Character interaction thingy

[edgy socket]

Juggler is also the strongest townsfolk on Final Nail which is why it has 1 million fuck-yous and Ojo

though much of this is because of how absurdly strong midgame philo-juggler is

I think it's less optimal than I used to specifically because of late-alive damsels (and a couple other factors) but it's still really strong

[covert karma]

Not a lot to comment on here tbh. It's just a role which makes Juggler a small amount weaker.

[tawny haven]

Juggler/Damsel is awesome

[forest spindle]

you could damsel check by juggling all 5 or less as damsel

I think they are interesting but not one of those super wild script synergies

[tulip sage]

[10/24]

Barber x Zombuul

[late ingot]

oh my god

this is an interaction of all time

[hollow fulcrum]

oh.

wow

i have never thought about this before

(that i remember)

[late ingot]

I love swapping a different evil ability onto a once-dead zombuul

[tawny haven]

😭

I don't really like this

to the point where I houserule against having non-Zombuuls being able to register as dead if I can help it

(something like "A once-dead Zombuul cannot change characters")

[graceful plume]

Wait this is peak

The previous Zombuul stops registering as dead if they swap themself with someone else, right? So they can sell Shabaloth/Professor worlds?

[boreal hornet]

Im fairly sure they stop “registering as dead” but their life token doesn’t get flipped back to alive? Might be wrong

[graceful plume]

So step 1 is get yourself executed as Zombuul day 1, step 2 is getting your Assassin to kill the Barber on night 2, swap with the Assassin, stop registering as dead, wake up with a working Assassin ability and claim that the Professor revived you

Ah that's no fun

[tulip ivy]

yeah you wouldn’t :”look” alive

[chilly cedar]

no

that's my answer

[coral jungle]

Good God I hadn't even considered this was a possibility.

This is just a no-go for any script I can think of.

[boreal hornet]

This gives off face your fears vibes but like … almost worse 😭

[still sedge]

I want to try this now

[tulip ivy]

Hello Gary cooper

[still sedge]

this stuff y'all are talking about sounds cool actually

[tulip ivy]

No this is dreadful please avoid this

Gary cooper exists

[still sedge]

but that's a different goal

"Zomjank"

[chilly cedar]

zombuul often is miserable

this doesn't help

on customs especially

[still sedge]

Doomsayer

it's balanced

[chilly cedar]

zomm

[still sedge]

zommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

"The Race is over and evil has won"

Oh it's an engineer script now

[late ingot]

Gary cooper?

[still sedge]

not

like that

no pithag

no SW

no atheist

HMMM

[fringe mirage]

Hello less funny Gary Cooper

This is a bad interaction

[tulip sage]

okay i need to find out wth gary cooper is XD

[still sedge]

bad.

[still sedge]

The goal is "maximize zombuuls"

[late ingot]

it has problems

[boreal hornet]

1. Hatter is always chaos
2. A minion or demon can only select lil monsta if at least two zombuuls are pretending to be dead.
3. Lil Monsta cannot start in play.
4. Plague doctor can only give the scarlet woman ability.

[tulip sage]

ah so i didn't need to dig through the messages in this server for it!

thank you!

[fringe mirage]

Also, this on Axolator's Tumblr. It was the April Fools for her Script A Day series

[steady kernel]

Not exactly adding anything original but yeah F tier interaction

Character changing and Zombuul in general is just not viable in most cases I feel. Cue half joke about Zombuul not being viable on most custom scripts

[fringe mirage]

Said Script A Day has genuinely good and battle-tested scripts

[late ingot]

that's where I took the image from lmao

[fringe mirage]

https://axolator.tumblr.com/post/793319513862160384/script-a-day-masterpost?is_related_post=1

i yap about blood on the clocktower

Script-A-Day Masterpost

Hey, everyone! This is going to be an updated repository of every Script-A-Day post from here on out.

If you're new here, welcome! I'd highly recommend checking out Script-A-Day #0: Introduction first, to learn what the series is about.

Writeups under the cut!

Normal Script-A-Day Posts

Script-A-Day #1: A Grimm Chorus by Zets
Script-A-Day #2: Flight of the Bumbling Idiots by Cedric and Utku
Script-A-Day #3: Hide and Seek by Narninian and Zaba
Script-A-Day #4: Harold Holt's Revenge by Theo
Script-A-Day #5: Clockwork Cyborg by vaticidalprophet

Script-A-Day #6: Poppyganda by Dan
Script-A-Day #7: Boozling by Lau
Script-A-Day #8: Extension Cord by Viva la Sam
Script-A-Day #9: Lunar Eclipse by Ekin
Script-A-Day #10: Pearly Gates v2.0 by Hannah

Script-A-Day #11: Bait and Switch (World Cup '23 Version) by Jeremy
Script-A-Day #12: Star Pass All Stars v2.1 by Ekin
Script-A-Day #13: Dreamscapes v1.0 by Paradox
Script-A-Day #14: Separation of Church and State by Aero
Script-A-Day #15: It Comes At ...

Tumblr · Aug 30, 2025, 3:40 PM

[magic ferry]

woah, i'm on this

I didn't even know that

that's fun

[steel kestrel]

@magic ferry you should make more custom scripts

[tulip sage]

[10/25]

Alchemist x Xaan

[frigid flower]

Butt

[late ingot]

interesting!! As an alch-xaan, I'd expect the claimed outsider count to line up with how front/back-loaded town's info is

[graceful plume]

Just let X=0

[late ingot]

I'd almost never do an alch-xaan 2, but I can imagine bags where every other number is fair

(Alch-xaan 1 doesn't drunk itself, does it?)

[real heron]

Alch learns before everything iirc, no?

Oh wait, alch now learns true info about its ability despite droison or vortox? Or did I dream about that?

[late ingot]

I'd never show an alch-xaan 1 a different minion, but I think it would drunk all townsfolk and not just itself?

[chilly cedar]

drunk all townsfolk

i think in the same way boffin minstrel works

[hollow fulcrum]

it creates a poisoning loop that ends in all townsfolk including the alch-xaan being poisoned

[late ingot]

ok nice

but ye making a 12p fang gu game have only 1 outsider seems like a fine trade for junking the N1 fortune teller and General info

[chilly cedar]

it is if the xaan knows whats up

[late ingot]

and alch-xaan 4 is fine if the outsiders are mild and face-up

also alch-xaan 4 in a riot game

[graceful plume]

Alch-Xaan 6 in Leviathan

[sudden drift]

Alch-xaan + 4 outsiders + minion + demon. Now that's a setup

[late ingot]

but yeah if you have a way of determining where the xaan night might be, confirmed outsiders are often better for town than frameable townsfolk

[graceful plume]

Lets disregard that this is a Riot Xaan script

[sudden drift]

Xaan in general seems very evil-sided in 1-minion games, and I'm not convinced Alch-Xaan can feel like a townsfolk in 7-9p
(Idk maybe it works in leviathan??)

[graceful plume]

In 7 players it's just awful, right?

But like, on 8 players setting X=0 or 9 players X=0 or even X=1 with the right bags, that's fine?

[past brook]

If you make everyone an outsider the Xaan night is never a downside!

[late ingot]

in 7p you can have so many outsiders that the xaan night never procs

[past brook]

Alch Xaan is a great bluff and under highly specific circumstances a great tf

[graceful plume]

Ah yes, the classic Alch double Baron

[late ingot]

what about xaan with alch-something else, do we think

[real heron]

I mean, I’ve built a riot midst script with xaan and so far xaan has lowest win rate (all ~50%)

It is competing with marionette and spy, so it makes sense, but yeah

[sudden drift]

Many Alchemist abilities can determine whether they're poisoned in a Nightwatchman-y way, which is good with Xaan

[real heron]

I think that is using the xaan as a baron on steroids and it’s not particularly fun for anyone

Since arbitrary outsider count means none of them are confirmed as well

[past brook]

Alch vizier getting executed on a Xaan day is so funny

[real heron]

It’s not as funny as a pukka poisoned vizier who fails to use their ability LOL

[sudden drift]

Unfortunately, a Xaan script probably has other quiet minions, and those aren't very Alch-y

Maybe you could do Xaan/Boffin/Assassin/DA, idk

[real heron]

I had that happen in a game with my local group and everyone was so confused

[tawny haven]

alch-xaan is really funny with heretic

it's like new alch-baron since baron-heretic got gutted

[green fiber]

The alchemist no longer has to get an out of play minion, so learning what ability they have is no longer “info” cause it doesn’t give them any information about the gamestate. this means vortox doesn’t affect it. It’s just how a Scarlet woman learning they’ve been turned into the demon doesn’t count as “info”

(and it’s also why the banshee vortox jinx makes no sense and doesn’t need to exist)

[graceful plume]

[10/26]

Fisherman x Vortox

[magic ferry]

🔥

[tawny haven]

🔥

[coral jungle]

The Vortox's ability makes townsfolk abilities yield false info. The Fisherman gets advice, not info. So that means surely the Fisherman is unaffected by Vortox, so this interaction is fine. (Copium)

Yeah no, don't let this interaction happen. It's basically the one interaction that means you can't add fisherman to the script.

