Character interaction thingy

[cloud sentinel]

princess is such a mediocre tf in my opinion

[weak ingot]

Princess has a place, on scripts with a bunch of Townsfolk that would rather lie it serves as a very effective role that can gather cooperation for an action

it‘s also great when there‘s not much to talk about day 1 for the rest of the bag

[cloud sentinel]

but again princess is never hardconfirmed

could always be a demon who sinks

it is a nice way to proc a boomdandy d1 though

[coral jungle]

It's not about hard confirmation, it's about extending town's info another day. If you sink, sure you're bluffing princess, but you gave town a princess day regardless.

And yes, it is also a good way to proc the boomdandy.

[wild bridge]

**1/21: Monk X Vizier **

This interaction request is meant to determine whether forcibly protecting the Vizier is a viable strategy.

[obsidian trout]

Well

U know they aint the demon

So keeping them alive in f3 makes the demon candidates go down to 2

[fervent oracle]

Why would you do that/gen

OH

OOO

THATS COLL

[wary solstice]

This does require the Demon, Vizier, Monk, and another good player in Final 4.

(If everyone alive besides Monk was Evil, the Demon could just kill the Monk.)

[wooden knoll]

So protect lock the Vizier

Until the Demon chooses to kill someone else, that is

[late ingot]

I don't find Monks surviving to f4 super often, actually

[wooden knoll]

But if they do....

BUT IF THEY DO, AMY

[spice ferry]

waiiit does monk protect from a star pass? As in, Imp into protected Vizier?

I feel like I should know this because its a TB interaction

[summer adder]

nope

[wild bridge]

monk protects the imp to prevent the star pass, not the minion to be passed to

[unborn trellis]

It's a fine interaction of monk knowing a non demon

It suffers from the issue that un-demonable viziers are inherently bad

[winter bobcat]

[1/22]: Boffin x Tinker

[tawny haven]

Fun with a Scarlet Woman to mimic confirmation like a GF kill or Gambler death. I wouldn't end the game with Alch-Boffin-Tinker, though.

[forest spindle]

Super useful for any% clocktower speedrun

[cloud sentinel]

You are the Alchemist with the Boffin ability

THE GAME IS OVER, GOOD HAS WON

[weak ingot]

Alch Boffin Tinker in Legion

ignore that it only gives one Legion Tinker, pretend it‘s a RAF ruling

kill everyone in the day

[obsidian trout]

Well once the legion dies u just give it to another

[weak ingot]

ture...

[real heron]

Yag/legion duo demon script with this as an intended interaction?

Also SW cause funnies

[weak ingot]

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[real heron]

Wait this sounds kinda banger

[weak ingot]

cooking

[real heron]

I have way too many script ideas that I’m currently working on to find another lol

You’re welcome to steal it though

[weak ingot]

base idea would be something like this

[real heron]

#1454273735505874944 message
This was based off a somewhat similar idea, but obv the constraints make it janky

[weak ingot]

hmmm, what if,,, secret apprentae

[real heron]

You should change your setup to [+1 Apprentice] atp ngl

Slayer and yag don’t have enough of a positive interaction to make the ‘oopsies shot the yag and the SW hasn’t said a word’ issue worth it

[weak ingot]

i mean i feel like it‘s kinda illegal for setup to do that normally

plus i am basically the pacifist galguy

[real heron]

Yeah that’s fair

I guess I just liked the whimsy of the side joke of regular-looking apprentices

[real heron]

Wait this doesn’t really have to be a thing anymore cause you can instead just bootleg the Pope to include evil characters (?)

[obsidian trout]

I mean is it really the pope at that point

[real heron]

No and also it doesn’t do the thing that invisible apprentice does anyway

I’m just sleep deprived and can’t think

[weak ingot]

yeah invis apprentice adds evil boffin ability

[real heron]

Hear me out:
This +legion -poli
Also special rule amendment so Legion kill similarly to Lil Monsta

Thing is, every time I try make a day deathmod script, I just want to instead be thinking about this script

And legion fits quite nicely into a lot of the TF (maybe Noble and Alsaahir are wonky, but that’s pretty good for blindly adding it)

[weak ingot]

uhhhj,,, there's already legion and no poli

hey what script are you talking about 😭

[real heron]

Wait sleep deprivation hitting me again obv https://discord.com/channels/569683781800296501/1460198347473424395

LOL

Wait, golem/legion is cringe asf ;-;

Ruined

[weak ingot]

that's why i tossed puzz on my script base

wait i didn't

pretend i did

[near kernel]

No it's cool

[fervent basalt]

alch-boffin-tinker can work in the right group if you make it clear that it will kill the demon in final 3

[cloud sentinel]

tbh, if the alch-boffin-tinker survived to f3

the demon deserves to die

[wooden knoll]

Self-Destruct mechanism

[steady granite]

consider if this is like fun for anyone in the game

[winter bobcat]

[1/23]: Puzzlemaster x Widow

[obsidian trout]

Thanks I hate it

[edgy socket]

it's fine stop complaining

[obsidian trout]

I like complaining though

[edgy socket]

The big problem I think is people not respecting those roles independently so when scripting them together doing it in way-too-casual ways, e.g. with lots of other droison

also having them be a script's primary misinfo puts a decent amount of worldbuilding onus on evil in a way that makes the script more advanced (because evil teams that can't assertively claim misinfo will lose in a lot of setups), but this is fine

[wooden knoll]

Two permadroisons? In my game?

It's more common than you think.

[wild bridge]

if Pukka fits anywhere, it would be on this script

[rose oriole]

I’d prefer Drunk + Widow because it makes the Puzzlemaster guess an almost strict 50/50

[wild bridge]

This is a terrible interaction. I know that Puzzlemaster says "1 player," not "1 townsfolk," but the Puzzlemaster should NEVER make the Widow puzzledrunk.

;)

[cloud sentinel]

It would be funny 🥺

[winter bobcat]

[1/24] Golem x Slayer

[fringe mirage]

If the Golem hits the Demon while the Slayer is unspent, good deserves the win

Also I think they fit since Golem is very Tomb Outsider and Slayer is a non info character, so they synergize that way too

[wild bridge]

A confirmed Golem helpfully reduces the number of viable Slayer shot candidates by two.

[winter bobcat]

slayer can also rule out boffin golem i guess

[tawny haven]

Yagga/Golem/Slayer is a fun core

[wary solstice]

Does probably need Scarlet Woman so that fake Slayer kills from Yagga aren't just obvious though.

[wooden knoll]

Golem punches: doesn't die
Slayer:

https://tenor.com/view/thanos-gif-25117042

[wooden knoll]

Recluse is also quite important

So that the golem punch fail will not be so obvious

But I think recluse is optional

[winter bobcat]

legion is also semi viable

with pope/yag and/or PD-boffin-tinker/alchboffintinker

[real heron]

Recluse doesn’t really fix the issue though cause it specifically requires claiming recluse and I think that’s too restrictive to say that golem isn’t a TF in that situation

[tawny haven]

I've scripted around it before and it's fun — it's also on Zets's A Grimm Chorus (pictured)

(this one was something I wrote for a script competition that I then updated a bit after the fact that features the same core of Yagga/Slayer/Golem/SW/Recluse)

[grand cargo]

**[1/25] Politician x Mezepheles **

[late ingot]

It's really funny

[weak ingot]

[coral jungle]

[fringe mirage]

Quickly gets overwhelming if you have 2 extra players plaing for evil

SOI screws one of them over

It's funny that a Mez might get sold out by a Poli they turned

Also Poli is still a trans lesbian dating Mez

[winter bobcat]

Yeah the fun thing is an evil poli can flip back to good by their ability

[cloud sentinel]

tbh I dont trigger SOI with Poli

it feels cringe

and getting a poli win is hard

[fervent basalt]

1/26: Gossip / Yaggababble

[fringe mirage]

Mostly bad, but Quilava did actually try to make a script based on this

It has Monk, Sage, Grandmother, and other roles that react differently to Yag kills vs Gossip kills

Otherwise, don’t put these two together

[wild bridge]

"The inscrutable nature of the Yaggababble's kills makes its combination with the Gossip a generally poor pairing"

-- my Yaggababble phrase

[weak ingot]

Yaggadon't

[wary solstice]

Unless you really know what you're doing, don't put these together. There's no legitimate mechanical way to decipher between these two without proper set up, as any positive number of night deaths is logically possible between Gossip + Yaggababble. Gossip works in BMR as death count numbers have traceable causes, and there's reasonable causes for a lack of deaths in the night.

You can make this combination work however if one does the right combination of characters to go with them both.

