Character interaction thingy

[coral jungle]

The problem is it no longer hard confirms people because of the possibility of multiple barons means you can't trust extra outsider claims anymore

[tawny haven]

"Each night, choose a player: they can't die by execution today" is not a helpful town ability

[coral jungle]

If there were more than 2 extras, you used to be able to know one was evil

[tawny haven]

It gets in the way of eliminating Demon candidates

[coral jungle]

Beyond a shadow of a doubt

Now you can't

[real heron]

Yeah that’s true. much worse paci and it’s already an outsider :kek:

[tawny haven]

I've run an Alch-OG game now and it's really fun to mess with the actual OG's ability. Probably in the first tier

Haven't run the Spydowraith jinxes yet but I still think they're kinda stupid

I'm still salty about them taking away old Alch-Summoner so don't really have thoughts there

Poisoner is Poisoner

Like, sure I guess

[tulip sage]

alright

[tawny haven]

It's funny with Heretic

[tulip sage]

which old alch-summoner btw?

[tawny haven]

No setup effect, the Demon you summon doesn't turn evil

[coral jungle]

Oh that's really funny

[tawny haven]

So you can have good demon vs evil demon standoffs

[tulip sage]

ah, that one was funny

[coral jungle]

But not balanced at all

[tawny haven]

You still got bluffs, which I think is just not great

But you add "You don't learn bluffs" to the jinx and it would've been perfect imo

[viscid hazel]

I mean the new alch summoner is so much better

[tulip sage]

i love good demons so i liked that one

[coral jungle]

It's also not cool if you hit a minion

Very lame

[viscid hazel]

It actually makes for a game

[tulip sage]

new alch-summoner's objectively more balanced though so yeah

[coral jungle]

I love having two evil demons!

[tawny haven]

Well that's why the veto's there, right

Also so you can't just pick yourself

[coral jungle]

So now I have a BH ping on top of that good demon

[tawny haven]

you can veto on good players too!

if there's a confirmed virgin, probably don't turn them into a good demon

[tulip sage]

i suppose alch-pithag can do good demons too though that's not what they'll want to do 90% of the time

[coral jungle]

See Alc+PH for game holdup

[tawny haven]

There should be a little risk

[real heron]

Yeah I def agree about the alch/OG thing. Thing is the script I played it on was entirely busted unbalanced, but that specific part of it was fun

[tawny haven]

I dunno, old Alch-Summoner was really whimsical

[real heron]

Whimsicality is the superior state of being

[tawny haven]

There's a convo in #custom-script-discussion where Zets and I thought about good demons to script with it and it was fun

[coral jungle]

I'd play it. It's very whismy. But it's objectively very bad

[tawny haven]

the script wasn't good but it's whimsical!

[real heron]

I mean, Zets trying to make good demons work seems somewhat predictable lol

What’s the bootlegger?

[coral jungle]

Anyway, Alc+Vizier

Now even the good team can have a God Complex!

[tulip sage]

still a dictatorship, just a good dictatorship that make sit perfectly okay!!!

[tawny haven]

summoner/goon works™ instead of not working

also the normal poppygrower thing where evil learns each other if they die droisoned

Shab/Vigor/Zombuul each have really neat tradeoffs when summoned by an Alchemist: Shabaloth kills twice each night but can resurrect the old Demon if they don't get executed immediately after sniping them, Vigormortis kills once per night but poisons people if they hit a Minion, and the Zombuul has no drawbacks but doesn't kill often

[tulip sage]

i wish good demons existed more often

you've successfully indoctrinated me to the old alch-summoner agenda

[tulip sage]

is right now way too excessively early to post the 9/26 interaction or is it in line with the funny inconsistency of posts we've already had here

[steady granite]

I think it would be better to get it somewhat back on track

[tulip sage]

yippee

[tulip sage]

[9/26]

Investigator x Marionette

[hollow fulcrum]

very rough for evil

[winter bobcat]

Mandatory recluse i feel

[hollow fulcrum]

i feel like thats already a thing with invest?

[runic solstice]

Bad bad don't do it

Unless it's a teensy

You can maybe get away with it on a midsy but beyond that just don't

Misinfo notably doesn't help because if most marionette pings are false then you ignore them at a certain point

Plus no character is at a healthy balance point when it needs external misinfo in most games in order to not break things

Unfortunately, investigator is a really good token for the marionette to have. But it's not worth how polarizing a real investigator seeing marionette is

[late ingot]

I think you can build this, but it would take a lot of care to not make it swingy

You want reasons for the investigator to be wrong, reasons for the marionette in the ping to not be seated next to the demon, and ideally a way for the demon to escape

this is also weird across player counts -- "the demon is one of these four players or the investigator is giving bogus info" is a lot different at 8p vs 15p

I think this benefits a bit from alternate marionette setup as well?

[steady granite]

I think I agree with everything said so far yeah

One of the 7 reasons that strings pulling is an awful awful script

[tulip sage]

strings pulling is just TB + marionette, right?

[steady granite]

yes

there are other TB likes that have marionette that remove invest

which should go to show how bad this interaction is

most of them still keep stuff like virgin and washerwoman so idk

[misty hamlet]

I don’t mind the shadow puppets script but it does have inv

[steady granite]

idk what scri[pt that is

[misty hamlet]

TB but with lunatic, marionette, and magician

[fringe mirage]

This one is weird because it does largely suck. But since it’s only bad if you show the Invest, there are some semi reasonable ways to mitigate

You can just show the other Minion (s) in 2 or 3 Minion games. You may wanna consider an extra Minion on script so you never have to rack 1 Minion invest Mario

But as Hystrex said, seeing Mario in misinfo isn’t super healthy. You generally either ignore the pings or win easily by hurting the Demon & negating Mario’s social power

[steady granite]

ok this sounds like it has all the problems of strings pulling lol

[still sedge]

I would definitely argue alch ET is just a sidegrade of invest

[misty hamlet]

Absolutely, it’s also just really fun

[tawny haven]

it's kinda based with vortox and/or lm 🫣

like it's very unideal but there are fun things you can do with it

[still sedge]

Also the question remains

how do i make alch DA a "science" role

[tawny haven]

🤷🏾‍♀️

[still sedge]

help

How do I communicate info through choose again that isn't OP

[stuck locust]

just accept that alch da is shit

[still sedge]

NO

It's on a legion script I refuse

yes, that one

[coral jungle]

I mean, Extension Cord can do it. With No Dashii, Poisoner, PM, and Recluse. It's not the best interaction, but with enough script support it's fine.

[coral jungle]

btw you should still add Amne to that script

[still sedge]

I

am adding mayor

[coral jungle]

Well that works. Kinda

Then again, the problem is like just Pukka, which you want gone anyway

[still sedge]

again waiting for Minion+mod and adding DoN or alternatively smth else

because I cannot make that script work

[real heron]

Imo midsys usually play more similarly to full scripts than teensies. But yeah def no more than 9 players imo

[runic solstice]

YSK that the demon is 1 of 4 in a 7p game is a knight ping

Which is too strong but not unworkable

It's definitely a stretch but it's only a stretch

[real heron]

Fair but also knight is really strong on midsy player counts

[runic solstice]

Sure

[still sedge]

also it can be 1 of 3

[real heron]

Yeah

Invest seeing mario is at least as strong as the strongest knight (ie, invest seeing marionette gets better at larger player counts than 7 and knight is at its strongest at 7)

[late ingot]

oh that's a really useful way to look at it

[sudden drift]

In a 7-player game, from any particular good player's perspective, there are 6 * 5 = 30 possible (demon, minion) pairs. Different Townsfolk restrict that number by different amounts.

• Knight: 20 possible (demon, minion) pairs
• Chef 0: 20
• Steward: 20
• Noble: 18
• Empath 1 or Seamstress no: 16
• Artist: 15, if they split it in half
• Seamstress yes: 14
• Empath 0: 12
• Clockmaker or Chef 1: 10
• Investigator: 10
• Investigator seeing mario: 4
• Empath 2: 2

[vale frigate]

Ignoring droisoning, I assume

[real heron]

I think this is a useful metric if you were to assume that knowing the pair of evils was the important part of solving the game from the good team’s perspective (ie, alsaahir type things). The main shortfall this has about usefulness for actual games is the good team usually only cares where the demon is

[vale frigate]

I'd say solving minions is important assuming evil is bluffing well

Otherwise fake info leads you astray

[sudden drift]

I agree that "YSK that 1 of 2 players is a particular demon" is way stronger than Investigator in a way this doesn't capture. IDK how to capture that effect. I do think that, in a good real game, different Townsfolks' info mixes together in a way that makes solving for the minion and demon both important.

[winter bobcat]

Also when there are minions with inherent losscons/safety nets/ other wincon warping (or like riot LM imp where its on the demon) it makes hunting down the entire evil team much more important

although i think its less about townsfolk info making it important, but rather info making it impossible exclusively, and the evil team making it important

like there are misinfo/mitigating factors on any given good script (or built into the characters themselves) that makes minion/demonfinders insufficient to carry a solve by themselves, mechanically

[kind berry]

So do we actually go with 2 interactions/day or not?

