Character interaction thingy

[cinder shell]

whcih is why I think that ascribing fun values (UNDERTALE REFRRENCE??) to strategies isn’t a good idea

[edgy socket]

I think purely optimal "out the whole evil team" goblin play isn't mechanically solvable, i.e there isn't a town that can consistently deal with it (but there are many towns that can deal with it sometimes)

Like I think the scripts that can be complained about for allowing this actually have a lot of mechanical ways to solve a goblin (goblin scarlet is another issue), this is just a breaking strategy in a large subset of games with the things that don't make it entirely breaking being "it'll backfire enough most people don't want to overcome their inherent dislike of it"

[viscid hazel]

agreed

you often run into unsolvable situations in clocktower

that's not an issue

[edgy socket]

I think it kind of is an issue in terms of goblin but mostly it's about the role itself and partially it's about scripting it with scarlet

[tawny haven]

I personally don't think it's too fun to have those "well shit the entire evil team is claiming goblin" scenarios as literally any alignment, as someone who was forced into it as the Demon before - having a decent amount of solvability on script helps disincentivize it

(long story, marionette outed the evil team for shits and giggles)

[edgy socket]

"Marionette can win games"
The games the Marionette wins:

[tawny haven]

oh no we lost

[edgy socket]

Even better

[late ingot]

yea having several unique worlds and choosing between them based on socials and which players pushed for which executions is fun

[dim sandal]

woah what is this

[late ingot]

having 2-3 identical worlds where only the goblin and demon/scarlet woman are swapped sucks

[dim sandal]

how did i get here

[summer adder]

hi mizu

[dim sandal]

hello person1101

[late ingot]

if I wanted to do that I'd just go flip a coin and save myself 89 minutes and 56 seconds

[dim sandal]

oh yeah scarlet goblin is brutal

which suck too because like

scarlet and goblin on first thought is a great pair together due to them being quiet

[runic solstice]

The funny thing about goblin scarlet is in 99% of cases yes it's brutal but there's a handful of characters that can differentiate them just fine

I wanna make a teensy or midsy based around this (there's no way there's enough tf for a full)

And call it "lip reading"

[dim sandal]

but can those character that differentiate them survive a different composititon

and by survive i mean for both team

[edgy socket]

I feel like 3 out of 4 options being Artist, Investigator, and Juggler highlights my problem with goblinsolving as defined by people who think a lot about it

[runic solstice]

Preacher is more what I had in mind

[edgy socket]

Invest basically doesn't do that and Artist/Juggler can't do it in a way that consistently distinguishes (Artist can on a non-scarlet script)

[runic solstice]

Artist can ask if it's possible for someone to end the game as the demon

[edgy socket]

Which is notably the problem people use to claim TC isn't a goblinsolver

[edgy socket]

The issue I'm pointing out is if you ask early you just hit the goblin in your ping sometimes and if you put it off you die unspent a lot

[dim sandal]

juggler is also just, not a real goblin solver

i won't elaborate

[runic solstice]

No need to elaborate lol

That one's just correct

[dim sandal]

yipee

[viscid hazel]

I mean it can be for the same reason as artist if it rules out the goblin as possibly being the demon

[edgy socket]

It's not an issue that'll effect every game but it effects enough that goblin hellzones are just a play pattern the role produces and the things that stop them are mostly "not wanting to"

[viscid hazel]

but yeah its not consistent

[dim sandal]

honestly i think the thing that feel really bad about goblin is that

goblin either get counter by 1 tf or win

so it just like, actual roll of the dice sometime

[viscid hazel]

h

if you have a good ojo they can be a goblin solver

[coral jungle]

This is a great interaction! The Ojo chooses Goblin, thus defusing the town's Goblin issue.

[winter bobcat]

You mean like x or x ?

[runic solstice]

Bad interactions why would you even consider them

[past brook]

Just need an amnesiac then

[spice ferry]

8/23: Preacher X Vizier

[runic solstice]

Can we also say that if the interaction is jinxed we list the jinx

Just in general

[spice ferry]

Personally. I think the jinx has so much more depth than at first glance.

