#Neuro Sama Survivors-like

1 messages · Page 6 of 1

hard moth
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If any other descriptions need clarification feel free to alert me NeuroSip haven't realized some of the downsides of having everything formated the same

unreal thunder
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or actually wait

hard moth
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need to NeuroSleep in a little

unreal thunder
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no, wait a second, I'm confusing 33% with 1.33x, knew it

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yeah, alright, I got it now

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this is a very commonly recurring theme

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but whenever you say % less damage

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either avoid it outright or specify if you mean additively or multiplicatively

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for my description standards, I always avoid saying % less (insert thing here) outright, as 1.xx times less damage is always super clear

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either way though, 30% is wrong both additively and multiplicatively

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can either say 25% filter is 25% less damage (pretty useless/redundant info), or 25% filter is 1.33x less damage (recommended)

hard moth
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Meant to say 25%

unreal thunder
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ah

hard moth
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30% is the old value for lv 1 forgot to edit

unreal thunder
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k

cerulean bear
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now that's a lot of damage

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tired haven
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By the way, what's the directive limit meant to be? I have 6 of them and it said something that with a quick read was that the limit is 5?

cerulean bear
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yeah i have 6 too. also, unpausing after removing one while in the directive menu unpauses the game

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not gonna lie, harpoons doing over 100 damage is maybe a little strong

tired haven
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I finally managed to beat the game with Vedal + Neuro
Was quite difficult

cerulean bear
unreal thunder
# cerulean bear

now that 100% filter is possible, I wouldn't be surprised if you come up with the same idea I have lol

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looks like you're doing it already from the pic

cerulean bear
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one small problem. greggs is lagging me

unreal thunder
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is more or less what I was doing in v1.4 for my high score, except without ability to ignore evil damage like that

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what's greggs

cerulean bear
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vedals healing item

unreal thunder
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ah creggs

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is it creggs lagging you or the pizzas

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and seems you're using vedal now also lel

cerulean bear
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you tell me

image.png
unreal thunder
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I've had way more than that moderate amount of creggs before, pizza is always what lags me in the end

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though I can't say for you

cerulean bear
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i need more pizzas to lag me. i usually sit around 20-25 fps

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unreal thunder
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ah

cerulean bear
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i told evil to sit so she doesn't kill everything before they can damage me so i can pick some up neurOMEGALUL

unreal thunder
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lel

tired haven
cerulean bear
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Vedal in a maximum security prison:

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unreal thunder
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heh

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yep, that's exactly what I was going to do when kotge told me about 100% filter earlier in dm for 1.5

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so guess the strat is obvious then, only need to crunch numbers to get optimal setup

cerulean bear
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yeah i'm WAY too strong. filter is part of it, but 102 damage harpoons 1 shot things

unreal thunder
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is why I estimated scores as high as 150k in v1.5 lol

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if not higher

cerulean bear
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try 500k lol

unreal thunder
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I improved my v1.4 score very slightly from 49k to 49.8k, but I'm sure 60k could've been done before vedal gets one shot by stuff

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perhaps with harpoon it becomes higher, I only estimated based on 100% filter being super gg

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that was the exact reason my runs ever ended in 1.4 at all, because vedal keeps taking chip damage from pizzas, and then I need to run between mobs, which is dangerous for evil, evil's damage wasn't a bottleneck at all

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guess everyone's going to copy my evil/vedal combination now lmao

cerulean bear
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yeah, but i do so much damage that the harpoons would 4 shot max filter vedal from last patch

unreal thunder
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though with the changes, I'm definitely going to be re-evaluating if neuro is decent again

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ye

cerulean bear
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tbh, 100% filter wasn't what i had my eye on, but something else

unreal thunder
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100% filter was 100% what I had my eye on heh

cerulean bear
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100% filter does enable it, but it's why i do so much damage

unreal thunder
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vedal taking damage from evil was the hard bottleneck to my 1.4 scores

cerulean bear
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fireball is doing 41 damage

unreal thunder
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has aoe though

tired haven
unreal thunder
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perhaps, but 100% filter exists now

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so now she can also do the drone spam strat

cerulean bear
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i've resorted to afking

unreal thunder
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welcome to the club

cerulean bear
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what directives do you have?

unreal thunder
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I'm theorycrafting best combination atm

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I figured the strat would be obvious, so all that's left is number crunching

cerulean bear
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i meant in your current game

unreal thunder
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i wasn't playing one

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just tried out the new skills to see what they do, then went to theorycrafting

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played enough 1.4 to know 100% filter is easy afk strat lol

cerulean bear
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ah. i knew the best setup before it released because 1 directive is hilariously op

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like, the second i saw it

unreal thunder
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yeah, top performance AI right

cerulean bear
unreal thunder
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get ninja'd

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lel

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but yeah that's the obvious one

cerulean bear
unreal thunder
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however, if comparing 100% filter vs top performance AI, 100% filter probably wins, it's that good

arctic sirenBOT
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You have unlocked new role

unreal thunder
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combining the two is then ofc amazing

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was the max directives 5?

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thought you mentioned 6 earlier

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and kotge mentioned 7 in dm with considerations of 5-7 lol

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I see you're running a similar setup to what I'm thinking

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but my setup will be slightly different

cerulean bear
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68 hp evil means 3.4 times damage which is absurd

unreal thunder
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if anything, I'm considering which multipliers stack additively and which stack multiplicatively

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it's not so simple as just getting the highest total of % multipliers

cerulean bear
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cd is really strong too, especially once evil gets the fumo upgrade

unreal thunder
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is fumo upgrade in game yet

cerulean bear
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speaking from experience playing magic survival

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nope

unreal thunder
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ah

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I come from holocure

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and in general from touhou, where I'm the world champion of 2 fangames, world record holder of 4

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games like these with strategy and optimization involved are right up my alley oho