Last message is again more than 10h ago

[real heron]

No we’re doing one per day

[late ingot]

I think if we want more questions/day, I'd rather start a "character a day" thread in storytelling and talk about how to run specific characters once they're in the bag

[steady granite]

I would like to keep it to one per day

[fringe mirage]

i'd support you in this

[fringe mirage]

so like, would we still keep this thread & have 2 seperately running threads asking about interactions?

[late ingot]

yeah, I like 2 threads with somewhat different topics over one thread that gets overloaded

[weak ingot]

any%

[late ingot]

#1421170033115009144 -- seems like people yearn for additional spaces where botcu regulars can discuss storytelling and/or scriptbuilding in more depth

[weak ingot]

o oops

[late ingot]

lol no worries I feel you

[weak ingot]

oh having that in storytelling seperated from here is kinda eh

[tulip sage]

do we have any final comments about Investigator x Marionette?

[fringe mirage]

not great. maybe tolerable if you can show an Invest literaly other Minion. But you should avoid mostly

[late ingot]

Not the best -- I think it's worst at 9p, because higher player count games can show other minion types to the Investigator. I am a huge fan of alt-marionette, though, and would frequently use that to guarantee a marionette investigator if I'm running a script with both around

[edgy socket]

I'm contrarianing my way around to "it's not that bad"

Hell it works fine on Strings -- the raw nerve on Strings is that specifically Marionette's interactions with Virgin and Undertaker simultaneously are not very fun, but Undertaker alone and Investigator alone both work in that info landscape

[viscid hazel]

I feel like investigator seeing a recluse as marionette never works out though

in my experience with it

But I don't think we were running marionette as a soft -1 outsider which I think would make it work

[coral jungle]

It's fine. Not the best interaction but not a problem to write the script around.

[chilly cedar]

I don't like it

[coral jungle]

9/27 Scarlet Woman x Lil' Monsta Jinx: If there are five or more players alive and the person holding Lil' Monsta dies, the Scarlet Woman is given Lil' Monsta tonight.

[still sedge]

Painful

[coral jungle]

Guys please help I'm actually struggling to build a good LM script

[tulip sage]

probably put the jinx there too

[coral jungle]

Alright!

[still sedge]

It’s about as fun as alhad SW

Except now it’s on the entire good team with the baby

[coral jungle]

That is a horrible strategic play

Just downright terrible

Why would you ever do that?

[still sedge]

The baby is immortal and you never register as a demon

[coral jungle]

Not even a "So bad nobody expects it" its just bad

[jaunty tapir]

"you never register as a demon" is just a natural LM thing- demonfinders really struggle to find it

[tulip ivy]

It’s definitely viable

[coral jungle]

Since when did registering as the demon ever matter in LM

[tulip ivy]

Even then the SW has to hold it the night after that good player is executed

It’s not an awful strategy

It can work

[hollow fulcrum]

the baby isnt immortal? the sw has to hold it for the next night and day

[coral jungle]

The baby is going to be hopping around anyway.

[jaunty tapir]

I think it's fine tbh- it makes f3s much more common- something that very well could be a feelsbad for the good team, but I think it's really okay in the grand scheme of things

IMO it's one of those "too messy for a homescript but totally fine for a custom" interactions

[coral jungle]

I'm mostly trying to justfy this because I'm having trouble putting any other silent minion on script

I know is probably bad, but I can't see much else

But I don't see a world where you'd ever give a good player the baby. You just sink any chance of ever selling a different demon

[jaunty tapir]

yeah that still shouldn't happen in most circumstances imo

[still sedge]

It’s also lil monsta

(And you can bluff it)

but it’s pretty annoying to actually deal with

[hollow fulcrum]

not a great bluff though

[still sedge]

It’s not like good kills you

[hollow fulcrum]

wdym its not like good kills you you’re the fucking demon

[still sedge]

SW and you’re killing a good player

In which the baby is gonna move away anyway

[coral jungle]

No you kill the baby

Evil might not have a SW

And if you have a clue who the SW is you get them the next day

[hollow fulcrum]

if you execute the first player to claim it you’re ensuring that either they’re evil or it’s lm/sw and the lm has a fixed position for one night

[still sedge]

Also what is the wording of the jinx

[coral jungle]

You ALWAYS kill there

[still sedge]

because i’ve always had it move immediately

[hollow fulcrum]

if you never execute even the first player to claim it evil just does it even without a sw LMAO

[coral jungle]

Nope, the SW is forced to hold it the next day. No votes

[hollow fulcrum]

… that shouldn’t be happening for exactly this reason

[still sedge]

Alright

All the Sts that ran this did “it’s immediate”

[coral jungle]

They ran it wrong

[still sedge]

Probably

[hollow fulcrum]

the version i have on hand is

If there are 5 or more players alive and the player holding the Lil' Monsta token dies, the Scarlet Woman is given the Lil' Monsta token tonight.
which doesnt explicitly say that it doesn’t move but its heavily implied and by considering the interaction at all you figure out why that is

[still sedge]

Maybe my point is moot then

[coral jungle]

I don't blame you, I thought that too. Its written very poorly

[still sedge]

love how a really bad ST could make 2 lil monstas with this RAW

[sudden drift]

I thought / was unproblematic but somewhat cringe, since it's too easy to decide who holds the baby.

But the idea of giving to an important townsfolk to tempt good into executing them, is not cringe

[hollow fulcrum]

“RAW” is never an acronym to bring within spitting distance of a jinx interpretation

[late ingot]

I think this is fine

[coral jungle]

I personally don't like it from what I'm reading, but I'm not sure if I have a better 5th minion for my script, and LM really struggles with variety in 3 minion without a 5th minion.

To an extent in 2 minion as well

[late ingot]

Being able to hand the baby to a good player and out lil Monsta is very funny

[coral jungle]

Also, Scarlet does interact well with the other two on script demons

I think I'll keep it

[late ingot]

yeah if these two independently wind up on script that's ok

[coral jungle]

And, it opens up a BD bluff! So that's cool!

Looks like this if anyone's wondering

Still working out the kinks

[real heron]

It makes boomdandy good for Lil Monsta

:p

Having run this interaction myself with my group, I make it clear that the intention of the interaction is that LM is only babysat by evil players. They can then do whatever they like, but I’m yet to see the evil team actually let a good player babysit

I’ve seen a boomdandy holding the baby almost be exed cause there was a SW in play, but good correctly moved it away after realising it’s a boomdandy play

[steady granite]

Mreh

Unnecessary LM buff

[tawny haven]

This is just, like, fine

There's the thing where evil gives the baby to a good player but that outs the Demon type and a minion, and good can just kill the SW in the meantime

[chilly cedar]

9/28

Politician Balloonist

[jaunty tapir]

Def a good interaction imo, poli is one of the best outsiders for a balloonist to see since it's quiet and is one of the few ways to find a good-aligned liar. Polis claiming balloonist can completely direct world building if trusted as well, so it's a good claim

It's one of those interactions good both ways, whereas lots of interactions are just good one way

[stuck locust]

a bit unfortunate for the balloonist

Poli is an outsider that's often very devastating as a +1, and it distracts Balloonist from actual main team evils if seen

with the original balloonist though this interaction is 💋

[vast inlet]

This is where rarely doing balloonist +1 in base 2 is probably the most fair - balloonist as a way of getting around an existing politician is great, balloonist adding a poli is a little rough unless town is strong

[tawny haven]

Pretty fun! Balloonist with hidden Outsiders is great and this is a good example

[real heron]

Balloonist kinda wants hidden outsiders cause otherwise it can just feel like ‘oh that was obvious’ or ‘damn, these are a bunch of seamstress pings’

Also hidden outsiders are helpful for mitigating confirmation of balloonists (not that it’s as significant as the first)

[tulip sage]

[9/29]

Damsel x Shabaloth

[late ingot]

oooh

oh that's mean

[real heron]

Just don’t res the damsel lol

Cause losing the game cause you outed after dying and then realising that you were regurgitated and guessed is just not fun lol

Maybe if you make it clear that it’s a possibility before playing a script with the both of them, it becomes a more interesting thing and less painful, but still it’s kinda uncomfy imo

[late ingot]

The damsel becomes much more of a misinfo character on Shab scripts potentially, which is neat

a damsel that cannot simply die + out is a force of nature

[hollow fulcrum]

since it's the st's choice to rez the damsel here it's meaner than barber-damsel where they have no control. i think it's like barber-damsel where players just need to be informed it's a possibility and then it's fine, i don't think saying "i won't ever rez this character" works because shab rezzes need to strike such a careful balance in certain gamestates

[winter bobcat]

I mean prof doesn't rez outsiders so

like itd out shab anyway

[vale frigate]

(I think Shab is usually outed anyway)

[hollow fulcrum]

yeah, that's why shab rezzes need to strike a careful balance

rez the wrong player at the wrong time and evil might get sunk, don't rez at all and good will

if you're on a night where you really want to do a shab rez but the two last kills are, like, the damsel and another good player who if rezzed will probably crush evil, being unable to fairly rez the damsel because they didn't know shab was an option and outed once dead feels worse to me than if the players are aware that the interaction exists at the start of the game

Damsel Who Cannot Out is a dynamic that i think is interesting, but definitely not a thing everyone will enjoy

[fringe mirage]

well depending on how mean ST is, it can be only a 1 day delay

Specifically that like, if you out after the Shab could res you, then they'd have to reattack your corpse

[hollow fulcrum]

this is true

[fringe mirage]

the ST can still be mean to you, but its less imiment than after your first death

[hollow fulcrum]

damsel who cannot out for one more day is much more acceptable than damsel who just cant out (barber-damsel)

and i dont think i'd ever rez a damsel who the shab sank into once already dead?

