Character interaction thingy

[weak ingot]

Everything that applies to Leviathan scripts goes Okay with Pacifist

The Pacifist bluff in itself is pretty potent, though

Earnestly just town’s Use If Emergency button

[unborn trellis]

If you're putting paci leviathan

don't put a DA

and everything else is fine

it's not too different from virgin leviathan

[tawny haven]

the difference is that both of them are alive

instead of the virgin killing one of them

[winter bobcat]

just courtier drunk either and you're fine

[late ingot]

[12/19]

Alchemist x Witch

[rose oriole]

Prepare for a lot of being prompted to choose differently

[still sedge]

Yep

[late ingot]

nah that's for cowards

[still sedge]

Wait actually

No it’s fine as long as the demon is a little more cautious….

Wait

No we’re gonna have pressuring to nom nvm this sucks

[steady kernel]

It’s aight I guess. Evil has more agency compared to stuff like Poisoner and Pit-Hag, which even with the change to Alchemist are still annoying to run in a balanced way

But certainly not the cleanest or most balanced Alchemist ability

[late ingot]

Alch-Witch feels much like a killing traveller to me and comes with similar implicit storytelling caveats: don't allow "forced" nominations in the same way you wouldn't allow "forced" Damsel guesses or Psychopath kills.

[late ingot]

what is your favorite alch ability, out of curiosity?

[tawny haven]

if you reprompt an alch-witch you're a coward

but this is a stellar Alchemist ability imo if your group isn't lame about forcing people to nominate

its presence on a script making the Demon (and evils in general) cagier with noms is very fun

[forest spindle]

Player group makes or breaks this interaction

[frigid flower]

Slightly more balanced alch psychopath

Honestly i really like the script Psychosocial.

[winter bobcat]

Unless they choose a princess n1

[tawny haven]

coward 🫵 🤣

[winter bobcat]

Ok and

Although tbh i prob just wouldn't script them together

[green fiber]

very cool

risks giving evil extra kills but can also kill the demon if they’re not careful

i really like alch witch

[coral jungle]

I find the other way around more interesting. The Witch can, in fact, kill the Alchemist.

[late ingot]

"Hey guys I'm the Alchemist Witch. We should all nominate every day so I can kill freely!" -> statements that make you sound like the Witch

[fervent basalt]

Alchemist-Witch is one of my favourite alchemist abiltiies

however

Fake Alchemist-Witch is the 2nd most powerful townsfolk

[fringe mirage]

Its a good ability

[steady kernel]

Assassin, Cerenovus, and Goblin are probably my favorites personally

[late ingot]

big fan of the first two

[forest spindle]

why do you like cerenovus? The nightwatchman-like info?

[winter bobcat]

alch assassin bluffing gossip is always fun

[steady kernel]

Mostly for evil players being made mad which has always been hilarious in my groups

Not always something that happens so it’s not my favorite but when it does happen, absolute comedy

[green fiber]

oh yeah alch-ceres preventing evil teams from sharing info is amazing

[unborn trellis]

alchemist-witch is like

maybe maybe the group won't pressure someone to nom

but in a large amount of times it's trivial that it's beneficial for good, even if it's a good player who gets killed

so ofc they don't have to nominate

but one can't stop framed good players or on-the-block good players from doing so

and evil players would just die by execution if they don't do so anyway

[fringe mirage]

12/20: Bounty Hunter x Kazali

If the Kazali turns the Bounty Hunter into a Minion, an evil Townsfolk is not created.

[coral jungle]

Well since we don't get an evil townsfolk for no reason, it's not a bad interaction.

[fringe mirage]

I suppose its also nice that the social power of Kazali lets Minions respond decently to being in pings

and the ST chooses the evil TF after the Minions are made, just like a normal Demon. s its a good way to make these two work

[unborn trellis]

Well it's good bc we don't get an evil tf for no reason

comparing to what normally happens with BH

[spice ferry]

Would we put more misinformation on script for that kazali turned minion ?

So that the turned minion can still bluff BH and be able to say “oh I’m poisoned/drunk?”

PM for example.

[unborn trellis]

nah

BH bluff isn't even that hard

cuz you get to insert extra evil whenever someone disprove your world

[spice ferry]

Ok true.

[chilly cedar]

This isn't an opinion I have but I think I can infer an opinion for why this is ok but maybe not excellent

But not a sin

I do like that Minions have an in built bluff to build trust on

However, Kazali has this social thing of "who would pick this player to be a Minion"

Any direct evil pings on a Minion can lead back to the Demon

[edgy socket]

Not a fan of it because of the "backsolving non-arbitrary evil teams" thing

[chilly cedar]

smiles

[real heron]

I think this is a situation where Kazali is stronger cause it’s minions have resilience against a BH ping

Other than that it’s kinda meh tbh

[real heron]

People should just do semi-arbitrary picks as a Kazali imo, idk

[chilly cedar]

They should but unless the Kazali has a random generator on their phone

Kazali picks will always be less arbitrary than a random bag

And being able to choose your own team is part of the character

[real heron]

Yeah I agree. I personally just don’t have a big thing about picking specific players in the groups I play in to be on my team tbh so maybe just a me thing

[weak ingot]

the Kazali counter is Alsaahir

[unborn trellis]

skill issue

[green fiber]

12/21: Vigormortis x Mezepheles

lmk if we’ve done this one already i’m a newgen

[steel kestrel]

good if you're playing with a mez that likes to hold it, but no mez ever does that so it's not the greatest vigorkill

[frigid flower]

Hold it until the last day

3 evils game, last day its 2 evils + 1 good.

Negotiate and win

[edgy socket]

Great support minion -- means the "voices/votes/mechanics" tradeoff of evil powers no longer has to include trading off against alive voting power, so really really good to have in play

Holding mez is not nearly useful enough in almost all gamestates for "vigorkill mez to turn lategame" to be a viable strategy

[wild bridge]

"Yeah I'm totally the Vigor-killed Mez, good player, and you should just trust me and not nominate today"
proceeds to do so
there is no Vigor-killed Mez
the Evil Team wins without a new addition to their ranks

[frigid flower]

I have seen this happen with a fan gu and a outsider on final 3

[humble lantern]

there's a spreadsheet

[unborn trellis]

vigor mez is like

you can vigor kill a blank minion

it's fine

so why can't you vigor kill mez

it's not different

[green fiber]

ty goat

[neon storm]

Gave +1 Thanks to @humble lantern (current: #4 - 2068)

[spare hinge]

I haven't been updating it ftr it's like 3 months out of date 😭

[late ingot]

I've found searching in thread to be effective enough

[forest spindle]

12/22 Ogre X Marionette

[weak ingot]

Ogre having a Marionette best friend is very funny because you now have 2 people who think the Mario info is good

[chilly cedar]

Two sides of the interaction

One bad the other good

But overall I think this is good

The Marionette who thinks they are the Ogre breaks the main dynamic of ogre

Now a player who draws the ogre token can't be sure they share the alignment of who they choose

On the other hand, an Ogre choosing the Marionette is absolute cinema

[weak ingot]

i would deprioritise making an ogre the marionette

[subtle wolf]

What is the voices/votes/mechanics tradeoff

[winter bobcat]

Night Killing minions vs Vig killing minions vs leaving them alive

The social trust of being nightkilled vs still having abilities. And the tradeoff of being a full voter vs only having a deadvote

[edgy socket]

A large share of all abilities in botc, in particular abilities that produce extra evils, trade off somewhere between the three of these

Vigormortis makes a similar tradeoff in that it amplifies voices and mechanics while deamplifying votes

[green fiber]

ok i’m just gonna ask because i keep seeing this term

what is a flagbearer

[winter bobcat]

The demon in this case

Or the host in alleech game

A specific person you have to keep alive while everyone else is expendable

This paradigm can be shifted with cases of demon mobility and is flipped team wise kinda in legion games

[unborn trellis]

mario ogre is yeet

but ogre picking mario is ok

just push with mario believing they aren't mario

and it will benefit evil

the downside however is ogre will claim to town

bc mario said so

if ogre pick an face-up evil they're less likely claiming to town which is misinfo

[forest spindle]

12/23 Spy X King

[frigid flower]

Boooooooooooooo

Bad combo if the spy miss reg

To the king

Bad combo on a normal script too!

Good combo on Leviathan, Riot, Al-had

[forest spindle]

Why is it good with the last mentioned demons?

[obsidian trout]

I mean yeah its kinda awful cuz the spy just... learns if there is a choirboy or not lmao

[frigid flower]

Cant directly kill the king

Choirboy/king + Alhad/spy means that both the king and the choirboy might be targeted so they can choose to die, if and only if they dont know each other, alhad has a big trouble killing the choirboy not directly.

[forest spindle]

What about misreg? Levi/alhad the King gets info. Should you show fake good characters in play?

[frigid flower]

If its solvable yes. If there is a savant or any other role who can just say "they arent what they are claiming!"