It gives room for doubt, good storytelling, etc.

[runic solstice]

Okay so basically vizier is better with the jinx than without

[spice ferry]

Yes exactly. It is one of those rare instances of jinxes creating possibly a much better game with more depth.

[still sedge]

I mean it nerfs preacher

If preacher picks vizier on the first night it benefits evil

[spice ferry]

There’s some positive even if that happens. It’s certainly a arkhams snipe but it cancels a minion… albeit secretly.

[dim sandal]

i think it's less of a nerf and more of a rebalancing

killing an evil AND having a good hard confirm is uh, pretty harsh for evil

[still sedge]

No i mean vizier not being announced

Ya know

So it isn’t a thrall and is instead a blank token

[jaunty tapir]

I mean confirming yourself when you die and having a second demon in terms of wincons is still good but probably barely not as good as the net gain of a preacher and the net gain of being against a vizier

[vale frigate]

Cuz a minion with no ability is better than Vizier?

[still sedge]

yea

[vale frigate]

Lmao

[steady granite]

“confirming yourself when you die” means what in this context?

[runic solstice]

The Vizier is announced for the first time once the preacher ability goes offline

[steady granite]

Yeah if you snipe the vizier I guess

[fluid pelican]

Is fine if you have ways for preacher to be drunk/poisoned

[tawny haven]

My only experience with the jinx is on Hystrex's A Waltz With Insanity which is not a real script

idk it's probably fine

[spice ferry]

I made this one a while back with a special bishop rule.

https://www.botcscripts.com/script/7396/1.1.0

[runic solstice]

You have played quadjank

Which is also not real but the jinx is more normal there

[tawny haven]

teensies aren't real clocktower 😇

[late ingot]

I ran a flesh and bone game that was a d1 rerack to this jinx

[stuck locust]

did they think it was heretic?

[late ingot]

no they just believed the bluff

[stuck locust]

if vizier was announced then surely it couldn't have been preached n1

[vale frigate]

Yeah

What

[stuck locust]

nice evil bluff if town didn't catch it tho

[late ingot]

i think they claimed alch-vizier

and the loss was only possible because the preacher was on script

town was just kinda memeing

[winter bobcat]

**8/24: Vigormortis X Scarlet Woman **

[real heron]

Cringe and I house rule that the vigor-killed minions stay vigor-killed when a scar pass happens cause RAW they don’t. Still doesn’t fix the clash these two have

[fringe mirage]

Can technically work if you have other Drmons on script

But that’s the other Demons working with SW, not really Vigor

I suppose it can open up different types of Outsider bluffs if the ST gives the Vigor Outsider bluffs

But you kinda can’t gain the Vigor benefits

Does help to be a 2 minion game where you can hit a minion who’s better for Vigor

[real heron]

Vigor itself doesn’t like SW at all. The vigor doesn’t want to kill the SW cause it loses a minion’s voting and nominating power and their ability, all to poison a TF they could kill or frame anyway

[real heron]

I mean, that’s kind of the SW doing its thing. The SW enables much riskier/stronger bluff potential, but it isn’t specific to Vigor. Imo the way I’ve found SW to be most fun is to bluff a powerful info role to have strong control over frames and stuff. I just find that outsider bluffs don’t really fit that

[steady granite]

this is one of the only house rules I actually support since vig killed minions losing abilities when the vig changes feels more like a bug than a feature

[hollow fulcrum]

somehow worse than vig-ET

[winter bobcat]

the question becomes what other ways are there to deal with vigor's immobility?

