Character interaction thingy

[fringe mirage]

But you do also need to have smart rest of minions slots

[green fiber]

kinda fun w lunatic ngl

[real heron]

I think it’s interesting in a similar way the monk is interesting but the Monk is probably more usable on scripts that like wraith

[unborn trellis]

One case where wraith is better than grimpeekers big time

[subtle wolf]

Not much to say. If Wraith gets away with peeking at Exorcist, evil can frame certain good players or kill off Exo choices. If Wraith can’t peek without being caught, it’s a non-interaction.

[tawny haven]

I think Wraith is a bit more interesting with Monk/Innkeeper than Exorcist? But it's not nothing

[magic ferry]

yeah, Wraith can't avoid the Exorcist preventing deaths, but it can avoid a Monk/Innkeeper preventing deaths, so Monk/IK are just better for this

[winter bobcat]

OK so part of my thought with this is exorcist keeps demon from waking, which at smaller player counts can keep the wraith from being forced to wake for stuff like chambermaid

[tawny haven]

They'd still be forced to wake with the Demon to learn the Exorcist selected them

[winter bobcat]

Does wraith waking for that ping chambermaid?

[coral jungle]

Yep. But the wraith always wakes.

[cloud sentinel]

Yag

[coral jungle]

Almost always.

[fervent basalt]

[2/27]: Hermit x Ogre

• for obvious reasons, having both in play at once is usually not a good idea - does this issue extend to having the two on-script together?
• is a hermit-ogre with other outsider abilities fun, and if so which ones does it work/not work with?

[cloud sentinel]

[fervent basalt]

I could imagine that working on some theoretical script (but one authored by someone smarter than me 😂)

[chilly cedar]

heh

[sly horizon]

How about Hermit x Ogre 👹 x Recluse for maximum theme and ogre opacity?
as a fourth, maybe something to deter their death... like hatter, sweetheart... or even cuz they couldn't chose their friend confidently?

[obsidian trout]

I mean

If someone claims hermit with ogre and klutz and doesnt pick their acclaimed friend that friend getting executed lmao

[still sedge]

who claims ogre to non-friends

(actually, why shouldn't the ogre just claim klutz)

[obsidian trout]

I mean you can

Then theres a real klutz

And then u cry

[still sedge]

it's hermit

[obsidian trout]

What about it

[still sedge]

me when -1 outsider

[obsidian trout]

That wont always happen

[still sedge]

I mean what

1/12 chance? I like those odds

and that's assuming 2 outsiders

[still sedge]

(yes it's supposed to be 75% of the time)

also if the ogre is evil, (you don't have to kill them as evil)

shocker

[sly horizon]

I meant that the dilemma was for themselves. Supposing their friend claimed good to them, but they are not quite convinced if their friend is good because of trust issues on either side, they could want to hide who their friend is and not out them.

[shadow cradle]

ogre hermit damsel gives the hermit-damsel a friend who they can trust :)

[unborn trellis]

If something's bad both in play, they're often bad both on script

that is, unless the script functions in the premise that they won't both be in play

[kind berry]

[28/2] Cerenovus x Heretic

[coral jungle]

Hilarious and amazing and objectively very bad.

[obsidian trout]

Yeah the thing about heretic is you kinda just lie until f3 and then out

Which introduces some problems when cere is on the script

[still sedge]

This is a good thing

Screw you stop being a coward(heretics should need to out before f3)

[obsidian trout]

If you out heresy before f3 you just lose?

At least

If you are telling the truth

And they believe you

[still sedge]

tell a good player

if wrong you lose yeah that's a good thing

(have a klutz pick)

[obsidian trout]

I guess

[still sedge]

Good should accidentally be able to kill the demon on heretic scripts

actually yeah this interaction is objectively good

it counters coinflip heretic

so

it's good

[coral jungle]

By making it "evil wins" heretic

If anything, it actually makes it even more of a coin flip since you have to do the dance. Here are the possibilities.

[still sedge]

literally find 1 good player

not hard

[coral jungle]

No heretic claim:
Either there is no heretic OR the heretic is cere-mad.

[still sedge]

they should've outed to someone earlier.

I'm sorry that's on them

and anyway break madness

[coral jungle]

Yes heretic claim:
Either the "heretic" is a mad player OR it's an evil OR it's real

[coral jungle]

Its final 3

You lose

[still sedge]

so the cerenovus picked a dead player

they didn't know was heretic

instead of the alive player?

I have doubts

it doesn't even help evil win

[coral jungle]

Yes actually, I'd totally fish for a suspected heretic that late

It does, a lot, and I just explained why

[still sedge]

"let's stop the heretic from outing and... lose because we got our demon not exed"

if you knew if they were heretic... you could've killed yourself

[coral jungle]

This interaction makes a heretic from a social read to a roll of the dice.

[still sedge]

info exists

[coral jungle]

From an info game to a roll of the dice.

[still sedge]

again the counter strat is quite literally

out before f3 to someone

which should happen anyway

[coral jungle]

That's when you make someone cere-mad before f3. Here we go again.

[still sedge]

ok so evil is cerelocking a player the entire game, they're specifically the heretic, and they'll never break madness, and evil knows they're the heretic????

[coral jungle]

No, you just make a player mad as heretic early

See? Out before f3!

[still sedge]

least effective ceremadness

Making someone mad as heretic in f3 was what I was referring to as "a good idea"

because it means you have to

out to someone early

but being mad as heretic in town square is actually the least believeable bluff ever, so it's not viable before then

all you have to do is tell a trusted good player you're heretic, and if they're not evil, life gets a lot easier

[coral jungle]

Cere exacerbates a ton of problems with heretic as a character by creating a extremely difficult social environment where nobody knows how to win in any way shape or form. Normal heretic is usually enough for this. Adding in cere increases these worlds exponentially.

[still sedge]

nobody knows how to win because the heretic is allowed to sit back and lie to everyone

because either Town is too weak to find a demon before f3, or evil has too many safety nets

[coral jungle]

That's how you play heretic without losing.

[coral jungle]

That's literally what an ST should be fighting for.

[still sedge]

If town is gonna exe the demon, you're too late

so you need to out earlier

[coral jungle]

You lose

[still sedge]

to

1

player

I'm not suggesting out to the square

[coral jungle]

If you out early, the demon kills themselves.

[still sedge]

1 player

find a good player

that's what info is for

[coral jungle]

Even to one player, good luck finding any trustworthy

[still sedge]

if the script can find demons fast, you can find good players fast

also minion activity exists, maybe it's just "the first exe"

[coral jungle]

Ok fine, out to one player. Sure. Make someone mad as the heretic and they'll do it for you

Or be evil and do it

[still sedge]

they have to be mad to everyone

[coral jungle]

Execution

[still sedge]

that's a good thing!

[coral jungle]

I know. Cere increases the worlds too much!

[still sedge]

yeah no I don't know an ST who is executing on un-tenable ceremadness

[fervent basalt]

tbf with this interaction you can just (up to vigormortis/plague doctor) kill the cerenovus before final 3

[still sedge]

No one is mad to town they're a heretic on a good day

[coral jungle]

You don't need to out in town square to fulfill cere madness.

[still sedge]

considering that looks like "not claiming" which is a break

[coral jungle]

Claim it to people you trust quietly and you're not breaking

You know, like you said a heretic should

[still sedge]

this assumes the ST is omniscient

they aren't... I don't think I know an ST who is going to be executing heretic-mad players because it's like making someone mad as the mutant

quite literally looks like "shut up"

[coral jungle]

Or vaguely listening to conversations.

[still sedge]

Me when I don't hear the 1 specific convo where someone claimed heretic(I was in the hallway and they whispered it quietly)

because that's what adhering looks like if you really want to convincingly do it

[coral jungle]

Anyway, this is a bad interaction and I won't be convinced otherwise.

[still sedge]

don't exe on mutant madnesses? they claimed mutant

same shit applies here

[coral jungle]

Because its hilarious but very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very swingy and coin flippy.

[still sedge]

it's not even that coin flippy

[coral jungle]

It's more than normal heretic.

[still sedge]

literally don't exe people mad as heretic

if they're claiming heretic publicly

then evil will figure out it's a really bad idea

and stop doing it

[coral jungle]

I'm sorry but that's a madness break.

Unless it's f3

Maybe I don't kill. But only if it doesn't benefit evil as much.

[still sedge]

genuinely, do you exe every person mad as mutant in town

because this is the same kind of thing

[coral jungle]

Mutant is one thing. Heretic is a losscon.

[still sedge]

Mutants don't out 99.999% of the time

and yet they have to to not die

it's their best case scenario

[coral jungle]

I have no idea what that means but what I think it means is false.

[still sedge]

Mutants don't out past like

d1

ever

unless they died

[coral jungle]

Yeah. And?

[still sedge]

heretics don't out before f3?

publicly?

ever?

[coral jungle]

Nope

[still sedge]

and yet you wouldn't kill the person mad as mutant for that

but you would kill the heretic mad player?

[coral jungle]

I would because one of these is a losscon and the other is not

Also mutants do out late

[still sedge]

and die for it and ... lose

[coral jungle]

One of these is a soft break and the other is not.

[still sedge]

what else are you gonna do? Oh right john I'm still the innkeeper(break)

[coral jungle]

No, not really?

