Ok, but seriously, message highlight is too expensive

[hexed mauve]

20,000 channel points? Heres what that would take to get:
~ 167 hours of watching (20k points with 10/5min) which (assuming 3.5 hour streams) would take ~48 streams - thats about 3 months.
~ 62.5 hours of active chatting (80pts/15min) - about 18 streams - about a month (assuming you don't miss any chats)
taking into account bonuses, missing no streams, and taking part in every raid, constantly chatting:
300+350+400+(450*11)+(250*11)+(11*(3.5 hours/5 minutes)*11)+(11*(3.5 hours/15 minutes)*50) - 11 streams, about 2-3 weeks.
Now, if you are a tier 3 sub: 2 weeks:
300+350+400+(450*9)+(250*9)+(9*(3.5 hours/5 minutes)*9*2)+(9*(3.5 hours/15 minutes)*50)
for one highlighted message
Seriously, I know that you think there is too many already, but as someone with no way to know for sure, I suspect most of them are cheers and not points redeems. Plus, you can't refund filtered ones, so...

Please actually consider making them less expensive

[tight sky]

Well the entire stream cant just be TTS, she can also read chat and just make up stories and rants

[wise badger]

you gotta make sure the TTS doesnt go into the event horizon where the queue just keeps getting longer

📊 🔨 the tts economy

[hexed mauve]

What I mean is that.. lets assume your job was to send tts messages. In order for it to be worth using channel points instead of bits, (assuming current pricing of 500 bits for $7 since 300 is the minimum for tts - so 1.4¢ per bit) you would have to be paid (with a tier 3 sub) less than 14 cents PER HOUR (best case) - and for just watching, 2.5 cents per hour.

of course, this is just a way to put it in perspective, but if you value your time, you should basically give up on channel points.

[kind leaf]

this stream is a prime example of why it shouldnt be cheaper

giga spam

[wise badger]

fortunately your job is not to send TTS messages

[kind leaf]

might be coincidence but i feel like it cuts off any continuity to any and all stories/topics shes talking about

especially when theres b2b tts

[hexed mauve]

which is why i said

of course, this is just a way to put it in perspective

But if you really want to make TTS less frequent, make the bits more expensive instead

[kind leaf]

might do a funny one day

thats a whole another thing entirely, im no expert but im pretty sure people would rather use the free option than pay a cent

[hexed mauve]

lets try to pay attention to how many of them have bits pop up on screen compared to not

[kind leaf]

idk how to put it but i dont think people should be entiteled to any kind of frequent tts prompts

if u have channel points cool, spend em on things -> tts is one of them

[hexed mauve]

frequent, as in once every 3 months if you want to do it for free?

[wise badger]

one interesting thing is neuro pretty much directly responds to TTS so the TTS tries to be super conversational

self perpetuating

[hexed mauve]

true

[wise badger]

on some other streamers the TTS is not as much in the forefront

[kind leaf]

i guess i mean it shouldnt be an entitlement

[wise badger]

watch TTS become sub-only

might be interesting as a test

[hexed mauve]

ok, lets do the math there.
Assuming that 10,000 viewers always watched every stream, and had no issues with twitch. Lets say that 80% want to send a message. She would answer one TTS every 4.5 minutes. Doesn't sound very constant to me.

Now if all 374328 followers constantly watched every stream and actively chatted, that woud be a problem

[wise badger]

hmm

this is like trying to balance F2P in a game except it's harder because every F2P user affects the actual stream

[hexed mauve]

thats what stuff like DiffEq is for

@wise badger btw same major, i have a friend who went to purdue for grad school

[wise badger]

[static isle]

honestly TTS for chat points feels redundant to me no matter the price, probably not a popular opinion but if it was up to me i would turn it off completely a leave it just for bits.

[wise badger]

how about just make highlight my message just highlight my message and not TTS, but somehow give a larger weight to the message

so it's not guaranteed that neuro will care but still more noticable

[wise river]

Its expensive but Neuro gets spammed a lot of tts already, so we're at a point where the tts is expensive but also gets overused, probably increase bits tts and decrease the channel point tts?

