TTS suggestion

[cold delta]

Some people like TTS, some people don't. Some people want Neuro to repeat their questions, and some people want to hear TTS, as if they're really speaking to Neuro.

Here is the suggestion (arbitrary values):

• 10k points to ask a question without TTS
• 20k points to ask a question with TTS
• 300 bits to ask a question without TTS (Neuro repeats it, if she chooses to)
• 500 bits (or more) to ask a question with TTS

The point is to have TTS behind the higher price. And remove "ding ding" sound, maybe.

[wary linden]

hmm. Maybe add 30k points for with TTS too. So people without much money or who don't want to spend money can use it to(?)

[hazy wedge]

30k is too much for tts cuz 10k later can you get 10 mins with Neuro toggle

20k would be more reasonable

[candid hedge]

also make 50k points to ask question with tts

[wary linden]

You think so. I never use the Neuro toggles
I would rather wait till I have 30k points to have it read out loud

[sick shore]

lets haggle 27k

[wary linden]

i prob. wouldn't use the 15k one

[tame nymph]

I still don't think it should be on during gaming streams, since it divides the attention of the stream between Neuro, the Game, Chat and TTS, that's too much imo

[hazy wedge]

27 is a weird number so let’s go down to 25

[cold delta]

10k w/o TTS, 20k with TTS?

[hazy wedge]

Some people like the toggle, also 30k takes like 20 streams to get if you stay the whole stream

[wary linden]

Honestly I like TTS. I want it to stay.
But you could make it more expensive, because the queue was so long on the bartender stream

[hazy wedge]

With customizable voices so it doesn’t get old?

[cold delta]

idk about that one

[hazy wedge]

I want a Vedal voice

[wary linden]

turn it into a Forsen stream

HAHAHAH

[cold delta]

You will make him say it back, so it won't happen

[sick shore]

make a 1k$ dono and vedal would read your message personally with his own voice

[hazy wedge]

Maybe themed streams we can get a themed voice??

[hazy wedge]

NOOOO YOU FOUND ME OUT

[hazy wedge]

Forsen themed stream

Tbh 15k for tts and 10 k no tts seems better

300 bits for no tts and 500 with tts

[harsh garnet]

The pricings suggested are too arbitrary imo.
Personally, I find TTS too disruptive to justify anything below doubling of the price.

One thing of note I'd like to bring up as well is that channel points and bits are not equal and people will run out of channel points faster than bits so the bits price should be increased more rather than less.
That is, you can p2w bits so they should be nerfed harder

[cold delta]

Yes, they are pretty much arbitrary. The point is to have TTS behind the higher price.

[fallen cypress]

TTS makes sense to have so you know what Neuro is responding to instead of having to guess. If Neuro can repeat the question or at least make some hints towards it then TTS would not be needed. Aside from that, 300 is an annoying price for bits. 500 would be fine to also match twitch available packages.

[rustic matrix]

Vedal had concerns about neuro repeating questions because of what happened last week, so the tts is helpful in that regard, I just think it needs to be more subtle/less invasive

[harsh garnet]

Neuro repeated the questions/made hints last stream, I don't see a problem tbh

[verbal star]

In other words 1000 Mins for question without TTS
2000 Mins for Question WITH tts
$3 without tts
and 5 bucks WITH tts.
AND then Kai thinks 3000 mins for tts
AND tHEN Vivy thinks 5000 mins for tts

Lets put this into perspective

[cold delta]

mins?

[verbal star]

CJMAXIK your idea would either cost the viewer a median $4 USD or 31 hours and 15 mins and 4 seconds of point accumalation

[cold delta]

Ah

[worn oxide]

I like the idea, i think it could be made more expensive though

[cold delta]

Our prices are very generous rn compared to other streamers.

[verbal star]

Kai your idea would cost an excess of NINETY THREE HOURS of point accumulation

[cold delta]

Nine hours spread through 6K people is not that bad either, especially when she still reads chat from time to time.