[wooden knoll]

Good job, now we have to pay attention to "I Gossip that..." Yaggababbles

TO BE FAIR

I love the Gossip

And I love the Yaggababble

But

Ughhhhh

Together is like saying

I love apple pie

I love salmon sashimi

Therefore they should go together!

Maybe if you're a masochist, it works

However

I am not

[cloud sentinel]

Dont 99% of the time

[subtle wolf]

What is the combination of characters that makes it work?

[cloud sentinel]

mostly monk and granny

kill monk protected players or the grandson/daughter

[wary solstice]

I have this current version of Golden Border of Prester John

Here, the kills between Gossip & Yagga can be differentiated because their kills have different effects.

• Soldier can die to Gossip but not Yagga
• Players protected by Monk can die to Gossip but not Yagga
• The grandchild of the Grandmother can die to the Gossip while the Grandmother stays alive
• Gossip can kill on a Princess night

Along with Cannibal, Philosopher, and Pixie to duplicate some of these effects.

Evil can fake some of these effects either by lying as one of these roles, or through poison.

[cloud sentinel]

afaik the entire script was built around the gossip+yagga thing working

btw I love the addition of princess making boomdandy a lot easier to slot in scripts

[wary solstice]

Yep. The entire point was to make a way where the two work well and remove the critical concern people have with Yagga + Gossip (or remove the concern as much as reasonably possible)

[subtle wolf]

Brilliant, thank you

[neon storm]

Gave +1 Thanks to @wary solstice (current: #134 - 440)

[cloud sentinel]

Still, not a good combo in most scripts

[wary solstice]

Yeah, I agree. The goal was to make it work in this one instance.

So yeah, Golden Border makes the two work, and you can take the same idea to make other Yagga + Gossip scripts. However, they might end up feeling the 'same' as Golden Border

[spare hinge]

[01/27]

Alsaahir x Investigator

[past brook]

Yay the Alsaahir gets nice things

[near kernel]

I think they often go on different types of script but fun synergy

[winter bobcat]

Did someone say Vizier Jinx?

[wooden knoll]

Greatest teamup of the decade

Finally, an interaction that is not cursed

[weak ingot]

Alsie should get nice things

i always want to reiterate that Alsie win is a 1 in 660 per day in 12 players raw

needless to say, you need to get those numbers up those are rookie numbers

[real heron]

Oh dear me, I have an interaction I want to ask about

[wooden knoll]

Yes?

[real heron]

Well it’s not the next day yet

[wooden knoll]

Right

[obsidian trout]

Its the next day somewhere

[real heron]

No it literally isn’t

[wooden knoll]

Not yet

GMT+7 here

[obsidian trout]

:(

[wooden knoll]

It's still 10am on the 27th

[winter bobcat]

someone already took the tomorrow question (assuming your NA)

Ayla is asking about the overmorrow question

[obsidian trout]

I am not NA

[unborn trellis]

do we have reservation for this??

[winter bobcat]

its not so much reservation

as having already sent the question

and people begun answering it

[obsidian trout]

It sounds like Ayla has something

[real heron]

01/28: Lil Monsta x Vizier

Jinx: If the Vizier is babysitting Lil' Monsta, they die when executed

I said cursed. And yeah. But I think it could be a neat way to not make Vizier a thrall in final 5 or so

[coral jungle]

Not a half bad interaction.

[sage sleet]

We have two 1/27s

[chilly cedar]

It makes Vizier better

The issue it only really works in odd player games, unless you script build specifically

If you go into a final 4 with a Vizier and a Lil' Monsta, you can always execute the Vizier. If they're holding the Lil Monsta, they die. If they aren't, they survive and you go into a final 3 anyway

It's an interaction that is really close to making vizier work

[subtle wolf]

With LM/Vizier, ST is forced to leave two minions alive going into final three, right? Which means F3 is a crapshoot between Vizier and other minion. Town can only avoid this if they execute all other minions beforehand

Or ST kills vizier at night

[chilly cedar]

not necassarily

like with other demons on script, you can keep a vizier alive in f3

but yeah you can also kill the vizier at night

[winter bobcat]

i mean other demos would also kill vizier at night

[cloud sentinel]

Kill Viz at night

[wary solstice]

This combo works great with Lleech along with Alsaahir or Invest. The Vizier then has the option of not using their forceful execution ability unless necessary and faking being the Lleech.

But especially works well with Lleech and also Boffin + Alchemist , as then the Vizier can be alive in the final 3 and have used their power but still be a viable candidate for execution without being a thrall. They could be legitimately the Vizier holding Lil'Monsta... or they could be the Lleech and invincible and the real target is the nearby host.

[coral jungle]

This is of course assuming that the viz is silent, which, you know, it should be.

[wary solstice]

Added an addendum to clarify 'with Alsaahir or Invest'

[real heron]

I’m dumb and can’t write properly

[weak ingot]

LM doesn't really work with Alsie raw, so preferably with Investigator

[unborn trellis]

You know what's funny?

If boomdandy explodes when vizier is holding lil monsta, they still cannot die today nomatter what

bc the pointing is not execution

[winter bobcat]

[1/29]: Marionette x Lord of Typhon

[tawny haven]

Very fun! Kinda like how Spy hides the Typhon line mechanically, Marionette tends to hide it socially

[winter bobcat]

Plus it gives you more reason to trust your neighbors

[tawny haven]

I mean that's just a Marionette thing

you don't push on your neighbors on a Marionette script if you want to win

(most people who push on their neighbors on a Marionette script, on some level, do not want to win)

[winter bobcat]

Well you're either Mario or in a reverse typhon line

So more likely than not you're the same alignment as your neighbors

[still sedge]

Smth smth “your info should say you shouldn’t”

[late ingot]

some characters don't get information in a form that makes this super workable

[still sedge]

Make better scripts

[late ingot]

I don't mean Marionette Tea Lady, but I do mean things like Marionette Juggler

[still sedge]

I was thinking marionette clockmaker

[winter bobcat]

yeah but that requires mario and clock on the same script parker

thats almost as bad as mario invest

with the caveat that clock is also pretty worse outside the mario interaction

[real heron]

I think it’s less bad that invest/mario cause like… clock is strong for different reasons than ‘YSK exactly 4 demon candidates’

Like yes that can be how it’s used eventually, but it’s usually not the case that it’s actionable on d1

[edgy socket]

Fundamentally I don't think this is true -- from the perspective of winning, if you have a blue token you have a good wincon much more often than you have an evil one

[cloud sentinel]

Also

Town can figure out that one of your neighours might just be a minion

[wild bridge]

I would argue that the comparison truly worth making is how often, seeing a blue token, that you will decrease your odds of winning with willingness to push on your neighbor versus aversion towards pushing on your neighbor, knowing that the circumstances where you're good and your neighbor is also good lowers those odds.

[coral jungle]

This interaction is good. Typhon loves ways for the line to hide in plain sight, this one works quite well. Scarlet and spy are the other two best minions to pair it with. That's not to say it doesn't work without these guys, but typhon loves to have these minions.

[winter bobcat]

[1/30]: Philosopher x Acrobat

[frigid flower]

Acrobat its a Townfolk moment

[wooden knoll]

Philo chooses Acro

And then chooses the Acro

Dies

👍

[winter bobcat]

Is this not just gambler at home?

[wooden knoll]

The gambler at home:

[cloud sentinel]

Philo-Acro is a good Philo choice
Acro can confirm the Philo and a TF if they choose the drunk TF

[tawny haven]

the Acrobat tracking philo-drunkenness is fun — the rub with Acro, imo, is that it thrives when its MO isn't "kill yourself to confirm a good player"

(which is what can sometimes happen with characters like the Sailor and Innkeeper where they're incentivized to pick into their choices)

[fervent basalt]

Clocktower protip: go philo-philo to catch out the demon bluffing acrobat!

[sudden drift]

...if you go philo-philo every night, is that Math+1 every time except the first?

Super powerful S&V confirmation right there

[summer adder]

its never a math +1

cause its only other character's abilities

and in this case the philo is causing itself to malfunction

[winter bobcat]

Well i mean if you have a pope

[obsidian trout]

No because its still the same character

*role math

[pure raft]

Mathematician (Townsfolk) - Sects & Violets

Each night, you learn how many players' abilities worked abnormally (since dawn) due to another character's ability.

**Affects Setup: **False

[obsidian trout]

Its the same character

Ergo

No math

[fringe mirage]

1/31: Courtier x Summoner

If the living Summoner has no ability, the Storyteller has the Summoner ability.

[wild bridge]

Build your own Poppy-Grower.

Probably in poor taste to summon into the titular spent Courtier.

