#Character interaction thingy

1 messages · Page 10 of 1

unborn trellis
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Whether goblin scarlet goblin imp or just goblin

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Evil can have the goblin pile option available

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But it should be late

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There should be a decent period of time before that

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Where evil does not know goblin pile is a total safe backup plan

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So they act socially different until they know goblin pile is ideal

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And the way to achieve this is have demon/minion checkers on script

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And if not in play, preferably not in the bluffs

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Because an evil team who very quickly or immediately figure out town cannot distinguish goblin vs demon will be socially indistinguishable

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Since they know acting like each other is just safe and is also a no brainer

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Like this is generally how it works for goblin regardless of imp/scarlet

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What imp does is it lets the demon be socially distinguishable from the goblin at the start while still can have a totally indistinguishable goblin pile

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By starpassing after acknowledging that demon/minion checkers are gone

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Like, I think it will require a larger portion of demon checkers to exist on script than goblin without imp

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But it can work

subtle wolf
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The situation where all relevant Townsfolk are dead before evils start claiming Goblin seems rare to me. Also, if the Imp starpasses after they know demon/minion checkers are gone, the good team can still just execute their other demon candidates before the Goblin-claiming player. Information about the early stage of the game (for example, an earlier Fortune Teller yes on the real Imp) helps the good team identify a starpass. So I think your analysis is insightful, but the "goblin pile" is still often distinguishable. Maybe it does require more demon/minion checkers than Goblin normally does.

unborn trellis
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Yeah it's like, imp know demon checker are gone

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town can distinguish imp by socials

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imp starpass

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2 minions both claim goblin

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oof

subtle wolf
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"Demon checker" is not the extent of Townsfolk that aid in this situation

unborn trellis
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demon/minion checker

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whatever

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Bc I think even with goblin, it's not the end of world to not have demon/minion checkers in play

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But it's necessary to make evil team fear their presence

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bc that's what stops evil team from goblin pile full stop

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and that's what make evil team still believe acting good is necessary at the start

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I'd claim that, almost or even all socials to distinguish an evil player being minion vs. demon

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Are based off while they were trying to claim good

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the moment they are outed evil, or dedicated to out evil, or decided it's unnecessary to act good

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it takes minimal effort to be indistinguishable on socials

subtle wolf
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By my count, there are 20 townsfolk that significantly fight against the Goblin vs demon dilemma

unborn trellis
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Yeah you just need...some of them

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My point is just you need things to pressure evil team to claim good, even with a goblin on their team

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Bc only by evils trying to claim good town can read minions vs demons socially

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an evil who thinks claiming good is unnecessary can very easily shut down minion vs demon social reads toward them

subtle wolf
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Evils are also socially distinguished by which ones seem like they're trying to be executed and which are trying to survive

unborn trellis
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bc claiming good is a requirement for

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pushing worlds

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Like, they're only genuinely trying to persuade town when they claim good

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and that's when you can spot their intentions

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If someone knows their opinions are not, influencing

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Then you won't know if they're speaking their true opinions

subtle wolf
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Another factor in this is the more evils claim Goblin, the less risky it is to execute any given one of them. And if it's two evils left, that's a 50/50 shot, which was your presumed winning chance at the start of the game.

Like I said before, we seem to not recognize that, because we're terrified of Goblin ever winning. This is not even a particularly winning play for evil.

unborn trellis
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It's always 50/50 tbh

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bc eventually executing a minion who claim goblin

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does nothing

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nomatter how many evils claim goblin

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it's 1 that you lose on, 1 that you wins on

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and a bunch others that doesn't matter

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But it's kinda boring for evil being able to lock in the 50/50 no effort

subtle wolf
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If you look at it that way, it's actually more like 60/40 in favor of good, because a demon is always in play and a Goblin is not always in play

unborn trellis
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I mean yeah but we talk about games where goblin is in play

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Like, games being fine on average, but certain games are problematic

subtle wolf
unborn trellis
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Yes

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And I'm saying the social reads from good

still sedge
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what social read do you get on "Me evil"

unborn trellis
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comes from the fact that, evil need to claim good

still sedge
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like

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The social read is equivalent to me putting up a robot named timmy to claim goblin when I'm nommed

unborn trellis
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they don't know if goblin pile is mechanically solvable or not at the start
So they still try to claim good until they think town has no tools to distinguish them

quartz girder
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unless evil instaclaims at the start of the game there are more social reads than just the goblin claim

unborn trellis
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and you backtrack on the earlies socials

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not the socials after they claim goblin

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socials after they claim goblin means little

subtle wolf
still sedge
unborn trellis
still sedge
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to claim goblin for me

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and make decisions on kills and stuff

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actually fuck it

subtle wolf
still sedge
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I'm giving my entire evil team robots named timmy

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Why should good bait themselves into more goblin losses

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if the answer is "saint" fair

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but like "I want 1 more day of info"

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is not

unborn trellis
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And you get social reads on them during when they don't think "me evil" is 100% safe

still sedge
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Timmy goblin monte. The real strat

unborn trellis
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Right like

still sedge
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Like I generally don't do the goblin monte

unborn trellis
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let's say we have FT preacher slayer on script, not in play
Well evil doesn't know that so it's fine

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But if you put them in the bluffs

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ehh prepare for goblin pile

still sedge
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but it's not because I'm worried about socials

unborn trellis
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right like, also i wanna mention grimpeekers too

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bc that's kinda what makes it worse

still sedge
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it's because it's fucking cringe

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realistically

unborn trellis
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like, if spidow tell evil the grim d1

still sedge
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Goblin monte is best with

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-grimpeekers

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-SW

unborn trellis
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and they're like "ooh we have no demon checkers latest by n2/3"

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yeah you know it will be dumb

still sedge
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-stupid high demon mobility

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hey what demon could possibly do that lil monsta

unborn trellis
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tbh lil monsta can just

still sedge
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I don't think base goblin monte is actually effective.

unborn trellis
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don't kill the FT

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just eh, why

still sedge
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because a 50/50 is kind of shit

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you need slightly higher odds

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which is where SW comes in, but imp doesn't

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so like whatever it's fine

subtle wolf
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Cue the arguments about SW/Gob

still sedge
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SW gob actually makes goblin monte effective

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which is

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not

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and they are not hard to tell apart unless you have like

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dreamer

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rk

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invest

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and that's it

unborn trellis
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see it's just the classic issue of

still sedge
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because notably "Goblin monte+SW" is a 66% evil win rate

unborn trellis
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what if evil players read the script

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ohh theres dreamer

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ooh wait it's a bluff

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gg

still sedge
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and yes

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all evil teams in this configuration could literally hire timmy the robot

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I hate timmy the robot

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but it's possible

unborn trellis
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You know like
We say goblin monte is more in theory than in practice
But i doubt that's just bc we played fine scripts with ok bags

still sedge
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it's too unfun

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as a sacrifice for playing the game

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you get.... the same winrate you would from playing the game

unborn trellis
still sedge
unborn trellis
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you just gaslight yourself to be the goblin as other evils and play normally first

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bc there is a chance that you don't get there

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it's just evil always have the baseline preparation of minion vs demon indistinguishable

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but they don't have to claim evil immediately to do that

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they only need to know claiming evil is literally always fine

still sedge
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too much difference

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might actually have a social read

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which is

unborn trellis
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maybe

still sedge
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not good

unborn trellis
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i mean not necessarily

still sedge
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so we hire timmy

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hell, no-one use the bluffs

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too much

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"good idea"

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instead, use timmy

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like, i'll be honest. I have and will sometimes play like timmy.

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I was a vortox who managed to

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-claim goblin to a magician(believed)

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-made a fake ass wizard wish that made my wincon appealing to good to try and proc

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-claimed goblin on the block(believed)

unborn trellis
still sedge
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-town decided to say fuck it and go for the wizard wish

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-I won

unborn trellis
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You gaslight yourself as the other evil character type

still sedge
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yeah

unborn trellis
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and play normally off that

still sedge
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"the I swapped my token" trick

unborn trellis
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now the issue is town might be not that good

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like, you pull demon, decide to play like minion

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well the way to play minion is bluff demon!

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surely town will think i'm a minion who's acting demonish

still sedge
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that's why you want homogenous timmies

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no social difference

unborn trellis
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it's just the double bluff issue

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bluff to be bluffing while claiming truth

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claims get believed

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oof

still sedge
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this is actual degenerate discussion wtf

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why am I talking about homogenous timmies

unborn trellis
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We need to fire timmy

still sedge
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lowkey I want timmy tho

unborn trellis
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you don't need that

still sedge
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like

unborn trellis
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just claim goblin and then never talk

still sedge
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he's just a propeller hat

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basically:Goblin SW sucks because timmy is a strategy.