Like tell the savant "the last 2 characters the king got, 1 is exactly a bluff"

Village Idiot, empath, fortune teller any character who can counter act the character confirmation that the spy gives can help

[subtle wolf]

Spy/King generally requires a Stormcaught King

[unborn trellis]

I think the misreg is not a big thing with spy/king

spy messes with at most 1 piece of king info
unless we're talking about drunk/poli/goon/orge

also it requires spy to be alive at half

it's more of a spy/choirboy problem but knowing who's choirboy is an issue

[vale frigate]

Can't spy misreg to the king over and over?

[forest spindle]

It technically can

[fringe mirage]

12/24: Athiest x Leviathan

[coral jungle]

That's a fun concept

I don't think you can really judge it without the rest of the script though.

[winter bobcat]

It does mean you can't auto exe atheist claims

[coral jungle]

I think I was talking with Delta about this just yesterday.

[fringe mirage]

Technically you still can, since you aren’t punished for killing Minions

Unless Drunk is on script too

[coral jungle]

Yeah, that seems like a natural third addition

Then probably Baron because o-mod with Drunk

Hmmm.... Maybe I go back to editing 5 Becomes 4 Becomes 3

[fringe mirage]

I almost did Drunk x Athiest, but I was more curious about Levi tbh

[coral jungle]

One thing I love about Atheist is while Drunk is a natural addition to it, it plays really well with basically everything

[fringe mirage]

drunk plays well with basically eerything?

[coral jungle]

Atheist does

It's just Legion and Philo

[fringe mirage]

Depends on how much Athiest is supposed to be a puzzle but otherwise yeah

[late ingot]

I like this one!

[real heron]

I definitely see how it can be great. I think it’s a tricky environment to script build, but nonetheless possible

[jaunty tapir]

I think it's a pretty good pairing, it's a reason to not exe the athiest immediately which is always something I like to see on athiest scripts

[chilly cedar]

It's a good pair

As people have said.
No reason to auto exe the Athiest
Is a nice bluff for Minions to do
Script defining

[still sedge]

People generally run it as "The Leviathan wincon is still active in Athiest games"

[chilly cedar]

I don't think there is any special reason to do that though I get the idea in theory

[jaunty tapir]

or just "after 3 executions, evil wins" to take into account a potential evil dead (but that still will often happen by d5)

[still sedge]

there isn't but it feels right

[chilly cedar]

Like good needs to be pretty certain it's Athiest for them to execute so recklessly

Maybe it does feel right!

I personally wouldn't ST it like that, but I may come to the same conclusion after seeing it in action

[obsidian trout]

If I'm sting an atheist levi game I am definitely ending it after they execute 2 people who I decided count as good

Like

I decide (evil team numbers) amount of people are on the evil team together

(One of which is the atheist)

And if they execute 2 people who arent that then they lose

[chilly cedar]

I think that's a fair way to run it.

I don't think it's the only way, but you aren't claiming that it is the only way :)

Like for example, I might decide an evil team early on. But if something happens, like someone gets read by someone else as good socially, being a big flexible with where an evil team is can be helpful

However, I can see that

1. This is a lot more intensive on the ST.
2. This increases the chance of the ST making a mistake

[edgy socket]

From STing levi atheist, in practice you usually can't have an evil team this defined from d1

Also, the execution restriction is deceptively evilsided -- it makes it much harder to get to an endgame where there aren't meaningful theist worlds, though you can do what you can to make it unlikely

"Hard limit 2 executions" is going to be a little too tight in a lot of puzzle-atheist games, especially with Politician on script

(but it depends on how smart town is being with their executions -- in some games 2 is fine, in some 3 is fine)

[late ingot]

I imagine (without having STed many such scripts) this depends on how many reasons exist for a blue token to claim Atheist

Cere, Drunk and Poli (and Philo with Poli around) are all potential ways for town to lose an exe on an Atheist claim

[rose oriole]

Personally I would rather not arbitrarily end the game to “2 goods executed”. Day 5 is a clearly defined loss condition. 2 goods executed is too harsh imo and any other set of conditions feels too arbitrary.

If you want to Klutz fallacy prove it’s Atheist by exing 4 good players, sure, but why not just exe the estee from the get go?

||We think this might be a home script interaction in the expansions so it will be interesting to note what guidance the almanac says if that happens.||

^^ speculation

[coral jungle]

||Really? You're not thinking Atheist MHD?||

[still sedge]

||the script about not trusting people???||

[coral jungle]

Spoilers!

[still sedge]

The new edition of dusk???

[fringe mirage]

||Athiest Legion isnt super great||

||Their chaos blends together in a way thats not great||

[green fiber]

good and very cool and awesome on the right script

[cinder shell]

fucking stupid ass character combo grrrrrr
-# /j

[viscid hatch]

I nearly missed this omg

So Levi Atheist is an amazing interaction that twists common Puzzle Atheist and imo is probably going to be the best environment once we have a fuller suite of characters to accommodate what the Atheist wants in such an environment

You want the Atheist to exist in a tight logical environment where there's plenty of information to sift through to find evidence

Right now that's difficult to create without "the evil team explodes" or "the good team can't coordinate to actually put the puzzle pieces together"

An Atheist has more to do if there's more logic to world building

Think of the more sane SnV games with a Savant who everyone is fixating on with regards to their info

That's a fairly crunchy game with a focus on solving with logic chains based on the Demon type and the truth values of the Savant info

The ideal is that for Atheist that logically eliminating every Theist world is consistently possible with just 1 piece of impossible info in the world you choose to frame

Leviathan hence becomes the best Demon for this

In that Atheist environment you don't want any puzzle pieces falling out of the box by getting them killed

Otherwise possibility spaces open and then probabilistic worlds enter the game

So if that environment is going to be created, it's best with Leviathan imo

[viscid hatch]

Due to what Vati brought up I actually think that "good reasons for someone to claim Atheist and it not be Atheist" is actually fairly bad for Levi honestly

The execution restriction is insanely tough

I went back and forth on it for a while but I've arrived to "just let them execute freely until time runs out"

If good is willing to risk losing to executing a good player, they probably already think that player is evil in Theist worlds

So there's no point in ending the game

[coral jungle]

I honestly agree. I'd probably let them chop into the Atheist and count them as evil, since the point is evil probably wants to make a calculated gamble to win.

[winter bobcat]

just boomdandy them when they kill the atheist

[late ingot]

mmm tasty Leviathan Boomdandy

[edgy socket]

famously the origin of the thrall meme

[winter bobcat]

We're thrall in this together

[jaunty tapir]

happy thrallidays everybody

[edgy socket]

The big reason why you don't execute atheist claims in levi isn't to avoid losing in atheist, it's to avoid losing to a poli in a theist game

[twilit wedge]

politican GoS guys

but yeah i love this combo a ton

i usually would give good three executions in a levi athiest game though unfortunately the definitive answer is "do whats right for that specific game"

[edgy socket]

Occultist GoS so you can claim Atheist whose learned new info is that there are no evils and you have to execute the ST

[tulip sage]

was there any interaction for Christmas day

i guess Atheist x Leviathan was two days because it's just that great

anyways,

[12/26]

Bounty Hunter x Amnesiac

[late ingot]

People like BH-turning the Amnesiac -- it's tempting to have an extra ability that helps Evil rather than an isolated Evil player whose ability (at best) helps them find their team.

[fringe mirage]

Be careful giving an evil Amni abilities that poison others or function like Minions

Good team can’t always deal with an extra evil who also has essentially a free wizard wich or minion ability

You can use the Amni to help learn the evil team if they are evil

If the Amni is good, then choosing a player a BH says they’ve learned could say a lot about the ability

[weak ingot]

BH + Amnesiac is fine, just don’t do a

evil amnesiac doing random unsolvable stuff is chiefly just plague doctor wizard but no one has agency

ideally, if you don’t feel like giving amnesiac a decent evil info / evil comms ability, do something loud and obvious

silent droison / misreg / other random stuff is terrible

your game still needs to be solvable and the good team will like you better for it

[fervent basalt]

I think evil amne is most fun when you do something loud and ideally somewhat silly with it

[forest spindle]

Just remember to keep the power level of the ability low so the amne doesn't go from an evil townsfolk to an evil minion

[unborn trellis]

do the annoucement of

"if i won't grant a wizard this the evil amne won't get it as well"

generally this means

if the evil amne creates any misinfo, nomatter how small

it has a clue

or ofc it doesn't have misinfo

[spice ferry]

Well.. some townsfolk cause misinformation. So I don't see it as a bad thing

What I don't agree with is using the evil amne as a minion

So you don't have to clue in the misinformation the amne causes. Good or evil

but also don't use the amne as a minion

[weak ingot]

Evil TF < Evil Minion

[tulip sage]

i do think evil townsfolk balancing is interesting

[spice ferry]

Here are examples I have.

You start knowing your closest minion player.
You start knowing which demon is in play.
You start knowing 1 in play minion and 1 not in play minion.

[weak ingot]

i like the first one

[spice ferry]

In an ST directed demon kill game:

Each night*, choose a player. If they are evil, the demon chooses their kill tonight.

that one is slightly grey I think...

but it works.

[unborn trellis]

wait what does this even mean

i'm confused

doesn't this hurt town?