[fringe mirage]

Arguably, the Shab does also have a very minor con in dealing with Damsel because it kills faster

So less time to sus the Damsel’ bad info and avoid accidently night killing them

[coral jungle]

Brutal if you Rez. Completely fine if you don't.

[hollow fulcrum]

i might do it on very specifically TPOT where there's also barber-damsel so the damsel will already need to stay in hiding after death, but even then i lean towards "hell no" unless something wild was happening in the game

because if the shab is sinking into the damsel there they probably think that player is the damsel

(tpot doesn't have good reasons for shab to sink and hide by design, it's meant to just chew through town and be a monster to deal with)

[late ingot]

chomgmp :)

[winter bobcat]

does engi ever make a shab there?

[hollow fulcrum]

pros: you know the demon can't move to an outed minion you might otherwise ignore (imp) or an outsider (fang gu)
cons: om nom nom

[late ingot]

ooh ok i have an interaction idea for tomorrow tho, reminded by above

[late ingot]

[9/30]

Engineer x Yaggababble

[steady granite]

boooooo

[runic solstice]

boooooooooooo

[hollow fulcrum]

its fine its a bluff and the babble is "i am the engineer who made a vizier" (theres no vizier in play)

[humble lantern]

Why’s it a boo? Like I think it’s an ok interaction at most

It’s not one I think is brilliant due to like social pressure now but not one I think is as bad I’m practise mostly because folks don’t actually catch on to phrases often

[steady granite]

players knowing for a fact that a yaggababble is in the game early tends to create unfun play patterns in my experience

also if a yag is made mid game you have to either skip a night of kills or come up with a phrase they said yesterday and i hate hate hate doing the latter

[humble lantern]

Yeah I think that’s the good mower on paper but I’m practise I feel like the yag can still get their phrase in a few times

[late ingot]

Ok I'm gonna defend this one a little: within groups where the Yag is at its best, I think this can be pretty neat. The no-death night confirms the Engineer but kicks the can down the road wrt evil kill power, and it's incentive for the engi to not spend n1

[winter bobcat]

I think these are much more context dependent than some other interactions we've had recently

Mostly bc engineer is engineer

But it would take extremely no brainer choices to possible make it not optimal to get rid of yags kill power

Like pithag /mez / FM / Vizier levels of unbalanced minions

Maybe scarlet or da over mez but my point still stands

[vast inlet]

Yag is soo fragile though ime, if town has decent info and has already narrowed down demon candidates, I'd rather have yag than a demon with mobility

Very script dependent though, daykill yag =/= glass cannon yag and would probably be treated very differently by an engineer

[coral jungle]

Or you could make the alternative like Po and Fang Gu, but still.

It takes a lot to make removing the Yag not optimal

[winter bobcat]

Although I'm also a little reticent considering the few if any STs I'd trust to run an engi/yag script

[vast inlet]

yeah that's fair lol

[coral jungle]

I'd argue that this is the most script dependent role and one of the most ST-dependent roles packed into one, and that's generally a really scary thought

I'd say at best, this is probably gets a C, and at worst its a solid F

[winter bobcat]

Ofc then the engi would make a pithag to try to broker a deal to become snarmer to steal the demonhood

[coral jungle]

You could make a Mez and get an even better shot at winning with a similar deal

[winter bobcat]

The pithag could later make a mez

It's an engineer script

What's an soi

[hollow fulcrum]

also the yag can get a babble they'd already said the prev day but that requires very heads up storytelling

[winter bobcat]

If there's an engi yagga you just gotta listen to your demon a little extra

[coral jungle]

F(Yag phrase)=F(Yag Phrase-1)+2(Yag Phrase)

[tulip sage]

[10/1]

Boffin x Recluse

[late ingot]

isn't it October 1st

[tulip sage]

oh fuck

i may be stupid

:3

[fringe mirage]

Fun trick. You can appear as a Minion to demon finders + you have the O-Mod bluffs & a reason to appear evil

Its not like, the center of a script. But its a solid combo that you can easily justify on a fair few Boffin scripts

I'd say its a good interaction

(oh you could also give the Recluse the Boffin power, but.... Yes But Dont)

[tulip sage]

maybe you can do it if it's alchemist boffin?

[late ingot]

it's fun giving the recluse some bullshit to deal with via the boffin

"congrats! you now have the saint ability!"

[coral jungle]

At first glance, recluse doesn't appear to be that good of a boffin ability, but don't underestimate it. Recluse is a fantastic defensive option for the demon, as this allows the demon to register as a minion. It can be used to dodge a slayer shot that would've otherwise ended the game, royally screw up FG info, and get that pesky FT off your tail. It's a pretty cool trick, even if it isn't the flashiest of boffin abilities. Giving the recluse a boffin ability, on the other hand, is somewhat more up in the air. A regular boffin can give the recluse a problem to deal with, if I'm the demon I'd usually rather keep my stealth and give the demon an ability. It is fun to make a budget Hermit, though. An Alc-Boffin, on the other hand, loves the recluse. There are precious few abilites an Alc-Boffin can give the demon that help town. Giving a townsfolk ability to the Recluse is effectively a NW ping but you get a townsfolk ability out of it as well. It's a nice touch, and I like it.

[fringe mirage]

I think there’s a gimmick script that encourages giving the Recluse the Alchemist ability through Boffin

Specifically Alchemist Vizier :)

[vale frigate]

i dont understand how boffin recluse can make the demon not register as the demon

sure, it says you might register as a minion

but i thought that was in addition to your actual character

[fringe mirage]

Well Spy doesn’t register as both good and evil simeltaneously right?

Something like Empath detects the number of evil neighbors. If spy registerd as both, it wouldn’t work

[vale frigate]

i guess

so does that mean you can show a librarian a 0 if recluse is the only outsider?

but legion works differently

it says you register as a minion too

implying that you still also register as a demon

[still sedge]

yes

[vale frigate]

so legion can't dodge slayer shots

[still sedge]

this has always been possible(same with invest and spy, but invest gets a no)

[still sedge]

no they can't

[coral jungle]

Reverse Quadjank.

[winter bobcat]

are we not doing triple interaction for 1st of the month?

[hollow fulcrum]

we should!

i still think we should do then more frequently than that

[magic ferry]

I do love anything that makes "We shouldn't execute this person they're probably just a minion" less viable

[still sedge]

Le imp

The spooky scary imp

[still sedge]

Le barber

Le pithag

Uh

BMR is bad at this, minions should die at night

[coral jungle]

Le pretending to be a minion

[still sedge]

Le gobbos

[fringe mirage]

10/2: Kazali x Moonchild

[coral jungle]

I think this sums up this interaction

[steady granite]

Clockwork Cyborg reference

[coral jungle]

Not the centerpiece of the script, but it's there.

[fringe mirage]

i'd be lying if i said that wasn't why i chose it

[coral jungle]

If you want more details, see the ongoing debate on whether godfather works here.

https://discord.com/channels/569683781800296501/1271450696587149476

[steady granite]

Solo kazali allows moonchild to either be built as a tf or an outsider and i think that’s fun

However if it’s on script with other demons it doesn’t really do anything special

[past brook]

It’s really cool that moonchild can be used as a townsfolk without taking up an outsider slot

[coral jungle]

10/3 Puzzlemaster x Vortox

[still sedge]

cool and good

like sweetheart but it actually explains away vortox

[steady granite]

I don’t really see how they interact ngl

[still sedge]

Oh and it also means “if the person is sober it’s vortox or they’re evil”

[coral jungle]

I'm mostly worried about PM-drunk potentially being unfindable in Vortox

That's it, that's the interaction.

[late ingot]

A Puzzlemaster claim can throw doubt on whether a game is Vortox or not, which is cool!

[still sedge]

Considering it barely does anything in vortox that’s ok

[forest spindle]

Does false false equal true? Like you would learn the demon when guessing wrong

[hollow fulcrum]

no

false false is still false (iirc?) + vortox only affects townsfolk

[forest spindle]

Ah checks out

[chilly cedar]

On scripts like Pearly Gates, the Puzzledrunk can go on mechanically leaning characters

Think Farmer or Slayer

Others include Virgin, Monk and Preacher.

