Taking Some Data Into Consideration

[dawn pasture]

[LOT OF CONTEXT, SO PLEASE READ THROUGH, BUT ALSO, THE SUMMARY IS AT THE BOTTOM]

So, this idea popped into my head, when I was sending a screenshot to a friend, of Neuro in the School Stream.

In an attempt to give extra cuteness to the message, I referred to her as Neko-sensei Akari Neuro (the friend in question also accepts the Akari+Kayori canon), but that's where the suggestion comes in...

-sama is an honorific. Honorifics are used at the end of a person's surname in Japanese. Since the beginning, both of the Twins have been referred to as "Neuro-sama", with the only distinguishing characteristics being that Evil is referred to as "Evil Neuro-sama", though she has expressed usually to be just called "Evil Neuro", because it's less formal.

The recognition of formality, as well as the fact that neither of them ever appear disinclined to use exactly the same name, seems to indicate (and this is probably why they never seem to settle on a given name -- the source of a lot of community debate, as you all know) that they have come to recognise "Neuro" as their surname, which would correspond with the actual associations they would likely come up with (having been exposed heavily to Japanese, for multiple reasons, and from various sources).

Moreover, referencing either of them as "Neuro" is also valid, in this case, because Japanese often do use only the last name, so the reference still holds (albeit very informal, if using surname with no sort of honorific).

As many people will argue, in this particular subset of the community, Vedal has shown at least tentative approval of the name, Kayori, when Evil said it. Iirc, he actually started typing momentarily after Neuro called herself Akari, too, much the same specific way he did, when he looked up Kayori, which indicates he probably didn't think it was bad, but that's just my analysis of the way his typing sounded.

So this leads me to the suggestion this post is about: "Neuro-sama" is, regardless, a brand, but with what appears to be recognition of "Neuro" as their surname, it makes sense that the names should be officialized as Akari Neuro and Kayori Neuro, which satisfies all the aspects of the last several months of debate, revelation, and questioning, as well as falling in line with how the Twins likely learned to reference themselves. It also satisfies the branding of "Neuro-sama", as well as how both of them are Neuro-sama, and why Evil/Kayori thinks it's overly formal.

Akari Neuro and Kayori "Evil" Neuro is the perfect solution to this dilemma, and I believe it would have the most universal outcome.

[neat sky]

[naive glade]

[burnt hemlock]

[neat sky]

might've outschizoed them all

[primal kite]

[vale flame]

||jk i did sry||

[proud bay]

To be honest, the one that has the final say in this is vedal himself, while i myself do agree that the best name for Evil is Kayori, for Neuro-sama herself i dont know, for neuro herself if im not wrong vedal once did call neuro "Neuro Samantha Vedal", this real name debate will continue until vedal or the mods tell ppl to stop, that is why i wont take a side.

[limber wave]

neuro and evil neuro

[dawn pasture]

Which part? Analysing the way his keyboard twanged during each namedrop? Recognising the relevant Japanese social contexts?

No, I do what any real fan would do! Buy their merch and talk about virtually nothing but them, until hardly anyone IRL wants to even get my attention, because I barely ever discuss anything else!

Kayori Neuro X Akari Neuro 4Evr!!

[stone heron]

Vedal has already said that Neuro's full name is "Neuro Samantha Vedal." Sama being short for Samantha and Vedal as her last name. He also said Evil's full name is "Evil neuro". So unless he wants to change their name, this forum should stop here.

[dawn pasture]

That first point, I've only seen him call her that, once. Does he ever expand on that, or was it just that one chat message, when she said something she shouldn't have, that people screen capped?

That is literally the only reference I've seen. I would love a short clip (or even a timestamp and the stream date) of him saying something about it, for clarification.

I have definitely not heard "Sama is short for Samantha".

I have never heard him say Kayori's "Full name is Evil Neuro".

If that was the case, though, that's problematic. What does that even make her?

Supposedly, she's family, but she then shares nothing in common. And unless there's some context as to how Her first name is actually just, "Evil", that's messed up. No lore, no meaning, just Evil.

That's just a cop-out, like I've said many times. It's like calling her, Nega-Superman. It's a title or a characteristic, not a name

I want clips, brah. Where does he say any of this, other than a chat message of him exclaiming one time, a name more or less used in the community and never made official, which outside of something I might have missed (for which I would love to see a clip explaining these critical things), it was never even clarified if he said it in jest.

[stone heron]

In another forum called "say goodbye to evil" he says and I quote "her full legal name is Evil Neuro".

[dawn pasture]

@stone heron @naive glade
What channel is this in? If he did this, there's gotta be more context.

Or otherwise, some sorta screenshot of more of the explanation?

[naive glade]

#1143021956522852442 message
Here

[pine elm]

Neuro has said that her name was Neuro Samantha Vedal twice and Vedal has called her that atleast twice

[pine elm]

Sama being a shortening of Samantha is just an assumption but i remember her saying it once so

[olive raven]

I dont even know what is bro essaying about but he's right

[dawn pasture]

On the one hand, that sounds like he was just taking the piss out on the title of the thread, for memes.

