Character interaction thingy

[runic solstice]

It's those last few bits that take this from a good interaction to a great interaction

[hollow fulcrum]

as a harpy barely-tolerator, this makes harpy not suck as much

[tulip crane]

personal experience was v funny

[sudden drift]

Harpy doesn't fit on almost any script, but only because we don't have enough characters like VI that can reasonably satisfy Harpy madness on day 1

[steady granite]

any character can satisfy harpy madness day 1 if you’re willing to lie enough

[runic solstice]

I think that's very much not the only reason

First of all leviathan

Also harpy is way up there in volume

[hollow fulcrum]

what does levi have to do with it

[late ingot]

The harpy-madness d1 characters are (off the top of my head) VI, Seamstress, Inv, Golem, Dreamer, Bounty Hunter, and Shug + Empath if the Harpy isn't skill-issued

I'm sure I'm missing a few

[jaunty tapir]

there are a lot of other softer ones that come to mind

[late ingot]

yup for sure

[jaunty tapir]

but yeah as far as like hard evil pings those are it

ig FT?

puzzlemaster if you're silly enough

[late ingot]

these are all gimmes

oh FT works

[jaunty tapir]

I feel like you can be creative and use a lot more roles as pseudo evil pings (or just lie and make up information from other sources, that makes it way easier to be mad), these are just the easiest ones/the ones which make the harpy the most linear (I'm not sure about powerful, but I think that too)

[late ingot]

yeah, the roles listed are the ones where an accusee can most easily cast doubt on the information as "just harpy mad"

[winter bobcat]

Noble, Steward in Vortox,

pixie/philo, you could also claim to be snake charmed day 1

and someone was your minion

you could also claim recluse and you saw a neighbor as your marionette

[stuck locust]

Harpy mad players don't have to make up info, there are loads of other ways to convince people someone is evil

You can use other people's info, or loads of social arguments

[chilly cedar]

Fortune Teller

Chambermaid

Fisherman

[late ingot]

oh that's a good one

o7

[chilly cedar]

Washerwoman/Librarian is there is a Spy on script

[winter bobcat]

You could also claim a d1 mechanical role and you're next to a dashii

[late ingot]

yeah but I'm not playing that script

[winter bobcat]

Coward

If you make someone harpy mad at the St do they have to claim atheist worlds?

[sudden drift]

you can also counterclaim your target

but at least in my group, it's hard to satisfy harpy madness using socials, especially on d1

[wild bridge]

Harpy-Mad claiming General: I learned that evil is winning, and X is a really good player, so X must be evil.

[runic solstice]

Harpy is exclusively a thrall in leviathan games

[hollow fulcrum]

yeah absolutely, i can't figure out how that's related to what you were replying to

[runic solstice]

Another reason that harpy doesn't fit on almost any script

[late ingot]

tbf I think there are a lot of characters that don't fit on leviathan scripts

[runic solstice]

This is true

[hollow fulcrum]

i love levi deathmod its cool and awesome and will definitely work this time

[late ingot]

theoretically, if Levi text also had "opg*cap:td", how often would it get used

[runic solstice]

Very often because people would think it's a good thing

At a high level? Maybe never

[late ingot]

tangential but you reminded me

[jaunty tapir]

I could see kills like n4 depending on script comp, by that point there's probably one player who is very unlikely to be the demon and just won't be executed regardless

assuming they're a repeatable info role

[late ingot]

yeah, my gut feeling is that a good script + good st shouldn't confirm an ongoing role to the point where killing them and clearing them as a demon is often advantageous

[jaunty tapir]

that's fair yeah

[edgy socket]

These things happen

anywayYou can almost always trust your own information - but can you believe what the confirmed good player is saying?

[late ingot]

or like, killing the knight-confirmed savant just becomes a game of "was this player actually the savant or just a minion with info that clears the demon"

but I suppose it depends on the info/misinfo suite as well

[winter bobcat]

[9/13]: Pixie x Vortox

[edgy socket]

Very based with Drunk/Marionette

[hollow fulcrum]

one of those janky interactions where a reminder token gets placed and is mechanically necessary but isnt really accurate to the gamestate

so not my favorite due to that

[weak ingot]

i put the reminder token upside down

[steady granite]

guys is it raw to move the pixie mad token based on who’s claiming the bluff

[runic solstice]

Yes but have you heard of breaking token integrity

[runic solstice]

No but see my previous message

I like this interaction

Pixie info is a good thing to vortox

[runic solstice]

These are cool with it but not at all necessary imo

[runic solstice]

If the script is written well then whatever ability the pixie gains will also be good with vortox

[past copper]

its actually incredibly based

[chilly cedar]

It's nice

Better than other YSK that do a similar thing

As in Washerwoman/Librarian are bad with vortox

It might be better than steward vortox too

So yeah it's a solid combo

Also opens up a nice bluff if an evil bluff isn't working out

Seamstress info doesn't make sense? Back into vortox pixie seamatress

[tawny haven]

It's based but also sometimes it can be fun if it doesn't exactly line up

[past copper]

oh he meant RAW 😭 bro i thought we just calling things raw and that was based af

[chilly cedar]

It's not RAW

[stuck locust]

no, you can't move the pixie mad token midgame

[past copper]

yeah but thats the thing its not RAW but it is raw

[steady granite]

LOL

i see the confusion now

[weak ingot]

rules as jams (raj)

[magic ferry]

yeah and then also

rules as raj (rar)

[weak ingot]

if you win via rules as raj

is it a winrar

[winter bobcat]

[9/14]: Farmer x Boffin

But if someone else has one feel free

just getting the convo started

[late ingot]

Farmer is a non-zero Boffin ability with a Scarlet, Zombuul, Fang gu, or Imp, but it still confirms a good player and doesn't really help the newly-dead demon protect anyone else on the evil team while doing so?

[fringe mirage]

It also might make killing your own Boffin to bluff Farmer mildly easier

But honestly, its more just a nuetral interaction. You dont really benefit from Boffin Farmer, but if you have other Boffin abilities, its fine

[steady granite]

of the bait roles i think farmer is the least helpful for boffin

[real heron]

That is assuming RK/boffin is not up against grimpeekers (tbf, Boffin is usually kinda ass if there are grimpeekers, just cause the boffin abilities that are genuinely useful is quite limited atp)

[winter bobcat]

mechanical roles end up being better, but like you can't have too many confirmers just because there's a boffin

[runic solstice]

I think this is a good alch boffin ability

If the script writer wasn't mean to the farmer then evil doesn't have a way to deal with the farmer other than framing them

So you can't starpass/etc without removing a demon candidate permanently, or working hard to frame something specific

[real heron]

I honestly didn’t consider that boffin/farmer would not just be meh for the evil team, but even be useful as an alch/boffin ability. But now I actually see it and it’s kinda interesting

[hollow fulcrum]

well, if the demon isnt claiming farmer then a good player suddenly catching a strawpass from seemingly no one is Wack

it’s an awesome bluff as evil if you really want to eat town’s time

[late ingot]

I think I'd only ever give the Farmer as an alch-boffin or to the Zombuul with some way to handle the farmer that got created

[fringe mirage]

9/15: Princess x Cerenovus

[green fiber]

if the cere can get the execution off and prevent a princess kill good for them

am i missing anything else?

cere picking for someone to be mad as a princess d1 is fine

[fringe mirage]

I was more curious about the details of what that might look like

I'm not so much thinking its bad as curious about what happens this way

Or even the Princess themselves having to be mad as something else & still somehow convince town to trust them

[late ingot]

Haven't considered it before but I think I like it for a few reasons

The first reason is just I love the Cerenovus with any claim that can waste a D1 execution (whether madness is adhered to or broken). Ceremaddening someone as the Clockmaker on SnV, in a group with properly strict madness, forces them to offer themselves up as potential Vortox food (edit: assuming that's the group meta, which it shouldn't be!!). Being ceremaddened as the Princess does the inverse of that and forces a player to either break, look really suspicious when the Demon kills, or get into a double claim and potentially waste the real Princess' ability.

My other line of thought is that Princess is at its best on many of the same scripts where the Cerenovus is at its most threatening. Preventing a single kill in a 15p Imp game is pretty weak, and wasting an execution D1/2 by breaking Ceremadness is also not a huge deal. Put an Al-Had or a Shab in the mix, though, and execution economy matters a hell of a lot more.