[frigid flower]

One something similar like this happened but with an amnesiac

Whos power was, once per game, choose a player: They must tell the truth or else their team loses.

Preacher, VI, and Amnesiac selected me and i was the summoner

Had to tell the truth when asked if i was evil

But didnt get questioned.

So i stayed quiet until day 2.

Where i got interrogated and right there i said that i have made a Pukka but i dont know who it is now

[wooden knoll]

Cursed with honesty

But I like that

2/1: Hermit X Snake Charmer

notes: Recluse and Lunatic are both on the script

[forest spindle]

I think this is a dope interaction since an early snake charm wont necessarily make the entire game good favoured. It allows Snake Charmer to get false positive info

[wooden knoll]

Right?

With the recluse the snake charmer could theoretically have the recluse

But

What fun is that

U just confirm the recluse

Ah but with Lunatic

Very fun

Might need one extra outsider that doesn't conflict with this 3 though

[forest spindle]

yea thats the hard part. And also making a coherent script based on those outsider choices

I tried to make the combo work in an leviathan game but the script obv. isnt perfect

[weak ingot]

I don't

hmmmmmmmm is this legal CIT

Snake Charmer is pretty good with that combination

that's all i really have to say to it though

[wooden knoll]

I thought Poli

But like

Geez

Imagine that

[cloud sentinel]

What about Poppy > Magi?

[winter bobcat]

a snarming is loud with levi btw

im p sure you reannounce?

[summer adder]

you dont

[winter bobcat]

ps something stupid you can do, is register the hermit as a minion/demon for the first night info step

[summer adder]

all players already know a leviathan is in play

[cloud sentinel]

☝️

honestly the announcement isnt needed in solo-levi

that way you dont confirm courtiers and whatnot

[real heron]

Alternatively, just announce it every time no matter what in solo levi

Cause it’s fun to make excessively loud noise for announcements :3

[coral jungle]

2/2 Clockmaker x Lil' Monsta

[still sedge]

Good interaction

nerfing clockmaker with demon mobility is good always

[sudden drift]

doesn't really nerf clockmaker in 7-9p games though

[real heron]

mez or BH makes it a nerf frfr

[subtle wolf]

Two C-tier-at-best characters that interact well

[coral jungle]

I can see that sentiment for clockmaker. But lil' monsta? What's your reason for that?

[subtle wolf]

ST controls game to F3, makes most strategizing obsolete

[winter bobcat]

lemon did you change it like 3 times?

[winter bobcat]

also i believe we have def had this convo before

but to clarify do you mean as evil or as good nick?

[still sedge]

probably good

[winter bobcat]

oh then yeah i fully disagree. its the same logic as an ojo or a spydemon controlling the game until f3 so good should just sit there and wait

like thats only half the kills

[still sedge]

in fairness lil monsta does need to kill its own minions

[winter bobcat]

if its more than half then good is probably screwing up

[still sedge]

but anyway, this is more about bait

[winter bobcat]

fine vig + spy

[winter bobcat]

minions still have abilities to be baited

[still sedge]

literally poisoner only

[winter bobcat]

assassin

godfather

witch

harpy

cere

[still sedge]

that's on you

[still sedge]

this isn't worth baiting

[still sedge]

just have demon candidates nom

[winter bobcat]

i refuse to ascribe to forced behavior metas as a solution for poor opinions

[still sedge]

I mean

is it wrong tho

is that not

good

strategy

[winter bobcat]

its the same as forcing everyone to damsel guess themselves or claim mutant

fearmonger self noms is also 'good strategy'

that doesnt necessarily make it fun or a good habit for groups to get into

[still sedge]

is it

[winter bobcat]

to optimize the fun out of the game

[still sedge]

because you can just

not nom as a non-demon candidate

[winter bobcat]

doesnt refusal to nom make you a potential demon candidate?

like what are you tryna live for

[still sedge]

the info says I'm good

[winter bobcat]

especially with lm, where you are hunting for minions, not just the Demon

[still sedge]

not that kind of meta

[still sedge]

"evil candidate"

[coral jungle]

Absolutely not, I definitely do not have multiple interactions I'm currently agonizing over.

[real heron]

That is not how LM works

The ST should listen to how the evil team want the game to resolve and aim for that as a main goal and then balance etc as top priority just above that (and usually those two things are the same)

Like, I can see the argument, but it’s generally not really as accurate as people tend to say

[quartz girder]

i think mono LM has issues with that but on a script with any direct killing demon it isnt (and also depending on how you run kill choosing ig)

[real heron]

Also just don’t script build major bait roles with LM, it’s not that hard

[subtle wolf]

Both

[subtle wolf]

No evil player interested primarily in winning desires a minion to be killed at night by LM

If evil team desires lined up with ST balancing, the LM minion would choose a kill instead of ST, but there is universal agreement that that would be a broken demon

LM also results in STs monitoring player behavior and, for example, "rewarding" the Ravenkeeper for bluffing well. I'm not in daycare and I don't need someone assessing my play

[still sedge]

Smth smth “let evils tell you what good players to kill and then kill evils instead when necessary”

but I also don’t like lil-Monsta. So I don’t care

It’s for a different reason(I think that level of demon mobility is simply overpowered as a concept, especially with +1 minion, “no bluffs”/arbitrary kills doesn’t counteract this)

[winter bobcat]

esp bc its any player can hold

so immediately breaks when added to plus evils

[still sedge]

And/or lie

[winter bobcat]

theres also some issues with goblin/boom //sw

[still sedge]

I’m more ok with the SW jinx now

[winter bobcat]

if it was restricted to minions i honestly think it would be a lot more balanced

[winter bobcat]

oh yeah much better than it was

it still makes boom/goblin nannies optimal im p sure

[still sedge]

I mean

Boom and goblin suck anyway as sitters

or as interactions themselves tbh

[winter bobcat]

the problem is a preacher or something like it is absolutely necessary for good to have any sort of counterplay to it

otherwise its just wait until SW times out

[subtle wolf]

Talk about interactions–Preacher/Goblin is just lame

[winter bobcat]

Ok but have you tried getting a goblin win off of a bluffed preaching?

Peak

[subtle wolf]

That is a great moment

[still sedge]

so lil Monsta

[winter bobcat]

i mean theres a big difference

not being able to find the demon, vs finding them but being mechanically unable to do anything about it are two different gamestates

[winter bobcat]

however maybe we should circle back to this

wait this is actually kinda interesting

(ik this is bc you wanna put it on bombs and bowties) but still

having actual strategy involved in the day1 babysitting to determine the clock number is an interesting space

[edgy socket]

Clock 5 every time

[cloud sentinel]

I once saw a Demon do this and I was pissed because they were the most obvious ND ever

[coral jungle]

It's Spin Doctoring now btw

[green fiber]

certified witch hunt classic

good interaction

[forest spindle]

2/3 Al-hadikia x Boffin

• there is a soldier on the script

[wooden knoll]

Impervious Al-Had is real

[real heron]

I love al-had boffin and it doesn’t matter what else is on script

I just kinda like boffin with everything

[near kernel]

soldier is probably an outsider on this script; its already weaker with alhad because anyone else picking live repeatedly can almost do its job but boffin means it can't even self-confirm at a cost? would need a high-confirmation town or ways to disprove boffin/prove the boffin is dead for the soldier player to have fun, i think

but alhad boffin without soldier is fun and cool see rtc

[cloud sentinel]

average alhad script: banshee, sage, rk, farmer...

[frigid flower]

Choirboy

[cloud sentinel]

tbh

demon knows the king

the choirboy is a weird demonbane

[frigid flower]

Invite a good player to claim choirboy

Or just let the king be last place

[cloud sentinel]

like the thing with king-choirboy is that the demon knows who to avoid killing

unless it's like ND poisoned or whatever

[subtle wolf]

Bro gave away my idea

[real heron]

Everyone saying this is a bad take. What demon is it not good with?

(tbf, it isn’t what the original statement is, but that was the intention)

[late ingot]

I think the Boffin is workable with most Demons but needs specific Townsfolk/Outsiders on the script to be more valuable than a Spidow?

[wild bridge]

Boffin seems overpowered with Little Monsta, though I suppose much of it depends on what Boffin choice is picked by the Storyteller.

[coral jungle]

It works with most demons in a vacuum (looking at you, lm) but there are a lot of good team formats that make boffin a poor choice.

[real heron]

Yeah that’s fair. Though most interactions we talk about here are 90% vacuum states

[coral jungle]

The issue with the baby is the boffin ability floating makes it extremely difficult to make the ability useful without it being overpowered.