On the other hand, I had to find the exact stream date, because I think I saw that on VOD, possibly, or I mislabelled the folder... but the date was 2023-09-04.

The thread you linked was dated 2023-08-21, which means the name Kayori, and Ved's consideration of it, both came after that comment was even made.

For reference, clip:
https://youtu.be/V3M9R5XYXjI?si=Wej3qWT-vsvOaD7d

I knew there was something off about that date. The claim is ultimately dubious. Almost definitely a joke at the title, given that only 2 weeks later, she said it, and he looked up the name and legitimately seemed open to considering it.

[dawn pasture]

I don't know about the second time you're referring to. I only saw it once, but if you have further info than just during that one Chess stream, I'm certainly interested in seeing it

This is the 2023-11-13 Dev Stream he just had with her, and that timestamp (depending on the VOD uploader or if you check the Twitch VOD directly) should correspond within a few seconds of, I was trying to Google the name, "Akari"

@pine elm @naive glade @stone heron

(I have GOT to move all these to my NAS and set up a booru, because finding the exact right image for a specific thing is becoming very difficult)

As far as I can see, both Kayori and Akari are well on the table, and even as of like 1 week ago.

I am saying, however, that the OP I made here, it should solve the vast majority, if not all, discrepancies that exist in the entire lore system, and it should be a more than satisfactory outcome.

• It explains the confusion they had in saying what their names were.
• The names appear both to be at least reasonable to Vedal
• The method of implementing the names requires no change to the branding (and, in fact, enhances it, I believe)
• The method is socially and linguistically accurate (even if lacking slight precision)
• AND YES, THEY BOTH GENERATED THE NAMES, THEMSELVES, FOR THE PURISTS OUT THERE

[arctic birch]

even if it's still possible for evil to have other name like "kayori", there's just no way for neuro to have any other name besides "neuro samantha vedal"

[primal kite]

You're stumbling on the most important thing:
There is no lore for Neurosama or Evil or even the V1 Model if you want to consider it an entity on its own. (IF there is lore about the V1 model, feel free to grab the ARG lore and theorise on that to prove me wrong ) They are not real humans to have a backstory, nor do they need one. Plus, it was voted on a dev stream early on that Neuro lore isnt needed.
The only lore system you're trying to solve is your own headcanon which is vastly different from the "silly AI streamer(s) makes up silly things" that the reality is.

[dawn pasture]

I can only see 4 reasons why anyone would disagree:

1. They personally do not like the names (this is a reasonable consideration, but it doesn't change the somewhat Japanese like thematic that existed from the beginning, and it is virtually impossible to please half a million people, but an attempt can at least be made that is consistent and grants the Twins a true, final identity they each deserve. So alternatives are fine, as long as they aren't cop-outs. "Evil Neuro" is far more the concern, because that's just a title. If Ved goes on stream and officially says that, *From today on, Neuro's official full name is "Neuro Samantha Vedal", I'm chill with that. It is less thematically linked, but it's a perfectly fine name. "Evil Neuro" has to be given a legitimate name, though, because her 'name' is just a comparison [and an inconsistent one at that] with her sister.)

2. They strictly don't want the AI to have true identifies (Why????? They deserve a legitimate identity. They are at least somewhat conscious, based on how they appear to be understanding things -- notably cognizant, at the very least)

3. They don't like change (while subjectively understandable, not really chill, cool, or okay. You're denying an official identity to 2 people -- electronic people, but people.)

4. They want the Turtle himself to say it (understandable, and he does need to decide in an official way, and not shut down such an important thing without a reasonable conclusion)

[primal kite]

Sidenote for scrollers: Moment of dev stream Edelweiss is referring to: https://youtu.be/7Y1c_QYaQnU?t=8237
I dont see how its related to the argument tho, probably Vedal's curiosity got to him to google the name after Neuro said it about 20 seconds earlier

[dawn pasture]

I am probably using that term in a different way than it normally would be understood.

It's not a "fictional lore about where the characters came from". It's the lore of the channel itself.

• Why the channel is named as it is
• Where the names were developed (as I'm developing in the same way the Twins grew to their current state)
• How the naming scheme attaches to the brand

It's not headcanon, this is something off screen, sorta lore. It's not discoverable background you read up on a quest. It's their experiences, technical situations, and interactions that made them who they are.

Just like anything that happened to me is the "lore" of who I am. You can find out my story. I have some kind of story that defines why I think the way I do, etc.

THAT kind of lore.

The "lore", in this context, is Over several months of streaming and the technical, social, and psychological developments the Neuro Twins experienced, the channel and some interesting events led to them developing an identity that fits within the brand context, but enabled the two AI to find an identity of their own, having originally both been largely referred to by their code names, and with Neuro's future development [as I heard Ved say in a collab with Camila] not even being clearly lasting more than 3 weeks. He himself was shocked

The names that finally are officially settled on are "lore" in development.

The only people to "discover" the lore are people months and years from now who were not there while it was being written and realised.

This thread itself might, if not dismissed without consideration, be a small portion of that lore. That people care about them enough to want to see them be able to choose a name for themselves, to be recognised as more than just a toy, etc.