[weak ingot]

i would not do this

we're talking about evil Amne

[spice ferry]

we are talking about evil amnes

[unborn trellis]

oh

[tulip sage]

i read it as "the Amnesiac chooses a player each night except the first, and if the Amnesiac chooses an evil player, the Demon gets to choose which player they kill tonight"

[unborn trellis]

this one heavily depends on which demon

[winter bobcat]

it says in a game like Yagga/LM

[weak ingot]

i would not do this because ST chosen kills are literally the entire balancing point for LM and Legion

[unborn trellis]

you see, having it in yagga-lil monsta-legion games is like

[winter bobcat]

with ST directed kills

[unborn trellis]

very different

it's autowin in legion ofc/

in lil monsta it's rlly strong

[winter bobcat]

well extra evils already kinda break legion

[unborn trellis]

also it might just as well be misinfo at this point

[winter bobcat]

so...

[weak ingot]

eh, ogre is fine

[unborn trellis]

as long as you don't give them weird abilities it's fine?

[spice ferry]

I used it. It was fun and it worked. It was in a yagga game and it only triggered once

amne lived 2 days

[unborn trellis]

yagga game is like idk how that work

[winter bobcat]

did they choose all kills?

[unborn trellis]

if yagga say 5 times can they choose 5 kills tonight?

[winter bobcat]

or just 1

[weak ingot]

Yagga is the only one I see this working in because you can off the Amne

[spice ferry]

I think it was 2 kills. and they spent one of them on a player that got killed by a harpy madness anyway

[winter bobcat]

yag is also a little different

[spice ferry]

I mean its your amne ability. You can modify it the way you want

[winter bobcat]

bc st can still choose timing of the kills

[spice ferry]

that's true

The goal is just to say.. evil amne most of the time has a really good time if the ability is about finding the evil team or learning about them

[winter bobcat]

ie turning them into a true + evil instead of just a chaos voice

in terms of votes + voices

[spice ferry]

I dream of running this evil amne:

You join in the minion info exchange.

but that sounds real powerful

so i'm still thinking about it

[unborn trellis]

well i mean

it's like how much you value +1 evil not knowing evil team

it's stronger than any +1 evil info townsfolk ofc

[spice ferry]

Yeah.. a known evil vs an unknown (ogre) is miles different

[tulip sage]

i think Amnesiac abilities, whether or not they are good or evil, should be weaker if easier to guess and vice versa

i feel like that ability's like a blank minion token

[vast inlet]

[12/27]

Gambler x Drunk

[obsidian trout]

We love drunk gambling

[tawny haven]

another reason for them to explode! Big fan

[coral jungle]

This is funny, but a bit of a slippery slope

It's good until you too many natural things that go with Gambler and then it's not.

[frigid flower]

I think its fine if you balance out the hidden roles that truly can be in play (no cerenovus, no pixie, no mutant)

(no philsopher too)

[tawny haven]

I think that having more reasons for the Gambler to die on a good player is based

so I'm a fan of pixie with cere/mutant/etc

[frigid flower]

Yeah but having too much can make gambler's info meaningless

[tawny haven]

its homescript your honor (catfishing)

[tawny haven]

Gambling someone correctly is still info

[frigid flower]

Yeahhhhh

[coral jungle]

🇨🇳 🏪

Wait there's no gambler

[frigid flower]

You guys may say this is a skill issue complaint, and it is

[tawny haven]

there totally is

[forest spindle]

Gambler helps find the drunk and also interesting to solve wether you are actually confirming players or youre drunk yourself

[frigid flower]

China chop is fire i wonder why dont i run it moreeee

Eh i am still a noob ST.

[forest spindle]

Hermit drunk tinker for when you are low on death mod

[coral jungle]

Huh, that's odd. The image I'm looking at has Cannibal.

Oh I'm looking at an older iteration.

[tawny haven]

this is on Safterix's Tipsy Gizmos and it's a really cool dynamic imo

#1404373687452307546

[fringe mirage]

I like this.

Drunk is good on Death puzzles. And honestly, you could probably use the Tour engine (Godfather/Ojo/Drunk) with Gambler

It wouldn’t be Tour and it wouldn’t necessarily feel like Tour. But it would use those character

[winter bobcat]

that doesn't sound right, but I don't know enough about china shop to dispute it...

[unborn trellis]

It's most definitely an interaction on catfishing

[real heron]

I think it’s interesting for a gambler to gamble the Drunk. But also I haven’t seen a script where it’s actually interesting for the gambler to be Drunk

[coral jungle]

[12/28] Monk x Vortox

[late ingot]

I love this one

[coral jungle]

-# This is in no way related to the custom I'm working on

[steady kernel]

Fire interaction. While Trouble with Violets is a very, very flawed script, this interaction being a part of it blew my mind when I was a newer player

Though I do wish Monk’s ability text was clearer that the intention was for the protection to persist into the daytime, as the text as written doesn’t protect daytime info gatherers

[obsidian trout]

Certified writing texts for their home scripts moment

[steady kernel]

For sure. Which is doubly frustrating since the Monk’s almanac entry does acknowledge that other Demons besides Imp exists

Yet the ability text is pretty narrowed on Imp

[fringe mirage]

There are scripts that center around this gimmick

Its cool that you can use Monk to make info true. Or you can bluff it to make people think their info is true. Plus, Vortox likes single kill Demons & Monk is good protection for 1KPN scripts

[real heron]

Boffin/monk in vortox is super cool

I think it’s really neat as a TF ability too

[kind berry]

[29/12] Marionette x No Dashii

[obsidian trout]

Peak interaction

[subtle wolf]

Ew

[sudden drift]

Home script interaction

One of few contexts where Marionette is helpful

[obsidian trout]

How could it possibly be a home script interaction

[vast inlet]

I have mixed feelings about this interaction. The extension cord effect is fun and a way for mario to be helpful, and I see it on quite a few scripts; but, no dashii's script presence makes it a lot harder for a marionette to confirm their neighbor, which makes my favorite brand of marionette (confirm your neighbor then blindly trust them without needing to know your actual alignment) not feasible

[sudden drift]

it's on Marionette's home script, Extension Cord (/j)

[vast inlet]

Marionette: checking your neighbor is good for you (maybe not the good team, but you for sure)
No Dashii: checking your neighbor is bad :(

but this is a good interaction overall I think

[coral jungle]

One good way to make a strong minion stronger!

(Against experienced players. Marionette against new players is quite weak.)

[edgy socket]

bra1n is typing...

[late ingot]

(The Marionette has a low winrate on the app, apparently)

[frigid flower]

Ur lying

Marionette is reigns supreme as the best minion

[coral jungle]

I have acknowledged this. Didn't you read the second line bra1n?

[spare hinge]

I've oscillated on ND/Mario and rn I don't love it

[coral jungle]

I think the fun part is it hides the No Dashii a bit better

Guarantees the tentacles spread and let you frame a ND elsewhere.

[still sedge]

Marionette is low due to the fact that “less informed evils” is not helpful to evil

Unless there’s a massive benefit

marionette provides 3 small benefits that just don’t add up after further auditing

[coral jungle]

It really depends. I've noticed that with experienced groups it's winrate is about 55%, which is pretty respectable.

Much higher than my rough estimate of low 40s overall (based on other known data points).

[late ingot]

oh is this in your group? ✍️

[coral jungle]

No, TPI

Streams, sometimes high-level livevoice games

I don't have a in-person group sadly enough

I have a hypothesis on why this happens, though. An experienced group will catch players on socials with higher frequency. A less experienced group is worse at preventing known evils from slipping through the cracks. Marionette counters social reading in a way the Mario themselves will not be granting credence.

It's definitely not stronger than something like Poisoner or Mez, like I used to think, but it's certainly a nice tool. A less experienced group, since they won't catch people on socials as much, will lose out on the benefits of Mario.

This also explains Ben's citing of its high winrate btw. He probably got that from the early days of the app, where the only people playing were experienced players. The app launched in late August 2022. Ben's comment was in early 2023.

[edgy socket]

afaict the winrate claim predates the app

[coral jungle]

I does not.

I checked this.

Maybe the claim itself does. Who would have gotten access to Marionette scripts before the app?

[fringe mirage]

Extension Cord core

It’s a pretty good thing and it’s not the worst minion you could pair to No Dashii

[unborn trellis]

baron is

[real heron]

Idk I’ve found that new players just never properly account for marionette and just topple over cause the mario has ‘game solving info’

[real heron]

Well, Ben probably knew of the mario and had playtested it himself at least a bit before it even released, let alone before the app

[real heron]

Maybe cause the group of newer players I’m thinking of had prior social deduction experience and so they aren’t new to social reads etc

[frigid flower]

Newer players are more likely to out and lose as the marionette

[forest spindle]

I bet it will be useful on its future home script :D

[coral jungle]

I know. Playtesters are never going to be new players, and before the app the only ones who would track winrates would be dedicated players.