[edgy socket]

cringe

t. vigor

[edgy socket]

I mean I think it's just a less mobile demon -- I run vigorkills as persistent between instances but a demon that kills its minions is going to be less mobile than one that doesn't, by default

Part of what the ability does is obscure demon candidacy through means other than traditional mobility

Anyway jackraw jinx when

[past brook]

That’s a cool way to rule it

[still sedge]

I mean zombuul clause I assume

[edgy socket]

just don't let the poisoned townsfolk die, skill issue

[real heron]

Yeah, it enables the demon to kill players that are less significant demon candidates than the remaining good players. Plus the poison and added confusion over minion candidates is a great way to obfuscate things too

[edgy socket]

That is a component but I'd put the core of it a bit differently

[winter bobcat]

Is this a + evil?

[edgy socket]

yes

[winter bobcat]

interesting

[humble lantern]

Literally a fine interaction I don’t know why folks get so upset about it 😭 you have a scarlet woman for goodness sake I’d rather keep the demon alive and in play than fall over dead because I lost my 1 other vig kill. Someone said it above, it’s a bad interaction for the Vigor but like it’s fine guys, just win 😎

[edgy socket]

It's fine as like the last minion on a script but it's fundamentally annoying to have that level of bagbuilding restriction at 1-2 minions
People will whine endlessly about how they are being personally forced by Steven Medway to rack 1 minion vigor twin and at least twins have reason to kill them

Also I think a lot of people dislike having a minion on a script that requires houseruling to not be a thrall (this is something of a homescript interaction but so it goes)

(like none of the minions on snv require it and I think the jump there is distasteful to a lot of people)

[stuck locust]

I really don't like having a minion that does nothing when vigorkilled (twin vigor is fine)

[hollow fulcrum]

sw is a minion that has a useful ability, but the way that ability butts heads with what vigor wants to be doing means that for either of them to do their thing it requires a sacrifice from the other one (and not in the cool bmr confoundy way)

[tawny haven]

every script gets one bad vigorkill, as a treat

[tawny haven]

anyway this is really funny

[edgy socket]

Going to run this on Friendly Invitations and be banned from longtext

[tawny haven]

either you run rules as written by vati (so a barber swap or sw pass doesn't lose your vigor kill) or you just get good

and don't require mobility

[past copper]

i’m going to vigorkill my scarlet

cuz i’m not a coward

also if i get executed it’s a funny grim reveal

[tawny haven]

no spirit of ivory?

[edgy socket]

That's for cowards

[runic solstice]

I keep seeing this on scripts and my conclusion is that they haven't read the Vigormortis' ability text

[spare hinge]

vigor's worst safety net
though it does help cement Vigor's status as a glass cannon that basically none of the safety nets are great with it
still, if you have to use a safety net with vigor, use basically anything other than SW

[weak ingot]

SW isn't very good
Goblin isn't very good
Vizier isn't very good
DA is almost problematically good and needs to be treated with caution

so basically to me it's just the outsiders

or pithag. who knew home script is okay

same with barber

[spare hinge]

MM can work

you need a good death mod suite but outside of that, MM is pretty inoffensive with Vigor

[tawny haven]

you just have to houserule that vigor mm works

[runic solstice]

It's barely even a house rule

[spare hinge]

jams said it works, didn't they?

[vale frigate]

*role mastermind

[pure raft]

Mastermind (Minion) - Bad Moon Rising

If the Demon dies by execution (ending the game), play for 1 more day. If a player is then executed, their team loses.

**Affects Setup: **False

[steady granite]

it’s not like a rancid game breaking interaction but it’s kinda just a nothingburger for vig scripts

[vale frigate]

why would vigor killed mastermind not trigger?

[steady granite]

because the mastermind would lose their ability

[vale frigate]

ahh

[steady granite]

however vig mastermind is already not super helpful so you can just say they keep their ability and nobody would argue ngl

[weak ingot]

RAW mm doesn't work but honestly atp you should hand wave it in whatever buffet you're running if it happens

[vale frigate]

should be a jinx

[edgy socket]

DA is "it's meant to be problematic, this demon does not have a stable balance point, give it the fun one"

[dim sandal]

the stable point is like

very obviously lunatic-vigor in a lycan game

.