[magic ferry]

? I love this, you get to give the Fisherman just the worst advice possible, that's so fun

[deft stirrup]

Yeah, giving Fisherman terrible advice is pretty fun if opposite of it is pretty useful.

[coral jungle]

It becomes infuriating when as the fisherman you need to dance between open worlds where it may or may not be Vortox. Especially when your advice is on a one-day time limit.

Droisoned fish advice, on the other hand, is usually easier to sniff out.

[stuck locust]

Is that not true of all characters

[coral jungle]

Yeah, but with most tf you have until f3 to figure it out. With the fish you have one day.

This interaction is very janky and should not be touched.

Also, Fisherman advice is often open ended. General interacts badly with Vortox for similar reasons.

Overall, the fish usually just isn't able to tell their info is Vortox'd until it's too late, and even if they do figure out it is Vortox'd, it often doesn't tell them what they're supposed to do.

[chilly cedar]

Pretty much disagree

The way I run Vortox fish is that they get advice that make their team lose

I don't think fisherman advice is often on a 1 day limit. It might become weaker as the game goes on, but it can still be there. But I kinda get what you mean

I could make quite similar arguments to you about artists splitting the grim in half for the search of demons in snv

With stuff like pithag

[graceful plume]

This is kind of why I asked in the first place. I adore the interaction and I know more people do, but I have heard strong feelings the other way as well. I think it's fair to ask of your Fishermen to consider Vortox worlds and let them solve for Vortox first in some other way

[frigid flower]

I just did this in a BountyHunter Leviathan Game where the fisherman was evil and their advice sounded game breaking (evil winning on he spot) actually he was the Puzzledrunk Evil Fisherman

I told him to go talk to the Vizier, and tell him this info: "The Grandmother's Grandchild its next to the demon..." The Fisherman knew the demon and was next to him. So he told this advice too.

The Demon nominated the soldier without knowing and the Vizier Killed the Soldier and the Good Team won

Not quite the same as in a Vortox game but yeah this was some next level fuckery.

[graceful plume]

Wait why did good win?

[frigid flower]

The Demon Nominated the soldier, the Vizier forced the execution.

[graceful plume]

Oh Levi Soldier jinx

[tulip sage]

nice, an interaction that people are split on

[tulip ivy]

I personally love this interaction but I understand why it’s controversial

The biggest argument is that advice isn’t information

But if savant statements can be falsified (proof by inspection) then so can fisherman imo

I think this interaction requires very specific scripts, and those scripts are ones where fisherman already works super well (fisherman fits kinda everywhere, but for this it needs the best script you can get)

“Tell X to be honest with Y” is awesome here because it could be:

• Demon to Minions
• Huntsman to Damsel
• Minions to Damsel
• King to Choirboy
• or other pairings that could be winning or losing

It makes you not want to share that info

“Claim to be the Butler to everyone” could be clutch in baiting out a Fang Gu or it could be making you look evil to the hidden Butler

The advice needs to be vague enough that the fisherman can’t just understand whether or not it’s Vortox

That’s my take on it

[green fiber]

giving the vortoxed fisherman “kill yourself” on a heretic script final day

[coral jungle]

Alright, I'm convinced. If this works, I'll test it. I'm putting it on my script

[coral jungle]

[10/27] Cerenovus x Saint

[late ingot]

I think this is a little rocky but not the worst sin ever

[fringe mirage]

I've either been in or watched a game where we lost D1 from a cere mad Saint

Its a fun thing to make people be mad as. Just try to be kind to the Saint if they are mad

[late ingot]

yeah, my biggest quibble is when the Saint gets cerepicked to be mad as a role that's happier to die by execution

[fringe mirage]

In the game in question, I think they had to be made mad as the Drunk

So they had to claim Invest who thought tey were drunk

Who... would also be fine with dying 💀

[spare hinge]

Under the wrong circumstances it's an ST-controlled torment nexus (the worst kind of torment nexus), which is why I'm not a fan. SnV has the potential for a similar thing in Mutant/Evil Twin, but there the solution is "don't make the Mutant the good twin", here it kind of is "don't put Cere and Saint in the bag together". Being able to make players mad as the Saint is really funny, but it comes at the cost of sometimes putting the Saint (and more importantly the ST) into an impossible situation.

I prefer player-controlled losscons, so on a Cere script Klutz or Damsel seem better to me

[edgy socket]

Bad

[chilly cedar]

Making players mad as the saint is good

Making the saint mad as something else is bad

This is one of those interactions where the bad side outweighs the good

[late ingot]

yeah I wouldn't, like, refuse to play a script from this interaction but usually there's a better option

[tawny haven]

I've been a Saint ceremad as the drunk on d1... not a fun way to lose d1!

[late ingot]

ooh, I think you made a cameo a few messages up

[edgy socket]

I've heard the drunk invest 0 story from axo yeah

[tawny haven]

there was also a pixie invest who put me in vizier pings

[fringe mirage]

I don’t think Axolator was the one who was mad that game

[edgy socket]

so there were 2 games where specifically the saint was sniped as the drunk and bluffed drunk invest 0 before getting executed d1?

(axo has told this story to me like 6 separate times so at least it's presented as from her pov, but this happening twice is also super funny)

[fringe mirage]

I remember two thigs about the game I mentioned. It was on the offical app. And I'm pretty sure a male player was the drunk saint.

Im less certain abut taht second, but thats the other reason I think it wasn't Axo

[tawny haven]

the drunk invest 0 was on the official app

alejo was running it

[fringe mirage]

Huh. Maybe it is that game then?

Idk. Its been a while & I cant find a record of it in my sheets

But I do have gaps

[spare hinge]

[10/28]

Big Wig x Godfather

[cinder shell]

ooo

[late ingot]

huh

[cinder shell]

evils picking outsiders for big wig

so that if they die the gf kills

[sudden drift]

can you delay the big wig deaths to night so that they can be disguised as godfather kills?
...in practice, do people playing with Big Wig break madness? or do they use the Loric to be a little silly

[spare hinge]

I mean Lorics are supposed to be silly, but really, is there anything sillier than taking a silly thing seriously?

[kind berry]

Ehhh imo Lorics aren't silly

[winter bobcat]

wait if other people talk during big wig time, does that cause the bigwig to might die?

also this is an interesting space, with outsiders who are otherwise happy to be executed (damsel), and really highlights the distinction between "good" and "good execute"

[fringe mirage]

The Storyteller bonks you with a newspaper

Or a funny stick

[winter bobcat]

sorry, my STs only have sledgehammers

we ran right out of newspapers

(its the 21st century)

Or is it now just a laptop open to a news site that you whack them with

[fringe mirage]

I get that, but also, idk what the bonking emoji uses a bonk with

So like a , I said newspaper

[winter bobcat]

a baseball bat no?

[fringe mirage]

Oh

Lmao I have no idea why I assumed rolled up newspaper

[winter bobcat]

because that is stereotypically used to bonk naughty dogs

when you don't want brains splattered on the pavement

[fringe mirage]

Tru…

[tulip ivy]

Waittttttttt

Okay I don’t like loric but like this is a super clever interaction

[tawny haven]

oooh that's cool

[stuck locust]

you don't like loric?

wow you really hate fun smh

[tulip ivy]

Yeah you’re not the person to say it

I’m glad they’re distinct from fabled

And I like that they change the game experience in an interesting way

It’s just absolutely not for me

[frigid flower]

Hope the coming lorics win your heart

[tulip ivy]

Only one way to find out

[spice ferry]

https://tenor.com/view/star-wars-sith-gif-7488176

[real heron]

That comment is such a funny irony lmao

[hollow fulcrum]

“mostly sith deal in abolutes”

[weak ingot]

sith mostly deal in absolutes

[weak ingot]

it's not really, ‘cause it's not a deal

[winter bobcat]

[9/29]: Dreamer x SpyCluse /

[real heron]

What?

[winter bobcat]

Basically just dreamer with misreg

[real heron]

I mean, it’s like… fine. I don’t really see how it’s super interesting tbh

[late ingot]

Dreamer x spy and dreamer x recluse

these are both good. Dreamer is also a classic spy bluff

[winter bobcat]

Is it too punishing for the dreamer?

[late ingot]

I think it's fine? the spy can be seen as a demon, and the dreamer becomes somewhat less confirmed so shrug

[real heron]

A dreamer being punished for picking a player is a wild description
Imo spy/dreamer is better than recluse/dreamer cause an incorrect dream on a recluse doesn’t really mean much imo, plus spy and dreamer have an interaction other than the misregistration

[graceful plume]

I feel like Dreamer needs a script with strong reasons for misfiring or it will just pretty much solo solve the game. Spy/Recluse are fine ways to manage just that

[winter bobcat]

I guess i meant less 'punishing' and more just making dreamt info less definitive

and whether that is a good or bad thing

script health wise

[graceful plume]

Although if these are the only reason, Dreamer might still be too strong on a script?

