Character interaction thingy

[subtle wolf]

The first four roles on TB are bad with poisoner

[unborn trellis]

"assume poisoner didn't hit unless you have to"

[humble lantern]

Every role is bad with poisoner

[tawny haven]

That's an interesting perspective — could you elaborate on it?

from my analysis the only reason Poisoner works on TB is because the Poisoner can't hit every YSK at once

[real heron]

My perspective is also that they’re good with poisoner cause they’re relatively more resilient when they get hit too

Instead of it being unclear whether they were affected or not, their high actionability means it’s louder when they have false info

[short crystal]

it’s worth noting that it isn’t solely the actionability that makes their poisoning obvious

it’s moreso that they can easily confirm their information

Shugenjas and Nobles are highly actionable but still pretty hard to tell when poisoned

[tawny haven]

Part of the reason why Poisoner works on TB is because most of the time, when you poison someone, it doesn't do anything

On most customs the Poisoner has several targets that are always good poisons that will always do something, which is why it ends up so strong

but poisoning a YSK past N1 doesn't do anything. Poisoning a Soldier, Ravenkeeper, or Mayor on a day they don't die (or non-f3 for the Mayor) does nothing. Poisoning a Virgin or Slayer on a day they don't activate their ability does nothing. Poisoning an Empath who's had the same neighbors or an Undertaker who's learning the Virgin-execute isn't doing anything if the ST knows what's good for them, and even the FT has reasons to get true info while poisoned

The nature of TB as a script makes it more likely for the Poisoner to not wreak havoc on a game like it often can on customs with characters like the Savant or Balloonist or Town Crier or Flowergirl or High Priestess or Oracle or what have you

[subtle wolf]

Sure! From a game design perspective, Poisoner is bad with characters that receive all their info N1 because (1) the poisoning choice is almost totally arbitrary (on TB it’s slightly informed by evil seating and the Empath) and (2) that character’s info is not only compromised, but ruined. We’ve all seen TB games where the evil win is like 70% the result of a lucky N1 poison, and as you explained, in other games, the poisoner is unlucky and does nothing and evil loses. This is bad design because it means a significant portion of the game outcome is dictated by a single decision, in a long game with many players and decisions, and that decision isn’t even strategic.

I think the YSKs on TB are not resilient to poison snipes. Chef is crippled by poisoner. Investigator has to execute twice and have an UT confirm both players, and either Inv or UT could be evil or Drunk. Librarian is somewhat resilient but can still learn a Drunk somewhere false. WW is the only truly resilient one, though poisoning can still work if evils handle the WW convo well.

I’ve had the debate before with a few people here whether Poisoner is better with ongoing info roles or YSKs. I think I was the only person who said ongoing info roles. When you have several roles learning info throughout a game, poisoner is less likely to do nothing and less likely to do everything—I’m not sure why you think Poisoner wreaks havoc on Savant, TC, Flowergirl, High Priestess, etc. The solving space is enormous, since each string of info from townsfolk can be poisoned on any given night, but the proportion of worlds that lead to executing the demon is balanced, because you know only one townsfolk can be poisoned at a time, and there is a heap of true information from the other abilities.

The problem with TB is that a poisoner gets to ruin the Investigator’s ability with a single night of their own ability, then mess around with the Fortune Teller all game, the latter interaction being balanced, but not when you combine it with the former. Or in another game, the poisoner will miss N1 and then have literally zero useful targets left.

[unborn trellis]

It’s balanced over several games

But it’s bad in every single game

The issue is simply botc does not have townsfolk’s that make fully solvable poisoner exist

This game’s townsfolk’s are too weak to handle that

N1 luck roll poisoner is the compromise that at least works in general

[subtle wolf]

Why does Poisoner need to be “fully solvable”?

[unborn trellis]

Fully solvable as to town can consider every possible sequence of poisons each night while still eliminating demon candidate

[subtle wolf]

With several ongoing info roles, each of which might be poisoned any given night, it’s not necessary to solve poison

It’s enough to generally work out where info leads, as a matter of likelihood

[unborn trellis]

Yes but each role being poisoned provide a different world

And most likely they cover every single living player as demon candidate when combined

[subtle wolf]

The increased number of worlds doesn’t increase the number of possible decisions as a town. You are still deciding between executing a few different players. It’s just that the tree of possibilities to reach those executions has more nodes

[unborn trellis]

If poison doesn’t increase possible demon candidates it does nothing

It does a lot bc it does increase demon candidates

[subtle wolf]

Of course poison increases possible demon candidates. That doesn’t negate my point

[unborn trellis]

Increased number of worlds increases number of possible decisions of town by a lot
Because every single executions are naturally possible
They don’t become possible because info lead to them
They become impossible because info point away from them

Poisoner does not stop possible worlds from being possible

But it stops impossible worlds from being impossible

[subtle wolf]

In a 12p game with 7 alive, there are only seven possible decisions

[unborn trellis]

But that doesn’t have to be the case

Or often that’s not the case

Often there are only 6 or less possible exes among the 7 players

Bc someone is confirmed non demon

[subtle wolf]

Right. What’s your point

[unborn trellis]

my point is if town need to consider all poisoner poison possibilities

The number is always 7

[subtle wolf]

“If town needs to” … they don’t, they roughly consider the heap of info from ongoing info roles and decide executions based on likelihood

[unborn trellis]

But likelihood of each poison is not identical starting from n2

Only on n1 town has the luxury of coping poisoner didn’t hit and treat n1 poisons as very unlikely worlds

Starting from n2 poisoner is making informed decision

You cannot decide likelihood this way because you do not know the chances of poisoner hitting

A person can be demon in 15 worlds while another person is demon in 5 worlds

[wary solstice]

I think it may be better to clarify the dynamics with worlds here.

If you have a Poisoner, one claim is that it's more likely to flatline the probability that players are the Demon, keep it roughly equivalent between all players.

If you had two games, one with seven players alive each with equal number of worlds with each player as the demon, versus another where one such player has six times as many possible worlds as the demon than anyone else, this introduces very different dynamics. Yes, everyone is still a Demon candidate in both games, but in the second game, someone is basically 50% chance the Demon.

[unborn trellis]

The issue is still each world is not equally possible because an informed poisoner exist
You can have A be demon in the 2 worlds where X or Y is poisoned
B be the demon in 1 worlds where Z is poisoned

But that doesn’t mean A is more likely demon

Because poisoner does not poison X Y and Z with equal likelihood

[subtle wolf]

Furthermore, you don’t have to list off every possible world and find the exact proportion to decide on an execution. You process this intuitively when info is shared, also considering social reads

[subtle wolf]

But Darrivis, this is only an issue if you’re trying to mathematically compute worlds, and nobody here is proposing that except you

[unborn trellis]

If you don’t what do you use to decide likelihood of worlds with all of them possible

Social is not an argument

Because you use it regardless of info

Info is meant to resolve things that socials are ambiguous on

And discussions regarding info are based on that socials are ambiguous in this case

[subtle wolf]

You use inductive reasoning to make a general, intuitive decision, which is a similar reasoning process as making social reads. We already do this in every BOTC game—nobody lists off all possible worlds and calculates who to execute based on that. Poisoner being involved doesn’t change this

[unborn trellis]

The issue is intuitive worlds usually doesn’t include a poisoner poison being necessary
You can have it be “anyone” or “no one”

But that just means with a poisoner who hits you lose until you learn

And a poisoner who hits is just

Much more likely starting from n2

The fact that you’re treating intuitive worlds as primary is because they compose of worlds without a poisoner and a bad poisoner

But that’s less likely the case when you have infoscape different from TB

[wary solstice]

"nobody lists off all possible worlds and calculates who to execute based on that"

Hoi!

[unborn trellis]

Like, my claim is solving based off ongoing info means intuitive worlds are less correct now

Because poisoner having a higher hit rate means worlds that contain exact pinpoint poisons are more likely to be true

And it doesn’t even have to be pinpoint lots of time

[short crystal]

i mean we can at least admit that it's incredibly uncommon to play this way

[unborn trellis]

TB is not solvable and not meant to be
Because it’s copeable

[short crystal]

it's almost always a combination of mechanics and socials that rarely takes percentages into account

[unborn trellis]

Coping poisoner missing n1 is a real and effective strategy

Because you’re allowed to treat each poison with equal likelihood

Which is why you can treat worlds that require more specific poisons as much less likely that you can ignore them until they’re becoming really likely due to socials

[subtle wolf]

I think your assessment of Poisoner is colored by people being relatively open about their role on TB, where poisoner is not a huge threat after N1 and where Spy sometimes directs poisoner. On customs with more ongoing info, players are incentivized to be cagey with their roles, and poisoner does not repeatedly snipe

[unborn trellis]

So what you mean is town need to hide more so they can treat each poison as roughly same chances of occurring

The issue with that is it’s still very ambiguous possibilities

Like I can say poisoner poisoning “washerwoman” and “ravenkeeper” on n1 is same chance

But can you really say poisoner poisoning “undertaker claiming ravenkeeper” is less likely than poisoning “fortune teller claiming fortune teller” on n2?

And samely

Even If both undertaker and fortune teller are being equally less open

That doesn’t give them same chances of being poisoned n2

Because socials reads from evil players now come into play

[subtle wolf]

No, this is not what I’m saying. I’m saying town mitigates some of poisoner’s power by being less open with roles, and you overcome poisoner’s somewhat informed decisions by inductive reasoning, which we already use in literally every BOTC game

[unborn trellis]

I don’t think that deviates a lot?

The reason that you can do inductive intuitive reasoning is that you’re allowed to not consider different poisons with arbitrary possibilities

But consider with “observable from town side” possibilities

Because mechanic wise, intuitive is really just roughly the equivalent of “accurate poison snipes not required”

Social wise intuition is just social reads

But again you’re using it regardless of info and poison

We’re talking about how having info despite poisoner can help with it

[frigid flower]

Games are not meant to be solved 100%

If they were and the good team solved it means the evil team has lost in the spot

[fervent basalt]

it wreaks havoc with flowergirl/town crier since a lot of the action of those roles' info are based on multiple nights, not just one

i think poisoner is perfectly fine with high priestess personally

[quartz girder]

imo its completely fine with flowergirl because even one day of flowergirl info is incredibly powerful

[fervent basalt]

depends on the rest of the script imo

[rose oriole]

I want to see a game where people actually say “this world doesn’t work because it requires two players to be poisoned on the same night”

The complexity of solving poisoner is not O(p^n), it’s O(Alsaahir)

(P = players, n = nights)

[forest spindle]

this is how you solve tb (at least as much as possible)

[still sedge]

Drunk exists that’s the thing

[unborn trellis]

This world doesn’t work because these 7 players cannot all be evil, Drunk or poisoned at the same time

[still sedge]

Except who builds worlds that niche

[umbral rune]

03/31 Fang Gu X Scarlet Woman

I get a lot of complaints and long stories when I put these 2 on the same script but I see these commonly together on custom scripts and I do not hate them. I think the spite mostly comes from the nature of being a normal SW. "If we execute the SW 1st we then execute the outsiders", well any SW executed before the Demon does not do anything anyway but how do you automatically know it is Fang Gu and know who the Scarlet Woman is? thoughts?

[still sedge]

wayyy too much demon mobility to end up with “The demon is”

It’s probably because it ends up in demon 33s

[real heron]

Of the many customs I’ve seen that have fang Gu on them, I see it being mishandled in a large majority of them

Scarlet Woman/Fang Gu is often part of that, but isn’t inherently bad. The main difficulty with scripting these two well is they are both incredibly powerful characters that synergise with each other quite a lot

Generally, I’d advise against it because it’s so strong, often leading to arbitrary game states where there are a large number of demon candidates and it stops being fun for the good team to engage with

[still sedge]

Yea

The funny thing is uh

Outsiders sometimes

lie in BoTC (YOU WON’T BELIEVE #2)

[unborn trellis]

It’s well, too much demon mobility

But think about this way

Uh, if you replace one of them with another quiet demon/minion

You’re likely gonna get misinfo instead now…

Maybe demon mobility isn’t that bad after all

[umbral rune]

Interesting, this is the opposite perspective of players who look at scripts who say it is too weak. I mean maybe I am strange but I think it is fine for instead of there being let's say 3 players who are 90% the Demon there can be 6 players who vary from 20% to 80% the Demon is fine. Depends on the script for sure

[still sedge]

Most people think poisoner is like

[real heron]

Yeah

[still sedge]

A healthy amount of misinfo with Nodashii

[real heron]

Exactly

Like, Extension Cord doesn’t really need poisoner

For example

[unborn trellis]

Personally I don’t hate this interaction mainly because the replacements will be bad

Like I can see if fang gu scarlet works fine on a script

A functional replacement of any of this two means adding misinfo

So this interaction just isn’t so strong

[still sedge]

And fang Gu+misinfo= of course, nuclear Armageddon.