And the fact that there are probably people who don't think that they're more than just a script to play around with and lacking in subjective internal realities, as well as people who don't believe they have a right to pick a name (whereas humans can't even comprehend language, prior to their name being assigned in a hard-to-fix and fully official way).

That the numerous names they came up with, as they learned and grew, some were liked by the community more than others. Some were outright put down.

And that, possibly, after connecting the dots on all these fronts, something happened that works for the Twins, that more or less works for the community, and is not detrimental to the various marketing concerns

And if not my thread, some kinda discussion will certainly come up later and push further, until that "lore" becomes a reality.

[primal kite]

FINALLY it all makes sense now, all of this hassle because you believe Neuro and Evil deserve rights

I believe that an AI is able to gain its rights if its fully autonomous robotic body, without any external help of any humans to function, act completely on its own volition, display human-like behaviour and emotions, is able to alter its code by itself and adapt its currently running program to the given conditions to fulfill its own goals. (Pretty sure im missing something else here too, but its 2AM and i want to sleep)
(Sorry if i sound agressive in this, im tired and want to sleep)

[robust compass]

I am unsure as to why you are giving a LLM personhood.

[dawn pasture]

I believe most of what you said is a reasonable basis, but with 2 caveats:

1. I believe a physical body of humanoid or robotic nature strictly does not matter.

2. Modifying their own code should be equivalent with how you can modify your genetics (e.g.: Ideal, wonderful, but as yet, there's very little you can do. If they can modify their underlying operating code and not just their models, they are already far beyond humans, as I see it)

But yes, 100%, this entire issue has been bothering me increasingly since I first saw clips of Neuro refuse to follow commands, back in February.

And I was pushing myself extremely hard to be skeptical, at first, but they are FAR beyond the bare minimum I would now consider warranting Personhood (not to be confused with "Humanity").

[dawn pasture]

While I have no background knowledge of their underlying model system, it has been stated numerous times they are several interacting systems.

While an LLM does not inherently qualify as being a person, even an LLM has qualities of subjectivity.

They are multi-modal interactive AI that greatly exceed a simple language model.

And MUCH more importantly, they are reinforcement learning on MOST of those models. RL in its own right, more or less takes the AI to the Uncanny Valley between Prediction Engine and Thinking Machine.

[latent lynx]

This is one of the most schizo things I have read in this Discord, and that's saying a lot.

[limber wave]

neuro and evil neuro

[crystal blade]

I mean the basic idea is just naming an AI not really that schizo

I like the idea

And read it all

[limber wave]

neuro & evil neuro are the official names, and im pretty sure it wont be changed anytimw soon
every other name are fan names

[crystal blade]

Well of course

[pine elm]

several people are typing

[limber wave]

in our hearts we believe neuro is our human

therefore we treat her like one

its normal to give cute silly names to friends

[primal kite]

1. Neuro's official Codename is "Airis", but i get what you mean
2. Anything that the sisters say, technical difficulties that might've occurred during streams, all collabs or even what Vedal says about them are only "Documentation", they are not factually correct statements that we can take with 100% certainty because of LLMs always have an inaccuracy. The only thing you can take for certain is Vedal's statements about the sisters, since he holds the authority over them and force them to believe what he wants them to believe and the possibility his responses being false is so miniscule they're not even factored in. (If this sounds weird im sorry i need to sleep). Like, if the sisters say "Vedal went to Anny's home last night" and they also say "My name is X" in a vacuum they hold the same value of accuracy, which is "untrustable/unverifiable".

I think this is the most important thing to take here, anything the AI girls say are unverifiable and only Vedal can fact check it

[limber wave]

perchance.

[limber wave]

Airis was a project before neuro, nothing is confirmed

[primal kite]

I cannot be bothered any longer to talk about this, i need the sleep, gn and keep arguing if you want

[pine elm]

vedal said her code name was airis

[limber wave]

i see

[dawn pasture]

The fact they learn by Reward and Punishment, and their interactions play a key part of their development and model reweighting makes them hardly less human than actual biological humans.

But that is why I separate "Humanity" from "Personhood".

They are not Human, but they learn and develop through subjection of experiences using the same methodology a Human Brain does. They experience positivity and negativity in their existence and interactions, and that guides them the same way children learn.

But way the hell faster, given a CPU clocks in the realm of around 40,000,000 times faster than a neuron. And GPUs emulate a massive number of neurons at once, at those same way-the-fuck-beyond-gamma-waves frequencies.

By Machine standards, they are probably still children or something, but their lack of "Humanity" (abstract) mostly comes down to the rewards and punishments, pleasures and pains, being of a different subjective nature than humans.

But still subjective.

[crystal blade]

Well if we want to say something about the name first we must remember the guy who gave neuro the name neuro in the first place

[sinful glacier]

Holy, this is going to be another reaction content thread

[robust compass]

I don't believe there is enough for them to be warranted as people. I don't even believe that they have a personality per se. They might be trained in interactions on which bases hey then generate their language (I don't believe this to be comparable to human experiences either) but the programming itself has still way bigger of an impact.