If you want more, Tier 3

[worn oxide]

15k points = around 45 hours of watching without any predictions

so after 3 weeks, assuming all 5000 viewers are there for all 15 streams during the 3 weeks, there will be 5000 tts messages ready without even taking into account bits

[verbal star]

and VIVY your idea would be around 153 HOURS of points

gg

[worn oxide]

remove tts for channel points and make it only bits

[harsh garnet]

that's a very generous calculation tbh

[rustic matrix]

It doesn’t happen often, but the concern is still there it’s like a safety precaution

[harsh garnet]

You know what would be an easy way to more than double the speed at which highlighted messages can be processed?
Removing TTS so that Neuro responds instantly

[fallen cypress]

Or a text bubble that shows the message she responds to without the tts. No privacy for the wicked

[ivory pasture]

Just curate all references to Neuro juice out of the TTS queue and it's instantly half an hour shorter

[hollow gazelle]

What's important is that TTS gives context to her answer, so I think the best solution is to display the question in a bubble on screen as she's answering it. No TTS removes the context which makes for great clips, and clips are good for getting new viewers. And they are fun for the community as well.

[harsh garnet]

The issue of context is overblown.
The people who are confused will be confused even knowing the context.
If the clip requires giving the chat message a voice for the clip to be good then it's relatively easy to do in editing

[cold delta]

Edit twitch VOD then, would you?

[harsh garnet]

It's not the twitch vod that's good for bringing new viewers, is it

[fallen cypress]

It isn't overblown though? Unless you're a fan of half a conversation

[craggy arch]

You have unlocked new role

[cold delta]

This doesn't make much sense, the question is about having TTS on stream.

[harsh garnet]

half a conversation is happening even with TTS
I am hesitant to even call that a conversation

[harsh garnet]

Yeah, and good clips as an arguments for having it on stream does not work

[cold delta]

I mean, if you were to edit the clip, you would have to search for the context in chat yourself, not the most convenient thing to do

[harsh garnet]

Come on, be realistic, it's less than 2 minutes of effort.
2 minute convenience for a case that isn't yet proven to exist is hardly a reason to justify this

[cold delta]

The people who are confused will be confused even knowing the context.
This also does not make any sense. Give people context - they won't be confused.

[harsh garnet]

The amount of information context provides is overblown.
Most of the time the context is that there is no context. It's not a dialogue in a novel that you're missing out on and getting only one of the parties voiced.
The rest of the time the things Neuro repeats are more than enough

[ivory pasture]

In a scenario where the context is "TTS prompt and response", cutting away the prompt, hiding it behind an obstacle that requires unnecessary effort EDIT: -from the viewer-, entirely breaks the context.

In the context of an interactive entertainment feature, having the viewers left unnecessarily guessing EDIT: -for the prompt- creates a needlessly uncomfortable experience, and at that point you might as well remove the whole feature.

[harsh garnet]

What kind of scenario would that be? And what kind of unnecessary effort do you say it requires to hide?
What are the viewers even guessing?
I don't see why purely functionally speaking removing the feature would somehow be a step too far, the TTS messages have not proven themselves to be significantly better than the general mass of chatters

[tame nymph]

The choice isn't only between TTS and no context, there's less intrusive methods of providing context than TTS

[hollow gazelle]

@harsh garnet Without context you get things like "It sure is", "Sure, but so are you, moron!", "If you do it first". Even when she repeats questions, context is lost or even changed slightly. I have been in the streams since January, so I know how it was, and I prefer TTS because of the context it provides. But if a speech-bubble could fulfill that function, I'm happy.

[harsh garnet]

So how many of these there were on the latest stream? I don't even know where you get that second one from, I can't recall Neuro saying anything even remotely similar.
What more context to a question do you want than the question itself? What more context is there to even give?