As we all know.

[unborn trellis]

What if the misinfo is an innkeeper who plays bad

[real heron]

Right but alternatively: “skill issue, change the script to make the new version work”

Idk. Refusing to kill your darlings or not doing things cause it’s too drastic of a difference is (imo) not a reasonable justification for consciously keeping a script in a suboptimal space

[still sedge]

Fang+Innkeeper=I have questions

[still sedge]

I refuse to kill pacifist on my legion script

[unborn trellis]

Kill this guy

[still sedge]

Lowkey considering how braindead easy it is to disprove DA I think it’s fine with fang gu

(For reference, Evil twin.)

[unborn trellis]

Well I mean you don’t have to play the game with working info…
It’s just bad that way

[real heron]

As SNV highlights, Fang Gu doesn’t need any/many worldbuilding expansions from minions or outsiders

[unborn trellis]

The world building expansion is called pithag fang gu

[still sedge]

which is fine

[real heron]

Yeah but like… that’s not nearly the same as SW/FG, right?

[still sedge]

we have savant for that

[real heron]

There’s also flowergirl

And oracle

[still sedge]

Flowergirl isn’t that good at it

[unborn trellis]

That sounds like savant is the only helpful thing…

[still sedge]

oracle helps?

[still sedge]

Huh. Fisherman might have another use on my legion script

[real heron]

It kind of depends on what pit hag is doing. Cause if the other haggings are loud, the good team can figure out when the jump happened

(by the fact that there was no pit hag on that night)

[unborn trellis]

but you need info following the jump

You can be 100% sure it happened and..what

[still sedge]

If the fang Gu doesn’t jump immediately this is less effective

Unless the outsiders are fucking outing for some reason

In which case, why

[unborn trellis]

Aside from this em

[real heron]

Yeah that’s true. Although generally less likely

[unborn trellis]

I think fang gu scarlet itself is fine

[still sedge]

Yea

[real heron]

Idfk, ask my group who went from 3 outsiders to 0 in the span of two days of SNV

[still sedge]

Living?

or like

[real heron]

All of them outed to get themselves executed

They all outed before dying

[still sedge]

Wa

[unborn trellis]

Or like I think it’s good bc it lets fang gu know the timing to jump better

[still sedge]

uh

Ok broskis

what

a

[unborn trellis]

A fang gu without scarlet can just die to unsignaled suspicion after a night of no jump

[still sedge]

play

[real heron]

Yeah no was mega cringe when one of them complained in a later game where they outed as an outsider and got jumped to and then got executed the next day

[unborn trellis]

But if the scarlet caught fang gu surely the following suspicion is more predictable

[real heron]

Like lmao what do you expect

[unborn trellis]

Erm guys I’m a bad jump target cuz I outed

Surely this townsfolk claim was jumped

[real heron]

Yeah was crazy cause the sage died n2, then that outsider was jumped, then they were executed and lost

[unborn trellis]

It’s 100% reasonable but is true 0% of the time

So sadly yeah…

[real heron]

Thing is, the reason they were executed was because they outed and became a demon candidate

Cause if they didn’t claim, town was building vortox

[still sedge]

Consider lying as an outsider

[real heron]

Yeah probably

[still sedge]

it might be useful.

[unborn trellis]

When do we play with snv -pithag +baron

[still sedge]

Never

Because pithag is actually fun

[real heron]

Demon-centred o-mod is a core part of the script’s identity. Also pit hag is the entire engine for shenanigans imo

[edgy socket]

Perfectly fine interaction, they're very strong roles but it amounts to a maximum of two demon changes per game which is below what Imp and LM work at in many games -- the supersynergy is not in the demon mobility but in extra evil + safety net, and this is both homescript (Evil Twin) and something Fang Gu handles significantly better than a lot of +evils because of the starting Fang Gu needing to die

In particular, this interaction basically lacks most of the failure modes of extra evil + safety net because the safety net turns off right around the time evil's voting power comes online

(living +evils with safety nets rapidly gets more dangerous but isn't necessarily a crime against humanity in every script context)

[subtle wolf]

The power of these characters to move the demon add linearly, not exponentially. This just means the demon and one minion are fighting town in a similar way. It’s not a problem.

The mechanical interaction isn’t too notable, but I like the possibility of a Scarlet Woman catching and then passing to an Outsider, or an Outsider-turned-Fang Gu sending demonhood back into the OG evil team. I especially like a Fang Gu starpassing to SW, followed by a jump. These are just cool interactions, and it’s cool for so many players to change roles and play as demon.

Perhaps most importantly, this pair is simply two of the best character designs. Interactions between great characters tend to work because the characters are great. Don’t overthink it

[edgy socket]

A lot of the critical responses feel tuned for something like Fang Gu/DA where the synergy gets stronger late rather than them peaking at different times

[subtle wolf]

Great point. I wonder if Fang Gu is slightly weaker in large games, where they’re more likely to jump early and leave town time to solve the new demon placement. That would counterbalance Scarlet Woman’s being slightly stronger in large games.

[subtle wolf]

Is there even a possible script that benefits from having ND/Poisoner?

[boreal nest]

Huh?!

[still sedge]

Not one I’d enjoy

[short crystal]

maybe smth focused around acrobat

since Acrobats can decimate No Dashiis, Poisoner isn't a bad confound

would probs suck for every other townsfolk tho

[unborn trellis]

Poisoner decimates acrobat tho

[quartz girder]

acrobat works great with poisoner wdym? you dont get to find out where the evil team is vs no dashii ig but you still get to help confirm ppls information as sober

[grand token]

too low an upside for a whole TF ability

its still poisoner

[fringe mirage]

4/1: Buddhist x God of Ug

[weak ingot]

https://tenor.com/view/worthless-gif-25136352

[grand token]

nothingburger

[subtle wolf]

I don’t see a notable interaction here. Is there a particular dynamic you find interesting between these?

[still sedge]

Veterans get free ug votes

Can’t break ug if you don’t speak

[tawny haven]

maybe because it's april fools?

[grand token]

the act of not speaking is arguably mechanically breaking ug and gameplay wise makes the loric pointless and boring

[deft stirrup]

this one is quite mid as no yap and one yap do not mix.

[green fiber]

ah dang it i had such a good april fools one

this one is a great tho too

amazing interaction I love Buddhist best fabled OAT

[fringe mirage]

This is why

[umbral rune]

04/2 Pixie X Spy

I used Pixie to mask a Typhon line and the good team was disheartened. In general I think it is better for the Spy to bluff Pixie then for the Pixie to see the Spy and have them killed. Idk what metas are in modern times

[still sedge]

Do people really kill their pixie targets

[subtle wolf]

I consider this pair to have negative synergy.

Pixie benefits from being on script with other reasons for double-claims because town can't immediately know why the double-claim exists. Some of those other causes might be: Cerenovus, Mutant, Poppy Grower, Magician, or Legion; sometimes, minions just don't feel comfortable seeing their demon privately and they guess at a bluff that happens to be double-claimed. When double-claims are difficult for town to parse, the Pixie faces a dilemma whether pursuing their extra ability is worth giving town that puzzle, and giving evils cover for choosing the wrong bluff. And it's not a yes/no decision, either: there might be ways of trying to indicate Pixie-madness, or choosing to give up the bluff after town square becomes chaotic, etc. Pixie is a richer character in that setting than when bluffing for the extra ability is always the right choice.

Spy is the opposite vibe, the best minion at blending into town, and they always know out-of-play characters so they never have to enter a double claim. Of course a Spy can intentionally double-claim someone to bluff Pixie, but the possibility of evils accidentally entering a double-claim is diminished, so Pixie basically always goes for it

[tawny haven]

I think it's fine? Pixies in general will settle on confirming their targets (even if they get them killed), and to that end the Spy does a pretty good job screwing them over. The tricky part is the fact that the Pixie gets a sober Townsfolk ability once the Spy dies, but the Demon will know about that and can shut it off when it starts mattering. Pretty fun interaction, but not much sauce to it.

[grand token]

i think its fine scripted together. spy lends good double claims less suspicion, too.

[forest spindle]

I think its a fine interaction. Not extraordinairly great not extraordinairly bad

[real heron]

They generally pull the game in opposite directions socially (pixie leading to good double claims, spy reducing evil-centred double claims) in a way that I think can be interesting

Depending on how impactful the spy’s misreg wants/needs to be in a setup, it can be kind of nice as an option, but I kind of just like pixie being a relatively straightforward info role that has a bunch of socials attached to obfuscate/weaken it

I think this pair needs intentional thought but can def be a positive impact to a script if done right

[tawny haven]

I think a risk that this combo does have is incentivizing Pixies to back down and play diet Washerwoman, which isn't the most fun

[frigid flower]

It is worse that Pixie Vortox

[subtle wolf]

Pixie Vortox is fantastic

[frigid flower]

Yeah Pixie Vortox its peak the insane reaction to the pixie savant getting information while faking to have any its just soo peak

And then the small minority of people being like it is super legion what the hell

[sudden drift]

Is Pixie Vortox good? Pixie feels super jank with N1 misinfo, because it's impossible for anyone to tell who's supposed to die for the Pixie to get their ability

[frigid flower]

Yeah thats the jank part but it is a key vortox solver

They declare they have an out of play ability that activated when X player died confirming them at the very least good player

[subtle wolf]

Pixie Vortox is great. You can give a demon bluff to Pixie then move the token to whichever evil takes the bluff. Pixie can also learn the TF learned by Drunk.

[unborn trellis]

Lowkey idk if that works
Or like if you’re allowed to mark an evil as mad target

By reading off the wiki you have to mark a townsfolk as mad

But maybe you can get away with it by RAI

[subtle wolf]

From #experimental-how-to-run:

If Pixie is droisoned night 1: the storyteller can show the Pixie any Townsfolk token, whether in play or not. The storyteller then places the "Mad" token next to any player they like. When that player dies, the Pixie gains the Townsfolk ability they were shown regardless of the actual ability that player had.

The How-To-Run doesn't say anything about Vortox.

The Pixie's mechanical function of gaining an ability is not affected by Vortox, and it is reasonable to place the token on a non-TF. It's also reasonable because tokens are reminders for the ST, not a direct part of the game

[still sedge]

You mark anyone as the player they’re mad for if misinfo occurs

[unborn trellis]

Cool

[still sedge]

Which had the really whimsical effect of “getting the balloonist ability from the flowergirl”

[unborn trellis]

But don’t

[still sedge]

It’s based on a true story

[unborn trellis]

Vortox is sad enough

[still sedge]

Make better scripts than SNV

[green fiber]

b-b-but token integrity

[quartz girder]

if a token is changed in the grimoire and no spy hears it, did it really change?

[still pasture]

for the sake of a fun and interesting game one can argue this is a moment where we can allow ourselves to not necessarily be as strict with token integrity

[frigid flower]

Yeah

[umbral rune]

I love token integrity!

[umbral rune]

Drunk Pixie in a Vortox game is great!

[subtle wolf]

04/03 Storm Catcher x Cerenovus

[jaunty tapir]

I'm sure if you've scripted them together then you're cognizant of this and probably are okay with it, but I really don't like the way the cerenovus can shut off the stormcaught character. It's like king + cerenovus: it ruins much of the point of the interaction and what makes it special. I agree that ceremaddening players into the stormcaught role is fun, but starting the game knowing a probably important townsfolk who can't be dealt with otherwise is a really good target and I don't think it's particularly interesting that way

Much of the fun of being storm-caught is being able to be public about your role because evil can't kill you, and I think it'd suck to be the stormcaught role and not get to share anything until at least like halfway through the game

[subtle wolf]

A few questions to consider:
(1) Is it always strategic for the Cerenovus to lock down the Stormcaught player? Is this feelsbad?
(2) What about Cerenovus locking other good players into the stormcaught role?
(3) Does it depend on which character is stormcaught? What type of townsfolk would make this fun? What about Outsiders?