[late ingot]

nah dreamer is much less powerful than people give it credit for

[winter bobcat]

it can narrow worlds. ish

and it can catch out ST miscommunication wrt evil bluffs

[late ingot]

ye, after night one the dreamer mostly learns "the blue token this player is going to be claiming in f3" + "could this player currently be the demon"

Compare this to an Undertaker ("EN*, learn the exact character of the previous executee") or a FT no ("learn 2 players that cannot currently be the demon")

[real heron]

Dreamer is akin to a cannibal, but they’re strong in different ways

Neither are particularly strong and have stronger counterparts for sure

[late ingot]

The Dreamer is still strong, don't get me wrong! It can get a pretty clear "is this a Vortox game" read on SnV and/or confirm itself + another player. On Damsel scripts, it can find the Damsel and "confirm" them so the Demon is baited (magica reference) into killing both players.

but as the Demon, Dreamer is fairly well down my kill list

[real heron]

Yeah, by ‘particularly strong’ I mean ‘strong enough that the script needs a lot of it to be built around it’ (UT for example). They’re both noticeable strong, but usually more flexible than most people think (I think I’m messing up my wording more than Amy, so I’d just defer to her opinion cause it’s quite similar to mine)

[winter bobcat]

especially if you trust your st

[real heron]

Yeah the online setting nerfs dreamer a whole bunch cause an ST can just dm the demon and minions to ask their bluffs

[graceful plume]

I mostly ST in person and keep the days short enough that evils getting their bluffs to me on d1 isn't necessarily a thing they manage to do without others noticing it

[winter bobcat]

This is why you leave your grim sitting somewhere else, so you can put them to sleep when you go get the tokens

and in the meantime you can wake the dreamt target to ask their bluffs

[graceful plume]

I can see how in online games this is a big downside for the dreamer because it's way easier to just dm the ST

Oh I'm putting the Dreamer to sleep anyway after they picked, so I can think in peace about what to show them

[real heron]

I just put the dreamer asleep when I pick out tokens anyway because I think it’s a good way to stop the dreamer from metaing my hand position when grabbing tokens. This is to specifically fight a metagame that my players developed and I didn’t enjoy the sort of discourse the metagame generated

However, I’m fine with the dreamer learning an incorrect role on an evil if the evil player didn’t manage to make it to me to tell me what they were bluffing, cause it makes dreamer a TF and also means my players have good reasons to talk to me, which imo is important

[late vault]

I once showed a drunk dreamer Recluse/Spy
I laughed the whole night

[kind berry]

It's funny to think that "recluse/spy" actually means recluse/spy & you can ignore the misreg

[chilly cedar]

Dreamer is great with spy

Dreamer is ok with recluse

I think Dreamer is not that powerful but it's one of those characters which feel very bad to be on the receiving end of

Like n1 being dreamt as a minion and you have no bluffs, you're on the spot

Now either you need to paint the dreamer as lying or you get outed

[coral jungle]

Why is everyone saying its Dreamer with Spy and Recluse today. Its clearly just Spy... wait now its Dreamer and Recluse. Wait, its Dreamer and Spy again. What is happening?

[chilly cedar]

Anyway back to my main point

I think Dreamer+Village Idiot is a very nice interaction. I think they are both direct check for different things in a player in a very neat way.

I'm less certain about Dreamer+No Dashii though

Wait what

[real heron]

I’ve shown a dreamer lunatic/leviathan in musical chairs. The reaction was so good

[steel kestrel]

[30/10]: Hatter x Fang Gu

[sudden drift]

Fang Gu pairs well with outsiders that are harmful to execute.
Hatter / Fang Gu has a particularly strong evil synergy. It's exactly when the last outsider is executed, that it's most useful for the Fang Gu to become a different demon.
I haven't played a script with this pair but it seems good?

[past brook]

If the fang gu jumps and then kills the hatter evil gets a full extra evil with an ability

Which seems pretty powerful

[graceful plume]

I think it's great. Either evil gets an extra kill at night by jumping to the outsider, or the Hatter dies and evil can hedge their bets by getting another demon type with other upsides, or there's a living Hatter alive at f3 and there's a Fang Gu on the script

[late ingot]

I don't hate it, but I think it might want another reason (besides "outsiders like playing for evil") that the Hatter doesn't just beg for death on d1

[winter bobcat]

That’s why you add a gf

Make it real synergistic

[steel kestrel]

i think it's real interesting how on base 0 outsiders, fang gu that adds a hatter either jumps to the hatter, or, the hatter dies in another way and the fang gu just gets to switch out

[stuck locust]

getting jumped to is usually really beneficial because your team has an extra member, so the Hatter is often better off trying to play for evil

[tawny haven]

It's super powerful for evil but in a good way

[chilly cedar]

Now one inspired by a script I'm working on

[31/10] Alsaahir Summoner

[tulip ivy]

There’s something so funny about guessing one player and winning

I had a player do this once it was so silly

[sudden drift]

Not a disaster
But I want Summoner paired with roles that make solo Summoner less swingy, not more

[green fiber]

I mean I’m not a huge summoner fan to begin with but I really don’t like when it does untraceable deconfirmation which is what can happen here

[frigid flower]

Slayer for 2 days straight

[twilit wedge]

This is kind of a mid interaction. After the summoner summons, it’s kind of neat, and before the summoner summons, it’s basically drunking the Alsahiir unless the Alsahiir happens to be a surprise slayer. I think it makes the Alsahiir feel weaker by reducing its early game power significantly (though this can often be when its information is the most useless) in exchange for giving it funny win potential early on which is an upside. After the summon happens though, it’s mostly as normal, though the summoner can specifically summon a target the Alsahiir is unlikely to guess, which is pretty cool. 5.5 out of 10

[viscid hazel]

I think this is good

[frigid flower]

For you what would be a 10/10 interaction?

Or 9/10

[coral jungle]

This interaction is 7.8/10 too much water

[forest spindle]

It obscures alsahiir guesses but atleast not as much as imp and fang gu does

[coral jungle]

Happy (slightly belated) Halloween! I wanted to run this yesterday, but sadly Autumn got here first. Anyway, in the spirit of the spooky season, I wanted to show you the scariest thing I could find. Avert your eyes, fellow scriptwriters!

11/1: Lleech x Sailor

[fringe mirage]

Bad. Lleech doesn’t like science or exe survival

[coral jungle]

I actually can think of scarier sights for a scriptwiter, but any scarier and I'd be kicked out of the Scriptwriter's Guild.

Jokes aside, yeah this interaction is terrible. Throw it in the trash.

[fringe mirage]

Funnily enough, a few of those are Lleech interactions

[coral jungle]

I think you could maybe let it slide in certain niche scenarios, but good luck finding it.

[fringe mirage]

Lleech ||Golem. ||, Lleech ||Virgin. ||, Leech ||Lycan ||,Lleech ||other execution survival||

[coral jungle]

The rest are Legion interactions.

[coral jungle]

Aaaah, no! Censor it, please!

Quick, cover the children's eyes!

[still sedge]

ehhhh

[fringe mirage]

There :)

[still sedge]

You won't get kicked out

[coral jungle]

Thank you

[still sedge]

because I genuinely don't expect people to get it right the first time(There's too many)

[fringe mirage]

what will get you kicked out?

[still sedge]

ok specifically Lycan/Zealot/Poli Legion because votefails but

Yag gossip is

Organ Grinder Flowergirl

[coral jungle]

Aaaah!!!

[still sedge]

Mez Pithag no SOI

[coral jungle]

|| also Legion/Atheist ||

[still sedge]

not a warcrime

[coral jungle]

I think it's a warcrime at least

[still sedge]

it's a crime

sure

not a warcrime

[coral jungle]

Like, on par with ||legion/magician|| bad

It narrows the game to a coin flip

[still sedge]

Legion magician is worse than I think all of them

[still sedge]

what coin flip, just abuse votefails due to game theory

[coral jungle]

A savvy ST can curb that, but the best you get is a coin flip between the Magician and a legion in f3

With one lone good player being the deciding vote

[rose oriole]

No I think Legion/Atheist is solvable because the people convinced it’s Atheist vote the estee, and if it votefails, you exe the last Legion

[still sedge]

I mean it's incredibly hard to argue that "you shouldn't kill the person outing you and 7 people as evil" when it isn't true isn't the best exe

especially when you can confirm them wrong

[coral jungle]

As for Legion Atheist, again it's a coin flip because they just cover their own tells. Loads of double claims? Could be either! Votefails? Could be either! Stupid amounts of info that doesn't add up? Could be either!

Coin flip

[rose oriole]

Or you do the strategy I mentioned three posts ago

[coral jungle]

I did, it doesn't help

A single good player convinced is basically all it needs.

[rose oriole]

All you have to trust is that no ST will fake a votefail on themselves in F3

[rose oriole]

Ideally Legion shouldn’t be able to convince any good players 100%

[coral jungle]

If you're a good player, and it looks like a Legion/Atheist dilemma, you have to flip a coin.

[rose oriole]

No, you just don’t vote the Storyteller and trust that people either know better than you or they are Legion and it won’t go through.

[coral jungle]

Oh, force testing for legion

[twilit wedge]

this is a bad interaction that i dislike even more because its just so common for new scriptwriters to pair together
it suffers from sounding good for like 2 seconds before you think about it

[coral jungle]

I honestly think that might make it worse tbh.