(The main setting where the Cere shines and the Princess doesn't, ime, is later in the game. This happens for obvious reasons.)

[winter bobcat]

I disagree with the Clockmaker Vortox food idea. If there is exactly one meta where you have to be "mad" in exactly one specific way you're 'supposed' to play a character, then your ST isn't running madness right imo

[cinder shell]

if a group goes "we need vortox food, any clockmakers here?"

it's not the storyteller's fault

[late ingot]

ceremaddening players as the clockmaker will continue until the player meta improves

[winter bobcat]

"I'm a clockmaker but I don't want to be vortox food" is a perfectly fine way to maintain madness

maybe throw in a "Im already a YSK, I don't want to only have one vote to play with" if you're really being pressed

but like....

[late ingot]

for sure! but being ceremaddened as clockmaker removes a lot of potential defenses if your group has the vortox food meta

but yeah, I get what you're driving at

[winter bobcat]

madness should be more about what you can't say than what you have to, imo

[late ingot]

oh, that's where I disagree

[winter bobcat]

I'm not saying you don't have to claim, but like being forced to adhere to a specific play pattern is not what madness is about

[winter bobcat]

but another thing, if you're on the block anyway without any sort of ping, might as well break and confirm cerenovus world anyway

which I mean not all storytellers will, but like you can certainly try

[late ingot]

for sure! you're still in a sucky situation, though

[cinder shell]

then the group asks why

and you get executed

[green fiber]

ceremadness isn’t a censor it makes you actively lie

[sudden drift]

if you're going to (sometimes) claim clockmaker D1 to satisfy ceremadness and protest against being executed, then you also need to (sometimes) do that while you're the real clockmaker

(in a group with the "execute a spent role D1" meta)

Wait what's the daily interaction again? Right, Princess/Cerenovus.

Cerenovus can be awkward with mechanical roles. Like, say player X nominates & executes a player D1, and the next night you make X Ceremad as Princess while the demon kills someone. Then the script needs either (1) a plausible reason for X to have been droisoned that night, or (2) a fiat ruling that X can/can't be executed tomorrow no matter what they say.

[kind berry]

Tbf the "execute all clockmakers" can easily be fixed with the "mad them all as clockmaker" counter-meta

[late ingot]

agreed that it's a bit awkward when it happens, but I'd argue that a skilled Cerenovus shouldn't be doing this if there are sufficiently few reasons a Princess could have failed

[coral jungle]

Here's an interesting idea: If the Princess noms the Cere-mad player who doesn't get on the block but gets executed to a madness break, does a princess night trigger?

[tawny haven]

Cerenovus/Mutant/Virgin: If the Princess nominates a player who is then executed for any reason, the Storyteller may treat this as satisfying the Princess's requirement to nominate & execute a player.
ST discretion

[spice ferry]

That makes sense.

[fringe mirage]

9/16: Courtier x Damsel

[still sedge]

It vibs

Needing to solve for courtier before a damsel guess is kind of cool

[real heron]

I like the idea of it for sure. I haven’t seen them on the same script much, but I’d imagine they work well together

[hollow fulcrum]

decent hhr choice when you don’t want to be boring and pick pit hag

[edgy socket]

honestly I've seen courtier damsel about twice as much as courtier pithag

I think "pithag is strictly optimal and everyone picks it" might just be axo brainwashing

[hollow fulcrum]

quite possibly

axo does a lot of brainwashing

[viscid hazel]

On HHR yes

[viscid hazel]

I think courtier basically doesn't work on most customs but this interaction is good

[late ingot]

I like this! I'm not sure I have much to say about it, though

[chilly cedar]

Nice combo

Not one that I would think of

Courtier is generally p difficult to fit on scripts though

[tawny haven]

17/9: Lycanthrope / Exorcist

[real heron]

Lycan with demon kill modification is cringe imo

[jaunty tapir]

I think it has some very interesting elements but I'm not a fan, the exorcist functionally has no ability while the lycan is around

[late ingot]

I just accidentally put it on a script oops

(and immediately removed it)

[steady granite]

yeah this is kinda eh

arguably bad

[late ingot]

yeah, I can't imagine a script where both the exorcist and lycan do ok in the bag when put in there alone, but also feel balanced when put in there together?

[hollow fulcrum]

yeah, I can't imagine a script where both the exorcist and lycan do ok in the bag when put in there alone, but also feel balanced when put in there together? fify

[late ingot]

so true!

[coral jungle]

This interaction is... not ideal

There's a few reasons for that. First of all, the possibility of the Exorcist hitting the demon but the Lycan killing someone rendering the info meaningless.

Second is the possibility of the Lycan hitting an evil (or Faux Paw), finally granting the demon a kill, and then getting exercised to add insult to injury.

Exorcist and Lycanthrope are two townsfolk that share very similar functions. Putting them both on script is somewhat redundant.

Overall, a solid D- interaction.

[frigid flower]

Zoombul killers ahh combo

[coral jungle]

18/9: Vortox x Ravenkeeper

[runic solstice]

Bad

Avoid

RK is basically a blank token at that point

If not blank then weak

[late ingot]

weak but can be workable on specific instances? Learning that someone is not their bluff/the evil they were being built as/the drunk is ok sometimes?

[chilly cedar]

Not terribly good

You can definitely trash ravenkeeper information. You can do the same with dreamer though

But Ravenkeeper works much harder for it

It is more tempting when the Storyteller doesn't trash ravenkeeper information and tries to build non-vortox worlds with it

(like learning someone as cere in a cere game can rule them out as cere v learning them as evil twin)

So with a certain brand of STing it's not too bad

But this is one of the worst bait characters to pair with vortox

Sage gets more info

Farmer, Soldier and Banshee are mechanically more interesting

[late ingot]

I don't think it's a "never put on a script together" if the script independently requires RK and Vortox, but they're antisynergistic for sure

[tulip ivy]

I think I have a possible idea for a Vortox Ravenkeeper script that could maybe make it work but it is unbelievably specific

And I have not tried it yet

So maybe but I dont think the interaction is particularly great

[green fiber]

just monk protect the ravenkeeper when they proc so they’re safe from vortox

smh

[runic solstice]

:sotrue:

[chilly cedar]

on my way to build a deathmod vortox script

[tulip ivy]

I saw 3 eyes reacts and started work on this

it’s no death mod solo vortox which is terrifying

I’d welcome a more death mod focused take on it though

[chilly cedar]

well there's the classic vortox goon idea

which has been around for a while

[hollow fulcrum]

i love solo vortox goon

[chilly cedar]

is there a well known script with that gimmick

I keep seeing people start on scripts like that

[tulip ivy]

@cinder shell has made a few

currently working with her on mine

it is solo vortox goon (storm caught)

and Poisoner taking a weird non traditional role because no other minion works

[chilly cedar]

hmm

[tulip ivy]

I’ll post it

[chilly cedar]

if i was to make a script like that

[hollow fulcrum]

i feel like sun made one?

[chilly cedar]

and it is just me

then I'd have a bootleg rule and just add summoner

oh summoner stormcaught goon works well

no doubt my idea isn't original then :P

but hey originality is appreciated but ultimately overrated

[winter bobcat]

no protection?

Then its either Goon or Sink if there's a no death night, right?

[hollow fulcrum]

even if the core isnt i’m sure you can still make something new and interesting

[chilly cedar]

oh of course

everyone has their own rules they stick by in scripts

I don't know if I'd be able to make Trouble Brewing from scratch if it didn't already exist

[tulip ivy]

there’s Monk and Summoner

https://discord.com/channels/569683781800296501/1418257020456272033

go look

[vale frigate]

I don't understand why there is no goon summoner jinx

It clearly needs one

[spice ferry]

It doesn't.

It doesn't break anything

[hollow fulcrum]

???? it instantly ends the game

[tulip ivy]

if minstrel and preacher get a summoner jinx then goon should too

[spice ferry]

but I'm of the beliefs, until jinxes are rewritten and categorized, that jinxes are only for combos that break a character or another.