So "unsolvable Puzzledrunk" may not be as large an issue as you may think

False false also equals false

See: Savant

[tawny haven]

PM helps pry open a ton of worlds and helps Vortox teams sell non-Vortox

fire interaction

[humble lantern]

It’s like sweetheart Vortox - the knowledge of misinfo helps Vortox not be so obvious

[chilly cedar]

I think it's one of those interactions which I don't like in theory

But seem fine in practice

Vortox becomes much more interesting with Puzzlemaster

Evil team has an extra tool to cause confusion

Puzzlemaster helps smooth over vortox's obviousness misinformation

The Puzzlemaster though has a much harder time

The thing they solve for might have no mechanical effect (it often does if it hits a mechanical character but it might not)

In practice I think as long as the script doesn't just have Vortox, and there are some mechanical characters there

The Puzzlemaster can remain engaged

Puzzlemaster Vortox also has another thing that it's overshadowed

The more popular and publicised Drunk Vortox is also a goated interaction. It does what Puzzlemaster wants and a bit more imo

[real heron]

imo a puzzledrunk mechanical role is hard to balance anyway

[chilly cedar]

But Puzzlemaster Drunk isnt the best interaction

[chilly cedar]

What's your definition of mechanical

To be dairy

Fair

[real heron]

A role that can cause/save a player dying

[chilly cedar]

I am talking about a limited pool

Right

So we aren't talking about the same thing

Because of my imprecise definition

Characters like Tea Lady, Sailor, Gossip are all kinda loud

And all are mechanical

I agree they are risky Puzzledrunks

The characters I focused on are more likely to be on a vortox script

Farmers, Slayers, Alsaahirs, Preachers

They still have mechanical effects that Vortox doesn't impact but Puzzlemaster can

And I think they are less risky Puzzledrunks

[real heron]

Yeah I def agree with that sentiment

[chilly cedar]

Now I do think some of my own examples are a bit risky

There's loud and quiet mechanical characters

Like Monk

Monk is loud but it happens rarely

And a Monk that doesn't proc isn't exactly the most trustworthy person

So I think it's fine

Others can disagree

[real heron]

Monk failing a protection is quite loud from the monk’s perspective

[real heron]

I think these characters’ loudness depends on the script they’re in

[chilly cedar]

Ye

I think Preacher matters most

[frigid flower]

Hope next combo its Acrobat Courtier

[coral jungle]

Why don't you suggest it?

[fringe mirage]

10/4: Acrobat x Courtier

[fringe mirage]

(stealing thunder, but doing it for arepa)

At any rate, Acrobat is functional with Courtier. You do want BMR roles to go with Courtier. You need plenty of things to balance out Courtier success, but thats just part of the deal

[real heron]

I think courtier succeeding and then acro picking the courtier target can be rough on two levels, but with enough resources and bluff space for the evil team, it should be kinda fine (from a balance standpoint)

[weak ingot]

Acrobat is not from BMR but certainly does feel like it is

[runic solstice]

Fire

[forest spindle]

Love the interaction, gives courtier more options. They can drunk themselves or another good player, and see if the acro survives jumping to them at night for 3-way confirmation

Obviously needs evil to be able to poison and multi-kill to make it bluffable and balanced

[frigid flower]

You guys know any scrpt with this combo?

[tawny haven]

iirc Eldritch Horrors and their Lawyer has an acro and a courtier on it? but it has far more pressing issues

it's allegedly pretty fun (never played it)

[forest spindle]

I have it on my own script "Drink and Die"

[tulip sage]

[10/5]

Barber x Politician

[covert karma]

Kinda bad

You could houserule it ig tho

[late ingot]

lmao imagine being swapped out of being the Poli... I'd die

[deft stirrup]

Me as Poli when Barber claim dies and I suddenly become the Vortox:
(I was Pit-Hagged)

Well, Barber-Poli is bad interaction

It has similar energy to Barber-Philo-SC moment.

Well, thiz can be houseruled to work fine on script.

[coral jungle]

Ooh! The barbershop shuffle. Don't let this happen on script. It's cool with SC because it's really difficult to pull off, but this is too easy to do.

[fringe mirage]

New Poli probably isn’t playing for evil

Also… evil can just swap themselves instead. They don’t really gain from swapping a Poli out of Poli

[coral jungle]

Demon swaps themselves with Poli, outs evil team

[deft stirrup]

Barber Poli interaction is either:

• Don't swap Poli: no specific interaction
• Swap Poli with Good: 2 goods confirmed to each other
• Swap Poli with Evil: break the game, as new evil Poli can just out the Evil team and will certainly be the most responsible for their team losing.

[fringe mirage]

Oh… right. That’s the issue

I suppose you still have to know for sure who the Poli is. Otherwise, the Demon effectively loses without a Poli ability

But yeah, not great in that case

A less than neutral interaction then

[deft stirrup]

There's easy Bootlegger fix: "Evil players can't become Good via Politician ability"

[tawny haven]

You can make it faster if the Poli is dead when you swap

so they become the dead good demon and you the evil Politician who is definitely most responsible for your loss

[coral jungle]

Or if the Barber is exed

[tulip sage]

surprised there's no jinx, but then again summoner-goon isn't jinxed either

[coral jungle]

Though that runs the risk of the ST ruling that you aren't most responsible, the former Poli is when the inevitably stab themselves.

[tawny haven]

well it's just the barber/snakecharmer thing right

[coral jungle]

You can pull a similar trick on SnV

It's much harder to set up though

[tulip sage]

color me intrigued

what is it 😭

[tawny haven]

barber executed, swap the Snake Charmer with yourself (so you become the evil SC and them the good Demon), then pick them (so you become the good demon and them the evil SC) and selfkill

[tulip sage]

whaaaaaaaat

okay that's crazy

[coral jungle]

This is the cool version of the Barbershop shuffle

[deft stirrup]

Same thing works with Philosopher if SC is on script

[coral jungle]

There's a similarly cool variation with Cult Leader.

The Ogre variant is a bit more like the Politician variation

[green fiber]

demon can just insta win if they know who the politician is

[hollow fulcrum]

how?

[late ingot]

kill barber, swap self with poli

[hollow fulcrum]

ah

yeah i guess that would be “most responsible” lol

[late ingot]

yeah lmao

[hollow fulcrum]

MAYBE there’s an argument that the barber is more responsible? idk it feels weird to assign responsibility solely due to an ability and not a player’s actions

[viscid hazel]

I think it also kinda sucks for everyone if the poli swaps with a good player most of the time

[chilly cedar]

i think the demon is pretty squarely responsible

Them swapping is a choice they made

[forest spindle]

and them outing as poli, telling everyone to kill the new demon

[tulip sage]

what if an evil politician was houseruled to not win if they out the evil team, but still be able to turn good by being more subtle about it? that probably would still be a feels bad and just copying the Pit-Hag-Politician jinx would be better, but i just thought it might be interesting

[late ingot]

||the mole says hello||

[chilly cedar]

well

[tulip sage]

||exactly what i was thinking of there!||

[chilly cedar]

I think the worst case is the poli is dead, and the demon swaps with the dead politician

[tulip sage]

||maybe a little bit of fanzazz sprinkled in too, just a tad though||

[chilly cedar]

that's the 'insta win'

[stuck locust]

you can't define "more subtle about it"

[tulip sage]

ugh, true-

[coral jungle]

"They'll still win if they're more subtle about it" the next day "GUYS I JUST GOT BARBER SWAPPED INTO THE DEMON KILL ME KILL ME KILL ME!"

[chilly cedar]

"GUYS I'M THE SNAKE CHARMER AND [New Demon name here] IS THE ONLY LIVING MINION"

oh wait

that doesn't work

lmao

[spare hinge]

Is there any reason why poli doesn't just say "you become evil" instead of "you change alignment"? seems that'd resolve basically all the poli jinxes and also wouldn't really affect the poli since you're already discouraged from having evil politicians (by all the jinxes)

[steady granite]

it makes mez turned poli less funny

[spare hinge]

I guess, but that seems like a reasonable price to pay

like even if that interaction is funny, I wouldn't call it "fun" still?

[stuck locust]

there could be unreleased characters that interact well with evil poli

[spare hinge]

I mean I guess lmao

even though I think that's unlikely

[frigid flower]

Hope next combo is Lleech X Bounty Hunter!

[steady granite]

you could make that the combo if you want

[fringe mirage]

10/6: Bounty Hunter x Cerenovus

[tranquil shale]

basically harpy

its fun

[tawny haven]

I prefer BH with Harpy but both are great interactions

locking a BH so they can't share their pings is really brutal

[spice ferry]

Yes, but you also have to find the BH and cerelock them.

[hollow fulcrum]

except you lose out on choosing the direction

[stuck locust]

but you get the advantage of being able to choose the character

a Harpy can't guarantee that their target claims BH, in fact claiming BH when Harpy mad is often a bad move

[tawny haven]

claiming a BH ping is a pretty good way to make sure your target doesn't get Harpy-killed because you broke madness

[stuck locust]

the balance with Harpy madness is you want to successfully maintain madness but you don't want to be "too successful" such that your lies are misleading Town

BH tends to be too successful a lot of the time

[frigid flower]

Hope next combo is summoner X plague Doctor.

[real heron]

I have one in mind if I could do the next one

[coral jungle]

You know, instead of hoping, you are completely allowed to suggest on yourself!

[frigid flower]

I didnt know that!!