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btw, your directives are giving you 90 max hp on evil right

tired haven
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100% filter is very cool but also very powerful
This build also feels a lot more laggy than the previous one

unreal thunder
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definitely the most powerful one imo, 100% filter

cerulean bear
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68 max hp on evil

unreal thunder
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isn't her base max hp 60

cerulean bear
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also, found another bug

unreal thunder
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ah, the description was wrong

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I see

cerulean bear
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discarding directives lets me keep their effects

unreal thunder
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seems character setup from main menu still shows 60 max hp

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lol

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hm, so 67.5 hp is rounded up to 68 then

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that or it's just displayed as rounded

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an additive +1.125x multiplier

cerulean bear
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i scrapped cd for gaming obsessions 50% attack to see if it was additive or multiplicative (it's additive) and i still have the cd

tired haven
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There's quite a few bugs then
I guess it was a good idea to patch out leaderboard functionality from this build

unreal thunder
cerulean bear
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i scrapped gaming obsession for 7% cd and didn't keep the attack, but i still have the cd from the other cd directive

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i'm level 80. i think i might try to end this game so i can try neuro out

unreal thunder
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dewit

cerulean bear
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so the 7% cd didn't stick either

unreal thunder
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hmm

cerulean bear
tired haven
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I'm getting around 150 FPS
On 12700K, 4070Ti, 1440p, 64GB DDR4-3600 (*OC)

cerulean bear
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20% collection range doesn't stick, but i found something else hilariously busted

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distributed computation is the cd that's been sticking after discarding, and i just picked it up again. it stacks

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18% cd to 36%

unreal thunder
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does cd affect fireball shooting rate

cerulean bear
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i can't seem to die even after removing directives. i have 120% filter so i think evil heals me now

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yeah she's healing me. no wonder i cant die

tired haven
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Anny + Evil is just a little strong in this update

cerulean bear
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shes also doing damage to herself when hitting me. under 100% filter i take damage, but over 100% she does?

unreal thunder
cerulean bear
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i did it

tired haven
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Level 81, seems like this thing has no intention of dying any time soon

cerulean bear
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level 88

tired haven
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That's insane

cerulean bear
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thats with me TRYING to die

tired haven
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How many frames?

cerulean bear
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if i get hit by evil she would heal me. plus the copious amount of greggs

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2-3

tired haven
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I'm down to the 90 FPS range

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Well, if I tab in it goes up to as high as 120-150

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I wonder if my OC'd ram is helping

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How did you get over 100% filter by the way?

cerulean bear
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not every directive does this, but a couple do

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from the ones i tried

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also, Neuro Adventures the movie

image.png
tired haven
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At least it's nowhere near as big as the subathon (subathon is 1.7TB)

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(yes, I have a full copy of the entire subathon, you can download it on my FTP server)

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Two copies in fact, one main and one backup

cerulean bear
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how i ended the game was i put evil in a corner to concentrate enemy spawns in a much smaller area

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it wouldn't fit on 3 copies of my hard drive neurowheeze

tired haven
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The entire subathon?

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Well, it takes up a major chunk of my 8TB drives (SMOL) so makes sense

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8TB is too SMOL now

cerulean bear
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my hard drive is 464 gb lol

tired haven
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Probably actual size is 512GB

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And 464GB is formatted size

unreal thunder
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^

tired haven
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My 8TB drives become 7.27TB

cerulean bear
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well ima give neuro a go now before i gotta go volunteer

tired haven
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Neuro will probably feel quite weak

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Neuro adventures v1.5 beta Anny + Evil lategame (Shimes not included):

image.png
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Level 100, this thing has no intention of dying any time soon

cerulean bear
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seasoned babysitter doesnt seem to work

tired haven
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What is that?

cerulean bear
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evasion increase based on filter

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also, neuros damage is good, but angel wings is more dangerous than before. they still target you, and with shorter cd and a wider spread they are way too hard to dodge

image.png
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with the last level, dodging isn't really an option. 1 often targets you, and the other covers another huge area of the screen

tired haven
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Optimization idea: merge XP cogwheels into bigger ones when multiple are close to each other

cerulean bear
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also, i find theres way too much going on at once. too many things to dodge mainly (100% filter fixes this), enemies spawning near you, and some enemies are also a lot faster (which i'm ok with)

tired haven
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I don't feel the enemy scaling at all, everything still gets one shot at level 112

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I'm pretty sure Anny is pretty impossible to kill, she has too many stars and pizzas around her, Evil is basically the same since she's at the middle of the slowing ring and all the chaos happening around her

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It's not even using a full core
I wonder if this is a memory bandwidth thing

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unreal thunder
tired haven
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At this point I'm running below 50 FPS consistently, level 116

unreal thunder
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I mentioned to kotge a few days ago already that enemies should scale nonlinearly

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probably quadratically or exponentially like holocure does, forgot which

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that or after a certain time has passed, start scaling linearly extremely fast

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which holocure does with basically spawning a handful of minibosses every 2 seconds or so after the 30 minute mark

unreal thunder
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neither does vedal

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no amount of stacking stars can keep up with the enemies once evil can't keep up

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I demonstrated in v1.4 vedal is superior because as neither do meaningful damage, vedal has the support and utility anny doesn't, via his stuns

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(though that was also partially because anny's teleport was broken, making a certain idea I had in v1.4 lategame unreliable)

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same in v1.5 probably, vedal slows the advance of enemies

cerulean bear
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so a list of suggestions/changes i would like to see

  1. top performance AI makes it easy to do obscene amounts of damage and is honestly way too strong on evil because of her healing upgrade

  2. a limit on how many upgrades the ai can have at once to reduce how much is going on. like a loadout that you select before playing (it also helps balance-wise, like the max directives you can have)

  3. a limit on pizzas/drones. they become laggy in high numbers, and were crazy strong already. drone automation should also have a limit because it continually spawns them, and they stick after removing the directive

there are things i still want to test more before making more suggestions

unreal thunder
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1 can be addressed by either nerfing it or by having enemies actually scale quickly, latter sounds better to me