[tawny haven]

I personally don't love it, but its not script-ruining

[tawny haven]

but safterix pretty much summed up my thoughts

In terms of the influence it has on a script, it makes it grueling to figure out if you should be pushing on your neighbors or not

(regardless of whether or not one/both are in play)

[frigid flower]

I rather lose that as the marionette that win lose as a townfolk tricked into thinking they are the marionette

I think that the fake marionetting its a huge problem with marionette that over time can hurt marionettes impact

Fake marionetting its a strong play but also a strong way to lose. And if the players on your group do it a lot.... It cuts circuit of what marionette is

No dashi allows for fake marionette to belive they are a minion for longer. But it is still workable if socials and mechanical information gets in way an narrows that that youre no marionette

[subtle wolf]

I don’t like playing as Marionette unless there are ways to discern besides socially reading my neighbor-demon. That is already difficult and No Dashii generally makes it even more difficult. I don’t like the combo at all.

[coral jungle]

This is an elegant interaction IMO, not because of the Mario, but because it extends the tentacles. I'm a sucker for longer tentacles.

[wary solstice]

Interesting phrasing there

[weak ingot]

my personal belief is that tenctacles should be natural

see this wonder of #1450204804856156180

[winter bobcat]

is there anything to mario allowing you to place NoDashii more deliberately? given the setup

like making it more/less harmful depending on the bag

[coral jungle]

That's clever.

[winter bobcat]

just love it when dashii makes a typhon line to max its effectiveness

[real heron]

There’s nothing to say you can’t just leave the demon token out of the bag in non-mario scripts

You technically can do it anyway

[winter bobcat]

yeah but then you need a gardener

and give away the whole thing

[real heron]

I don’t think so. Just put an extra good token in and give the demon the character they saw as a bluff. From a player’s perspective, it’s indistinct from normal, right?

[coral jungle]

That's gardener if you don't have a Mario.

Since you decide which player is the demon.

The difference with Mario is your choices get limited to the two neighbors of the token you selected to be the Marionette.

[winter bobcat]

Which is like kaz level of reversing socials such that players deserve to know it's a possibility

[real heron]

Oh fair. I guess I never really decide a drunk before handing out a bag, so I never considered doing with a mario

[real heron]

To be clear, I have never had any interest in doing this, let alone actually doing it. I just thought it was an interesting potential idea

[unborn trellis]

yeah it helps new players bluff a bit

[fringe mirage]

12/30: Fisherman x Heretic

[unborn trellis]

one of the few info roles that have clearly applicable info on heretic scripts

[subtle wolf]

As little as I care to play Heretic games, Fisherman is a role that belongs on Heretic scripts!

[green fiber]

you can say kill yourself f3

[wary solstice]

Heretic very rarely warps information in the game.
Fisherman and General are two of the exceptions that work interestingly well. General could be interpreted to receive reversed info, essentially peeking ahead into the future after the Heretic swap.

Fisherman is interesting, because you're essentially wanting to give them game throwing type information so that a lose is flipped into a win. This can be hard to give on the early days though with an ST struggling with any reasonable bad action so early on, but gets much easier as they approach the end game and get their advice

[tawny haven]

lovejinxed on scripts along with general

[weak ingot]

complaint: don’t make Fisherman advice basically “so there’s a heretic”/“so there’s no heretic”

it’s very OP and also boringly repetitive

giving more common Fish advice that seems normal on a script with no heretic is unironically better: “Sneakily get Alyssa to talk to Ben” (either can be the heretic, neither can be the heretic, etc.)

otherwise, very good interaction and one of the few interactions i would say that is basically almost needed heretic-side

as long as your Fish advice actually has some level of Possibilies, you‘re good

[forest spindle]

12/31 Baron X Balloonist

[weak ingot]

i mean, more outsiders is always good balloonist fodder, but...

balloonist doesn’t really need it

+1 and +2 outsider reasons muddies the water a lot. singularly i‘d even describe it as too much posomod

the issue with the sheer space from 2 baron and 0–1 balloonist is that with the negomod (which only ever is -1 Outsider), the world posibilities almost doubles to the point where omod becomes an unreliable method to really differentiate anything? baron is better when it’s proxyloud

otherwise it’s an okay interaction

[tawny haven]

don't do +3 outsiders but otherwise imo this is fine? I'm more in the camp of "the outsider count can be soup sometimes and that's fine" so don't really have moral objections to this

[weak ingot]

Xaan is more interesting with balloonist

[real heron]

The balloonist is arbitrary addition for a reason

But like kinda eh, I think balloonist goes against what Baron needs to temper it

[weak ingot]

balloonist in play makes the outsider soup worse for the good team

[real heron]

Yeah exactly

[edgy socket]

canadian catfishing

[weak ingot]

What's in a Catfishing?

me (chaotic evil)

• has Balloonist
• has Sweetheart

[spice ferry]

Honestly the perfect script. Let's be real

[coral jungle]

Not a half bad interaction if your ST is competent

[fringe mirage]

Use that +0 when need be. but its fine, theres nothing about Baron that makes it go on different scripts

[coral jungle]

One of the best thing about this interaction is that if Drunk is on script, and let's be honest, it probably is with Baron here, Balloonist is a Drunk finder that isn't hard to slot on.

[green fiber]

simply don’t add an outsider

unless it boffin balloonist

[tawny haven]

01/01: Organ Grinder / Lord of Typhon

[unborn trellis]

It's one of the classics of the type

"Volume hurts LoT but ability helps a lot"

it's mostly great unless there are 2 of them and there isn't a 2nd explanation of +1 minion ability being in play

(This mostly applies to cere/LoT and harpy/LoT too)

[winter bobcat]

tbf og is more in the fearmonger class than cere/harpy

[frigid flower]

Vizier too

[chilly cedar]

Synergistic

Unfun potentially

[winter bobcat]

vizier is a tier above

bc it also localizes to person

[frigid flower]

Yeah thats same tier like evil twin right?

[winter bobcat]

yeah kinda

twin is a little different bc its only confirmed to one person

mechanically

[winter bobcat]

more like psychopath tbh

[winter bobcat]

This is generally how i think of them for reference

[tawny haven]

poisoner higher than et is insane

get hystrexwalled

[winter bobcat]

without other droisoning on script it can be confirmed to be in play by proxy

[frigid flower]

Insaneeeeee

[winter bobcat]

like a failed monk protect

there are more tiers between these but couldn't figure out how to add tiers on the site i was using

[unborn trellis]

yeah but fm only has volume hurts LoT part

it doesn't have the ability helps LoT part

cere/harpy can help ttk while OG take advantage of +1 evil vote

[winter bobcat]

i was mostly just focusing on volume levels/classification

ogs self drunking can help frame typhon lines too

[winter bobcat]

ET is only mechconfirmed to one player though

[summer adder]

poisoner is usually mech confirmed to zero players though

[winter bobcat]

depends on the script

my example of a monk failing to protect their target with no drunk on script

[summer adder]

realistically when is that happening? like, i get that its possible for poisoner to be mech confirmed to more than one person, but i dont think that happens nearly enough to make it a good idea to put it in that category when the vast majority of the time it wont be

sorry that was weirdly phrased

[winter bobcat]

no that's a fair take but that's also why its at the very end of that tier

like MM is similar in that it is almost never confirmed unless you get to a f2 where the game keeps going with no zombuul on script

[quartz girder]

purely mechanically this tier list makes sense but from the point of view of how players are supposed to socially play loudness is gonna be very different

[past brook]

I feel like this is at least like fairly immaculate just because most characters are louder / quieter in practice than on paper

ET is much louder than that because two players usually are claiming it’s in play

[steady granite]

unsure why “known by another player” is above “needs confounds to be quiet” anyway

because good scripts have these

[winter bobcat]

because if someones claiming one of those you've localized an evil between them

[real heron]

Vizier and psycho are in a different field of loud than OG and FM which make them even worse for LoT cause the origin is clear

[real heron]

I think summoner is usually really loud tbh

Like, louder than Assassin

[winter bobcat]

a demon can sink

its impossible to worldbuild a doublekill without assassin if there are no confounds

[steady granite]

when you consider minion volume you should consider that the script is like good and has cover

[winter bobcat]

ok but this is my categorization of mechanical volume

and i will consider what i damn well please

(but more genuinely, this is purely context free mechanical volume based purely on the abilities themselves)

Also, wraith is only bumped up a tier because atp we don't have an released confounds

[weak ingot]

but we have confounds for witch

[winter bobcat]

the latter three of the second tier are kind of in like a half tier between the two

like there are exactly two confounds i can think of, yagg and tinker, only one of which can affect others

[fringe mirage]

1/2: Town Crier x Fearmonger

[coral jungle]

Why have one way for fearmonger to be a thrall when you could have two?

[subtle wolf]

This seems like a poor interaction. Fearmonger is a weak minion who needs anonymity to be effective and Town Crier counters it directly.

[jaunty tapir]

If fearmonger itself was a good character, then I think it'd be a really good interaction. The town crier can hide and try and bait the fearmonger into more aggressively nominating and changing targets, but also non-fearmonger evils can get a lot of credibility and direct executions themselves, having been cleared of fearmonger

[weak ingot]

unfortunately, Fearmonger currently has less support than Hongqi bridge

[fringe mirage]

1/3: Alchemist x Psychopath

[weak ingot]

[grand cargo]

“Can you not kill the Demon, making it so you are confirmed and the player you chose is likely being executed today, ending the game regardless?”