[edgy socket]

Hey req ran that yesterday and the lunatic only worked it out when she died

[dim sandal]

https://tenor.com/view/sancho-sancho-limbus-sancho-canto-7-canto-7-canto-7-limbus-gif-14334152630275618064

[winter bobcat]

What's the overlap with Vig/Kazali in minion suites

Wait....someone should make a venn diagram with like 15 circles for each demon, and minion icons go in the overlaps of whatever demons they work well with

with FM/Viz maybe ET all outside of the circles, obviously

[edgy socket]

Evil Twin works with Vortox 😎

[past brook]

Vizier works well with imp

[tawny haven]

FM works with LoT

[past brook]

Scarlet woman works well with Lleech

[dim sandal]

Goblin works with Lil Monsta

[runic solstice]

Damsel works with huntsman

[coral jungle]

Baron works with Kazali

[hollow fulcrum]

mez works with kazali

[jaunty tapir]

engineer works

[tawny haven]

Cult Leader

[runic solstice]

Demon

[past brook]

G

[weak ingot]

2025-08-25: Pacifist X Legion

y'all i fixed the date arguments

[edgy socket]

there's a simple solution: time isn't real

[hollow fulcrum]

i’ve seen exactly one person (nerdguy) advocate for this interaction being good and i have to assume there’s a reason for that

i don’t have any opinion on it myself because i’ve never tried it

[past brook]

If a player survives execution then they can’t be legion

I also haven’t played a script with this but that sounds like a bad thing

[hollow fulcrum]

the argument as i understand it is that it forces legion to actively push DA worlds instead of just giving up and going for “outed legion getting the most trusted one to f3”

[real heron]

That is the reverse order to what I’m used to so not really lol

[real heron]

Yeah I prefer the latter and the former of forcing the legion to conform to a particular playstyle is kinda unfun anyway cause having agency over what you do in the game is really important imo

[weak ingot]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8601

do not argue with the International Organi[sz]ation for Standardi[sz]ation

[tawny haven]

I think it's interesting and currently somewhat unexplored right now. Separation of Church and State is good fun but I haven't actually racked Pacifist/Legion there (but it'd involve selling the paci save as the Lleech for the legion team).

Initial concerns are that it's a little odd at low player counts? The Pacifist isn't going to be voting on their save and the save isn't going to be voting on the Pacifist, so... you're just screwed as evil, right?

[weak ingot]

i do want to make a paci legion script but this is also my concern

[still sedge]

It’s a little rough at low player counts(specifically 2 good)

But good news

The confirmation is kind of one-sided when the pacifist saves d4

so they’re still a DA frame

[late ingot]

right, but in a non-legion game the paci probably isn't the demon

[real heron]

I mean, my group is relatively new to BMR and the demon has bluffed paci 2 times cause it was a bluff. Maybe that meta of ‘pack likely not demon’ just doesn’t exist in my group? I kinda assumed it was normal tbh

(relatively new meaning less than 15 games)

[frigid flower]

||Can we get a zealot + vortox soon?||

[viscid hazel]

this one's annoying because they often fit on similar types of scripts but don't work well together

[viscid hazel]

Legion and exe survival don't really belong together imo

I've played lots of scripts with it

It just never seems to work

[spice ferry]

In a vacuum sure... but if you add that the execution survivals are part of the script then perhaps it can

synergy with paci/legion and others is what I mean

not synergy between paci and legion

[still sedge]

The person they saved is probably the demon

Or alternatively, the DA was alive and now isn’t

[weak ingot]

pacifist is also a justification for DA with legion

DA is "loud" and Legion "doesn't like loud minions" but with other exe survival it can work

[cinder shell]

8/26: Plague Doctor x Scarlet Woman

[weak ingot]

oh i think we need a queue lol

there's like 2 interaction requests in backlog 😭

[cinder shell]

: If the PD dies, a living minion gets the SW ability and learns this.