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Goblin Imp is fine because timmy =! winrate increase(unless it's just... really goodsided. Which probably means it isn't viable anyway)

rose oriole
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what was the wizard wish

unborn trellis
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evil can go for a play that leads to

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  1. 50/50 (if get sussed)
  2. win (if not sussed)
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like, if imp starpass and town never went for the minions

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evil just wins

still sedge
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I mean

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town should be able to solve

rose oriole
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I never like it when all evils claim Goblin

unborn trellis
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Yeah that's why we discourage it from scriptbuilding

rose oriole
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It becomes "either you can solve it or you can't"

unborn trellis
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You make evils think town likely can solve it

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so they never do this

still sedge
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anyway

unborn trellis
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And this is like the peak of socials

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You read evils by forcing them to claim good

still sedge
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on actual like

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real topics

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oh damn 310 is taken

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fuck

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anyway hot take of the week I like saint fang gu

rose oriole
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I much prefer when either (1) all evils are outed but they have actual abilities that can cause mayhem like devils_advocate and stuff, or (2) there are some hidden evils so the "town crier" might actually be the last evil framing their Goblin as a demon

unborn trellis
still sedge
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I mean tbh saints can hide

unborn trellis
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peak saint loss moments that are just sad

subtle wolf
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Let’s keep this thread focused on the daily character interaction. Other stuff should be in #experimental-chat or #custom-script-discussion

unborn trellis
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goblin is the character that keeps discussion going

subtle wolf
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Here is the current topic. I wrote quite a bit about it, and other people gave valuable thoughts too.

still sedge
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uhhhh

tawny haven
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It's a type of thing a lot of scriptbuilders put on scripts without properly accounting for how strong Goblin actually is in practice. At its core, Goblin is an info sink, and people tend to underbuild that when scripting it, which means that it has a very common failure mode of letting evil all claim Goblin and forcing town to play three-goblin-monte because town can't solve who's who.

Imp exacerbates this by letting players who can solve Goblins find them, then starpass to them - and the worldbuilding possibilities that the actual Goblin just caught a starpass can be super oppressive and can easily get town to vote on the actual Goblin.

That's not to say you can't scriptbuild these well, but you need extreme care.

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I tend to follow principles S&V sets out when it comes to Goblin, because ET is similar enough in what it does to a good team: they need to devote resources to figure out who the Goblin is. This means:

  • At least 3, if not 4+ ways for good to get a read on a Goblin (S&V has TC/Seamstress/Juggler/Artist direct twinsolvers and Savant/Snake as indirect twinsolvers - though it's worth noting that not all twin solvers are goblin solvers (eg Seam) and vice versa (eg Dreamer))
  • A signal for when the Goblin might have become the Demon (S&V has the Barber, who is usually a good player and will usually be telling players this (and if not the ET ability sends a ping out anyway) and the Pit-Hag, whose ability to create a new Demon is always signalled, with the very niche edgecase of Pit-Hagging the ET into an Outsider in a Fang Gu game and jumping them)
subtle wolf
tawny haven
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Exactly. I don't think Imp/Goblin is a good interaction because it is nigh impossible to signal that the Goblin has become the Demon with it

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You still can, but Oracle and General are about as close as you can get

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or, like, specific character-checkers that aren't once-per-game - Dreamer is the big one

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that way the way you can redream an Outsider who gets Fang Gu jumped or someone in a twin pair to see if they're now a Demon, you can redream someone dreamt as a Goblin to see if that's changed to a Demon

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If, e.g. Imp was on Sects and Violets, I don't think Evil Twin would be nearly as functional there due to how the info landscape works

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There are quite a few alignment checkers and also a Savant so it's not horrid but I do think it'd be worse off if the Evil Twin could silently become the Demon without insane edge cases or a 13+ player game with insane coordination

subtle wolf
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Suppose a snake charmer has checked most living players, including a prominent Goblin claim, and remained the snake charmer. One of the two players he hasn't checked dies at night. Public worldbuilding suggests this might be an Imp game. The snake charmer announces his information and suggests the previous Goblin claim might be the Imp now, or perhaps the other living player he didn't check was always the demon.

Is this a sufficient counter to Imp/Goblin? Does the snake charmer count as a signal? If not, was a signal really needed?

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I think this type of scenario is reasonably likely, and it successfully balances Imp/Goblin without a signal by using previous information to interpret the current gamestate (a possible starpass)

tawny haven
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I think that specific scenario is probably a best-case scenario, but involves a few assumptions that aren't typically generalizable.

Being able to know about that many non-Demons is exclusive info to the SC due to other info sources having more ways for it to be wrong, and the SC being a "push your luck" character means that it usually doesn't clear large swathes of the board like that in practice (most players I know tend to select a few players, then start picking themselves).

The Imp is a pretty quiet Demon, having no obvious tell, meaning it either needs a script where it's always obvious if it's an Imp game, or strong ways to determine the Demon type that can be confirmed by other players. In practice, worlds tend to be fuzzy around Imps outside of solo scripts - there's a reason Imp gets paired with Demons like No Dashii and Fang Gu so often.

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Overall, I think that specific scenario is one where the Goblin possibly becoming the Demon via a starpass is balanced, but I think it implies conditions that either need to be scripted for extremely carefully or simply aren't as common as they should be for it to be as balanced as I personally would like

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I will acknowledge my specific bias in that I personally have a lot lower of a tolerance for scenarios where the Goblin can turn otherwise-won games into blind luck. I've been on evil teams that have been 100% outed and won anyway because town executed the Goblin, and I've STed games where evil knowingly massclaimed Goblin and won about it, and not many people had fun in either scenario. I acknowledge that what's not fun or balanced for me might be balanced or fun for other people, in that respect.

subtle wolf
# tawny haven I tend to follow principles S&V sets out when it comes to Goblin, because ET is ...

I tend to follow principles S&V sets out when it comes to Goblin, because ET is similar enough in what it does to a good team: they need to devote resources to figure out who the Goblin is

This is fascinating, and I'd love to explore ET/Imp at a later point, discussing and scriptbuilding. For this conversation, though, I think the comparison is weak. A core feature of Evil Twin is that the good team must either solve the twins or execute the demon before F3, while Goblin claims can usually be smuggled into F3, where the Goblin's ability is irrelevant. The only exception is the exceedingly rare case where three or more evil players can successfully bluff Goblin, which is a larger script issue.

subtle wolf
wooden knoll
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I have never seen a person defend an interaction so much

wary solstice
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Goblin + Imp is on 'Speedy Nights', and back in #the-day-the-music-died town almost lost on executing the Goblin while very much winning, and the lift and continuation led to the game being a 50/50.

But that circumstance is very specific and unusual and doesn't involve the Imp too much in terms of theory.

subtle wolf
runic solstice
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I think this is an extremely unhealthy way to discuss this.

I don't take issue with the fact that you like imp/goblin. I don't like it, but that's okay. I take issue with the way you're presenting this opinion. You've been repeatedly wording your argument like "the best minion/demon combo" and "I believe the negative views^ on this situation are mistaken", which serves to present your argument as objective fact. It's not. Script writing and game design in general are an art form, which means that subjectivity is inherently baked into it. Some people will like certain things, and others won't--we all need to respect that. When presented with other people's experiences, your reaction seems to be, at least in part, to brush that off and replace it with your own assumptions. You're probably not intending this, but the message that that sends is that you don't respect other people's experiences and opinions, and that you're asking for them just so you can shoot them down. At times it stops being a discussion, it becomes 2 parties talking to different sides of a brick wall. Without respect, and without listening to each other, we can't move forward productively.

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I've been in several game design circles over the past few years and this is a consistent problem

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And there's just no way to be productive when the terms of the conversation don't include respect

frigid flower
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I think goblin imp is very synergistic and can be script build well, but it is a true "expert" level interaction.

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The more expert an script gets thou the more they have tendency to have out right bad interactions or interactions that lead to stressful games.

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This are my two cents

subtle wolf
# runic solstice I think this is an extremely unhealthy way to discuss this. I don't take issue ...

There is a difference between the subjective, artistic side of game design and the more limited views on what “works” or “doesn’t work”, which is shorthand for a way of thinking through game mechanics that we all share and are trying to sort through. In the latter case, it is entirely appropriate to say I think others are mistaken and explain why, and what is unhealthy is shutting down strong disagreement.

Furthermore, in that message, I clearly delineate the subjective side by discussing why some people might personally dislike the combo or not fully appreciate what it offers (playing online versus in person, or having a technical personality). This doesn’t put anyone down, it just acknowledges acceptable personal differences. I ended the message by asking people to reconsider. Nothing wrong here.

runic solstice
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When presented with other people's experiences, your reaction seems to be, at least in part, to brush that off and replace it with your own assumptions.

subtle wolf
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Crazy that you can end your criticism by saying this “isn’t productive.” Please reread the extended discussion we’ve all had with many great points raised by different people, partially in response to my probing.

runic solstice
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Please read my messages

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Please

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That's all that I'm asking

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I've read your messages, and I don't want to respond to the content of the messages right now because I don't think it's useful

subtle wolf
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I’ve read your messages too. I’d be happy to hear where I “brushed off” someone’s thoughts and “replaced them with my own assumptions”. Please show me!

runic solstice
runic solstice
subtle wolf
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Please look up the definition of “brush off”. Thoughtfully responding and disagreeing is, definitionally, not brushing off.