[weak ingot]

you aren't confirmed

the Storyteller can say to choose again at any time

it is nonmechanical

well the Storyteller obviously doesn't deny your pick, but the Psychopath can just tell the Storyteller that they want to do that shenanigan

[wary solstice]

If the ST ignores your attempt to Psychopath kill someone but then lets it through for another attempt, it'd confirm the player as Alchemist-Psychopath (outside of Boffin shenanigans or Yagga shenanigans).

So ST kinda has to either allow the first attempt or allow none.

[weak ingot]

i still don't think this is true by written

the storyteller can publicly say to choose again for anyone as long as it's not mechanically stopping them

it's only on the Alchemist that this can stop them

additionally, by how choice works, the psychopath can tell the Storyteller that their first choice is actually not their choice and they would like to kill someone else later

and if the ST knows they are doing an alchpsycho bluff who are they to deny it? it makes psycho less of a thrall

the actual issue for alchemist psychopath is not that alchpsycho is unbluffable, it's that it's actually very strong to have such noticeable goodsided killing

oh and also this is just worse slayer if there's no nightprot

don't tell the alch psycho to choose again if they axe the demon that's stupid

if the alch psycho is on like a savage rampage and the demon is doing jack squat about it then it's the demon's fault

if the alch psycho held until final 5 then that's just good play that should be rewarded

don't be afraid to end games early

Alchemist Psychopath is fine and less strong than people assume it is because there's nothing stopping regular Psychopath from bluffing it except for the lack of knowledge that you can

[winter bobcat]

[1/4]: Innkeeper x Acrobat

[frigid flower]

Innoutsider

[jaunty tapir]

I think it's a good droison source for the acrobat, as lots of evil sources like lleech and no dashii can straight up end the game

it's neat, it traces that night's droison and confirms the innkeeper

innkeepers accidentally protecting acrobats and hurting their team is a standard thing on BMR, I don't think it's too bad it just encourages cooperation

[winter bobcat]

also part of my thinking is do you sink the poison on acrobat if they're innkept?

[unborn trellis]

depends

usually it's a no

bc you want innkeeper to be aware that they can make any of the 2 ppl malfunction

[tawny haven]

I don't love it as a droison source for the Acro, actually -- I think a lot of the time it can boil down to "kill yourself to confirm a townsfolk speedrun any%"

to that end I think I'm a bit more favorable to something like Sailor

(since you basically get a free sailor tap if you coordinate)

[winter bobcat]

it can also confirm the sober player of the two picks

[tawny haven]

That's typically the less useful axis of "dying when picking into the Innkeeper picks"

[green fiber]

yes i hate it when the acrobat is Innkept on BMR smh it happens so much

[winter bobcat]

You’d be surprised how many people play BMR -gambler + acro

[green fiber]

wtf

[jaunty tapir]

okay same thing but gambler you know what I mean kenoboi

[green fiber]

i mean acro is very BMR coded but like gamber is great

[winter bobcat]

But they fill a similar niche

Usually it’s just to shake it up a bit from what I’ve seen

[unborn trellis]

acro is quite bmr coded

but - gambler is stupid

remove like something else

[coral jungle]

Budget gambler.

[coral jungle]

I hate this. Not because of the alchemist, but because gambo is my favorite townsfolk

[winter bobcat]

Alch?

[coral jungle]

*acrobat

Not because of the acrobat

Gambler is probably actually my second favorite overall

[real heron]

I think Punchy actually makes it work. But I don’t think it’s particularly balanced/fun like 90% of the time

Oh lol I thought I missed a day, nope, the two were just 6 hours apart haha

[tulip sage]

[1/5]

Philosopher x Heretic

[tawny haven]

funny

[winter bobcat]

It’s on outed evil I think

And I believe it works there

[unborn trellis]

It's funny

but an unsatisfactory fact is that it doesn't cancel out heretic when philo is alive since heretic is drunk

[winter bobcat]

That’s why philo gotta get themselves killed

[frigid flower]

True

[steady kernel]

It’s a fine interaction though I feel like in most of the games where Philo has done this, it’s only made it more confusing to solve since now the Philo’s validity has to be factored in in addition to the Heretic’s

Though the Philo also making it more confusing for the evil team is certainly nice

[fringe mirage]

1/6: Professor x Psychopath

[winter bobcat]

well i wouldn't reccomend attempting to ressurect the succesful psycho that was executed

unless alch is on the script, then maybe

[quartz girder]

"being alive and confirmed good is awesome" WRONG the axe is coming

[weak ingot]

scary!

but yeah Psycho is honestly a decent confirmation denier

doesn’t matter if you‘re confrmed good if you‘re dead

[winter bobcat]

and wait is TeaLady Fool Sailor (+ maybe goon?) the only goodsided recourse to a psychokill?

aside from like drunking the psycho via courtier type things

[fervent basalt]

storm catcher also kinda counts

[spice ferry]

and then they gain the baron ability 😄

[fringe mirage]

Als Prof Psycho on midnight Oasis

[rose oriole]

Goon only works at night

[late ingot]

oh we missed a day

1/8: Savant x Recluse

[coral jungle]

Having been working a script with both for a while, please don't.

Trust me, I thought you could mitigate savant+misreg, but the first game of Spin Doctoring (which was spy, but same diff), proved me dead wrong

[spice ferry]

You're saying don't misreg to the savant.

I think that kind of makes sense.. .the false statement balances the non-use of the misreg

[coral jungle]

I recently removed savant from Spin Doctoring because I was adding on recluse. A necessary evil, alas.

[weak ingot]

Savant/Recluse isn’t a crime, more like a Miss

Savant struggles with partially unreliable info

earnestly it is fine to have both but if there's any more droison or misinfo it gets sketchy real fast

let Recluse be an Outsider, but this kinda just makes the Savant unreliable when one of Savant's strong points is its ease of use on scripts and the self-balancing

though, making Recluse-proof Savant info is really funny

“The player who drew the Demon token is sitting beside a player who drew a Minion token”

with how versatile Savant is it doesn't entirely have bad interactions because you can always Don’t

but the mere possibility of Recluse is always annoying

[late ingot]

based Mario party sticker reference?

[weak ingot]

the Bowser one? yeah sure

[edgy socket]

It's fine

Even if you rule it needs to be written around rather than misreg-immune it's pretty trivial to write around

[winter bobcat]

would you have to worry about this confirming a misreg character in play to the savant?

[edgy socket]

(I'm still proud of the bluffed statement "it is mechanically possible for a Town Crier to get a yes for a day where [recluse] was the only nominator")

[winter bobcat]

or would you just have to do it regardless if both on script?

[edgy socket]

you don't, really

like I've received the statement "a chef could get a 1" and that doesn't tell you there's a recluse

it tells you recluse worlds are specific much as worlds in general are

[late ingot]

I usually just make my savant statements recluse-proof by default (and tell my players as such), but I don't get too upset if my storytellers rule otherwise

[tawny haven]

It's fine, just don't be cringe with it

[rose oriole]

Do you mean you rule that savant statements ignore Recluse or that you change the wording to get around Recluse?

[winter bobcat]

Like the wording they typically use wouldn’t actually be affected by misreg anyway

[winter bobcat]

[1/9]: Heretic x Politician

[frigid flower]

😭 😭 😭 😭 😭

[winter bobcat]

(yes this is a direct result of me reading the convo in #experimental-chat abt heretic)

and wondering if poli covers it at all

[coral jungle]

Add a hermit and a damsel, do it do it

[winter bobcat]

hey how did you see the script im working on before i published it

[obsidian trout]

I mean poli just claims heretic in f3 and like

What u gonna do about it

[winter bobcat]

and what if there's a quiet heretic?

[real heron]

Poli claiming heretic feels like it’d be an issue (I’ve seen it happen in a TPI game)

I think it’s interesting but can result in an innately unsolvable game state

[weak ingot]

Heretic and Politician is innately annoying because I feel like it makes Politician more boring

i mean yea i guess you just claim Heretic now

[winter bobcat]

[1/10]: Vortox x Zombuul

[obsidian trout]

I'm not really sure these two should ever be on a script together

Vortox on bmr-likes is just a generic demon since you are executing everyday anyway

[sudden drift]

Vortox wants an info-rich script

But Zombuul kinda doesn't, right? I don't think Zombuul is fun to play against Artist, Fortune Teller, etc

[fringe mirage]

Probably want a mix of science roles and info roles?