[coral jungle]

Honestly, it's more an thing surrounding clocktower and your phrasing. There is exactly one character in this game that works pretty much everywhere, and it's fisherman.

[winter bobcat]

[2/4]: Big Wig x yaggababble

[tawny haven]

It's usually pretty obvious when someone dies to breaking BW madness so it's something of a non-interaction imo

[late ingot]

Oh, I was thinking in the other direction -- the Big Wig offers up a topic for the group to discuss, at the cost of restricted discussion during nominations?

[coral jungle]

If anything, I think this makes the yag's job harder. Either they have less of an opportunity to say their phrase OR they're on the spot when town will be watching for yag phrases like a hawk.

[frigid flower]

They only have time to say the phrase in townsquare

[wooden knoll]

Make it so that the phrase is nom specific

"You should not kill..."

There suddenly the Big Wig isn't such a nerf anymore

[coral jungle]

2/4 Godfather x Preacher

[frigid flower]

Stars Edge peak interaction

One of the cool giveaway hints in atheist games

[wooden knoll]

...

I don't get it

What does the Preacher do here

[chilly cedar]

Limits who could be responsible for a Godfather kill

Works if it isn't a highly death mod script like BMR

[frigid flower]

It hyper works in Stars Edge (The Yaggabable takes all the credit for it working)

[subtle wolf]

Lol imagine Yagga/Goblin where evil players all say the phrase 20 times on D1 and claim Goblin

[cloud sentinel]

😭

[green fiber]

and this is exactly why yagga is a “might”

[cloud sentinel]

tbh you shouldnt be killing more than like 3 people in a day

[subtle wolf]

Milk said if the demon gets away with saying the phrase enough and good doesn’t execute, the demon deserves to win and he will kill off town and end the game

I’ve never played with Yagga so idk but that’s hilarious

[cloud sentinel]

in this scenario it's really unfair

[unborn trellis]

Yeah but this one is like, dumb

[cloud sentinel]

because on d1 most towns don't have a way to differentiate demon and goblin

[unborn trellis]

Also this literally works for non goblin minions

And it’s even more dumb

[cloud sentinel]

also, a lot of scripts dont have proper tools such as town crier, savant, dreamer, preacher, flowergirl.....

also for savant you need to give info about minions/demons

[subtle wolf]

Oh totally, that’s why I find it so funny

[cloud sentinel]

it's funny until you're good and lose n2 because the ST decided that 9 people should die

[subtle wolf]

Well how did you not realize that the same guy said “Yea I suspect there are extra outsiders” nine times XD

[cloud sentinel]

well I noticed it

but 3 people said the same

and they were all claiming goblin

in that scenario you might execute someone sure, but oops. they were the cerenovus, skill issue, gg, cry about it

[subtle wolf]

Oh with Goblin yea, that’s completely unfair and not fun

[cloud sentinel]

also some yag phrases are very sneaky

I've seen "Evil is winning" as a phrase

and General was a bluff....

[subtle wolf]

Bruh that seems too easy

[cloud sentinel]

like that shit just sneaks so easily

[winter bobcat]

just be a better st i guess?

[coral jungle]

That was Patters by the way. And it was "Is evil really winning?" not "evil is winning"

[fringe mirage]

a lot of what was said by other people, but also, you can stop a Godfather from learning Outsiders if you snipe them

[lime kraken]

IIRC he changed it from the former to the latter partway through because “is evil really winning” felt too tough

[cloud sentinel]

☝️

[tulip sage]

[2/5]

Marionette x Knight

[cloud sentinel]

Interesting, you could give the Knight one of their kneighbours

I remember being the Knight and solving the demon with my info (+ a bunch of other info), it was either them or I was the Mario

turns out my Knight info solved the game

[weak ingot]

Knight on neighbours is kinda mid since your neighbours are most likely not the Demon if you're not Marionette anyway

Knight ping someone else

[cloud sentinel]

that's the thing

you dont know youre the mario

the interaction between this two doesnt go too far

[weak ingot]

that's the thing, it doesn't matter whether you're mario

knowing that your ping is on a neighbour matters nothing

you play the same way anyway

put the pings on the entire evil team while you're at it

[chilly cedar]

A Knight ping on the Marionette can create a socially good player who isn't the demon

Which, depending on the Marionette's character, is pretty nice

A Marionette knight is like, okay

[cloud sentinel]

like ig you can have the knight ping on a mario if imp is in play but that's not very good for the knight

[winter bobcat]

i mean thats any minion on a imp script

[cloud sentinel]

mario is more likely to be socially good

whatever that means

[forest spindle]

imp knight dont mix well imo

[cloud sentinel]

socials arent real

ive been able to bluff "socially evil but just the poppygrower"

[coral jungle]

Info's not real

I've been able to bluff a high info game into one with no info

[cloud sentinel]

Socials are also not based on anything

Actually where's the social reading copypasta?

[tulip sage]

the main thing that worries me about this interaction is that a Marionette who thinks they are the Knight either has to see the Demon they neighbor as a non-Demon, or it has to give true info

and if it's the former it's really suspicious unless you make real Knights see their neighbor as a non-Demon too

but if the good team ever finds out that a Knight claim saw a neighbor, they'd always want to kill that neighbor

[fringe mirage]

2/6: Drunk x King

[wooden knoll]

Uhhh

Hmmm

Kind of a non-interaction

[winter bobcat]

Add a vortox to the mix and it cooks

King seeing the role the drunk thinks they are is peak

[near kernel]

it's interesting to learn the drunk is alive (-> all dead info is sober)

[winter bobcat]

depending on what else is on script yeah

also making the king The Drunk and giving out the bluffs is also pretty solid

i also believe a demon wouldn't know who the DrunKing is

so it tells em right away if they out that theyre the drunk

[near kernel]

this also means you might want to give king as a bluff (usually it's free like lunatic)

[winter bobcat]

the problem is you generally don't want to give the Drunk's seen TF as a bluff

as a general rule

[near kernel]

yeah sorry i just mean on drunk scripts king is a viable bluff because otherwise the demon may be scared of doubleclaiming the drunk king

anyway also an adjacent interaction is drunk-choirboy which means a good player can see the cb token with no king in play which normally isn't possible

so king bluff can signal that a cb is drunk too

[twilit wedge]

and it can set up a demon to be super trusted via the drunk choirboy

overall i think its a fun combination that has a nice level of nuance

[cloud sentinel]

Give the No Dashii Choirboy as a bluff when no King is in play and see if they catch on

[green fiber]

2/7: Butler x Fang Gu

[weak ingot]

Fire

[forest spindle]

Butler will have a hard time trying to hide

[tawny haven]

A fun thing to do as a demonbane is to do Butler voting to try and get jumped

and then proc as the Banshee or whatever

[weak ingot]

don’t worry chat it‘s Yor

[obsidian trout]

Do they learn when they die or

[still sedge]

It’s a weird voting pattern, but it’s not zealot

[winter bobcat]

[2/8]: lycanthrope x bounty hunter

@mossy creek

[mossy creek]

This one was ultimately inspired by you btw

Currently building a real Rescripted submission

[winter bobcat]

Oh nice

[real heron]

I think it’s kinda cringe because the BH TF and the faux paw (if TF or Drunk or so) is mechanically indistinguishable and an Evil TF is less socially distinct from the rest of the evils imo

[winter bobcat]

Bh can help you find the fp at least

[chilly cedar]

Finding the FP at the cost of seeing an evil, when you add +1 evil, is really rough

[subtle wolf]

This combo is unfortunate and doesn’t have a strong upside

Both townsfolk would be the loudest personalities in their village

Lycan removes the possibility of demon accidentally killing BH evil townsfolk

[fervent basalt]

2/9: Boomdandy x Atheist

[coral jungle]

Star's Edge engine. Pretty good choice for an aspiring atheist builder.

[fervent basalt]

do people usually run that you can execute the storyteller by pointing at them (or otherwise) during a boomdandy explosion?

[chilly cedar]

No

No I am incorrect

I think they do

I have just realised I'm not sure

I likely would but I don't know about others

[tawny haven]

yes

[real heron]

I think its a matter of not pointing for app games and just regular pointing for in person etc

[tawny haven]

on an Atheist script, it's common practice to allow players to point to the Storyteller if they believe it's an Atheist game

[coral jungle]

Technically not RAW but it's a good house rule.