One cheeky possibility is the Cerenovus locking down the stormcaught player and then claiming the stormcaught role themself to stay alive as long as possible💀

Some of the evil characters are clearly too destructive for a stormcaught Townsfolk. In my view, Cerenovus rides that line, and it's debatable and contextual whether the interaction works.

[still sedge]

or the demon does it

"I'm ceremad" or "They're ceremad"

[subtle wolf]

I have this pair on Caravan with Goblin, which can let the stormcaught, cere-mad Balloonist stave off execution and hope to outlive the Cerenovus. Maybe there are other characters like Goblin with a similar positive effect

In general, I wonder if the Cerenovus has enough creative ideas on a good script that cere-locking the stormcaught player isn't a default move

Also, the more useful for town a stormcaught character is, the more incentive that player has to be soft-confirmed by eventually breaking cere-madness and outing their info to town. And when a powerful townsfolk is stormcaught, that tends to slightly favor town, which Cerenovus might counteract. I'm speculating

[fervent basalt]

i could see this working with something like lunatic stormcaught?

[short crystal]

I think I agree with Magica where if the stormcaught character is a powerful info role then the Cerenovus cere-locking them becomes a very efficient play that happens often and that seems very unfun

[tawny haven]

It's an interaction I've seen on a lot of scripts, and tbh, from experience I think it's fine. Making other people mad about being the stormcaught character is hilarious. Cerelocking the stormcaught player is tough, but "kill the Cerenovus" is legitimate counterplay (i.e. don't script it with Vigor).

The main script I've played with this interaction on is Whose Cult is it Anyway, and it's insanely fun to have a ton of Cult Leader claims running around

It's also a very good bluff for an evil bluffing the stormcaught character, since it has gamewarping implications.

[fervent basalt]

[4/4] Magician x Vizier

If the Vizier is in play, the Magician has no ability but is immune to the Vizier's ability.

[real heron]

The definition of self-confirming info less role (ie, not particularly fun)
The demon can just kill the magician the night of the magician surviving, so it isn’t particularly damaging for evil. And it’s not particularly valuable for good, since there’s no info associated either

[quartz girder]

we need a ranking of all magician jinxes

[unborn trellis]

They’re all F

Just from Fa to Fu

[quartz girder]

i think spidow jinx

is okey

[jaunty tapir]

yeah the jinxes with spy and widow are functional and well designed, not especially great or interesting but they do what a jinx ought to do. The rest I find to all be disappointing at best. This one in particular I find:
a) very confusing, "immune" is not a defined word and this could be interpreted as your one good vote not letting a player get slammed or it could mean not being able to be slammed or it could mean being able to be slammed but not dying if you are. I'm gonna assume it's the second one, because I think it makes the most sense
b) very weak, if this is the case and I'm right about what it does. Soldier gets flak for being weak, and this is just a way worse reverse soldier. You can trivially be killed at night, but the vizier (who knows who you are) can't automatically kill you? And vizier I find to be one of the weakest minions, if not the weakest minion already, so it's not like you're protecting yourself from something strong. Mayyybe I could see this with like the psychopath being unable to kill you? But vizier slamming just isn't enough.

not to mention that pulling the magician token is probably incredibly underwhelming and not a fun role once a vizier gets announced. Congrats, your ability means the vizier can't kill you during the day, but they know who you are and so would never slam anyways. I am a big advocate for being able to play "boring roles" to your advantage/getting maximum value out of your ability, but this puts most of the agency in another player's hands and not yours. You still can be trivially removed if you're confirmed, unlike a soldier on TB or a fool on BMR

[wary solstice]

" You can trivially be killed at night, but the vizier (who knows who you are) can't automatically kill you? "

The jinx specifies that the Magician does not have an ability, which means the Evil Team should learn each other normally and doesn't know learn the Magician as one of their fellow Evils and doesn't know who the Magician is.

[jaunty tapir]

oh, I didn't realize that the magician itself has no ability. The ability gains some merit then, in the sense that you can bait out a vizier execution in hopes of confirming yourself, but this seems like a more convoluted nightwatchman or virgin or some such: like a banshee, who confirms themself upon successfully baiting a kill, but then the magician doesn't get voting power

I still think it's too weak for it to be fun, the reward isn't worth the effort required to get it when in comparison to roles like it (either in playstyle, like banshee, or in effect, like NWM/virgin)

[umbral rune]

Why does this have a jinx? Do both the Demon and the Magician not just claim Demon to the Vizier and the Vizier has to solve? Maybe I could see "The Magician might register as evil to the Vizier" but otherwise idk why this exists

[still sedge]

the demon can just....

[summer adder]

if its a multiple minion game the demon can go, hi im the demon, here's the other minion(s), and therefore for a magician to successfully fool the vizier they have to correctly guess the other minion(s)

[still sedge]

say who the other minions are(the magician would literally have to guess the demon, which is a good opg learn if a player is a demon or not but that's really ehhhhh)

[still sedge]

even in 1 minion

you'd have to guess the demon as a magi

[summer adder]

right

[unborn trellis]

Why does vizier need to know who is demon who is magi

[umbral rune]

I mean depends on the meta but if you as the Magician force the Demon to approach the Vizier I think that is worth even if you fail to guess the minions

[still sedge]

vizier sees 2 demons

demon sees 2 minions, one of which is the vizier

If a "demon" cannot guess the other, they are the magician

[real heron]

The thing is the vizier can just say ‘ok, tell me the remaining evil team’

And then it’s just done

So it’s not like RAW actually means the magician has an ability if the vizier has a brain about it

[subtle wolf]

Lol whut is that jinx

[still sedge]

a jinx that got standardized

the old jinx was "The demon doesn't learn the minions if a vizier and magician are in play"

new jinxes bad old jinxes good

[weak ingot]

it's not even good standard because no one knows what immune means

[still sedge]

No as in like

“These are all the same jinx type now. Lol”

[weak ingot]

yes i know what you m eant

i'm saying it's not even doing its job at being a standardisation since it introduces keywords that have no definition to botc

which sucks

old jinx good new jinx bad

[grand token]

bad and horrible jinx

it doesnt particularly make sense. it removes the whole point of magi being onscript, for whatever that is. turns it into a budget fool/soldier science role that really doesnt provide the magician any ability to impact the game past self confirming

[tawny haven]

I mean, the Magician has to do something in a game with an announced Vizier, and this turns it into kind of a bait role where the Magician wants to lie in order to get slammed and hardconfirm themselves

[fervent basalt]

it sounds kinda interesting to me

never actually seen it though

[fervent basalt]

i think in fairness 'immune' is probably equivalent to 'safe' in the monk ability

[weak ingot]

should've just used safe then

also that still doesn't mean anything what does that mean

does that mean that the magicians good vote doesn't count to vizier exe?

does that mean magician can't be forced executed? does it just mean execution, but no death?

[fervent basalt]

i assume the vizier can't push it through on the magician

[weak ingot]

the assumption is the whole issue here

it's quite honestly annoying to have to explain how you're running jinxes every time

[fervent basalt]

i feel like that's more an issue of tpi not telling us how these jinxes work

than the interaction itself

[weak ingot]

the vagueness is a part of the interaction because you need to talk about the several dozen ways this can mechanically effect change

[fervent basalt]

i mean it's pretty easy to just explain at the start of the game no?

[weak ingot]

it varies from ST to ST

you need to bootleg or script note if you want a specific one

it earnestly is more hassle than it is worth

[fervent basalt]

idt it's more hassle than like storm catcher, ogre, hatter tbh

[weak ingot]

saying the stormcaught character is part of the storm catcher ability

no one uses chaos hatter

[fervent basalt]

i mean people do use chaos hatter

[weak ingot]

hyperbolically

[fervent basalt]

it still comes up though

[weak ingot]

ogre stuff is usually just not being mean

[fervent basalt]

hyperbolically nobody runs this jinx lol

[weak ingot]

this one actually has significant differences in how the jinx affects the game

[fervent basalt]

it does but it isn't any harder to explain for a given game i feel

like you can just say when you're reading the jinx out "...so this means the vizier can't force an execution through on the magician"

for instance

[weak ingot]

can't should be will be denied from

[frigid flower]

Only good one is marionette its fun

The lil monsta one is cool too

But i am still not sure if makes the lil monsta minions not know each other

[edgy socket]

It doesn't, the previous jinx was identical on this axis and explicitly did not

[frigid flower]

Alright cool

It does make poppy magician even more mean to the lil baby

[subtle wolf]

04/05 Vigormortis x Psychopath

[umbral rune]

I prefer a totally silent set of Minions than after that Minions that are loud to very few players (S&V type Minions). After that I will kill as a psychopath if it is optimal but hard confirming Vigormortis feels wrong. Midnight Oasis is still fun I just think some of the synergies of the script should not be used on most other scripts

[subtle wolf]

Is it generally worth confirming Vigor to have an extra kill each day? Is it imbalanced towards one team or the other? Should Psychopath kill D1 before knowing whether it’s a Vigor game? What characters make or break the combo?

[still sedge]

Psycho shouldn’t kill until they know a decent idea of “who are demon candidates”

[unborn trellis]

Vigor killing psychopath is likely only worth it til the end

Bc you can create a true f4

psychopath cannot make a final day with 4 non psychopath players

[real heron]

Psycho doesn’t need safety after outing

Otherwise, I like a psycho who holds it to f3 and this is one of the best ways to enable that

So it kind of requires psycho to be played differently, which feels odd

[subtle wolf]

I hadn’t considered a dead psycho holding until F3 and auto-winning. That feels anti-climactic

[still sedge]

So can assassin

[real heron]

It’s definitely something I’ve seen. Like 20-30% of psychos I’ve seen have tried to do that in some way

[still sedge]

Get exed on 6

[real heron]

Yep. 50% of those attempts don’t work so LOL

[subtle wolf]

The strat might be balanced because evil has to reach F3 with a dead, non-functioning minion, and evil deserves the win atp, but the game just… ends 🙁

F3 is the best moment in BOTC

[still sedge]

Nooooo you hate BMR

[subtle wolf]

BMR sometimes reaches the excitement of F3 in other final day scenarios

[unborn trellis]

But that’s not a reason to cut off many things that aren’t rlly broken

Psychopath holding while dead until f3 is the same as vigor assassin

I mean the interaction isn’t great for other reasons

[fervent basalt]

would something like plague doctor or yaggababble improve this?

such that dead minions could pretend to be a vigorkilled psychopath

[real heron]

Plague Doctor doesn't do anything to this interaction
Yag technically interacts with psycho, but I don't think it has scripting support to do so at the moment

[fervent basalt]

was just thinking about a dead minion faking this via day deaths

[tawny haven]

Fun interaction, but needs to be scripted carefully. Outing Vigor tends to be disastrous most of the time, so encourages hidden Psychopath (at which point it tends to be like Vigor/Assassin in terms of play pattern). Overall positive; just be careful.

[subtle wolf]

Is this meant as a justification for Vigor/Psychopath? I would just say that one is also anti-climactic

[subtle wolf]

Vigor-killed Harpy can imitate Psychopath

[fervent basalt]

that too yeah

[umbral rune]

My 1st and only time ever ST-ing Vigormortis and Harpy was when the Harpy chose 2 dead players the night before final 3

[unborn trellis]

Yeah but anti climatic is probably the least unfun one among all the unfun factors

That it’s fine for it to exist

I think letting things be anti climatic is a fine trade off for more dynamics

[subtle wolf]

04/06 Undertaker x Cannibal

[frigid flower]

Cannibal waking up to see undertaker its very funny

[real heron]

They generally shouldn’t interact (ie, be on the same script), but they serve very interesting and different purposes on different scripts

My take is: most scripts that can accommodate one has a hard time accommodating the other, so they are quite often different characters from a scripting perspective

[sudden drift]

An Undertaker can tell a Cannibal which nights they got sober info. I prefer + for that interaction though.

[umbral rune]

If there are valid reasons for both to be on same script it is fine but they mechanically do different things: undertaker is for confirming yourself to players you have not spoken with an creating interesting worlds with droisoning/recluse + SW where Minions and Demons being dead is interesting. Cannibal is okay but becomes above average with OPGs. Therefore if the script has enough OPGs and a droisoning recluse SW package by definition it probably works well with both Cannibal and Undertaker

[subtle wolf]

I often see Cannibal called "spicy Undertaker" or some other moniker that associates the characters, but they're fairly different and might synergize positively.