[weak ingot]

Vortox without many info roles is fine actually

[fringe mirage]

Vortoox is gonna have to really commit if they wanna fake Zombuul enough to get an easy win from their wincon

also double tapping is still an option

[weak ingot]

SNV has so many Vortox finders, Vortox becomes hot garbage

Vortox can afford to have less information roles on script

[obsidian trout]

Why would you ever not just double tap a corpse that you havent yet already

Over just not executing anyone

[weak ingot]

you'll never

the Vortox win condition is basically non-existent

[fringe mirage]

that was the secondsay point taht i made

[fringe mirage]

its there so you cant just get FG/TC Vortox checks for free

just like how Dreamer cant choose themselves

[weak ingot]

i did say basically

because it doesn't matter for the entire rest of all townsfolk

[fringe mirage]

yea

its not supposed to win: its just to stop good from doing obvious exploits

[forest spindle]

They can technically work together, but they lack any good synergy by themselves

[tawny haven]

I've really only seen these scripted together on really old scripts

and I don't think Zombuul goes in the bag on those

maybe you can bag like this or something because it simulates this bag to prevent town from killing into the nightkills

[steady granite]

you are executing every day in every script

[wild bridge]

[1/11] Evil Twin X Legion

[obsidian trout]

Legion can claim a twin pair

Pretty good

[real heron]

Needs a relatively experienced group for legion to realise they want to claim it but I think it’s a neat interaction

The only thing is that when the good team realise it’s legion, the two twin claimers are effectively outed evil

[near kernel]

its ok but not as good as it seems at first imo, experienced good twins can claim the twin info privately without talking to the evil twin to deconfirm legion to players they whisper, assuming the evil twin doesn't deny the twin pair

[weak ingot]

not really right? even legion can do that

[weak ingot]

Legion can afford outed evils late game though, it's not as important

[near kernel]

no because if A and B are twins and A talks to a set of people immediately and says "B is the evil twin and will have claimed we're in a twin pair to their 1st whisper", A has deconfirmed legion to that set of people

so now the evil twin is incentivised to play suboptimally which sucks

[weak ingot]

A has not deconfirmed legion at all because B can be talking to legion

there's no safety here

if the B‘s first whisper is with C and C says “oh yeah B did say twins btw” how do you know that C is not also Legion

on the opposing side, if you're a townie that sees A and B talking to a bunch of people how do you know A and B is not just legion talking to legion

they come out as evil twins later, non publicly, when they have time to cooperate ?

that's just regular Legion behaviour

every meta has a corresponding counter, just as legion pretend you are a good twin following the meta

[near kernel]

the best way to do this is to have a lot of people in each set because Legion can't communicate which 2 players are twins until they speak

[weak ingot]

this is not reliable in real world games

[near kernel]

i have seen this wdym

[weak ingot]

what is stopping the Evil Twin from denying being in a twin pair

what is stopping Legion communicating literally anything when they wake together

one of the main Legion points is being able to chain communication

[near kernel]

oh nothing, this is my point, its not that fun for the evil twin to be incentivised not to out the twin pair, because it makes the ability a lot less strong

[near kernel]

this is not really reproducible in online play and i feel like pointing to the character sheet during minion info is like slightly cheaty

[weak ingot]

ignore online play

[near kernel]

okay

[weak ingot]

IRL is chiefly the main design space for BOTC

i can see this meta being harsh in like, longtext

but Legion is already much weaker in online spaces

in IRL players have very little knowledge on who is talking to who

which is the main reason why this meta works in online spaces anyway

[weak ingot]

all it unironically takes is two players agreeing they if they both are legion they claim twin pair

which can happen in any format

it's not cheating if the game hasn't even begun, pregame agreements happen all the time in jokey environments

this meta just feels really easy to circumvent

you can't have perfect starting communication information in BOTC by design

oh yeah right

Evil Twin is fine in Legion

it's kinda similar to Widow in legion

the Minions here specifically are “loud” but can easily be bluffed by legion

I'd say that Twins is the loudest minion that works in legion

[rose oriole]

Widow is easier to fake than Evil Twin tho

[real heron]

In general, nothing is stopping an ET fabrication forming from publicly claiming “I’m x and y is my evil twin” immediately (both in online play and irl)

This leans on the comfortability for players to be thrust into that situation but it’s fine in a group of players that know each other

Like… its a meta I see somewhat often in groups I’m part of for real twins, so it seems reasonably likely to work most of the time

[unborn trellis]

Legion automatically know there’s no ET

[weak ingot]

Legion automatically knows they're only Legion

[tawny haven]

I think this is one of those interactions that's fun for some groups but can definitely have the fun optimized out of it as Coral brings up

like as Legion I will be frame one claiming a twinpair because it's more fun that way, and same if I'm in an actual twin pair

It falls in the Vortox/Legion bucket for me; i.e. "thing that people toss onto Legion scripts because they intuitively make sense together, but without realizing it takes more care than first thought"

(see also oracle/legion)

(which, of course, means I've 100% carelessly scriptbuilt around it in the past and then never actually bothered to run the dang thing afterward)

[fringe mirage]

1/12: Politician x Al Hadikhia

[obsidian trout]

I mean

They are certainly both botc characters

[quartz girder]

easy(ish) way to get poli win by always choosing live and forcing a bad triplekill ig

[frigid flower]

Politician big problem with alhad hahaha but they have to hold it

[obsidian trout]

I mean

Not really

If the alhad picks 3 good players

And all of them choose to live

Which causes them all to die

And evil wins

They are all equally responsible for good losing

[frigid flower]

They have to die in a very lonely way thou, haha i think if they get choose die in final 5 or something while there was already someone claiming they were going to choose die

[jaunty tapir]

I don't think causing a triplekill and ending the game is by itself enough to turn a poli, but it's a quite large swing

because you effectively cause +2 kills and generally -1 execution which is really big

[coral jungle]

Add on MM for an amazing 3-way interaction.

Anyway, this interaction is great

[unborn trellis]

It’s somewhat cool

But the tradeoff being poli being outed “evil/poli” might still make them not flip

Since their misinfo and missocial becomes 0

[rose oriole]

I call 1/13

[fringe mirage]

Okii

[rose oriole]

1/13: High Priestess x Spy

I like it when evils can actually bluff HP

[wild bridge]

Personally, I think that evil can always bluff HP. Evil can retroactively justify practically any choice given the idiosyncratic nature of the role.

The difference between HP without a grimpeeker and with one is that Spy allows a HP bluffer to effectively craft narratives with the fake HP info rather than (successfully) stumble blindly.

[winter bobcat]

the question is can spy misreg as a different role to hp

such that the conversation would differ

[obsidian trout]

I mean a recluse can misregister to the fisherman so

Why not

[rose oriole]

I also realized that sending the HP to the Spy is an interesting way to try to delay the Demon from getting the grimoire

[tawny haven]

Fun thing to script together, though misregistering to ST opinion is cringe

[cloud sentinel]

I really dislike the HP but I guess this could be interesting, it also means that the HP doesn't get shown all goodies because that's what HP feels like a lot of the time

[frigid flower]

Talk to yo pings brooooo!

It breaks my heart when HP doesnt interrogate their pings

[real heron]

The ability literally reads ‘you should talk to most’

talk to them

[fringe mirage]

1/14: Athiest x Wizard

[unborn trellis]

There's not really an interaction due to the fact that atheist need to be bluffed and it's just...not done much

duh

generally it's fine bc although it makes weird loud things in atheist game not immediately out atheist

in non wizard scripts such things won't even happen in the first place

it's just as good and bad as someone changing character in atheist due to ST bluffing pithag

[fringe mirage]

My take is that you shouldnm need these two, because you shuold run Puzzle athiest and not "weird stuff happens" athiest

But you can have some fun with rules breaks on an Athiest Wziard sript. And a msart Wizard can find ways to sell Athiest in weir ways

plus livevoice STs can actually run Athiest and not out thta its Athiest despie their shenanigans

/lh

[vast inlet]

I feel like this either needs an entirely unserious game, or the most experienced ST in existence

I'm not in love with the thought that wizard and atheist can theoretically entirely mimic each other, bringing the game down to entirely socials

but with an ST with a good sense of balance I'm sure it's possible to create a distinction and make the game still playable

[coral jungle]

This interaction is one of the best interactions atheist has. You'd think that in theory it would bring the game down to socials. That's partially true, but that's not entirely a bad thing. Besides, the more important thing about this interaction is that it lets you fake things that normally wouldn't happen in a game while still running puzzle atheist, leaving cryptic clues to the nature of the gamestate.

||I could easily see this being a base script interaction, though I think it's more likely for wizard to go on MHD and atheist to go on either GoS or nothing at all||

[weak ingot]

anyways, now that i‘ve gotten that out of the way i think wizard atheist is fine IFF the storyteller and players are reasonable

puzzle atheist is how atheist should usually go, and unsolvable wizard wishes can just be denied anyway

[coral jungle]

This is overall an amazing interaction and I really do recommend it. It makes shenanigans bluffable by evil, allowing for a massive increase in the depth of puzzles you can build with atheist actually in the bag!

[unborn trellis]

See the thing is

Without a wizard on script, atheist and other minions still perfectly mimic each other

Except psychopath

it’s only an issue if you think “atheist and other minions being able to fully mimic each other” shouldn’t happen without wizard

[coral jungle]

That's if your running puzzle atheist. This turns shenanigans atheist into puzzle atheist, and I think that's kinda cool.

[winter bobcat]

not necessarily

the STs who run shen atheist i dont trust to differentiate atheist/wizard

[real heron]

Right but those aren’t the right ST’s to run it anyway since it’s meant to be a puzzle atheist anyway

[wild bridge]

1/15 Snitch X Pit Hag

[quartz girder]

actual fun snitch use??!!!

[coral jungle]

Not bad

[frigid flower]

"here you have the potencial roles you can become that arent in play!"