[still sedge]

and then claim heretic to someone else

or you do 1 singular chat the entire day

[coral jungle]

Unfortunately, yes

Pretty much

Outing publicly will convince nobody

[still sedge]

yeah I'm sorry I'm not exeing a heretic mad player ever

[coral jungle]

And imply you are mad

[still sedge]

because you have to break to at least 1 person no matter what

[coral jungle]

I'm going to be lenient with it

But don't f**ing out publicly.

[still sedge]

I mean, I'll let evil go for the weird "just shut up" option

I'll kill you if you claim a different role

but like

your situation is ass

[coral jungle]

See why we have difficulties with this sort of thing?

See why I say this interaction is bad?

[still sedge]

It's a stupid strategy because I know other STs would run it this way too

because that's the most intuitive way

just claim the role

preferably give info

[coral jungle]

Eh whatever. There's also the trouble with making a dead player mad as heretic f3.

[still sedge]

I'm lowkey less annoyed by that because a cerenovus ability must be active

in f3

[coral jungle]

Ok fair, but it's still a possibility like the lleech randomly hosting the sailor.

[still sedge]

as in you can solve for that

[coral jungle]

Or the choirboy randomly being kaz picked.

Or the king randomly being kaz picked.

Or the demon randomly barber swapping themselves with the politician.

[still sedge]

"Oh I'm not ceremad in f3 and it's certainly a cerenovus game? And 2 evils live? That heretic probably isn't real."

[coral jungle]

And what if it is?

What if the cere is just the person you killed last?

Or they're framing someone as the person you killed last

[still sedge]

no-one is ceremad

solve that world kill

[coral jungle]

But you don't know that!

[still sedge]

the heretic is ceremad

solve that world kill

[coral jungle]

For all you know, the dead heretic claim is fake cered

[still sedge]

if you do it right you can kill 1 player

[coral jungle]

Or they're just real!

Its final 3. Good luck!

[still sedge]

One simply can have balloonist info on them

it's shrimple that's what info is for in fairness

[coral jungle]

And if the balloonist is droisoned or evil?

[still sedge]

so it's clocktower

[coral jungle]

So it's an incomprehensible f3

[still sedge]

also yeah the point of my theory is barely any droison

[coral jungle]

You don't know whos evil, who's the heretic, if there is a heretic, etc.

[still sedge]

It's supposed to be wildly too solvable

but heretic

so you might not

be able to do that well

[sudden drift]

if you don't know who's evil then yeah you're gonna lose in f3

[coral jungle]

That's stupidly goodsided and you know it.

[still sedge]

fake heretics

[coral jungle]

I mean, you have theories obviously.

[coral jungle]

One could simply have balloonist info on them.

[still sedge]

indeed

[coral jungle]

Outsider heretic townsfolk? Fake

[still sedge]

who needs 2 outsiders in a row

TF heretic TF

^cooler this way

imma build this script now

[coral jungle]

I mean, any fake heretic has evil pings on them. And any real one doesn't

Plain and simple

[still sedge]

I think I'll do typhon ojo

[coral jungle]

Maybe cere could work now. If and only if it's in play and in f3.

[coral jungle]

Those are both terrible with heretic still

[still sedge]

one could build worlds where that's the case or add like

vigor

[still sedge]

ok Ojo heretic is lowkey fine

simply bluff super hard

[coral jungle]

Ok yeah, ojo is fine

Typhon though is not.

[still sedge]

Typhon is...

eh

[coral jungle]

I mean, it's similar to fang gu in this regard

[still sedge]

No more heretic(nom nom)

[coral jungle]

But also typhon doesn't like this script because of all the pings

And if it's clearly a cow game and the heretics on the other side...

[still sedge]

this script might lowkey be a little fucked up

ok hmmm how do I add the right outsiders here....

golem....

ok yeah no i can make this work

[sudden drift]

the only good +outsider mod is like
kazali or boffin-balloonist

[still sedge]

boffin balloonist it is

and boffin huntsman

[still sedge]

using lil monsta instead

I think this is stacked against evil enough to be viable

with the addition of wizard

and y'know, the bs machine

should be fine

sorry lemon

[sudden drift]

I started trying to make a script too but then realized I was just recreating Dusk

[still sedge]

actually

doesn't dusk have cere

[sudden drift]

it used to? but it disproves legion so it's bad with legion

[still sedge]

unless legion does the

funny strat

so actually if you votefail on a player with the alternative ruleset

[sudden drift]

oh can you make that look like a last-second madness execution

[still sedge]

yeah

[sudden drift]

that's hilarious

[boreal nest]

Ehh, legion can fake being mad

But yeah if you are good you will know its not legion if you are mad

But thats half the battle if cere is smart with who they mad

[unborn trellis]

Well cere explode deconfirm legion

[obsidian trout]

A legion votefail looks identical to a cere explosion if the st executes the ceremad player at end of day

[unborn trellis]

It requires the ceremad player to be on the block

Bc legion votefail can’t just result in a random player being executed

[obsidian trout]

Presumably the person who dies as a result of a votefail is legion

Who can just claim ceremadness

[unborn trellis]

But they can’t claim having enough votes on them

If a person not on block explodes it just deconfirm legion

Evil can’t do anything about that

[tawny haven]

I personally like this interaction but it is kinda thorny — being made ceremad in final 3 as the Heretic (or being the ceremad Heretic who didn't out to anyone) can be terrifying, but is something that town should reasonably have a handle on since the Cerenovus is a pretty loud Minion

wrt "but the Heretic can't out before final 3!" — Heretics can and should out to trusted players before final 3. Same with Damsels — Damsels get turned and win games by trustfalling to good players

[unborn trellis]

I would say heretic outing to good is harder

Bc the good players cannot just say “we avoid demon to f3”

Bc either you require a common meta of this being done regardless of heretic claims

Or this just tells demon a heretic is there

You need the good players to still appear to be going for the demon

But deliberately be wrong

Whereas damsel outing to good players let these players still play normally

[still sedge]

This is interesting and cool gameplay

You just need good to have the information

[forest spindle]

03 / 01 Widow x Politician

[tawny haven]

Giving the Poli a widow ping :)

Being the Widow and coordinating with the poli :)

[weak ingot]

poli and spidow is nice

widow ping poli... i'd say hard Maybe

Poli claiming Widow ping? Cinema

[subtle wolf]

This seems like a downside to the interaction. Poli who auto-learns evil team and helps them vote the whole game is lame

[spare hinge]

poli who auto-learns the evil team can literally out the Demon

[forest spindle]

I would argue Widow is more responsible for winning in that case. Also telling poli the entire team allows poli to win much more easily with good team

[tawny haven]

I'd argue that being the Poli for plays for evil the entire game and coordinates with them to execute Townsfolk only to not win with them feels awful

[weak ingot]

i'd say that's Widow being more responsible. i explicitly make this clear beforehand if both are on script

[forest spindle]

Its a good point though

[spare hinge]

just widowpoison the poli smh

[wary solstice]

When it comes to the Politician win condition, I would always consider the extent to which each player managed to push for their own goals and victory condition beyond what is inherently expected of them.

If you treat mere inherent expectations and accomplishments of such expectations as valid considerations for who is most responsible... the Demon is always* most responsible for the simple fact they didn't kill themself.

The Widow has some expectation that they will exploit their knowledge of the Grimoire to their advantage, and it's much more how they use it and what tricks they pull in accomplishing their goals, how effective were they beyond just having the capabilities and knowledge and instead how they used it. If the Widow chooses to recruit the Politician into their cause, the Politician here has all the information needed to win the game on the spot and instead pursued the harder route.

-# *Not counting edge cases like Leviathan or Pukka.

[late ingot]

Right, but this gets into the reasons that folks don't often out the Mez

[spare hinge]

add puzzlemaster :P

[late ingot]

I'm with Nick B here -- I think this can feel super awkward.

It's difficult to justify denying a Politician the win if they acted as a full extra evil for much of the game. Most responsible is weird wording for reasons that Quil stated above, and I can't imagine ever actually saying "sorry, you knew who the Demon was and helped them all game, but the Widow was responsible for telling you and deserves the credit here" -- that's getting me ticketed twenty billion times over.

And this means that, in most gamestates, Evil actually doesn't risk much by outing to a Politician. If you know the entire Evil team but still win should Good prevail, you don't have an incentive to out the Demon -- you already win by simply playing for Evil. Clocktower isn't a one-off game: you will likely play many, many games with these players in the future, and becoming "the player who outed the Demon" is really bad for you the next time you pull the token!

[subtle wolf]

Exactly!

Also, players who would betray evil and win with the good team will not be trusted by Widow over time. This is the same false dynamic as Mez, where people say “It’s a risk to out as Mez in case they don’t accept” but players who don’t accept the Mez word will never be approached again

Edit: oops, Amy already said everything I said🙈

[winter bobcat]

[3/2]: Preacher x Organ Grinder

[pure raft]

Role Not Found.

There are no jinxes between Riot and Preacher

Role Not Found.

[coral jungle]

Wonderful. Time to frame someone as the organ grinder!