[coral jungle]

10/7 Godfather x Leviathan

[still sedge]

That’s it

(In all seriousness it’s just not a good minion in Levi)

(Murder is bad in Levi, no-one is getting executed anyway, and every other outsider mod is better)

[past brook]

Just use Baron or Xaan 😭 death mod in leviathan never works

[still sedge]

On the heretic point

Godfather is necessary(unjinxed) for heretic Levi

To

Work

[fringe mirage]

It works on exactly Rochambeau and nowhere else

Xaan and Sentinel exist, you have no excuse for this

[real heron]

Xaan, sentinel, and baron

[fringe mirage]

Tbf, I phrased it like that specifically because there was a point before Xaan existed where people were like "Well I dont want Baron here & I dont want Sentinel, so it has to be Godfather"

I said it thatway because Xaan throoughly removes that excuse

(tho i dont think gf levi was still common even in the pre-xaan era)

[viscid hazel]

bad unless you're making BMR + leviathan

[past brook]

“Unless” implies that BMR + leviathan is not bad

[humble lantern]

Tbh, I think y’all are making them seem like worst combo lol when it’s a combo that works really well in one way but no so much in another. Godfather’s outsider mod and knowing a bluff is amazing for Leviathan. Plus, whilst not advantageous, killing an a, most certainly none demon candidate isn’t end of the world for evil and adds this fear to town where they go “oh the outsiders are tied to the godfather… can we kill this player we think is evil but claiming outsider?”. I’d prefer another outside mod role whether Baron or Sentinel but idk there’s something in this interaction that I think makes it shine better than other killing roles with Leviathan like Assassin or Psychopath you sometimes seen

[viscid hazel]

idk it sounds pretty sick to me

[forest spindle]

Gf can work as O-mod and info role, as long as they just sink into the executed outsider

Might not be intuitive or better than other o-mods though

[tawny haven]

it's pretty sick

It's a fusion O-mod character and evil info character which can really work on some scripts

You just have to sink all your kills but you aren't getting very many anyway

[coral jungle]

My personal thoughts on this is this is a niche, but workable option for Leviathan. Namely that in a Leviathan game you learn the in play outsiders, which is good with hidden ones. Then, you sink all your kills, which usually isn't going to happen since you'll get one at the most anyway.

It's a good O-mod option for when Baron is too powerful, Xaan makes the game unsolvable, and Sentinel is just bad, which is a position I'm bumping into right now.

[real heron]

10/08: Kazali x Summoner

Jinx: The Summoner cannot create an in-play Demon. If the Summoner creates a not-in-play Demon, deaths tonight are arbitrary.

It’s been >10hrs since last message and that’s the current date for me

[tawny haven]

It's too optimal of a choice imo

[jaunty tapir]

yeah, I can't think of minions I'd pick over a summoner which is unfortunate because I think they both have similar really cool dynamics (choosing your ideal minions + positions and choosing your ideal demon)

[stuck locust]

also summoning a kazali is often a bad option

[fringe mirage]

Is there a jinx?

If so, that should probably be there too

[real heron]

Added it

[coral jungle]

I think this is good on exactly solo-Kazali

Actually, no it's not. Makes the Summoner sad

[past brook]

The one time I drew Kazali there was summoner on script but the ST gaslighted me into thinking I couldn’t pick it 💔

Therefore bad

[real heron]

Also solo kazali means that the summoner cannot make anything if they were kazali picked lol

[coral jungle]

Exactly why I thought it was good. Kazali never picks summoner. Then I remembered it also denies half of the summoner's ability.

[real heron]

A kazali would just… make a blank token?

[coral jungle]

Let me rephrase this:
The ideal script I'm thinking of has around 5-6 minions, one of which is Summoner. Kazali is the only demon. If you draw the Kazali token, you should not make a Summoner in place of a different minion, since Summoner will never be able to make a demon. This confines the script to two modes: minions pick demon and demon picks minions. The problem is half of the Summoner's ability, if it starts in play, involves picking a demon power they want. This can work on mono-demon, but Kazali's special demon power is over by the end of setup.

Now that I think about it though, choosing who the demon is and invalidating much of town's early info is a great trade-off for making a vanillademon. This might actually work as a script!

I think I know what the next script I'm building is.

[vast inlet]

I remember seeing a bootleg rule where a summoned kazali learns the minions and their characters (to mimic kazali's social benefit) - obviously not the default, but could be interesting because otherwise there's no reason to make a kazali

[winter bobcat]

Just make and kill a poppy

Ezpz

[humble lantern]

Isn’t the jinx changing though? 👀

[real heron]

That would be really interesting if so. I honestly don’t know what jinxes are changing or how they’re changing

[humble lantern]

I think it’s just removing the “Not in play” restriction so your solo Kazali script changes

(Idea at least)

[past brook]

I saw it bootlegged so that the summoner becomes the kazali and picks a minion

Which was something

[real heron]

Huh. Interesting

If we were to entertain bootleg additions to this interaction, I wouldn’t mind something like the summoner creating a sort of BSN situation, since the ‘arbitrary deaths’ means neither demon has to die

[fringe mirage]

10/9: Villiage Idiot x Pukka

[coral jungle]

This is certainly an interaction that exists.

It doesn't do much, but it exists

[tulip ivy]

It’s kinda funny

[fringe mirage]

Mainly a source of less arbitrary evil droison for VI

[chilly cedar]

It's good

[frigid flower]

Its normal

[chilly cedar]

I wouldn't call it normal

Droison plus Village Idiots are hard to script for!

Stuff like poisoner makes them very hard to solve

No Dashii can land in awkward spaces

Xaan is nice. As is Widow IMO

Vigor can work

But yeah if you want demons that poison and you have village Idiots

Pukka is a good choice

[coral jungle]

So, I just had an idea for an interesting interaction to ponder.

10/10 Beggar / Ferryman

[frigid flower]

Village idiot at home:

[real heron]

I mean, beggar is already quite strong (outside the context of TB) so I'm not sure why buffing it makes much sense

I can see that being interesting with Organ Grinder with a bootlegger to make it so that the beggar votes are only changed at the end of the day (ie, how Organ Grinder works)

[forest spindle]

10/11 Preacher X Cerenovus

[frigid flower]

Very intencional im gonna cerelock myself and pretend im ceremad

[real heron]

I think preacher can be kinda messy cause if it preaches a loud minion at the time of another minion candidate being executed or so, then distinguishing them can be harder

But other than the general issues of preacher with loud minions, cerenovus is an almost perfect interaction for the preacher imo

[jaunty tapir]

I think it's really good even for a loud minion

It's not perfect as far as the preacher not having super actionable info, but I think it's a really interesting way to make evils bluff ceremadness after being preached

[tawny haven]

I kinda hate Preacher/Cerenovus tbh

in actuality it's, like, fine, but I prefer the Preacher with Minions that allow the Preacher to act on their info (Boomdandy, FM, Goblin, SW, etc)

I just don't think it's very fun to be either the Preacher or the preached Cerenovus with this interaction

@humble lantern preacher man, you have preacher thoughts that can probably wait until after GLC now that I think about it but this thread is cool and you should be in it

[hollow fulcrum]

preacher-goblin and preacher-boom are awesome

[winter bobcat]

i like it in a triple

preacher cere goblin is very interesting

given teh cere goblin jinx

makes the preacher more whackamole y

[chilly cedar]

I think it's fine

But the angle of evil bluffing cere-mad to hide a preached cerenovous is actually kinda cool

It does give the preacher some info

[winter bobcat]

it does give you some level of evil pings after preaching

[wild bridge]

** 10/12 Pit Hag X Saint **

[sudden drift]

Fun outsider to turn people into, and to bluff being turned into.

[green fiber]

yeah pretty solid interaction

the PH can also make themselves a saint if they want to play on hard mode

[tawny haven]

it's neat ig

[deft stirrup]

It's pretty good

[forest spindle]

10/13: Village Idiot X Drunk

[frigid flower]

Its funny when you show village idiot as a bluff and they double claim the only "village idiot"

[late ingot]

I think these often work well on the same scripts, but doing the funny thing of making VIs capital-D drunk is kinda rude

[jaunty tapir]

in general I like it when VI mostly self-regulates its droison with maybe max 2 other sources of misinfo but I think that drunk works still

[tawny haven]

It's, like, fine

I don't have any particularly strong feelings about it

[frigid flower]

Only VI in town?

[rose oriole]

This is illegal

[frigid flower]

Nooooooo

Didnt know drunks character counts as in play

[forest spindle]

too late youre going to clocktower jail!!!

[winter bobcat]

What if vortox is in the mix?

[jaunty tapir]

I don't think drunk is loadbearing enough to fix VI + vortox but that's just another character interaction entirely

[rose oriole]

it's an in play "token" for demon bluffs, which is different from being in play for stuff like Pit-Hag

[frigid flower]

Okey

[real heron]

I kinda don’t want to wait for this, so I’m kinda just going to send my suggestion (it is currently the 14th for me so it’s fine)

Marionette x Preacher

If it’s already been done, I’m happy to do another

[edgy socket]

Used to be super cool

Is now not

[real heron]

What happened?

[edgy socket]

The new almanac clarification for Marionette (which will hopefully be reversed at some point) makes it unpreachable

[steady kernel]

I didn’t have any strong feelings about it before tbh. Though it wasn’t an interaction I thought should be removed or anything

[real heron]

Why ;-;

[winter bobcat]

so a trusted preacher can't unmario someone i guess

[fringe mirage]

Wdym?

What does it look like?

[tulip ivy]

Seemingly nothing

Marionette doesn’t learn it happened

[real heron]

Yeah, cause learning that they’re preached undoes the fact that they think they’re a good player (which is kinda the point of preacher imo)

[frigid flower]

If that happends its a feels bad only for the storyteller, i dont care about the marionette having proof they are evil

In fact i like that because it can trigger the mathmatician when they werent jinxed.

[rose oriole]

Uh, but the Marionette after being preached has no ability so they can learn they were preached, no?