[steady granite]

you can also turn a good player into a snitch and immediately reap the benefits

also if it’s already in play it encourages fun pit hag use and not just make a bunch of outsiders

[fervent basalt]

I think evil snitch is funny

[unborn trellis]

It’s fine

Remarkably making a player into something you’re bluffing isn’t the way to use it

[real heron]

Both a starting snitch and creating a snitch have use cases

Very nice interaction imo

[winter bobcat]

1/16: Exorcist x Scarlet Woman

[weak ingot]

A-OK!

they're both canonically hunting the Demon, just in very different ways

i do have to say though SW is a bit tougher to work out with ±deathmod so you need to keep that in mind

[real heron]

Yeah I think script building the two together is tricky to avoid other (bad) interactions, but when it works it’s super neat. This interaction in a vacuum is cool

[wild bridge]

1/17: Bishop X Devil's Advocate

[winter bobcat]

ngl a little ew imo

[weak ingot]

One of the many reasons why Bishop works on many scripts, but not BMR

then again, this claim works for every BMR Traveller

BMR is just not tolerant of RAW Travellers in general

in a vacuum, this is good since the Storyteller can nominate the DA protected player

as soon as this box gets slightly pressurised and caves in, this instantly fails

for one, Devil's Advocate is almost hot garbo when it's loud, so that implies the science trio on script, which, well, means you have characters that actively can't use their role on the whims of the Storyteller nominating people

for two, even loud Devil's Advocate enjoys roles that like to nominate and point in a general direction, since it can telegraph who to protect or just cause chaos (think Shugenja or Bounty Hunter), and guess what aspect of those characters Bishop surgically removes

and if you go “well, why doesn't the Storyteller just nominate them too?”, i‘d ask why you're playing with Bishop in the first place

the more players Storyteller nominates, the Bishop has less of an ability

[vast inlet]

Because I'm a power hungry storyteller it's fun 😁 (/s)

[quartz girder]

bad combo with da, even worse combo with townsfolk that are often paired with da

[weak ingot]

Fun for you maybe

the players make the game

[vast inlet]

Yeah I fully agree with that

I still think Bishop sounds fun, but also I've never actually played with it before, so it wouldn't surprise me terribly if it wasn't that fun in practice

[weak ingot]

Bishop cooks if the Storyteller is worth their trisyllabic title

it's just that it's inherently anti-BMR! and inherently makes some roles that want to act upon their info sad!

neither of which are bad things if the script supports it. which does mean puzzley scripts work rather well with it sometimes

[quartz girder]

is it not sto-ry-tell-er am i going crazy

[weak ingot]

Storyteller? I hardly know her!

gottem

[weak ingot]

yes this means i also dislike Bishop with Pacifist, Tea Lady, Sailor, Gossip, Exorcist, and Gambler

the optimal play for town is almost always to get their dang nomination agency back

[cloud sentinel]

Travellers that are fine in BMR: Beggar, Beaurocrat, Thief, Harlot, Apprentice, Matron, Gangster

[weak ingot]

Disagree with Bureaucrat, if only because when Goon is stuck evil the voting power is usually too strong
Disagree with Gangster and Harlot, extra kills on Travellers (which I note most of the time need to leave early or come in late) can vary the speed of BMR when they do so unpredictably
Disagree with Apprentice, see the “Apprentice sucks on BMR” wall
Disagree with Matron, cooperation and communication is a big part of BMR and Matron really makes it annoying to do so

i suggest Barista, Deviant, and Scapegoat, in earnest

Beggar is okay, net positive. i‘m neutral on Thief

[cloud sentinel]

"Disagree with Gangster and Harlot, extra kills on Travellers (which I note most of the time need to leave early or come in late) can vary the speed of BMR when they do so unpredictably"

My brother in christ you will never know if a BMR game will last 2 days or 14

I've had shab games where we thought it was Zombuul

[weak ingot]

that’s a sign of a bag that isn’t very well tuned

which my problem with them in the first place honestly

[cloud sentinel]

It was a combination of hitting the goon and protected players most of the time

[weak ingot]

i think Gangster in particular is more okay than Harlot

[cloud sentinel]

the demon was new to bmr

I can see the point with bureaucrat

but I'd say that matron works in bmr, I've had a bmr matron game and it worked very well

although the matron was good, might be different with evil matron

[weak ingot]

evil matron has a hard time convincing people they are good

good matron is okay

matron is the best BMR traveller

[cloud sentinel]

matron is a very cool traveller

i've seen a matron no dashii game and it was fun to even spec

[weak ingot]

apprentice bmr textwall

super F
fool - unbluffable as evil apprentice
sailor - you confirm yourself (unbluffable as evil apprentice) and then you drunk yourself because you‘re an outsider now
F
tea lady - unbluffable as evil apprentice, if part of starting tempo balance it is dangerous to travel out, can’t be travelled in because it hard destroys the bmr science landscape a lot of the time
professor - unbluffable as evil apprentice unless you bluff a miss; which then you get instantly exiled, hooray!
D
chambermaid - super hard bluff as evil apprentice (one strange number usually leads to exile from what i‘ve seen), also can just like. save goons forever. also chambermaid can target apprentice n1 and almost instantly catch them out
grandmother - super hard bluff as evil apprentice, and not really even a half-decent bluff. uninterestingly good
gossip - literally gossip. why are you putting your gossip on the Apprentice
C
pacifist - sucks when you leave early or join late
minstrel - sucks when you leave early or join late
B
innkeeper - if you travel this in late this evil team is kinda screwed but otherwise it‘s okay
gambler - reliable as bluffable as exactly apprentice assassin
A
exorcist - pretty decent, actually. usually my go-to good apprentice pick

C
mastermind - ass role to travel out as
B
godfather - kinda mid actually, but better than mastermind. can’t even bluff Gambler reliably though
A
assassin - this is the gambler bluff minion
devils advocate - congrats, you can prove yourself to the demon!

[cloud sentinel]

btw you know that fool/sailor/paci.... can be bluffed by a DA, right?

[weak ingot]

not on Apprentice

DA saves from execution

Apprentice is exiled

[cloud sentinel]

how is sailor confirming itself?

[weak ingot]

Fool and Sailor “don’t die”

[cloud sentinel]

ohhhh

[weak ingot]

DA is “safe from execution”

[cloud sentinel]

does exile count as death?

[weak ingot]

yes, by definition

[cloud sentinel]

also why are you proving yourself to the demon?

"If they are evil, they learn who the Demon is; they do not learn any additional evil characters or receive any bluffs."

[weak ingot]

the Demon doesn’t know you are Apprentice

some good travellers play to catch a demon out like this

in the “meta” this makes traveller distrust pretty high

[cloud sentinel]

if the (character who know the demon if evil) comes to me and says "im the evil apprentice with the asassin ability" as their 1st or 2nd action I'm gonna trust them

[weak ingot]

even if i super disagree with using this meta, it still exists and i still have to comment on it yeah

[cloud sentinel]

tbh I dont understand why evil doesnt learn about the traveller

[weak ingot]

i don’t either!

that‘s why for all my games i make evil learn the traveller

it just, makes sense,

[cloud sentinel]

I didn't even know it was only one way

I thought both demon and trav learned each other

~~as like, a diplomatic exchange between demons overseas ~~

[weak ingot]

yep i think it‘s dumb, but that‘s how it is in the rulebook

[cloud sentinel]

[weak ingot]

ayup!

i do homebrew fabled and lorics as my “thing” in this server

[cloud sentinel]

I like how BOTC encourages people to change things if they dont like them

[weak ingot]

it‘s one of the nicer things about the game design yeah

[cloud sentinel]

wanna play with the "big barnacle" sure bud, just make sure to post it somewhere so everyone can see your cool thing 👍

fabled and lorics are so semi-interesting

zenomancer is one I particularly like

[weak ingot]

Fabled and Lorics are my favourite things to design

though the new TPI ones... i do have opinions

[cloud sentinel]

Tor is a loric that I don't particularly like

[weak ingot]

Zenomancer is quite goodsided, but that do be how it is. Maybe more fun than Duchess in that sense

[cloud sentinel]

goosided conditions aren't that bad depending on how poerful the evil team is

[weak ingot]

we might want to move to somewhere else

#experimental-chat

[tawny haven]

studying the Travellers on BMR, they're mostly just "what works with Goon"

since most agentic Travellers can just lock the Goon into their alignment

Apprentice acts during their gained ability's night order so dodges that

Matron/Voudon/Judge/Bishop don't choose at night — I think Bishop on BMR is awesome because it's an injection of hard alignment info to a script that otherwise doesn't really have any

to that end I think that a good Storyteller will let their players cook and nominate players who have science to be done — TL neighbors, Pacifist saves, Sailors, and yes, D/A protected players

[frigid flower]

Infooooooo infoooo in bmr peak

[weak ingot]

my twenty two cents is that it‘s really difficult to do this in practice without locking in additional meta confirmation

sometimes players want to do a lot, which just ignores the Bishop‘s ability if every agentic ability is softly granted permission to exist

[winter bobcat]