[edgy socket]

type faster

[weak ingot]

they're not even mine

[edgy socket]

Cool and based, but involves making good scripts and not bad ones (sorry bra1n I'm not putting goblin on cc)

[weak ingot]

If the Plague Doctor dies, a living Minion gains the Scarlet Woman ability in addition to their own ability, and learns this.

the thing about the PD jinxes is that the wording suggests the ST can gain a Minion ability and give a minion the SW ability

[cinder shell]

sure but like, RAI it’s clear what they are saying

[weak ingot]

yeah but it is definitely weird

esp because other jinxes say "If the Storyteller gains the Baron ability..."

[viscid hazel]

surprisingly ok

[dim sandal]

what is there to say about this?

this seems like intended interaction tbh

[weak ingot]

i mean yeah

[dim sandal]

"the character that give extra minion ability to the evil team give extra minion ability to the evil team"

just don't accidentally create 2 demon via double scarlet or something

[weak ingot]

this channel is about interactions

generally PD helps the SW-less evil team gain additional escape hatches

it's a perfectly acceptable escape hatch, and might be thought of as a less damaging Hatter or something

[tawny haven]

The Minion with the SW ability not registering as the SW is less awful than, say, a Minion with the Goblin ability not registering as the Goblin - fun jinx that provides mobility where a Barber might be too harsh on good

[runic solstice]

Yeah it's like fine

I don't have a strong opinion on this interaction

I'm not gonna put one on a script FOR the other but if the script wants both I'll put em both on with no problem

There's some things to be careful about (goblin) but like that's not unique in the slightest

[winter bobcat]

8/27: Boffin x Alchemist

(forgive me if this has been done before)

[kind berry]

Don’t make the alchemist an outsider and give the demon an ability they don’t want
Also put some of these characters into your script if you have alchemist and boffin

[deft stirrup]

Yeah, there are pretty fun ways to hinder Demon with good abilities they have.

[kind berry]

My fav one yet is damsel on a poppy grower game

[deft stirrup]

Boffin giving the Alchemist ability to Demon can result in some interesting and sometimes cursed stuff (like double Minion ability or Boffin-Alch-Vizier)

[late ingot]

this is a fun duo! An alchemist with the boffin ability has some fun choices (I do wish we had 2-3 additional roles that hurt the demon), and a demon with a minion ability grants some additional coordination to evil

[spice ferry]

Alch-boffin is one of those alchemist combos that are so reliant on script. As in, the ability you give to the demon has to help the good team in some way and which one to give out is based on game state.

Some example:
Poppy-grower, grandmother, soldier, etc.

[fringe mirage]

Butler & Zealot would also work

[spice ferry]

Yeah absolutely. Zealot a lot more than butler but both can limit the demon voting agency a lot

[spare hinge]

Boffin-GM is so fire actually

[chilly cedar]

I do like this combination

[coral jungle]

You can do Sailor if you drunk the demon over and over again. You could, but don't.

Pacifist is a legitimately good combo

[fringe mirage]

Side note: Boffin Alchemist is actually a decent interaction two ways

Giving the Demon a bad ability as the Alch is fun

But an evil Boffin who gives the Demon Alch is usually a really good ability to get

[coral jungle]

Also, this interaction is great in a third way. Drowning your friends in recursive chemistry.

[weak ingot]

...alch boffin alch boffin alch boffin alch boffin alch boffin alch boffin alch boffin alch boffin...

[chilly cedar]

Boffin Sailor doesn't drunk the Demon but the Sailor ability

Boffin is jank anyway

[runic solstice]

Post the jinx pls

Ya it's cool

[winter bobcat]

my b. Didn't realize that was the convention

sorry

[chilly cedar]

I like the jinx

[viscid hazel]

the other side of this interaction is boffin giving the demon the alchemist ability

which is pretty darn strong

[vast inlet]

kinda silly from the boffin's perspective ("my ability is that you have an ability I could have had directly") but a minion ability from the demon's perspective is probably situationally helpful, and can also double up on minions abilities, which is cool