[tulip ivy]

I am too but htis breaks summoner

[hollow fulcrum]

ending the game instantly breaks a character

[tulip ivy]

you can choose the demon but not this guy or you both lose

[spice ferry]

and this is where stormcaught comes in on your script

so I get why its there

[hollow fulcrum]

forcing a character to be stormcaught to make an interaction work means it’s not a good interaction

not every character combo can or should work

but this one is so trivially easy to fix

[viscid hazel]

if the goon turned evil and someone else became the demon that'd be an interesting script interaction

if that was the jinx

[vale frigate]

Why is goon jinxed with Kazali then

That also doesn't break anything

The Kazali just has less or no minions

[spice ferry]

Setup is different, in my opinion

[vale frigate]

Idk what to say

That's not how jinxes are made

Clearly

[spice ferry]

I'm not in the belief I'm right by the way

like.. I know its subjective

is what I mean

losing the game because a character made the wrong choice isn't breaking a character. that's just game.

[vale frigate]

Half the alchemist jinxes are unnecessary

Really all the alchemist jinxes are unnecessary

Pit Hag can make genuine evil minions anyways

[spice ferry]

and like I said.. I will be changing my stance on this once the new jinx categories comes out.

if it can be organized and categorized then go for it. I'll be so happy

[vale frigate]

All I'm saying is that jinxes have been made for interactions far less problematic and far more convoluted to solve than Goon Summoner

[spice ferry]

I agree

[hollow fulcrum]

i’m fairly certain this has been called out as a redundant vestigial jinx

[vale frigate]

Realistically, the summoner can't be expected to know who the goon is. And an outsider winning the game for good (and losing themselves) is just game breakingly bad

[vale frigate]

Really? Cuz goon just can't exist on Kazali scripts without it

[hollow fulcrum]

when they released typhon they said character abilities aren’t active during setup anymore

[vale frigate]

So the goon Kazali interaction would work the same without the jinx

[hollow fulcrum]

really excited to see the hit new townsfolk: “if the demon kills you, good wins”

i don’t even think this is a strawman, this is pretty much exactly what you’re arguing is okay except the character that makes good win on the spot is an outsider

[tulip sage]

and also turns evil the moment their ability procs

so it's unfun for the goon too

[vale frigate]

Technically, all jinxes are unnecessary.

There are no character comboes that break any characters

So by that logic there should be no jinxes

[chilly cedar]

That's not true

[vale frigate]

I see heretic and widow as emojis and yeah that doesn't break either of them

Evil probably just wins n2

But the game doesn't break

[chilly cedar]

The majority of these cases, yes, the game isn't very fun, but doesn't break

But stuff like Organ Grinder Butler puts a player in a position that if they vote without their master, they are explicitly breaking game rules

[vale frigate]

The only interaction I can think of that might break is clockmaker summoner. And if that wasn't jinxed I'd probably show clockmaker 0, similar to investigator with no minions

[chilly cedar]

That jinx is necessary

[vale frigate]

You just can't vote. Not broken

[chilly cedar]

touche

other things where it is pretty likely the game breaks is something like lleech heretic

It's not explicitly game-breaking, but IMO without that jinx it does something worse

Which is make the entire game meaningless

[vale frigate]

Yeah it would be a guaranteed evil win

But the rules won't break

So jinx is unnecessary

Strictly speaking

[chilly cedar]

That point verges on meaninglessness though

[vale frigate]

Yeah that's my point

You just wouldn't be able to put them on the same script without the jinx

So realistically the jinx is necessary

I'm refuting the point that jinxes should only be implementing for comboes that break the game

Cuz no combos actually break the game

[chilly cedar]

fair

[vale frigate]

A lot of combos result in interactions so bad that the characters can't exist together in a fair game

In those cases (of which goon summoner is one) jinxes are necessary

[coral jungle]

I can think of one other game-breaking interaction and it's Engineer+Legion. If they can start in play together Engineer is broken because it can't change anything in a Legion game.

[vale frigate]

I thought of that

[coral jungle]

Since Legion registers as every minion

[vale frigate]

But I think it works

[coral jungle]

And changing demons with Legion in play... how does that work?

Does every Legion become a demon?

Does one?

[vale frigate]

Isn't it that if Legion creates less of a character type than are really in play, only X of them change?

So assuming the engineer created one demon, one legion would change

[coral jungle]

Hmm, that sounds logical

[vale frigate]

lmao

[coral jungle]

I think it is actually just Clockmaker+Summoner now

[vale frigate]

Yeah

And I'd rule that as 0

[coral jungle]

Oh, and princess+Al-Had

[vale frigate]

Based on how similar characters are ran

[coral jungle]

That breaks

[vale frigate]

Wdym

How so

The al had doesn't kill

Easy

[coral jungle]

With no jinx, if all Al Had targets live, all die

But the al had can't kill

So it's a paradox

[vale frigate]

Ok wait

Al had inkeeper

What happens if players are protected by innkeeper or tea lady

And chosen by Al had

I thought they just can't die

[chilly cedar]

they don't die

[coral jungle]

Well that depends on order

[chilly cedar]

its 2 checks

Even if they choose die, they live

[hollow fulcrum]

the alhad attempt to kill them all, it fails

it’s not a paradox

no more than monk

[vale frigate]

Yeah no paradox

[chilly cedar]

If all of the alive choices live, they die

[coral jungle]

Ok, now I want to know why that jinx is there now

[chilly cedar]

But they'll still be protected

[coral jungle]

Because that's just stating the interaction

[vale frigate]

Isn't princess hard confirmed in Al had?

Wow

[coral jungle]

And we somehow still don't have one for Lil' Monsta+Goblin despite how dang much that interaction comes up.

[chilly cedar]

no

[coral jungle]

And that's why it's a tf on RtC

[chilly cedar]

Alhad can choose not to kill

[summer adder]

no, alhad has a may

[chilly cedar]

It's a may choose to kill

[vale frigate]

Oh true

If alhad chooses to kill the princess is confirmed

[coral jungle]

So either you risk hard confirming someone or you give town a princess day whether it was a bluff or not

I love Princess on RtC.

[hollow fulcrum]

because apparently it was confusing to people in playtests :/

[coral jungle]

And we still don't have a LM+Goblin clarifying jinx? Ridiculous

[late ingot]

"good wins ties" though!!one!

[hollow fulcrum]

i need to play rtc 😔

[coral jungle]

Or character abilities trump condition wins

[hollow fulcrum]

i haven’t played rtc, cc, or final nail and i really need to play all of them

[late ingot]

pencilling in "Biscuits and Amy try RtC" on my calendar

[coral jungle]

When?

[late ingot]

oh is there interest in a CiT scheduled app game or smth fr?

[coral jungle]

Ooh. Nevermind

I can't pay for the app

[late ingot]

I have an app subscription!

only one person needs it

[coral jungle]

I have genuinely never played CC yet

Actually now that I think about it, I don't have time to play live games for like a while

So nevermind

[edgy socket]

Conveniently CC is in longtext queue

[hollow fulcrum]

ok but that requires playing longtext and why would anyone choose to do that

[late ingot]

True

[coral jungle]

shudders never again... /hj

[fringe mirage]

9/19: Fearmonger x Lord of Typhon

(i reccomend you unspoil only after answering) ||I'm curious how the extra votes & limited ability to choose targets (outside Typhon line) affects how Fearmonger threatens people||

[late ingot]

I don't have a great sense for either of these characters. My gut feeling is that, because the Fearmonger locking a player is indistinguishable from dying, the FM is better than a lot of loud minions with Typhon. However, the FM often wants other loud minions on script, which makes finding out it's a Typhon game easier.

When in play, especially at lower player counts, good players probably won't self-nom as much, which helps the FM out.

[fringe mirage]

how so about being better than other loud Minions? Like that a Psycho continuing to use their ability makse the Typhon line look more suspicious?

Especially if a player 1 or 2 steps keeps being alive?

[late ingot]

If town suspects a Typhon game, an outed Psychopath pins down the demon location a lot more than a FM announcement does

And if no Fearmonger announcement is made after like N2, it's difficult to tell if/when the Fearmonger died and thus difficult to solve for the demon from that

[hollow fulcrum]

typhon allows fearmonger to exist on script with quiet minions that need to be confounded

a fearmonger announcement in a base 1 minion game doesnt confirm that no other minions are in play if typhon is on script

[coral jungle]

When it comes to hyper loud minions on Typhon scripts, Fearmonger is a pretty good choice. Aside from Typhon confounding the possible presence of other minions, the extra voting power makes Fearmonger a more significant threat. Of course, it's a gamble, and town is always on the hunt for that pesky Typhon line.