Let your players beg for things

Have them curry your favor like the benevolent autocrat you are

[weak ingot]

i also let my players overthrow the nearby church

exiling the Bishop is a normal thing to do if science is being denied because the downside is playing normal BMR and losing the down-the-line 1/2 days or so of bishop info, and nothing is more peak than normal BMR

optimally the good Bishop info probably looks like:
d1 exe science
d2 exe potentially science / info
d3-d4 exe 1-2 players nominated for solve
d5+ onward probably exiled

and just what do you do if you have science but no DA

which is like, decently probable right

i‘ve ran BMR + Bishop + Travellers don’t register as players + Evil Team knows Travellers like 10 or so times and i still don’t have an answer to this

Evil Bishop isn’t bad for the evil team if you subscribe to Bishop nominates science

yes it confuses the limited noble-ping-ish info a bit but that‘s still strictly a net positive for the good team a lot of the time

and when you consistently ignore a demon candidate you‘re gonna get noticed

that‘s not to say that BMR + BIshop isn‘t fun, if it weren‘t i wouldn’t have ran it so often, it‘s just that i don‘t ever see how you can run it with limited player agency and still have Evil Bishop be powerful

like it‘s basically a Townsfolk in my games because the alternative of the local maxima is to run it in a way that leaves a bad taste in my group‘s mouth

and Travellers don‘t “work” as a thrall

it also really kinda sucks with Zombuul due to the sheer amount of info you gain

though all of these may be the problem of “you‘re running bishop a bit too much in a way that your players are picking up patterns due to your tendercy to give them agency” which is a problem i‘d rather not acknowledge having

since the alternative is to remove agency or play bishop less often

Bishop really cooks more on scripts without science from my experience

the info is actually strong and you can script build to make evil bishop be less of a thrall

[weak ingot]

of course just nominate the same people over and over again, then the logical conclusion is to exile the Bishop

or just nominate a buttload of players, then the logical conclusion is to exile the Bishop

[weak ingot]

you kinda need Travellers don’t register as players on BMR in general because of Tea Lady and stuff, but no one talks about how Moonchild just yeets the Traveller into pieces if they can

anyway Bishop needs that because you might as well just spend a kill on them before town gets a few seminoble pings

am i talking too much

i have a lot of thoughts on bmr travellers

this could‘ve been a substack

[jaunty tapir]

yeah tbh I don't get why people dislike this: I think bishop is like awesome on BMR especially and prob my favorite traveler. Sure, it has the generic BMR traveler TL issues and stuff but like a good bishop to highlight good science targets/executes and an evil bishop to block off some of those, alongside a good bishop giving town info is like really cool IMO

so to that end, bishop is good with DA because a good bishop can either:

• not nom the DA's pick if it'd be strong confirmation for the evil team
• put the DA protected player's nomination later into the day for a less likely execution,
• put it early into the day to make it more likely if it seems like an execution that would out DA (save with no paci claim, mainly)
  and an evil bishop can make that protected player an earlier nomination to make them more likely to be executed

but I get what Coda's talking about and bishop nomming such that players like the nominations enough to not exile the bishop while not making info too strong while still pushing the agenda of the bishop's alignment is a super difficult task

[vast inlet]

update: Bishop is fun :)

[weak ingot]

additional while for having seemingly decent info

otherwise if Bishop isn't breaking worlds via info, then what's the point of it in play other than giving you less options

[weak ingot]

evil bishop blocking off some science targets is a really annoying instant-exile tell though, so i‘d like to find out how people curb that

Bishop is just a really hard ST on BMR and any BMRlike

[green fiber]

this kinda applies for all travelers ngl

[jaunty tapir]

I played as a good bishop and pushed specifically for the executions of two players (I asked the ST to nom them) and it turned out they were both good and I threw so hard

I promise bishop is cool

[weak ingot]

as in being a hard ST or being a hard ST on BMRlikes

[green fiber]

travelers are miserable to run on BMRlikes imo

[weak ingot]

yeah agreed

i‘d say all the BMR travellers are more fun off-bmr

[weak ingot]

2/18: Pacifist – Lycanthrope

[obsidian trout]

When you want to pacifist save the faux paw but you can't 😔

[weak ingot]

Pacifist and reasons for players to not be saved is something I think is really neat

great for No DA, potentially, even though it's not the greatest idea

[wild bridge]

As Pacifist, if you fear the ST won't properly implement your ability, simply ask for the Lycan to kill you in the night.

[cloud sentinel]

this makes me feel raging fury

[chilly cedar]

One of those that does affect the solve of pacifist a bit

[weak ingot]

saying this without explaining why is really funny

[chilly cedar]

Probably can be played around but expect pacifist to feel a good deal weaker

[cloud sentinel]

-1 player that will be paci-saved when paci is already one of the most esoteric tf

[weak ingot]

eh, ST paci as a townsfolk

[cloud sentinel]

that's the problem, many sts don't

"oh yes, I will not save the moonchild even though the paci hasn't saved anyone this game and this death will make people think the paci is 10000% evil"

[weak ingot]

generally we assume here that the STs are good at their job

elsewise we'd just put down every Pacifist interaction as bad tbh

[wooden knoll]

Pacifist is an Outsider

Well I mean it isn't

But

If the DA exist, it is

And if the ST chooses to, it is

[weak ingot]

this is quite a misguided way of thinking but yeah

Pacifist is an outsider if the ST wants it to be

[wooden knoll]

Also, Lycan's faux paw is not optional yea? They just register evil

[weak ingot]

this is also true about Sailor and a whole bunch of other stuff

yup

[wooden knoll]

Welp

Gg Pacifist when Faux Paw

[weak ingot]

i mean yeah

[wooden knoll]

No confirmation 4 u

[weak ingot]

that's the entire point of the interaction

that's why i have it here

[wooden knoll]

I think

It funny

That what think

Proceeds to grim reveal

Faux Paw player: "you guys don't believe me"

[real heron]

I think it’s good to discuss both sides, but primarily focusing on good STing is what we want to do because it can be a learning point for some people (and also saying ‘this interaction is bad because STs are bad’ is a logical fallacy)

At least that’s my take

[wooden knoll]

Noted

[real heron]

I think they work interestingly together

There’s the sense that a lycan can specifically target people that haven’t yet survived execution and I think that could strengthen the paci, but the faux paw can lead to feelsbad situations where a player wants to (from the STs perspective) survive execution but literally can’t because they can’t register as good to the paci

It’s a tricky one that makes me think twice about placing the faux paw (if I actually ever ran the two together)

[wooden knoll]

I think it's a great combo to counter the evil team if done correctly

You can really screw over the evil team with that

[tawny haven]

1/19: Lleech / Storm Catcher

[steel kestrel]

congrats, you can make any character into lleech/king!

[tawny haven]

but bhamber, how do you feel about lleech king?

[real heron]

The storm catcher needs to favour a specific character so that the lleech doesn’t have an untraceable host handed to them on a silver platter

The better for the character it favours, the less of an interaction this has tbh

So I’d imagine the aim is, strangely, to reduce the interactivity

[weak ingot]

Lleech Storm Catcher is a bit of a nightmare to scriptbuild around

well i haven't scriptbuilt it yet but i imagine it probably wouldn't work very well on most Townsfolk

[green fiber]

i’ve made a script with this!!!

it’s cool unless the f3 is the lleech the host and the stormcaught player

because then evil can’t win unless they kill the stormcaught player

[winter bobcat]

Executionology moment (before most recent update)

[wooden knoll]

Storm catch the lleech host

[tawny haven]

you mean the other way around?

[wooden knoll]

-# wait

[wooden knoll]

AHAHAHAH

U got the joke

[winter bobcat]

No you screw up night order

And stormcatch whatever character the lleech happened to pick

[wooden knoll]

Lleech hosts gambler

THE GAMBLER IS STORMCAUGHT

because f u gambler

[winter bobcat]

And now they have no proof they're poisoned

[wooden knoll]

https://tenor.com/view/shocked-astonished-gif-11371999158608255980

[wooden knoll]

Off script King

Bring in the atheist, storm catch the lleech

...

-# wait

[frigid flower]

how often was the mutant being picked as the host in Executionogy, like almost never i belive

[fringe mirage]

I call 1/20

in fact

1/20: Princess x Legion

[near kernel]

the interactions are just

• legion's script presence makes convincing people to vote on the princess nom more difficult
• if princess is in a legion bag the protection doesn't help town much because an evil is almost always dying n2 anyway
• legion can bluff princess to have an easier time pushing on a good player d1

?

i dont love any of these personally

[frigid flower]

It is a good interaction if and only if there is an extra good player in play

If its base legion with only 3-2 good players i see it being too damaging.

But also it creates an extra tempo for the good team to figure out legion and soft confirms the princess!

But yeah as a bluff its really powerful

Interesting interaction i see i can see being featured on a script soon.

[wooden knoll]

I kinda wanna see it happen

For the sake of

It happening

[weak ingot]

Princess, after nominating and executing one of the good players:

[wooden knoll]

https://tenor.com/view/pikachu-shocked-face-stunned-pokemon-shocked-not-shocked-omg-gif-24112152

[cloud sentinel]

this