A statistical win for good is probably worse than a statistical tie

[rose oriole]

Like:
Players 1, 6, and 9 are claiming they are 100% sure it’s Atheist.
Players 5 and 7 are each confirming at least one of 1, 6, and 9 is good.
Players 2, 3, 4, 8, and 10 don’t know if it’s Legion or Atheist.
F3 is 1, 2, 8.

Solution: Players 15679 vote the Storyteller while players 2, 3, 4, and 8 vote for 1. 10 abstains.

Guaranteed good win.

If Legion wants to win they need to cause doubt on who the last living Legion is in Legion worlds as normal.

I like how we got totally sidetracked

[coral jungle]

Yeah, that's definitely worse

[twilit wedge]

two characters that drastically improve each other and promote new gameplay styles that are absent without each other OR make each other significantly more functional by being combined together
like Poli Athiest, or Spy Virgin, or Assassin and ANY of the death mod roles on BMR
these pairs make the roles more interesting and engaging to play and encourage new playstyles and recontextualize the roles and the value they bring

[rose oriole]

Back to Lleech Sailor, the main issue is that if a specific person wants to be scienced, and they happen to be the host, evils just lose.

[twilit wedge]

100%

Sailor without other science turns into a hard self confirm

[coral jungle]

Oh, you don't run Legion alt rules

Oh wait, doesn't change anything

Nevermind

[twilit wedge]

and sailor with lleech and no other exe survival is basically game solving info if someone survives an exe

because it becomes "lleech or sailor" not even just "demon or sailor"

[coral jungle]

Yeah, back to Lleech+Sailor, it's bad

[twilit wedge]

additionally if lleech hosts the sailor they will basically always lose

this isnt a surefire thing, but its very likely

[rose oriole]

The correct way to make Sailor not confirmable is either Devil’s Advocate or MAYBE Wizard.

[twilit wedge]

yeah DA right now is basically required for any exe survival good role

[coral jungle]

Such a common newbie scriptwriter's mistake too. They intuitively work together, but in practice are awful. This is what makes it one of the most dangerous interactions imo. The ones that aren't obviously bad, but the ones that look good but are devils in plain sight

[coral jungle]

No wizard. Wizards shouldn't be pressured to make a certain wish

[rose oriole]

There’s also Boffin but Boffin(Sailor) has its own issues

[twilit wedge]

its less that wizard is pressured and more that the possibility of wizard grants more options

Boffin Sailor is one i kinda like because I like boffin with science roles

and in theory its not any more dangerous than DA final three instawin being a possibility

though its harder to solve for, so it is a bit more dangerous in application

[rose oriole]

Boffin(Sailor) is basically a Poisoner but the Demon chooses

[twilit wedge]

yeah but its inconsistent and is still a whole minion ability

[coral jungle]

Oh, and you have partial immortality. Quadjank at it's finest

But worse in every way, since the ST dictates when your immortality gets turned off

[twilit wedge]

partial immortality is i think the tradeoff for less kills

[coral jungle]

Oh you don't lose kills

The sailor only drunks it's own ability is how the interaction works I think

[twilit wedge]

oh is sailor one of those roles that has inconsistent rules about what the demon being droisoned mean

oh yep sailor self drunks

[coral jungle]

Yeah, I actually posed this to the STing thread. This is how they said it works

[twilit wedge]

so it only drunks the sailor ability

yaaay boffin

[coral jungle]

So basically the ST gets to choose when the demon can die. It can't be always because that denys the Boffin their ability, and it can't be never for obvious reasons.

Boffin can work with execution survival though. Boffin-Pacifist, for example, lets you finally run Outsider pacifist!

(needs DA on script)

[graceful plume]

Instead of DA, Vizier with either Alsaahir or Investigator also works, since the jinx update

[stuck locust]

if you run Sailor as Steven intends this interaction works alright but people hate intended Sailor

go watch the podcast

[weak ingot]

lleech is really hard to support and this just isn't it

sailor's immortality is an upside, but having lleech on script significantly weakens it

Sailor is not an Outsider

[chilly cedar]

Unless....

But yeah it's a common pair

It comes from the idea that all evil characters need to have a good explanation

[still sedge]

Lleech being the one exception is

Funny

[stuck locust]

and psychopath

until...

[tawny haven]

I mean the main problem is that the Sailor is the worst host ever right

[graceful plume]

Yeah the most important thing Lleech asks of a script is "Please can I have players that don't actively want to kill themself" and Sailor says "Hi guys I'm a good Poisoner unless we try to kill me each day so I can get at least some info. SCIENCE"

[runic solstice]

Don't forget cannibal

[late ingot]

The "good character that can survive execution" for Lleech to bluff is atheist

or recluse with the philo-alch-boffin-alch-vizier ability

[stuck locust]

that's why I said intended Sailor

Sailor isn't supposed to be able to meta the ST on why they were made drunk

or not

so it doesn't actually want to be scienced

[edgy socket]

imo the main problem is being the sailor on a lleech script is pretty miserable because you will be built lleech forever and also that the bluff isn't that useful for a lleech if you want to push worlds or not be outed non-flagbearer

[tawny haven]

true, you get tapped once and never again

[winter bobcat]

you're missing lleech || courtier ||

[winter bobcat]

also you have to be very careful when choosing so you don't obscure the actual host

[graceful plume]

Lleech ||deez nuts lmao gotem||

[winter bobcat]

Also if there is both lleech and sailor it gets quickly into ET dynamics

[fringe mirage]

11/2: Politician x Boomdandy

[twilit wedge]

Politician helping fire off the Boomdandy is fun

And for the vote is nice

[real heron]

Somehow TB expert mode has been referenced more than once in a single day

[real heron]

Just have an ST that is experienced enough to make an atheist game that is distinct from a legion-bluffed game. It’s really hard to do that, since a lot of those things would require specific things on the script, but I think those two things is what that comes down to

[stuck locust]

they don't need to be entirely mechanically distinct

how often do you hardsolve a game

[vast inlet]

11/3: Marionette x Drunk

[sudden drift]

for the most part, these do not belong on the same script

Drunk has a similar effect to Marionette on the game, but it costs 1 Outsider rather than 1 entire Minion

[twilit wedge]

I think conceptually these two are fun together and the right script can make them work but the fact that drunk is often underestimated in terms of damage it does to good and the fact this makes it even harder to sus out the fact that you are the marionette or not it can be kind of ehhh…

One of these days im going to slip politican Athiest into this thread

[graceful plume]

Mario on a script also makes it slightly harder to get people on the block because people are less likely to vote on their neighbors

But for a script to be able to handle both Drunk and Mario, there needs to be a lot of strong droison solvers

[real heron]

The new jinxes with marionette and drunk make the two only distinguishable in that way by acro. But maybe mathematician with alignment checkers is fine

[chilly cedar]

Another way to solve it is by getting exact character solvers. This is something drunk wants (Dreamers, Undertakers, Ravenkeepers).

The issue is Marionette does not want these because it makes them and the demon more obvious

[real heron]

Yeah. Maybe dreamer is fine, but that probably requires a decent amount of forethought on the evil side of dreams

[graceful plume]

Dreaming someone as either Drunk or Marionette is fun

[coral jungle]

These two characters do not interact

[chilly cedar]

That is a somewhat fair take

But they can cover for eachother

Like if I have nightwatchman and marionette on the same script, drunk can be another reason for it not to proc

[coral jungle]

Balloonist is an interesting thought, pairs well into both characters.

[winter bobcat]

11/4: Tor x Toymaker

[green fiber]

you can make demons think they have a OPG by asking "use your ability"

[winter bobcat]

(I am not aware of a jinx)

[green fiber]

thats funny

besides that idk

i dont think evil gets minion/demon info on tor scripts

[winter bobcat]

i guess that's kinda what i was curious about, how people rule it

[coral jungle]

A Tor-maker if you will

I'll see myself out

[sudden drift]

11/5: Boffin x Puzzlemaster

[coral jungle]

Puzzledrunk Boffin is very cool.

Oh you mean as a Boffin ability? I guess that's an okay boffin ability. It only permapoisons one player, trading one of the benefits of Widow for the downside.

Its a good interaction

But still, Puzzledrunk Boffin!

[twilit wedge]

its essentially old boffin drunk but the st picks

very strong for evil but not overwhelmingly so

[sudden drift]

I worry about it being very strong
Since it's not only Boffin-PM that good has to build around, it's every Boffin ability

I have a script that wants {Boffin, Puzzlemaster, Innkeeper, Pukka}, but all 4 at once feels like too much to reason about

[late ingot]

I hate this less than some other folks seem to

[boreal hornet]

it seems fun when not put on snv

[graceful plume]

It's my favorite outsider ability to give to the demon

Except for maybe Plague Doctor, if given to an Imp/Zombuul

[twilit wedge]

I think it’s a very fun combination

As a full minion ability it’s basically a widow poison without grim peeking, announcement, and the ST chooses it

[coral jungle]

A lot of scriptwriters seem to love it. A lot of players really hate it.