[wide portal]

not with the most recent update

[frigid flower]

Hope they change it back, i like it when characters that think they are something at some point realize they are not

[runic solstice]

"you think" now suppresses the ping but it doesn't make sense to keep waking them so like ???

A jinx would be nice given the new almanac

[rose oriole]

But I thought the Marionette lost the You Think ability when they got preached, hence they are now eligible to learn that the Preacher chose them

[edgy socket]

They did, but the recent update explicitly calls out Preacher as an example of something the Marionette doesn't respond to

[rose oriole]

...

[edgy socket]

Which sucks because this was like Preacher's one interesting interaction in the entire game

[rose oriole]

where

[summer adder]

https://bloodontheclocktower.com/news/notes-from-the-clocktower-jinx-updates

scroll down to deleted jinxes

[steel kestrel]

I think it makes sense to call that an oversight and just rule it the old way

my opinion is that TPI forgot that mario has literally no ability at that point

[graceful plume]

"You neighbor the demon"

[viscid hazel]

I don't think the old interaction was that good

It just kinda sucks to be the marionette in that spot

[frigid flower]

It could have been worse, imagine if they turned good with the preacher

[wide portal]

it's consistent with Edd's statements in the past that they don't intend for "you think" characters to explicitly learn those characters, where they technically should if a player is dead and becomes a Drunk/Marionette/Lunatic, even though they don't have an ability (despite many opinions to the contrary)

it's not consistent with the game rules, but it's seemingly consistent with how TPI seems to want these kinds of things to behave

[winter bobcat]

[10/15] Minstrel x Marionette

[late ingot]

minstrel doesn't go on scripts!!!!!

it definitely doesn't go on the same sorts of scripts that marionette goes on!

[edgy socket]

Really funny

Good? No

But funny

[late ingot]

yeah this does have that going for it

[frigid flower]

Very great harpy world food for the harpy

Another reason for selecting dead players in a badmoonrising type script with harpy

[tawny haven]

I mean it's on scripts but it's kinda eh

it might just be on darkest before dawn which is 6 billion years old and thus not a real script since there weren't any characters released

A Marionette (Minstrel) is better than most other BMR Marionettes though

It can kind of owngoal late if you don't tell them because "I'm the last good player alive" means "I might have to kill my neighbor to win as a good player"

But you should tell your marionettes lategame anyway

[winter bobcat]

I mean I was also thinking of the interaction similar to Godfather/Fang Gu with Drunk.
like unexpected minstrel nights

[vale frigate]

Well, from good pov any minstrel night is unexpected

And from evil pov, this minstrel night would be expected

The only player who it will be uniquely unexpected for is the marionette themselves

[tulip sage]

[10/16]

Heretic x Leviathan

[tulip ivy]

Uh great if done right, awful if not

See every heretic interaction

[tulip sage]

the main thing i was thinking about with this one is the fact that the levi can't just self-kill like other demons

[steady granite]

problem is there is never a reason to not execute somebody claiming heretic if leviathan is in play

[tulip ivy]

Make good scripts and not bad ones I guess

Boomdandy

[summer adder]

inb4 nerdguy comes and says

[hollow fulcrum]

how do you do that with heretic-levi then

[tulip ivy]

Idk Boomdandy

Or nerdguy’s godfather

[hollow fulcrum]

boomdandy levi is weird because town can try to tie it, though i guess an evil can swap their votes at the last second to block it?

[winter bobcat]

[winter bobcat]

also etc

[fringe mirage]

Mainly dont like that good wins by default. It kinda takes away some of the push and pull of Heretic. It might work somewhere?

I'm more curious if it'd work well with Dark's Roi Faineant. Where the Demon wants to advocate for their own exeution if they solve, but evil still wins if good doesnt act

[real heron]

That is such a fascinating character

[fringe mirage]

I've honestly consdiered making a "showcase script for it. I've played exactly 1 game with it

[fringe mirage]

And in the game in question, we also had this cursed interaction

[fringe mirage]

Friendly reminder that this isnt just Mutant-ing the Outsiders. THis is every TF who breaks madness

I did actually get executed for breaking Folly madness that game as a TF

[fringe mirage]

But my point with RF specifically is that I like good still has toa ctively contribute to their win

They dont force evil to spend the entire game tricking good to kill the Demon & losing if they dont.

(MM does that for one day as a safety net & usually has more ambiguity)

[still sedge]

You don’t

[still sedge]

No it’s horrible

Do not try to make it work

[frigid flower]

Hermit

[vast inlet]

I won a game as Levi with a philo-heretic, would not recommend

[still sedge]

This doesn’t make it work

[real heron]

What if damsel? Surely that’ll fix the Levi/heretic issues cause the damsel totally doesn’t strip good of their agency at all

Maybe I just hate damsel on Levi scripts LOL

[tulip ivy]

God wait until you see every Levi script

[frigid flower]

Leviaxaan doesnt have damsel

(the best leviathan script of all time)

[winter bobcat]

Does HHR have damsel?

[tulip ivy]

Damsel is more important to HHR than Leviathan

[winter bobcat]

oh wait, it did before hermit released, didn't it...

damn the hermit the hrog revolution really screwed up my memory of what pre hermit scripts looked like before hermit was added

smh

[frigid flower]

Never played HHR honestly only played leviaxaan and laizes un carnival

[winter bobcat]

wait was it hermit or heretic that replaced damsel on hhr?

I always get those two confused

Hey are fabled allowed in these?

(was specifically thinking of x for tomorrow but its interesting generally)

[boreal hornet]

I really don't think either?? The version on botcscripts certainly doesn't have either hermit or heretic

[winter bobcat]

oh god now this is making me wonder whether a monk / soldier can protect from a demon's doomsay?

assuming the neccessary alignment shenanigans were done (cough cough )

[winter bobcat]

(it was a bad joke becuase replacing damsel with either would absolutely wreck HHR as a viable script)

just ask @tulip ivy

[tulip ivy]

What

[boreal hornet]

I mean I've won as evil on hhr before ... it was because everyone got distracted playing chess but it happened

*non damsel evil won

[winter bobcat]

your response to this

[tulip ivy]

I’ve played HHR once and won as good

[tulip ivy]

Neither lol

To my knowledge it hasn’t changed in forever

Again damsel is the most important character on that script

[winter bobcat]

I was making a joke about heretic/hermit making massive waves of retroactive changes on established scripts

almost exclusively for the worst and replacing central characters to those scripts

[tulip ivy]

Oh I’ve like never seen this

Except my own script but that was an upgrade I think

[winter bobcat]

Oh, it didnt actually happen

to my knowledge

i was just doing a bit where it had

i thought that was clearer though, i guess not

[late ingot]

the most recent HHR change was empath -> shug iirc

[late vault]

Where do you get this kind of icons? / is there a web? Do you do them yourself?

[tulip ivy]

Dark draws them themselves

@limber lark you’re being appreciated

[late vault]

Wao

[limber lark]

omg hi

roi isnt drawn but folly is

ill draw a roi eventually

[hollow fulcrum]

i just realized why the reoccurring symbol in silksong looked so familiar… i’d already seen and appreciated it in Folly’s art

[steady granite]

I’ve ran HHR twice and it had a 50% good win rate which means it is perfectly balanced

[winter bobcat]

yes thanos

[green fiber]

law of large numbers < law of sunglasses emoji react

[runic solstice]

https://tenor.com/view/the-road-to-el-dorado-both-both-is-good-gif-8304204

[winter bobcat]

Hey between 2 games that was probably about 30 people

so it should be a large enough sample size to draw statistically significant conclusions from

[tulip sage]

[10/17]

Cannibal x Goon

[coral jungle]

Evil Canni is cool

[vale frigate]

Spivory is needed or what

Cuz that's 2 evils potential

[coral jungle]

Nope! Canni is poisoned by evil goon

[vale frigate]

Ohh

[real heron]

Yeah, it’s a rare situation where two different players have the potential to become evil due to different instances of an ability, but at most one of them can actually achieve that

(similar to ogre/cannibal)

[tawny haven]

-remindme 22h yoink the next one

[neon storm]

Set a reminder in 22 hours from now (<t:1760740701:f>)
View reminders with the reminders command

[frigid flower]

Very weird interaction but kinda funny

[frigid flower]

But both cant be evil at the same time so its balanced!

[real heron]

Yeah, I did say that

[still sedge]

I love shab

or evil barista

[frigid flower]

How long does evil canni last?

Forever? Or until they eat something else

[coral jungle]

Permanent

Unless they change back

[frigid flower]

How would they change back

[coral jungle]

No executions and then getting chosen

It's possible, but it's not likely

[neon storm]

Reminder for @tawny haven

Reminder from YAGPDB

yoink the next one

[winter bobcat]

[10/18] :axolator: Axolator (she/her) x Vatimortis :vati [-? to +? Outsiders]:

[tawny haven]

oh fuck you

[winter bobcat]

teehee

nah go ahead axo

[tawny haven]

🥳

[edgy socket]

ojo vigor is a solid script pairing yeah

[winter bobcat]

you mean Lycan Math?