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Insane to cite my response to Axolator about Evil Twin. That’s a completely cordial and thoughtful message.

runic solstice
subtle wolf
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Bro cited a message where I mostly agreed with the other person

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Didn’t you just accuse me of not reading messages?

runic solstice
runic solstice
wary solstice
# subtle wolf I’ve read your messages too. I’d be happy to hear where I “brushed off” someone’...

Sure, here's where you brushed off people!

"Crazy that you can end your criticism" Denoting Hystrex explicitly as crazy reduces any criticism to a direct attack on Hystrex' psyche and well being. Denoting others as merely 'crazy' and reducing their agency and capacity for reason is explicitly a means of brushing someone off via dismissing and ignoring them while also casually treating them as unimportant.

"Furthermore, in that message, I clearly delineate the subjective side by discussing why some people might personally dislike the combo or not fully appreciate what it offers" Is the fallacy of Circular Argument, your conclusion is that the there is something to appreciate, and rather than addressing the criticisms here you simply re-iterated your final point as the very premise, which fundamentally ignores anything anyone else can possible have said.

"Much of the skepticism about Goblin interactions seems to come from an assumption that Goblin claims need to be perfectly solvable, although nobody would agree with that when it's stated explicitly." Reducing other people's claims to mere 'assumptions' while also explicitely placing yourself as 'delineated [from] the subjective side' reduces everyone else's agency and capacity for reason, while also engaging in the strawman by reducing other's claims to a more extreme position.

subtle wolf
subtle wolf
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I’m going to bow out of this conversation before doing so draws another accusation of brushing someone off

runic solstice
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This is fascinating, and I'd love to explore ET/Imp at a later point, discussing and scriptbuilding.
Great! Let's see what's next
For this conversation, though, I think the comparison is weak.
Brushing her point off
A core feature of Evil Twin is that the good team must either solve the twins or execute the demon before F3, while Goblin claims can usually be smuggled into F3, where the Goblin's ability is irrelevant.
This substitutes in your own assumption. Axo is talking about the game being bad before final 3, and you're sidestepping that point entirely
The only exception is the exceedingly rare case where three or more evil players can successfully bluff Goblin, which is a larger script issue.
This is 3 more assumptions that may or may not be shared by others but are presented as fact rather than opinion (the "rare" bit is less of an opinion and more of an experience, but the same thing applies)

wary solstice
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Furthermore, if you claim you weren't calling Hystrex 'crazy', you'd have to then state someone else was the target of your claim, which I fail to see the value in the defense that you were brushing someone else off to demonstrate you weren't brushing anyone off

runic solstice
winter bobcat
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Much higher potential for unfun games than fun ones, so bad interaction

frigid flower
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I think it is equal

coral jungle
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Moving on, how do guys feel about a new interaction?

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I know it's early but still.

frigid flower
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I dont know what else can we talk about

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Philo atheist

tulip sage
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[3/11]

minstrelMinstrel x boomdandyBoomdandy

coral jungle
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHA no

wary solstice
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Why we're having the Bard disarm over the Rogue is beyond me, but seems to work.

coral jungle
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More artificer, no?

summer adder
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very sad for the boomdandy

unborn trellis
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There should be a jinx

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Or maybe not

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Bc ||Taxman|| is something TPI is cooking

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So maybe this is…also expected to happen

shadow cradle
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Actually, does minstrel also stop a goblin win?

summer adder
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thats sad in the other direction

unborn trellis
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we should do the jinx that minstrel only drunk boomdandy if it's executed

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so they remove a part of each other's ability

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now they both feel bad

real heron
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Where’s that meme something along the lines of:

Good point. Unfortunately drunk+poisoned+ratio

wooden knoll
wooden knoll
weak ingot
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i'm actually workshopping Minstrel Boomdandy jinxes so this is a funny coinkydink

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one of them is like "when boom + minstrel, the ST stops at any time and it doesn't go to point"

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unfortunately it also confirms minstrel

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it's quite hard to make a good jinx for these two

shadow cradle
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Maybe smth like everybody is drunk and the minstrel dies in the night?

subtle wolf
tawny haven
boreal nest
boreal nest
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99% minstrel fans die right before a minion is executed

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1% of minstrels are executed the next day as the mastermind

boreal nest
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But yeah

green fiber
coral jungle
coral jungle
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[3/12] Hatter hatter x Baron baron

obsidian trout
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Baron always has a reason to swap out and nobody has a reason to swap into it

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Well, I guess if you were a dead minion you'd swap into baron to give your other minions more options

steady kernel
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Yeah, there being an obviously optimal decision is just boring, and why Baron doesn’t play nice with a lot of character changing

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Since it’s a blank token after setup

weak ingot
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if only TPI copy-pasted the PD jinx onto everything

image.png
steady kernel
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Active Baron real

weak ingot
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> hatter dies
> +2 hatters
> hatter dies
> +2 hatters
> hatter dies
> +2 hatters
> hatter dies
> +1 hatter
> hatter dies
> +1 hatter
> hatter dies
> +1 hatters, which one of which has to include the demon and evil loses

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yes, this is peak clocktower

coral jungle
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Look at me being selfish with the character interaction thingy choices.

subtle wolf
# coral jungle ## [3/12] Hatter <:hatter:1179936693982347274> x Baron <:baron:58669396932978282...

Not a good pair. If Baron is in play, a Hatter is more likely in play, and minions will have the privilege of switching characters more often. Baron benefits more from switching than any minion. This makes Baron even more powerful than it already is, a buff Baron doesn’t need (overall, the second most powerful minion in BOTC).

If Baron is out of play and the Hatter dies, minions will basically never choose Baron, so they have limited decent options. Not only is this boring, it means games that start with Baron are significantly better for evil than non-Baron games. Again, this is the opposite balance that Baron needs.

coral jungle
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I'm mostly looking for an excuse to change out plague doctor on Spin Doctoring, as it introduces a bit too much unnecessary baggage.

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Also hatter is really cool with basically everything else.

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This is the one thing I was iffy on.

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So naturally the baron interaction is worse than the plague-baron one. Of course it is.

sterile jetty
#

I love the Tophat Man and his absolutely terrible and proprietary idiosyncrasies, this is a great example of one of them

wooden knoll
fringe mirage
obsidian trout
#

Absolutely nothing

fringe mirage
#

3/13: Savant savant x Poisoner poisoner

#

(Basically, how well ca Savant constant info and flexibility deal with red juice?)

unborn trellis
#

It’s just, normally

wraith parcel
#

I feel the type of scripts savant usually goes on can't handle poisoner, but the interaction itself is fine imo

green fiber
#

don’t do it

#

savant isn’t frontloaded enough

#

bad interaction

grand token
#

the nature of savant's info makes it so it is not only very difficult for storytellers to generate good arbitrary info but also makes it nearly impossible for good to easily and fairly solve on scripts with savant

#

poisoner is generally js too strong

real heron
#

Savants deserve good things

#

This is not a good thing

weak ingot
#

don't do this

#

Nightmare Nightmare Nightmare Nightmare solveability

frigid flower
#

Make it obvious.

#

Give the same stament twice.

grand token
#

and hard confirm droison thru inforole 🔥

forest spindle
#

Poisoner is so hard to solve already, it works best with info thats easy to decipher - evil/good, demon not demon, characters.
Also prefers characters that are frontloaded as kenoboi said. If the script is filled with balloonist, villige idiot and savant which all need their full cluster of info to solve, the poisoner can just tap a different player each night. All strings of info will be broken and the good team wont know which night they chose who.