I love this interaction

[twilit wedge]

I think a lot of players hate Boffin in general

[graceful plume]

A lot of players are wrong

[coral jungle]

Someone find the everyone pretends this works token. I need to post a clown emoji next to it.

[graceful plume]

Also, the minor upside is the Demon can learn who is puzzledrunk by guessing them. If they learn themself, they found the puzzledrunk and thus can learn who is lying or who is actually getting wrong info

[winter bobcat]

wrong day

[real heron]

Yeah but the ST choice presumably means it’s likely impactful

[real heron]

The point of the previous one is that it was in fact 11/4 in Australia etc so I’d suggest changing the date if that one to 11/5

[vast inlet]

Boffin as a character I have mixed feelings about because of how many jank-feeling interactions it has, but it does a good job at opening up worlds on the right script, and puzzlemaster is a good potential boffin ability for that exact reason

[winter bobcat]

it is also a case of a somewhat viable boffin omod

which i feel is an underdiscussed aspect of the character

[sudden drift]

Boffin-PM doesn't change how many outsider claims there can be. I like Boffin-Balloonist for that

[tawny haven]

Call me a hater but I really dislike this

Like, it's fine in practice, I've put it into play before and good has solved out the exact Boffin-Puzzledrunk

I just don't like how it feels even though it absolutely works practically

[frigid flower]

Its better that boffin courtier?

[winter bobcat]

is it that different from boffin drunk?

[steel kestrel]

well boffin drunk is now no longer a thing so in a way, yeah

[tawny haven]

Yeah, and I didn't like that one either 😂

boffin-philo also feels really strong for similar reasons

I do rack them when they're onscript, and they're usually fine, it's just a vibe judgement

it's 100% irrational

[late ingot]

well boffin drunk is now illegal

[winter bobcat]

at home

[chilly cedar]

It's fine

Just

Don't script it with no Dashii please

Maybe its a bagbuild better scenario

But I think it's reasonable as long as your demons arent crazy poisoners too

If your Minion suite is supposed to be where the misinformation is, that's fine

If your demons are, it can be a bit much

That's a me thing though

[graceful plume]

What are you building anyway where the script has both No Dashii and Puzzlemaster in the first place?

[chilly cedar]

Oh

What about

Final Nail in the Boffin

One of the best boffin scripts out there

[graceful plume]

Oh hmm I never noticed that

[chilly cedar]

And winner of the boffin contest

It's possible to bagbuild but it's just a soft no fro me

That'more a Puzzlemaster no Dashii think tho

It's a great boffin ability

[graceful plume]

Yes exactly, PM Boffin is great, just not for a No Dashii, but that has more to do with the fact that I don't like PM No Dashii to begin with

[hollow fulcrum]

it’s basically widow poisoning minus widow and far harder to solve for

[real heron]

I think part of why is cause boffin and courtier on the same script sounds mildly cursed ngl

[real heron]

Is LM or no dashii more cursed with boffin/PM?

[tulip sage]

[11/6]

Summoner x Legion

Jinx: "If Legion is summoned, all evil players become Legion."

[coral jungle]

@still sedge Let's hear the opinion of our forefront Legion expert. Take it away, Parker.

[still sedge]

good no this is fine

there are no problems with this jinx, multiple demons+kills but(very minor voting thing) and you don't control kills

oh yeah and legion will probably die at night

the 3 legion players

[coral jungle]

You heard it here folks. Back to you, @tulip sage, in the studio.

[twilit wedge]

This jinx is fine and I think this interaction is actually okay

Nothing spectacular

But it’s functional

[jaunty tapir]

I think this one's actually pretty cool because it almost gives everyone the scarlet woman ability, since they're all the demon

[twilit wedge]

Honestly on second thought I like it a bit more

I was a bit unenthused because

Summoner kind of disappoints me

But this is a genuinely interesting interaction with summoner

One that plays differently than other demons

[weak ingot]

List of past interactions with new/updated jinxes

7 August
-# Evil does not win when more than 1 good player has been executed, if the Exorcist is alive and has ever successfully chosen the Leviathan.
⸂If the Leviathan nominates and executes the Exorcist-chosen player, good wins.⸃

23 August
-# If the Vizier loses their ability, they learn this. If the Vizier is executed while they have their ability, their team wins.
⸂If the Vizier loses their ability, they learn this, and cannot die during the day.⸃

26 September
-# If the Plague Doctor dies, a living Minion gains the Scarlet Woman ability in addition to their own ability, and learns this.
⸂If the Storyteller would gain the Scarlet Woman ability, a Minion gains it, and learns this.⸃

24 September
-# If the Alchemist has the Spy ability, they do not, and a Spy is in play. Each day, after the execution phase, the living Alchemist may publicly guess a living player as the Spy. If correct, the Demon must choose the Spy tonight.
⸂An Alchemist-Spy has no Spy ability & a Spy is in play. After each execution, a living Alchemist-Spy may publicly guess a living player as the Spy. If correct, the Demon must choose the Spy tonight.⸃

27 September
-# If there are 5 or more players alive and the player holding the Lil' Monsta token dies, the Scarlet Woman is given the Lil' Monsta token tonight.
⸂If Lil' Monsta dies with 5 or more players alive, the Scarlet Woman babysits Lil' Monsta for the rest of the game.⸃

8 October
-# The Summoner cannot create an in-play Demon. If the Summoner creates a not-in-play Demon, deaths tonight are arbitrary.
⸂If the Summoner creates a second living Demon, deaths tonight are arbitrary.⸃

[frigid flower]

Evil traveller becoming a normal player mid game:

[real heron]

Travellers on a legion script sound kind of wild ngl

[tulip ivy]

I mean it needs to exist no

[tulip ivy]

Illegal unless you use the optional rule thankfully

[real heron]

Yeah I know. It’s not a thing of ‘legion with travellers is bad’ it’s just that it’s ’different to the point where I’d imagine they play more differently than other scripts’

[tulip ivy]

Fair

[graceful plume]

Do evil travelers learn all Legions?

[coral jungle]

One legion

[real heron]

Yeah, especially with a PG on script

[edgy socket]

RAW one but all is funnier

[frigid flower]

The jinx literaly says all evil players become legion.

[summer adder]

yea but there’s a rule where travellers cant become nontravellers

because then it would technically be illegal for them to travel out

which is where the optional rule comes in

[frigid flower]

I was in a game where the traveller became legion and it outed legion right away

And what about apprentice scarlet woman?

[frigid flower]

Where is that rule to be exact?

A friend of mine is asking

[tulip ivy]

Core rule book iirc

I feel like this gets cited a ton

[summer adder]

page 25 of the rulebook

@frigid flower

[frigid flower]

Thanks

[vale frigate]

why cant you just not run it like that

make them a traveller version of their new character, and dont announce the character change

that might not work for all travellers and situations, but it should cover some

[fringe mirage]

11/7: Bounty Hunter x Wraith

[green fiber]

wraith can aura farm

[twilit wedge]

i think this is really fun for the evil players

the evil town gets to hook up with the wraith early on and coordinate with evil

the downside is

this makes BH more swingy by making evil much stronger in games where it flubs

the extra evil hurts good, but it being mostly an unknown for evil helps make it less punishing and allows BH to try to get some surprise use out of it if the town dies in the night or gets executed because evil doesnt mind voting on them

this makes it less likely to happen and hurts the BH's strength

I still think its fun, but thats because I like BH

[green fiber]

https://tenor.com/view/joker-very-poor-choice-words-gif-22861860

[twilit wedge]

you know what im sure the wraith sees a lot of things

[fervent basalt]

imo wraith with BH is fun for the wraith but has potential to feel extra bad for town if the BH dies early

[stuck locust]

hugely powerful for evil so only works in an environment where BH is unusually strong

[wary solstice]

||Was anyone in any serious doubt that the Wraith is a voyeur?||

[winter bobcat]

Didn’t we address this in the crime prompt the other day in secret thing?

[chilly cedar]

Very strong for evil

But also like

Probably better than BH poisoner/widow

I don't know what the power level for wraith is

Its benefits are difficult to evaluate

[winter bobcat]

incredibly variable across groups

[chilly cedar]

Yeah

Like its ability is difficult to compare with other characters

[winter bobcat]

its kinda a meta ability like math

[chilly cedar]

And it doesn't help it's honestly very difficult to make work online

I know people have made versions of wraith for online play

[winter bobcat]

its the only one who can actually engage online

[chilly cedar]

But I suspect it's not the same

[winter bobcat]

everyone else just can't look at their screens while its night

so they just can't make choices

its not a great system tbh

\j

[chilly cedar]

I think math is just difficult to understand

[winter bobcat]

its also a meta ability though

[chilly cedar]

But it does do something mechanical

[winter bobcat]

regardless of the conceptual difficulty

[chilly cedar]

Wraith is like, very improv

Like you can't say it does something specific

Spy and Widow get to physically see the grim

How do you value better communication for an evil team?