[weak ingot]

pretending we run everything RAW would get us clocked by gordon ramsey

[green fiber]

[character that normally can be defused/dealt with by executing them] + boomdandy is usually a good combo and this is no exception

[winter bobcat]

you can also use atheist to fake a boom by breaking the rules

[subtle wolf]

I like this interaction because it means I don’t have to play long atheist games if the ST always fakes a ‘Dandy explosion on D1

[frigid flower]

Its on steven medway atheist guide

[frigid flower]

I like to frame the atheist as spy/drunk

[tawny haven]

2/10: Artist / Heretic

The thinking here is that an Artist who asks about a Heretic and gets an affirmative answer effectively becomes a Heretic themselves in that they have to lie their ass off about it to the evil team, so it's a risky question to ask -- meaning its place on a Heretic script in the first place is in question

[frigid flower]

Need more Heretic scripts dawg

Its heretic bad with Vortox

[tawny haven]

Not really imo

[late ingot]

The Artist does still have an easier time of it than the Heretic does, since the Artist at least has the token part of their bluff locked down

[real heron]

I think you can just not ask about a heretic and it’s fine

[frigid flower]

Vortox?

[sudden drift]

An Artist can split the grim & XOR with a heretic.

That gives them direction for who to execute, at the cost of not being able to reveal the info

[chilly cedar]

It gives something else for the artist to ask about

[frigid flower]

How many reasons for an artist to ask bs can one add to a script?

[sudden drift]

• Lleech, Heretic, and Legion might all encourage an Artist to be more Fisherman-esque? Ask about who to execute instead of who's the demon
• Demon mobility encourages holding the question, & not just splitting the grim
• Vortox is Vortox

[chilly cedar]

2/10: Seamstress x Xaan

[wild bridge]

Depending on how load-bearing the Xaan’s poison is on a script, it might encourage later than usual seamstress ability usage.

[chilly cedar]

Ye

I was thinking that vertical droiosn means whenever seamstress wants to use it, they'll be equally sober

By tying the droison to a specific night, the seamstress needs to figure out how to time their ability

[sudden drift]

I prefer Xaan with "once per game during the day" abilities, because if a Seamstress holds it and hears 2 outsider claims D1, then it kinda hurts to wait until N3. But still good interaction

[subtle wolf]

I’m not convinced this is a good interaction. I think I would default to using Seamstress N1 here, because if my info is poisoned, it’s poisoned in a game with only one Outsider instead of two or three. Poisoned seamstress info can be overcome if good benefits from low outsider count; poisoned seamstress could be a disaster in a game with three outsiders.

[near kernel]

seamstress is a ysk and xaan is good with ysks that cant immediately know if theyre healthy :p

[frigid flower]

Seamstress is once per game

For a reason

[chilly cedar]

i do think coral is joking

[coral jungle]

Seamstress is less good with Xaan and more the townsfolk Seamstress is good with are good with Xaan. Therefore, Seamstress is good with Xaan.

The above statement, by the way, is not how clocktower interactions work. For example: Assassin is good with Gossip; Assassin is good with Yaggababble. Therefore, Gossip is good with Yaggababble.

However, the fact that Seamstress does work with Xaan is true nonetheless.

[weak ingot]

Assassin is to Gossip what DA is to Pacifist

(/demitrue /joking)

[wary solstice]

-# The not so humble 'Prester John' enters the chat.

[winter bobcat]

cough cough
-# gary cooper says hi

[forest spindle]

I think once per game in general has a great synergy with Xaan since it gives rewarding counterplay by solving the outsider count

[winter bobcat]

[2/11]: Alchemist x Vigormortis

[obsidian trout]

Half of quadjank

[tawny haven]

Good reason to explain why Minion abilities are around longer than they should when, like, the Demon is claiming Alchemist with the vig-killed ability

[winter bobcat]

Also i was thinking about common minions?

[coral jungle]

Harpy, assassin, etc

These guys combo well together

[tawny haven]

Cerenovus is a fun one

Alch-OG is incredibly strong against a Vigor team, since it's a way for good to turn off a vigorkilled OG ability (the same way Preacher often balances as extremely strong against Vigor)

Boffin is a fun support Minion, but needs to be scripted carefully to allow utility for both an Alchemist and a Minion. Wizard is Wizard.

I personally like Alch-Witch but it's undeniably group-dependent — groups that are more likely to pressure cursed players to nominate in unfun ways may not have as good a time

[winter bobcat]

Now the kicker: ?

[cloud sentinel]

killed by

[late ingot]

I don't love alch-Psycho

but I generally don't love the alch anyways

[tawny haven]

imo alch-psycho is super broken

so I don't love it

vigor-psycho is funny, though whether or not it's good is dubious

either way you lose the main strength of the interaction because the demon can't claim alch-psycho while the dead psycho keeps swinging

[jaunty tapir]

interesting, I wouldn't think it's that strong? seeing as preacher shuts off all minions and OG only has a 50% chance to. The alch will likely die before f3, and also a turned off OG tends to be fine because it obscures vigor/whether the OG is alive

[cloud sentinel]

Alch-Psycho is strong because you basically get an extra kill each day

Which may or may not be an evil player

[winter bobcat]

[2/12]: Vortox x Fisherman

[fringe mirage]

Fish works fine on Vortox scripts & is fine Vortox bait

But you also need to be an ST who actually runs Fish well

[wary solstice]

Some great Fisherman advice has the Fisherman thinking "Why??" when being given their advice. The advice should be followed, but the Fisherman has no immediate clue why it is correct but doesn't need to know right away.

With Vortox though as a possible demon, it adds another interesting layer, as that 'Why' becomes much more important to figuring out first.

[forest spindle]

EXECUTE THE GOBLIN I DARE YOU

[rose oriole]

I feel like this is a bad interaction as it encourages melting the fisherman into a mech info character which it’s not meant to be

[coral jungle]

Spin Doctoring interaction. I'm not sure on it but everyone thinks it's good.

[weak ingot]

[13/2]: Bounty Hunter – Poppygrower

[frigid flower]

Night vision goggles bebe

[fringe mirage]

Bounty Hunter needs to be more careful because they might lead evil back to their allies

I like it

[real heron]

Also Boffin/BH I think is neat but is either too strong (considering setup effects) or just kinda meh (not considering setup)

But I think the BH/poppy interaction is super neat

[wooden knoll]

Cue "A Shot In The Dark" by NRB

[unborn trellis]

it helps BH since demon can't default kill BH who outs d1

[real heron]

I mean a thing you can do is just show a minion n1 and then the evil townsfolk in the following ping to encourage demons to not immediately kill the BH

[unborn trellis]

not rlly

[real heron]

Then how is the poppy environment much different?

[unborn trellis]

they don't know if it's the BH

it can very much be a minion

[real heron]

Do minions bluff BH much in a PG game? That seems kinda risky, no?

[unborn trellis]

BH is the finest thing to double claim imo

[real heron]

I’m more thinking about the potential of just pushing on a genuinely evil person and accidentally killing your demon

[unborn trellis]

town is more likely to push on your demon than you

shrug

[tawny haven]

It's tough. I personally lean more toward ruling that the Fisherman shouldn't be affected by the Vortox, because it's much more powerful, fun, and actionable that way, but it's really fun to give bad advice in a Vortox game.

(Like, I know rules as intended, the Fisherman gets unhelpful advice in a Vortox game, but from a fun perspective I've more recently been trying the reverse and it's been way more fun)

[green fiber]

NVG 😍😍😍

[coral jungle]

Hey, can I call the next interaction? I have one I need to think about.

[real heron]

It’s currently the 14th for me if you want to do it rn (unless we had an agreed time?)

[coral jungle]

Ok sure

[2/14] General x Vortox

[winter bobcat]

i think weve done this before?

[coral jungle]

We did fisherman vortox before too

Also we actually haven't done this before

[winter bobcat]

for some reason it didnt load when i searched for it 🤷

oh but yeah, with this interaction it really depends on what star you are running

and even then, its not particularly great

like itd be one thing if it was interpretable as learn which team is losing. but its not

[real heron]

Different people have different formats for how they do the entry for the day

Found it

[winter bobcat]

also vortox just shows up a lot here ig

[real heron]

Yeah vortox is a common character cause some interactions are completely ass and sometimes people are just scared of vortox

For instance, I think General is bad with Vortox cause it makes the (already weak) info kind of weaker

Like, sure you know who isn’t winning (or if you do 5-star it’s even worse), but you can also just… have reliably actionable info instead

[winter bobcat]

yeah; you build one script with Vortox, Sleeping Leviathan, and Lycanthrope, and suddenly you're the bad guy

[real heron]

what?

[winter bobcat]

what?