It's an interesting interaction, too bad it's probably a pain to scriptbuild since it really suffers from the fact that Typhon just likes other minions better.

[runic solstice]

It's fine, though it narrows worlds relatively sharply ("we know it's a fearmonger game and it's 1 minion so therefore we know that if anyone is poisoned then it's a Typhon game")

It's not a bad interaction by any means

It's just now you have to write a script with both Typhon and fearmonger

[runic solstice]

||Oh yeah that does affect things

Both characters desperately need the help||

[fringe mirage]

||For reference, that's also why I chose it for this question over Lil M. Lil M can do the confound + some Demon mobility, but it arguably doesnt have the same extra voting/narrative spreading power as Typhon. You do have to build non-Typhon, byut thats par for the course||

[chilly cedar]

I think its good

LoT also is an outsider mod demon so it helps

[tawny haven]

I think it's really cool

Because in theory evil has more ability to get the mongered person on the block, but they out the typhon line if they just vote together

So it's an intricate balance to actually use your extra vote

[edgy socket]

just fearmonger the person next clockwise of the line, ez

[chilly cedar]

It also can be quite potent

Because executing players across from you is better on LoT scripts

9/20 Cannibal x Spy

[steady granite]

Cannibal’s a fun spy bluff

Cannibal eating a spy doesn’t really do anything special since you show evils as their bluffs anyway

But that’s not the fun part of this interaction

Cannibal is really hard to bluff without boffin or a grimpeeker so Id say overall this is good

[viscid hazel]

the spy can register as good to the cannibal so that the cannibal gains any good ability

I like how you suggested showing a poisoned cannibal the grim though

or a fake grim

[chilly cedar]

I'd say be careful with it but reasonable storytelling can make it work

And scriptbuilding

Cannibal+Spy+Amne for example can give the cannibal some nefarious stuff rules as written

[steady granite]

I did not mean to do this

what I meant was “if a cannibal eats evil they gain the ability they’re bluffing, so spy misreg is less relevant”

also I guess for mechanical abilities it allows the cannibal to actually gain them

[viscid hazel]

oh

[chilly cedar]

I think it is relevant

Say a Spy is bluffing Slayer

The cannibal eats them

And the Storyteller gives the Cannibal the Sweetheart ability

That's something that can happen

Can it be problematic?

Potentially

[viscid hazel]

yes

you can do that

never seen it happen but it sounds fun

[chilly cedar]

Like because the Spy can change registrations, you could make the Cannibal make Fortune Teller choices (Spy registering as evil so drunk cannibal) but then have them have the Sweetheart ability during the day

[viscid hazel]

golem jumpscare

[chilly cedar]

Ye

[coral jungle]

This is fun, but there is something that hasn't been mentioned yet. The spy can register as good but NOT as a townsfolk or outsider when executed. The Cannibal then sees the grim. This is firmly in the "Yes, but don't" category of Spy interactions.

[tawny haven]

show a bh-turned cannibal the grim when the spy dies :)

There's the edgecase of Canni/Spy with Klutz/Moonchild (where the Cannibal has one of those abilities without knowing it) but just be a good ST and not a bad one

[chilly cedar]

I think there's a lot w this.

[spare hinge]

[9/21]

Witch x Princess

[coral jungle]

Uhh?

I guess this is robs the princess if the Witch gets lucky.

Thems the breaks.

[winter bobcat]

witch makes people hesitant to nom

So princess is more likely able to get the first execution

because they're one of few with a positive incentive to nom

so theyll be more aggressive about it

[fringe mirage]

If Witch gets the snipe, good for them

It’s not funadamentally more unjust than like, a Town Crier or a Flowergirl during before they get anything

[coral jungle]

Princess almost always gets the ability off anyway.

[late ingot]

these are fun thematically together, and a witch can help boost the kill count for evil. not a crazy synergy or anything but

[tawny haven]

I don't really see how these interact? It's not scriptbreaking or anything

[steady granite]

i think i agree with what wizard said

makes the princess more likely to get the first kill

[coral jungle]

It goes from a 95% chance of the ability going off to a 97% chance

[steady granite]

and if they get witch killed, oh well, at least it wasn’t an info role

[vast inlet]

Time zones don't seem to exist here, but can I do the next one whenever that is?

[fringe mirage]

im ok with it

[vast inlet]

[~9/22] (in some time zones at least)

Vigormortis x Preacher

[coral jungle]

Booooo!

Vigor just gets hard countered here. Not cool.

[tulip ivy]

Can you not just kill the preacher?

I think the interaction itself is meh but vigor and preacher both want very similar Minions, so it ends up working well

[coral jungle]

You can just kill the Preacher. The thing is is that Vigor's whole schtick is that you lock a minion ability in for the game. Preacher really throws that for a loop, and I'm not sure if you kill the preacher the minion ability comes back

[late ingot]

credit axo

[steady granite]

LOL

[coral jungle]

You can't even use the Vortox excuse this time!

[vast inlet]

My thoughts on this are that it could work? It's interesting from the preacher's side in terms of the dilemma of whether to choose dead or alive players - if you choose alive players and loud minion abilities stick around, it might be a vig game, and if you choose dead players and the abilities stop then it could also be a vig game - however, since most loud minions can sink, this isn't hard info, and choosing dead players in a non-vig game is useless. It can counter vig in a way that's not super fun from evil's perspective, so I get why people wouldn't like it, but that's my opinion on preacher as a character in general, so eh

[fringe mirage]

Definitely not one you'd really build around

It's fine at best and potentially worse, especially if its obvious when the Minion ability dissapears. Im nt a fan of this interaction

[runic solstice]

One time I pulled preacher on a vigor script and in my first conversation I was like "I'm going to make the Vigormortis cry by choosing whoever dies at night"

This conversation was with the Vigormortis

I made the Vigormortis (character not player) cry by choosing the player that died night 2

As far as I remember, good swept

Yeah no it's a bad interaction don't do it

[past brook]

I think quadjank is prolly a different situation but I will still do the reacts bc funny

[runic solstice]

Oh my bad I forgot this was a base script interaction

If it works on quadjank that means it'll work on other scripts too 🤩

[jaunty tapir]

can confirm, vizier works on other scripts... wait...

[edgy socket]

character not playerCan confirm, am the character and every time this happens I psychically detect it

[runic solstice]

Yeah no I was fully thinking of you when I said that

"it's not technically what I mean but I'm sure it applies so sure"

[cinder shell]

my perspective is that it's unfun

[steady granite]

I think preacher is already a relatively unfun character, vigor just makes it worse

[cinder shell]

true!!

[vast inlet]

preacher is fun in the abstract to me - I think it's possible to make drawing the preacher token fun, whether by pairing with goblin/boom/spy (to rule out worlds) or og/fm/cere/harpy (to pseudo-confirm the preacher), but making being a minion in a preacher game fun is something I have no clue how to even approach doing

vigor does worsen that aspect for the evil team for sure. It gives the preacher themself interesting decisions imo, so I want it to work, but I do get what y'all are saying

[steady granite]

drawing the preacher token is fun, but being on the recieving end of it is very unfun

[winter bobcat]

would it be better if there was some sort of sage ping?

for the minion

[edgy socket]

Preacher as originally considered had the Exorcist "learns who you are" clause but this makes it probably too easy to just kill the preacher (exo has things like "the demon can't kill that night")

[steady granite]

I mean it’s not like the demon can intentionally kill the preacher the night a minion is preached

[viscid hazel]

is the minion ability gone for good when they are preached after they are vigor killed

[vast inlet]

RAW probably yes, RAF probably no (or at least, that's my interpretation of it)

[steady granite]

I don’t think it would be RAW yes

“Minions keep their ability” suggests they would gain it back after being unpreached

At least to me

[vast inlet]

I searched the server to find an answer to that question, and "RAW yes" was just the first answer I found, so it could be wrong; I hope you're correct that no is RAW, bc losing it permanently goes against the point of vig and makes the interaction hurt even more than it needs to

[steady granite]

even if it’s RAW yes I do not care

[vast inlet]

yeah same

[edgy socket]

No

[steady granite]

Mr. Vigor himself has spoken /s

[humble lantern]

just give the Demon the Atheist ability with the boffimn ability simples!