With that said you could make it pretty obvious they are poisoned as yuuki and arepasxo said to patch fix make it work

tawny haven
#

What I mean is that Poisoner is balanced on TB by most of the characters being bad poisons most of the time - an Empath whose neighbors haven't changed, an Undertaker seeing the Virgin-executed player, top 4s past N1, OPGs who don't spend

#

It's basically just FT that the poison always matters for

#

And even then, you'll often give true info to a poisoned FT

#

this isn't true of Savant, who you can ~always give poisoned info to and not have it bite evil in the ass

#

If you stack too many "always-poisons" on a Poisoner script, it can get super oppressive. As a Savant, it's near-impossible to solve if your info is poisoned or not, and because poisoning the Savant will always do something, it makes it a worse interaction with Poisoner than most of TB.

humble lantern
#

Extrapolating this outwards yeah folks need to stop reacting with a big red X even when a player is wrong (not saying Darrivis is wrong here) because it’s just de-motivating to engagement. Disagree with a point? Just speak up

tawny haven
#

[14/3] Fang Gu fang_gu / Golem golem

still sedge
#

It’s ok I guess

#

Unless it’s base 0 without GF on script

#

then selfkill meta re-enters play

#

and that’s cringe

weak ingot
#

¯_(ツ)_/¯

grand token
#

generally not a good idea to incentivize self punch in any capacity

real heron
#

#1399777176902963360 message
Previously discussed, not sure if my opinions have changed much since

forest spindle
#

It might run into some unfun scenarios but its kinda cool that a golem isnt confirmed good after nominating

wary solstice
#

Has potential unfortunate possibilities if not script built correctly or bag built without care (like base 0 outsiders and no other explanation for Golem death and extra outsiders as mentioned by Nerdguy).

coral jungle
#

Can't really contribute much here, other than the self-punch meta stay winning baby!

winter bobcat
#

Just punch other outsider claims then exe yourself

coral jungle
#

Though I have come around to thinking that punching one self usually makes golem a self-defusing outsider. But with fang gu here, it's now a townsfolk.

fervent basalt
#

I don't think a self-punching meta is fun

fringe mirage
#

3/15: Snake Charmer snake_charmer x Scarlet Woman scarlet_woman

still sedge
#

don't tell your demon you're the SW

subtle wolf
#

Ya, tell them you’re the Goblin because you’re playing Caravan

still sedge
#

💀

boreal nest
grand token
boreal nest
#

Bluffing different minion to your demon

#

Les go

subtle wolf
coral jungle
#

3/16 Flowergirl flowergirl x Recluse recluse

rose oriole
#

Kinda turns the recluse into an anti-Zealot

steady kernel
#

Yeah, I think it’s too oppressive for the Recluse themselves. Not a fan

green fiber
#

ah damn i missed it

#

also yeah recluse with flowergirl is even more depressing than recluse with tv

grand token
#

resetting the days since recluse interaction

forest spindle
#

Forces an unfun play pattern where you cant vote as recluse in order to not destroy flowergirl info

still sedge
#

Recluse being hermit d1

#

(Specifically a hermit butler)

weak ingot
#

i think this interaction is a case of saying “X is an outsider” missing the point entirely

#

FG implies a less arbitrary misinfo suite anyway. why is recluse here?

tawny haven
#

eh, I think if you need both on a script you need both on a script

#

all of FG/TC/Recluse is really sad but just one of FG/TC is typically okay

#

though TC is the better one because "don't nominate" is usually more fun to play around than "don't vote"

weak ingot
#

yeah, my Round to Why (TBSNV) has TC

boreal nest
#

me when outsider hurts the good team

chilly cedar
#

Sometimes it hurts the good team in ways which are fun and engaging

#

And other times it doesn't

boreal nest
#

fair

#

it does make getting votes on people harder as a byproduct

chilly cedar
#

Like mutant still hurts good, but is able to vote and nominate

boreal nest
#

which can be played around with

#

in sense it creates some interesting situation

#

but i do see a point

weak ingot
boreal nest
#

yeah thats fair

tawny haven
#

It's less "is this balanced" and more "is this fun", imo

#

Like, sure, it hurts the good team for the Recluse to not be able to vote, but it's usually not fun for them to do that

fervent basalt
#

yeah

unborn trellis
#

The flowergirl who had no fun bc recluse voted every day:

wild bridge
#

3/17 Magician magician x Damsel damsel

unborn trellis
#

The 1st question is what’s the interaction

obsidian trout
#

I don't really see how these interact

rose oriole
#

Magician can "make a Damsel guess" to seem like a Minion

unborn trellis
#

I mean yeah magician can do damsel guess but like

#

It’s quite minimal

#

Also they let minions start knowing 1 non damsel player

#

Which might actually be bigger than magician making damsel guess…

wild bridge
fringe mirage
quartz girder
#

I will say these are some of my favorite characters to make steward feel interesting to have on a script

subtle wolf
# wild bridge # 3/17 Magician <:magician:806681123999580211> x Damsel <:damsel:806709791471960...

These characters have similar vibes, and probably reinforce each other in that way.

I’m worried about bags with both characters, because good is more likely to lose from a successful Damsel guess when minions know one additional non-Damsel. And there is no positive direct interaction to bolster the pair. Magician guessing a Damsel doesn’t trick the demon, and it more or less solves the minions’ confusion about the two demons they learned. It’s also a horrible meta because it gives cover for minions guessing Damsel, which is otherwise a public admission to being evil.

#

The only way I can think to rescue that is scripting both with Scarlet Woman. Perhaps SW in multi-minion games allows demons to guess Damsels, tricking them into outing and using the minion damsel guess later. This could allow magicians to guess damsel… maybe? This is a stretch. I’m suggesting the only way I can think to make Magician/Damsel positively work.

quartz girder
#

idt the "fake damsel guessing" really screws up the game, damsel guessing as magician is almost always an awful play and so guessing a damsel is generally still outing evil

subtle wolf
#

You’re saying fake damsel guessing doesn’t mess up the game because it doesn’t happen?

quartz girder
#

yes, pretty much. the magician should pretty much never damsel guess, and therefore town should pretty much never believe that the damsel guesser was actually the magician all along

#

you can script around making that interaction more interesting and letting evil have plays that resemble that but idt thats what this character interaction is going for

subtle wolf
#

I agree. I was just explaining why the magician shouldn’t do it

quartz girder
#

oh ok makes sense

unborn trellis
#

I think even though there isn’t much interaction they’re nice counterparts

#

Naturally evil knows each other and has better coordination

#

While good can be more public and honest

#

Magician/ poppy takes away the info advantage of evil

#

While damsel take away social advantage of town

#

So now you have play style on both teams more similar

wooden knoll
weak ingot
#

.> don't know what you mean

wooden knoll
#

If it did, I would have won more games

wooden knoll
#

I forgot whom it was though

unborn trellis
#

despite the magician trying so hard, evil didn't care

wooden knoll
#

So even if you bluff damsel guess, they would find their evil team by d3

#

Unless they're very bad

#

Then uh

#

Good deserves that win

frigid flower
#

Magician is a socials slayer shot

#

Where you can snipe the minion or the demon if youre lucky enough.

grand token
#

magicians effect is just to obliterate evil coordination and socials i dont think theres much in the way of complex bluffing and other stuff u can rly pull off even with damsel onscript. you will generally eventually be found out and thats fine, the point of magician isnt to make minions believe you are the demon and vice versa

#

part of reason why magician isnt insanely fun in alot of cases

frigid flower
#

For me it is an slayer shot

#

"Ohhh yeah im the demon yay here are your bluff fellow minion"

grand token
#

even then a minion would generally be silly to fall for that when aware a magician is in play

#

i suppose you can literally just "hi demon" everyone in the game day 1 and it miiiight work if they like have an immense lapse in judgement

frigid flower
#

It does work

grand token
#

maybe on your groups first time playing on a magi script

frigid flower
#

No my group its still pretty magician weak

grand token
#

its like a demon falling for traveler "hi demon" strat but even infinitely more avoidable

#

bec demon specifically knows someone will purposely be trying to do that during the game as the literal point of their ability

#

i dont disagree that its something that happens though

#

ive seen it myself

#

i just think those sorts of interactions will disappear as your players actually get used to basic strats of the script

weak ingot
#

March 18 — Tea Lady tea_lady and No Dashii no_dashii

frigid flower
#

Lunar Eclipse core interaction

edgy socket
#

Tea Lady's bad interaction with demons is "being next to them", so No Dashii doesn't have the particular problem it can have with mechanical roles because the neighbouring is already the issue

tawny haven
#

It's not the worst thing ever but it's not especially synergistic either imo

coral jungle
#

While this interaction isn't ideal, as vati as pointed out it's not as problematic as it looks. The real trouble, I feel, is what script warrants these two characters together?

frigid flower
#

Works best with marionette, drunk and lunatic

#

Mutant too

coral jungle
#

Yes yes Lunar Eclipse, but that script is iffy to say the least.

frigid flower
#

It is good

#

You just gotta bad build good bags

coral jungle
#

The mario in particular is iffy

frigid flower
#

Yea

obsidian trout
#

Yeah not really sure why no dashii is on a script with mechanical roles like tea lady

frigid flower
#

Lunar Eclipse its like that

boreal nest
#

But yeah

subtle wolf
shadow cradle
#

It only has an effect if there is an outsider sitting between the tea lady and the no dashii

coral jungle
sudden drift
#

A minion wouldn't change anything

summer adder
#

a good minion 🙂‍↕️

shadow cradle
#

Good traveller

subtle wolf
#

3/19: Al-Hadikhiaal_hadikhia x Boffinboffin

Does al_hadikhia benefit from certain Townsfolk abilities?

obsidian trout
#

Well

#

Not inherently any interaction here

#

Boffin mayor 🔥

real heron
#

Ride the Cyclone moment

subtle wolf
formal pivot
#

That is the riot symbol

boreal nest
#

Nah

formal pivot
#

Wait nvm

#

I’m actually just blind

boreal nest
formal pivot
#

I don’t think any demon particularly enjoys boffin abilities more than another

real heron
#

imo generally having quiet minions with the loud demon is very nice. I think Boffin is peak quiet minions for Al-Hadikhia because of the town and outsiders that generally come along with Al-Hadikhia, but it’s such an indirect interaction that it can’t be assessed in a vacuum

quartz girder
#

alhadikia boffin lycanthrope would lowkey cook

boreal nest
#

Al had has bad time hiding theur location if they don't pick themselves

real heron
quartz girder
#

...yeah lycan alhad is otherwise an awful interaction

subtle wolf
wary solstice
# subtle wolf # 3/19: Al-Hadikhia<:al_hadikhia:806681104118841386> x Boffin<:boffin:1289010338...