[winter bobcat]

lowkey people should run general more like the Augury spell in DnD

like i personally think it might be a more fun character that way

[real heron]

I think that’s only feasible in some modes of play

[winter bobcat]

ok ykw im actually just gonna put this in hb disc or wtv

[real heron]

But Fish can absolutely be done like that (though it’s more about ‘do this thing’ rather than ‘if you think this way, alignment is winning’)

[winter bobcat]

lets get back to gen/vort

[weak ingot]

yeah my general info from the scale of size of a breadbasket to a garbage truck was the square root of pi

[winter bobcat]

so you learned 3?

[tawny haven]

best with 3-star general because you can actually reverse the info

[real heron]

The square root of pi is like 1.8 or something

[winter bobcat]

its an engineer joke

[real heron]

Wait but ;-;
Why does the square root have the same value as the original?

[winter bobcat]

because its close enough for engineers

[tawny haven]

in my personal experience Generals can usually use their info to solve for Vortox if their internal vibes don't match the info they're getting, which I think is cool

[real heron]

They linearised sine and I had enough with that, they can’t just be unrooting square roots like that

[real heron]

That seems like something that requires experience though

[still sedge]

General in general requires experience to make it better

[real heron]

Yeah that’s true

[subtle wolf]

Y’all are tripping. General/Vortox is a great interaction because 3-star General should be standard practice and the info is somewhat reversible

ST can use their choice between two false options to craft a narrative that fits non-Vortox worlds

[unborn trellis]

It's harsh bc it only works if town consciously build vortox & non vortox simutaneously without any bias toward either side

if town build vortox you get evil winning regardless

if town build non vortox you get good winning regardless

The moment general realizes "oof the general opinion is towards vortox/non vortox"

their info tonight is ass

[winter bobcat]

You could still be building Jim demon in non vortox worlds

Where Jim is the vortox

[unborn trellis]

it's most likely not a thing

See i don't like this bc opinion on vortox/non vortox is a thing

normally it's like if you have sus on evil, good
sus on good, bad

but the vortox/non vortox worldbuilding can override that

say town correctly pushes on non vortox

then it can just be good winning regardless of which players they're susing at the moment

[coral jungle]

"Bullshit nonsense bollocks crap therefore Chris is the demon."

That was a brilliant game

[unborn trellis]

but that just removes general info now bc it cannot check if vortox/non vortox is being built correctly

[rose oriole]

Personally I don't like it when interesting and unique characters melt into vortox checkers when paired with Vortox. Artist and Juggler give the player the choice, but I'm not one to, say, give the Oracle a 42 every night and I'm absolutely not running RAW Amnesiac with Vortox.

As for General, yeah it seems like it would really turn into a confirmation bias character where if it's Vortox and you build another demon, the General either kinda fails at its only job or becomes "you eventually learn it's a Vortox game or you're droisoned".

[frigid flower]

Hope next one is HP and Magician

[coral jungle]

Question number 2, do we think this is better or worse than fish/vortox?

[frigid flower]

Heretic and its fine

[fervent basalt]

I think it's worse than fish/vortox but I also think it's fine

fish/vortox is good imo, general/vortox is like okay

depending on how it's ran at least

[real heron]

I have an interaction I want to do for tomorrow

[real heron]

[2/15] Golem x Fang Gu

[winter bobcat]

Golems shouldn't live to f3 anyway

[rose oriole]

Provides more incentive to exe an early successful Golem

[subtle wolf]

On scripts with one death per night, you just treat F4 as F3 with golem alive. Doesn’t even cost an execution. Not an outsider

Might be different with Fang Gu

[coral jungle]

I don't like this interaction. Sure it gives the golem incentive to hide, but the fang gu jumping to the golem is a horrible idea since they're an outed outsider.

[winter bobcat]

it depends if they're succesful or not

it also permits jumped fanggus to not nom without being sus

[still sedge]

consider: be fang gu and don't kill the golem

profit because you frame them as fang gu

[winter bobcat]

and keep an evil nom alive until town wastes an exe

[tawny haven]

I don't love this interaction. An outed Golem is just waiting for death the same way a Saint is in a Fang Gu game, which incentivizes self-punching, which isn't an incredibly fun playstyle

I think it can work with something like Godfather in the mix to disincentivize that, because that leads to Golems holding it? But it's tough to find a good balance for.

[fringe mirage]

2/16: Drunk x Cerenovus

[frigid flower]

Weakest ceremad ever

[rose oriole]

On the other hand, you can't argue that you're specificall the Drunk if you're ceremad (without breaking madness)

[real heron]

It’s kinda meh and mostly a non-interaction cause I don’t think many people are making people ceremad as the Drunk

[fringe mirage]

I did have a game where i lost by execting a Saint who was ceremad as Drunk D1, but that was Saint, not Drunk

[real heron]

Yeah no saint/cere is real bad lol

[edgy socket]

Good interaction, very strong madness in the right circumstance

I think these replies are assuming you randomly make arbitrary people mad as the drunk n1 which is very weak

[tawny haven]

hey sometimes they snipe the saint who gets into an invest tripleclaim in a vizier game

[tawny haven]

oh hey that was me

[tawny haven]

anyway this can be brutal if used deliberately later on in the game, good interaction

[wooden knoll]

Offscript mutant

Like how do you even mad as Drunk

[spare hinge]

Genuinely just go "Honestly idt my info is making any sense, [insert info, maybe peppered with some bs you made up], I think I'm just the Drunk atp"

[late ingot]

"Hey, please ignore my previous information since I don't think any of it works" is a great late-game pivot (and is often far more natural than a lot of late pivots)

[subtle wolf]

[wooden knoll]

I see

Yes I can see how that would be devastating

[lime kraken]

"Guys I swear I got the Drunk token you have to believe me"

[winter bobcat]

[2/17]: Vizier x Damsel

[frigid flower]

Anti synergy

[sudden drift]

Uhhhhh
At least making a Damsel guess doesn't cost anything for the Vizier

[winter bobcat]

yeah that was the original reason i asked about this interaction

[still sedge]

"Oh I found a non-demon. I can out to them"

[winter bobcat]

quadjank moment

[fringe mirage]

think its a bad trade for the viz. Sure, you can guess for free but one less person who can actually find the Damsel

[coral jungle]

I mean, everything is a bad trade for the viz

[real heron]

Also I think that if the vizier is guessing based on what an evil player told them, back-tracing is not that hard

[real heron]

[2/18] Magician x Lleech

I’m curious what people think, I honestly don’t know how to evaluate it

[coral jungle]

Host the magician do it do it you know you want to.

[green fiber]

i mean it makes it so you don’t want to kill either of them which can be a plus?

[subtle wolf]

Lleech can be more open with their possible minions since it’s not the end of the world to be found out

Consequently, with Lleech on script, Magician can bluff Lleech to random people hoping they’re a minion

[wooden knoll]

Except you don't know who is the Magician

[coral jungle]

Don't explain the joke.

[wooden knoll]

Was that supposed to be a joke

Sorry

Lemme put the bunny back in the top hat

[tawny haven]

homescript (miss register) interaction raaaaah

but yeah this is fun

[fervent basalt]

this might feel bad for certain minions (mainly killing ones) if they don't know who the host is

[chilly cedar]

having someone who is less likely to be a lleech host is nice

timezones are weird

[18/02] (or 19 idk timezones)

Widow x Acrobat

[fringe mirage]

Good: Widow can function on death puzzles and acrobat is fun detection

[jaunty tapir]

I think it's a really good interaction

you can find the widow poison or the widow can self-poison to frame themself as the widow poison

it can be tough to make widow work in deathmod environments but I think it's cool

[winter bobcat]

Would they have to claim to hear the ping then?

[jaunty tapir]

yeah

[winter bobcat]

Yeah at the higher ends of deathmod grimmpeekers can get tricky

[jaunty tapir]

or they can sell themself as any other kind of droison and not claim the ping but yeah

[winter bobcat]

Ig you could tell your other minion to claim it when you co wake

[forest spindle]

Acrobat learns widow is in play: objective confirmed

[frigid flower]

Can we have like 7 days straight of bad lycanthrope interactions

Just had a game where the lycanthropes faux paw was the Mayor.

[unborn trellis]

how bad can it be

[frigid flower]

Evil won

Evil mayor win

False evil mayor win

Well not like that really

Cannibal who has eaten the faux paw mayor lose.

[obsidian trout]

To be clear if the good mayor is the faux paw the good team still wins off a mayor win

[unborn trellis]

the cannibal is unironically poisoned

also like, you need lycan, mayor and demon to all live til final 3

also it doesn't impact which team wins by mayor

[real heron]

No that’s messed up. Was the lycan still alive at that point?