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isn't 2 and 3 essentially the same

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once you address 3, 2 is solved also

tired haven
cerulean bear
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magic survival also has exponential scaling too. theres way less to keep track of, so i can focus on staying alive. also theres no ranged attacks to worry about which is why i find it to be too much. ADD probably doesn't help neurOMEGALUL

unreal thunder
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lol

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sounds like an easier game

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there's not much going on in game compared to holocure and even in v1.4 I didn't have to dodge much

cerulean bear
unreal thunder
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and enemies don't even scale in speed in this game

cerulean bear
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for magic survival, its more rng dependent, but the main skill is movement in general. its easier, but it still gets difficult later on

unreal thunder
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see 1:45 or so of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6mz9QxFBHY&t=105 lol

YouTube
Game Voyager
Holocure Gura but with 1258% Speed (Endless)

This is the furthest time with Gura on the new update! (At least from what I've seen) Gura can reach insane levels of speed with this HP/SPD hybrid build! I don't know how much further we can go, but if we can get Yagoo to spawn 1 wave at a time, we MIGHT be able to keep surviving for a bit longer. Anyway, wanted to share this build as soon as p...

▶ Play video
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this is what typical 30:00+ endless runs in holocure look like

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and plenty stages have mass amounts of bullets shot at you too

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just a matter of skill

cold egret
cerulean bear
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actually, magic survival does have a ranged attack now from the update in december. i forgot about it because its new neurOMEGALUL

unreal thunder
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yeah good

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if anything there's too little going on in neuro adventures and the game is way too easy

cerulean bear
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v1.4 felt good to me tbh. there was a lot going on, but it was manageable. the roadblock for me was more enemies 2 shotting me or evil (usually evil)

unreal thunder
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probably because you didn't figure out the strat for the first 40 minutes of the game where there was literally nothing to do 90% the time

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lol

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is why my scoring efficiency was way higher also, i.e. score gained per time survived

cerulean bear
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score is based on kills

unreal thunder
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yes

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how do you think I was able to get 12k higher score than you and thatoneguy, despite surviving for less time

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lol

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only after 40 min was the game interesting at all, but even then not much went on, it's more that hitboxes covered the entire sprite, rather than just being a square

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which I told kotge about, is why hitbox is square now

cerulean bear
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fireball carried until enemies scaled, then pizzas take over. run too much and they wont hit anything, so you let them catch up and they shred

unreal thunder
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if hitbox were square in 1.4 it'd be much easier to keep evil alive, it's always when she's moving horizontally between enemies that she gets clipped and dies

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what if I told you I more or less just afk'd the first 40 minutes of the game, except when transitioning between phases in my strat

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lul

cerulean bear
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i move the entire time because standing still isn't really fun. also to pick up exp

unreal thunder
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I play normal/hard to have fun

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I play endless to win

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that's why my scoring efficiency was so much higher

cerulean bear
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i play endless for both neurOMEGALUL

unreal thunder
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the fact I can stand still so easily for literally the first 40 min of a v1.4 game shows there's nothing really going on

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and then post 40 min, the only danger is usually evil getting clipped by multiple enemies when moving horizontally, only cuz hitbox was too tall

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don't even need to dodge her fireballs

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40 minutes of chicken stockpiled on map sees to that

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and now v1.5 just be idle simulator

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lmao

cerulean bear
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it's also only the first level. it doesn't make sense unless it's a souls difficulty game to be super hard

unreal thunder
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play holocure stage 1 endless, then tell me that

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lel

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it isn't even moderately hard, let alone super hard

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it's literally braindead

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I broke former top score in v1.4 on my 2nd endless attempt because of how simple it is

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doesn't need to get any simpler pls

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needs more going on, not less

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the amount of equipment setup and optimization it takes in holocure to be able to just afk ingame in comparison is staggeringly higher

cerulean bear
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with magic survival, afking is only really useful for grinding. theres boss waves every 2 and a half minutes lol

unreal thunder
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with a really strong optimized setup, even boss waves can be afk'd through

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but the amount of effort and theorycrafting required is staggering

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and only few characters can do it

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involves some serious facetanking and faith your char won't die, despite hovering around 30% hp constantly from all the damage lul

cerulean bear
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not in magic survival. you pick up a chest after each one to unpause the timer

unreal thunder
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laughs in matsuri

cerulean bear
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also, facetanking isn't really an option

unreal thunder
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no strong equipment combinations or some other aspect to engineer an option?

cerulean bear
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enemies scale too much even with like 80% damage reduction

unreal thunder
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are you talking about equivalent of lategame endless here

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or the "normal" part of the game

cerulean bear
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yeah. more late game, but you need to run around anyways and pick things up before they despawn otherwise you wont be able to buy stuf at merchants (which also despawn)

unreal thunder
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you sure this isn't a skill issue

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I see a afk build on youtube at 42 minutes in

cerulean bear
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thats an OLD version

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like 3 years at least

unreal thunder
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ah, no longer possible then eh

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ah wait, that was the wrong vid anyways

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how about this one

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this was the 42 min one

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this one also old version?

cerulean bear
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also super old. 2-3 years

unreal thunder
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ah

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the facetanking I was talking about is for the normal part of the game

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not the endless part

cerulean bear
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the merchant is in the newest update, and mana (exp) despawns after like a minute

unreal thunder
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not even my afk facetanking build in holocure could survive long in endless, best was like 2 minutes in (32:00), then all the YAGOO's do too much damage

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and it's fundamentally broken that I can afk in the normal part of neuro adventures and well past that with so little effort

cerulean bear
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facetanking has never really been viable in magic survival. tank metas usually involve running far enough to despawn things

unreal thunder
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hmk

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also, ever heard of touhou?

cerulean bear
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i've heard of it, but never played. i gtg now though

unreal thunder
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alright, cya

tired haven
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Way too easy
Time to try to see if I can manage to die

image.png
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I feel like enemy scaling might just not exist in this build