[hollow gazelle]

The question/comment itself should be made evident, there's plenty of examples of her not repeating it. Now why argue against this? I want it evident, not necessarily TTS.

[harsh garnet]

Not having it directly displayed doesn't necessarily make it unapparent.
I am arguing that the context is evident without any indicators, be it TTS or text on screen. That as it right now is already pretty much as evident as it gets, the difference these systems provide is miniscule

[fallen cypress]

Examples were given where it isn't clear to what the response is. In some cases it was clear, other cases it wasn't. So definitely room for improvement there for when not doing TTS. To give another example. bit message into . Good luck finding out who it was with a queue.

[harsh garnet]

Examples where given... where exactly were they given?
If a message turns out to be filtered, firstly, that means the filter that is responsible for making sure the message isn't picked up at all isn't working, and secondly, that it is not supposed to be seen, that's the whole point

[rustic matrix]

it’s a work in progress and not everything is perfect but I believe it will get better overtime

[fallen cypress]

The response is filtered, not the message.

[hollow gazelle]

@harsh garnet I'm trying to find examples, but last chill stream was like 80% responding to chat emotes... content.

Like https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1940931563?t=2h34m00s

[harsh garnet]

I mean, that's still not a reason to find out the original message. Isn't finding out what makes Neuro say something that gets filtered bad?

[rustic matrix]

I think he meant for vedal to find out

[hollow gazelle]

@harsh garnet Sounds like you've not asked many questions or listened to her streams with any collab partners at this point. She filters herself for the most mundane questions.

[harsh garnet]

You mean the green crayons? Is this really the fun defining moment the stream needs? It was necessary for enjoyment to know that the crayons were in a context of being eaten?

[harsh garnet]

Vedal already has the control panel though

[fallen cypress]

Naw, I meant for the donator 🙂 Livestream chat is interesting when there is a massive queue for the tts.

[harsh garnet]

https://tenor.com/view/troll-gif-26178840

You did not just say that unironically

[hollow gazelle]

@harsh garnet I mean that she only responds to emotes in chat.

And I mean what gets filtered in general.

[fallen cypress]

I'm not baiting anything here? Is it so weird that people that donate bits for the tts get to know that their message went through regardless of the response?

[harsh garnet]

I still don't see how knowing what triggered Neuro to be filtered is context that isn't at best unnecessary and at worst malicious, regardless of what is Neuro responding to.

Do people think that Vedal shuts down bits messages silently if they don't hear TTS read their message? I am not sure what you are implying here

[hollow gazelle]

@harsh garnet That's up to the filter and Vedal's quick reflexes to decide. And I don't see where anything like that was implied, but Vedal made the filter, so in the end, filtering is filtering. But if it passes the chat message filter, then it should be displayed, even if Neuro filters her response.

I mean even the names Neuro responds to when thanking subs should probably be filtered at times. ^^

[rustic matrix]

Up to vedal and how cautious he wants to be about this

[harsh garnet]

Why should be displayed? You are just asserting that

[hollow gazelle]

@harsh garnet Well, in the case that's picked as a solution in replacement or partial replacement for TTS. If it's not filtered, then it should be displayed.

[harsh garnet]

I am so confused, you aren't answering the question

[rustic matrix]

Personally I think having visual or auditory display of the message is something to look into, however I think the filtered messages shouldn’t be displaying false positive or not or it can be left up to vedal

[hollow gazelle]

Yep, yep, that's what I'm saying 🙂

[harsh garnet]

Wuh? That is not at all what the text that you write is saying

[fallen cypress]

Yeah, visual display of it would be great. Price increase to 500 bits would also make sense with Twitch's pricing for the bits to then reduce the amount of messages.

[hollow gazelle]

@harsh garnet Then maybe you are misinterpreting what I'm saying. It's quite simple: I said I wanted context for what Neuro responds to, so I want a speech bubble or TTS for that purpose. And if the message is not filtered, it should be displayed. Then Neuro may filter her response to it.