[winter bobcat]

yeah this feels like an ST mistake than a bad rules interaction

[real heron]

If the lycan, canni, and demon are all alive in f3 then it’s fine just mega mega cursed and bad ST decisions

If not, it’s an outright mistake and mechanically not how that should have worked

[unborn trellis]

they're poisoned

what do they even do

[real heron]

Yes, so evil loses

[unborn trellis]

thoughts on demon not being executed in final 3

[frigid flower]

And even worse it was Vigormortis with the minion being DA

And the demon was DA protected

So it was fault of the Lycanthope xd._.

[real heron]

What script has these four characters on it?

[winter bobcat]

A bad one?

[frigid flower]

Lunar Eclipse by Milk?

[summer adder]

wolf in sheep's clothing

wait

whats the four here, i see five characters

[frigid flower]

Mayor lycanthrope DA Vigormortis

[summer adder]

okay then yea, wisc

[frigid flower]

Yeah it was such a bummer because the demon was fealing defeated

Like they tried to nom themselves

[real heron]

Did they know they were DA protected?

[frigid flower]

No.

They just were desperate for stopping the Cannibal Mayor win.

[lime mantle]

Lunar Eclipse is not by Milk, it’s by me 😅

[frigid flower]

Ayeeee

Sorry

I confuse you too

Two*

Love your scripts ekin

[lime mantle]

Faux Paw never impacts win conditions by the way, that was an ST fiat

[frigid flower]

I forgot cannibal too

[coral jungle]

Oof, canni poisoned? Wow, that's rough. Not a bad interaction, just unlucky

The ST ran this correctly. Canni eats faux paw mayor, gets poisoned. Vigor-killed devil's avocado protects demon.

*role lycanthrope

[pure raft]

Lycanthrope (Townsfolk) - Experimental

Each night*, choose an alive player. If good, they die & the Demon doesn't kill tonight. One good player registers as evil.

**Affects Setup: **False

[coral jungle]

As long as the lycan was alive, then this was entirely correct.

Anyway, not a bad interaction. Not much to say here, good way to combine SnV with some BMR

[lime mantle]

If they said Cannibal got an evil Mayor win, that’s wrong. The way you outlined is right.

[coral jungle]

*role cannibal

[pure raft]

Cannibal (Townsfolk) - Experimental

You have the ability of the recently killed executee. If they are evil, you are poisoned until a good player dies by execution.

**Affects Setup: **False

[unborn trellis]

[2/20] Preacher x vigor

There is a 25% chance you need to pick night dead players now

but do you pick

[coral jungle]

This is a bad interaction. Vigor getting bodied is not a good thing

Here's a reaction from the last time we did this

This interaction is good on specifically Quadjank.

[frigid flower]

Yeah, it it was stretch to call it that, the cannibal was poisoned

[frigid flower]

When is the bodying the Lleech competition opening

Im all in on

[still sedge]

dude it's sailor

actually no

courtier

kill the host?

win

kill the Lleech?

win

[frigid flower]

Courtier is cheating 😭

[still sedge]

it's the best at it

it bodies it harder than any other role

[winter bobcat]

minstrel?

[still sedge]

true

exo

[winter bobcat]

alchsassin?

[still sedge]

me when choose again

[winter bobcat]

yeah you get choose again on outed lleech and one other person (the host)

i mean alch poisoner is pretty good too

[unborn trellis]

alch pithag is always better

[real heron]

Vigor deserves good things

[subtle wolf]

[2/21] Al-Hadikhia x Mayor

Idk if I’m allowed to choose the interaction, sorry!

[still sedge]

Use # before your statement

Like this:

word

Add a space

[subtle wolf]

test

Thx

[still sedge]

It’s definitely a confirmatory mayor bounce

This one’s kind of sucky unless you have boffin due to “super confirmed mayors should die”

[subtle wolf]

What if you bounce it inside the Alan’s choices?

[still sedge]

I mean, people just don’t lie about their AlHad choices that much

[subtle wolf]

Evils + Poli?

[still sedge]

If the demon isn’t in the choices they won’t lie

and even then… you get

“3 die(3 die, but one is outside the pair or the demon/mayor died)”

“2 die(Mayor chose live, evil and someone else chose die, evil lies… proves nothing)

“2 die(Mayor says they chose die, evil and someone else chose die, evil lies: proves Demon as mayor maybe?)

1 dies, evil dies, Demon claims mayor and says they picked die… if both said they lived minion would die confing mayor?

Yeah the bluff requires murdering a minion or never picking yourself

[subtle wolf]

Another aspect of this is it may not be the end of the world to soft-confirm a Mayor. Alan can win going to sleep on F4 and even F5, making Mayor win con obsolete. Also, if Mayor is targeted on F4 or F5, they may choose to die, and ST would let it through if that helps the good team

[still sedge]

That’s fair

[subtle wolf]

Killing three at night in exchange for confirming a Mayor might be balanced. Weird dynamic for both characters

[still sedge]

Mayor should always pick die

Who needs to pick 3

their choosing to die causes a bounce

[subtle wolf]

Mayor who chooses die might lead to a 4-death night

[real heron]

It’s not even close to 21st but is ok

Uhmm… kind of :/ cause mayor needs to not be confirmed for it to be balanced but then also feels bad if it just gets one-shot

I think solo al-had doesn’t want mayor and I think mayor is hard to justify for other demons on a multi-demon with al-had

*role Mayor

[pure raft]

Mayor (Townsfolk) - Trouble Brewing

If only 3 players live & no execution occurs, your team wins. If you die at night, another player might die instead.

**Affects Setup: **False

[real heron]

Can you ‘kill’ a dead player with a mayor bounce? Maybe less awful if so

[chilly cedar]

You are allowed of course nick

Mayor bounce alhad within choices is fairly interesting

There is another angle that does make this not the strongest interaction

Which is that alhad is a multi kill demon

So you might not get to a final 3 to begin with

[tawny haven]

Demons that can skip F3 usually aren't great with the Mayor, and I don't see a reason why this is an exception

as aforementioned by others the bounce also tends to confirm the Mayor as the Mayor to other good players, which is really strong

In terms of balance on Al-Had, Soldier probably fills the role better? It can confirm itself similarly, but results in two other players dying in a triple

[frigid flower]

Lunatic sinergy

[forest spindle]

There might be a argument for alhad giving players a small amount of agency where other multikill just kills. But still not great

[fringe mirage]

I love it when I can’t get my Mayor win 😭

[unborn trellis]

It makes mayor bounce stronger

But mayor win no exist

[jaunty tapir]

yeah it's probably either too strong or too weak (to the point of having no ability), I'd not script them together and would do either soldier for the tempo and trust required or alsahiir/slayer for the wincon

[sudden drift]

Mayor/Al-Had is bad for multiple reasons

but is there any kind of deathmod that works well with Al-Had?

[coral jungle]

[unborn trellis]

i mean soldier is fine

you need both other 2 ppl to choose live, then die to confirm them

[tawny haven]

Normal science (sailor/tl/fool) is usually okay

[spare hinge]

Yeah science works

[unborn trellis]

mustardmind work

[spare hinge]

see Reptiles II or A Gecko in the Night Sky

[winter bobcat]

[2/21]: Flowergirl x Lloyd

[fringe mirage]

I didnt know Lloyd was the name

jokes aside, its a decent interaction

the Demon can vote more freely knowing that its not the end of the world if they get executed

But the ST has to be careful givintg false info a Flowegril host because if the Lleech is outed and the Flowergirl remembers, they will know they are host

[summer adder]

its kind of rough on the flowergirl, because the only thing it can do is help find the lleech faster

[subtle wolf]

Lleech being found out is a serious advantage for the good team

The real reason this interaction doesn’t work is that Flowergirl doesn’t work with anything because Flowergirl is a bad character

[still sedge]

Flowergirl works with like

not having cringe metas high demon mobility

and vortox

[jaunty tapir]

Yeah I don't really like this interaction because I think that it'd feel bad to give a lleech hosted flowergirl either true or false info

Like if you ever give false info then the lleech is executed, the flowergirl immediately knows they're the host

[coral jungle]

This interaction is bad not because these characters are bad together but because these characters don't work with the characters the other one works with. Flowergirl is stupid strong and you need some sort of demon mobility to script it. Lleech is notorious for liking demon mobility a little too much.

[tawny haven]

Lleech is just kinda rough with Demon-finders in general

Like, it's not that Flowergirl is badly-designed (I think it's pretty cool) but that the Lleech is kinda tough to Storytell with characters that can provably tell they're droisoned by getting pings on the outed Demon

I think Lleech/FT is similarly bad because you're instantly a major host candidate if you get a NO on an outed Lleech

[late ingot]

I... think this can work? I don't think it's always super easy, but I've seen scripts where both of these characters seemed to fit fine.