But also yeah Vig x Preacher I think are interacting with different Minions

Vig long-term active presence Minions

Preacher short-term passive Minions

[stuck locust]

23/09

Fang Gu x Poisoner

[tulip ivy]

I see it all the time and I just don’t like it

Maybe I’m just whining because on S&V Fang Gu is almost balanced by the lack of misinformation

But like Fang Gu Poisoner just wins

[stuck locust]

yeah that's where I'm at

I dislike Fang Gu on most customs because it tends to destroy every other demon unless misinfo is on the demons like on S&V

[hollow fulcrum]

idk about just wins

[steady granite]

i think these are just two extremely powerful evil characters that when combined on scripts that don't have sufficiently powerful townsfolk can pretty easily dominate

[hollow fulcrum]

even if the info is meaningless they’re still one of three players who can be executed off vibes in the end

[hollow fulcrum]

they need different types of powerful townsfolk to not dominate though

[stuck locust]

it's very hard to use socials when the demon was good

[steady granite]

it's not that info is meaningless, it's that it will be pointing directly at people who aren't demons

and it's difficult for town to tell the difference

[tulip ivy]

I’m biased I don’t play for socials very much

[stuck locust]

Fang Gu is definitely a character which is defeated by info rather than socials

[hollow fulcrum]

i’m not saying a pois-fang gu game is fine because it can be solved off socials

i’m saying that the new fang gu is still a player in the game who town might turn on in the end for any number of reasons

it’s not a guaranteed win

just a likely one

[tulip ivy]

You’re right I should be careful with phrasing

I think fang Gu poisoner is oppressive to the point of being unfun for me

[hollow fulcrum]

that i’m much happier to agree with

[humble lantern]

Based with Wraith 😎

[coral jungle]

And Hermit-Zealot-Mutant

Though jokes aside, this is an evil team I don't want to be staring down the barrel of, thank you very much!

[fringe mirage]

The good team needs to be insanely stacked to beat this

[coral jungle]

The good team has a BMR-like town and the evil team has no deathmod roles! Balanced! (The evil team also does not have a DA)

[runic solstice]

I don't think a good team like this exists

Fang gu is balanced by ongoing info. Poisoner is balanced by sparse info. They clash directly

[fringe mirage]

does Night School by Enix have Poisoner? I dont think so?

I know it has Cere/Scarlet/PH but I cant remeber if it has Poisoner

[runic solstice]

Scarlet hag 😭

[coral jungle]

IDK, its not on BOTC scripts

Source: I checked

[fringe mirage]

Huh. It does

Poisoner/Hag/Scarlet/Fang Gu, all in one place

[coral jungle]

Oh dear

[runic solstice]

I haven't even looked at the good team yet and I refuse to believe that good has a winrate any better than 25%

And that's me really reaching

[coral jungle]

IIIII think I'll stick to Dreamscapes as my SnV-like

[runic solstice]

What about SnV

[coral jungle]

Also very cool, but sometimes you want to play Pies Baking more than TB, you know?

[spare hinge]

I don't

[runic solstice]

Yeah me neither

[spare hinge]

but it's okay if you enjoy PB more power to you

[coral jungle]

I don't

[spare hinge]

lmao

[fringe mirage]

i'd rather play TB

than PB

[coral jungle]

Its more like choosing what you want on pizza

Sometimes you want might want sausage instead of pepperoni

[runic solstice]

Then you're choosing between cheese pizza and cheese pizza with a little bit of sawdust on it

If you want sausage play bmr or something

Or, like, a good custom

[coral jungle]

Eh true, probably not the best example. But yeah, a good custom. Like, say Dreamscapes!

I truly do love TB, and PB is okay. Sometimes I get the itch to play something that's a little bit unbalanced. Sometimes I get the itch to play something that's not balanced at all. It really is a matter of how I'm feeling at any given point in time.

Mostly I get the itch to play any sort of clocktower at all. grumbles about packed schedule

[fringe mirage]

Apparently good won a Vigor game of it once. Just from what i could find by skimming for the script

but then that doesnt really address your point

(and i sadly dont have time to do a proper search 😭 )

[coral jungle]

Good did win a Vigor game on this script once BUT it was only because we-er-they bullied the Vigor into nomming so they could get a Mayor win.

[steady granite]

i ran this script 5 times and good won 4 of them

[runic solstice]

Were all the bags 1 minion vigor scarlet

[steady granite]

no they were 12 player games with various demons

[fringe mirage]

Huh apparently I have never run Night School?

[steady granite]

actually I forgot that one of the good wins was because I accidentally gave game solving fisherman advice on day 1, so make it 3 good wins out of 4

[fringe mirage]

"Execute (insert Demon player0/'

[steady granite]

It wasn't quite that bad, but it did point directly to most of the evil team lol

[still sedge]

BMR is a barbeque

SNV is a Toast.

[steady granite]

pies baking is complete ass imo

[fringe mirage]

Getting back to this interaction...

Do they at least work if they generally arent in play together but are on the same script?

(in the name of through reflection on how busted these are)

Maybe if you have like no hidden Outsiders

[hollow fulcrum]

i think the absolute minimum can’t be much lower than 33

[fringe mirage]

did you mean to say minimum? Or did you mean maximum to reinforce what Hystrex said here?

[hollow fulcrum]

no i meant minimum

[fringe mirage]

huh

So apparently good does win Night School then?

[hollow fulcrum]

good will accidentally execute the demon in f3 sometimes

[hollow fulcrum]

no i have no info on this script

[coral jungle]

Found the grim of that game! This is before I rebranded from ItsAgent45 to lemonlemonlimey.

[hollow fulcrum]

can’t remember seeing it before

[coral jungle]

This game

[steady granite]

flowchart loss

[stuck locust]

I don't like having characters that can't really be in play together

[coral jungle]

Well, they should've won that game tbf

But we kinda bullied them out of it.

[stuck locust]

every outsider is hidden in fang gu

[coral jungle]

Also the minions were the first two exes

[coral jungle]

[stuck locust]

I guess...

[tawny haven]

Shitty livevoice custom syndrome

also it's on irrational behaviour

but it's just too strong for an evil team

[hollow fulcrum]

fang gu and poisoner need drastically different infoscapes to function well + imo there generally shouldn’t be evil team compositions on scripts that just don’t work if you want a balanced game (vigor twin cough cough)

[stuck locust]

irrational behaviour is a very strange script now that I look at it

doesn't look great

very strange hermit

[fringe mirage]

cant wait to see the other shitty livevoice custom sndorme characters discussed here :)

[coral jungle]

What should we add?

[fringe mirage]

Hermit and/or Drunk, me thinks

[steady granite]

fang gu drunk is peak shitty livevoice

can we add godfather too

[fringe mirage]

Yea thats probably good

what else is shitty live voice?

[coral jungle]

Recluse

Its always on script

[steady granite]

we need to make sure that we have a serious minion volume issue

[coral jungle]

Cere is also always on script

[fringe mirage]

should this still be in character interaction thingy?

[stuck locust]

add Gossip for godfather to bluff

[steady granite]

oh probably not lol

[coral jungle]

Lets move it to https://discord.com/channels/569683781800296501/570050241022263317

[fringe mirage]

Let me know where else you bring this. I wanna see where this goes

[real heron]

Depends on what outsider base you’re playing with

Just give savant info that balances the game based on game state and who’s likely to win, problem solved /s

[runic solstice]

I think like at final 3

[fringe mirage]

"You just throw a dart at the Grimoire & blindly execute who it hits. 1 in 3 chance"

[runic solstice]

Sure but evil has control

[cinder shell]

I hate it, Fang Gu is balanced bc of the text "all players are sober and healthy (for the most part)"

Fang Gu-Poisoner is untenable

[winter bobcat]

it can be

you just need engineer

alch pithag

amne thats basically a wizard

artist cannibal pixie philo professor cycling

[late ingot]

😭

[winter bobcat]

with barista

oh and math ofc

[runic solstice]

The funny thing is this doesn't help

[steady granite]

unjinxed alch wraith

[coral jungle]

Off-script Atheist.