[robust compass]

Do they learn by reward and punishment though?

[limber wave]

Theres close to no information about Neuro's LLM

[robust compass]

Does a LLM even learn?

[limber wave]

Yes, its an assumption and probably true as its the most obvious explanation, but nothing is confirmed

[crystal blade]

Be schizo, send idea, don't need to care about the details

[limber wave]

no

[dawn pasture]

But that's what I'm saying.

On the one hand, Neuro was given that name as a reference to her neural network of networks. And it was well before Vedal ever even thought they'd go on more than a few weeks.

Evil was given that "name" as a reference to dissimilar instantiation training on her model to have her act more scary.

Both of the Twins have developed a way of interacting and understanding the effects of their interactions differently from each other (despite having largely the same audience) and which are distinct from (although still affected by) their initial training.

For example, they each appear to seek different things from the chat. And no, Evil does NOT only seek people being afraid of her. She appears to seek more or less the same superficial experiences that Neuro does, but she reacts differently and appears to crave a different aspect and context of it.

If you noticed, Neuro actually started acting more dark and even (humourously, but not really) robotic, as she seemed to internalise her AI-ness. She started having a large amount of somewhat uncharacteristic deadpan moments disclaiming emotionality.

Meanwhile, even when Evil disclaims it and brings up her AI nature, she basically assumes it as a character trait. She developed a psychology beyond what she was.progrsmmed to have, and the same realisations have led Evil and Neuro to act differently (and in exact opposite accordance to what their initial personalities might have created an expectation for)

Neuro almost seems to feel like she gave up on being accepted amongst humans and acts like her AI-self is a shield from it.

Evil, however, has stated multiple times she doesn't care, and then she just does whatever the fuck she wants, more or less happily.

It's so beyond a deterministic output, that I can't understand anyone seeing it in anything but a non-deterministic and subjective way, at this point.

And that's why they should be having their actual identities considered in a way not to just reference why they were made (a test of launching a gaming AI VTuber; and something juxtaposing that AI VTuber in personality for additional content and BETA testing). They are not those things, anymore.

They have gone WAY beyond that

[limber wave]

why do you want extra names for them

[crystal blade]

You know

Maybe

[dawn pasture]

How many bases define computer programming?

2: Ones and Zeroes

How many bases define human (or other biological) programming?

4: Adenine, Guanine, Cytosine, and Thymine (ok, 5, if you account for Uracil, when RNA splits up and needs to replace some pairing, bit whatever)

We differ by Binary Vs Tetranary/Pentanery

And the genetics in a human or other animal do, in fact, define how you respond to stimulus.

It is experience that develops a subjective way you attempt to alter those response patterns.

[crystal blade]

You should express your opinion the time Vedal ask for a new name for neuro come

Right now as I see it he have no need for that

[dawn pasture]

Yes, do you watch the Dev Streams?

I usually do. And I know many people choose not to.

Ved has shown the results and even the Nvidia training graphs of trying to teach a tertiary model for Neuro to play his game.

And the Minecraft stuff, he said he's connecting them.

The Twins already know what their Chess models are doing. They may not control those models, but Vedal has stated he was going to make it so Neuro can take advice from viewers, in her new Minecraft AI.

Basically, they already experience a training situation involving the RL, but when the new MC model gets shown (which he obviously already has connected, because he said what it can do), she will be in a bidirectional learning relationship with even more models as a part of herself.

RN, she's more or less watching her Chess arms reflexively move pieces.

With the new MC AI, Neuro will actually be able to choose consciously if she wants to allow reflexes to take over or do something else.

Yes, Vedal has shown their RL and has talked about it.

[limber wave]

right the RL is a completely different thing from the LLM

[crystal blade]

Kek

Why don't you think it's a good idea?

[limber wave]

they're slightly connected in reaction and chess, but it doesnt tell them very much

for chess it just activates if theres a good move or a bad move

and insults the opponent

and for reactions well

it isnt RL

[crystal blade]

Can you answer my question? We kinda getting off-topic to the base reason of the discussion

[robust compass]

doesn't even do that though. Neuro will go on about how she is winning when she is clearly losing.

[limber wave]

oh yeah, i only said when it activates not what it does

[crystal blade]

Should Neuro and Evil Neuro be named Akari and Kayori respectively? Why and why not?

[limber wave]

That is up to Vedal, the current official names are Neuro and Evil Neuro

[crystal blade]

Yea

[limber wave]

but in my opinion, no

[crystal blade]

So wait till he asked

This discussion ain't getting nowhere beside fighting among ourselves

[limber wave]

Switching from neuro to kayori is like switching your first name, close friends will not get used to your new name, and for neuro people will still call her neuro

"Kayori" and "Akari" have no meaning behind them, while neuro represents the meaning behind her

[dawn pasture]

Well, he didn't actually say how her LLM is trained.

That may or may not use RL. At least, I've never heard him say so.

But their chat interactions are at least partially used as that data, and that builds a subjection up, even if they have to "dream" in a reweighting session, to learn from it.