[tawny haven]

[18/10]: Xaan / Vortox

[vast inlet]

Ooh interesting

[cinder shell]

based

[edgy socket]

It's fine, people complain about it but it's fine

[cinder shell]

hides vortox info and outsider mod

[vast inlet]

Xaan makes it harder to immediately solve for vortox, which is cool and useful

Maybe add a few mechanical roles to poison even in vortox games? But the outsider mod alone + script presence obscuring demon type makes it not bad even in vortox bags imo

[steady granite]

I like this one

[steady granite]

Why do people complain about it

[coral jungle]

Something something Xaan does nothing in Vortox

Just make it a Baron

[steady granite]

This is objectively false

[winter bobcat]

Xaan poisoning is overwritten by vortox falsity for info

which makes solving xaan night off info impossible

or misinfo as it were

and also it nerfs a decent part of xaans capacity for misinfo

[steady granite]

Yeah but a xaan night doesn’t actually cause any misinfo, so I think it’s fair for the xaan ability to be “Town has no idea how many outsiders are in play” in a vortox game

[winter bobcat]

the thing is you could solve that with a baron or sentinel just as well

or hell even a godfather

[hollow fulcrum]

hate jinx

[hollow fulcrum]

i think it’s probably usually fine but it doesn’t work on the specific script im bouncing around in my head therefore it’s dumb and bad

[chilly cedar]

It's ok

I think it works better in practice than it does in my head

Xaan makes Vortox more hidden

Vortox can try and sell true info Xaan games

There is a vague relationship between the two

But it is strange half the Xaan's ability doesn't work in Vortox

[winter bobcat]

I'd say a third tbh

it can still nerf mechanical roles

but that does make xaan night loud, so it'd have to be worth it

like say disable a functioning tea lady

[jaunty tapir]

yeah they work best when only 1 is in play, it's their ability to frame each other that's most valuable

[real heron]

Yeah but also Xaan worlds are usually discussed etc either way, so it’s kinda eh

[tawny haven]

hear me out - Xaan 0 in a Vortox game

[forest spindle]

A good reason to do xaan 0 which otherwise is rough on evil

[stuck locust]

I mean droison on vortox scripts is almost always needed

[rose oriole]

I have one btw

[real heron]

Go for it I reckon

[still sedge]

Go for it it’s midnight somewhere

[rose oriole]

2025-10-19 :: Leviathan & Recluse

[tawny haven]

don't do the dumb thing

but these are just characters tbh

[steady granite]

recluse is a safer bluff in levi games because you can’t just execute demon candidates however you want

it’s also a good grand

frame

which i guess makes it a bad bluff, but whatever

[winter bobcat]

Also levi doesn't let Recluse just die to get out of the frame

[vast inlet]

Recluse being mechanically indistinguishable from an evil player is a little rough since you can't just execute them if you think they're suspicious in Levi like you can in a normal game, but I don't think it's a bad interaction per se

[winter bobcat]

MROA!

(make recluse an outsider again)

[The Sister Movement of Make Mutant and Outsider Again and Make Pacifist a Townsfolk Again]

[vast inlet]

Even beyond socials, characters like fisherman, snake charmer, and even general/HP/savant can help with recluse now that I think about it, and minion finders have the potential to confirm it as non-demon, so it's not unsolvable, just more outsidery in a good way

[rose oriole]

Yeah I was thinking about how it's really hard to get info clearing the Recluse but if you execute them it's a good player executed, which is a way stiffer penalty than in a normal game.

[winter bobcat]

Have you considered not registering them as good to the leviathan?

[tulip sage]

[10/20]

Marionette x Fisherman

[edgy socket]

funi

[rose oriole]

They have an actual ability there

[late ingot]

this is a role that works well with the marionette

[runic solstice]

"you should trust your neighbors" ::3

[tawny haven]

telling the fisherman to marionette their other good neighbor in a legion game is funny

[runic solstice]

Nah as long as you don't give something that amounts to that it's actually a great marionette token

[kind berry]

That's empath 2.0

[runic solstice]

Fisherman in a marionette game is entirely fine, fisherman!marionette is stellar, marionette opens up some good advice space (not like a ton tho)

It can be tricky to fit both on a script though because marionette tends to like more info and fish tends to not but the Venn diagram definitely has a spot in the middle

[green fiber]

i once gave the mario fish “kill [poppygrower player]” and managed to get town to execute them

but yeah it can often be tough

especially on Dashii scripts

[winter bobcat]

I might be jumping the gun a little, but no one’s messaged here in a while 🤷‍♂️

[10/21]: Hermit x Drunk x Zealot

[vast inlet]

Hermit drunk is cool and fun if the script is balanced against it (though my suspicion is it's inherently unbalanced across different outsider counts without specifically baron). Hermit drunk zealot I don't think is either fun or interesting, since either all non-mechanically-proven townsfolk must vote, or you remove the zealot part from hermit

[tulip sage]

as the person who posted the previous one, i'm fine with this ^^

[vast inlet]

So either you take away from hermit, which defeats the purpose of hermit having all outsider abilities, or you remove town's control of executions, which is not fun

[tulip sage]

anyway, a triple interaction... breaking tradition i see, but it feels necessary for Hermit interactions so okay!
Hermit-Drunk-Zealot is really unfun though for the reasons safterix is saying 😭

[vast inlet]

Hermit zealot can also be cool, since it makes evil rise ups easy early on with up to two zealots, especially with fearmonger/boomdandy/mastermind making early executions matter

[late vault]

I think I can only come up with 2 ways of somehow making it work

• Add reasons on the script why a TF would be told they have the Zealot ability (Wizard. Yeah that's the only one I can think of. Again, Patters.)
• Make a ruling that if they didn't vote on every nomination while alive, they lose their dead vote , but only they know it.

[coral jungle]

This interaction is fire. As in my players have set my house on fire for running it.

[winter bobcat]

I was thinking of ruling it borrowing from legion. If the hermit didn’t vote, the vote might fail

[stuck locust]

it's kind of oppressive with any extra evils imo

[vast inlet]

That's fair

I don't have actual experience playing with it, but conceptually it seems like a good way to make zealot more outsidery than it is in a vacuum

[stuck locust]

it's doable I guess you just have to be careful especially in 7/10/13p

[vast inlet]

And yeah not bag-building those combos in 7/10/13 seems more reasonable to assume with hermit than with most characters, since hermit can and often should remove an outsider, especially if you're putting it in the bag in base 0

[winter bobcat]

Yeah technically there is a world where there should be 4 outsiders in the bag, and the only person to pull an outsider token is not one ()

/ / [-1] /

being a soft -1 here

[late ingot]

i know of a script with this that features the ferryman lol

[humble lantern]

woah woah woah 3 way interactions?! what is this

[coral jungle]

10/22: Alsaahir x Barber

[tulip ivy]

I don’t think I’ve ever thought about this interaction

to the point that I had to think about why you even asked this

it kinda fucks but idk if alsa needs another thing that fucks it over

[fringe mirage]

I suppose you can use a day off Alsa to try guessing if a Demon candidate swapped or not?

But like, it’s just kinda an interaction. Maybe a bit sad for Alsaahir but like, not remarkable

[coral jungle]

I'm running into a problem on a script I'm building where Alsaahir is really cool and Barber is the only reasonable escape hatch that works.

[steady granite]

I guess if evil is really on the backfoot they can swap into a combintaion that's already been guessed but I think in any game where this happens the evil team is gonna lose anyway

Alsaahir's main struggle point is having more demons or minions than it should

And barber doesn't really change that

[tulip ivy]

I think it’s fine but a little tough

[coral jungle]

The question I'm hitting is basically, is the script's speed able to compensate for the lack of an escape route if things go south for the demon?

And does this escape route work with Alsaahir?

[tulip ivy]

idk enough about the script and I don’t think this is the place for it, but there are generally alternatives if you want a safety net

Boomdandy/Goblin are fairly inoffensive with the right Townsfolk

[real heron]

Thing with that is, extra minions (either LM or Typhon) changes the type of guess, but those worlds get eliminated much faster than otherwise, so the only reason why they’re rough is that there are alternative combinations

[chilly cedar]

I think of all the ways the Demon moves this is the best

It doesn't have the Alsaahir guessing weird numbers of Minions or Demons

[real heron]

Yeah, def agreed

I still think that Alsaahir is usually not a very strong TF in the wrong settings (if anything, can feel like a blank token) and it kind of needs script building support to be valuable

[chilly cedar]

I do think Alsaahir and Slayer are similar. Slayer can deal with Demon movement, and is better with it, while Alsaahir can't really

[real heron]

Yeah, slayer/imp is a home script interaction and Alsaahir kinda hates imp imo

[chilly cedar]

Guessing an evil team you guessed already can feel a bit sucky

[real heron]

Xaan or widow is best droison suite for alsaahir imo

[chilly cedar]

I kinda disagree on xaan

I think drunk, Puzzlemaster, widow, lleech, no Dashii are the way to go

The Alsaahir doesn't feel the need to be guessing the same evil team over and over

[sudden drift]

lleech / alsaahir is interesting

[chilly cedar]

I think Xaan is about as bad as barber though (not very bad)

It is! I think I like lleech Alsaahir

We could even do an interaction thing with it because I know some people disagree with that take

[late ingot]

Lleech Alsaahir makes a weaker townsfolk stronger but a weaker demon weaker, I think?