[tulip sage]

is it still fang gu poisoner or did the day end

[coral jungle]

Still FG+Poisoner

At least on my end

[tulip sage]

i have something in mind for when the day does end

[coral jungle]

@kind berry The ping you requested.

[kind berry]

That's not the same thing

(Context)

[tulip sage]

lol

[tulip sage]

[9/24]

Alchemist x Spy

Jinx: If the Alchemist has the Spy ability, they do not, and a Spy is in play. Each day, after the execution phase, the living Alchemist may publicly guess a living player as the Spy. If correct, the Demon must choose the Spy tonight.

[kind berry]

Jinx is weird, ig there isn't a better solution but i can't say more in a script building perspective

[late ingot]

The spy seeing an alchemist can be useful in some cases -- alchemists make very easy minion frames for obvious reasons, and being able to mess with some alch abilities is neat (baron, boffin, misregister to an alch godfather). I don't have much experience with the new jinx, but a lot of awkwardness here is just because the alchemist is a super awkward character

[runic solstice]

Them being in the same grim at the same time is good on average, the spy knowing the alch ability is nice. The jinx is weird but workable. Fitting spy on a script with 3 good alch minions is a nightmare

[late ingot]

Fitting spy on a script with 3 good alch minions is a nightmare

[tulip sage]

btw i'll allow discussion on the Alch-Widow and Alch-Wraith jinxes too since they're near identical

[late ingot]

I want to like these jinxes -- they make the alchemist a fun blend akin to an investigator and an alsaahir

but I have yet to think about scriptbuilding these jinxes

[runic solstice]

This is also true

[late ingot]

the other alchemist-friendly minions might do alright with wraith?

[winter bobcat]

Unfortunately the spy can technically misregister to the alchemist guess...

[deft stirrup]

I feel like it's one of "yes but don't" things

[winter bobcat]

While true, i did feel it was something worth acknowledging

[kind berry]

"Actually the jinx isn't real now"

[fringe mirage]

Spy Chemist jinx is kinda just a new character

A decently fun character & a sorta necesarry one, but very strange

I suppose if you need a 4th Alch compatabile Minion, Spy is there

[jaunty tapir]

I'd like to design a script around it because it feels really interesting (especially when scripted with smth like imp) but yeah it is a very distinct ability that you can't just necessarily tag on at the end imo

[real heron]

They can still guess though :p
Also what about a recluse misregistering to the jinx?

[kind berry]

I don't remember who used that argument and if it was for spy exactly or another one, but "let the evil team decide if they want to frame the recluse"

That's using recluse as a townsfolk

[tulip sage]

i don't think jinxes should be affected by anything like that imo

[tawny haven]

I don't like the jinx but like it exists

[frigid flower]

Recluse sometimes is a townfolk let them know who the exorcist is if they get exorcised

[kind berry]

Ok now i want an hybrid where the only homebrew role is recluse but townsfolk

[frigid flower]

There is a script that already does that

But i dont remenber the name nor anything about it other that the recluse confirms characters apparently

[fringe mirage]

9/25: Chambermaid x Yaggababble

[kind berry]

Isn't it early?

Ig we got no new messages in 10h

[hollow fulcrum]

chambermaid only really works when demons have weird waking patterns and this is a demon with a weird waking pattern

[fringe mirage]

It is, but it has been 20 hours since the last question

Probably shoulda waited a few more but I was also curious about this one

[runic solstice]

Yeah I mean this lol

[humble lantern]

A very fun interaction imo 😌 not many evil characters match a YSK role & very few if any can be the Demon. Pair with another unusual waking pattern demon and it’s beautiful

[tawny haven]

good, fun interaction! Chambermaid likes having demons with weird waking patterns on the script (Zombuul, LM, technically Vortox) and Yaggababble fits right in

[late ingot]

I like this! Add in another demon with a weird waking pattern alongside a few minions with differing wake patterns, and you're off to the races

I don't think a Yag/Zombuul script is easy to make work, but LM pairs quite nicely with Yag

[winter bobcat]

Summoner?

[late ingot]

oooh that's a fun idea

@ script wizards is there a yag/chambermaid/summoner/witch script out there already

[hollow fulcrum]

i think a grimm chorus has the first three?

[late ingot]

it's summoner/yag but not cm/witch

[late ingot]

still, i'm not sure I could make something that feels unique here

[hollow fulcrum]

thought it had cm mb

[tulip ivy]

I’d be shocked if there isn’t

does Babytalk have chambermaid?

https://discord.com/channels/569683781800296501/1313218372007231528 it does!

[late ingot]

babble and squeak does!

[late ingot]

wtf why did I even post this LMAO

I'm in a babble and squeak game

[winter bobcat]

[9/25]: Lycanthrope x Goon

[late ingot]

This works mostly, I think!

[steady granite]

faux paw picking the goon and turning them evil

can’t decide if I like that or not

[late ingot]

oh wait yeah nvm

I was thinking along the lines of "goon tempers Lycan a bit"

[fringe mirage]

(i'd complain about this being too early, but i was way too early. So i cant really object either)

[vast inlet]

just bootleg "faux paw applies to good interactions and doesn't apply to cringe interactions" :sotrue:

[fringe mirage]

tho having it happen twice in one day doesnt help

[vast inlet]

but yeah this seems cool from the lycan side, but the faux paw thing is jank in a way I don't think I love

[tulip ivy]

I think faux paw goon is kinda fine

Lycan wakes before almost every single good choosing role

[fringe mirage]

Just put the Faux Paw on characters that dont choose 😌

[tulip ivy]

And if anything goon helps you solve the faux paw

[vast inlet]

hm that's true ig

it's just a mechanical interaction that goes against both the purpose of the goon and the purpose of the lycanthrope faux paw, which feels ick to me inherently even if it's probably not the end of the world in practice

[hollow fulcrum]

in what way?

[fringe mirage]

Dont really see either

Goon disrupts whoever chooses them in return for being on their team

Lycan kills unless its disrupted

[late ingot]

oh I think safterix is referring to the Faux Paw flipping the Goon evil

Lycan choosing the Goon is totally fine

[hollow fulcrum]

i think faux paw flipping the goon is super cool honestly

[late ingot]

I could see a setting where it's cool, but I can just as easily envision a setting where it's a double feelsbad for the faux paw

the reward for consistently choosing the goon is either locking them good or getting sober info, locking them evil while getting yourself drunk is unfortunate

[vast inlet]

Lycan picking goon is a great interaction

[fringe mirage]

Ok yea. My misunderstanding

Faux paw turning the goon evil when they shouldn’t is feels bad

Goon being a good character who doesn’t die to Lycan is cool

Especially if the Goon is hiding

[vast inlet]

I think I'm just biased against weird mechanical interactions in general tbh. Goon is inherently a weird character to me since it's doing several things at once; it already drunks people choosing it as a ~price for keeping the goon good, so drunking the faux paw and turning the goon evil despite evil never choosing the goon feels bad to me - evil didn't have to do any work to get the goon to join them, and good didn't even get the reward for junking their ability

[mortal tusk]

If the lycan picks goon and is drunk, the faux pas goes away for a day

[late ingot]

wait that's super cool tech

[real heron]

I see the latter more cause the faux paw is much easier to frame, and when it inexplicably has false info, it’s even easier to do that. Which is messy and ick imo

[late ingot]

throw in a math and you're off to the races

[winter bobcat]

math FP can get icky

[tawny haven]

lycan goon slaps

[tulip sage]

i have something for 9/26

[cinder shell]

9/25: Alchemist x Wizard

[misty hamlet]

As in alchemist wizard? Or alchemist AND the wizard

[cinder shell]

both

[misty hamlet]

Also it’s 9/26 isn’t it

Nope

I’m dumb

Anyway

[misty hamlet]

The amount of productivity a proper alchemist wizard can give is beautiful

Even the more chaotic wishes can be effective as they work for good

[weak ingot]

shit happens but good this time

[misty hamlet]

Real

[weak ingot]

usually alchemist wizard wishes are are encouraged to be different from regular wizard wishes

this doesn't stop players from wishing the evil wish they've been saving up for anyway

[misty hamlet]

I’d argue alchemist wizard wishes can still be evil oriented, but at the same time

From experience there are some pretty nice alchemist wizard wishes I’ve seen that work

[weak ingot]

most of the good ones i've seen just become really good NWM

[misty hamlet]