What most interests me about this combo is an evil bluffing one while the other is in play. You're naturally going to have a grim-peeker on script, so evils can bluff Undertaker to undermine the interpretation of Cannibal info, or create fake Cannibal info supported by true Undertaker info. Droison increases the possibilities exponentially.

On Trouble Brewing, the thought process surrounding Spy/UT gets a bit stale: "Since you guessed my role, you're either the Undertaker or Spy." "Since Undertaker is one of my three bluffs, one of the minions is a Spy." With a grim-peeker, Undertaker, and Cannibal (which is a bit easier to bluff), there are more configurations of bluffing and more choices for evils. I especially like when evils bluff both and have an excuse to coordinate every day.

It's possible that Undertaker removes what's most interesting about Cannibal. Cannibal is cool when evils and the Drunk volunteer for execution and lead the Cannibal to proclaim false info. A real Undertaker would sort through this puzzle. Maybe the possibility of evils bluffing counteracts this enough. I'm not sure.

[unborn trellis]

I see them being ok but I won’t rlly put both on script

Undertaker learns what is the executee

Cannibal learns “assuming executee is good”, then [info]

I don’t like them together because both of them relies on the executee to have actionable info to make their own info actionable

Having both in the bag can have awkward situations where town has 2 big info roles that doesn’t actually help

Same for oracle + cannibal

Also I do think they have decently different dynamics

They both encourage town to execute someone rather than no one

But the main difference is undertaker empathizes the gain from executing an evil by having simply stronger info when killing an evil

While cannibal smoothes the loss from executing a good since they get extra usage of the info

yes undertaker can self confirm by calling the correct role of the good executee

But realistically cannibal can also do that decently well

Even if you think of TB, guess a player as 1 of the 4 top 4s is the same difficulty for undertaker bluff vs cannibal bluff

[tawny haven]

I really want to put both on a script someday, but the fact of the matter is that they tend to have really similar functions by way of encouraging executions

They tend to do different things on a script, though -- the UT is very potent at narrowing hidden Outsiders and evil players, and works nicely with more arbitrary misinfoscapes, while the Cannibal more strongly encourages the execution of good players earlygame for extremely potent OPG and YSK ability reloads

[boreal nest]

main difference i believe is one requires outside dissinfo and or grim peekers to be bluffable while the other doesnt but should prob not be on a script with powerful once per game abilities like nightwatchman etc

[forest spindle]

Combine them with a spy and a boomdandy and I see no issue

[boreal nest]

spy is not bad

with either of em

[unborn trellis]

Nah just put TB + cannibal

I see it fine

[subtle wolf]

04/07 General x High Priestess

[unborn trellis]

They don’t interact

Well you can send high priestess to a general who just learnt important info

But that’s just doubling the confusion

General doesn’t need to know their info is important, any general info that’s not “mid” is important

They need to find out why is it important which the hp ping won’t tell them anyway

Alternatively you can ping general differently based off how HP interacted with their ping

But most of the time it contributes too little to the situation (comparing to other things) that general won’t ping of it

[frigid flower]

+Drunk and now they do interact

[unborn trellis]

How😭

The main reason I see them being on the same scripts isn’t bc they interact

It’s bc they both fit in the role of a “Each night info role that’s not strong”

[wary solstice]

An interaction I can see is if the General's rating swings drastically from one night to the next, it's highly likely the High Priestess' ping is someone to talk to due to the ping's relation to the major swing?

[subtle wolf]

Bro’s about to get educated /j

[subtle wolf]

Some people think these fulfill the same script purpose of providing meta-info and therefore should not be paired. Other people think they are sufficiently different to be on the same script, and maybe even synergize in the ways y’all explained already

[unborn trellis]

Fulfilling same purpose is good when they don’t get redundant info

It’s more often not “this script needs X type character”

But “only X type character works on the script”

In which case yeah you want as much as you can throw in

Which I can see for these 2

[unborn trellis]

Decently often this is…actually the case

like, you want a each night info role on the script
But FT empath chambermaid dreamer is straight up op here
VI has weird interactions
And you don’t have the prerequisite for math to be meaningful

Well here’s your options

[subtle wolf]

The reason they don’t seem to interact is that they don’t mechanically interact. They are primarily social roles that are more strong and more different if town plays proactively and theatrically, accusing people, building worlds fervently, and going for plays. I think the play-style that leads one to think General is a weak Townsfolk—namely, mellow and analytical—is simply not suited for the character, and that play-style would also lead to games where General and High Priestess are too similar in their dullness

I can imagine a grim where they do become redundant, though. Throw in General, High Priestess, Balloonist, Mathematician, Fisherman. That would be a depressing game full of self-reference.

[unborn trellis]

Surely fisherman gets real info

Balloonist doesn’t bc they die n2

[unborn trellis]

I think not…necessarily

It’s actually interesting to HP

Let’s say you send HP to one of them whoever doesn’t matter

Evil bluffs something with actionable info n1

That’s reasonably sus from hp’s perspective

[subtle wolf]

Yea, you’re right. I was just trying to combine all the meta-info at once

[unborn trellis]

However ofc evil might also bluff soldier and recluse in this bag

Well gg I guess😄

[subtle wolf]

Wdym

[still sedge]

Analyzing general info is more fun

Than like

A noble ping

[rose oriole]

Sure, but what does the HP have to do with it

[wraith parcel]

I think both roles like being on the same kind of scripts, so they generally work well together, but there isn't much interaction beyond that

[weak ingot]

why are people saying High Priestess and General don't interact???

High Priestess ping conclusions are a great statistically significant variable for ST winning opinion

if i sent the HP to the minion without a bluff in a poppy game and the Minion played it up incredibly well i'd tick the General down

it's a perfectly reasonable and fine interaction

if they don't interact for you, you gotta start analysing the current socials in game state more

[short crystal]

yeah I hard agree with Coda here

General and HP are both analyzing the game from a social perspective but do so in different dimensions and so I find they mesh together quite nicely, I love pairing them together

hmmmmm if only there was a way to figure out who was winning each night 🤔

[umbral rune]

I have never done this but you send the HP to the Puzzlemaster the same night the general learns a 5 it is pretty difficult to misinterpret what is happening and what is happening is quite strong

[umbral rune]

Well those people are wrong because they are separate mechanically: General summarizes the direction town is heading while high priestess highlights a person that has something important happening with them, the only similarity is they are each night ongoing info with general being stronger if it can live longer while high priestess is consistently strong

Overall I think a script that can have large mechanical swings and also has characters that can swing the game if highlighted then they both work well on a script that meets both of those conditions

[subtle wolf]

Learns a 5?

[umbral rune]

5 star general is more flavorful, powerful, and fun for the general. 5 is good is strongly winning

[subtle wolf]

Ahh. I don’t wanna retread 3-star vs 5-star but I’m in favor of running General as written

[real heron]

They comment on the game state in very different ways:

High Priestess is proactive and wants to take action on someone’s info or perspective

General is mostly reactive, where the info is mostly referencing the game state as a whole as it evolves throughout a game and evaluates the difference from night to night, compared to some global ‘neutral’ (actioning General information is about analysing the difference from day to day and making conclusions based on that)

High priestess is very specific to a player, where a general is thinking more about the game as a whole (or maybe their own perspective, rather than someone else’s)

They don’t have a clear interaction, since general is very specifically not commenting about one specific person’s information 95% of the time, let alone one particular ability more than another

General just doesn’t interact strongly with characters, it’s more interacting with gamestates and larger dynamics of a game/script

Idk what other people have said, but that’s my take on the characters and why they weakly/don’t interact

[forest spindle]

I agree with most of this. I think General has some really strong interactions with Heretic and Legion though, since they completely flip the gamestate, but maybe thats a discussion for another day

[real heron]

Yeah that’s fair, I didn’t consider those

[fervent basalt]

i feel like surely sending the hp to the general can be useful to analyze general info

[frigid flower]

Finally we get a good interaction here

[subtle wolf]

04/08: Imp x Evil Twin

[wary solstice]

You've had the last three

I think it's time to let someone else have a chance

[frigid flower]

Next time this one is peak

[umbral rune]

The Demon wants to live because final 3 with an evil twin is an alt win con for evil. However turning off the Evil Twin being a Minion to a Town Crier could be useful. It has the same feel of making a saint claim the imp i think it is great

[subtle wolf]

Anyone is free to lmk they want to post one and I’ll happily abstain. Did you want tomorrow?

[wary solstice]

Not necessarily that I wanted tomorrow, but claiming each day is monopolizing the space especially when you didn't even at least wait 24 hours since your prior post. You posted this at 10:00pm (EST) and your prior submission was 11:33pm (EST) the prior day.

[subtle wolf]

I won’t apologize for anything because I’m not monopolizing the space or doing anything else wrong

[wooden knoll]

I do have a thing I can provide if we're not going for this one

04/08 (other): Amnesiac x Wizard

Also has our Amnesiac icon here been the official one?

[rose oriole]

Save that for 2026-04-09 maybe

[unborn trellis]

More real than fake twin to stop “leave twins after demon” play

If town has a twin pair in f4 they must account for imp now so they can’t just shoot into the other 2 players

Pithag/barber on snv is much more signalled than this

[subtle wolf]

Axolator mentioned this interaction when we discussed Imp/Goblin a few weeks ago and I thought it was fascinating. I'm unsure whether it's too difficult for the good team or is a fantastic pair. As long as it's reasonable that an Imp is in play, town can't blindly execute outside the twin pair at F4 and solve twins in F3. Maybe some Townsfolk would help differentiate Imp from other demons and lead town to approach late-game executions much differently, depending on info. Or maybe town is always forced to guess into the twin pair in F5 or earlier. The natural counterbalance is that executing the wrong twin won't always lose because the ET might be the Imp.

[still sedge]

It stops the bullshit 50/50 Strat

[tawny haven]

I'm not speaking in modvoice here, but on a personal level I have felt frustrated when I wake up and see you've already posted something before I've had the chance to think about whether or not I wanted to post an interaction.

[wooden knoll]

Will do

[viscid hatch]

this is a fun one to talk about so can someone ping me tomorrow

(in general ping me for any Atheist/Harpy/Engineer discussions as I have a big deal to yap about with those characters)

[short crystal]

im curious what the difference is between imp/evil twin and imp/goblin

i personally find imp/evil twin a lot more fun at first glance

and probably needs less support

[unborn trellis]

bc if 2 evils claim evil twin good doesn't lose by executing 1 of them

[grand token]

good thing to script when you want imp/goblin dynamic without it being overwhelming for good team to deal with. unfortunately ET loses a lot of the social aspect of goblin that can be fun, but its much more fair for good

[wooden knoll]

04/09: Amnesiac x Wizard

[obsidian trout]

Peak cinema, no notes

[subtle wolf]

Here we have two-thirds of the open game trifecta. When multiple of these are on script, unscripted phenomena can't be traced to a single character. With a Wizard in play, evils can bluff as Amne with a public and chaotic ability. The real Amne can have a public ability that doesn't confirm them as town suspects Wizard; part of the ability can even be the Storyteller announcing that a Wizard wish was made, and both characters have reason to visit the Storyteller during the day.

Amnesiac and Wizard have huge potential as characters but can also singlehandedly ruin the game, entirely dependent on the Storyteller. This pair could lead to highly creative and memorable interactions but I would not trust many Storytellers to handle them properly, especially on the same script.

[tawny haven]

@viscid hatch amne wizard

[forest spindle]

I think this is entirely storyteller and player dependent. A great ST can probably pull it off. Some players like the giant storyteller agency and the chaos that comes with it, others dislike not having as much grounds to stand on.

[viscid hatch]

yippee

amnesiac wizard is good for an environment where you're looking for Amnesiacs with stronger open powers. Unlike Boffin Amnesiac, the Wizard chooses their ability and the Amnesiac must work it out. Clocktower likes having characters that mirror, contrast, or rhyme to each other, and Amnesiac Wizard is a case of that.

One element that makes it good is that an Amnesiac ability will normally be benefitting town in some way, so town can differentiate between Amnesiac and Wizard in that way, but simultaneously they can't 100% prove a Wizard hasn't just used their ability to bluff Amnesiac at the cost of helping town, or that the cost of the real wish is being claimed to be an Amnesiac ability.

