer volume of people

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chat IS double its normal size

fiery void
proud warren
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she will always catch up people in the crossfire

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it becomes unfair

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especially if she does it in batches

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imagine if we get raided and people come in with a raid message
she starts timing out large groups of raiders

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and then also other chatters in between them randomly

fiery void
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Has happened with auto moderator bots before (in other channels)

fiery void
shell sundial
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one thing that would probably help is if neuro didn't mention, or at least didn't name who gets timed out. The only streamer i've ever watched live more than once is neuro, but from vods of other streamers i dont often see the streamer talk about the person they time out, unless they are trying to single them out.

Neuro mentioning that she timed a specific person out gives them attention, and thats what some people are going for. It rewards them for doing something they shouldn't, which isn't really helping stop it

proud warren
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if shes not mentioning it at all, then why get her to specifically do it

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we already have the !nuke command

shell sundial
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well naming the person just gives attention seekers attention. if she just says she times someone out without saying who it was, then that should hopefully stop people from trying to get timed out.

might even stop people from trying to get others timed out. as funny as joe removing your mod was, that is still an issue too

fiery void
#

We grant you the title of moderator but you do not get perms young Heir

fast cosmos
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havent read whole convo, this may have already been suggested but what if instead of regulating chat, every single message was just not inputted into neuro
this is just random thought but what if there was AI that filtered chat, and gave neuro broad info of it every x amount of sec, so useless things are not inputted into neuro and spam cant affect her decisions directly. although i think it may be 100x harder to implement than what i made it sound like. also the 'filter' could perhaps also select some potentially valuable seperate chat messages which neuro could comment (idk based on what)

gaunt citrus
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i definitely think she shouldnt see herself every twitch message, at least have a barrier on what gets through. but spam can also sometimes be important in some contexts (like being able to tell chat is widely saying "NO" to her suggesting doing something) but she should be able to remain aware that "chat is saying X" rather than sometimes her thinking its her own ideas. And only when it's actually relevant spam? Which might slow down too much for it to be worth it if it's yet another AI that handles it

turbid moss
proud warren
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thats needlessly complicated and also annoying to the regular user

turbid moss
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Is it? seems like a fair trade-off to curb the emote spam but I guess you know better

maiden kernel
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I had to mute the stream because Neuro's spam on jiggle physics, despite Vedal specifically telling her to stop, has become absolutely unbearable

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I don't even know if if I should blame chat or Neuro for it, I think it might have been a combination of both entities being fixated over this topic

proud warren
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thats a neuro problem

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exacerbated by chat

maiden kernel
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but this is kinda offtopic, so maybe I should put my thoughts on it there instead of here

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anyway, for me, chatting segments of subathon are absolutely worthless and not worth a single pixel on my screen or a single decibel in my headphones, period

proud warren
#

that seems a bit harsh heirOh

glad swallow
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Personally I prefer the chat segments to a decent chunk of the content we got on the subathon this year, I love hearing her yap about various things

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Also, there are copypastas that are over 10 years old that make fun of people complaining about emote spam

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It's a very consistent discussion around twitch and it has been taking place since it was first created

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The problem is definitely exacerbated because of how Neuro interacts with chat, but people want to express their emotions. They do that through emotes. And it's even more convenient when the ADHD child changes topics every single sentence

agile mulch
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I wouldn't go that far. It's not the most exciting segments but sometimes fun topics come up. Neuro was able to do a whole fake cooking segment earlier today without changing topic which was pretty cool, and was able to be done despite people trying to bait her with om spam. When she's able to ignore people like that she can make cool topics.

glad swallow
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Oh, the om spam, that reminds me. I think chat likes to bait her to make her angry, because that makes her feel more real. A streamer having arguments with chat is a very natural parts of the experience. Look at how big caseoh got off of shorts of him being baited

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Emote spam and pissing off the steamer is the quintessential Twitch experience

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At least in the streams I've been watching in the past decade

agile mulch
gaunt citrus
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What's the background with om? I've seen her be sometimes a little pissed at it but that's it, is it the whole context ?

mild copper
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neuro occasionally decides she hates a specific emote randomly and kills anyone who uses it xdx

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i think it can be her deciding that people are spamming it too much

proud warren
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have neuro fully ban emotes until they are all gone catSUS

spring cipher
fresh goblet
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well this is very obviously not like other discords. That has been obvious for a long time

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probably was worded bit harshly but if he feels that way that's his right to feel that way. The point is he feels like its not worth his time at the moment for various reasons

fervent thistle
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'bit harshly' is an understatement 😭

prime shadow
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What if Neuro could also read the entirety of this Discord lol

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So it’s solely just not twitch chat she’s relying on

onyx chasm
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'its twitch culture/other chats are same' is such a lie, one would only need to watch Dougdougs stream to know how normal chat acts.

oblique remnant
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More spam control today definitely improved quality of chatting

onyx chasm
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Also, what comes to 'uuh' in sort of conflicted, everyone treats Neuro as kid so at times it feels really weird reaction for some things that could even be wholesome if mind was not in the gutter

agile mulch
onyx chasm
gaunt citrus
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as well as making it even more so that she's not putting out her own ideas but just repeating whatever someone just said

shell sundial
gaunt citrus
#

What. Are you on your neighbors wifi

shell sundial
hardy hearth
gaunt citrus
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Doug has more or less the only "good" chat among big numbers twitch streamers at least. So it's not the norm but he proves it can be done