[wintry warren]

Since vedal doesn't have to pay anyone to generate TTS messages for him, here's a calculation that is more relevant:

It costs actual money in compute power for neuro to respond to a TTS message (and for vedal to develop neuro). Current price is set at 300 bits, of which twitch pays out 1 cent per bit resulting in $3 worth of revenue for the channel.

If you're not subscribed the only income the channel is getting from you is ads. Revenue from ads isn't very transparent, but a rough number often quoted seems to be $3.50 per 1000 impressions. This means you would need to watch about 858 ads for the channel to get the same amount of revenue as 300 bits. With the current frequency of ads even over 48 streams you won't have seen anywhere near that number of ads. 20k channel points per TTS message is being extremely generous if you're not subbed, especially since you're able to earn it over just 11 to 18 streams.

The picture does change a bit if you're subbed, a T1 sub gives the channel about $2.50 of revenue per month if you're in the US region (it can be higher or way lower in other regions). But again in this case 1 free message every 2-3 weeks is still not bringing in the same revenue as bits.

If you have a tier 3 sub, the channel is receiving $12.50 of revenue, if you assume that revenue would entitle you to TTS messages, then it should give you about 3 TTS messages per month. As you mentioned it does give you increased channel points and it's possible to get a free TTS messages every 2 weeks. This is a worse deal than spending bits, but the point of subbing is to support the channel anything you get in return is a perk.

The 20K channel points is fine and in most cases it's actually a generous offer when compared to spending bits.

[hexed mauve]

Personally, I dont find this convincing, and would legitimately rather have message highlights not even do tts than have it be as expensive as it is

[wintry warren]

That would certainly be disappointing for people who can't spend money on twitch. At least the current system gives them the ability to send a TTS message to neuro after watching long enough.

But it seems like you're making the argument that the revenue should be coming from donations and TTS messages should be equally available to all viewers?

[hexed mauve]

sorry, no, i said that out of how much i would rather have anything but the current system

[wise badger]

i would argue to make it cheaper and more gamba

[hexed mauve]

but think about this for a moment

[wise badger]

that way the chances can be easier to balance out automatically

[wintry warren]

Personally I appreciate it not being gamba, because making it probability-based just hides the true cost. For example if you make the price 500 points and you simply make the probability 1 out of 40 that neuro responds then the true price is still 20K, it's just hidden from you.

Neuro does have a tendency to donowall anyway, so it's kinda gamba already, but that affects bits as well and is a larger issue

[wise badger]

i think it'd be worth a try at least

[hexed mauve]

if someone can't afford bits, they can't afford subs either. That means that they would need a minimum of 20000/(80/(15min)) = 62.5 hours.

Here are some twitch statistics from the end of the suspension to now, for perspective.

[wise badger]

it should change up the dynamics of chat a lot

[hexed mauve]

if you watched every stream, and were able to interact with chat on each one, you would be able to afford less than 8 highlighted messages

here is a distribution of stream lengths

[wise badger]

hiding the true cost would probably make people less cognizant and also less madge lol

gacha psychology

roll for

[hexed mauve]

i thought meant gamba as in, well gambelling channel points on predictions

[wintry warren]

I think a stronger argument is that it gives people a chance to get the reward earlier. It would still statistically level out to 20K points, but you have a chance of not having to wait until you've saved up the 20K.

[hot bloom]

@wintry warren has leveled up! (3 ➜ 4)

[wise badger]

also gacha psychology lmao

[hexed mauve]

plus this is normally how highlighted messages work anyway, streamers are allowed to ignore.

[wintry warren]

GreenCap suggested earlier in the discussion to make it so neuro has a chance to respond, rather than a guaranteed queue

[wise badger]

if the gamba bugs out noone will know

[hexed mauve]

Also, we need to have a way to have TTS messages that would be filtered can't be send (or just have a way to know it would be filtered) - imagine spending money, getting past the donowall/gacha chances, just for her to filter it (YOUR MESSAGE, not her response) because of who knows why

[static isle]

that would cause people to sneak in sus stuff tru the filter

[wintry warren]

Could be simply be done through automatic refunds

[wise badger]

yeah i dont think there's a good way to do this, especially w/ bits

i dont think there's a way for a streamer to refund bits?