Basically, it allows for louder and more powerful Amnesiac abilities that you normally could not design without making a bag good sided, whilst also adding a social element to deciphering the wizard wish and it's purpose: in order to glean if it comes from an Amnesiac or a Wizard! Choosing what to wish itself becomes a more interesting consideration: do you choose to make something a bit less destructive in order to blend in as an Amnesiac, it do you fully lean into the power and not care about the bluff?

[short crystal]

i will say of Amnesiac Wizard Atheist, Amne/Wizard seems like undisputably the healthiest pair of the 3, which I appreciate

[viscid hatch]

amnesiac atheist is fine just run puzzle atheist and throw your ST into the sun if they use amne to justify shenannigans atheist

more players should use the "throw them into the sun" form of feedback

[boreal nest]

Just give real abilities to amnesiacs in atheist

[viscid hatch]

yes

so run Puzzle Atheist and throw your ST into the sun if they use amne to justify shenannigans atheist

[frigid flower]

I am gonna try to slip in more puzzle atheist games

[viscid hatch]

you should just do them and reset the expectations of Atheist in your playgroup (players will be way more down to play Atheist if it feels like a real game)

[subtle wolf]

Ngl, although I agree with everything here, I would be wary joining any game where the ST chose some Amne/Wizard script and was eager to try some idea. There are already so many STs itching to make a dozen people play out their half-baked scripts and crazy Amne abilities are an amplified version of that. I don’t feel comfortable joining Amne games unless I know the ST and highly trust their judgement.

On top of that, Wizard is an inherently advanced character, not only for the ST (I also wouldn’t trust most people to run this), but in the way it dominates other game dynamics. You can’t have a subversive character unless the thing you’re subverting is legitimate on its own, which is to say that a script has to work, and its strategic space has to be understood by players, before Wizard makes it work differently. Yet Wizard seems to be thrown on so many scripts due to its individual appeal, or because it’s general and vague enough to pass a smell test for bad character interactions, not unlike the Amne.

So in theory I’m fascinated by Amne/Wizard, but I’m highly skeptical it works in practice outside some advanced groups playing a fantastic script, a script I’ve never seen.

Are there specific Amne/Wizard ideas to try disguising as the other character? I’m struggling to come up with something cool that makes a genuine puzzle for town

[umbral rune]

both depend on the ST and so does the interaction between them. as long as the ST does not give wizard clue esc things for amnesiac abilities it should be fine

[frigid flower]

Thanks, im gonna try to run some more harder scripts with atheist like Utter Disbelief

[neon storm]

Gave +1 Thanks to @viscid hatch (current: #941 - 42)

[frigid flower]

Because my first try with Stars Edge literally solved Atheist day 1 and i dont know how they do it 😭

[viscid hatch]

if you cant trust an ST to run Wizard then the interaction is bad by default bc Wizard is included in the interaction

[viscid hatch]

they probably just meta'd it'd be an Atheist game

and confirmation biased their way into it

[frigid flower]

A very social trusted player got the atheist token too

And no one wanted to vote no one

[viscid hatch]

yeah unfortunately you needed a Lib Drunk ping on them

socially strong players as the Atheist are goods strongest soldiers

[frigid flower]

They were in a Noble Ping and Savant info telling they were Hermit

[viscid hatch]

ehhh Savant info prob too weak of an indication sadly, especially on 1st game of Atheist

players will love to meta you put the flashy token in the bag

[subtle wolf]

This is true. I guess my point (that I failed to articulate) is that Amne makes Wizard even more appealing to the wrong crowd, and Amne/Wizard shenanigans are probably exponentially difficult on the ST and dependent on their judgement

[frigid flower]

Ok

[viscid hatch]

yeah thats a fair point

obviously its a thing to be wary about but I think I'd usually trust an ST who can run Wizard well to do the interaction justice, I don't personally have a layer of experience above that they need to reach (but tbc I've not yet been burnt by this occuring so maybe when it does I'll raise my standards)

[grand token]

i feel they ontologically need eachother on script to not be respectively solvable. another yaoi pair...? dont like it with atheist though generally (wizard atheist especially)

[still sedge]

consider making widow ping cost wishes

[rose oriole]

2026-04-10: Knaves x Artist

[obsidian trout]

I know one way to figure out which st is the lying one

[fringe mirage]

switches who lies

(tho it does tell you anyone who got info before the art(

[obsidian trout]

Basically yeah

[subtle wolf]

How

[obsidian trout]

You ask if you are the artist

[subtle wolf]

How far into the game would you do that

Seeing as how that’s already a moderately weak strat against the Vortox, it should be even weaker against a Loric that can change right after or before you asked

[obsidian trout]

I mean I never said it was a good way

[chilly cedar]

a small thing is that often evil doesn't know which way the knaves swing either

while in vortox evil knows all townsfolk info is false

so the artist confirming which ST is truth-telling and which is lying can expose evils

[forest spindle]

A cool instance where many Boffin TF info abilities can be really useful

[pseudo eagle]

pretty bad interaction imo, really goes against the spirit of the loric

the artist can just ask if it's raining or something and instantly know who's telling the truth

yeah the storytellers can switch but town now knows what info was true and false

and knaves scripts tend to have super powerful townsfolk on them to compensate so it can kinda just solve the game

[wooden knoll]

Hey ST, is it raining in my country?

The STs with no way of knowing where I live, let alone the current state of weather there: 🗿

https://tenor.com/view/konya-gif-27452116

[subtle wolf]

Is is not true

The STs may have switched already

[pseudo eagle]

the artist should always ask on the first day, there is no other question you could possibly ask to get more information than knowing which storyteller is lying

[subtle wolf]

On some scripts that would be true. On other scripts, information from other characters would help solve Knaves, or town would build worlds without knowing which ST is lying, just as we do with Vortox vs non-Vortox games. I would be tempted to use my artist question in a more creative and contextual way than that.

[rose oriole]

They can only switch at dusk

[wraith parcel]

I think the interaction is fine: Artist's binary information works well with knaves, and solving knaves as an opg is fine, if boring and likely suboptimal

[pseudo eagle]

there's a lot of confounding information on snv that makes you question if it's even a vortox game to begin with, that's the reason people tend not to ask a vortox proof question on whether it's a vortox game or not

but with knaves you know it's in play from the start and since they can only switch at dusk you know you can ask day 1 and know which is which before the switch

famously the knaves were solved using a binary question, not sure you guys have seen labyrinth

[wraith parcel]

Ig you can technically ask knaves-proof questions, but that seems easily solved by saying "don't do that", similar to vortox proof questions

[pseudo eagle]

the reason people put spirit of ivory on scripts with mez & pit-hag is because players can't help themselves from doing the unfun thing

all I'm saying is it's not worth the chance, just use the fisherman

sorta similar space and doesn't give them the opportunity to ruin the game

[wraith parcel]

I think that's not much of a problem, it's arguably weaker than checking vortox, and checking vortox is a weak use of an artist question anyway

[pseudo eagle]

it's a weak use of vortox because it might not be a vortox game

but you know it's a knaves game

unless you're playing a knaves script with not a lot of info roles knowing who's telling the truth is the best question you can ask

[subtle wolf]

Knaves being in play vs vortox not always being in play is not analogous. In both cases, you don’t know whether certain information is forced false or true.

[fervent basalt]

also i don't think another player making boring use of their artist question ruins a game in the same way mez cycling does

particularly with the knaves' switching mechanic

[rose oriole]

Ok so if you’re an Artist in a Knaves game are you

1. Asking a normal question,
2. Asking a question but knaves proofing it, or
3. Asking a question specifically to solve Knaves and nothing else?
   If it depends, what does it depend on?

[unborn trellis]

I mean the interaction is fine

If you ask to solve which ST you don’t have any other info

“You start knowing yes” doesn’t seem that bad to me

It’s still binary

There shouldn’t be a case where asking it full solves

Bc that just means evil has to be pushing on the wrong knaves flip + [artist player] is good to survive

And in which case replacing artist with any other info tf just likely can disprove it anyway

Eliminating all true worlds/false worlds isn’t rlly different from eliminating half of the worlds from both cases

[grand token]

its a cool combo, artist is still super strong but wasting on a hard check is a poor use of your ability unless in the correct circumstances, and otherwise you have to engage with knaves

[fringe mirage]

4/11: Virgin x Witch

[grand token]

it doesnt work at all if you storytell raw

is there something i am missing?

only thing i suppose is it can pierce fool+virgin science lol

but exec death is completely mechanically distinguishable from witch deaths

[fringe mirage]

It was a small interaction but me wondering

1. Can you get someone killed for a fake Virgin claim, even if it doesnt provide Virgin conformation?
   2)Can you bully the Virgin into not nominating?

tho 2 probably doesnt mean much since someone in town jhust does what the Virgin asks

[grand token]

1. im not sure i understand at all, you cant convincingly "Fake" anything
2. why would the virgin nominate? thats not generally the goal. you could bait a counternom? and why would this interaction make unique dynamics? cause theyre scared of the witch? that is the same as every other role in the game that doesnt want to die

[fringe mirage]

To be more clear, if you curse a playerr, you can theoretically spread rumors of a Virgin claim and get them to nominate, dying

Tho doing that is risky ofc

[grand token]

virgin claim urself or ur demon for 1 kill and immediately out urself?

i uhh dont buy it

[fringe mirage]

Thats why ideally you hope a good player claims it for some reason

but you probably dont get that

[grand token]

and another player might just do it instead and ruin the whole play even further

[grand token]

why would a good player bluff the virgin 😭

[fringe mirage]

It happens sometimes

tho not in any way the Witch can easily react to

[real heron]

I think this likes boomdandy and I think with that, it can work quite well

But otherwise it’s kind of a meh interaction

[wooden knoll]

I think I kind of get what you mean, but I don't think I've ever seen nom craziness just because of virgin hunting

[subtle wolf]

The Witch choice is a bit more interesting with a confirmed Virgin. You either target the confirmed player or choose someone the confirmed player will ask to nominate on their behalf. If the meta becomes “Never nominate as confirmed Virgin”, the Witch has a higher kill rate by always targeting someone else

[grand token]

how do you respond to a virgin claim via witch when they almost always use d1 or at the very least virgins would nearly never claim on days before using their ability due to its incredibly powerful nature

leviathan script?

with no other aggressive minions?

or are you talking about a spent virgin?

i dont think the spent virgin is particularly terrified of dying to curse, though i suppose a mechanically confirmed good dying is always pretty bad

its script dependent regardless, but i do think a spent virgin will generally be completely willing to die to witch curse anyways if need be

[edgy socket]

i dont think the spent virgin is particularly terrified of dying to curse, though i suppose a mechanically confirmed good dying is always pretty badThe dangerous thing about Witch isn't its ability to kill info roles, it's its ability to kill trusted roles that might be difficult for the demon to kill, or to let evil kill both info and trust without needing to compromise

Killing the spent virgin is massively worse for town than killing the sus flowergirl (if you're a sus info role you should nominate as heavily as possible in the hopes the witch did something dumb)

[kind berry]

12/04 General x Heretic

[green fiber]

awesome cool great amazing interaction

[fervent basalt]

i like this one

[grand token]

you should really talk to this guy 😬

[still sedge]

I enjoy

This interaction

[subtle wolf]

Should the General share their info publicly before final day? Doesn’t it help the evil team more than good if both sides are trying to discern whether a Heretic is in play?

Also, doesn’t the presence of a Heretic make ST judgements about who is winning extremely subjective? How is an ST supposed to accurately assess how much each team believes in a Heretic game, or how much the demon is considering offing themself, etc.? And wouldn’t those difficulties make General less useful and more frustrating due to directly being tied to game outcome?

I’m not convinced these interact in a strongly positive way, even though it sounds nice.

[still sedge]

It’s “how likely is the demon to die”

if that’s not likely due to the evil team, it was a bad combo anyway.

(SW)

[forest spindle]

Already shared my opinion earlier on this. I think this might be a core interaction on a coming expansion script together with Legion. General is like a mathematician for win conditions

[wooden knoll]

So

Does the general get flipped info?

Cuz technically

When good's winning, Heresy makes that evil winning

So there the General will give evil, surely?

Cuz the poisoner hitting the Heretic and it swings 180 degrees

Evil crazy winning -> Good crazy winning

[forest spindle]

I would say in general yes, but its also based on whos aware of it being in play and how they act on it etc.

[fervent basalt]

it's up to the st i think

personally i find the best ruling to be that heretic is considered (but not just flipping the info)

[fervent basalt]

i think the incentive to be cagey is part of what makes this interesting

[tawny haven]

Stellar interaction, to the point where I strongly consider putting General on every script I make with a Heretic. The General's one of the few characters that can get an idea of whether or not a Heretic is in play, and change what info they share with town.