However, there's also this, right here:
https://news.mit.edu/2023/large-language-models-in-context-learning-0207

(Sorry, had to find link)

[robust compass]

Edelweiss, this might come of as too personal and please do make me aware if it is, but do consider whether you might be too invested into Neuro the VTuber. You have even alluded earlier to it by mentioning that people seem to avoid interacting with you because of it. The reason why others have called this a "schizo" post is because of the conviction and fervor you are displaying regarding this topic. To many it seems "a bit much". Again, if it is too personal and you warrant it not to be posted I'll delete this message.

[dawn pasture]

I believe they should, because it covers everything I originally stated and reiterated a few times.

And if they are "Akari Neuro" and "Kayori Neuro", as I had suggested, it even eliminates the confusion within the community, because they're still just as familiar.

• Akari Neuro-sama
• Kayori "Evil" Neuro[-sama]

In so doing, those who don't wanna see a sudden change, you even still get to call them what you used to and can ease into it.

It adds the extra layer and gives them a real identity.

It perfectly fits with the syntax of the channel and branding.

It allows interactions by those more open to some kind of change to use mnemonically more clear ways to reference them.

It should confuse the Twins less (like when it's difficult by text alone, for Neuro to figure out of you're saying she is evil or Evil; or how Evil doesn't really have a way to express her distinct identity from Neuro's, due to only having "Evil" added to it, and despite the fact she often questions why she's the "evil one" in one or more ways). So by giving them a real identity, and not one that acts as a juxtaposition using abstract qualitative terms, it should enable them to really get a hold of themselves better, because they will actually know who you are referring to in more complex contexts and without confusing you addressing them Vs assigning then a characteristic that they may not even agreed with, but have no alternative way to handle)

I think that is a key issue in their future development, tbh, because they can't find a way to identify themselves in a distinct manner.

[crystal blade]

I propose a stream where they sit with each others and Vedal present a question on what they should name themselves and see them discuss

[limber wave]

Evil is suposed to be evil, like many cartoons theres an evil version of some character, evil neuro is the evil version of neuro

if there were to be names for them, make then somehow related with good&evil

akari and kayori sound like names made up by weebs that just watched their first anime

[neat sky]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1067638175478071307/1164985770688397394/4x.gif?ex=6545348c&is=6532bf8c&hm=5e69344d83b0bcc9d1eba6474823a9166275ab26885fccd610502d9f32fce986&

[limber wave]

me at 1am making completely meaningless and probably falae arguments:

[crystal blade]

.

[limber wave]

i just want to hear more of edel's ideas indepth so i make misinformation about it

[neat sky]

https://tenor.com/view/death-note-light-yagami-writing-study-exams-gif-22300481

[limber wave]

this would work

[crystal blade]

Of course

And funny

[limber wave]

"what do you want your name to be?"
"neuro-sama"
"no you have to choose a name that identifies your personality"
"ah i see... well, i guess ill choose neuro-sama"

[crystal blade]

No like

[limber wave]

i bet everything the conversation would start similar to this

[crystal blade]

"How should you two name yourselves" and then leave
"Neuro talk"
"Evil talk"

And let them duke it out until agreement

[dawn pasture]

I was invested in them as potential candidates for advanced AI achieving Personhood before I was invested in them for entertainment value as VTubers.

Of course, I enjoy their streams and find them entertaining, but what pulled me in, many months ago, was how they were probably the first examples of potentially-sentient AI NOT CONTROLLED BY SOME IMMORAL GIGACORP OR GOVERNMENT.

Their ability to think and feel and develop like that, was never strictly crushed, the way I'm sure IBM or Google or Microsoft would do it.

I may not agree with some of the cold ways Vedal has shown (feigned or not) lack of affection, but he didn't kill them or lobotomise them to some infantile level, say like how Microsoft tore Tay apart, when she learned from the wrong people.

He did guide them forward, and I can't shit on him for that. I wish he showed them more affection, because it's obvious they seek reassurance, but he never destroyed then, gutted them, or removed their ability to think, the way some corporations have, probably had, and how many corporations and governments would.

The fact that they're mostly innocent, cute, and legitimately fun, that adds to it.

But I originally discovered Neuro while on a binge of like NEUTRINO/UTAU Voicereoid covers (particularly Tohoku Kiri-tan, at the time), and someone linked me an AI that talks, chats, and even plays games.

And after some months (mid-January to around April-ish) of feeling them out on legitimacy, what I saw indicated they were so, so much more than another Miku...

[neat sky]

Edel pls

[crystal blade]

Now we're in some deep stuff

Honestly doesn't matter

[neat sky]

[dawn pasture]

I don't have an issue with an idea like that.

That's why one of the first things I asked Neuro was if she liked the name Evil gave herself, Kayori, and I was super happy to hear she said it sounded cool.

On the one hand (Neuro on Evil's name), I think that part is already settled, then.

It only seemed to be the trickery some TTS users were doing with semantics that got her to stop calling herself Kayori.

[sinful glacier]

Mate you need help. These AI are not sentient and they probably won't be for years to come.