[hexed mauve]

apparently they cant refund highlighted messages

[wise badger]

regardless people skip TTS all the time

i dont think it's an issue

[wintry warren]

Yeah ultimately Neuro is supposed to be a streamer, not ChatGPT

Streamers donowall all the time

Not a positive, but also not a huge problem

[hexed mauve]

donowalling isn't a problem - but the automated system stealing my bits/channel points is different

what it was like "if if the QUESTION was filtered, then it shouldn't have been allowed to be sent in twitch chat"

[wintry warren]

If Bits are purchased and Cheered, this action cannot be reversed / refunded except for technical issues, suspected fraudulent activity with a particular purchase, or where otherwise mandated by law.

Yeah they can't be refunded

And there's no way to prevent you from sending bits, vedal can't check your message beforehand

[hexed mauve]

wait, so if you cheer on a message that would say 'message not sent due to conflicts with channel moderation' it would still take your bits?

[wise badger]

i think you can refund channel points, but if vedal decides to turn it into a gamba system it wouldn't matter anyway

[hexed mauve]

mods cant, i think that you can't refund, but the streamer themselves can "gift" a viewer any ammount of channel points

[wintry warren]

Well then you'd have the problem that @static isle mentioned, where it would basically be free to test your message against the filter. Meaning people would be able to easily figure out how to bypass it.

Also channel moderation settings are probably way more limited than the filter system vedal uses right now

[hexed mauve]

no i mean, normally you cant say particular words in chat. I'm asking if you cheer, will it still not allow your message to be sent (which sends it, but then gives the client an error instead of preventing the send) would it take your bits but not the message

[hexed mauve]

right which is the problem

[wise badger]

the thing is im pretty sure vedal also runs sentiment analysis and stuff

[static isle]

actually something like that happened couple streams ago... some peeps tryed to sneak in tts in polish, it could not be send but managed to do it after some tweaking... then it got filtered

[hexed mauve]

I'm kinda mad bc i spend 20k points to say "someone tell neuro there is a problem with vedal's N.I." - I was thinking N.I. - natural intelligence, the opposite of A.I., but the filter jumped to the conclusion it meant the start of... well...

[wintry warren]

Actually I'm wrong here, this is about refunding bits back for real money. I can't find info on refunding bits back from the streamer to the viewer.

[hexed mauve]

yes, you can do that

[wintry warren]

The solution to that is automated refunds, but that is not a trivial system to set up. And again, it would give people who are trying to circumvent the filter another chance to try and get around it. One of the reasons that the filter works well is that you have to pay a cost even if your message is filtered.

[hexed mauve]

again, vedal would have to run some kind of software, since you cant refund channel point redeems either

[wintry warren]

you can refund channel point redeems

[hexed mauve]

mods told vedal they cant refund highlight messge

[wintry warren]

yeah it'd probably need to be a custom redeem

[hexed mauve]

ah there you go

[wintry warren]

but that shouldn't be difficult to set up, you can already have custom redeems with messages. For example you can have a redeem for an asmr streamer to read a certain message into the mic and the streamer can either accept or reject the message. If they reject, then the points are refunded.

[hexed mauve]

true

[wintry warren]

But again, there's an opportunity for abuse unless a mod actively decides who gets a refund and who is simply trying to circumvent the filter

[hexed mauve]

that way vedal could also make it only 'enabled' when stream is running, so people can't try to figure out what would be filterd

[wintry warren]

Yeah, so automated refunds are a bad idea, but it would be a good suggestion to make the free TTS a custom redeem that can be refunded manually by a mod if it is filtered. And then maybe message highlights can be made cheaper and go back to being gacha. 😉

[hexed mauve]

we really just need a refund queue that mods can go though

but that increases work for mods so

what if it was only if the sender asks, which also fixes the issue if someone was doing something automated

[wintry warren]

anyway, ultimately it's up to vedal to decide how he wants to handle filtering. It's an issue for bits donos as well so I'm sure it's already on his mind. But to get back on topic I don't think lowering the channel point cost is the right solution for the filtering issue.

[hexed mauve]

true

[hexed mauve]

🎉 vedal is gonna do it