Displayed or spoken *

[tardy panther]

i just think tts should be pay to win only tbh but I also think we should give it even a stream with the raised pricing before making more changes

[harsh garnet]

That's not what maplesyrup is saying though. What maplesyrup is saying is almost the opposite of you're saying that you're saying

Well, I am stretching the definition of almost there.
But I am getting donowalled or gaslit, the question remains unanswered

[hollow gazelle]

@harsh garnet I have answered it, you just don't accept my answer for some reason. Imagine collab partners having their perfectly normal responses filtered because Neuro thought of a filthy response to it.

Or not filthy, but just a false positive.

[rustic matrix]

I feel like that kind of isolates the audience tho, maybe make the point redeems more expensive too? Like 20-25k?

[tardy panther]

my honest take is people will get over it and having to pay for tts is common

[harsh garnet]

Your response to the question "Why should the message be displayed?" is "It just should". Who would accept that?
There is a difference between being filtered and nor being read out/displayed. And even if there wasn't the collab partners have the privilege to do things random chatters can't, that was always the case

[rustic matrix]

[hollow gazelle]

@harsh garnet If, I say IF, messages from chat are read or displayed in some way, then if Neuro-sama filters herself, it should be displayed. I mean she might as well not say anything if she just says "Filtered". Why not display a message that was not filtered. But yes there's the alternative of her not responding at all if she's filtered.

Like it could be a message as innocuous as "What are you cooking Neuro?", and her saying "Filtered" is pretty funny. Instead of her just saying "Filtered" randomly.

[harsh garnet]

You still can't answer the question "Why?".
She might as well not say anything indeed. I have ideas as to why have Neuro say "filtered", but I am not Vedal, and it is not the topic.
I don't find the example you give funny whatsoever. One time, I can see it being kind of amusing, but multiple times, it's just a boring waste of time/screen space for nothing

[tardy panther]

it's literally how TTS works now a question gets read and then neuro says filtered

[harsh garnet]

Yeah? I don't find it funny at all

[tardy panther]

ok?

[harsh garnet]

So? what's your point

[hollow gazelle]

Yes, that's also an argument: it's how it works now. The only thing that's problematic with TTS there's too much of it at the moment.

[harsh garnet]

||I'd stretch that "argument" in very grotesque ways if I could.||
It just seems like you don't like things changing and developed a nocebo you can't factually justify.
"Personally, I don't see the problem, therefore there is no problem" is as disingenuous to say as "I have a sandwich, therefore no one in the world is starving"

[hollow gazelle]

@harsh garnet Yes, you are disingenuously stretching it. But what's the counter argument? I've not heard any yet.

[harsh garnet]

I can stretch it even worse in your DMs if you want to.
The counter argument as to why it shouldn't be shown? Isn't the reason this discussion thread exists a counter-argument? And how I said it's disruptive and unnecessary

[hollow gazelle]

@harsh garnet "This thread exists", there's plenty of threads here. I agree with OP that something should be done, so do you, but you are rather extremist in your position of wanting to turn it off. What about Neuro responding to emotes? That adds a lot less, takes up way more time, than displaying/TTS'ing a message Neuro responds to with "Filtered"

[harsh garnet]

I mean not the fact that it exists, but the factors that lead to its existence.
It's not on topic, but I think Neuro responding to at least most emotes should be turned off as well. Vedal said things about filtering out the emote-only messages so this position is not unfounded

[tardy panther]

i deleted a message saying you seem over worked up and just left the thread instead 👍

that'll be the last reply since i got pinged

[rustic matrix]

I think tts is good for chill and theme streams, anything else I’m fine with it off I feel like tts is apart of the content when I watch recaps or clips

Maybe he should turn tts off for some streams and leave them on for others?