[viscid hazel]

the demon gets to coordinate their minion ability with their kill

which is very good I think its like the whole benefit of wraith

[vast inlet]

ah that is a good point

[viscid hazel]

but the ST can randomly say no to stuff which is funny

[chilly cedar]

Mm

[vast inlet]

no redundancy with poisoner/assassin/witch/cerenovus/pit-hag/etc is pretty decent

since it's very common for two evil players both having the same idea of which good player they want dealt with the most

[winter bobcat]

Also you can theoretically give the demon the ability

so that's fun

I mean you shouldn't, but you can

[vale frigate]

Ok but does it really tho

[still sedge]

Yes

[vale frigate]

Legion can't bluff any role that creates execution survival

Well they can, but the ability won't trigger

[still sedge]

If you can have a way for legion to out evil effectively(sayyyyy goblin)

You can test goodies

who needs bluffability

Alternatively you can say no goodies died to execution

which is valid

[vale frigate]

And if Pacifist save happens in a legion game, is legion just kinda fucked?

[still sedge]

Sell DA

easier when the save happens d3

[vale frigate]

Legion needs good to execute each other, and pacifist just nullified their potential win

[vale frigate]

Sure but that's not easy

[still sedge]

You have 8 teammates figure it out

Legion has a 63% winrate and legion just laying down and crying legion isn’t interesting

[vale frigate]

I'm amazed at that winrate

[tawny haven]

28/8: Vigormortis / Tinker

[hollow fulcrum]

fire on specific scripts (gone fission)

[humble lantern]

CoaCT :)

[tawny haven]

vigor isn't even on coact anymore!!!

[edgy socket]

Why are all of these questions about me

[tawny haven]

because vigor tinker is a thing people say and never justify

[edgy socket]

are 'people' just hystrex

[humble lantern]

In shambles

[hollow fulcrum]

to elaborate on this (not posting my beautiful child unless someone asks me to) vig/tinker is cool with stuff like po and mastermind where a vigkilled minion can bluff tinker to make good panic about a hidden no-death night that might be catastrophic for them

[humble lantern]

Who changed it

[tawny haven]

it's on your tier list in the pm slot

[humble lantern]

Vigor CoaCT was goated

[steady granite]

how do these two characters interact

[edgy socket]

Some guy named Paradox, you should ban him

[tawny haven]

"vigorkilled minion bluffing tinker" mainly

[humble lantern]

Killing minion bluffing tinker obscures demon type

Meaning harder Vigor find

[edgy socket]

I didn't have a better place to put it but I think it works as an in-play outsider and a bluff to reasonably close degrees which means it falls there

even though it's worse at both than e.g. pm

[fringe mirage]

You don’t gain a lot from bluffing Tinker as Vigor killed Minion, compared to some Outsiders

But Vigor works with BMR Minions, as does Tinker. So it works on the right script, but more cause Vigor & Tinker work with other stuff

[cinder shell]

idgi

[hollow fulcrum]

in the context of the average custom i agree, i do think it can be uniquely interesting on scripts where a night of no deaths is especially dangerous and good might have difficulty distinguishing between a real tinker exploding to hide a no death night and a vigkilled minion bluffing that happening in time to make the best call

[coral jungle]

Vig+Tinker, Vig+Tinker. This interaction isn't bad. It's not good, but it's not bad. Bluffing Tinker is as good of an option as bluffing many other outsiders to hide the Vigor. Tinker is a BMR character, and Vigor works just as well on BMR as it does on SnV (if you give it a MM jinx). All in all, this interaction exists.
Verdict: C-tier

[jaunty tapir]

I don't think vigor benefits from the sort of game acceleration that tinker provides (seeing as a tinker won't end the game a full day early like a vigorkilled assassin or such). It seems more useful as death count obfuscation as a single death to create MM fear or distracting an exorcist and that sort of thing. But also, killing a tinker is additionally useful because vigor is somewhat of a glass cannon and it's much more useful to kill a tinker in order to frame a different demon world- it of course varies per script, but I think on average it's probably stronger to kill a tinker to create a multideath night than killing a tinker to get one kill on an otherwise zero-death knight

[chilly cedar]

It's fine

On China Shop Tinker can help Vigor frame faster killing evil teams

I can see Tinker as a Vigor killed Minion try to frame slower killing Demons, but that's a tad outside my experience

There are usually better Outsiders to bluff

More generally, Vigor multideath synergises quite well

So these characters do find themselves on scripts together quite often for that

[chilly cedar]

Assassin and Godfather are both good Vigor kills, as ensuring extra deaths for evil is powerful.