[still sedge]

Confirmation chain by Preach? Sign me up

Very minstrel coded

[subtle wolf]

This seems to make Preacher even stronger than usual. I think it’s a negative interaction

[green fiber]

"preacher" and "stronger than usual" are not often used in the same sentence

also this interaction is good because it turns off the worst minion in the game

[subtle wolf]

Wdym?

[green fiber]

its generally not regarded as a strong character. I think its script dependent personally but when people ask me to think of the strongest TF in the game, preacher does not immediately come to mind

[subtle wolf]

Interesting! I assumed it was upper quartile strength

[green fiber]

the ability to turn off minion abilities is really strong, I think the main thing that limits it is the lack of feedback the preacher gets from their picks, so often they dont realize they've done anything until the grim reveal. that's why it pairs well with louder minions, as their continued presence can confirm something to a preacher.

this is just my personal thoughts on it tho

[subtle wolf]

Yea, it’s definitely stronger with loud minions. I love the dynamic with quiet minions, though: “X and Y can’t be the executed demon if A or B is the Scarlet Woman, because I preached them.” I figured this dynamic was balanced but I could be wrong

[weak ingot]

this is an interesting thing to say for Organ Grinder

i've heard all of “worst minion in the game” before

but Organ Grinder is a new one

[obsidian trout]

Mez worst minion?????

Who said that

[weak ingot]

one of my mates

mostly just citing the boring gameplay

[obsidian trout]

A minion can be strong but boring

[weak ingot]

i mean obviously

[obsidian trout]

Depends on the definition of worst I guess

[weak ingot]

but “worst” is subjective yeah

[obsidian trout]

Coda do you want me to say every minion is the worst minion

So that you can claim that youve heard someone say every minion is the worst

[weak ingot]

“ is the worst minion because the Mafia are lame”

[unborn trellis]

Imo worst minion in terms of strength and worst minion in terms of design is the same character

See steward is weak, but is ok in terms of design

[weak ingot]

(... isn't Knight weaker)

[unborn trellis]

But when a character is weak below a certain threshold the design is bogus now

[green fiber]

oh yeah i agree

i personally dislike OG more than any other minion when i’m playing against it

[cloud sentinel]

The interaction is super scary

kinda too, depends on the other onscript minions

[green fiber]

yeah cool secondary interaction but doesn’t make it up for me as a good player

[real heron]

Wait lmao some of those are crazy

[cloud sentinel]

I dont like any of those minions

Except Wiz

[real heron]

Poisoner and Mez are usually overpowering when making a script, rather than underpowered

[weak ingot]

Poisoner “worst” as in “unfun to play against”

Mez... i guess it's the same

[real heron]

Yeah I usually don’t like script building with them because I like a genuinely interesting puzzle rather than ‘eh, this is the best shot we have atp’

[weak ingot]

skull

[real heron]

Yeah it’s kinda boring if you aren’t whimsical

[boreal nest]

I think its fun to try to entice sone to join you and trying to find an actually useful townsfolk

How does this channel work! You can post any interaction?

[coral jungle]

Organ grinder is perfect and I will hear no dissent whatsoever.

[boreal nest]

Og is good cause it breaks down communication between good team in terms of voting, allows evil to vote as they please

[real heron]

Preferably, if you’re building a script or trying to evaluate an idea/existing interaction, this channel is a great way to crowd source opinions

At least that’s how I use it

[boreal nest]

Like yes its annoying to play against but its the point

[real heron]

It’s usually overly loud for most environments but it’s a great minion where it works

[boreal nest]

Opinion on king and leviathan? The jinx to be exact

[boreal nest]

It works best with minion who dont care for being foubd out as existing

Imo

[real heron]

This form of message is how to ask about an interaction. You can also search for if an interaction has already been asked for using the discord function

It’s only done on a daily basis

[boreal nest]

Ah, i see

Thx

[forest spindle]

Organ Grinder is so loud, it just outs an evil player and makes them lose their ability which isnt super fun. You can bluff other players as OG by removing your own ability but its a pretty costly bluff and not that fun either

[tawny haven]

good combo; encourages OGs to frame other people by turning the ability off

I've talked to delta about it so i'll just screencap the convo here

[coral jungle]

I love the organ grinder's off on ability and this adds another layer of depth to it. The ability to hide votes is powerful, but it's even cooler to turn it off midgame and then frame some poor sap. Then turn it on final 3 and watch those suckers panic.

[wooden knoll]

Real

Og underrated frfr

[frigid flower]

I remenber when Stars Edge used to have Organ Grinder, i remenber i ran a game of that version and good won

[kind berry]

From my experience, turning an inactive OG on in final 3 has a very big chance of backfire as it mechanically confirms that two evils are alive

[frigid flower]

Vigormortis on script

[kind berry]

(& immediatly disproves worlds where a dead player framed as OG would be the OG)

[frigid flower]

Nonononono

It had cerenovus too

Pearly gates i think it was

[tawny haven]

PG doesn't have an Organ Grinder

it's always been spy/witch/cere/scarlet

[steel kestrel]

poppy grower doesn't have an organ grinder

[tawny haven]

Star's Edge used to have a Cere

[frigid flower]

Stars edge used to be so different

[subtle wolf]

I think what y’all are missing is the OG ability to self-drunk and frame another player is not strong. It’s strategically inadvisable in most cases and it doesn’t actually confuse anyone, because everyone knows the two possibilities, which aren’t difficult to consider.

What you’re asking OG to do is self-drunk in hopes a Preacher is in play and has chosen goodies that can now be framed. Those conditions are tenuous, the goodies are not really framed, and pursuing that goal comes at the cost of the OG ability (essentially making it a blank token). This interaction is fun in theory and much less so in practice

[frigid flower]

We have to also wonder the possibility of an Imp jumping.

Oil Of Vitriol interaction that happends too

The organ grinder turned off because he is no longer the Organ Grinder

Now with that third option it loops back around to being cool

[subtle wolf]

In my opinion, the possibility of a starpass helps only marginally. I think OG is still disincentivized from self-drunking with Preacher on script. The trifecta ( ) is cool because of Imp/Preacher, which works with any minion, not because OG offers a serious, strategic third option. This is speculative, though

[real heron]

I think generally this is a feels bad interaction for the OG and that’s about it. A real preaching is rough and loud and it can def hurt evil more than other preachers

[unborn trellis]

OG doesn’t rlly frame anything by turning off

They just stop clearing things

[subtle wolf]

[3/3]: No Dashii x Drunk

[unborn trellis]

It's quite often to see this works badly

but realistically that's bc the script also contains godfather or baron

this works if you're in a nodashii script without nondemon positive omods

like, if nodashii gf Drunk is bad

it's bad bc nodashii gf and gf Drunk both are strong for evil

and 2 ehhs make 1 bad

[still sedge]

baron nodashii is kind of a crime

[unborn trellis]

The upside is, this helps concede nodashii poison

but the counterargument is eh

[still sedge]

too well

doesn't extension cord use PM instead

[unborn trellis]

why do you, eh, need to eh, have a alternative reason for players who know they're droisoned

this shouldn't be happening in the first case (usually)

[subtle wolf]

Caravan has and for Outsider mod, so works there, except perhaps at low player counts, where No Dashii dominates already

[unborn trellis]

yeah fang gu and nodashii doesn't both start in play

notably

[still sedge]

that's fine because you can just

not add drunk with balloonist

[unborn trellis]

put drunk, add another outsider

[still sedge]

same thing

[unborn trellis]

PM isn't quite better on this matter

i think it's also bc extension cord has sentinel

[still sedge]

true

[unborn trellis]

drunk + sentinel just means always assume drunk is in play

bc you can never say no to that

[subtle wolf]

In general, Drunk allows No Dashii poisoning to be more wild because a No Dashii-neighbor isn’t the only source of droison. This means No Dashii can now be scripted with mechanical townsfolk. (On Caravan, the Monk ability is not merely to protect others, but to self-locate the Drunk or a neighboring No Dashii by failing to save a targeted player. This would be a feelsbad interaction without the Drunk.)

I also like how both are completely hidden sources of droison (unlike puzzlemaster) and are easier to solve for than Poisoner droison or Sweetheart droison

[unborn trellis]

yeah i think whenever it's bad it's usually 2 ehhs make a bad

2 bads make a shit

not that it's bad itself individually

[subtle wolf]

You can comfortably worldbuild with both characters: “In a No Dashii game…” has a similar vibe to “If we have a Drunk…” and both feel more grounded than random poison snipes

I’m curious if people think is too difficult for the good team in an 8-player game

[spare hinge]

I don't think ND/Drunk is inherently a problem, but it requires extremely careful scriptbuilding both in terms of on-script omod as well as Outsider suite in a way where it might become increasingly challenging to write a script that holds water while still containing both characters

This is mainly because Drunk's optimal pairing is Baron and No Dashii loathes Baron

[tawny haven]

It's hard to scriptbuild these together in a fun way, since the O-mod can get a bit hairy

you can do, like, ND GF Drunk and it usually works out okay but you aren't doing GF+1 in a Dashii game and GF-1 has the potential to feel bad with a Drunk on the script (if your players are wimps)

The interaction itself is, like, fine? It's more the surrounding script that can cause issues if you aren't careful

[subtle wolf]

Why is Drunk’s optimal pairing Baron? Aren’t you just saying they have good synergy, but that Drunk has synergy with most things?