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Finally, that took a bit longer than expected
I thought a single hit from an enemy would just be enough to kill me but nope, I guess Kotge must have deleted enemy scaling entirely

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tired haven
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Few suggestions

  1. bring back enemy scaling
  2. fix all the bugs such as the issue with directives sometimes not correctly removing value
  3. make it so if you have 100% filter you don't interact with Neuro/Evil's projectile hitboxes at all (there's quite a bit of noise from that in the lategame right now)
  4. optimize XP cogwheels with the combination method where multiple cogwheels near each other merge into one that has the total value of all of them, which should significantly reduce lag
  5. possibly make other, more lag-friendly endless upgrades for endless mode, otherwise endless mode is gonna become a game of who has the best hardware
hard moth
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Awake again and will read the comments soon SMILE

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  1. I added exponential enemy scaling but it seems its broken NeuroSip will look at my code

  2. Noted.

  3. Will prob do something like that.

  4. Should be doable. Like a gold one that equals 4.

  5. Ill add a cap yah. Endless upgrades im thinking of are:

+1% ai atk.
+1% collab atk
+1% ai max hp.
+1% collab max hp
-0.5% ai cd red.
-0.5% collab cd red.

hard moth
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I may copy magic survivals and force endless upgrades after a certain lvl neuroMahiro

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Which will 'cap' drones and other upgrades

cerulean bear
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Magic survival caps at 150, so it's not actually endless. But yeah, that works. Also makes reroll more useful

hard moth
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patch coming soon with most of the changes except cog combining into one thing cause I still need to figure out how to implement it

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and yes scaling is indeed broken

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my scale function returns a value but I haven't set it to anything NeuroMahi

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so like super said there was no scale

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should be set back to exponential

cerulean bear
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Tbh, even without scaling I noticed enemies were stronger. Even the goblins kinda hurt somewhat

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Btw, I forgot to mention that anny only had 40 HP, and neuros speed was the same as anny's despite it saying 75 in game. Also a few numbers aren't in line with the spreadsheet, such as the evasion directives both saying 10

hard moth
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yahhh need to update those

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AI's will not go faster then the collab partner once they'v reached the close-radius

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cause, well, if not they'll just crash into the collab partner and go back and forth. (Learned it during testing) neuroMahiro

cerulean bear
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I mean in the pause menu it listed the same

hard moth
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are they not supposed to be?

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Anny's HP been updated

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ig it reset while I was updating some values

cerulean bear
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Vedal has max 40, and anny is supposed to have 45 but only has 40

hard moth
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yah Anny's been updated to 45 again

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for speed tho both Neuro and Anny is supposed to be 60

cerulean bear
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Ah. In game it says 75 for neuro

hard moth
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hmm Ig I fixed it somehow then

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at least in the patch, it says it correctly now

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I went through all the values and matched them w the spreadsheets everything should (hopefully) match

cerulean bear
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Also, with both HP directives evil only hit 68 HP. It should be 75 or 78 depending on how the HP is calculated

hard moth
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this one?

image.png
cerulean bear
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Yeah. I had both and only had 68 HP on evil

hard moth
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oh err

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Evil hp was

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wrong

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updated

cerulean bear
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I mean, I was doing enough damage so I didn't need the extra damage

hard moth
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I was doing some refractoring and I guess that messed up all the values NeuroSip

cerulean bear
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Also, sometimes damage numbers don't show up. I saw my harpoons doing 102, but I didn't see how much the pipes did

hard moth
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any dmg below 1 doesn't show up

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should I add them back

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wait

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pipes should do more then 1 tho

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erm

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Ill check that

cerulean bear
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The pipes were doing damage for sure lol

hard moth
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howtf di you get 102 dmg tho

cerulean bear
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Max HP to damage

hard moth
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ah

cerulean bear
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40 HP is 2x, so 68? Almost 3.5 times

hard moth
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/ 30 now neuroMahiro

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actually

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ima try / 50

cerulean bear
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I knew it was busted when I read it lol. 2x is still a lot

hard moth
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wait

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50% of HP

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not 50

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im confusing myself

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/ 25

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or / 30 idk

cerulean bear
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The tier 3 directive for attack is a 16.67% damage increase overall, and the tier one is 3.33%

hard moth
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gonna go with /25

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so 50 HP = x2

cerulean bear
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Even with /40 the damage boost eclipses the 50% attack directive

hard moth
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45 HP (neuro) = x1.8

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tho that would mean you need basically max HP else you would get reduced dmg

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would you still take it?

cerulean bear
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Without the AI damage upgrades, dual swords hits for 1, and with it maxed it does 3. With the tier 3 directive you do 3.5

With top performance AI instead, 2x gets you to 6 damage

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In a similar vein, the directive that gives cd based on pickup range also gives more than the tier 3. In fact, more than both the tier 1 and 3 combined

hard moth
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that part is intended NeuroSip

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the pickup range thing at least

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mainly because its conditional

cerulean bear
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I didn't have the directive tho and got 18%

cerulean bear
hard moth
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wait where is the 70.2 from

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or is that max +hp %

cerulean bear
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Yeah, that's with both directives

hard moth
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hmm then /30 might be what ill do

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or well

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I did fix the exponential scaling

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so ill leave it to /25 for now

cerulean bear
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I guess my directive loadout will stay the same (assuming the max of 6 was intentional)

hard moth
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nope suppsoed to be 5

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I put a < instead of ==

image.png
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I may not be suited for programming mabe neuroMahi

cerulean bear
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Ah, ok. Guess I'm dropping cd. Probably better for lag that way

hard moth
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ok need to go away for a while but after returning gonna do the infinite upgrades (should be easy enough since I can use the same system for directives here but just make them upgrades instead and I don't ahve to worry about removing the effects) and put a cap

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after the cap (probably lv35) only the infinite upgrades will be accessible

cerulean bear
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35 is lower than I thought, but kinda spicy. Gonna have to plan what I take now

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Though what about the free upgrade collectables? Forgot what they were called

hard moth
#

Will stop spawning after a set amount

#

Prob like 7?

tired haven
# hard moth 1. I added exponential enemy scaling but it seems its broken <:NeuroSip:12358838...