If there is execution survival Vigor DA is exceptional.

And Tinker synergises well with Assassin and Godfather

So yeah these characters work well with the right package

[tawny haven]

post script child

[chilly cedar]

Let's not post children

Posting scripts on the other hand...

👀

[stuck locust]

yeah Legion is the strongest demon in the game based off app winrate stats

[weak ingot]

legion is pretty strong already as it is

if your group is naturally good at the things legion should do (coordination, information spreading, vote etiquette) you're gonna have a lot of legion wins

putting pacifist in the legion script is giving legion a challenge

[runic solstice]

FIRE

Y'all are sleeping on tinker it's like top 7 bluffs for a vigorkilled minion

Especially if you have like summoner or Po or something

[deft stirrup]

Yeah it's good bluff for deathmod script

[chilly cedar]

yea if supported by these then yes

[tawny haven]

It's exactly summoner right

Because you want to vigorkill minions early

so framing po on N2 doesn't really do much in a bigger game

since the Po charge doesn't happen and the game continues

(in different contexts eg midsies this has varying effectiveness ofc)

[runic solstice]

Yeah mostly

I have another script that uses it differently, I'll pull it up

[jaunty tapir]

I suppose you could frame assassin with a doublekill on select scripts and then surprise good with an actual assassin to end the game early?

[runic solstice]

https://www.botcscripts.com/script/8235/1.0.0

Mm engine where tinker is the only source of extra death

[tawny haven]

oh the Stormcaught mutant one

[runic solstice]

Ya

[hollow fulcrum]

this is my wonderful offspring
as a midsy (designed for 7-9 players) a po charge can be devastating to town, especially if there's still a DA or something hanging around
a no death night if it happens at the right time ranges from "we just sleep" to "OH GOD OH FUCK WE HAVE TO KILL THE DEMON TODAY"
both tinker and vigor-tinker help support this, since a "tinker" dying creates all of the stress of a no death night while also accelerating the game

this script is relatively untested so tbh i cant speak towards how effective this paranoia engine is but people seem to like everything else this script has going on for it so shrug

[tawny haven]

@spare hinge midsy

oooh o-mod mastermind

[chilly cedar]

also

[hollow fulcrum]

o-mod MM and Widow is super interesting on 7 from the one (1) game i ran of this latest version because an outsider claim is effectively another widow ping that's also claiming its po

[chilly cedar]

Vigor Po Tinker in theory is ok. But surely framing 'Po charge' on anything that's not final 4 isn't gonna be that scary

Like people play around po but the game will continue later

[hollow fulcrum]

5 too, 6 sometimes if DA tempo is a concern

[chilly cedar]

fair

[hollow fulcrum]

but its turning a day that could maybe be used to do science or execute into a fringe world into executing the player they think is most likely the po in a charge world while town only has a night or two of info, even if the game keeps going thats a decent tempo swing

and if the demon just hits normal tinkers sometimes or if there's an active TL or something the vigkilled "tinker" can keep some social credit

alsaahir is really potent here because its 1 minion with no demon mobility so compared to many scripts/games it has a much easier time of eliminating worlds, and getting to eliminate specific vig/vigkill or po/minion pairs is super helpful

[hollow fulcrum]

i pinged him with an early early version but didnt want to bother him with the update </3

[spare hinge]

I don't mind pings!!!