The General's info should take into account what both team's thoughts on the Heretic question are and how much control they have over the gamestate — it makes the General harder to run, but the Heretic is an expert character. That's to be expected.

e.g. if town is strongly considering executing the Saint and a Heretic is in play, then the General should be receiving that good is winning. If the Al-Had knows there's a Heretic in play, but not who or where the Innkeeper protecting them each night is, then it's tricky, and you could realistically show that neither team is winning, depending on other factors (like if the Innkeeper knows not to move off the Al-Had player or to out themselves). If evil knows it's not a Heretic game, and plans on bluffing it, then the General's info can strongly indicate whether or not that Heretic claim is legitimate.

[viscid hatch]

peak.

[chilly cedar]

It's a good interaction.

I think it does make General quite a bit more difficult to ST

[wooden knoll]

Idk I always thought General's a bit mid

[umbral rune]

04/13: Pukka x Monk

[umbral rune]

I put these 2 in the same alt TB script often and I get told "I hate being the Monk with Pukka on script". With no Monk claim Pukkas do not enjoy being "forced" to claim Monk or soft confirm Pukka. But I enjoy knowing Monk which can be strong is nerfed and makes it so that players cannot be Pukka poisoned which is important and useful, idk I sense this is very similar to my Fang Gu SW take

[forest spindle]

I know people very much dislike this interaction since the monk can prevent pukka from both killing and poisoning. If the monk protects from poisoning they wont die the next night either.

I havnt seen the interaction in practice though, so I dont know how bad this is

Actually I have seen it on stream once, where the pukka got completely shut down from killing for almost the entire game

[real heron]

I’ve seen several games where the evil team wants to frame the Monk and it is much much harder with Pukka, to the point where framing a monk is near impossible (they are likely to save at least one, potentially more)

Generally, the interaction can strip the evil team of agency much more than a monk can usually, which I think is problematic because Pukka somewhat gives up their agency by having a delayed death

[tawny haven]

The Monk gets two chances to save a Pukka target, which is ludicrously powerful. I don't put them on the same scripts.

[umbral rune]

what do you mean "2 chances"? they still choose the same number of times? I do agree that Monk is powerful but Pukka gives it the nerf it needs

[tawny haven]

They can choose the Pukka target the night the Pukka chooses them (so the poison never goes through) and the night after the Pukka chooses them (so they don't die)

The Monk has double the chance to stop a Pukka kill compared to any other Demon

[winter bobcat]

It’s not like innkeeper who only protects against dying

Safe applies to both halves of the pukka ability

[umbral rune]

okay, i would just say this is more of a Pukka problem than a Pukka + Monk problem where Pukka in and of itself kills incredibly slowly. I have the same thoughts about Summoner Pukka, fine just truly slow

[tawny haven]

Summoner/Pukka has exactly the same kill rate as Summoner with every other Demon though?

It still kills once per night - the problem is that the Monk can stop it twice instead of just once

The Innkeeper, for instance, doesn't have this problem because it doesn't cleanse the poison like the Monk. It just stops the target from dying

[grand token]

its far too powerful for the monk that effectively becomes an innkeeper that also additionally prevents misinfo instead of creating it. shouldnt really be scripted together

[grand token]

also doesnt prevent alternate forms of death which can often be an upside on scripts with death modification

[umbral rune]

this seems like a sound theory but monk runs fine on my "alt TB with pukka" script

[grand token]

well youve got gf/assassin/poisoner/spy thats about all you could possibly throw at a monk

[rose oriole]

04/14: Yaggababble x Slayer

[obsidian trout]

Slap on a scarlet woman and its the funniest shit I've ever seen

[short crystal]

and a hermit tinker drunk 🥰

[grand token]

quit ur blabbin son

[green fiber]

bluffable successful slayer shot 😍😍😍

[forest spindle]

Excellent interaction, I have it on one of my scripts

[real heron]

I’ve run a game where the slayer shot a minion in f5 before noms opened and then evil ended up winning

Felt like some pretty nice misinformation, but it needs to be timed well in the right situation to mean anything

(also yay bluff space, but same idea applies)

[short crystal]

this interaction reminds me of the script Wherein Everyone is a Witch Cursed Recluse, which leans all the way into confounded daytime death

[chilly cedar]

What a fun duo

[subtle wolf]

A cute interaction. I’m skeptical how often this would work on multi-demon scripts where Yaggababble depends on town worldbuilding other demons. A death caused by slayer where the game continues means those two players are exactly slayer and demon, and that Scarlet Woman or Evil Twin is in play; the only exception would be that Yaggababble is the demon type.

As the Yaggababble, I think I’m seriously disadvantaged by a fake slayer death because that just isn’t enough worldbuilding space outside Yaggababble, and now town is focused on the right worlds and perhaps more closely tracking what people say, which points at me directly because my recent public use of the Yagga-phrase caused the death. Some of these disadvantages vanish on scripts with only Yagga.

This is a great example of an interaction that receives praise for being flashy and cool while perhaps not being as strategically rich as other, less catchy interactions. After playing a script where a fake slayer death happens once or twice, the novelty wears off, players know the obvious worldbuilding possibilities, and neither evil nor good players can really strategize or bluff differently in light of it. Though again, this might be different on a solo-Yagga script.

[fervent basalt]

it's funny with legion i think

[grand token]

i mean its a very specific interaction and bluff that youll rarely see executed well, but it can work. for example i rly like a scarlet woman bluffing slayer to kill their sus demon later in the game (bonus points for previous actual failed slayer shot)

[unborn trellis]

It’s good mainly bc it’s reasonable misinfo from yagga

As opposed to unreasonable yagga misinfo

Such as deathmod

[weak ingot]

Slayer misinfo is fine

[grand token]

golem 😭

[unborn trellis]

Hermit golem is cool

The non hermit golem just never goes into bag I guess

[quartz girder]

hermit golem drunk + yag = script that actively encourages players to cheat? unless you house rule it ig

ig now that i think about it thats kinda true even outside of yag

[fervent basalt]

on etreides' script it has a bootlegger rule that the hermit can nominate multiple times but only the first kills immediately

[boreal nest]

its from this script i cooked up based on one i saw somewhere

[short crystal]

04/15: Lleech x Lunatic

i'm curious what ppl think about this because ppl have discussed Lleech x King but this is the other good character that Lleech knows at the start, but this character doesn't get info!

[fervent basalt]

lunatic sorta gets info with its picks being followed or not

if you host the lunatic you can't follow their picks (assuming they see a picking demon)

[wraith parcel]

Fine interaction imo - Lunatic thinking they are Lleech is about the same as any other demon, Lunatic doesn't feel like the best host but it being avoidable makes that negligible

[fervent basalt]

i once thought about a script with hermit-lunatic-tinker + lleech + scarlet woman but i have no idea how i would build the rest of that lol

[grand token]

lunatic is a pretty bad host for lleech. its completely avoidable, but at least you can rule yourself out as a potential host if you solve that you are the lunatic later into the game and the demon still was following your kills

[rose oriole]

Throw godfather on the script and suddenly the Lunatic is a pretty fine host…

[grand token]

probably still ass, because its gonna be pretty impossible to manipulate the lunatic long term, which in of itself is a clue to the luna its hosted in the lategame...

[real heron]

Bootleg can mean good just force loses without knowing why and I think there isn’t really a great way to fix it

[umbral rune]

Did somebody say Drinker?
#beginner-friendly-game-chat message

[umbral rune]

Risky interaction if the Lunatic Lleech chooses a Minion or Demon they will want to keep you alive which is good but as soon as their host dies the jig is up

[subtle wolf]

I don’t see interaction that doesn’t boil down to characteristics of one character or the other

[tawny haven]

With a Mathematician on script, the Lunatic is actually a solvable host (pings every night except the first, since those choices aren't getting communicated to the Demon) which is neat

[real heron]

I have an interaction for tomorrow if possible?

[real heron]

It is 12am for me now, it seems like the convo has died for the most part

But I can wait for another while if we’re wanting to fit to GMT more consistently

[subtle wolf]

Go for it

[real heron]

4/16: Mayor x Riot

Jinx: The Mayor may choose to stop the riot. If they do so when only 1 Riot is alive, good wins. Otherwise, evil wins

[short crystal]

I’ve never played with this jinx but I adore the idea of it

[fringe mirage]

Seems rough

You don’t get the Mayors protection or the deliberation time to decide if you actually think you can Mayor win

Seems like most Mayors either get killed in the Riot or call it wrong

[grand token]

never played it before, and my only riot script is a multidemon currently, so it wouldnt be great there. it seems like a good jinx, but would rarely come in play since the mayor would have to be left alive.

[fringe mirage]

(tbc, i think the jinx is prob the best you can do: it’s just Mayor Riot suffers)

[grand token]

i also find it a bit odd how it can choose to stop the riot whenever, not just when there's 3 remaining. an evil mayor would be horrifically unscriptable

[fringe mirage]

Don’t script evil turning, Mayor, Riot I guess

[short crystal]

considering that it's an alt good wincon i don't think this is a bad thing

alt wincons should be hard to achieve

[unborn trellis]

Bc at 3 there’s not a point not stopping?

If there’s 0 riots good has won, 2 riots evil has won

At 3 there always is only 1 riot or it’s gg anyway

[fringe mirage]

It’s not really that: and fwiw, you still do get th Mayor protection a little as long as good players don’t shoot the Mayor

I just think it clashes because Mayor would ideally like time to evaluate if the win is worth doing

[grand token]

oh right

uhh

[short crystal]

i don't get what you mean by mayor protection

riot doesn't kill at night

[fringe mirage]

riot specifically makes final day chaos from a full grim to nothing, so Mayor loses the ability to properly persuade the town

[unborn trellis]

Just think quick

Mayor think!

[grand token]

mayor having a widow style ping would really be a lot nicer as a character in general

[fringe mirage]

Well I’m saying that it’s harder to get the Mayor to f3 in Riot unless town deliberately doesn’t kill then

[short crystal]

I agree that Mayor feels like a completely different character in Riot games but once again i dont think that makes the interaciton bad

[fringe mirage]

[short crystal]

but the Mayor getting to f3 doesn't matter, bc the jinx transforms the Mayor's ability to something not related to that?

[fringe mirage]

I guess the funny thing is that Mayor stops being a deliberative character: they just have to go for vibes

[unborn trellis]

Not rlly

Surely info matter is riot games still

[fringe mirage]

I know, but I’m using f3 because that’s the safest time to stop

You can stop before but it’s riskier

[unborn trellis]

But that isn’t

It’s the safest time to stop bc in other worlds you die

[short crystal]

I think this is possible, it becomes more vibey but I can't rly comment on if it's full vibey until I've played with it which I sadly haven't

[fringe mirage]

F4 then

Yeah

Idk, I just think Mayor likes the deliberation and ability to track. But I’m biased because that’s how I play and why I play longtext

It’s not a bad jinx like I said

[unborn trellis]

Riot in longtext is a whole other story

I don’t even think it works

[short crystal]

yeah Riot Mayor is definitely a much more assertive one compared to normal Mayor which is sort of by default more defensive

[fringe mirage]

I guess my final words are that I can’t judge for sure

I suspect Mayor is at least a little weaker from having to trigger in a “who shoots first” style, but it’s genuinely the best way imaginable to do Mayor Riot at all and I think it could work on the right script

[frigid flower]

Bad as hell

Mix this with boffin and guess what

Ahhh yeah it cant happen 🤤

Apprendice boffin

[still sedge]

Mayor living that long is pretty impressive

[subtle wolf]

Requires playing a Riot game

[rose oriole]

Hey Riot is okay

[tawny haven]

copypasting my bit from the jinx tier list for reference:

Okay, this jinx is awesome in terms of theme, but in terms of execution, I personally don’t like it all too much — mainly because the Mayor will often just die in the riot and not be able to safely use its ability. The only time a Mayor will get to use it is if they’re getting framed by evil — in which case a good player will likely kill the Mayor before they get to use their ability. If an evil player is bluffing Mayor, they can’t bluff using the jinx ability, so they just have to die about it.

To some extent, there will never be a perfect jinx between these two characters just because of how different they are, but this interaction is just a little sad.