And better bluffs

[winter bobcat]

it can observe the storyteller and communicate with evils at night

[chilly cedar]

Not much actually foes that which makes it hard to compare

[winter bobcat]

you also get to observe choices which can be very relevant

[chilly cedar]

And ye in this case it does do smth BC of bounty hunter wraith

I have a duo which probably is boring but good for this

[winter bobcat]

i also cannot tell whether showing the BH the wraith is helpful or anything

[chilly cedar]

Hmm

Slightly helpful

[winter bobcat]

like on one hand, a daring wraith is pretty easy to get executed

so gets BH more info

on the other, that same wraith would already be pretty public

so bh doesn't get much info/credibility

[chilly cedar]

A bounty hunter can't keep an eye out on wraiths several nights in a row

[twilit wedge]

use the optional wraith rule

[chilly cedar]

I think it's good

[twilit wedge]

kill the bounter hunter d1

[chilly cedar]

Bounty Hunter needs help

Sadly it's balance is wacky

It does balance it out

The bounty hunter might get a minion that's easier than average to kill

The wraith gets to know their extra evil

I think it's still evil sided overall but it's quite a nuanced duo

[chilly cedar]

11/8 Dreamer x Snitch

In my mind this is a good combo, but it is rarely used. This is because often Spy or Widow is paired with Dreamer, meaning that those scripts are less likely to have Snitch.

But I think it's neat. It makes Dreamer snipes less damaging for the evil team and I think that's neat.

[tulip ivy]

Snitch and violence kinda goes hard

[twilit wedge]

Sniolence

[tulip ivy]

Snitches &get Vstitches

[wary solstice]

You could put Boffin on a script, as that'd allow a Demon to have the Dreamer ability and simulate it, without needing Spy or Widow.

[twilit wedge]

I think this is a fun combo ive never thought about it before but it works nice

[chilly cedar]

Is snitch and violence an actual script

[tulip ivy]

No

It should be

I’ll make it one day

[chilly cedar]

Funnily enough my other option was

[wary solstice]

Not yet*

[chilly cedar]

Snitch x Evil Twin

[wary solstice]

lol, so Evil Twin can claim something else?

[chilly cedar]

Which also is very cool imo

Yeah

[tulip ivy]

Wait that’s so silly

[chilly cedar]

And you can also just fake twin pairs

With both sides claiming something different

It's similar to Kazali Evil Twin

One of my favourite concepts which sadly doesn't really work

[twilit wedge]

back in my day we gambled and tried to hit the good twin with the cerenovus

[chilly cedar]

But ye Dreamer Snitch and Boffin sound like an excellent core for a start of a script

That sounds like a fantastic 3 way combo

That's hilarious

I already made a script with that

One of my recent ones too. I guess it was on my mind lmao

[wary solstice]

Snitch has no problem with revealing themselves usually, and a Dreamer would be more interesting if people didn't want to come out with their roles necessarily like in SnV. Including something like a Fang Gu on such a script could be fun (which of course is quite good with Boffin) to make outsiders hesistate to reveal themselves

[chilly cedar]

That works well

Boffin also helps part of it

[wary solstice]

Boffin-Dreamer Fang Gu also means a Demon who can search for outsiders <_<

[chilly cedar]

Ye

It's a very solid start.

[wary solstice]

LoT also works well for the Minions in a Dreamer game, as you can just show the original role anyway if the Minion is sniped. But with Snitch, you give options. Just show the original role as one of the Bluffs to not make it overwhelming

[chilly cedar]

Yee

My current script is lord of Typhon but not fang gu

It's interesting though how our minds work slightly differently

We got to a similar place but my script would be LoT Vortox No Dashii

While yours currently uses a LoT Fang Gu base

To be fair we would be highlighting different things

[forest spindle]

Did this on my atheist script to make evil twin able to deny the pair and insist its atheist

[vale frigate]

To be fair, an atheist can simulate a two way pair

[forest spindle]

abseloutly

[forest spindle]

11/9 Lleech x Boomdandy

[chilly cedar]

Great#

This is a good combo

They synergise withe ach other well

[twilit wedge]

yeah i like this combination quite a lot i think its very fun

[winter bobcat]

you just gotta be careful with outed lleech

and whether you leave 3 or 4 alive

[summer adder]

i mean, if you leave 4 alive everyone just points at a dead player/the lleech and waits for the lleech to kill down to 3. That way they dont have to worry about the boomdandy countdown

i think i would always kill down to 3 with boomdandy

[coral jungle]

Good interaction. You can have it become a coin flip between who to kill, but that's something I refer to as a "skill issue"

[steady granite]

this is an unfortunate case where the interaction is "fantastic when scripted together, rancid when bag built together"

having a boomdandy on script makes executing into people who think they are the lleech host risky, because they could be a boomdandy who wants to be executed

but if a boomdandy explodes in a real lleech game, you have to leave alive the lleech and the host, and then the town has around 10 seconds to figure out if it is a lleech game

which to be fair, makes boomdandy actually helpful, but it requires an unfun 50/50 (although, this is what happens in most lleech games on final 3 anyway)

[coral jungle]

I keep hearing jokes about Boomdandy not being helpful. Since when was it not helpful?

[winter bobcat]

when it narrows it down to the procd virgin, the imp and sober sailor

[summer adder]

okay thats a ST issue

please kill the virgin with the boomdandy

[winter bobcat]

you'd be surprised at the number of STs who don't mentally prep a boomdandy proc even if its in the grim until it happens

and so make bad choices trying to do it quickly

[coral jungle]

Wait, are we talking about the Boomdandy or the Savant?

[winter bobcat]

also wait, if you boomdandy kill the sweetheart, can you then make the boom drunk and stop killing?

[summer adder]

yes but why

[coral jungle]

That makes sense

[winter bobcat]

yag bluff

obvi

[coral jungle]

[winter bobcat]

naw, bc boom's gotta be exed first

[coral jungle]

I mean, anything Boom can do with that, Witch can do better

[winter bobcat]

boom is a faster accelerant though

and ST has full agency

[edgy socket]

Boomdandy's ability is "you reduce the number of demon candidates", which needs super sharp penalties to cross the threshold of viability for a minion ability

Old boom had a notorious tendency to help town

New boom is a more viable minion but it is still not the best

[coral jungle]

Yeah, 60 seconds is absurd

[winter bobcat]

does zombuul help with this at all?

[edgy socket]

Boom still fundamentally has the mastermind problem where it's strongest immediately but way more severe than mastermind itself has

[coral jungle]

I feel like any ST running boom needs to A. Have a plan if the boom gets executed. B. Leave the three obvious demon candidates. And C. Count down from ten very very fast.

[edgy socket]

Probably but in the sense of being really cracked

[coral jungle]

Not ten seconds, five seconds I'd say

[winter bobcat]

keep in mind zomb doesn't get a kill bc people died during the day

so even still?

or is the accelerant so powerful that it doesn't matter

[edgy socket]

It's a drawback for sure but it is still a pretty sharp accelerant for the demon that lengthens the game as the specific balance to "never removing a demon candidate to its own ability"

It's not necessarily a scripting issue, I don't really have experience scripting around boom

But intuitively and from seeing e.g. zombuul lycan it seems really strong

[coral jungle]

I mean, for the Lycan

[edgy socket]

I've watched multiple zombuul lycan games end in 'sudden unsignalled f2 where no one has been double tapped and no dead players have been considered as zombuul candidates'

I suspect some of these interactions are in the cluster of "things a group can gain experience with but zombuul is on so few customs that its custom-specific play patterns are rarely things a group has opportunity to gain experience with"

[frigid flower]

Thats kind of boomdandys whole deal, not knowing who to kill and having to just have luck

[winter bobcat]

Can i get tomorrow's question?

[stuck locust]

I think generally this channel doesn't do reservations but idk

[summer adder]

you can do today's

[stuck locust]

oh yeah we don't even have one

[coral jungle]

Sure @winter bobcat, go right ahead and post it!

[winter bobcat]

Today’s is leech boom no?

[11/10]: Lycanthrope x Wraith

[real heron]

I’m bootlegging this interaction if it’s on a script I make. I think the wraith being prompted to wake with the faux paw is cringe and they can just get caught out on it which is huge pain for the wraith

[winter bobcat]

But does knowing the faux paw at least help somewhat?

[stuck locust]

uh you don't need a Bootlegger for that

it's been (sadly) confirmed by jams that the Wraith doesn't get prompted to wake with the faux paw

tbc this is a ludicrous ruling

[still sedge]

That’s a good thing

[real heron]

Oh that’s absolutely a good thing

[real heron]

Why?

[winter bobcat]

its fine as a jinx

but its incredibly unintuitive with the text of the chars

[summer adder]

that was yesterday

[stuck locust]

a) it's not how the interaction works if you follow the abilities (yet another backwards ruling I need to make players aware of when they inevitably misinterpret it)
b) the Wraith wakes first so it's fine anyway, they just close their eyes when they see that it's not a fellow evil being woken, or squint or try to hide or anything

if TPI really dislike the interaction, make it a bloody jinx

you have a jinx that does nothing

and you don't want to jinx this

it's so inconsistent

[still sedge]

This

[real heron]

The wraith can’t just close their eyes when the player is being woken for online play

[still sedge]

Assumes the wraith has that reaction time

I do not need quick time events in clocktower

[stuck locust]

I have never played with Wraith online before, but remember that online is a port of the game and if it's a good port this should be something the Wraith can do

can they not?