[chilly cedar]

I think it doesn't make lleech that much weaker

[real heron]

Puzzlemaster/alsaahir is worse than xaan/alsaahir imo. Cause a puzzledrunk alsaahir feels kinda unnecessary and wonky. I want the alsaahir to actually feel like they have a valuable token (similar to drunk mayor, idc if those two things make me slightly meta-able)

[chilly cedar]

If the Alsaahir is causing issues, then the lleech can kill them

[late ingot]

mhm fair

[chilly cedar]

The lleech gets slightly more punished for being executed

But the alsaahir's job is far from easy even after that point

I think people disagree with it from the "lleech shouldn't really be punished if it's executed it should feel free to do what it likes" philosophy

I don't think it's like that in practice

[chilly cedar]

I can kinda see the issue that Puzzledrunk Alsaahir isn't the most informative of Puzzledrunk targets

[late ingot]

the lleech is usually punished if executed, right? since the final 3 becomes a 50/50

[chilly cedar]

I more was meaning that an Alsaahir doubling back on stuff that its already guessed might make it feel worse

At least if it's consistently poisoned, it can go "hmm, okay then!"

But with stuff like Xaan, poisoner, or to some extent barber, the Alsaahir might find it necessary to guess what it has already guessed

And I think as Alsaahir is a bit weak, scripts it's happiest on scripts where if the Alsaahir guesses something, it can go "okay, I'm certain" this won't be the evil team in final day, don't worry about it!

It's why I liked it so much on china shop

I still think it's cool on china shop

It's a bit strong against lord of Typhon, but I think that's because evil teams who aren't super experienced at lord of Typhon tend to be socially read

[coral jungle]

Isn't LOT one of the things that can screw the Al-Saahir over bad?

[chilly cedar]

But it is legit quite scary in 7-9p as the LoT slayer

No

Not really

Yes, it's unusual

The Alsaahir needs to guess an extra minion, and in line

The Alsaahir needs to decide before their guess if they're guessing Lord of Typhon worlds or not

But it's predictable

The pattern is far less chaotic than say an extra fang Gu or guessing an extra imp from a star pass

It actually is strong against lord of Typhon

[coral jungle]

Eehh, I guess it's my "extra minions" reaction to the similar but much worse Al-Saahir+LM interaction

[chilly cedar]

Yeah

Notice that for Alsaahir lil Monsta, the issue is that the Alsaahir may guess the exact evil team

But get the lil Monsta wrong

And then the next night the lil Monsta can move to the player the Alsaahir guessed as the demon

The Alsaahir has no guarantee their guesses actually rule out lil Monsta worlds

It's the demon mobility there that's the issue

Another common issue is that the worlds become too niche

Because the evil team keeps changing

[coral jungle]

The other thing that I thought about was LOT is almost always paired with SW and/or Spy, both of which are really bad for Al-Saahir. China Shop notably doesn't do this.

[chilly cedar]

Yup

Spy is ok with alsaahir

Scarlet isn't that great with it no

[coral jungle]

IDK why I said Spy, if it misregisters it harms the spy

But Scarlet ... yeah

[chilly cedar]

I think Alsaahir spy is a yes but dont

[coral jungle]

Btw, why did you remove Al-Saahir from China Shop?

[chilly cedar]

Vatimortis

In all seriousness

It was doing a tad bit too well against lord of Typhon. But I'm not too sold on that.

My main thing is the instinctual way it works in 7-9p

[coral jungle]

Shame. Vigor is such a great interaction with it.

[chilly cedar]

The Lord of Typhon's set up becomes very predictable with the alsaahir

[coral jungle]

Oh yeah, that's annoying. The Al-Saahir can quickly kill any sort of Typhon worlds that low.

[chilly cedar]

And it's possible for the Alsaahir to rule out every lord of Typhon world by guessing a demon with two minions next to it

Like in a 7 player game there are only 4 demon candidates, and thats if none of them die

[coral jungle]

Strange to have an interaction where the Al-Saahir is too good, as opposed to the normal Al-Saahell interactions

[chilly cedar]

It's still the honourary 14th Townsfolk on China Shop

Just like Ojo is the honourary 4th Demon

It's a shame because ye I think Alsaahir is the type of townsfolk that really works

[coral jungle]

What's the honorary 5th outsider?

[chilly cedar]

Hmm

Puzzlemaster

It's been there for a while

Now it's turned into the Drunk

Acrobat also is the honourary 15th Townsfolk

And Spy is the 6th Minion

Anyway

Barber Alsaahir is the best demon movement alsahiir combo you're gonna get

I don't think it's ideal

[coral jungle]

Oh, I should have mentioned this, but I'm just refining Double Time

Which was my Whirligrim submission.

[fervent basalt]

I personally liked alsaahir on china shop since it could possibly counter vigor-da and stuff

can see how it might be oppressive with typhon though

[real heron]

The reason why I don’t think xaan is that bad is that xaan 3 or more just shouldn’t be a thing (don’t make it baron+, baron is already busted). So guesses that happen when there’s more info to actually guide those guesses, the xaan is quite unlikely to affect it

[fringe mirage]

it hasnt been 10/22 yet

[frigid flower]

For me it is

[fringe mirage]

Oh is it?

Idk my time zones

[real heron]

Idc, if there’s a lil monsta on the same script as an alsaahir, my default ruling is that the babysitter doesn’t matter. Cause otherwise the alsaahir is crying every time

No it’s still 22nd in Australia, 23rd is not possible to exist anywhere rn

[fringe mirage]

you're right.

I think i misunderstood what Arepa was replying to

[real heron]

But you’re both wrong so lol

Wait, what is the commonly accepted ruling of lil monsta/alsaahir? Is it that the babysitter needs to be guessed as both the demon and a minion?

Or is it just that the babysitter only needs to be guessed as the demon?

[late ingot]

the babysitter must be guessed as the demon per #experimental-how-to-run

[real heron]

Meh lil monsta/alsaahir is just gross then lol

[forest spindle]

Alsahiir looks to simple to put on scripts from a first glance, but so many other characters screws it over 😭

[real heron]

Honestly I think with that home ruling, I’m considering adding it to one of my lil monsta scripts (it’s one of exactly two demons so I think it’s the most excusable situation for it)

[forest spindle]

Have we heard anything about the next QnA yet?

[tulip ivy]

lowkey no

I was thinking about this

we’re a little overdue

[wide portal]

I still wouldn't be surprised if there's one at some point around the next weekend because that's Vegas Clocktower Con

[tulip ivy]

Oh right that’s coming up

Oh that’s totally when it’ll be

[wide portal]

I feel like Ben usually would have announced it by now, but also I know he tends to be busy and sometimes forget lol

clearly there should be a Clocktower Con every 3 months

DC in April (no longer officially Clocktower Con since TPI kind of stole the name but alas), Sydney in July, Vegas in October...the Cruise is in Februrary, so off by one month

[whole hawk]

starpass summit erasure

wait i forgot how math works that doesnt quite do it

[tulip ivy]

Not bad

[fringe mirage]

10/23: Juggler x Damsel

[wild bridge]

This interaction tends to make Juggler weaker, but Damsel can always say "I don't feel comfortable being juggled," which incidentally is something that good players talking to a Juggler should generally be more willing to do. Granted, saying "I don't feel comfortable being Juggled" might make the Damsel-guess easier, but a lot of this depends on the script (the more reasons a good player could be bluffing, the safer a Damsel is, which is also true more broadly). The biggest concern with these two together is if the Juggler publicly announces results in a way that is opaque to the good team but clear to the evil team which good players are bluffing, giving the evil team a Guessing-Damsels For Dummies crash course. A Damsel can bluff Juggler reasonably well, and can bluff Juggler significantly more easily if making an "abnormal" Juggle (not 1 player per character) such as five players as a specific Demon type. The way that I tend to bluff as a good player is in a way that doesn't bring about misinformation, and playing the odds by "confirming" an unlikely scenario is not the case is, in my eyes, a clever way for a good player to bluff while most likely not adding to misinformation.

[vast inlet]

Damsel is a great nerf to Juggler imo, since Juggler kinda wants reasons for good players to lie to nerf its info a little. That being said, my group hates claiming to Jugglers and should do so more imo, so that's pretty group dependent

[fringe mirage]

It does also share some DNA with Mutant Juggler on SNV

Mutant cant willingly out, so its a good excuse for a juggle to fail. Of course, Damsel carries more risk since evil needs to find them. So it makes every part of juggler harder. Getting people to claim, doing the thing publicly, sharing the number you got, investigating juggles you got wrong

even the idea of evil bluffing it is scarier

Part of me asking was because I was curious how much Juggler makes Damsel's life harder trying to do its thing. I think it works depending on script, but still a curiosity

[vast inlet]

My one reference is Final Nail, which has all both Damsel and Mutant, along with Cere and Fang Gu, but Juggler still feels good in my (limited) experience with the script

I think a Juggler script with more reasons for good players to lie wants proportionally less misinfo, and a Juggler script with less reasons for good players to lie wants more misinfo

so maybe I wouldn't have the S&V demon suite on a Juggler + Damsel script, since Damsel is doing much of the same job

but I do think it's a good combo

[green fiber]

boffin juggler juggling 5 people as the damsel

surely isn’t suspicious

[real heron]

I feel like they try pull the social dynamics in opposite directions, in that a damsel wants people to be cagier to hide it, and a juggler wants people to be open on d1 to get accurate juggles

I’m not sure if that’s a good thing or a bad thing, since I haven’t really seen how those opposing forces interact, but it feels like a tricky spot to put your script into