The main interaction I see here is that the Al-Had can kill and revive their Boffin to switch out abilities with each new instance of the Boffin. Town can't really prevent this, executing the Boffin just makes the loop faster or results in more deaths. There's also the mind game with outed Boffin, since they could choose either option at night to try to fool the other chosen one way or another.

How useful reloading the Boffin is does depend on what other roles are on the script.

real heron
#

Yeah I think Boffin is the least vacuum character ever

#

So trying to analyse it always comes back to ‘depends on what’s on script’

wary solstice
#

I mean, Nick's still right in that there is an interaction here with intentional Boffin reloading. How useful the interaction is depends on the script, but the interaction exists.

boreal nest
wary solstice
boreal nest
#

I didnt know that

#

Damn

wary solstice
# boreal nest I didnt know that

From the HOW TO RUN:

Each night except the first, wake the Al-Hadikhia. They may point at three players. If they do, mark these players with the 1, 2 and 3 reminders, in the order the Al-Hadikhia chose. Put the Al-Hadikhia to sleep. Wake the player marked 1 and say “The Al-Hadikhia has chosen” then the name of the player, then “Do you choose to live?” They either nod or shake their head. Put them to sleep. If they chose to live, remove their shroud (if any), and if they choose to die, add a shroud. Repeat for players marked 2 then 3. If all three players are alive (none of them have a shroud) then add a shroud to all three. They die. Declare that the time of silence has ended.

humble lantern
humble lantern
chilly cedar
#

Alhad boffin does have some specific good combinations

#

One is reviving the boffin as mentioned

#

Alhad benefits a huge amount from the soldier or fool ability

#

As it means them choosing themselves is now risk free

#

Other demons don't nearly as much

#

Alhad benefits from quiet, unknown minions because it's such a loud demon

subtle wolf
wary solstice
unborn trellis
#

Boffin make some tfs not uniquely damaging to alhad

#

But there isn’t rlly anything uniquely helpful

still sedge
unborn trellis
#

Hot take: soldier alhad doesn’t need boffin

#

Bc it already takes both other 2 ppl to choose live (then die) to confirm soldier

coral jungle
#

It's actually so the al-had can pick themselves with no fear of accidental death.

still sedge
#

Which isn’t crazy on a good alhad script

unborn trellis
still sedge
#

SW alhad is actually so wildly ass

coral jungle
#

Scarlet is probably the single worst al-had interaction

still sedge
#

Due to rez cycling

#

Sooooo

unborn trellis
#

don’t kill the rezzed demon is the play

#

Go kill the scarlet

#

If the rezzed alhad doesn’t self kill before 5 they just get exed and lose

#

So nothing scary for town

still sedge
coral jungle
#

But it becomes a game of whack-an-al-had

unborn trellis
#

You can choose either to think they cannot double kill on 4 and exe
Or you take a fat nap

#

I think it’s not horrendous bc the combo is actually not strong

coral jungle
#

It's probably not that strong actually, but it's still very bad.

still sedge
#

2 minions=yes they can actually get that double kill

coral jungle
#

Mainly since you can keep up this game infinitely in theory.

#

You can also rez the scarlet, other minions, innoccent townfolk...

unborn trellis
#

You lose to fiddler if do that

coral jungle
#

Where is fiddler coming into this?

#

And if it forces you to fiddle, it's a bad interaction.

still sedge
#

You pick 1 person to rez

#

For 1 kill

unborn trellis
#

Scarlet get exed, choose a dead minion and rez scarlet
Alhad get exed, choose a dead minion and rez alhad

#

At this point it’s just getting fiddled

still sedge
#

Why the dead minion

unborn trellis
#

Bc why would good players be willing to play along and rez the evil

still sedge
#

Because they’re…. First

coral jungle
#

If it forces you to put a fiddler in play, the interaction is a problem.

still sedge
#

and don’t know

unborn trellis
#

Due to them being trivially evil through getting back alive multiple times

#

Like this requires you to Rez both alhad and scarlet now

coral jungle
#

Even if a good player doesn't play along, being able to do this in any count about 10 is an issue.

#

If you want a safety net with al-had, go mastermind or devil's advocate.

unborn trellis
#

Mastermind alhad jinx is lowkey ass

#

Bc town doesn’t need to react differently to the mastermind 3 picks vs normal picks

coral jungle
#

It's a 50/50 on RtC

unborn trellis
#

Evil wins 50% of MM nights there?

coral jungle
#

Yes

unborn trellis
#

be better

#

I mean this is quite concerning

coral jungle
#

The trick is town's default reaction should be 3 lives

unborn trellis
#

That’s called bad

coral jungle
#

Because everyone in al-had should be incentivized to pick live with a few exceptions.

unborn trellis
#

Not as individuals

coral jungle
#

This creates a push-your-luck element

unborn trellis
#

The live and death of each individual player contributes to the whole pool of team advantages

still sedge
unborn trellis
#

So you just need to pool smartly

coral jungle
#

I had the same thought as you, but then literally the first playtest game evil won off it. Then they won the second one with MM. It took 3 MM games for them to lose off it.

#

It comes down to being smart with your picks, and timing

unborn trellis
#

Look if alhad get 50% of 3 live on mm nights

coral jungle
#

And I admit, politician makes it much easier to pull off.

unborn trellis
#

They’d get as much triple kills normally

still sedge
#

Alhads get like

#

40% triples

coral jungle
#

RtC the average night yields about 2.5 kills.

#

And al-hads pick mastermind kills very carefully.

unborn trellis
#

Like ofc you can be smart but eh
The town also should be smart

unborn trellis
still sedge
#

“I’m info and want to live and was told the player before me was banshee”

coral jungle
still sedge
#

“So ill pick live”

coral jungle
#

Especially since info is weighted on a few key characters.

still sedge
#

(And then a triple kill happens)

unborn trellis
#

😭

#

You knew that

still sedge
#

Whatever

coral jungle
still sedge
#

They were courtier drunk

coral jungle
#

The al-had kills after all picks.

still sedge
#

They die immediately

summer adder
unborn trellis
#

if town lose 50% of mm nights the normal town decisions are horrendous

still sedge
unborn trellis
#

Even if you tamper the script this way it’s still true

still sedge
#

Except it’s not like crazy decision making

coral jungle
unborn trellis
#

Bc if this person is an ongoing info role
but so are 8 other tfs on script
Well maybe they pick to die!

coral jungle
unborn trellis
#

Yeah then why do we get 3 kills so often

#

🙃

coral jungle
#

Because everyone else picks die

#

That's also 3 kills

#

Save the easy lives for the MM night.

#

5-6 is the perfect sweet spot.

unborn trellis
#

That just means alhad get a higher proportion of triple kills than proportion of mm wins

coral jungle
#

Checking again, RtC has 8 townsfolk that really want to live, and 5 that can safely pick die.

#

That drives up confidence somebody else will do it for you.

#

While still being easy kills.

unborn trellis
#

If there are 8 tfs that really want to live
You should have a player (who get the same character on these 2 scripts) more likely to pick die than on a script where 5 tfs really want to live
And it is balanced out by the fact more ppl get characters that naturally more want to live

#

Like if you have 8tfs that want to live, each of them should be less willing to choose live
Comparing to a script that has 5tfs that want to live

coral jungle
#

It's actually the inverse

#

Since with 8 tf, you have enough that these guys run into massive paranoia over who might be lying.

#

And also create enough apathy for people to pass the buck.

#

It's an unstable equilibrium, but it works quite well

unborn trellis
#

No like

coral jungle
#

I'd recommend you run the script.

unborn trellis
#

If someone is FT on a script with 3 ongoing tf
And someone is FT on a script with 8 ongoing tf

#

The 1st one will be more willing to live

coral jungle
#

Oh they aren't all info

unborn trellis
#

Same thing

coral jungle
#

Preach is not info, passive amne is not info

#

Alsaahir is not really info

unborn trellis
still sedge
#

8 out of 13

unborn trellis
#

But having more of these types of characters make each of them less willing to live

still sedge
#

8/13 ~ 1/3

coral jungle
#

Only around 6 of the 8 are ongoing info

unborn trellis
#

Or at least that’s what happens when…they’re good

#

It really doesn’t matter if it’s info

coral jungle
#

It also incentivizes evil or the poli to bluff some sort of bait

#

And get a sneaky triple

unborn trellis
#

The point is ongoing not info

still sedge
#

So “without a claim” 1 will pick die

unborn trellis
coral jungle
#

Poli on the other hand...

unborn trellis
coral jungle
#

It's also some of these guys really want to stay alive

unborn trellis
#

if you get a stupid amount of 3 lives it’s not how the tf suit tempers with it
But more that how evils and poli bluff it

coral jungle
#

The amne, if dead and doesn't know ability, is dead weight. The preacher is too.

unborn trellis
#

Bc the chance each person choose live/die will adapt to the tfs on script

coral jungle
#

Balloonist is almost worthless if it dies early.