[spare hinge]

Drunk is more sensitive an Outsider than most people think in that it's the only truly silent Outsider in the game and that doesn't gel well with a lot of sources of omod.
The fact no one will ever definitively claim Drunk means worldbuilding always has to account for Drunk as a possibility, opening up hundreds of worlds at the hand of a single character.

TB circumvents this problem in a couple ways:

1. Trackability. There are several ways for good to locate a Drunk; Librarian can lock it down to three players, a failed Virgin proc can place a Drunk with the help of other confirmation, a Ravenkeeper can identify a Drunk...
2. Loud Outsiders. All other Outsiders on TB are not restricted from claiming in any way whatsoever. This makes verifying whether a Drunk is in play much easier: you find out if the Outsider claims are legit, you find out whether you have to build for a Drunk. This combines especially well with
3. the Baron. The Baron adding 2 Outsiders instead of just 1 means the amount of Outsider claims you get is always indicative of whether you have a Baron: In base 2; 1 claim means you have a Drunk, 2 claims means you either have a Drunk or an Outsider claim is lying and 3 claims means either you have a Baron and a Drunk or at least one Outsider claim is lying. Baron doesn't hard-restrict Drunk worlds but it limits them so that they are manageable without huge world bloat.

This is why basically every good Baron script has a Drunk and it's why a lot of good Drunk scripts have Baron. Drunk is less reliant on Baron than the other way around, but it still heavily benefits from its presence

[subtle wolf]

Thank you for breaking that down. I agree with all of it, but most of all, I agree that Baron needs Drunk more than Drunk needs Baron. It is feasible to construct a script where Drunk being in play is restricted to one or two sources of O-mod, is still somewhat traceable (Balloonist, Acrobat, Gambler), and/or where the good team is strong enough compared to evil that solving Drunk is not necessary and the hidden nature of Drunk balances the game

[shadow cradle]

I wouldn’t say that drunk is that necessary for a baron script, rather that baron is best with quite outsiders and there is no quieter outsider then the drunk

[weak ingot]

Baron needs Drunk in the way that it's tough to justify any other Omod

with Baron, you ideally need -1 negomod to allow for Outsider bluffs and frames in and without Baron, but there's not much that can do that. Vigormortis is not good for Vigormortis reasons, Godfather/Xaan/Sentinel is super redundant, Kazali and LoT don't count, and Hermit will always be a bit jank

Drunk is really our only good option

i think this works most well if it's solo no dashii?

just don't bag drunk in low counts

[shadow cradle]

Damsel, mutant, politician serve similar purposes. Also just double claim an outsider, that’s not the end of the world. None of these are as sleek as the drunk, but that doesn’t make the drunk essential for this purpose

[weak ingot]

to “just” DC an outsider? i heavily discourage this scripting mentality, since ideally on a script the players should be creative in what they do

if the only way to scrunch outsider count is to literally out a Seamstress no on two players that don't provide misinfo, that's not a “just”

Damsel and Politician serve similar purposes. i don't really like counting Mutant

but they're less reliable than they ought to be

Outsider count solve can be delayed as long as possible, when the Damsel dies you have no mod

I'd argue self-removing Hermit is actually the second best option

[shadow cradle]

If the damsel outs. they can decide to keep hidden and bait a minion

[weak ingot]

huh?

[fervent basalt]

I think vig is fine personally

[weak ingot]

i personally think Vig should deserve nicer things

[shadow cradle]

I agree that drunk is the most elegant solution but that doesn’t make it a necessity for a baron script

[weak ingot]

if you're adding vig you want misinfo anyway

there's just a swap of vaguely equal ideas, and Drunk is the nicer of the two

[shadow cradle]

Baron is a great minion to throw under the bus and bluff that it’s a vig game though

[fervent basalt]

it does prefer other minions but it doesn't lose any ability by killing a baron

[weak ingot]

all Minions are great to throw under the bus

[fervent basalt]

as long as the other minions are good vig kills I think it works

[shadow cradle]

But you might lose an ability

[weak ingot]

i throw myself under the bus so much i got banned from public transport

i do it all the time it's literally your job to fall on the blade for the demon

sure, Baron can do it for free

but it's not really that big of an improvement i feel

[shadow cradle]

Then double claim ^^

No I don’t really see your point, drunk baron is a great interaction but baron on its own is also fine and works very well with other outsiders as well

[weak ingot]

what is with double claiming that is that alluring

falling on the blade for the demon doesn't mean you giving the good team free information

[weak ingot]

yeah that's right

[shadow cradle]

All I’m arguing is that baron isn’t that dependable on the drunk

[weak ingot]

tbf Baron's damage can offset vig anyway. it's not that bad but it could be nicer

[weak ingot]

i mean if it's loud minion suite then everything i just said doesn't matter

i never said that if baron then add drunk

in silent suites on scripts where you actually want omod to be normal it is easiest and least bad if you reach for drunk to accommodate baron

(my actual answer is to use Xaan instead)

[shadow cradle]

Fair

[weak ingot]

(no scripting decision is this easy)

except maybe if Choirboy then add King

[coral jungle]

You do something similar to this with hermit, but that's not relevant to the conversation.

[winter bobcat]

are you referring to drunk hermit or selfremoving?

[coral jungle]

Self removing or 3 outsiders one of which is a hermit

It actually works quite well.

But not better than the TB interaction between baronicus outsiderus and empathus naturalus

[winter bobcat]

self removing is almost strictly goodsided though isnt it? unless you have like gf or spy or something where evil can intentionally take advantage of it

[still sedge]

The bluffs

Crazy

[coral jungle]

Yes, and I hate it but we can exploit it.

[still sedge]

Self removing is fine

Sentinel coded o-mod

[coral jungle]

If anyone else needs more explanation as why baron+drunk is by far the best option, here is a segment from Planet Clocktower.

[subtle wolf]

Seems like the entire discussion has been about Baron, which Drunk doesn’t need and has little to do with No Dashii

[fringe mirage]

It works on things. Flight of the Bumbling Idiots and Tour both use it

Just remember that these two are probably enough to cover your misinfo needs and be careful with heavy Outsider bags, whether +1 Gidfather or Baron

[coral jungle]

Honestly, it kind of does is the problem. Drunk is really really rough without baron's flat +2 as the positive o-mod.

It can work in theory but good luck.

[late ingot]

I think Drunk is realistically ok with many +1s

It's less fun, sure

[fervent basalt]

I don't mind it with godfather personally

not a massive fan of it with fang gu or balloonist/kazali/typhon though

[coral jungle]

Balloonist it's fine with given that balloonist also helps find it. But that might be me making scripts where balloonist isn't really o-mod.

[subtle wolf]

Is it possible y’all are just more familiar with the TB solving space? I don’t see how Baron helps much here. All that Baron guarantees is a hidden Drunk means one of the two or three outsider claims is an evil player. Only at base-0 with one Outsider claim does that substantially help the solve

[frigid flower]

Godfather with drunk its interesting too

[coral jungle]

True, but godfather has its own problems with no dashii.

[coral jungle]

It's less baron is good and more everything else is bad.

Drunk is very very strong without the predictable o-mod of baron

Compare to the o-mod on other scripts. Godfather is +/- 1, vigor and fang gu are mutually exclusive and are hard to tell apart if you know what you're doing, and xaan is arbitrary

Godfather can work, but like I said, godfather implies more deathmod, something no dashii doesn't like.

In general, no dashii doesn't work with o-mod not on the demons or something like sentinel, which is something that drunk is the polar opposite of.

[subtle wolf]

[coral jungle]

That works. Kinda

It works enough.

You could build a script around it

In a vacuum, no dashii has no problems with drunk

[subtle wolf]

How is Baron a more predictable o-mod than, say, Godfather? Simply because the GF might remove outsiders instead?

[coral jungle]

Yep. Baron is always +2

Godfather is +/- 1

Drunk is effectively a -1

[grand token]

i dont believe baron is mandatory for drunk on scripts designed with a difficult lineup of quiet outsiders in mind

baron becomes a huge balance issue especially on these scripts because what the fuck is good team supposed to do when a baron adds a drunk and a damsel into a bag with klutz/plague doc alr present

[coral jungle]

So a missing outsider claim could be a godfather, or a drunk. An extra could be a bluff or a godfather. A normal count be normal or a bluff with a drunk or a bluff with godfather or a godfather adding a drunk.

This is on the high end of drunk viability by the way.

[coral jungle]

This is a question of why baron/drunk are here in the first place.

But also, it's not actually that bad.

But if you don't want that sort of thing, just use puzzlemaster over drunk.

[coral jungle]

Now that I think about it, good point. I have some script evaluation to do.

[grand token]

also baron is really not a very good source of outsider variegation, considering it can cause 4 outsiders... my players will always meta my bag saying a baron cant be in play because theres base 2. i much prefer xaan for those purposes

[coral jungle]

Oh that's definitely not true.

Players can meta that bag at their own peril

[subtle wolf]

This doesn't seem like it makes Baron sooo much better with Drunk than other o-mod. GF having two forms of modification, one of which removes an Outsider, doesn't seem insurmoutable for worldbuilding to me. My real concern with GF/Drunk is feelsbad evil wins when Drunk is executed in F5

[coral jungle]

I'm totally putting a baron in base two.