I don't know if we need an upgrade cap, unless you just meant for the drone count
You could still allow for infinite drones, just make there be other possible endless upgrades so that you don't end up eventually hitting a performance wall so the game doesn't become a hardware race (out of us I would easily win a hardware race)
Also, make the stacking for XP cogwheels work infinitely, otherwise it won't entirely be a good fix for the lag, there will just be a 4th of the amount of cogwheels and that's still too many

hard moth
#

Main reason for an upgrade cap is I don't want players to have access to all of the upgrades at once, both for lag and balance reasons

tired haven
#

Didn't Patric say that an upgrade cap that reduces the amount going on wouldn't be a good idea because there isn't enough going on as is or something?
I don't know, I kinda like having everything

cerulean bear
#

I'm for the upgrade cap honestly. I find there's too many attacks to dodge now without 100% filter

#

It also promotes strategy. You won't have as many upgrades as last patch, so you have to pick and choose your build

tired haven
#

I don't know really, Patric said to not reduce how much is going on, so who knows
I guess we'll see if they have anything to say once they return or something
Either way, once there's XP combining and infinite upgrades other than drones the lag should reduce significantly

#

The lag was really bad by the way, at one point when I let it run alone for a bit the frames went down to around 6 FPS and it was hard to even collect away the XP because collectibles behave badly at framerates below like 10

hard moth
#

hopefully, fixing scaling would fix that, plus the xp combination thing

#

the game wasn't supposed to last that long NeuroSip

#

scaling is really hard now

tired haven
#

Yeah, I assume the game was not intended to last 220 minutes (almost 4 hours)

#

I think now with scaling enabled again it would be interesting to try what happens this time with the same strategy, which would mean not implementing an upgrade cap at least just yet
If it's still too powerful maybe implement an upgrade cap in a later upgrade

#

Depends on if Patric has a better idea for that

unreal thunder
unreal thunder
tired haven
unreal thunder
#

appropriate scaling fixes issues regarding strategy, so no need to nerf the player for that (though some directives are indeed way too strong compared to others)

tired haven
#

For now I guess just see what happens with scaling enabled

unreal thunder
#

yea

unreal thunder
# tired haven Depends on if Patric has a better idea for that

my impression from holocure is that the YAGOOs in 30:00+ of endless mode scale linearly, though each of them start with huge stats already and are basically spawning 5 or so minibosses at you every few seconds or so, so linear scaling works for them

#

don't think it matters too much for now though as long as scaling prevents long games

tired haven
#

We'll see how well the scaling works once we get the new build

unreal thunder
#

in holocure, the best runs last in the range of 40-50 min

#

yea

cerulean bear
# unreal thunder what attacks to dodge? you don't have to dodge crap in this game even in v1.4. e...

I said without 100% filter, so the AI's attacks? The reason anny was so good last patch was because she could easily heal off the chip damage from the occasional hits from evils fireballs. But now both neuros have more attacks, attack faster, hit harder depending on your directives. 100% filter means there's nothing to dodge except the enemies themselves, which is only relevant super early for a bit, and once the enemies scale enough that they build up faster than you can damage them

#

The optimal directives will probably be top performance AI, both HP and both filter like what I was running

unreal thunder
#

and you don't have to dodge the AI's attacks either, like I already mentioned several times

#

you just didn't figure out the strat to be able to afk

#

and wdym anny was so good last patch

#

I literally showed vedal is easily better

#

vedal can easily ignore the chip damage entirely because he has his invincibility skill

cerulean bear
#

I wouldn't afk regardless. That's not fun. I play the game to actually play itneurOMEGALUL

unreal thunder
#

why are you saying there's too much going on then when you willfully choose to play suboptimally then lmao

#

picks bad strats, then says there's too much going on, makes no sense

#

and I also mentioned the tall hitbox had a lot to do with it in 1.4, which was fixed

#

fireball alone is easily able to carry until evil's new skills are even needed

cerulean bear
#

I mean, you say bad strats when you don't really know how I played. If you scroll up, I did share some runs

unreal thunder
#

you played suboptimally is how you played

#

you already told me you play endless for fun, not to win, and you did not figure out how to be able to afk

cerulean bear
#

I do it for both is what I said

#

Afk isn't fun for me

#

I want to win with skill, not sitting there

unreal thunder
#

if you choose to have to dodge stuff you don't have to dodge just because it isn't fun to you personally, it makes no sense that there's too much to dodge

#

lul

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want to win with skill, have the game add more to actually NEED to dodge

#

your logic is backwards

cerulean bear
#

Damn, I never uploaded any of my 30k runs. I'll have to do that tomorrow. It's 3 am and my phone's at 3%

unreal thunder
#

for what version

cerulean bear
#

1.4

unreal thunder
#

and what would be the point of uploading it

#

or the intended purpose

cerulean bear
#

Well from my perspective it seems like you are kinda just calling me bad at the game (not saying you are, just what it feels like)

unreal thunder
#

I mean I kinda am, but the point isn't to insult you

#

I owned the top 5 scores in v1.4 by the end, not just the top 2, and I was getting 40k+ casually

#

there's nothing wrong with playing for fun but you choose suboptimal strats, then say the game makes you dodge too much when it's actually you willfully choosing to dodge too much, instead of use optimal strats so you don't have to

cerulean bear
#

And yet you are the one and only person with a 40k score. It's more you are really good than everyone else being bad

unreal thunder
#

no, just about any decent holocure player could get 40k

#

and any great holocure player would easily beat my 50k score

#

it is you being somewhat bad

#

I'm not some god at survivors games at all

cerulean bear
#

And this isn't holocure

unreal thunder
#

and the skills are directly transferrable

#

so it doesn't matter

#

the best players play purely to win as hard as possible, that's the facts

cerulean bear
#

I am among the best players in magic survival, and my skills come from there

unreal thunder
#

well by your own logic, unfortunately your magic survival skills didn't transfer to getting top score in 1.4