[stuck locust]

the ST can make sure the Wraith is aware of who they're about to wake up

the Wraith already wants to do this with Cult Leader for instance

or Goon oftentimes

I assume however the app handles this allows the Wraith to choose not to make Goons and Cult Leaders aware of their presence

if not that seems a large oversight

[real heron]

Not when they’re prompted to open their eyes. They either see the entire night card info and have the ‘wide open’ chance of being caught or they have to somehow intuit that it’s not actually an evil player being woken and close their eyes before seeing the night card

At least I’m pretty sure that’s how that works

[stuck locust]

hmm

[real heron]

Anyway I’ve already made my position clear

I think it’s unintuitive to have as a non-jinx, but since it’s not a jinx, I’m making a bootlegger on scripts I make or run to make it clearer to people seeing it or my players

[stuck locust]

that's interesting

I guess app!Wraith is kind of ass with Cult Leader

but we'll take any Cult Leaders buff we can get

so maybe it's a dub in disguise

[real heron]

Also, the wraith waking with impermanent evils isn’t an inherent issue and can just be fixed by better STing (which sounds like an excuse cause it kinda is)

[stuck locust]

how do you fix it with better STing?

or "fix" it (I don't think it's broken)

[coral jungle]

This interaction is garbage if anyone asks

TPI please make a jinx

[real heron]

Just tell the wraith when promoting them who you’re waking them up with

Cause online makes that 100x easier

[stuck locust]

I mean it's pretty easy to make slow and deliberate indicating movements in person too

[winter bobcat]

Couldn't you just point at the script?

[stuck locust]

you can't tell them which character

why would they be privy to that information

I mean like which player

[winter bobcat]

Oh i meant lycan

But yeah fair

Also we're not really discussing the non-FP part of this interaction

[frigid flower]

Knowing who is the faux paw does sound interesting

But it goes a bit against the ruling of (players who strickly see a good token (but are evil) dont register to the wraith)

[stuck locust]

where is that ruling?

so the Wraith doesn't wake with Mario?

I swear they do

[frigid flower]

They dont as of the almanac anything that confirms they are the marionette is hidden away

Apply that same logic to the faux paw and its the same.

[wide portal]

I'm not sure I've seen anything that suggests the Wraith doesn't wake with a Marionette

you don't do things to the Marionette that would confirm to them they're the Marionette, the same doesn't apply to other players

[frigid flower]

Yeah the wraith can just wake with someone and tell them they are the marionette also

But what im saying here is a speculation really

[stuck locust]

also because the Wraith is woken first it confirms nothing to the Marionette

[wild bridge]

11/11 Lunatic X Evil Twin

[edgy socket]

Remember to give a twin as a lunatic minion if you want it to last longer than 15 seconds

(I have forgotten to do this before)

[wild bridge]

Yep, my reason for submitting this is looking at that interaction.

Probably worth discussing more than the admittedly-hillarious situation of giving the Lunatic an Evil Twin, and showing the Evil Twin to a player who previously thought they were the Demon.

[winter bobcat]

Unless there's exactly alchemist and lycan/bh/recluse on script

[fringe mirage]

I mean, let’s be honest, Lunatic generally lasts 15 seconds anyway unless it’s a Poppy, Magician, or Mario script

[frigid flower]

Classic Twinning fake spy (real deamon)

[fringe mirage]

But yeah, not much to lose by giving a twin

[winter bobcat]

Oh mygod you can't do that! That's turning an Outsider into the invetigator

[frigid flower]

Its an interaction based on teensyville

[winter bobcat]

Thts illegal

[wary solstice]

It takes some immense effort on the part of ST to even try to string along a Lunatic longer than a day without these.

[winter bobcat]

And a coordinated evil team that is outed the instant the Luna figures it out

[wary solstice]

I managed it once when STing BMR in a text game by giving the Zombuul Lunatic two 'Minions' next to each other across the grim along with a fake Lunatic and having the fake Lunatic give a 'Demon whisper'. It convinced the Lunatic long enough that they were legit and that they didn't need to contact their Evil Team right away and that they could just Demon Whisper them.

It lasted the day and night. Then the next day, 3 people dropped dead and they knew something wasn't right.

[wild bridge]

One problem with Lunatic + Evil Twin is that Lunatic (if ST wants a duped Lunatic) will always show the Evil Twin not the Good Twin because only the Evil Twin will string the Lunatic along, which means that when the Lunatic finds out, the Lunatic immediately learns the Evil Twin.

[vale frigate]

Or they can show the good twin

And hope they don't talk to each other

That's kinda the same deal as showing any good players as minions

[vale frigate]

And tbf, they don't have much to talk about

[wild bridge]

Sure but with Twins once you find out you have a good "minion" you also necessarily learn an evil actual minion. That being said, it's always possible that an Evil Twin might not string along the Lunatic and then gain social cred for doing so, making it less obvious for the Lunatic about who's necessarily good or evil. Additionally, I'd agree that your "Why talk?" point is salient.

[steady granite]

personally if I was the evil twin and a lunatic approached me I would almost definitely not lead them on

[frigid flower]

Needs script support

[fringe mirage]

yeah. Its kinda to the point where if it isnt with one of those, I basically just throw dice to decide what they see

because yeah, it falls apart right away

[stuck locust]

if it's falling apart instantly then how is the demon always taking to a minion straight away?

[winter bobcat]

[11/12]: Stormcatcher x Cerenovus

[spare hinge]

I think of the "circumvent Stormcatcher" Minions I like this one the most?

[winter bobcat]

I mean its just Cere or Vizier that can circumvent modern SC?

I guess assassin if you rule it that way (I generally don't)

[spare hinge]

Poisoner is the big candidate

[winter bobcat]

right, ineffective not dead is still circumventing

in that case i guess widow would be the other, no?

unless you are referring to poisoning the SC, which i think only courier has the possibility to do. aside from atheist/amne/wiz ofc

but courtier is also a stretch tbh

[spare hinge]

Widow can kind of do the same thing with or without SC

[winter bobcat]

that's why, if you have widow, you've gotta give juicier targets

[spare hinge]

True, though the appeal of SC ime is often making the juicy targets untargetable

[winter bobcat]

then don't have a circumvent SC minion on script

or in play then

[spare hinge]

Which is what I'd generally suggest

Though I do enjoy Cerenovus

[winter bobcat]

i think it gives interesting counterplay more than any of the others

although this has made me think of SC-Mutant and whether that is interesting

ykw, i don't like this confusion, from now on I'm calling stormcaught as scot, instead of SC, and I welcome anyone else who wants to join me

(scott is also acceptable)

[spare hinge]

why not storc

[winter bobcat]

because i can definitely conceive of a character or Loric named Stork

but Scott just seems to farfetched

[winter bobcat]

most likely having something to do with who holds LM

but this is just my personal nomenclature

[tawny haven]

Cere/SC is very fun

make the stormcaught player mad as something else! make other players mad as the stormcaught character! you've got a lot of room to play there

[twilit wedge]

I like this one a lot, no comments that aren’t already shared
It’s good

[magic ferry]

soon

(I've just spent 2 hours cooking something which I think is genuinely really cool)

[coral jungle]

Is it a pie?

[spice ferry]

saskatoon berry and rhubarb pie goes hard!

[coral jungle]

11/13 Clockmaker x Goblin

Or, my struggle to make clockmaker actually work on a script.

[spare hinge]

I think this runs into two problems, one of which is a subset of the other;

1. Clockmaker doesn't really work with characters that lead to outed evil players.
2. Clockmaker doesn't go on scripts

[green fiber]

2. Witch Hunt would like to speak with you

[winter bobcat]

Isn't that LM?

LM scripts aren't real, we've established this

[green fiber]

it’s LM Typhon Imp yeah

oh not the world cup one

different one

(I was first!1!1 it’s not fair waaaaaaaaah!!!!!!!)

[sudden drift]

It's not a script disaster. But Goblin makes Clockmaker stronger, and Clockmaker wants to be paired with characters that make it weaker.

What if Vortox is on script?

[coral jungle]

Vortox is basically a requirement with Clockmaker imo

[tawny haven]

me with flesh and bone

(i caved and renamed it to fire & flood because spirit island reference)

[winter bobcat]

holy 7 energy batman

[green fiber]

simply name it bone and flesh 😎

[tawny haven]

yeah but spirits like volcano have the energy economy to use overcosted majors

[winter bobcat]

nah fish & chips

[tawny haven]

so it's not like, total ass

[winter bobcat]

embrace your roots

[tawny haven]

towering roots

no way

spiland

[winter bobcat]

wait, i didnt notice this before

of the breaking dawn?

[winter bobcat]

why aren't you going bottom track volc?

*every spirit is a bottom track if you're afraid enough of drafting majors

[tawny haven]

because redrevenge is a hack and top path + spamming G3 is based

you've heard of casino starlight, get ready for casino volcano

[winter bobcat]

no, the true casino is green

[tawny haven]

green like clocktower :O

[winter bobcat]

lorics?

fractured days loric when?

bluffs that never were

(me when i show drunk in the bluffs of a b0 nonbaron tb game)

[late ingot]

wait Wizkid what spirit do you main again?