[coral jungle]

Walk through the scenarios I ran with baron. There's far fewer.

[grand token]

im not a nearly spiteful enough st to commit to the bit consistently

really xaan is just a better baron in most cases regardless, for these purposes. imo

[coral jungle]

I mean I won't always, but baron is perfectly fine at base two

[winter bobcat]

xaan you gotta stay alive

[coral jungle]

Why'd anyone meta you wouldn't put it in?

[winter bobcat]

you don't know X

and you want to try to use your ability if you can

[grand token]

because one of my weaknesses as a storyteller is to always want to create like a balanced and normal-ish bag

[winter bobcat]

baron can go full swingin out of the gate

[coral jungle]

Baron is balanced fine.

[grand token]

it still serves the purpose of a telegraphed complex outsider variation

[summer adder]

baron in base 2 is balanced and normal-ish

[grand token]

especially IF xaan dies early

[winter bobcat]

for sure

[coral jungle]

There's a reason it's the TB o-mod.

[grand token]

in tb specifically yeah i agree

its very well balanced

[winter bobcat]

baron is allowed to be a minion

[grand token]

i think it can get bad in customs

[coral jungle]

I think you haven't seen any good baron customs.

[winter bobcat]

its whole ability is adding two outsiders

let that hurt the good team

[coral jungle]

I've had a lot of success with baron on my script.

[grand token]

i have not, indeed

i dont like baron very much. i dont add it to many of my scripts

[coral jungle]

Though you absolutely have a point, the outsider suite is probably a little to strong on it.

@grand token There are a few good customs with baron in here if you want a look. https://discord.com/channels/569683781800296501/1455647528094793965

[coral jungle]

Oh wait, this is about Caravan, isn't it? Leave it, it's fine.

Caravan is great as is.

🤦 Can't believe I didn't realize that.

[subtle wolf]

Haha, thanks! I'm familiar with the interaction because of Caravan but I was also genuinely curious what people think. My concern is that No Dashii and Drunk at 8 or 9 players doesn't work

[winter bobcat]

no dashii in general is pretty rough at 1 minion counts

[subtle wolf]

And weak at 3 minions, right?

[coral jungle]

I mean yeah. It's effectively an extra baron

[coral jungle]

Not really no

It's the second strongest SnV demon after the monster that is fang gu

[winter bobcat]

it gets weaker the more players, but is still very strong at 15

[coral jungle]

Though vigor is close behind in third.

[winter bobcat]

its just pretty ridculous as you go down in count

[coral jungle]

I mean, it's like a baron on a demon

Which is pretty dang good.

[subtle wolf]

I wish there was a way to scale No Dashii better. It's a well-designed demon but the domination in 1-minion games is frustrating

[winter bobcat]

bagbuilding i guess?

like stuff like soldier will be more likely to mitigate the droison at smaller counts

[subtle wolf]

Soldier is a good shout. I think it's close to an inherent problem, though. In a 7p game, two townsfolk are poisoned and probably sharing garbage info, plus two evils doing the same. That means a strict majority of info/abilities is garbage. How is good supposed to win with only three sober townsfolk?

[coral jungle]

You've hit the Extension Cord problem!

I remember having to learn this.

[wide portal]

fwiw Extension Cord was primarily tested at 2 and 3 Minion player counts

I've had fun games at one Minion count, but they do tend to be more swingy

[spare hinge]

[03/04]

Philosopher x Lleech

[coral jungle]

Um, I don't see any major issues.

[winter bobcat]

philo can be a quiet or loud host depending

[spare hinge]

I'm coming at this mainly from the Philo-drunkenness vs Lleech-poison angle

[winter bobcat]

yeah i was just identifying a different way to come at it

[winter bobcat]

its similar to solving ojo vs other demons imo

[coral jungle]

That's fine.

[spare hinge]

I think it's interesting specifically as a bluff in a Lleech game

[coral jungle]

That is cool

Very cool

[fringe mirage]

Cute to bluff as a Lleech, but can also bite you in the ass if you get executed and outed Llerch

[grand token]

could be a fun bluff! though it uhh, definitely inherently draws alot of attention to your host

[fringe mirage]

It’s also nice without many issues

[winter bobcat]

depends on what survival is on script

[grand token]

if they ever feel like youre the demon, its a paper trail

[winter bobcat]

which, admittedly, isnt good with lleech

[grand token]

even if i saw a da on script i dont think anyone would really accept it as an alternate world

[spare hinge]

well hopefully none lmao

[fringe mirage]

Well you could also claim Philo as a role you didn’t host

And then the logic fails you

[coral jungle]

Then it's just a normal philo bluff

[obsidian trout]

Clearly the answer is get a minion to bluff philo who picked what the leech host is

[coral jungle]

And there's no problems!

[grand token]

but uhh

[winter bobcat]

you dhave to know though

[coral jungle]

Put it on your script all you like!

[grand token]

how would you know what role they are unless they hard claimed

[fringe mirage]

It is also fun that people could get sus of a real Philo

[grand token]

it just a rough bluff

[coral jungle]

Well, as much as the most limiting character in the game will allow.

[fringe mirage]

Like a real Philo ca make someone look like a Lleech host

[coral jungle]

It's a normal philo bluff. Not too bad.

[grand token]

i suppose. not particularly titillating

[subtle wolf]

Scripts with DA and Lleech are not worth playing. Horrible combination. Just throw it out.

[grand token]

and why's that

[winter bobcat]

you have to correctly hit 4 executions to win as good

[subtle wolf]

The potential to DA protect the host late game is indistinguishable from the DA protecting another player or the Lleech itself being executed. It's completely unfair to the town.

Also, Lleech doesn't need other characters on script that cause execution survival. Lleech doesn't benefit from bluffing Sailor (another bad combo) because town knows they aren't the final day execution. Lleech is best on normal scripts where it can be found out if executed midgame.

So if a script has Lleech and DA, just disregard it. Not worth considering any further.

[still sedge]

Ok lleech v DA is fine

[winter bobcat]

its somewhat interesting on minuitlikes

[grand token]

why is that?

[winter bobcat]

double tap the demon to realize they are lleech

then doubletap the host

[grand token]

its plenty distinguishable in many cases. i think its a matter of bag building

[grand token]

i suppose. or you could kill the da first

i think it just depends on whether you give the good team means to sniff out minions

[winter bobcat]

you still have to double tap the lleech unless the DA outs DA

[steel kestrel]

I mean lleech DA gameplay just being “oh always doubletap” isn’t all that interesting to me

it’s a combo I do dislike

[weak ingot]

i'm super not a fan of Lleech DA because the double tap is just really boring

it's science that has no real consequence or impact

“science”

[winter bobcat]

its kinda a several night assassin tbh

which is just really freaking strong

[still sedge]

yeah it's only good for minuitlikes really

and nothing else

[steel kestrel]

the only execution survival I like with lleech is vizier with alsaahir on script 🔥

[still sedge]

true

true so true

infinite true

[weak ingot]

making a good Minuit is hard because the original is just always better

[winter bobcat]

i think executionology is pretty good

[weak ingot]

Minuit justifies Pacifist as well as DA anyway

which is super impressive given the circumstances ()

[subtle wolf]

The “matter of bagbuilding” is to never bag Lleech with DA, which means they shouldn’t be on the same script

No other bagbuilding strat gets around it

[still sedge]

"soft hate jinxes" are bad

[subtle wolf]

What is this

[still sedge]

the MM engine

Lleech Vortox MM

[weak ingot]

[still sedge]

the actual script uses DA and Pacifist

[subtle wolf]

Lol wth, I gotta check that script out

[still sedge]

it works because people dying to execution makes people fear MM when no deaths

Double tap? fails in lleech. Sleep? Fails in Vortox

or it's po

[weak ingot]

(Someone executed, no one died at night? Panic! You can't do nothing, what if Vortox? You can't double tap, what if host?)

[still sedge]

and you're all gonna die.

[weak ingot]

Pacifist delays panic, DA adds confusion

[still sedge]

well double tap is only bad assuming it was a Lleech host exe

[winter bobcat]

yeah the last one should be what if host? not MM

[still sedge]

Oh and also

"If we double tap, PO"

[winter bobcat]

and the reason DA/Paci are pretty much necessary there is outed lleech completely dismantles the panic

not that they are necessarily bad in play, but they are more important for script presence as confounds

[wary solstice]

I have softened on this, since MM + Lleech still has a benefit in that if final 3 is Lleech, MM, and host, Evil has won. So while the panic no longer can happen with outed Lleech, there is still use for the MM.

[subtle wolf]

I checked that out and tbh it seems like DA/Lleech is only justified there because it’s necessary to make the script dilemma work, not because it’s merited on its own. I would be annoyed playing that script and dealing with Lleech/DA

Could be totally wrong though

[wary solstice]

You'd be disagreeing with someone quite prominently then regarding Minuit #custom-script-discussion message
#custom-script-discussion message (See reacts)
#custom-script-discussion message (See react)

[subtle wolf]

The central interaction is undoubtedly cool

[unborn trellis]

Simple answer is

Be good

Like dud philo get to choose

Philo drunking tf is a risk to take

But it’s never something to be expected

You don’t expect it to cover for whatever other drunkenness

You don’t expect it to be a misinfo

It happening is an accident and it not happening is usually what you get

[subtle wolf]

Philo may inadvertently choose the townsfolk already hosting the Lleech. ST can then be more brazen with Lleech poison, depending on how well Philo is trusted. Maybe this is actually helpful for good.