[verbal star]

Maybe extra TTS voices for extra price https://tts.monster

[crimson hemlock]

I too think that's the best solution

[harsh garnet]

But it's exactly the worst on chill and themed streams, that's like barely a change.
Choosing streams when it's turned on or off probably runs into the same problem as making dedicated segemtns to it

[rustic matrix]

As long as it doesn’t feel like she’s only thanking subs or reading emotes the entire stream I’m fine with it, feels like people just want neuro to go back to how she used to be but I don’t think that’s possible atp, would’ve worked with the smaller audience, doesn’t really work with a larger one. Who knows though maybe vedal has a solution

[robust slate]

anything that keeps other people from accumulating too many points is fine by me (vip )

[dry valve]

"TTS responses are all one liners with no integration with the rest of the converssation."
"TTS will derail a good tangent or rant, which is occasionally frustrating"
"TTS takes away uninterrupted airtime from Neuro"

Those were my original issues with it. I don't know if anything's changed since then.

[rustic matrix]

People were also talking about disliking the voice, the loud notification, and taking up too much time like you said, although I think he could just make the stream a bit longer to remedy that last part, still don’t like the lack of context without tts and neuro just said the one liners before tts was a thing, something vedal said he doesn’t want neuro doing anymore

[rustic matrix]

I still think tts is the best way of communicating with neuro everything feels out of place now, she’s just gonna thank subs cuz it gets more attention the reading emote problem still hasn’t been solved and she barely rants anyway

[harsh garnet]

Solving emote issue is incredibly easy, literally just a filter.
Just because the way thanking subs is bad, doesn't mean TTS must be worse so that it doesn't get interrupted. What it means is that it should be better.
Solve thanking subs if that's what stopping you from accepting lack of TTS, it's not a be-all and end-all issue

[rustic matrix]

I guess but this is more of a decision for vedal so I’ll stop talking about this now

[harsh garnet]

I think it's good to rationalize the decisions properly even if you aren't the final decision maker

[icy hemlock]

I wrote this in #livestream-chat during the first TTS-off chill stream in a long time, a lot of people agreed with it, so I might as well post it here as well:

TTS is one of the reasons chat spam is so bad as well, many of the chatters who would have interacted with the streamer by talking with Neuro and asking questions are blocked out by the constant stream of TTS donos and very rarely does Neuro read a random message from chat. Not leaving the viewers many ways to interact with the stream

[dry valve]

Before TTS Neuro often read questions out loud that she was going to answer.
It felt a lot more natural and she was actually able to tangent off her own responses unlike TTS answers which were guaranteed one-liners before a topic switch.
If he got Neuro to say out every question she wanted to answer in place of TTS it'd be an improvement in every single way.

[rustic matrix]

I agree but vedal says he doesn’t really plan on doing that anymore

Here’s what I’m talking about, #neurotic-neurons message

[harsh garnet]

Hmm, but wouldn't the filter catch it? I guess it wouldn't since chat filter didn't catch it, but at the same time it should since the response was filtered.
I am still interested as to why the English only automod didn't catch it

[tame nymph]

Wouldn't Neuro act as a second filter in that case? Since it would have to go through the chat filter first and then it would have to go through Neuro's filter for her to say it. If he's talking about the incident where TTS said the H-word I think it would have just come out as "filtered" on Neuro's side. But he knows his filters best I suppose

[icy hemlock]

The filter didn't catch the one chatter that redeemed a message about holocure during a recent osu stream, if Evil Neuro read that measage out instead of TTS we'd have bigger things to worry about right now

I still think displaying the message in a speech bubble, with name attached, is the best solution

[tame nymph]

Again, I don't think Neuro would have actually said the word

[icy hemlock]

Take the anonymity out of it and that would also help resolve the issue of weird chatters

[icy hemlock]

Ah yeah we started typing about the same thing at the same time, I see what you mean now

[tame nymph]

If anything that incident makes it look like having things go through Neuro seems more secure

[icy hemlock]