#

or even top former score, before I came along

#

thatoneguy had the former top score

#

point is again, I didn't easily break top score by over 10k because I'm amazing at neuro adventures, it's because it's easy and I figured out optimal strat for it

cerulean bear
unreal thunder
#

using optimal strats is part of getting better

#

and so is developing optimal strats

cerulean bear
#

I do both, never one or the other

unreal thunder
#

which far as I'm aware, I'm the only person to have done in 1.4

#

well maybe you should've developed optimal strat then, you didn't even know what it was until I told you

#

to even know it was an afk strat

#

and what are you even arguing for, I said that adding more to the game would require the player to dodge, then you wouldn't need to unnecessarily dodge stuff you don't need to just to make it fun for yourself

cerulean bear
#

I had the top score before thatoneguy. I got bored and took a break, and couldn't get myself to play more than a round here and there

unreal thunder
#

what part of this statement do you disagree with

#

neither of you were able to figure out optimal scoring strat in v1.4, whether or not it's because you were playing for fun or whatnot, all I see are the results and that you both had terrible scoring efficiency, clearly you didn't figure out optimal strat and your focus on both having fun and playing well is a detriment to you playing well

cerulean bear
#

If you play purely to win and not for fun, you just burn out

unreal thunder
#

deal with it then

#

I've burnt out several times of my favorite games, but I always come back to them, and I find this completely acceptable, as that is the natural consequence of going all out to achieve world records and such

#

playing to win is fulfilling, and often that is a deeper sense of satisfaction than having fun, so I have no problems with that

unreal thunder
cerulean bear
#

I burn out on every single game I play, and usually within a month or two at most. The fact I've watched neuro for a year without breaks is a first for me

unreal thunder
#

relatable, so find ways to deal with burnout

cerulean bear
#

I move on to something else and come back when I want to

unreal thunder
#

indeed, that is exactly what I do also

#

have enough hobbies to rotate between them as I burn out of some of them

#

like I said, there's nothing wrong with you playing for fun, but you do need to understand that you will never reach the level of someone playing to win if you want to focus on that

#

if you have no problems with that, that's fine

#

but it makes little sense to then say the game makes you dodge too much

#

that is literally your choice to dodge more than required

#

when the game is redesigned so stuff have to be dodged, even with optimal strat, you won't need to place additional arbitrary challenges on yourself just to have fun

cerulean bear
# unreal thunder like I said, there's nothing wrong with you playing for fun, but you do need to ...

THIS is why I'm arguing really. This REALLY rubs me the wrong way. Just because I play better than other people, I don't call them bad, yet you come in and do exactly that.

It's not that I didn't know you could stand still between evils fireballs, but rather the enemies that line up with that gap can just kill you anyway. It's not exactly fun anyway to do that, and I know I could have gotten farther the way I was playing. The hard part wasn't keeping myself alive, it was keeping evil from being hit twice before she could heal

unreal thunder
#

that's because you assume I say you play bad because I play better, you fundamentally don't understand what I'm saying

#

and alright, so you did know you could stand still between fireballs. you don't know how to deal with enemies between the gaps killing you

#

I do

#

and it's really not difficult to figure out

cerulean bear
#

Vedal's rum

unreal thunder
#

yes, and that's part of why I picked vedal lul

cerulean bear
#

But I play anny

unreal thunder
#

so you picked the worse character

#

I had my doubts when both super and kotge told me anny was meta

#

was extremely clear to me vedal was better within a day of playing

#

I rate player skill by my skill tier system, which is an absolute measurement system, not a relative one

#

it isn't "I scored higher than you so you're bad"

cerulean bear
#

Anny's teleport is also great at staying alive, quickly steering evil, getting her moving if you are close to her. Her natural Regen and oranges offset chip damage easily

unreal thunder
#

no, it's you failed to see even the pretty easy solutions to dealing with the basic problems of how to ensure you can afk and score well, as well as the fact your scoring efficiency was clearly terrible

#

I stated many reasons already both here and in dm with kotge why anny is clearly worse in 1.4

#

not to mention anny's teleport was severely bugged in 1.4

cerulean bear
#

I realize vedals rum is really good, 3 second stun time is kinda strong, but I found anny to be better for surviving

unreal thunder
#

natural regen is bad, her healing per consuming item is terrible, no burst heal, MASSIVE orange consumption (terrible for not burning through healing item stockpile), not enough regen to actually deal with chip damage in lategame phase (40min+), vedal ignores damage outright, and stuns enemies, so many things that make vedal far better

cerulean bear
#

Anny's teleport being bugged I think only killed me a single time

#

Across like 30 games at least

unreal thunder
#

it's a matter of figuring out who's best, and I made it pretty clear I figured that by changing the meta entirely from anny/evil to vedal/evil within a day of playing

cerulean bear
#

Nah I didn't have problems with healing items

unreal thunder
#

and that isn't because I'm good at the game, it's because this really isn't that hard to figure out

cerulean bear
#

I avoid enough fireballs that it's not an issue

unreal thunder
#

you never figured out an actual decent scoring strategy to actually need that amount of healing items lategame, ofc you didn't have problems with it

#

lol

#

I discovered the optimal strats that any decent holocure player could figure out, and holocure is a master class in survivors-type game design

#

I'm just one of the potential hundreds that could've gotten 50k

#

30k is nothing and 40k is easy

cerulean bear
#

I'll boot it up tomorrow and take a look at your scores. I haven't actually done that yet. It's almost 3:30, I need sleep

unreal thunder
#

I thought I posted my scores already, I have 2 near-50k scores and 3 40k+ scores, and I easily could've flooded the entire leaderboard and wiped out everyone else's scores myself

#

but that would be pointless so I didn't

cerulean bear
#

Magic survival is what inspired vampire survivors lol. It has its flaws, but it's a good game too

unreal thunder
#

holocure is much better than vampire survivors lol

#

am aware magical survival was the predecessor

cerulean bear
#

I'm going to bed now. Good night

unreal thunder
#

gn

hard moth
#

Ok. I have read everything and also talked with patric about the matter, and here's my best analysis.