Probably don't give a hosted Flowergirl a "no" on the Lleech who's about to come under scrutiny, but reaching a final 3 where town has one demon candidate and doesn't know whether they're the Lleech or a demon worth killing is pretty fun!

[edgy socket]

Flowergirl often seems to be the demonfinder most interesting with Lleech or LM (both fundamentally weird demons) for different reasons

Flowergirl info being kind of weird and janky isn't unexpected

It does rapidly make the Flowergirl a host candidate if they get a no on a later-outed lleech but this is a mix of "don't get outed lol" and having misinfo elsewhere

For sober flowergirls, having demonfinders the lleech can counter is "let roles have nice things" and flowergirl can be an especially strong demonfinder so it reasonably tempers the role

(discovering the lleech is still good for town)

[late ingot]

Curious about your read on Flowergirl/LM -- I see them both fitting well on the sorts of scripts you enjoy, though I haven't thought through their direct interaction super hard beyond "a perfect longtext Flowergirl is still unlikely to solo an LM game"

[winter bobcat]

with perfect vote tracking, a flowergirl is more akin to a town crier in an lm game, assuming there isnt an extra evil

where you are trying to isolate people who have held the baby in the past and are therefore likely evil and may do so in the future if left alive

I think LM is hardest on FG in the following order

1. Longhold then pass to longhold
2. hypermobile
3. permanent hold all game / Like day 1 scarcatch w/ new jinx

[unborn trellis]

Hard: yes
Useless: no

[edgy socket]

Flowergirl's homescript can have demon mobility at the level of the most intense LM mobility -- I've run a 5 day SnV game with 4 different players as the demon (no dashii killed sage n2, pithag turned the witch into the fang gu n3, fang gu got philo-snakecharmed n4, new fang gu jumped to good twin mutant n5)

So Flowergirl is written under the assumption that some games will just be Like That and it's a reasonable counter rather than a total invalidation

Fortune Teller has enough choking its power to actually isolate demons that it feels kind of worse

Simultaneously LM demon mobility is not actually at that level most games -- LM is a spicy Imp sidegrade at heart

So the average Flowergirl/LM game has a reasonable but not gamebreaking Flowergirl ability in the same sort of way it would tend to in Imp games

[wary solstice]

Flowergirl + LM also means if the Flowergirl lives long enough that their information becomes nonsensical (no one is a proper demon to them), it strongly points to LM which can be crucial information in world building

[unborn trellis]

Flower girl lm is fine bc flowergirl is strong

[wary solstice]

If there's other demon types, worlds built with those demon types either are implausible with Flowergirl info or require Flowergirl to be Evil

[unborn trellis]

If flowergirl somehow is weak on its own the interaction would be bad

[fringe mirage]

2/22: Klutz x Ogre

[coral jungle]

Well that's one way to learn the ogre's alignment!

[fringe mirage]

tbf, the Ogre could also be lying their ass off when the klutz dies

But hey if the Klutz picks an Ogre and doesnt end, then you get double Klutz fallacy info

or vice versa

[coral jungle]

No clue what the double klutz fallacy is

[fringe mirage]

klutz fallacy is basically that you shouldnt treat Klutz like an info role if it means losing the game

but if you do live, you confirm that player as good. so if you hit an Ogre or their freind, thats a 2 for 1 deal

[coral jungle]

Oh, so it's a bit like Russian Roulette

[fringe mirage]

yea

and you probably shouldnt choose an Ogre claim: they could be evil

or rather, evil even if they are the Ogre

[coral jungle]

Don't pick their friend either.

Though that one is a little softer.

[fringe mirage]

if you trust the friend then pick the friend!!

just dont pick them because they are a friend

(thats techinically true for irl friends as well being klutz picked)

[weak ingot]

3/22: Evil Twin x Spy

[obsidian trout]

I mean

Unless you make the spy the good twin they don't really interact in any meaningful way

And if you do do that I am never playing a game you stroytell ever again

[weak ingot]

i was going to say that Spy can help ET with grim

Spy should never be good twin

[obsidian trout]

But how does that help rather than any other minion?

[weak ingot]

gives twin more credibility maybe? good twin dreamer

[obsidian trout]

I guess

[weak ingot]

i'm going to be so for real i randomly rolled this one

[obsidian trout]

Very few roles that actually benefit off it

[weak ingot]

i mean it's loud minion / quiet minion it's kinda bad

[obsidian trout]

Yeah

[coral jungle]

I don't like the volume implications of these being on script together

[subtle wolf]

On script with Pit-Hag: register Spy as good twin N1. On a later night, register them as evil and ET gets another good twin

[winter bobcat]

See but then that opens you up to registering the spy as good characters to hagblock

[unborn trellis]

Where’s the interaction

I look at this

Erm guys I’m evil twin I need the grim so desperately I want a bluff so bad

Cmon

[fringe mirage]

I assume it’s so that you can sorta bluff twin easer when it’s not in play, as either twins with the demon or a fake twin with good

But neither is a great option

[real heron]

Me when I want to trust my STs

[winter bobcat]

I think more to help twins bluff harder roles like dreamer and stuff

[real heron]

Tbf dreamer twins are wonky on SNV

Depending on the playstyles of players, it’s mega crippling

[tawny haven]

If I see Dreamer twins I'm just assuming it's a Vortox game

[tawny haven]

I don't think they really interact directly in any meaningful way? They're nice to have in LM because they both have their own bluffs

[cloud sentinel]

Spy lets ET bluff more efficiently with roles like Juggler, Savant, Fisherman...

[fringe mirage]

2/24: Empath x Fang Gu

[winter bobcat]

3?

[fringe mirage]

Fixed

[frigid flower]

One of the interactions of all time

[late ingot]

The Fang Gu has an alright time starting next to the Empath compared to many other demons, but an accidental early jump to an Empath neighbor is roughhh

[winter bobcat]

I thought people didn't like this interaction

Bc the fang gu could potentially jump to anyone

So all tf gotta be cagey

[sage sleet]

carryover from coda having "3/22" yesterday

as opposed to 2/23

[fringe mirage]

This is why

[wraith parcel]

It took me like 5 minutes of staring at this to get the joke, I'm dying

[subtle wolf]

To be viable, the script would need several reasons for an Empath number to change without changing neighbors. This is one of the reasons Empath was removed from Caravan

[unborn trellis]

what's the, uh, interaction

[coral jungle]

The empath info changes erratically.

[fringe mirage]

Also to a lesser extent, the Imp thing of letting yourself night kill to get out of Empath

But main reason I chose was because Empath is a constant checker and so has unique potential to learn if someone good turned evil

Which is bad for Fang Gu

[wild bridge]

2/25 Poppygrower X Mastermind

[weak ingot]

Poppygrower on BMRlikes always feels a tad unpolished, but it happens enough that it's fine. this is the sort of interaction i can be picky about and say it kinda makes mastermind more boring to play and interact with, but honestly if you have reasons for Poppy it can be ignored

nonetheless it's still kinda mid

it's not exactly a good interaction? you can say demons deserve a safety net but Mastermind is just not that great at it

[frigid flower]

The demon doesnt know who the mastermind is thou

So they might deathvote on their own minion

[weak ingot]

this is true for all Poppy/Safety interactions

[frigid flower]

Nooo but at least with scarlet they overcome poppy growers problem

Might overcome it.

[weak ingot]

fwiw i prefer Magician MM

[frigid flower]

Honestly me too.

Its funnier

[fringe mirage]

Not sure I see the interaction

I guess the MM can vote on whoever & probably vote someone random if there’s no deaths

I don’t remember if Poppy is on Lunar Eclipise

But Lunatic works on BMR likes and Poppy Lunatic is nice

Also if Vortox Poppy didn’t suck, it might work on a Minuit engine

[frigid flower]

Also on another note, Poppy Grower/Minion bluffing that they are the Mastermind and that they are their minion to the demon/lunatic is something cool that can happen

[wary solstice]

Mastermind has a limited number of script types that it works best in, and one of them strongly disencourages Poppygrower on the script.

BMR is okay with it. Al-Had is funny with it as the Al-Had might need a couple of tries if the jinx is active since they don't know necessarily who to pick.

But with Minuit, nope. Vortox & Lleech there with Poppygrower...

[fringe mirage]

Oh yea, Poppy Lleech on a Minuit like is bad too

[winter bobcat]

[2/26]: Exorcist x Wraith

[fringe mirage]

Could be nice to have the Wriath see who is Excorcist then tell the demon not to kill

And you learn if the Exo hits