#

Unspent fish is dead weight if it dies

#

Same thing goes for seamstress

still sedge
#

~1 out of 3 will choose die

subtle wolf
still sedge
#

and that's why balloonist is on ||GoS||

#

thank you thank you(this is possibly bullshit)

outer bobcat
#

I think alsaahir is info

frigid flower
#

Alsahiir the more smaller the player group is the more overly information it is

sterile jetty
#

[3/20] Organ Grinder organ_grinder x Vortox vortox

#

Hey its time for me to do one of these!

still sedge
#

peak

#

actual vortox wins? sign me the fuck up

subtle wolf
#

The wins are anticlimactic

still sedge
#

nom less

wild bridge
coral jungle
frigid flower
#

Too expert like

#

Good team gotta lock in

unborn trellis
#

It’s cool why not

fringe mirage
subtle wolf
#

I’ve never played with these characters together, but it seems basically impossible to intentionally avoid a tied vote. There is way too much variance with individual votes, not to mention evil players who will vote contrary to their stated beliefs-although, evil players too would struggle to tie the vote. So this is mostly a crapshoot that ends the game anticlimactically.

tawny haven
#

I've played with these together and while it's controversial, I think these Vortox wins are mostly-avoidable if good locks in and coordinates. That being said, it's not a script combo for everyone.

cloud sentinel
#

genuinely a good interaction

steady kernel
#

Really did not like it with old Organ Grinder. With new Organ Grinder, it’s fine, though definitely a stronger interaction since it makes what’s normally a pretty inconsequential part of the Vortox an actual threat

boreal nest
#

Throw in zealot and it becomes even better

real heron
subtle wolf
tawny haven
subtle wolf
#

Interesting. I wanna ST it now to see people work through that process

tawny haven
#

i've got a script, if you're at all interested in hearing me out

coral jungle
#

One thing I worry about is this can backfire on evil. This could create accidental hard vortox checks that disprove a large part of the misinfo suite.

tawny haven
#

That's why you can't build Vortox as being loadbearing to the info suite if solved one way or the other

#

you have to be really careful to make a script where an outed Vortox can survive, and an outed non-Vortox isn't dead in the water

green fiber
#

also organ grinder mentioned, bad interaction

wary solstice
unborn trellis
#

It exists to forced a non-good d1 exe

#

Bc vortox eliminates the play of pummeling someone d1 with a few present info

#

So forcing a d1 exe as wincon now means town need to make decision with almost no mechanical leads

#

You see ppl just meta kill clock seam artist d1

#

Bc vortox removes the presence of any “based” kill d1

#

So bejng a “spent role” is just kinda the only clue left

green fiber
sterile jetty
#

Thank you all for your feedback on this interaction!

subtle wolf
fringe mirage
#

3/21: Undertaker undertaker x Heretic heretic

obsidian trout
#

Undertaker better get good at lying

chilly cedar
#

Good interaction in a vacuum. The undertaker gets to know the Heretic. They can work together. It makes the undertaker lie. Neat!

However... Undertaker usually needs a grimpeeker (Widow, Spy, Wraith?) to work. These don't work with Heretic that well. The best option is to have boffin on script

obsidian trout
#

Boffin undertaker and heretic is a crazy combo

forest spindle
#

Demon with undertaker ability seeing heretic :O

weak ingot
#

i'm actually of the opinion that Heretic and Spidow work just fine

#

if you're willing to go with one of the two common house rules it works finer

chilly cedar
#

Oh yeah

#

No boffin has its issues too

#

Like big ones

#

I think it's a good interactions on its own but yeah it's very difficult to script well

frigid flower
weak ingot
#

deathglare wraith:

coral jungle
frigid flower
#

Gotta put it with a lot of bs non waking roles on script

unborn trellis
frigid flower
#

😔

forest spindle
#

3/22 Riot riot X Knight knight

weak ingot
#

meh

#

i mean it's alright

#

they usually want similar things

#

but vacuum? meh

real heron
#

In a vacuum they feel kind of actively feels bad cause you can mechanically just show the knight two minions and then it’s just kind of awful

And cause of that possibility, unless you’re giving the knight a double steward ping it’s kind of just bad (though double steward ping is wild too)

chilly cedar
#

This is an interaction which scales poorly

#

if you're spending day 1 & day 2 executing "not riot" you are more likely to win

#

But 7 player knight pings are way better than 12 player

steady kernel
#

Not the worst Knight interaction imo since it is still useful information for the first two days

But yeah, once the Riot begins, it makes the information largely worthless

fringe mirage
#

3/23: Zealot zealot x Organ Grinder organ_grinder

weak ingot
#

#MakeZealotScary

#

I wholeheartedly approve

#

It's more of an expert interaction but the good team ought to play around it

chilly cedar
#

Eh

chilly cedar
#

Butler and Zealot affects votes, and aren't hugely impactful

#

But their effects are hard to evaluate

#

I don't think you need a specific character to make zealot scary

#

Some Outsiders are scarier than others and that's fine

boreal nest
#

Butler is scary because you might have 1 less vote as the good team

chilly cedar
#

Yeah

#

Zealot and butler have a pretty mild mechanical effect

#

They aren't saints, Puzzlemaster or hatter

#

I think they're fine standalone characters which don't need to be "more scary"

#

I do like that organ grinder hides zealots though

fringe mirage
real heron
#

I headcanon as homescript

#

And have zero frame of reference for that

#

Not even specs and spoilers cause I avidly avoid them

subtle wolf
chilly cedar
#

Yeah and it's FUN

subtle wolf
#

This interaction also covers the awkward situation where a Zealot doesn’t vote, and the ST can’t do anything in the moment because it would confirm the Zealot. Here, the ST just counts the Zealot’s vote anyway, then confronts them privately too.

coral jungle
#

Anyway, this interaction is cool, and it makes zealot way more bluffable. Overall a fun interaction... is what I WOULD say, but it's a zealot interaction and fuck the zealot. Since that's the case, here is my summing up of the interaction: use butler it's better.

#

Speaking of which, butler x organ_grinder? Peak.

subtle wolf
chilly cedar
#

03/24: Xaan xaan x Snitch snitch

frigid flower
#

Fun way to know it is xaan 2

#

Or xaan 3

chilly cedar
#

by that you mean? ah the snitch gives how many out of play outsiders as bluffs?

frigid flower
#

Yeah

chilly cedar
#

i didn't even think of that. I was more thinking it's cool becuase snitch can give outsiders as bluffs to the xaan to muddle xaan numbers

#

And if snitch isn't in play, the xaan knows they can just claim snitch

#

and muddle xaan numbers

frigid flower
#

Peak interaction i mean, very cool!

#

Friendly Invitations ITS PEAK

#

It features these two!

chilly cedar
#

yess

#

also ride the cyclone

frigid flower
#

It too!

subtle wolf
#

This is the most important aspect of the interaction

real heron
#

The issue is still that it includes Snitch so the player with the snitch token is kind of uninterested, but hey

I like snitch + hermit and Xaan/Hermit is also peak

subtle wolf
real heron
#

If you’re dealing with arbitrary outsider modification (hermit), you may as well have more (xaan)

#

It’s more a matter of having a self-removing hermit not being as odd for the evil team

short crystal
#

03/25: Leviathan leviathan x Vizier vizier

-# the Vizier may or may not be silent

still sedge
#

good and valid

#

no more random noms

#

vizier has an ability

real heron
#

Don’t put it with flowergirl. I think it’s good to make Vizier interesting and this is def one way to do it

frigid flower
#

Yet to see this combo

#

In a script

still sedge
#

Oh it’s also good with heretic

forest spindle
boreal nest
forest spindle
#

Issue i have with this interaction is in 1 minion games theres pretty much no reason misinfo or o-mod

short crystal
#

and if the good team has executed one good player already, you revealing yourself by forcing execution also ends the game

forest spindle
#

Silent vizier might be cool

#

Its not anything i have any experience with

short crystal
#

imo it creates an interesting tradeoff when using your ability between

  1. Wasting an execution by revealing yourself
  2. Lowering the possibility space/misinfo space like you said

and both sides of this hold a lot more stake in Leviathan

forest spindle
#

It might be interesting with knaves to reduce the drawback

short crystal
#

I’m so glad you said that bc that’s the script I was thinking abt this for

still sedge
#

Vizier doesn’t solve this unless it’s quiet

unborn trellis
#

Obviously the issue is you lose to mechanical solves

#

Oof

#

Vizier moment

#

Otherwise it kinda sucks

#

Comparing this 7221 to 5211

#

You have 2 more townsfolks and a…active vizier ability

#

The vizier player barely count as a player

#

😭

#

Anyway my issue is it doesn’t synergize with things that can make vizier demon

#

Like imp pithag lm

#

And eh vizier without a synergy just sucks

subtle wolf
#

What’s the interaction here

still sedge
#

Vizier exes on good players proc the levi wincon

#

This makes it stronger

unborn trellis
#

Vizier exe on good player proc any demon wincon

subtle wolf
#

So town collectively decides ahead of time who to vote on, and Vizier has no power. After that process, a player who votes on someone not chosen is outing evil or is a good player single-handedly losing for their team