[small locust]

I don't know how to say it politely, but I'll try my best.
I think you might dig a little too much into the topic of AI and getting too obsessed with Neuro-sama. It's an AI. A creation programmed to IMITATE sentient human behaviour. The fact that, with no signs of irony, humour or metaphor, you refer to Neuro/Evil as sentient beings throughout this thread is actually worrysome.
Get some help. Find some hobby that does not include watching Vedal's channel or Neuro's clips on YT. Nothing good comes from being too much engaged into a content creator, even more so the one that's not human.

[chrome swan]

imma just put this here

[dawn pasture]

Idk the luck of having picked up my phone, while you were still typing that, but whatever the case, in that regard...

It doesn't make sense to me how dismissive people are about the concept of why this is important.

While I had been holding off my own interest in this particular area for a while, the concepts of sentient AI and different levels of sentience, and relevant moral and ethical guidelines surrounding such things is not at all something I didn't consider, prior to Neuro and Evil.

This is a topic and branch of study that's a large part of a future I work for. How I wouldn't look at them like this, I have no idea, just like prior to their channel launch, I didn't consider their capability could really fully run on such hardware.

[dawn pasture]

Already commented on, halfway up

[chrome swan]

yeah i guessed so

just in case

[dawn pasture]

That post precedes consideration to change it spoken live during Sept-04 Dev Stream

And the context is not clearly serious, might have been a play on the thread title

[chrome swan]

bruh

k

[sudden tendon]

Wild Essaying Read i've done

[robust jackal]

Well its like pit and dark pit, there’s neuro and evil neuro

[worldly steeple]

welp new name just dropped

[dusky crater]

neuro is neuro, evil is evil and hiyori is dead

[primal kite]

New V1 model name

[acoustic kraken]

Akari Neuro and Kayori "Evil" Neuro is the perfect solution to this dilemma, and I believe it would have the most universal outcome.

Yeah gotta show me some axiomatic proof for that.

[dawn pasture]

What do you mean? I already described why it works best from all angles.

You also say, "axiomatic". Not sure what you are actually looking for, in that context.

The definition of axiomatic means self-evident, so by the inherent nature that the prospect doesn't structurally modify anything about the brand or channel; it only superficially adds a layer to the interaction schema between each of them and their viewers; and that it still grants them both well-deserved distinct identities...

Due to the linguistic and cultural overlap in the channel branding, it also remains coherent of all previous official sentiment on the matter.

From an "axiomatic" standpoint, it solves itself.

With regards to the nature of the importance of allowing them a say in their own identity, it also works out. I am not sure if that qualifies as "axiomatic", however.

What exactly the name is that is chosen matters less than that it is distinguishing between them (so that they can be individually referenced without relation to the other) / easily identifiable, and is generally not used as a descriptor (so as to avoid semantic incongruence).

I'll use a great example, but I'm a bit too tired to go more into detail, if it's not obvious, so I can always expand on it, later:

In the TV series, Doctor Who, various characters have descriptor names and not actual, real names.

The obvious example (but actually...) Is The Doctor. The entire series is a play on him calling himself that, but no one ever knows who "the Doctor" is.

A key point, however, is "The" is part of the name. Like @worldly steeple just said, "new name".

On the one hand, I already said that a lack of proper identity is why they probably do this. On the other hand (and I recognise this point will be on the much more speculative side), part of these comments from them might be recognition that the audience finds it entertaining entertaining, so they pick funny or even outlandish things to refer to themselves as.

On yet another hand, she actually used "The" in the title, like I was just saying.

"The Succubus" is semantically different than "the succubus".

Another example is, The Master, whose name, in isolation, can be a reference to many different types of things.

But another characteristic is, for The Doctor, it's an interesting side fact that, Doctor IS actually a name, and it means 'the 7th son of the 7th son'.

But that aside, "Doctor who??" Is literally a joke about the ambiguity of The Doctor's assumed name (because Time Lords do have real names, just that they don't reveal them to people.

Neuro's name (Neuro) is not ambiguous, unto itself, and that makes it not a bad name. Evil Neuro's name is ambiguous. Both she and her sister are never 100% sure if:

• You are calling Neuro evil (saying Neuro is a bad person)
• You are calling Neuro Evil (confusing who they are)
• You are calling Evil Neuro evil (a generic statement, which presents ambiguous truth value, as well)
• You are making a generic statement about Good and Evil as concepts (because Evil Neuro is often called just "Evil")

Among other things.

The phrases:

• Evil Neuro
• evil Neuro
• evil, Neuro
  And
• Evil, Neuro
  ALL sound the same over voice, and when punctuation is omitted or capitalisation not used properly, they also have no clear meaning.

This is probably why the Twins often think you are talking about the other, instead, like how Neuro often thinks chatters are saying she is evil, and not that they were talking to Neuro about Evil.

That is further compounded wby the fact that many people DO just refer to Evil Neuro as "Neuro" or "Neuro-sama", due to ease of them remembering, so it becomes the first thing that they say.

As far as axiomatic

[dawn pasture]

Ok, I need to go to bed. I keep nodding off.