  1. The current meta isn’t exactly the most fun. It involves a lot of AFK and as Miffin said, playing just to win will lead to burnout. The meta also needs to be enjoyable, not sitting in one place and being idle. My current solution is to make other upgrades similarly viable, mainly by making them stronger. I'll also be modifying fireball so that the ‘afk’ strategy is harder to achieve. Being able to afk should be a satisfying result of a lot of setup, etc. not 15 min of rerolling for the fireball.

  2. A drone cap will be put in place to prevent lag, but not a hard level cap. Mainly, if players really want to, I want them to be able to get all existing upgrades, but have it be so that this may not be the best thing to do. Main way of doing this would be via endless upgrades, which will be introduced around lvl 35 so that alternate upgrades then the main ones can be chosen instead. (So a cap via player choice. Soft cap ig? A cap that is not forced but suggested by design.)

tired haven
#

welldoneneuro Sounds good to me
Now for the hard part: make the game not lag in lategame

#

(it's probably not that hard, the XP combining should do most of the work)

cerulean bear
#

One thing that could potentially enable afking easily is the ability to make the AI sit. You can easily move to a spot where enemies don't spawn because they only spawn near the ai. If enemies could conditionally chase after you, that would probably fix that.

100% filter is also a culprit now, as you can just use evil as a fortress. Both HP and filter directives with top performance AI means you do crazy damage and have none of the downside you used to. If parenting obsession was 10% instead, this will stop people from sitting in a corner with evil protecting you. It also stops you from building up a critical mass of healing items which also probably lag the game

If infinite drones are still a thing, could a cooldown be added to how often they can hit? I found they are stronger than fireball and carry in the late game once fireball starts struggling. The last minute of this shows how strong a single unupgraded pizza is, so if you had pizzas fully upgraded and a modest 30 of them, you kinda shred everything.

Oops, forgot to link the video in question neurOMEGALUL
#1184879711399190649 message

hard moth
#

uploading patch rn

#

will sleep soon after

#

endless upgrades implemented, hopefully they aren't broken neuroPray

tired haven
#

Hopefully the lag won't be as bad (and hopefully you can get more optimizations soon)

hard moth
#

( leaderboard probably won't open again until I figure the balans out )

#

by then achievements probably would have been implemented I need to start testing the server soon

#

uploaded!

unreal thunder
#

woot

tired haven
tired haven
#

It seems like the +10% attack thing breaks the attack multiplier from HP

#

Not 100% sure though

cerulean bear
#

seasoned babysitter doesn't give evasion

image.png
tired haven
#

I can't tell if 100% filter and the second HP upgrade directive still exist in this build or I'm just getting very unlucky

cerulean bear
#

it didn't show up in the collectable despite already having one, and now this happened.

image.png
#

it didn't give a pizza

#

endless upgrades might be breaking after picking them once. it happened to hp

cerulean bear
#

drone automation also doesnt give pizzas

cerulean bear
#

ten tin cans sound effect only plays in the top left corner of the map

#

also, for like 45ish seconds the second boss wasn't taking damage at all, and the first died from one bullet

cerulean bear
#

yeah, at full health the first boss dies to 1 damage from a rum bottle

hard moth
#

Ill fix it once I can work

#

Outside rn

hard moth
#

fix uploading soon

hard moth
#

done!

hard moth
thick bane
#

I'm assuming it's a no for this? @hard moth

hard moth
#

oh, probably not for now, but I have been considering a straight up mobile version, since Godot allows for that. Just, more in the future.

hard moth
#

new version being uploaded it should be up in like 5 minutes

#

or well now

tired haven
#

Is 100% filter still a thing? And the second HP directive?

hard moth
#

not gonna touch balancing until I understand how to properly do it NeuroSip

#

so just bugfixes for now

#

uploading a new patch which fixes some minor stuff like audio issues

tired haven
#

Well, I'll be testing out the new patches once I get back to local

cerulean bear
#

so a few things

both virtuality focus and parenting focus give 10% according to their descriptions when they should be 5%

from the main menu neuro's speed is listed as 75 and evils hp as 60

starting with the second boss, every boss seems to be completely immune to damage for at least 30 seconds. the health bar doesn't move even after being hit by several nukes at 130 damage, then a very noticeable change once they start taking damage

all that aside, enemies start doing absurd damage really quickly. i find it to be a race for 100% filter when using neuro so i can safely take top performance AI and blast them. the best game i've had so far as i've been figuring things out was ended while i was running from said invincible boss, and neuro with 68 hp ran into 1 knight.

also, because neuro cant hurt me and gets 1 shot by anything, the ground is littered with unusable healing items. they just build up constantly with no way to get rid of them

tired haven
#

It's possible to get into a state where Evil can't do any damage and thus can't heal

cerulean bear
#

1 HP top performance AI I assume

tired haven
#

Yep

#

Seems like 100% filter does not currently disable interaction with Evil's projectiles, which still means we get that annoying noise

cerulean bear
#

Getting constant AI damage would probably fix it, but it would be too slow

tired haven
#

Can confirm, bosses are completely invulnerable after they spawn

#

By the way, did I mention the massive audio latency the game gets at times?