An evil player can bluff philo who chose the Lleech host’s character.

A Philo who is the host will not drunk whatever good ability they choose. This is bad if that ability is mechanical, but I think Lleech shouldn’t be scripted with many mechanical townsfolk anyway.

In general, this is a mildly positive interaction

[wary solstice]

Also, hey, don't diss Minuit's relatives . Executionolgy & Mind Your Step are great.

[unborn trellis]

The original Minuit still has poisoner on it

we can do better than this

[frigid flower]

Mind your step is better for newer players imo

Executionology is more hardcore

[unborn trellis]

exeolgy is great

[frigid flower]

Its more hardcore because its a propper full script with 4 demons

[weak ingot]

nah, i have a skill issue

(most of my Minuit drabbles end up as one of the three but worse)

[tawny haven]

wiggling tightropes found dead in a ditch

[weak ingot]

six zier fear found dead in a ditch with 98 stab wounds

(you know, my most normal script with the most the normal jinx interaction that a preached vizier can mean an instant evil win)

[frigid flower]

Old jinxes?

[cloud sentinel]

Paci no DA 😭

[weak ingot]

no, new jinxes

[frigid flower]

But the preacher now just deletes the force exe part of the vizier

[weak ingot]

yeah lol i need to fix it

[frigid flower]

No need to fix if vizier and lleech are enough cover imo

[weak ingot]

If the Vizier is babysitting Lil' Monsta, they die when executed.
If the Vizier loses their ability, they learn this, and cannot die during the day.

remember: can’t die > die (just how protection works)

[frigid flower]

Huh

[cloud sentinel]

Cringe

[weak ingot]

So... a preached Vizier holding Lil’ Monsta is now immortal

Lol Lmao

[cloud sentinel]

Old vizier jynx was better

[tawny haven]

axo minuitslop ft george hw bush found dead

[weak ingot]

i love the crossed out

[tawny haven]

well yeah the jinx sucks

this was before i learned the intent of the jinx was for the might to be on a per-script basis

[weak ingot]

it is that yeah

but... uh

[tawny haven]

it's not even the first time i've crossed out the new math jinxes

[weak ingot]

that’s like replacing a perfectly fine interaction with something you bootlegger anyway

so like what’s the point

CJRD chooses to say “that’s stupid” and conciously misinterprets the jinx

[tawny haven]

isn't that the RAI column

and you have the rules that are clearly not as intended in the RAI column

[weak ingot]

there isn’t a rai column lmao RAW and RAI are combined to whatever i feel is better

(if you wanted RAI, just... use the old jinx )

[tawny haven]

me when i get shown the drunk token n1 and bluff librarian as the mathematician

(i'm the marionette)

[weak ingot]

🔥

yeah so now you can ignore the math up altogether if you really want to with the jinx

it makes math a secondary thing

arguably you can even show the Drunk token falsely when they‘re droisoned too? i‘m unclear how Djinn interacts with poisoning in many circumstances

[tawny haven]

you can totally simulate jinxes happening to poisoned players

e.g. showing the butler token to a droisoned cannibal when the executed evil player is bluffing butler

drunk (preacher) learning it's legion

[weak ingot]

sweet! yeah then Miss Interpret makes the Math/Drunk jinx less of a nothingburger and more of something that can be actually scripted around

if the jinx says “learn” then why not interpret it differently

[tawny haven]

oh speaking of math i need to run neo star's edge to see if it's stable

[winter bobcat]

oh speaking of math i never uploaded the new sandstorm did I?

[real heron]

3/6: Riot x Cerenovus

[weak ingot]

can't really be ceremad on riot day

kinda... nothin’

hey jimmy! give me a riot minion with nothin'

-# nothing???

you can break madness on day 3 if it's riot for free because the alternative is that. well. you skip the riot day

i kinda prefer Harpy in literally every aspect because you can have it so that harpy madness follows all the way until d3 noms

2 days of Cerenovus madness isn't going to be that impactful

unless you really really script around it

in which case i don't really understand

if there's other Demons on script it's probably fine though

[fringe mirage]

Could be interesting if you have reasons for no deaths on N2 or N3, especially Summoner

Make it costlier to break ceremadness if it isn’t Riot

But it is akward that if good can solve no Riot before the Riot, Cere may as well hit themself N3

[real heron]

Summoner/riot is nearly perfectly unsolvable

[fringe mirage]

Summoner Riot does work on things. It’s on Conjectures of a Conspiracy Theorist and that script isnt horrible

[real heron]

It isn’t on CoaCT, not anymore at least

[weak ingot]

Summoner was removed no?

for this. exact reason?

yeah i'm not a fan of Cerenovus Riot but it's not like. terrible

it feels like the kind of thing you sand off after testing

unless your script has some super justification and really really really really needs Cerenovus, i don't see why you can't just use Harpy

[real heron]

I may have asked about this interaction cause I’m cooking something up that has the justification you’re talking about

[weak ingot]

i mean

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/720010349587202200/1394817463148875787/VacuumsSuck.gif

it'll probably be easier to talk about when you release the script lol

[real heron]

I’m aware. I was just curious if there was something I was missing that was a vacuum-style issue that I wasn’t aware of

[weak ingot]

the vaccuum issue is just that it doesn't do anything as is due to 2 days of ceremadness

and the 1st day is uncontrollable as always

Harpy is simply just much better at being a Riot minion imo

but this is about Cerenovus

i think Riot might be a funny way to put Cerenovus and Harpy on the same script

you know what's jank? Goblin Cerenovus Riot

[tawny haven]

summoner notably is not (and has never been afaik) on coact

[fringe mirage]

Oh… I guess it’s just death puzzle Riot

[tawny haven]

you might be thinking of Fire Away

[weak ingot]

huh, never heard of that

[tawny haven]

it's nominally an async text script, which is why summoner is on it, because starting riot has never won async text ever. whether it actually functions as one in practice depends on the environment

because at first glance it has a lot of characters which seem weird in longtext (yaggababble, HP, summoner itself, riot, poli) but in the specific server it was made for it tends to function pretty decently

[weak ingot]

looks like the most group context dependent script ever yeah

[tawny haven]

someone should make an image like this with high priestess as the token art and "group context matters" as the token name

[weak ingot]

you'd be sending that every time someone posts a base only 🏳️‍⚧️ script and people rag on it for having witch assassin

[tawny haven]

Characters that heavily depend on an individual group's social dynamics might work differently in other contexts.

[tawny haven]

trans?

[weak ingot]

transition

[tawny haven]

anyway i actually want to post it whenever Requiem gets like that about High Priestess

(which is all the time)

[weak ingot]

(you know ECP is kinda tb → bmr/snv)

[tawny haven]

aaah

"harm reduction custom" is the term i'm familiar with

(because vati popularized it and i am a sheep)

[weak ingot]

oh i've heard of that

i feel like it's kinda disengenuous to assume your group will cause harm when moving

also saying “we will be playing a transition script” feels more neutral

and i get to use 🏳️‍⚧️ emoji more

[real heron]

Good excuse for anything imo

[weak ingot]

SLGRTW is my daughter and she's on 6 months of oestrogen

the two genders (TB and Not TB)

[tawny haven]

Well it's more in terms of "making sure people don't play Legion for their 3rd game ever"

because that's harm

[green fiber]

you guys have played TB twice? yeah time for blind whalebucket

[weak ingot]

that's harm

chicken harm and wheeze of death

[tawny haven]

tb -> midnight oasis

[weak ingot]

wouldn't that make like

any actually decent intermediate script a harm reduction script

[tawny haven]

a harm reduction custom is designed with the intent to be a transition script

they're interchangeable terms if i'm catching your drift

[weak ingot]

a transition script is just a script that contains elements of two (or more) scripts so that a group can go from one to the other without getting overwhelmed or if they're hesitant to try something completely new

arguably this means basebucket is the transition script for whalebucket

but i usually use it to refer to TB+SNV (which are fun to make) or TB+BMR (which will be forever jank)

transition scripts are usually supposed to be played once or thrice or in circumstances where it seems more appropriate

[grand token]

ive found tb+bmr is really valuable to get new players that often struggle to solve around drunk+protection roles a bit more used to the mechanics

[rose oriole]

I always put Cere on my Riot scripts because I interpret “this must happen” as “if the day ends without a nom, the estee noms” and rule that a madness break starts the riot immediately

[frigid flower]

ECP?

[summer adder]

everyone can play

[frigid flower]

I have seen my group do this and get insta explosion of Vortox/Heretic stuff

[frigid flower]

I always forget it

My group tends to go more for Onions Pies

For expert + Novices games

But when i storytell, Tour is only on the menu.

[frigid flower]

Run this one time and it was a blast plague Doctor Summoner making a riot and both the HP and The Amnesiac woke at night but also died at night

(i rule out that Plague Doctor Summoner makes arbitrary deaths)

[wooden knoll]

I'll go next

But its not 7 yet

[tawny haven]

I think that was the 3/5 entry

[wooden knoll]

Oh?