#

Town has plenty of time to figure out the execution beforehand because nothing happens in a Levi game

#

So if town coordinates well, vizier is literally a detriment to evil because their power is worthless and they’re a public minion. But if town has one dude who votes against town’s decision, vizier dominates. Neither outcome seems fun

still sedge
#

Vizier domination is fine

short crystal
#

i do think in most levi games, the late game executions aren't 100% figured out or agreed upon even after days of discussion

grand token
#

is there even any reason why tpi didnt make vizier silent and not fully announced

#

ive never played a good vizier script but ive never seen the theoretical merit of it being such a loud minion

steel kestrel
#

it’s the intent of the character to be loud and out there

#

I do think it tends to be stronger quieter, as shown with the alsaahir & investigator jinxes. but it is just vizier’s deal to be loud, typically

grand token
#

i mean its a loud minion regardless if its "silent" along the same lines as psycho/goblin

#

announcing at the start of the game kinda kills it as a minion for me

#

same as levi where it just makes it so it just doesnt work well on any scripts with multiple of the evil chartypes

#

i just dont see why it was designed the way it was at all when looking at psycho for example

#

psycho just feels like a better designed vizier to me aside from niche exe interactions

short crystal
#

within the context of leviathan, vizier is much more suitable than psycho

#

but yeah im curious why psycho reveals on activation while vizier is just revealed from the start

subtle wolf
short crystal
#

i mean that the info landscape of levi means that players don't usually all agree on which execution ahead of time

subtle wolf
#

What characterizes an info landscape of Levi? Levi has no effect on info.

unborn trellis
#

I mean if town cannot agree on something with an outed evil from the start

#

Hmm….

#

A vanilla unjinxed non alchemist vizier let town have a lot more info than in other games

#

It does something but I doubt it does more here than in a normal game

#

Leviathan doesn’t let vizier have the options of becoming a demon

#

And a vizier who’s locked in as vizier whole game just cannot do much

subtle wolf
#

Town doesn't have a choice but to fully plan the execution ahead of time. This isn't a mere preference or some overly sophisticated strat to optimize play: the good team will almost certainly lose if they organically decide who to execute during noms like they normally do

subtle wolf
#

03/26: Farmerfarmer x Drunkdrunk

obsidian trout
#

Me when I tell the drunk they turned into the farmer when the vigor kills a minion

grand token
#

phenomenal interaction/combo in most cases imo, farmer often ends up feeling a bit 1-d in bags and gameplay which this helps

subtle wolf
# subtle wolf # 03/26: Farmer<:farmer:806681077074755604> x Drunk<:drunk:586693970420301836>

I can't resist immediately explaining why I consider this a top-tier interaction.

(1) The Drunk thinks they're a Farmer. When they die at night, nobody will become a Farmer and they'll realize they're the Drunk, which is helpful for worldbuilding. Evils might catch onto this and fill the gap, pretending to extend the Farmer chain. Evils that die at night (Vigor minions, Fang Gu) can also bluff Drunk Farmer so the real in-game Drunk trusts their info.

(2) The Drunk becomes a Farmer after a Farmer dies. Whatever garbage info came from the Drunk is shared more openly and is more trusted. However, the Drunk ability can no longer damage town. This choice of Farmer chain could benefit either team, depending on circumstance.

(3) The Drunk is woken and told they became a Farmer, but they remain the Drunk. There are several applications for this chicanery. On Caravan, a Farmer next to No Dashii doesn't create a new Farmer, but you can hide No Dashii by waking the Drunk. You might also lie to the Drunk on the same night a Farmer chain is spreading elsewhere; this results in a Farmer double-claim, which might cause confusion, draw attention away from the demon, and/or help town solve for Drunk. Furthermore, since evils can already double-claim when they kill into a Farmer chain late-game, they are even more encouraged to do so, since the double-claim might just be a Drunk, not necessarily an outing evil player. Thus, actual Farmer chains have reason to stay quiet, not publicly announcing their confirmation.

short crystal
#

03/27: Lunatic lunatic x Boffin boffin

#

im thinking abt this specifically through the lens of 'is it useful for the lunatic to be told they have a boffin ability, and can it be bluffed long-term', tho other avenues are ofc fine

unborn trellis
#

It cannot be bluffed rlly

#

Evil have to guess whether lunatic learnt boffin ability

#

And it’s completely no tell

short crystal
#

what abt grimpeekers

real heron
#

I think telling a lunatic they have a Boffin is… fine

It kind of makes it more likely for the lunatic to realise they’re the lunatic later in the game, but it can help at the start (since the meta of ‘oh, I have a Boffin ability so surely I’m the real demon’)

It also heavily depends on stuff like poppy/mario/magician and how much the lunatic can talk to their ‘minions’. But that’s mostly just cause usual lunatic stuff

A Boffin can technically give the lunatic ability, but I don’t think it’s usually much more useful than something like a chambermaid when it comes to flipping a goon (and otherwise had zero impact in the game)

#

There is the alchemist/recluse/Boffin thing but I generally don’t feel the greatest about it. It sounds like if you intend for it to work on a script, it could be cool though

I’d imagine it would be the recluse n1 learns that they are the demon etc, rather than a recluse blindly having a demon token (so it’s along the same lines as philo-lunatic in terms of hindering evil)

grand token
#

ive always interpreted that you could

#

ive seen it ran that way and its pretty cool. otherwise, its not a particularly impactful interaction if you give a boffin a functional role that just does nothing

forest spindle
# short crystal what abt grimpeekers

Its tricky to have boffin and grim peekers do different things, especially since the lunatic can figure out pretty quick if their mechanical ability doesnt work

short crystal
short crystal
#

wdym by its difficult to have boffin and grimpeekers do diff things

forest spindle
#

If boffin provides an information ability its just a weaker minion than the peekers that knows the entire grim and can cause misinformation

#

but if lunatic figures out theyre the lunatic cause their nightwatchman ability didnt trigger who cares - lunatic usually finds out and thats fine

tawny haven
short crystal
#

ah that’s a fun niche

steel kestrel
#

and if you have it on script with poppy grower

#

boffin-lunatic-ojo choose the minions

#

see which ones you get names for! :D

tawny haven
boreal nest
#

Boffin lunatic on a recluse

#

Les go

short crystal
#

that’s kind of hilarious actually

shadow cradle
#

Let them think they are the zombuul and then keep waking them even if they’re already dead

subtle wolf
#

Am I understanding this interaction correctly?

short crystal
#

the idea is what could be added to this interaction to make it work

real heron
# subtle wolf Am I understanding this interaction correctly?

Well yes but no

A lunatic talking to their minions is likely going to learn they’re the lunatic anyway, so that part doesn’t particularly matter too much. It’s more a matter of how feeding a lunatic fake info may help/hinder it believing it’s the demon up til the point where it talks to its minions properly

#

I think it can work if you have magician or poppy, and/or mario on script (mario dependent on player count)

kind berry
grand token
#

magician can be added onto a script for a more nuanced interaction with lunatic in general also, but i know some are not a fan of magician as a character

#

even just making the lunatic hallucinate magicians would work to help against it being so easy to find

#

but imo lunatic rly has no place on scripts without either bmr crazy style death or arbitrary death demons so

short crystal
#

or no death demons

unborn trellis
#

Giving lunatics fake boffin ability just means minions or evils should never try to fool lunatic now

#

Like literally never ever

#

Because before they can still vibe who lunatic saw as minion a bit

#

But there’s no way they guess whether they saw boffin or not

#

So I’m not a big fan of this

#

I mean also it’s not realistic to ask lunatic never talk to their minions without magician or poppy

wary solstice
#

It could be made more palatable if the Boffin ability is used to torment the Lunatic rather than 'help them as a Demon'. If Alchemist was on the script too, then it could be plausible that there's an Alchemist-Boffin giving the Lunatic a negative ability, and no one might be claiming Alchemist-Boffin due to hiding.