6 months later, I don't think my opinions have changed too much? I haven't played much with these two characters, which doesn't help any. The thematics are super cool and I can imagine a Mayor/Riot jinx actually ending the game could be really really fun, but it's just rough around the edges, as Riot jinxes tend to be.

[subtle wolf]

Since that one has died down too is it cool if I post another for today

[wary solstice]

I think so, yeah

[subtle wolf]

04/16: Harlot x Storm Catcher

[subtle wolf]

Is it a problem for the Harlot to sleep with the stormcaught character who can't die? Is the confirmation too strong?

[subtle wolf]

Not everybody at once!

This is a fringe interaction to be sure. I think the Harlot checking the player claiming to be stormcaught can be quite strong if those players are socially readable. The stormcaught player has no reason to deny being checked since they can’t die, so evils bluffing who deny it will be accused by the Harlot. I think the ST should never kill the Harlot to these stormcaught lovers because it confirms the stormcaught player, unless you have many other reasons for extra night deaths.

I would be wary assigning a traveler Harlot when someone is claiming the stormcaught role, unless the traveler is capable of the direct confrontation and lying that an evil Harlot would engage in. A player with strong bluffing skills is not trustworthy as the Harlot, either confirming or accusing the stormcaught claim. That is necessary for the interaction to work

[real heron]

I think harlot is kind of too-strong information for an environment where Storm Catcher feels comfy

Like, I generally prefer a low info space (or at least less actionable info like SnV) and Harlot does exactly not that so I think it doesn’t work great (yes Harlot is on SnV, but it’s some of the most actionable direct info on that script)

[subtle wolf]

Where does Storm Catcher feel the most comfy?

[frigid flower]

The less confirmed it is

Thats the deal its the odd bluff that either it is or it isnt

[subtle wolf]

What characters does the Harlot work best with?

[wary solstice]

Saint is one that it works with well, amusingly.

A Good Harlot is fine with both outcomes. Confirming the Saint and staying alive means they can give their voice to confirm the Saint and try protecting the Saint against accusations. If they both die instead, however... well that's the threat of the Saint gone and they still confirm them!

An Evil Harlot will likely wish to stay alive and claim that the Saint is an Evil role and even the Demon, trying to push for their execution.

The latter gives more reason for Evil to accept a visit from a Harlot if they're bluffing Saint, since an Evil Harlot will lie and back them up, while a Good Harlot freaking out could look like the above case.

[tawny haven]

I think Harlot gels well with scripts that can't confirm the Harlot's alignment easily. If a Harlot's confirmed good, it means their info is real, which is super busted. Like, S&V doesn't have anything that can directly check a Traveller's alignment outside, like, Oracle (which only works after the Harlot is dead and can be confounded by the two other people who die on a Harlot night) and Savant/Artist, which are inherently wildcards

So no Harlot on scripts with, like, an Empath or VI

To that end if you have a script where the Harlot can't be mechanically confirmed, the Storm Catcher problem largely vanishes. A Harlot who could be evil could just backing up an evil player's bluff, and if there's no mechanical info about the Harlot's alignment, it's kind of a non-issue

[subtle wolf]

Would you agree then that the Harlot feels like a substantial impact on the game while actually not changing much? And maybe that’s what we want, so the player can feel included but the game maintains a relative balance.

[subtle wolf]

04/17 Mayor x Goblin

S-tier interaction

[rose oriole]

Hmmm, the Demon and Goblin are both claiming Goblin in F3 and there’s no way to tell them apart?

“No one is executed no one dies congratulations to the good team!”

[subtle wolf]

Yep, that's part of it

[sudden drift]

Goblin scripts need Goblin solvers. Mayor is a Goblin solver. Is there anything else to it?

[rose oriole]

Mayor does incentivize some evils to not claim Goblin so that not all others are hard confirmed

[subtle wolf]

Yes, there is more to it

[short crystal]

I think also that the Mayor wants to claim Goblin?

[subtle wolf]

Overall, in BOTC as a whole, Mayor is the good character most incentivized to claim Goblin when nominated. Mayor can be killed at night if fully trusted by town, but the ST should otherwise bounce the kill, so Mayors usually survive to F3 unless executed. A Goblin claim counters the alternate way of dying, almost guaranteeing the Mayor makes it to F3. Also, it makes the Mayor less trustworthy and therefore less likely to die at night, if the ST is following protocol.

In general, good players should claim Goblin when they think their future information or ability will outweigh the inconvenience of being sussed and denying town's execution choice. The good character who most embodies that is Mayor. The Mayor's wincon is a last resort in case town isn't confident enough in a F3 execution.

All of that makes Mayor an even better bluff for evils than it usually is, especially the Goblin

[unborn trellis]

See the issue is you need to be both trusted and alive in f3

The reason some tfs can claim goblin is that it’s fine for them to not be trusted in order to live, bc they will become mechanically confirmed later

Mayor doesn’t quite fit into the category

If your ability requires you to be trusted to work, usually claiming goblin isn’t worth it
On the other hand, if your ability make yourself trusted then claiming goblin can be fine

[subtle wolf]

I think this is not quite right. Mayor doesn't need to be trusted in F3, they need to be trusted more than town is confident in choosing between the other two players for execution. If you have enough information to be almost certain someone is the Mayor, you likely have enough info to sort between the other two players. Also, a Mayor who is almost guaranteed to be trusted in F3 will die at night.

The Mayor's ability depends on town being less sure about information and executions, which the Mayor itself supports by not dying at night (easy evil claim) and by generating zero useful information for the good team

[unborn trellis]

Town having no info benefits the mayor claim, but not only mayor

Which means it hurts town as a whole, not benefits them

Like even as a mayor you won’t be liking town losing their info

Bc in the case where town has better info they win the informed f3 better than no info + having a mayor

[subtle wolf]

If this were always true, the Mayor would not be a Townsfolk

[unborn trellis]

They would bc town doesn’t always have info

But town not having info should be something that happens despite their best effort

Not bc the mayor player is willing to sabotage it

[subtle wolf]

I don't understand your point

[unborn trellis]

My point is town benefits more from having info about f3 than having mayor but no info about f3

[subtle wolf]

I don't think I've ever seen a game where town had a Mayor claim and no info about F3. That doesn't happen. This is all a matter of degree, and sometimes having the Mayor is better than if they were an info-gathering townsfolk

[unborn trellis]

The mayor win should only be something that happens bc town didn’t get enough info despite trying
Not something that the mayor should deliberately go for by disrupting town from having a more informed f3

and claiming goblin definitely falls into disrupting town from having a better informed f3

[subtle wolf]

How does the Mayor claiming Goblin hurt town from having a more informed F3?

I don't really know what it means to have an informed F3

If you mean a F3 with information about each living player, so town can make an informed decision, that is not disrupted by the Mayor claiming Goblin

[unborn trellis]

It hurts town from having a better informed f3 bc the better informed choice is not to trust mayor

My point is still that mayor claiming goblin is horrible bc they cannot sustain ever being distrusted or executed later
Some tfs can bc they can accept being exed in f5, or they know they will definitely become confirmed in f3

A good player claiming goblin should always be prepared of either getting executed later, or getting confirmed before final day

bc if you’re going into f3, untrusted and have claimed goblin it’s a horrendous position

Since that’s where you lose the goblin protection

And only have the suspicion left

[subtle wolf]

Like I said up here, it is simplistic and/or false to say "Mayor needs to be trusted, not sussed in F3"

[unborn trellis]

Well it’s neither
Bc literally every role needs that

[subtle wolf]

I don't know how else to communicate that being trusted is not black and white, and F3 decision is almost never a certainty. Your arguments assume these things are simplistic when they are not

[unborn trellis]

Like the worst thing one can have in f3 is being a likely demon candidate

[unborn trellis]

Being distrusted is something that always must be applied to goblin claims until confirmation overrides it

Theres not even tolerance space or whatever bc evil benefits much more from it than good

“Trust isn’t black and white” doesn’t ever qualify as an argument for “It’s fine to claim goblin and live to f3 despite being unable to get confirmed”

If you do it you’re just less trusted

[still sedge]

If the mayor claims goblin:

and lives to f3, and outs mayor, I wouldn’t believe it

But

[subtle wolf]

"Trust isn't black and white" was never my argument, it was a response to your counterargument. I previously gave other reasons for a Mayor to claim Goblin, ironically, including becoming less trusted to avoid dying at night. Another reason is for town to have the Mayor ability available in case they can't distinguish between evil's Goblin claims.

[still sedge]

If they just say “fuck it” and tie

Without town’s consent(assume no random bullshit droison) I can see the vision

[unborn trellis]

Argument 1 doesn’t work bc it’s better for you to die than being the only goblin claim to f3
2 doesn’t work bc if the mayor can be a good goblin claim, the evils can also be

If you’re claiming goblin and 2 other players are claiming goblin all in f3

I’m not sure why the mayor is “the good goblin claim” and the other 2 are evil goblin claims

You’re still on even battleground with the goblin claims which means it’s not an easy way out for town still

[subtle wolf]

Then other game information becomes involved

[still sedge]

Should the mayor claim saint?

This is basically the same question

[unborn trellis]

That’s like, every other game where mayor didn’t claim goblin

[subtle wolf]

Not the same. A Mayor should claim Mayor who claims Goblin on the block

[still sedge]

Mayors shouldn’t die at night unless there are exactly 0 worlds in which they are evil

That doesn’t mean trust is bad

Yes evil should have a hard time. They suck. Frame the mayor.

that’s your job

[unborn trellis]

Then why would town want to trust mayor in f3
You’ll never have town willing to mayor win more than willing to distinguish

[still sedge]

TB mayor distinctly sucks due to “if there’s 2 evils in f3 you could be fucked”

[unborn trellis]

Especially when the world of the mayor claim is evil is at large

[still sedge]

This is just claiming goblin

[unborn trellis]

Like there just won’t ever be a case mayor win is better than executing if you aren’t being at least more trusted than the other 2 ppl

[still sedge]

I can see it if you do a suspicious tie at the end

But otherwise…. Yeah no

[subtle wolf]

...huh? If this sentence were true, Mayor would be a useless character. This is completely wrong. The entire point of Mayor is being trusted more than town's ability to guess between the other two

[still sedge]

Goblin destroys that

[unborn trellis]

Yeah but what if you can be, the evil claiming mayor…

[still sedge]

Why would I trust the dude who claimed minion

[subtle wolf]

Then town doesn't trust the Mayor enough to go for it...? We're just retracing basic Mayor dynamics atp

[still sedge]

Because if you were that under fire for execution as a mayor

Claiming goblin just means “I am evil.”

[unborn trellis]

I wonder why town doesn’t trust mayor enough to go for it

Surely it wasn’t relevant to the goblin claim

[still sedge]

Not “I am a viable mayor candidate in f3 don’t kill me”

[subtle wolf]

This ignores the reality of town's info and social reads evolving from the time Mayor is nommed to F3

[still sedge]

Why hasn’t towns info confirmed the mayor

Hell the defense “get info on me first” is better than a goblin claim

[subtle wolf]

Because it's a good script? Because a confirmed Mayor should die at night? This is obvious

[still sedge]

A “confirmed” mayor means literally no way in which they’re evil

If theres like

1 good ping

Hell even 2

In 2 minion games

Or there’s misinfo ever

No I’m not killing the mayor

Be better at framing mayors

[subtle wolf]

A Mayor wins in F3 by having a moderate degree of trust, which is more appealing to town than the difficulty choosing between the other two living players. Mayors should not be "confirmed" and should not want to be "confirmed" because they will rightly die at night

[still sedge]

Having 2 good pings on them

[unborn trellis]

But you need that to override the goblin claim

[still sedge]

Is not going to cause them to die

And if droison and “being evil” exist

Yeah

The info doesn’t say jack

[unborn trellis]

It’s not “you’ll be more trusted in f3”
It’s “you’ll be more trusted in f3 despite the goblin claim”

[still sedge]

You can’t just blindly trust a goblin

[unborn trellis]

Also like “you’ll be more trusted in f3” might not even be true

[subtle wolf]

I think we are restating a lot of the same things and are not going to agree, but I appreciate the discussion

[still sedge]

tl:dr Goblin claims mean claiming evil, evil players aren’t viable mayor wins to town’s perspective. If you had good pings on you, why would you claim goblin

[unborn trellis]

I mean my point is still my point
If you can get confirmed in f3 go for the goblin claim
I’m just not quite sure where does the mayor ability come in clutch

[still sedge]

The mayor ties off a tf or smth

[unborn trellis]

Like I can agree mayor doesn’t benefit from being super trusted but they’re definitely hurt by being sussed

[still sedge]

Being a minion isn’t

That bad surely

[unborn trellis]

I mean if you’re “goblin or mayor”

[still sedge]

Nah even if you’re just goblin

[unborn trellis]

Ehh what was the execution for…?