Ok then

3/6: Snake Charmer x Recluse

Did once for Hermit

But apparently this is also funny

[tawny haven]

🤷‍♀️ bit of a non-interaction here, you really shouldn't be activating the SC's ability on the Recluse at all

[weak ingot]

...i guess you can create extra evils with it?

[wooden knoll]

Yeaaaaa

True

But

Can also swap Recluse?

Creating extra evil!!!!!

[forest spindle]

Add hermit and lunatic to the mix and you have a banger interaction

[wooden knoll]

Real

[frigid flower]

Who its the one turning evil here?

[fervent basalt]

the starting snake charmer

[wooden knoll]

Yea

Register the recluse as evil, so switch alignments

SC becomes evil Recluse

Or if you're insane like that

Evil Demon

[shadow cradle]

Have the recluse register as a good demon and turn the SC into a good demon

[subtle wolf]

The only circumstance I would consider swapping Snake Charmer with a misregistering Recluse is when the original demon is dead and the Evil twin and good twin are still alive.

I believe you can legally swap the characters and have Charmer turn into a good Recluse, since recluse registers as demon when selected but recluse when swapped. The only time I would allow this is on a Heretic script, or a Legion script, or something else insane.

[wooden knoll]

I suppose so

[subtle wolf]

The other options, which are turning Charmer into a good demon or evil recluse, are even more fringe and would also only be done with Heretic, Legion, or maybe Atheist on script

[real heron]

Patters did the funny SC/Recluse thing in a recent game to create two evil demons at the same time and then the evil team lost in the span of 3 days anyway

In general though, I think that you should be very aware of your groups stance on shenanigans before doing anything like that

It’s actually kinda interesting to snake charm a recluse and become the good recluse, since it can create some confirmation without potentially sinking the evil team in some capacity (but aforementioned awareness is important here too)

[unborn trellis]

If it is an interaction, it’s bad

[coral jungle]

So for anyone who isn't willing to read all of this: Yes but don't.

[3/7] Klutz x Recluse

[lucid berry]

Also a yesbutdont

[shadow cradle]

I guess you really shouldn’t pick someone claiming recluse/the recluse should scream the klutz that they shouldn’t pick them

[winter bobcat]

Yeah just don’t pick the outed recluse

[rose oriole]

How many x Recluse are we going to have 😔

[grand token]

suitable punishment to activate to punish good for a recluse caught unawares

i treat this as an "always activate" sort of interaction, barring extenuating circumstances/newer players

[kind berry]

[subtle wolf]

Not a good script combo because evil suffers from claiming recluse, diminishing the chance for a Klutz win.

[grand token]

never thought of it this way; though generally, if evil's placed in a position to make a recluse claim, i feel any competent player should be sure to choose them last as klutz regardless

though, ive very often only seen people use a recluse claim as a defensive reaction, which isnt really how you should be doing it ideally, id suppose

[weak ingot]

TBF, it's kinda bad Librarian

i could see a world where SC <-> Recluse without alignment changing is an Outsider killing the future SC information and the SC confirming a Recluse

[boreal nest]

You can confirm each other i guess? Like recluse registers as demon but not evil, you are now prove good recluse, the new snake charmer knows you were a snakecharmer and your info is correct

[boreal nest]

https://tenor.com/view/nothing-ever-happens-angry-birds-gif-14664813930774351418

[boreal nest]

You do confirm your snakecharmer info in certain cases

[cloud sentinel]

Yes.

2 outsiders interacting together shouldn't help good

unless it's like heretic-klutz

[tawny haven]

It can feel bad to end the game if the Recluse isn't outed when they get picked. If the Recluse is outed - play stupid games win stupid prizes

[wooden knoll]

The Recluse is a surprisingly problematic character

[wooden knoll]

I am inclined to lean into axo's ruling

[wooden knoll]

Recluse is a Townsfolk

[subtle wolf]

They don’t hurt good. Recluse outs to the klutz and says to choose someone else

[cloud sentinel]

yes

that's how the interaction goes

[subtle wolf]

So the interaction is bad then because Recluse/Klutz does help good

[boreal nest]

well snakecharmer is

[subtle wolf]

[3/8] Snake Charmer x Wraith

[obsidian trout]

I always find snake charmer and <minion who can figure out who the snake charmer is> to be funny interactions

Cuz you can just go up to them and try and recruit them

Wraith specifically will always know when a swap happens, so they can clue the rest of the minions in on it

[unborn trellis]

what's the...ooh

[shadow cradle]

Sell out your demon, let’s go

[jaunty tapir]

yeah I really like this interaction, I find spy + snake charmer fun already but wraith is just so much cooler and probably stronger than it (here specifically), getting to immediately communicate both the best (latest) time to snake charm and also being able to communicate kills

[weak ingot]

Any reason to only share partial information with your Demon is very interesting. / is pretty neat. Though, this might not be very positive the Demon specifically. Maybe with , who can give the Minion the responsibility to deal with the Snake Charmer instead.

(or , that can always move)

(or with the houserule jinx)

[subtle wolf]

The basic synergy here is that in the event of a charming, Wraith establishes contact with their new demon immediately. The Snake Charmer almanac instructs the Storyteller to "Wake the new demon and show them the YOU ARE info token..." even though that player is already awake from using the SC ability. Since the Wraith ability requires them to be woken with other evil players, RAW, this means that if the SC chooses the demon, you immediately wake Wraith before informing the SC they're now the demon. So Wraith is guaranteed to know about their new demon, the new demon knows at least part of their evil team, and the Wraith can instruct who is wise to kill later that night.

The standard advantage of Wraith comes into play here, too: Wraith can peek to see who Snake Charmer is confirming and instruct their team to kill those players. Snake Charmer is especially countered by Wraith in this way because SC wakes first, so the Wraith easily identifies them, and because SC involves the Storyteller pointing down on the selected player to confirm the target, which is easy for Wraith to track.

Of course, the spiciest aspect of this combo is the Wraith's ability to betray their own demon. This seems to reduce evil's chance of winning most of the time, but maybe there are unusual circumstances or script combos. Furthermore, Wraith needs to be cautious trying to do this. If Wraith points out his demon too early, the charmed demon will out the evil team and evil will be on the back foot. If Wraith waits too long, the SC will be executed or killed at night and will out the Wraith. Wraith can advise his original demon during night kills, trying to leave SC alive for a late betrayal, but he can't really afford to point out the SC player as someone to avoid killing. And there is always the remote chance that the SC player betrays the Wraith, refuses to swap, and outs the Wraith's confession to town.

[subtle wolf]

The presence of several other characters make SC/Wraith even better. With so many chances for evil players to be publicly outed, Goblin and Boomdandy give the evil team room to bluff those situations and push to execute these minions. Pit-Hag can turn a good player into the Snake Charmer, with whom Wraith makes contact at night to steal the demonhood tomorrow night. Wraith can instruct the Cerenovus to lock the original demon into their bluff and prevent them outing as Snake Charmer. A Snake Charmer-turned-Imp can pass demonhood back to the Wraith or to another minion.

Several evil characters help Wraith immediately undermine the usefulness of SC info. If the Wraith sees SC choose a minion, he can instruct the Imp to starpass to that minion. If the Wraith sees SC choose Scarlet Woman, he can instruct almost any demon type to pass the demonhood. If the Wraith tells the Fang Gu to kill a good player who was just confirmed by SC, that player might be an Outsider and become the Fang Gu.

Like my post here from a few days ago, I shamelessly posted SC/Wraith because it's present on Caravan. I'm curious if anyone has seen the combo in practice, but I doubt so since Wraith has barely been used on scripts so far.

[tawny haven]

Super good interaction - the SC-turned-Demon and Wraith can immediately coordinate, and the Wraith can tell waking Minions that a snarm has happened

It's a bit of Caravan I really like

like, Wraith/Cere/SC is very fun because you can cerelock your former Demon

[coral jungle]

This is probably the best interaction on Caravan and that is not hyperbole. Grimpeeker+snarmer was already known to be a very good interaction that opened up a layer of strategic play, and wraith tacks on one more. The ability to coordinate with the snarmer immediately is a bit of a double-edged sword. On one hand, the snarmer can quickly get an out and evil can play damage control. On the other hand, the new snake charmer knows this, and they are going to out immediately since they know their minions are onto them. Wrait's cooridination ability leads to a lot of crazy and fun play, and I like it a lot!

[subtle wolf]

There is more to this synergy than I realized at first.

Wraith might be the best character at faking being charmed and publicly outing a fake evil team. Wraith might know which characters are out of play. Knowing what information is being learned each night helps Wraith decide the best moment to announce they’ve been charmed and helps craft a believable narrative. This is a very high skill play.

Secondly, exploring Imp/Wraith/SC more, a Wraith who becomes Imp is a terrifying target for the SC.

[unborn trellis]

At this point it’s just what spy does

[unborn trellis]

why am i getting big x 😭

Isn't being able to bluff fake snake charm at perfect moment and being a bad snarm target both what spy does

[coral jungle]

I was about to jump on the bandwagon but... yeah. A grimpeeker can indeed do all of that. Probably better. Not that this makes this play any less cool.