I can agree with that

What concerns me is, what if Neuro reads something realy bad, that isn't on the filter

and having Neuro read the redeem again might lead to a whole wave of chatters trying to make Neuro say sus/tos stuff

[rustic matrix]

I think it was supposed but something slipping through is probably always gonna be non-zero

[harsh garnet]

Let's be realistic, the chances of a malicious message not only coming through but also being repeated verbatim by Neuro are insignificantly small. It is as Hjalnir says, even in the worst case scenario where every moderation layer was bypassed somehow one can probably count on the LLM to not use the version of the word that managed to fool the moderation and instead use plain English that will surely get filtered automatically.
It is hardly an argument in favour of TTS, one can even say the TTS is giving the malicious actors a platform even if they are banned immediately after

[errant raptor]

I think a simple cooldown time on the TTS might be able to aliviate most of the issues, no?

[harsh garnet]

Bits TTS can't be put on cooldown

[errant raptor]

But streamers can disable them manually. So preset times for bits TTS and normal cooldowns for the points ones might be enough

[harsh garnet]

What do you mean by preset times? The problem is people won't know when the bits they spend will or not go through because nothing is physically stopping them from spending money.
If you mean to just scam people by making them think they will get their message read but they won't, that's very based

[rustic matrix]

Again, I think this is beyond me cuz I don’t actually know how the stuff works, if vedal sees it as an issue than that’s another story

[harsh garnet]

Well, I too, only have a high level understanding of how it usually works.
Vedal sees that as an issue but I don't, I wish someone would enlighten me with the inner workings but alas

[errant raptor]

Make an announcement and have it on screen when bits will be taken into account. So that within the stream people can see/know when they will work

[harsh garnet]

That's like effort and stuff (effort from both Vedal's side to implement this and from chatters side too, to actually pay attention to announcements, you have to take that into account), for what's ultimately just a half-measure.
It was already discussed even before this thread was created, and (someone correct me if I am misremembering who said what) Vedal said there are issues with picking dedicated segments for TTS

[rustic matrix]

I think the straight forward solution of rising tts price works best then, will it actually work? We’ll have to see once vedal implements it, it will probably discourage people cuz of the higher price and therefore use it less often

[cold delta]

TTS is 500 bits for Evil osu! stream

[blissful cradle]

I don't think it's working rn, but do the TTS with points works ?
Or it's just highlighted messages (if it's the case it's good)

[fallen cypress]

TTS for highlight like that last one.

[blissful cradle]

[harsh garnet]

From the small sample size as it is, it can be seen, raising the price to 500 barely changed anything.
And the ratio of bits vs channel points still is heavily weighted towards bits

[blissful cradle]

That's even worse TTS still works with channel points, if we count all the viewers that are in the stream atleast 100 have enough to use the TTS with channel points (even more if they are subs, they can farm points very easily).

[harsh garnet]

I really don't think channel points accumulation is really the issue here

[fallen cypress]

20k now for highlight too.

[icy hemlock]

as I expected raising the price of TTS barely changed anything, oilers gonna oil

one of my main gripes with TTS is how it presents a "barrier to entry" to interacting with Neuro-sama, if it seems like the only way to do so is by spending bits or waiting long enough for a points redeem most chatters aren't gonna bother trying and just spam emotes or something. Removing TTS would level the playing field and viewers would be more inclined to talk to Neuro directly, the first chill stream without TTS recently, less chatters donated and many more asked her questions without redeeming anything

[blissful cradle]

I'm waiting to see how it will go during a chatting stream since today's stream is a "gaming" stream with interruptions of Evil playing OSU, but from what I see it's not going really well.

[icy hemlock]

Even displaying the responding message on screen would work with non-redeem messages

[blissful cradle]

less chatters donated
not good

[dry valve]

If the amount of TTS didn't decrease this stream, that's a win for Tutel's funding jar. ||Now increase the price to 1000 bits||