Yeah same

Here’s a good example

“I wish that I choose an information character (different from last night) each night and use their ability immediately, even if it would happen during the day”
^ did a wish like this before

Getting night 1 knight pings and confirming yourself as the alc wizard by sending a n2 nwm ping is hilarious

We had the demon before I could VI check someone tho

[weak ingot]

as a storyteller i find that an absolute nightmare

[misty hamlet]

Oh absolutely but I love wishes so I’m fine with it

I’ve ran games where everyone wishes daily

I actually had a game where an alchemist wizard wished a third person into a revolutionary pair

[weak ingot]

i personally dislike alch wizard for the same reasons i dislike wizard and i imagine people who like wizard have that vortoxed

[misty hamlet]

They called themselves the “tribunal”

[misty hamlet]

I love wizard/alch wizard, what I don’t like is the game breaking aspect as it can be unfun for those who aren’t the wizard

[weak ingot]

the latter is exactly why i don't like wizard

[misty hamlet]

And that’s totally fair

[weak ingot]

and it's not fun for the wizard if you say "no" and it's an absolute nightmar if you say "yes"

[misty hamlet]

Yeah

That’s why I never use cards with wizards

[weak ingot]

alchemist wizard is kinda a nothing interaction

like what am i supposed to say here? that alchemist can fight wizard? it's alchemist

alchemist wizard is just wizard but blue

anything can happen with wizard and arguably it's a terrible interaction because it confirms a good player as wizard 99% of the time\

and "oh but wizard can bluff as alch wizard" is not a reason because i guarantee you most wizards would rather do anything else tbh

[misty hamlet]

Yeah

And even if you do bluff alch wizard

You’re still spent

And worth executing

But usually your wish is a rule so most STs won’t shut your wish down if you did

Did

Die

Unless it needs that kind of cost

[tawny haven]

req we already had lycan/goon for today

[sudden drift]

Spec & Spoilers would balance this wish with ||"granted, but you are drunk every other night."|| 🙂

Alch-Wizard is one of the few Alch roles I like. The self-confirmation problem is fixed on Dusk in the House of the Damned, where an evil Wizard can use a self-confirming wish and then hold Lil' Monsta or get starpassed to.

[tulip ivy]

I think wizard and goblin are the only alch abilities I love

Fearmonger is meh

Everything else is mediocre or worse

[weak ingot]

alch is a character of all time

[tulip ivy]

It’s a necessary character imo

Glad it exists

[weak ingot]

yup

[tulip ivy]

But man it’s not possible to work with rn

[tawny haven]

I don't love Alch-Goblin

[weak ingot]

i actually dislike alch goblin quite a bit

[tawny haven]

It can lean too hard into main character syndrome sometimes

where it's just "hey let me win the game by myself"

I've had games where it hasn't been problematic but it feels like it lends itself to that a bit more than usual

(mainly games where the alch-goblin gets killed early)

[weak ingot]

yeah

[deft stirrup]

True

[tulip ivy]

This is true and valid

[tawny haven]

Alch-Goblin with Heretic is awesome though

[tulip ivy]

I think it works in the environment I like it to and in that environment it’s incredible

[tawny haven]

because you aren't gunning for the win immediately

[tulip ivy]

But it’s definitely not something you can throw in everywhere

[tawny haven]

Alchemist just feels best with Heretic tbh

[hollow fulcrum]

i still haven’t been convinced on goblin-heretic being fun

[misty hamlet]

Ehhh there are some I can live with

Which is an underrated alchemist ability. It’s rough on the good team but finding an evil is big

Witch*

Also honestly alchemist evil twin is also good

[sudden drift]

Convince me to love Alch-Goblin with Heretic

Is the point that (1) you should never go for the win D1 and (2) Sentinel is on the script so I can balance you as the outsider you are?

[late ingot]

Alch wizard is an outsider in the same way that wizard is a thrall

(Once had an alch-wizard wish for a virgin, except they executed evil players who nominated them. There was a boomdandy in the game.)

[misty hamlet]

Alch wizard in a whalebuffet game wished that everyone had the psychopath ability

15 player game ended day 1 with an evil win

30 minute night one for nothing

[misty hamlet]

I had a similar Virgin wish, an alch wizard wished that half of the good players had the Virgin ability…. I was the pacifist who confirmed an undertaker who didn’t die

It was a beneficial wish at the cost of we wasted like 3 executions to virgins

[weak ingot]

Just no:
Whoever told you this was a good idea is lying to you:
Not good:
Wizard:
Never seen it but probably not good:
Main character syndrome:
Pithag:
Goodside killing should've stopped at Lyca:
Okay but honestly not all that fun:
The NWM that evil can bluff:
Probably too strong:

yeah sure why not:

this is my Alchlist and feel free to tackle me behind the counter and rip me to pieces

[misty hamlet]

Scarletwoman is hilarious.

Terrible, but hilarious

Nothing beats an exorcised alchemist scarletwoman-riot on riot day

[misty hamlet]

Boomdandy is fun imo, but only if you hold it until you have info, day 1 booms just suck

Goblin/vizier I agree but they can stilll be good

[weak ingot]

yeah i'd prsonally only put :boomdandy: on any alch script

[misty hamlet]

Alchemist psychopath is funny but bad, alchemist assassin is honestly okay

[misty hamlet]

Da is a little rough but also good

It’s like a tea lady

Me when my tea lady bluff works

[weak ingot]

Alch DA is not bad

it's like reformed evil

[misty hamlet]

No but it is a little rough

[weak ingot]

it is a bit confirmy tbf

[misty hamlet]

But there’s the argument for every alchemist

[weak ingot]

if you have like a steward or high priestess sent to the alch DA though

[misty hamlet]

“They could be the evil one”

[weak ingot]

it's pretty decent

[misty hamlet]

I would never let that type of confirmation happen off rip

A confirmed alchemist DA is INSANE

[hollow fulcrum]

that’s incredible

[misty hamlet]

I guess the drawback being the demon bluffing HP 🤣

[weak ingot]

i mean i send my hp's to evils

it's not really confirmation

[hollow fulcrum]

alch-boffin is peak on a good script and also quadjank

[tulip sage]

Wizard is a chaotic and fun role, Alchemist Wizard is also a chaotic and fun role, them being on different teams is the only difference :3

[deft stirrup]

Yeah, Alch-Boffin is pretty good

[weak ingot]

alch boffin is not good because it also means you put boffin alch on script

[hollow fulcrum]

make good st decisions and not bad ones

boffin alch is also fine?

[tulip sage]

though, now do we have two interactions for 9/25 or does this count as the 9/26 interaction?

[weak ingot]

three interactions!

1 quabillion interactions

[deft stirrup]

Ngl, I don't see issues with Boffin-Alch?
Well, beside some specific Minions

[hollow fulcrum]

it’s the same thing as just having the minion in play

its rough with a few minions

but generally fine

[coral jungle]

Boffin is a good idea in the right circumstances. It's hilarious giving the Imp the Soldier ability.

[tulip sage]

is the Alch-Marionette jinx that bad? i just thought it was mid, not that bad haha

[deft stirrup]

Oh, I forgot about new jinx

[coral jungle]

It's a bit of an opportunity cost

So it's meh

[weak ingot]

oh new jinx right

[deft stirrup]

It's kinda mid

[weak ingot]

eh new jinx is

[+Marionette]

so it's mid

it's arguably a bad ability

[coral jungle]

And the OG jinx makes Alc-OG actually really good

[weak ingot]

no i knew the jinx

[tulip sage]

good does know that the marionette is in play now, meaning that in a 1 minion game they don't have to worry about other shit

[coral jungle]

It's an incredibly fun game of chicken

[weak ingot]

i don't like playing coin flip with the OG

[coral jungle]

You're not playing coin flip, you're playing chess.

[tulip sage]

mindgames

makes me think of the 1v1 scenario between Veteran and Mafioso in town of salem lmao

except lower stakes

obv

[weak ingot]

the thing is it's not even all that helpful since you're just halving the amount of nights OG is in play

ig you have a choice to announce that an alch is in play or not

[coral jungle]

But it's really really fun

[weak ingot]

not really my kind of fun

if you like it that's grand though i personally don't really see the point

organ grander

[tulip sage]

btw, apparently Steven wanted to make jinxes for Alchemist Scarlet Woman, Boomdandy, and Mezepheles but couldn't come up with anything fun yet

[coral jungle]

Assassin is fine since you can deny them the kill, and Xaan is good because you can hit town with that sweet sweet Xaan 0. Other than that I agree with you.