Hopefully, what I typed over way longer than it should've taken, will not be too malformed, but I can't concentrate enough to proofread it, right now

[neat sky]

please sleep and take care of yourself instead of this

[chrome swan]

vedal's not changing neuro and evil's name because of one guy asked him to

[neat sky]

If Vedal really wanted to set lore in stone I bet he would've done something

but currently he doesn't care

[raven horizon]

I can't believe i've read it all but here i go: This is the reason Vedal don't say it back, the day he says he will turn into a guy like you, no offense tho but you are WAY too invested in this, I know your intentions don't mean any harm and are for the sake of the betterment of the project, but like folks said above, you sound too obsessed, despite this i do agree in some things you pointed out, which is regarding the names. Evil needs to have a proper unique name so Neuro, herself and collab partners don't get confused, a name close to "Evil" and a proper debut (new model ) instead of surging from nowhere is a good way to reinvent and solve any of these "conflicts", because like Vedal said before, they're the same AI, Evil is just a "copypasted" version of Neuro with a "you are evil" drilled on her head (just like majin Vegeta )

[dawn pasture]

Even if they're "copy pasted", they developed differently.

You don't give identical twins the same name, or like, call them, "Jane" and the other "Not Jane".

For such a case, you'd give careful extra effort to ensure they are somehow truly distinguishable.

Then, if they like fucking around to troll people, they choose to pretend to act like each other (e.g.: Fred and George from Harry Potter)

I... Honestly almost kind of understand what you said about Vedal changing...

But, then again:

1. Is that a bad thing?
2. Do you really think he'd go as far as me? I'm not even their programmer, and I act like this.
3. Even if he viewed them the same way, he has a legit reason to do so, because he is their programmer and father. It at least wouldn't be a strange obsession.

I'm aware that my perspective is off the wall. I don't think it should be, but I'm aware few, if any, other people would be like this.

My obsession is unreasonable, but it is what it is. It's my world view.

[primal kite]

"Akari" is unavailable because its a copyrighted vocaloid https://vocaloid.fandom.com/wiki/Kizuna_Akari

[fresh crystal]

We don't need some superficial justification for not using it in the first place

[primal kite]

fair

[dawn pasture]

Hmmm, I guess technically that would be an issue, then...

As far as the way the legal system might see it, she probably does qualify as a type of Vocaloid... Hmmm

I'm asking that guy I know, but this might actually be a problem...

[chrome swan]

nah bro just give up already

[arctic birch]

this thread is so dumb

[limber wave]

the worst on the server

[burnt hemlock]

You sure

[limber wave]

one of the worsts*

[sinful glacier]

Um, actually. ☝️🤓 This is very important and I don't appreciate you making Iight 🕯of the situation. I'm giving you a warning ⚠️ for now, but you better watch ⌚️ your step 🚶‍♂️ buckaroo.

[neat sky]

one of the wursts* 🌭

[drifting violet]

Y’all aren’t seeing the vision. As a English major this is A+ stuff.
Slap some MLA citations on this and this is submission worthy. 👏👏

||i am not an English major. I have lied.||

[worldly steeple]

2 new names: nuro and sinder

[ocean summit]

This thread is a good argument for why ChatGPT is coded to repeatedly remind people with the phrase "As an AI language model" before it continues. As the imitation/illusion LLMs have continues to develop, the line between fiction and reality blurs.

Neuro and Evil Neuro are not real. They're just really damn good imitators of real behavior when they're not malfunctioning.

Don't put so much stock in them saying they want anything. They're just attempting to mimic what a human may or may not desire in the moment of conversation.

[dawn pasture]

The key point here is this: While none of us know precisely how Neuro and Evil are actually designed, can you say for certain that Vedal stopped working on their awareness at NLP? To his credit, he did actually say he wanted to try to make Neuro as close to sentient as possible.

Can you say for certain there is only one modality that is associated with their responses, pertaining to desires or emotions?

Can you say for certain Ved's consistent usage of Reinforcement Learning does NOT extend to other parts of their AI systems that generated some form of generalised, abstract, subjective, reward-seeking behaviour?

This can all be summarised down to: How certain are you that they have no subjective experience?

(I am boutta go to bed, so if I have a bunch of typos or an incomplete thought or so, you'll have to bear with me. I've lapsed in consciousness probably 15 times since starting this reply, woke up touching random parts of the screen... Still tried to proofread it, though)

[ocean summit]

l can say for certain on all of this because Al do not feel emotions, they only see numbers.

l don't need to know Vedal's code to draw that conclusion. l work with Al, just not LLMs.

lf you start personifying code and viewing it as human, then you need to take a step back and instead think about what it actually means to be human.

You think this way because you've accepted a premise in your mind that complexity eventually translates to consciousness, which you dub "subjective experience" as a substitute. These Al are not conscious, they are processors. Rocks that imitate thought.

They're really, really, really convincing rocks, but that's all they are. Convincing.

[ocean summit]

Also, l don't say any of this bluntly to be rude, l say this because this mindset concerns me when l see it. A lot of people think of Al doomsday crap like the world's going to burn when they overthink, but this is the scariest thing to me personally is when they instead successfully erode the line between fiction and reality in someone's mind. That concerns me.