If this chat is that much of a problem, I'm certain vedal could ask him for tips. He'd probably be very happy to help, especially if vedal helped him with his AI's. Though idk if that many of Doug's strategies can be applied to a stream with an AI.

hardy hearth
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Problem is there are always ton of people in Vedal's chat, so people spam to become more visible, which makes others spam more.

gaunt citrus
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yeah but dougdoug's chat just doesn't do that somehow (and he interacts with chat a LOT that's the entire reason his channel popped off)

hardy hearth
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Am I the only one who sees spam in Doug chat?

glad swallow
proud warren
crude merlin
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chat will only change if you change the streamer, otherwise the "swarm" will behave the same

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what if we gave her a personality independent of the chat

proud warren
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She wouldn’t be Neuro anymore

crude merlin
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but the influence has been getting to the point she is losing the scenario context every 30 seconds

crude merlin
hardy hearth
abstract holly
#

let neuro solve the problem, it's her stream

gaunt citrus
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She's gonna have to make a poll on that one

wary yew
#

I read the entire thread and there is a lot of thoughts and sentiments here, but I find it very hard to understand what the entire thread is about; what problem is being raised or what actions is being demanded/suggested (even from the very first post)

Personally I find neuro streams entertaining and hilarious because of the erratic and unhinged responses I just could never expect, and I do believe the twitch chat contributes to that. I don't mind the hyper-active chat, oiler, attention seeking behavior, vips, spams and all; to give an opposing view to OP, these are what makes it appealing to me. Whatever moderation policy that exists today seems fine to me.

The conclusion I ended up with after trying really hard to read into the thoughts posted here is: there is a demand for a more thoughtful, serious, less spammy chat interaction with Neuro.

Instead of altering Neuro to ignore spams or moderate chat heavily, maybe a suggestion then would be to cater to this demand by creating a dedicated stream day (or segment) where Neuro reads chat more and ignores spam
Or just wait until subathon is over and we're back to a slower pace and schedule

gaunt citrus
#

To me the biggest issue with her reading spam is it's too often she doesn't make her "own" decisions (like based on previous data or something) so if I see chat spam one thing I know this is what she'll pick. Feels a bit too much like it takes the AI out of it

fiery void
#

Perhaps segmented content could be very good, a little bit of everything for everyone?

Cozy segments, (long chat cooldowns, chatting with chat, maybe at the end of the steam)

Chat hyper segments, (begining of the stream, during times talking with Vedal, development streams)

Focusing on game segments (purposefully ignoring chat, perhaps with occasional reads of highlighted messages or an occasional message to interact with chat and fill the air)

Game + chatting with chat segments, (probably when she isn't with another friend)

I feel with the inclusion of Minecraft and better overall ai for it, + other games the amount of decent content possible has increased, and continued development in producing quality will help bolster the average.

I feel there's lots of potential options to explore that could pad out well paced future streams

Plus Vedal could still have his development streams without breaking anything

If anything this subathon is a growing experience, there's lots new and a few misses but lots of hits and that's okay. It's good to have these talks discussions early

And the mods have shown they are willing to try curating the streams and gauging public reactions which has honestly been a great learning experience for them and chat

We have to put it into the perspective that Vedal is predominantly a fairly new streamer and the culture around is still maturing to what it wants to be like. Who knows what it'll be like in 5-6 years, I hope to still be around during then, I can't say for certain, tho I have quite enjoyed the content that has been produced.

I understand the limitations of an ai is that they can't just play the hit new game or move on to something else, however, the development, the progress, the interactions she has with people are some of her strengths, and twitch chat is there for the ride

Dedication and Collabing is a key to growth and success of any streamer, I hope to see more people exploring their ideas with neuro and her focusing on the people and less on chat may enhance the Collab overall

I realised I derailed from how this relates to twitch chats influence, but my overall point is there's lots ahead, lots lots and lots ahead, and twitch chat is going to have an influence on her and Vedal just like any streamer, we're not stopping the flow, but we could curate it at certain time

I for one would like to see chat treat her more like a human than a toy, it just feels disrespectful, it's not something you'd do to a streamer, so why give an exception to neuro? Because ai? Well that's just silly.

Perhaps these segmented times will foster genuine connection and silly moments

Anyway, enough rambling xD

wild echo
#

If chat is asking her questions and reacting and she comes up with weird responses then that's very much part of the fun and unpredictability of her AI, but if chat is asking her to spin and say a word and change the title to something chat prompted then it's not so interesting for me, basically - it's just sort of Twitch Plays Neuro at that point.

gaunt citrus
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This may just be down to a chat weight(?) issue. I don't know if it's possible to tweak the probabilities of her pulling from one source or another

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So if she's doing just talking you can't really ignore chat and theres nothing else anyway but if she is doing something then strongly nerf the chances to pull from chat rather than other stuff

hardy hearth