[weak ingot]

boffin levels of jinxes

[coral jungle]

Boffin does work in the right situations.

[tulip sage]

Alchemist seems to be becoming "you either have a minion ability or have a counter to the minion ability"

maybe all those jinxes could be removed if that was the ability

[coral jungle]

And then there's OG which is kinda both.

[tulip sage]

true

[coral jungle]

That's too vague to remove the jinxes

[tulip sage]

also true, needs rewording

[sudden drift]

is only good with very few abilities. Like to stormcatch a useful townsfolk, or mayyybe

[coral jungle]

Imp with Soldier ability

[late ingot]

Klutz, Golem, Farmer, Soldier on a demon that can die at night

[tulip sage]

there's also shit like Poppy Grower

[hollow fulcrum]

mutant and then you give 2 outsider bluffs + mutant :3

[weak ingot]

that's the same as the alch being the poppygrower

[sudden drift]

Sure but why are we putting in the bag instead of...

[late ingot]

Amnesiac if you aren't a coward

[weak ingot]

ig you can give poppy as a bluff to screw em

[coral jungle]

You're putting both in the bag

[late ingot]

funny

[tulip sage]

what about Minstrel?

[coral jungle]

Pacifist

With both Boffin AND Alc+Boffin

[weak ingot]

now we're speaking my language

[save] [save] [save] [save] [recluse kill] [save] [save] [evil wins]

[coral jungle]

Every player on the board is confirmed

And regular Boffin finally gives you an excuse to run Outsider Pacifist

[weak ingot]

i wish people like

thought about how to pacifist save more

[coral jungle]

Consult the flowchart

[tulip sage]

i'm a pacifist flowchart truther, yeah

[weak ingot]

because everyone knows not to do stupid tea lady neighbour save

but people need to start killing good goons

need to start offing drunks

[coral jungle]

The flowchart recommends that

Embrace the flowchart

[weak ingot]

honestly i even just kill townsfolk who are hella off in their world

Pacifist benefits from reasons to kill and reasons to save

i like Recluse/Pacifist and maybe Lyca/Pacifist if lyca wasn't so weird

[coral jungle]

Hmm, not sure on that one. I'll kill frames though.

[tulip sage]

back to the subject at hand

Alchemist :3

[weak ingot]

alchemist pithag

[coral jungle]

Nein

[weak ingot]

i have conflicted opinions on alch pithag because there's probably a script that supports it well

[coral jungle]

Do not do this

Do not

[weak ingot]

but throwing it on haphazardly is like

[coral jungle]

Do not do not do not

[weak ingot]

disaster

[tulip sage]

there is the "When using this, the Storyteller may prompt you to choose differently." clause tbh

[coral jungle]

It turns into "no choose again" for the next 5 minutes to make it even remotely balanced

Just use a Cracklejack or something.

[tulip sage]

not every game's gonna have a trav

[sudden drift]

The problem with Alch-Pithag is turning townsfolk into new townsfolk

I bet there's a jinx that works

[coral jungle]

It's more removing demons and minions from the game

[weak ingot]

turning players into the same character type is an arbitrary choice instead?

and yeah removing evils suck

[coral jungle]

And besides, you basically need a real pit Hag or the Alc will make themselves a Pit Hag

Or someone else good into a minion

[deft stirrup]

Can't, Boffin needs to give an out of play ability

[coral jungle]

Oh

Nevermind

[deft stirrup]

Though Alch-Boffin-Pixie-PG :D

[sudden drift]

"You can only transform players into Outsiders. An evil player doesn't change, but learns what they would have become."
In the vein of making alch roles just entirely new roles

[coral jungle]

That's an outsider

[tulip sage]

i'm honestly kinda fine with that, though self-pithag is a huge problem

[weak ingot]

super nwm but bad

confirm yourself 2 more times!

[coral jungle]

A real PH can do that

[weak ingot]

yeah

it's but bad

[sudden drift]

no see you're uh turning the Saint into a Butler so you're helping town

ok yeah it's bad

[tulip sage]

any alchemist pit-hags ever turn people into demons?

[weak ingot]

yeah

good demons

[coral jungle]

Alc+Baron used to be good in specifically base 0 until Alc got updated which nerfed it into the ground

[weak ingot]

my opinion is that alchemist pithags should only create more minions so they have more alchemist friends

[tulip sage]

i don't feel like having both alch baron and real baron in the same game is a good idea

at least the alch baron knows the extra outsider claims are real, at least

though both barons being in play just cripples the town more than anything

[coral jungle]

Actually, it was good in all counts now that I think about it. But it's still not good.

Alc+SW is either an outsider or a Starpass detector, neither of which are good.

[tulip sage]

or it's a lifesaver in a heretic game :3

heretic makes everything balanced trust fr

[coral jungle]

Creative, but now the Alc knows it's a Heretic game

[tulip sage]

just do it sometimes when it's not a heretic game
...but then that brings us back to the original problem!

i think i did Alchemist Scarlet Woman on a previous day in this thread, most people said it's great in Heretic and Legion and rough elsewhere

also good demons are funny and i love it when they happen even though they're really unbalanced, i will die on that hill 🔥

[winter bobcat]

Skill issue. Just meta your ST

[coral jungle]

If there's one Alc interaction I really dislike, it's GF

[winter bobcat]

(i was wrong but pe9ple didnt vote on me anyway 🤷‍♂️ )

[tulip sage]

i see it more as a YSK townsfolk than anything involving killing

[coral jungle]

I don't care what flamingviper says, it's too powerful and it will always be too powerful.

[coral jungle]

That's why it's too powerful

[tulip sage]

just don't give an outsider as a demon bluff, that'll definitely solve it fr

[winter bobcat]

Bc unless there's vortox on script, it just kinda stops evil from bluffing outsiders

Unless they double claim

[coral jungle]

Even with a Vortox, it still gets correct info I think

Because it's a minion ability

[winter bobcat]

Alchemist wouldn't learn they're godfather though

[coral jungle]

And then they learn the in-play outsiders

[winter bobcat]

Just pretend they are the alch recluse and give em snitch roles

[coral jungle]

So they know it's Vortox too

[winter bobcat]

Allegedly

[tulip sage]

opinions on Alch Evil Twin?

[coral jungle]

Worse BH

[winter bobcat]

Bad

Just adds a losscon

[coral jungle]

It's really funny if you show them the demon though. Not good, but funny.

[tulip sage]

how about the Summoner jinx?

[coral jungle]

Umm, kinda useful I guess.

Great for invalidating a lot of early info.

But you get to be a budget engineer

So it's kinda good

[tulip sage]

yeah, as long as there aren't killing minions and then it becomes another losscon and you'll have to hide until night 3

[coral jungle]

Actually, it's pretty good. You're also a budget PG. The minions will never get bluffs and the demon will never find the minions.

So you're actually a stronger Magician as well as a budget engineer.

[tawny haven]

I've talked about Alch before but here's about where I'm at

[coral jungle]

Xaan is good without Heretic since you can go for the Xaan 0

[late ingot]

Alch baron can me ok, fight me

[coral jungle]

Also, did you know every unjinxed Alc ability is good when BH turned?

[tulip sage]

have your opinions on Organ Grinder/Spy/Widow/Wraith/Summoner/Poisoner changed much btw?

[runic solstice]

I kinda like the idea of doing them more than once per day

[coral jungle]

What is the number we have to do again?

[late ingot]

it just needs gentle outsiders and it's confirming players

[real heron]

Yippee I’m in part of the screenshot

[coral jungle]

It was good until new Alc nerfed it into the ground

Double the Barons is half the fun!

[late ingot]

build good bags and not bad ones

[real heron]

All outsiders except it’s not cause of arbitrary outsider count demons

Why is DA a bad alch ability? I just genuinely don’t know

[coral jungle]

Worse pacifist.

[late ingot]

replacing an alsaahir you know nothing about with a butler you know to be good is a fine trade for the good team

[real heron]

Can’t evils just insert themselves in that confirmation chain incredibly easily?