[fervent basalt]

[3/9] Golem x Pit-Hag

[steady kernel]

Seems fine to me. I’ve only played one script with these two though

Golem still can be hard confirmed on day one but day one punches tend to be less helpful since there’s less info backing it

Late game evil Golems can also be super dangerous if good isn’t expecting it

[fervent basalt]

Evil golems are really fun imo, but if made on the final day they can just end the game - my thought is that this is fine since good can simply kill the pit-hag/evil golem before they're able to end the game

[steady kernel]

Yeah, I don’t think it’s broken, just saying it’s a threat good has to be aware of

[fervent basalt]

I think it probably works best with townsfolk that can either stop this or be warned of it happening (sailor, savant, fisherman etc)

[wary solstice]

Sailor might not be the most helpful, since if its Final 3, the Evil Golem can just self terminate.

It's only if Sailor is the final Good alive prior to Final 3, or if ST is generous and allows drunking the Evil Golem

[fervent basalt]

oh yeah it won't stop it in final 3 unless the sailor drunks the golem

[frigid flower]

Game ending moment, silent pithag moment thou

[wooden knoll]

Constantly sinking pithags to the Minion

Surprise! Now you have a golem!

[frigid flower]

I belive this is a really evil sided interaction thou

[real heron]

Prematurely ending a final 3 by self turning to golem and self-punching can be kinda cringe

I don’t know how they interact other than that

[fervent basalt]

well you can make an evil golem early in the game

(+ if it's another minion, potentially then turn them into the demon)

[weak ingot]

Pit-Hag makes Golem more Outsider

but not really in a great way

unclimatic final threes and fours are fine, they just need to be obviously clear and town needs enough knowledge to deal with it

[fervent basalt]

I think golems not being confirmed is fun personally

[weak ingot]

the thing is, there's not much info roles that can deal with Golem and Pit-Hag

Savant, Fisherman, Artist are pretty unreliable

it's "kill all minions" simulator, which i think needs super careful scripting

or at least "know all Minions"

[fervent basalt]

what do you think works well with it?

[weak ingot]

probably louder minions like Organ Grinder

[unborn trellis]

It’s a good interaction bc it nerfs golem

Yes golem can nom d1 to confirm

But a golem who nominate d1 is simply less likely to be helpful

[jaunty tapir]

I like boffin-golem significantly more tbh

the risk is super unsatisfying endings with an evil golem made on f5, whereas if you want bluffability boffin just does it better

PH turning into a golem feels like it's either too strong or too weak: you either get normal nights of PH strength and then win on f5, or you confirm a non-demon as not the demon and I guess get confirmed and unable to nominate? But like.. a PH doesn't want to get confirmed late into the game they would rather be executed

[coral jungle]

Just nom day one if you're worried about it. Probably yourself.

[chilly cedar]

Pit Hag Golem also can't have the golem ability on D1

Unlike boffin golem

[boreal nest]

Evil golem be like: we have psychopath at home.

[fervent basalt]

if it isn't yourself you're turning into a golem, you can then turn them into the demon once they're 'confirmed'

[chilly cedar]

That is true

Only really viable in 10p+ gsmes

But it is pretty cool

[subtle wolf]

[3/10] Goblin x Imp

[obsidian trout]

Thanks I hate it

[weak ingot]

sort of thing you scriptbuild the script around

even then, bit harsh innit?

[steady kernel]

Honestly not sure how I feel about it. Goblin works best when you are able to distinguish it from the Demon, but with this, the Goblin can easily become the Demon later on

But if there’s powerful enough info that can react to a starpass, I could see it being solvable

[obsidian trout]

Even if you do figure the goblin is a minion, you'll never know if they still are a minion

Town crier is always 1 day behind

[weak ingot]

yeah if there's powerful enough information to solve gobbo then like. the goblin eats shit

[winter bobcat]

Just never pass to the goblin until they’re the only one left

[weak ingot]

if there isn't town eats it

i guess you can your way out of it (don't)

it's not even interesting for

[obsidian trout]

I dislike the implication of imp and heretic even being scripted together

[winter bobcat]

I really don’t see the problem there

[still sedge]

Let. Demons. Kill. Themselves. On. Heretic. Scripts.

[winter bobcat]

It makes evil have to work a little harder to heretic win

[still sedge]

PLEASE I beg

[still sedge]

and they shouldn't have to

why should I have to fight against my own ability

[steel kestrel]

problem is that there's like 2 demons that don't break with heretic tbh

[still sedge]

especially when turns out heretic solving is lategame, so it could literally be too late

[steel kestrel]

or otherwise break with the other characters that you'd script with heretic

[still sedge]

Nodashii is fine

[subtle wolf]

I believe this could be the single best minion/demon combo in all of BOTC. I’ll explain why later though

[still sedge]

that's a hot take

[winter bobcat]

Best as strongest vs best as most fun/healthiest

[obsidian trout]

Which are?

[winter bobcat]

I feel like typhon is one

[obsidian trout]

If you say levi and riot because they can't kill themselves at night I am gonna riot

[winter bobcat]

I nom @obsidian trout

[obsidian trout]

Wth

[winter bobcat]

Teehee

[real heron]

Needs scriptbuilding considerations. Even still, its either a matter of 'too strong for evil or too strong for good' depending on setups, which is kind of unfortunate

[weak ingot]

LM doesn't count just give the baby to a corpse

[obsidian trout]

Maybe we shouldn't let you near children....

[winter bobcat]

Pukka is so ass with heretic

[obsidian trout]

I think Coda was saying demons that can't kill themselves at night

[winter bobcat]

I understand

But mobile droison sucks with heretic

[weak ingot]

but legion is actually good with Heretic

[coral jungle]

Fits Caravan's theme, but usually not that great.

[unborn trellis]

It’s bad until 7-9p

It’s less ass than scarlet goblin

Bc imp starpass means they need 1 more kill to accomplish killing all demon checkers

(Comparing to scarlet goblin)

[fringe mirage]

It’s fine, as long as you have Goblin solvers

You should probably be able to build starpass worlds and you can always kill the Goblin claim on final 3

Its also on Bleeding of the Warband (yes the homebrew) and that has Scarlet too, which is arguably a worse Goblin interaction

[subtle wolf]

If it can be too strong for evil or good depending on setup, why is there no middle ground?

[real heron]

There can be a middle ground, it’s just going to be hard for a script to consistently find it for all setups

That’s why it’s an issue

[subtle wolf]

Goblin/Imp might be the best minion/demon combo in BOTC.

The Imp's ability to starpass is useful for several reasons: it nerfs demon finders who clear minions before they become Imp, it allows the Imp to bluff demonsbanes, and it grants the dead Imp a degree of social trust, while lowering trust in good players who die at night. Arguably the biggest advantage, though, is Imp's ability to escape heat coming from good players. Starpassing isn't helpful after the whole evil team lifts Imp off the block, since one of those outed evils will be the new demon. Imp has to anticipate the heat and starpass the night before, even though the Imp can't know what information has been gathered (unless they have a Wraith).

The presence of Goblin on script obviously changes this. A good team who rushes to execute demon candidates who claim Goblin will lose many games, especially as evil players sell false info and push to execute the real Goblin. The Imp can therefore afford to push his luck with town's trust and starpass after scaring off a nomination. Or... if that is the expected play, Imp can stay alive like a real Goblin would. The tension here invites interaction from other characters. Good players who survive a nomination by claiming Goblin can be killed to suggest a starpass. Protection roles like the Monk have more reason to protect a Goblin claim, hoping to stop a starpass and execute that player tomorrow.

[subtle wolf]

Most pertinently, there are cases where both Goblin and Imp are in play, and it is unclear whether the Goblin has become the Imp yet, even in final three. I believe the negative views^ on this situation are mistaken, and it is actually a shining example of synergy and tension in BOTC. When a player claims Goblin, especially if they do it multiple times, you go after your other demon candidates until the Goblin claim is very likely the Imp. If two players keep claiming Goblin, you leave them both alive and sort it out in final three, where a Goblin win is no different than a regular evil win. Any Goblin script worth its salt will have townsfolk that differentiate minions and demons; the Imp/Goblin combo makes this marginally more difficult. Evil players can't just indiscriminately claim Goblin, because they draw social scrutiny and attention from abilities like the Fortune Teller.

Much of the skepticism about Goblin interactions seems to come from an assumption that Goblin claims need to be perfectly solvable, although nobody would agree with that when it's stated explicitly. The Goblin is allowed to win. A script with Goblin that never ends with Goblin wins is a bad script. A script with setups that don't have the exact desired info level for Goblin vs Imp is okay. We shouldn't neurotically remove all variation from this game.

I think the other source of disapproval is players who heavily emphasize the mechanical side of BOTC, either because they're technically minded or because they play online. Goblin is a socially rich character, especially when the stakes are made higher by something like the Imp. Goblin/Imp is great because the situations described above are tense, memorable, and cinematic. BOTC is not just about creating the most mechanically and informationally sophisticated gamestate, but the way some people exclusively talk about it might suggest that. So I hope y'all reconsider this combo because I think you're missing out.

[unborn trellis]

Blah blah I think it’s ok ish