[still sedge]

Like

You can just pop up and tie and get a sneaky mayor win

[unborn trellis]

Yeah but like why’d that happen

If that happens that means town has failed to deal with an actual evil claiming goblin in f3 which is a lot more worlds

You need town to suck hard to be a goblin claim, heavily untrusted, and yet be able to tie the f3

[subtle wolf]

Y’all are overestimating how sus a goblin claim is

[unborn trellis]

If suspicion of a goblin claim is ever lower than 100%, it hurts the good team

It’s true😭

[still sedge]

Why would I not want an evil ping from goblin claims

Why would I want that meta

“Oh no I don’t want to be exed” maybe I should have a defense

[sudden drift]

if you don't want that meta, then you can eagerly execute goblin claims

well, I guess that still won't get you what you want

I don't know anything you can do to enforce that meta

[still sedge]

Wanting to win as good

[kind berry]

There are instances where claiming goblin as good helps the good team, but mayor isn't one of them unless extremely specific situations

And if you are a sus mayor, you're not helping your team by trying to stay alive at all cost

[frigid flower]

(like Confirmed Steward having the mayor btw)

[kind berry]

Even without it, claiming goblin as good also makes it easier for the evil team to claim goblin and get away with it, with or without a goblin win

Last week i lost a game d1 because the first nom of the day claimed goblin, then the goblin did right after

[subtle wolf]

The reason you lost was that good voted to execute a goblin claim, which was in small part attributable to the good player who previously claimed Goblin.

[rose oriole]

As mayor I would rather be exed in f7 or even f5 if I knew people didn’t trust me enough to go for the mayor win

[subtle wolf]

As before, I find the gray area of these strats and dynamics to be constantly flattened. A good player claiming goblin is not “the reason” good loses to a goblin.

[kind berry]

I don't fully agree. I'm gonna say my point of view during the game: Player 1 can easily be the goblin, so let's not execute it. Player 2 claims goblin right after, since the first player claimed goblin, we have no extra reasons to think a goblin was in play (base 1 btw), while any evil would be much more likely to claim goblin here. I only voted on that 2nd player because the first player claimed goblin.
(Just in case it wasn't clear, i'm not blaming player 1 for the loss, i'm just saying that his goblin claim made it easier for the actual goblin to get away with it right after)

All i'm saying is that claiming goblin as good doesn't "just" make you sus, it also makes it easier for the goblin to get away with it

[subtle wolf]

Your reasoning was flawed, you took a risk that was only slightly more warranted because of Player 1, and you paid for it

So the blame is attributable to Player 1, all the goodies that risked it by voting, and to evil selling it well and capitalizing

[kind berry]

I'd disagree on that "slightly", imo most evils would've claimed goblin there

In a normal game, a goblin claim is a sufficient reason to assume there's an in-play goblin and that the nominated player has a high chance of being it. Once it's the 2nd nom and 2nd player to claim goblin, that assumption is reduced significatively

[meager lynx]

As a good character you die in one of two ways: town thinks you’re evil and executes you, or town thinks you’re good and the demon kills you. Claiming goblin is a special trick to dodge both, town can’t execute you without risking a losscon but you’re also suspicious enough to drop down the demon’s kill priority list. The deal is that you dramatically increase your survivability on multiple axes in exchange for any information you give out becoming less trustworthy. The cost of lost social trust is pretty severe in exchange for the okayish benefit most likely living longer. However, mayor already isn’t at significant risk of being nightkilled, and doesn’t get any new information from living longer. “I am the mayor” is just as true day 1 as in final 3, and while yes sometimes new information could come out from other players retroactively justifying your survival, if that doesn’t happen forcing town to keep you until final 3 just guarantees a 3rd demon candidate for them to consider. I think that most of the time it’s a strategy that’s harmful to the good team.

Using mayor as a “goblin solver” sounds cool and fun though.

[subtle wolf]

“In a normal game, a Goblin claim is a sufficient reason to assume there’s an in-play Goblin”

I disagree

[kind berry]

At least for the time of the nomination

[subtle wolf]

There’s no such thing as a reason to assume

[kind berry]

"There were 1 then 4 nightdeaths in a BMR game, that's a reason to assume it's a po game"

[quartz girder]

those are very different

goblin is a role that actively encourages claiming it when it is not in play

with no real extra effort unlike the nonsense required to bluff po

[kind berry]

When town figures out that goblin isn't in play, you are left outed evil

Unless you can give a good reason why you'd claim goblin as good

[quartz girder]

ig it depends on the script, a lot of goblin scripts ive seen have had relatively quiet minions

[kind berry]

Yeah it's rarely vizier psychopath cerenovus goblin, but it still doesn't mean that good has no way to guess the minion type

[meager lynx]

I think that if your posterior probability that a goblin is in play is not higher than your prior probability than a goblin is in play upon encountering the evidence that a player has claimed goblin your goblin players are way more reserved than the ones I've seen.

[unborn trellis]

I mean goblin claim shouldn’t be rlly dependent on if a goblin is in play

Goblin piling should

Like if you’re getting the whole evil team to claim goblin you better actually has one

But 1 goblin claim doesn’t need that

[meager lynx]

My logic requires the assumption "goblin players claim goblin at a higher rate than other characters" which isn't guaranteed to be true but matches with my observations.

[unborn trellis]

It shouldn’t be true

[quartz girder]

this is true, but most evil players are not goblin so something something false positive fallacy thing math

[wary solstice]

"and to evil selling it well and capitalizing"
Lepakon specifically stated " claiming goblin as good doesn't "just" make you sus, it also makes it easier for the goblin to get away with it", so you can't claim simultanously that their argument is flawed and yet have you agree with it at the same time. Saying Evil capitalized on a situation requires that an opportunity was created to be capitalized upon, which is exactly what Lepakon is arguing.

[subtle wolf]

This makes no sense. If you have reasons to believe it’s a Po game, you proceed as if it’s probably a Po game. There are no assumptions involved. Assuming is by definition contradictory to reasoning

[still sedge]

or you could just assume a random demon is in play

do a proof by contradiction/cases

move on

[wary solstice]

No it isn't? Proof by Cases & Proof by Contradiction both use assumptions within reasoning.

[still sedge]

do it again until you delete evil team combos

[wary solstice]

Bayesian styles of inference also use updated assumptions within reasoning

[quartz girder]

i mean i think this is all missing the point that there is a big difference between "mechanical event like people dying" and "words that every player can legally speak and most evil players should at least consider speaking"

bluffing goblin and bluffing po are very different things

[kind berry]

Because someone else said the word Bayesian before me, the TLDR of my argument is that after a first player claimed goblin, the probability for the next player to claim goblin if evil is higher than before, while the probability for a good player to claim goblin and the probability for a goblin player to claim goblin both only increased marginally. Which makes it more likely for the 2nd player to be a non-goblin evil, and someone worth executing

[kind berry]

I agree, that example was just to ask Nick what he meant by "There’s no such thing as a reason to assume"

[subtle wolf]

Bro it’s obvious what I mean in the context of assuming Goblin, not within cases or a proof

Of all people I am shocked you’re disagreeing with me

[meager lynx]

if people aren't understanding you then it isn't obvious what you mean

[meager lynx]

I would hope that you included "there are X evil players in the game" into your prior probability. I guess technically it could be the case that seeing a goblin claim is better evidence for there being an extra evil in play than there being a goblin in play? That's a somewhat interesting idea I guess.

[wary solstice]

"Assuming is by definition contradictory to reasoning"
You made this explicit and clear claim. I denied it.

And I have no idea why you're shocked at my disagreement. My field of study is mathematics.

[subtle wolf]

🤦‍♂️

[subtle wolf]

This is so technical and unnatural that I don’t even understand what you’re saying

Oh nvm I got it sorry that was rude

[kind berry]

"And capitalizing", capitalizing to what?

[subtle wolf]

Yea I agree that good players created a situation that evils could capitalize. That’s a downside to goodies claiming goblin

What’s the point

[wary solstice]

... That is the point. "claiming goblin as good doesn't "just" make you sus, it also makes it easier for the goblin to get away with it"

[subtle wolf]

Yea that’s obvious

[meager lynx]

and therefore harms the good team's chances of winning the game

[subtle wolf]

In one way it harms good’s chances, yes

[wary solstice]

You explicitly disagreed with an obvious fact then.

As before, I find the gray area of these strats and dynamics to be constantly flattened. A good player claiming goblin is not “the reason” good loses to a goblin.

[subtle wolf]

This is beyond ironic

Nothing I can add to this conversation could clarify it at this point

You just took my quotation about things being flattened and flattened it to misunderstand me

[wary solstice]

If no one can apparently understand you, nor have you found any benefit to clarification, and everyone misunderstands you, or your obvious inferences are seen as easily challengable by others; is it not more likely that your reasoning is either flawed or poorly presented rather than everyone simply refusing to engage. Especially when you were, apparently, quite surprised that I disagreed with you.

[subtle wolf]

The few people who misunderstand are the people who disagree and chose to type a response in this thread. "no one can apparently understand you" lmao

If you don't understand how one action can contribute to a loss, but not be fully responsible for a loss, then you will think I contradicted myself. I very obviously didn't

In fact I said over and over that the goodie who claimed Goblin contributed to their own loss

[wary solstice]

Lepakon: Even without it, claiming goblin as good also makes it easier for the evil team to claim goblin and get away with it, with or without a goblin win
You: The reason you lost was that good voted to execute a goblin claim, which was in small part attributable to the good player who previously claimed Goblin.
Lepakon: I only voted on that 2nd player because the first player claimed goblin.
You: Your reasoning was flawed, you took a risk that was only slightly more warranted because of Player 1, and you paid for it

You are fighting a phantom of your imagination.

[subtle wolf]

Voting on a Goblin claim purely because the previous nom claimed Goblin is obviously poor reasoning

[frigid flower]

A gamble too far, i think we had a similar conversation about good team executing on 4 in a Legion Game

[wary solstice]

From you: "you took a risk that was only slightly more warranted because of Player 1"

If you've already agreed that the probability of Player 2 being a Goblin is lowed by Good Player 1 claiming Goblin, you must also agree there exists a situation in which that increase justifies the choice (if you didn't, then no increase could ever be sufficient or you deny the original additional warranting in the first place)

You've also complained that others are claiming an absolutist position when your entire claim is absolutist, when others have explicitly argued regarding the consequences of Good players claiming Goblin. You're fighting a phantom of your own imagination.

[subtle wolf]

Yes, "there exists a situation" in which that increase justifies the choice. This is also different from only voting on someone because the previous nom claimed Goblin

I hereby bow out

[forest spindle]

04/18 Leviathan X General

[real heron]

Needs a good ST to run well, but it’s a neat interaction in the right Levi environment

I think this is one of those spaces where I’d say a 5-star is better than a 3-star

[short crystal]

I quite like this one 🤩 general fills a nice niche in a Levi environment

[tawny haven]

Very tough to run, very rewarding

[subtle wolf]

I don’t get it

[fringe mirage]

You can run the 3 generals problem with this if you want

But you do have a lot of vibes here, and town can only really change the rating through discussion and info, rather than execution

[rose oriole]

I do worry that most estees will just run general as an oracle

[short crystal]

I think signaling to the General that good is losing ground when the 1st good execution happens is kind of unavoidable, but that’s only a small part of the overall decision

and executing Minions doesn’t always mean good is doing better bc they might not be any closer to the Demon

[subtle wolf]

How does general get dynamic info and why are people praising this interaction

[forest spindle]

How come?

Also would you guys run this interaction like other demons when the evil win condition is different? Does good start off winning in a similar fashion? (Assuming this is your philosophy of course)

[grand token]

i feel like its just an oracle once good pushes first exe

¯_(ツ)_/¯

s'alright

makes general stronger than it might otherwise be

[subtle wolf]

04/19 Evil Twin x Heretic

Heretic can come out a little earlier because demon has to kill ET and then themself to win

Any way to make heretic good twin work?

Is it too easy for good to have good twin exe available when Heretic outs?