[winter bobcat]

Memory mostly

Throw in starlight and serpent depending on others at the table/if im multihanding

[late ingot]

understandable

good old memory serpent

[winter bobcat]

Green if i need a fourth tier

[late ingot]

green is great to have at the table but it's been a while since I super enjoyed playing it

[winter bobcat]

I'm guessing you haven't played G4 spamming casino green

[late ingot]

no, actually

I played green B4 I got gud (well, intermediate) and I mostly play lure/keeper atm

looking forward to learning wounded waters when it drops on app

[winter bobcat]

It's better once someone hits constancy to spam prolif

But it's still fun

[late ingot]

playing solo lure is so sad bc constancy genuinely is often not the pick

Every spirit I regularly play pops off at hazards spread, though

[winter bobcat]

new secret thing question just dropped: whats your favorite character's spirit main/favorite major/minor?

[late ingot]

: entwined power

[coral jungle]

Back to the interaction at hand...

[winter bobcat]

: Transsac

[rose oriole]

Clockmaker is ironically not fully a Goblin solver in the "all evils claim Goblin" situation if you think about it

Cast Down Into the Briny Deep

[late ingot]

I don't love clockmaker + goblin -- having an evil pinpointed for sure on one side of the clock number suuucks

[tawny haven]

clock/goblin is like okay i guess? the problem there is clockmaker, not the goblin.

Sea Monsters

[twilit wedge]

The problem is usually clockmaker in all circumstances tbh

[stuck locust]

clockmaker is made more powerful by characters that encourage outed evils, and because Clockmaker is strong it should generally be scripted with characters that make it weaker

(like how Poisoner needs to be scripted with characters that make it weaker)

so the "problem" is with the interaction, not one specific character

[winter bobcat]

For anyone who might be confused, clock is almost never a goblinsolver so don't try to make it one. its an evilfinder/world closer

(the only time clock is a goblin solver if say the demon neighbors the vizier but goblin is on the other side of the grim in a 2 minion game)

[magic ferry]

(I'm going to do a cheeky bit of advertising https://discord.com/channels/569683781800296501/1438648940110151802)

[spare hinge]

If one specific character has a lot of problematic interactions, I'd argue one could call the character problematic lmao

oh, no interaction yet

[11/14]

Mayor x Evil Twin

[coral jungle]

On one hand, the Mayor is definitely real now. On the other hand, if it gets to final 3 evil has won

ET just completely nuetralizes Mayor when Mayor wins are hard enough to get on their own

[pallid ginkgo]

its bad because Mayor is bad

[weak ingot]

Mayor wins are incredibly difficult and ET doesn't help it

if you‘re twinning the Mayor you‘ve actually managed to make Mayor an Outsider

[viscid hazel]

I don't think it's so bad

If you figure out the evil twin you can win the game

[chilly cedar]

Has nuance

Gets no information.

It cannot solve the twin pair if outside the pair.

Twin Mayors are indistinguishable if inside the twin pair.

If a script has a lot of characters of this type (Soldier, Magician, Huntsman), then the twins need to be solved socially, which isn't always possible, and can lead to wins/losses which are random.

If it's just Evil Twin Mayor then it's more OK. But they don't have synergy, so too many characters of that type make the Evil Twin less compelling as a character.

Evil Twin wants scripts where good can get information. Good can solve the twin pairs using their information. People in the twin pairs can push on their information and try to lead town.

Mayor doesn't allow this in both cases.

[frigid flower]

If the good team solves the twin pair, the good team has won if the confirmed mayor gets to final 3

[chilly cedar]

The mayor twin cannot give information that incriminates itself. But it's a valid point

[frigid flower]

Not a outstanding combo honestly

Very swingy

[viscid hazel]

I think it's fine if the mayor is outside the twin pair

[sudden drift]

If you twin the mayor, then (depending on the script) town can forget about the demon hunt and focus entirely on which twin is good. Not very fun for either player in the twin pair IMO.

If the Mayor is outside the twin pair, then the Mayor wants to convince town to execute into the twins earlier, so they can get their win. Idk if that's fun

[hollow fulcrum]

well, a confirmed mayor is gonna die in the night

[winter bobcat]

then you don't have to worry about a twin loss

[hollow fulcrum]

“confirmed” in this case meaning “their twin was executed and the game continued” (which is notably not true confirmation in a lot of cases) meaning the twin loss is already off the table

[hollow fulcrum]

idk what you mean by the last part? the twin pair has already usually been executed into before f3 because otherwise good might run into a no win situation and the mayor doesn’t care about them being executed into before that point

[late ingot]

I think this interaction is nonintuitive to bagbuild/storytell with but can be ok?

if town has enough information to solve for one of demon/twins reliably or solve for both with a more modest success rate, then the mayor claim will tip the scales a bit

[sudden drift]

Usually in my group, town tries to execute the demon first, and then executes into twins once people stop dying at night. (Low sample size though.)

[hollow fulcrum]

yeah that works fine until you start getting down to like f5

[sudden drift]

On f5 I advocate to sleep and then try to execute the demon on f4 and then the evil twin on f3.
This doesn't work if the twins are fake I guess

[jaunty tapir]

Perhaps I'm devil's-advocating but maybe it's good, especially on low player counts: since twin demands that you spend an extra execution into minion candidates and not demon ones, you'll usually end up with more demon candidates in f3 which is when mayor kinda shines

[stuck locust]

yeah, Clockmaker is a difficult character to make work which is why it has a home script on which it works great, unlike a certain other mistake

[frigid flower]

Whose cult is it anyway?

For me its the cult leader's home script

[stuck locust]

but is it a good script

you remove CL it's 10 times better

[frigid flower]

Are you saying that Wciia is bad???

[winter bobcat]

[11/15]: Cerenovus x Boomdandy

[coral jungle]

Rule #1: If the Boomdandy breaks Cere madness, DO NOT EXECUTE

Otherwise this is a great interaction. Madness is a good way of making people shifty early on, so they're great frames if the Boom goes off. It also means that you can end a post-explosion countdown prematurely, but with the increased Boomdandy speed, it's less relevant.

[frigid flower]

Fake breaking madness

[fringe mirage]

Pretty good. Boomandy already doesnt mind double claims and unlike something like Poisoner, a Cere being confirmed or ruled out doesnt really affect the last minute world building

Volume wise, they fit quite well

[weak ingot]

Very cool

sparknotes, cerenovus is loud and boom is silent so you do need volume considerations

but like the volume is fine and they compliment each other well

[stuck locust]

yes lol

[coral jungle]

[11/16] Clockmaker x

[green fiber]

amazing i love it

specifically because of the jinx

wait did they get rid of the jinx

[vale frigate]

Lol

[coral jungle]

They're still a jinx...

[green fiber]

i had a script based around that jinx where a droisoned clockmaker could get the number too early or too late

very fun

summoner is a bad role tho so unfortunately but at least it’s cool with this

[winter bobcat]

can someone send the jinx?

[coral jungle]

The Summoner registers as the demon to the clockmaker

[real heron]

Oh, the new jinx changes things, doesn’t it?

[winter bobcat]

what do they get in 1 minion games?

[real heron]

A shrug :p

I actually just don’t know lol

[green fiber]

no the old jinx

not this stupid dumb stupid one

[coral jungle]

For the record, I don't know many people who liked the old jinx where the clockmaker doesn't get info until after the Summoner made a demon

Something like it made an already very strong character even stronger

[still sedge]

Hi that would probably be my take even though I did not share that publicly

[coral jungle]

You know, now I'm starting to see the appeal

Fun bluff, totally believable, this is clever

[green fiber]

imo it makes it weaker

clock dying d1 or d2 gets no info

and it counters the overbearing strength of summoner imo

[still sedge]

yes and how will they die

[green fiber]

execution or other death mod

which commonly exists on summoner scripts

plus it’s a gnarly bluff

[still sedge]

like literally assassin/gossip

[green fiber]

godfather

[still sedge]

you're executing outsiders d1/2?

[green fiber]

i think the common denominator here is summoner is a bad character

[green fiber]

?

have you

played BMR

[still sedge]

125 games yes

[green fiber]

Or any godfather script

[still sedge]

I swear to god people don't kill the outsiders

[green fiber]

that’s wild

from my experience they do

often

[still sedge]

this is also

something I say in games

"Guys GF"

[green fiber]

sometimes even to “test godfather” which is idiotic

[still sedge]

and it's correct

[still sedge]

skill issue

that's what pacifist is for

[green fiber]

also with drunk or mutant or stuff on script often outsiders get executed without town realizing

[still sedge]

that is

different

[tawny haven]

the old jinx was absolutely way too strong but super fun and i'm salty that it's gone

[forest spindle]

Why yall dislike summoner?

[weak ingot]

no character is inherently bad its just that there‘s not enough support for some of them

except maybe lleech

not sure how one saves lleech

[wary solstice]

May I introduce you to the Minuit Engine?

[weak ingot]

oh hm