#

Like a false promise from the ST.

unborn trellis
#

It’s not legal to give lunatic actual ability no?

#

Oh wait ic

wary solstice
#

As in actually? Yeah, no; to clarify, some ability falsely where the Lunatic fears it might be real

#

Such as, perhaps, Mutant.

unborn trellis
#

Yeah but it really doesn’t do much here
You shouldn’t be claiming lunatic without locking in you’re lunatic anyway

wary solstice
#

Probably still requires other stuff for the Lunatic to be unsure, such as Poppygrower though

unborn trellis
#

Hmm

#

I mean actually no

wary solstice
#

Butler or Zealot would force the Lunatic to act along with it, since even if they work out they're the Lunatic, they're obliged to follow along so long as they believe they have those abilities.

unborn trellis
#

Fr

#

This is genuinely so stupid

#

It works but

wary solstice
#

Fair, just looking for ways to make it more palatable

unborn trellis
#

Maybe it’s time to make a script where lunatic just acts as hermit-

#

They have butler, zealot or half golem ability each day

wary solstice
#

Lunatic believing they have an Alchemist-Boffin-Amnesiac could be told all sorts of nonsense with their 'Amnesiac ability' that is 'harming them'

unborn trellis
subtle wolf
#

03/28: Lleechlleech x Goblingoblin

unborn trellis
#

It’s meh

#

Well the lieech host won’t claim goblin

#

But lieech hosting goblin is cool

#

But lieech doesn’t know who’s goblin

#

There is the play to host a minion in 2-3 minion game and minions goblin pile

#

But it’s probably the weakest form of it

#

Bc it requires commitment n1 with no knowledge of who is which minion

#

The chance of “there is a goblin” and “host a non goblin” both happening isn’t rlly worth it

jaunty tapir
#

Yeah I think it's a poor interaction, lleeches are already okay with being executed (though it's not preferred) so the main method of a demon's excuse to not be executed doesn't really provide nearly as much. I think goblin is most interesting because of its power as just a threat and not even in play, and when the lleech is in play the flagbearer (person who the good team needs to kill) won't claim goblin and so your script presence paranoia doesn't ever amount to anything

weak ingot
#

eh if you need both you need both, but i can't ever imagine a situation where you need both

real heron
forest spindle
#

I think there can be some utility in claiming goblin as lleech if you want to prevent good from figuring that youre the lleech and that it is for sure a lleech game.

Though its not ideal I think its probably the best demon survival option for lleech.

Scarlet woman can win for evil in final 5 if the lleech host is executed. Before final 5 if youre executed you have to play as an inactive outed evil

Mastermind requires a bmr like game and has a weird djinx

Barber in the middle of the game makes it unsolveable whos lleech and whos hosted

Same for pit hag - is there even a lleech anymore?

real heron
#

Well, goblin kind of doesn’t want too much demon mobility at the concern of being unsolvable, so in that regard, they can work together

My take is more a matter of most other types of characters (demon finders, character detectors, other things that work for goblin) generally don’t work with Lleech that much cause as soon as the Lleech is outed, the demon finders are blank tokens and aren’t very fun

wary solstice
#

If the host is executed, the Lleech then dies, and the game is over

real heron
#

The ordering is now different, yeah

#

The Lleech detects if the host is dead for it to die. At which point, the SW ability is now inactive (ie, 5->4 players from the host being dead)

forest spindle
#

Oh did they fix that?

subtle wolf
wary solstice
#

Apparently that's how it was always suppose to be.

real heron
wary solstice
real heron
#

I also don’t like snarmer generally, since it’s usually scripted without care like 90% of the time (and with lleech can result in unsolvable game states or quick host exe’s)

unborn trellis
#

Demon finders work with lieech ok

#

I mean executing lieech is a journey to take still

wary solstice
#

But yeah, on Lleech + SW in final 5, procedurally, if the host is executed, they die and there's now a momentary game state where the Lleech is alive, their host is dead, and there's 4 alive.

Lleech ability checks and sees "WAIT A GOSH DARN SEC- MY HOST IS DEAD!!" and promptly dies. Scarlet Woman sees their demon die, however there was only four alive when that happened, and so they do not become the demon.

Game is over, Good wins.

tawny haven
#

I think the Lleech and their host have to die simultaneously for the character to function at all

wary solstice
tawny haven
#

Just checked the writeup - it explicitly says they die simultaneously

image0.jpg
wary solstice
tawny haven
#

oh that's funky

#

Jams is the rules authority though, shrug

#

ty!

wary solstice
#

The HOW TO RUN also has a very weird thing for Lleech that I am pretty sure is an error (or just a "what typically happens")

If the Lleech would die but the player marked with the Lleech’s POISONED reminder is alive, the Lleech does not die. If the player marked with the Lleech’s POISONED reminder is dead, the Lleech dies *** and the good team wins. ***

Which seems very unintended outside of saying what typically happens, because if taken literally, Lleech + SW wouldn't even be a problem

tawny haven
#

Almanacs aren't meant to cover every case - I think this is also a thing with the LM almanac

wary solstice
#

It's from the HOW TO RUN, but yeah, that's awkwardly written

tawny haven
#

The player marked IS THE DEMON registers as the Demon. If they die, declare that the game is over and good has won.

from the LM HtR

wary solstice
#

-# TBF, that would resolve a number of issues with LM and roles like Saint, Goblin, etc if it did just have that.

#

The weird thing with timing and the Lleech also did come up with Dullahan under the Willows. Lleech with the Alchemist-Vizier ability in final 3 is weird.

#

The fact that there is a small gap between execution and the night phase beginning making Evil auto win in Lleech, Boffin (Alchemist-Vizier), host an auto Evil win.

boreal nest
#

But yeah

#

Dont

#

Lleech is already quite weak

subtle wolf
subtle wolf
#

Though you are right about Exorcist finding out they’re the host

still sedge
wary solstice
humble lantern
humble lantern
#

wake up sheeple

subtle wolf
#

03/29 Al-Hadikhiaal_hadikhia x Goongoon

Now that Alan can choose not to attack, does this pair work on the right script?

#

The Goon works best with several characters that can change his alignment back and forth. Al-Hadikhia meets this demand best. If scripted with other reasons for a silent night (what would those be?), Alan can safely choose the Goon and turn them evil

#

I also wonder if there are shenanigans with reviving a dead, outed good Goon and trying to turn them evil

short crystal
#

doesn't the Al-Hadikhia have to specifically choose the Goon first for this to happen

#

and if the Al-Had chooses the Goon second, the third isn't announced and everyone knows who the goon is

subtle wolf
#

The Alan How-To-Run specifies that all three choices are made before each target is successively woken

still sedge
#

so it's possibly suboptimal

#

(because they can just, not pick live)

short crystal
forest spindle
#

03/30 Shugenja shugenja X Noble noble

real heron
#

They kind of do overlapping things and can lead to much stronger info than otherwise (which means the very strong shug is resulting in even more actionable info)

#

So it’s a TB-esque setup and kind of deserves enough droison to make it less powerful (ie, poisoner, drunk, etc)

grand token
#

A shug+noble ping can be disastrous and basically hard confirm who the 2 evil players are on the first day, since the noble can often rule out possibilities of the shug ping and restrict its area especially as the game continues. def powerful and should be combined with ample misinfo if you plan on putting them in the same bag

subtle wolf
unborn trellis
#

But they do sit at a very close level of info strength

#

Usually if 1 works on a script the other one also works as well

#

This also include seamstress

frigid flower
#

Bitter End intectation

unborn trellis
#

It’s as good an interaction as steward knight…

#

The best thing about them is they get on the same scripts without interacting, only because they’re similar enough

weak ingot
real heron
#

Yeah that’s true

weak ingot
#

Same with Shug but less so

#

Preferably you do this with Drunk instead

real heron
#

Maybe poisoner was a wrong example of a bunch of droison

#

But noble/shug can def be quite strong

weak ingot
#

i would argue Xaan and No Dashii are a better example

#

but otherwise i agree that usually this interaction is too strong

sudden drift
#

why are noble/shug bad with moving poison? is the same true for, like, chef?

#

tbh, other than exactly TB, I don't know what's good with Poisoner

weak ingot
#

Noble info is inherently very inactionable

#

which is rather annoying to worldbuild with when Poisoner is a possibility

#

the info is too specific to be of any use when moving droison exists

#

TB 1 of 2 people YSKs are very actionable info and Chef is also relatively useful and easy to build Poisoner

#

since building Chef poisoned basically means Chef wrong number

#

and that's good to know

#

but poisoned Noble doesn't really have any luxury of that whatsoever

#

Poisoner sucks with Steward and Knight because the information is already very weak and moving droison will not help anything

#

this is also why Shugenja isn't a good moving droison YSK, the information is weak

#

by order of weakest i believe it generally goes Knight → Steward → Shugenja

#

Knight gets bumped up on lower player counts

fervent basalt
#

i tend to find steward to be the weakest personally