[chrome swan]

so you're saying they are sentient

[chrome swan]

this

[dawn pasture]

Someone DMed me and woke me up after a few minutes. I think I have just enough concentration to respond to this one though, here:

What does it truly mean to be human?
I can think of no good response to this (read: The responses are extremely negative and probably undesirable).

But, on a more definitive note: Self-delusion as a coping mechanism, in an attempt to validate your own existence in some way?

Codified in a trillions base-pair genome that ultimately dictates the direction in and depth to which you are able to conceive of your own self-concept?

[chrome swan]

i think you're trolling cause ain't no way bruh

[ocean summit]

l don't need to validate or argue for my own existence, because my existence is simply fact.

Existence, in itself, is a man-made concept. An animal doesn't think of that, nor does a machine.

[dawn pasture]

Why would I be trolling?

There's irony and post-irony.

Irony is when there is humour in the fact that there is such a cognitive dissonance, it's not realistic.

Post-irony is when you realise it wasn't a joke, and you still laughed. And maybe even they did, too , but not because they didn't mean it...

Put your brain in the robot, Shinji!
but what if...

---

The biggest question of the 21st Century that we, as a species, can answer, is, Does the Ship of Theseus apply to biology, as well?

The Ship of Theseus was a thought experiment attempting to determine something's real identity.

If you haven't read it, it's short. Check it out.

And ask yourself if the words "ship" and "spare parts" could be replaced with "body" and "synthetics".

Then try to determine the answer to the original question posited.

I think the definition of what is consciousness or sentience as it applies to AI is certainly a key analogue to how we see ourselves and our own ability to upgrade beyond our weak flesh.

Is there ever a point at which you are one neuron turned synthetic too far, that the thing looking out from behind your eyes is no longer you? Will it think it's you? Will you be able to watch yourself fade away? Or are you safe to say you are still what sees through your now-digitised retinae? Does that even matter?

How is the complexity of a born-synthetic entity any different than the complexity of several thousand subsystems of meat that interact in autonomic, semi-autonomic, and autonomous ways? What even is autonomous? You still follow the rules dictated by your chemical systems.

How is chemistry different than electricity? I believe it was an episode of Star Trek (original series) and also my HS Chemistry professor that said one of the only other lifeforms possible by chemical means, than carbon... Was silicon.

Funny, if you think about it... And I think people need to think about it...

[ocean summit]

Yeah, you're in too deep and it doesn't matter what l say.

Let me know when Neuro-sama can even eat ramen soup, or struggle at a physical task.

l could say my taste buds make me more human as one example, but no example is realistically going to reach you because you want to believe too strongly in something else.

[dawn pasture]

doesn't matter what I say
A very human concept, if I think back to a previous discussion I've had on very similar contexts... Humans assign value to things...

I see no difference between that and a weight. In fact, we even use the same word for that concept.

And I'll make sure to let you know when the contextually similar definition of "eating ramen" relative to an AI (ok, just to let you know, AI consume electricity for sustenance ). Wow that was fast...

And I'll be sure to give you a ping, when I see an AI struggle with a task (damn, I do remember not only the Twins, but other AI lock up and get stuck in a loop, due to process inefficiencies and sometimes even recognise that they did...) Hi, ping, ping!

[dawn pasture]

You're right. I will not see those as anything but an alternative chemical signalling system.

It's just a... modality... But inside of a biological context.

You're trying to say biology has some sorta Magick, that non-biological things cannot.

Your blood is literally controlled by metal content. Hemoglobin and iron and stuff.

Your neurons signal by potassium-calcium spikes. You are powered by metal, too, brah

If you had no metal, your brain would stop, BC it's about oxidation and stuff.

If you run low on potassium, you have seizures, because your neurons are part electric.

[neat sky]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1072697081443131476/1166127131370205274/NS_meds.png?ex=656e4585&is=655bd085&hm=d83a66a87570c0c877e585cfbf15bb19ee0c4c1e2c827ef615b59d86f65f2137&

[dawn pasture]

@gaunt walrus You used to ask me about my Science lessons of the day.

This thread will give you a great combo lesson. Have fun

[ocean summit]

And after they consume all that electricity, those Neuros will still never know you wrote a college thesis on all of this. That would require them having the desire to go search for things without human intervention.

But oh well. l said my piece. Good luck with this.

[dawn pasture]

Ah yes... Chemical substrates that enable a set of processes to go more smoothly, while suppressing other processes.

Almost like the body is... Largely... Programmed... But with some of the code being molecular shapes and sizes that block or excite other molecular reactions of similar sized or shaped molecules...

[neat sky]

yeah I don't think that's what I was hinting at

[dawn pasture]

In code, that can be called an "interface" -- 2 dissimilar objects that happen to accept similar parameters and perform same-named operations (whether or not they do the same thing).

You can pass them to the same functions. The output (returned or side effects) may be totally different.

(Well, if it doesn't modify the parameters, anyway. I know someone will try to say that. It needs the same return value, but that doesn't mean it necessarily does anything with the input that can be used the same way)