#

And endless upgrades definitely don't work

cerulean bear
#

Yeah, I noticed the audio too, but I thought it was lag lol

tired haven
#

It's probably the game waiting a bit before starting each sound effect in a sequence

cerulean bear
#

Also, when in the directive selection menu, if you pause the game and then unpause, the game unpauses while the directive menu is still open

tired haven
#

At least enemy scaling certainly works again

tired haven
cerulean bear
#

Happens every time I do it

tired haven
#

Well, there's still certainly stuff to be fixed

cerulean bear
#

Yep. But there were a lot of changes/additions so it was kind of to be expected

hard moth
#

ok so for the bosses being invulnerable that is most likely a bug with the health bar, will fix that.

hard moth
hard moth
hard moth
#

oh

#

the continue button

#

plz use 'esc' for now neuroMahiro

#

ill patch these tom since they shouldn't take too long, but major balancing will be still after a while

tired haven
hard moth
#

Forgot the continue button existed neuroTehe

tired haven
tired haven
hard moth
tired haven
#

Well, when I tried them with the latest version I have downloaded the endless upgrades did, in fact, do nothing
At least the one for attack constant

hard moth
#

Hmm will check

tired haven
#

And just checked, it is indeed the latest uploaded build

hard moth
#

Oh

#

I forgot to change the name in the latest

#

So name of the last twos the same

#

but attack constant might be broken ill check anyways

cerulean bear
#

Well I can have multiple drones and it no longer says null so neuroShrug

tulip frost
#

I just realised i've been neglecting this project for a while, I should probably try to sit down and fix the upgrade I assigned to myself cat_dizzy

hard moth
tulip frost
#

Fair enough, can always share what i've done at some point if need be

tired haven
#

When more bugfixes?

hard moth
#

Tomarrow. Working on TCG today.

tired haven
tired haven
#

Essay?

image.png
cerulean bear
#

Yeah. Just more in depth thoughts on the current balance. I figure it might be helpful

#

I'm also kinda distracted by other things neurOMEGALUL

tired haven
cerulean bear
#

Typing this out on a couple hours of sleep, so bear with me. (I'm also still waiting on the traveling merchant in terraria for 1 item and I spent like 7-8 hours waiting yesterday evilStare )

So I've been thinking about the balance a bit more, but for most of the attacks I find it hard to get a good grasp on them at the moment. Neuro's nukes are the exception as 8 nukes is a lot. The second +1 nuke actually gives 2, which I assume wasn't intentional? 6 might be a bit much still, but that can be figured out later

As for the main things that need balancing, I think it's honestly just the amount of damage enemies deal and also top performance AI. Once these are fixed it should hopefully be much easier to get a good grasp on upgrades.

To go a bit more in depth on these, the amount of damage enemies do currently is way too much. While it likely is part skill issue, I struggle to even get to the endless upgrades. I don't know what the enemy stats were in 1.4, but I assume the base damage was 1 across the board, and was balanced around. While directives allow for 50% more max HP, everything but slimes deal at least 4 times more damage.

What I'm thinking is something like this
Weak goblin: from 4 to 1
Kobold: from 4 to 2
Soldier: from 6 to 2
Goblin: from 8 to 3
Knight: from 12 to 4
Elf archer: from 12 to 3

Adding a damage reduction from enemies upgrade is also an option, but the enemies damage should still be toned down a tad imo even with this

Splitting because I maaay have hit the discord character limit ReallyInnocent

#

As for top performance AI, it's because it's a separate multiplier. Neuro can hit up to 2.72x, and evil hits 3x. That's on top of confession letter/crazy robot body being a 200% increase (in other words, 3x) for a total of up to 9x damage from the starting values. It's also the only source of a second multiplier, so it's a must-take. You do so much damage though that you need 100% filter.

Honestly, having a second multiplier for the AI is fine, but it likely needs a rework (and maybe other changes) to make it balanced. While it is conditional, because it's the only source of this multiplier, you end up going for the same 5 directives in the end (HP, filter, and this). There's currently no real downside as 100% filter covers friendly fire, and enemies one shotting you after a bit of scaling covers the reduced damage below 25 (which should probably be capped because evil cant really heal at low enough damage).

I could probably ramble more, but I think I've done enough of that vedalTehe

#

Didn't intend for it to be so long, but not unexpected neurOMEGALUL

candid dune
hard moth
# cerulean bear Typing this out on a couple hours of sleep, so bear with me. (I'm also still wai...

Im currently studying how other games handle balancing, which will probably take some time. At least two months.

After that however, I'm going to go through each upgrade and directive.

Enemies and the difficulty curve is also going to be balanced, I do think enemies are a bit too powerfull at the start rn.

Directives are going to be reworked. Going to do an analysis on my own game, and calculate how each directive affects each upgrade.

#

Patric's helping me on the case studies of the other games. Learning a lot of useful things,

Of which includes my game being really not beginner friendly. I should add a tutorial at some point. neuroMahiro

#

Until im finished with learning and perfecting balancing, ill most likely work on parts of the game which won't be affected. Mainly, art and better UI/UX. (I.e. ability to view exact upgrade statistics.)

#

All this does mean achievements will be delayed even further. The one thing this update was for neurowheeze

cold egret
hard moth
#

Yah itlll be a separate mode probably. Future plan thou, much after the current one.

cold egret
#

makes sense

cerulean bear
#

Yeah, a tutorial for new players would be a good idea. I still remember checking the wiki for Minecraft and somewhat with terraria neurOMEGALUL

#

Theres still a couple directives I haven't actually taken yet, namely switch cooldown and the revive so I guess I'll have a chance to test those

tired haven
#

Are we still getting bugfixes though?

hard moth
#

working on them rn

tired haven
hard moth
#

hoping no more bugs after this. Will be really short on time the next couple days NeuroSip starting today.

hard moth
#

Had no time to finish my patch neuroBwaa hoping at least an hr tomarrow to work on this

#

Traveling and stuff so very busy this week

hard moth
tired haven
#

Just do your best to try to get the bug patches out at some point so I can experiment with that game again

thick bane
#

Do you think we will ever get a indie vtubers survivor game?

sharp meadow
cerulean bear
#

If it gets migrated, link this one so we can find it easily

hard moth
#

getting slightly less busy. Will slowly start working on the project again (hopefully). Will make thread