(as long as they're reasonable)

and midsy pings are always reasonable

[hollow fulcrum]

📝

oh wow the latest version i showed you was pre-v1

[fringe mirage]

8/29: Pixie x Cerenovus

[weak ingot]

being cerepicked as the pixie is very Feels Bad

i personally wouldn't recommend it

but mechanically speaking it is definitely an interesting interaction

i just don't see the point

[edgy socket]

cool, fine, etc

Pixie without other forms of madness can feel weird socially and the circumstances where you'd irrevocably lose an ability to a cere are pretty niche (and not that unlike a poisonsnipe)

[hollow fulcrum]

only if the player they’re confirming dies the day or night after they’re ceremad

[tawny haven]

good interaction! they like having each other on script to explain doubleclaims

[graceful plume]

I feel like both independently already explain doubleclaims

Dunno, adding a Cerenovus to a Pixie script kind of takes the wind out of the Pixies sails a lot, I'm a huge fan

[tawny haven]

Pixie likes having other ways to explain doubleclaims on script - if it's the only reason then it can socially feel weird and mean it's harder to justify not breaking pixie madness

I've personally experienced this in a script of mine

[graceful plume]

That's fair, Pixie needs it a tad bit harder than Cerenovus

[past copper]

pixie can regain madness

[stuck locust]

Good, I think scripts with madness should have multiple sources of it

[covert karma]

This interaction is fine as long as the ST allows the Pixie to regain madness

[chilly cedar]

This interaction is great imo

Or more

I think they work well with each other on script

Directly having a cere make a pixie mad can suck for the pixie, but ye if you run madness regaining (which is intended I think) then I think its good

[coral jungle]

This is a pretty good interaction here. The pixie getting Cere-locked can be kinda sad, but if the ST lets them regain madness its not that much of a problem. If anything, it's a benefit. Cere and Pixie are both good reasons for double claims, and they just compliment each other real nicely.

As for the Cere making someone mad as the Pixie, it depends. It's actually a pretty bad choice as a one-off since that will let the person share their info. But if you Cere-lock someone as a different role and then the Pixie, you can use your madness to build a whole story.

[runic solstice]

Their script presence is nice until you get made mad as the pixie and it becomes incredibly obvious what's going on meaning madness became meaningless

I know I'm like the only one to not like this interaction but I avoid it whenever I can

Madness shouldn't be telegraphed

If a townsfolk isn't a good ceremadness pick, that counts as a telegraph (if a minor one)

Oh and yeah the cerenovus can rob the pixie of their ability but that's secondary

[hollow fulcrum]

i mean sometimes real pixies out

[runic solstice]

Yeah but if you first make them mad as the empath then the pixie they can just not claim pixie empath, that's the problem here

They'll just claim pixie seamstress or something

[runic solstice]

Yeah but it's a range thing

Not all real pixies will ever out until they think they've procced

[hollow fulcrum]

idk that sounds like the cere’s problem imo

[runic solstice]

Great now pixie claims can't be ceremad

Those are real claims

Because making someone mad as the pixie is the cere's problem

[hollow fulcrum]

making someone who has an obvious tell like “never ever breaks pixiemadness” mad as the pixie might backfire

which ig only matters in a group where you know how different people approach characters and doesnt help with randos

i don’t think i know anyone whose perspective is “i’ll never ever break pixie madness until i have an ability” though

[runic solstice]

Range, not perspective

Some people just don't break madness idk what to tell you

[runic solstice]

Did you know that this is how most of clocktower is played lol

[chilly cedar]

I'm a bit confused about this point?

I'm reading the words

But not seeing the issue

[chilly cedar]

If telegraphing means 'someone claiming this at a specific point in the game is unbelievable, and hence makes the cerenovous madness obvious', then I don't think that's an issue. Late game Flowergirl/Savant/high info character madnesses have a similar issue where their claims are disbelieved

[chilly cedar]

And this strategy seems a bit more shaky then I think you are making it out to be.

The 'Pixie Seamstress' needs a good reason why they've been mad as the empath the whole game, or they risk breaking madness

In the same way that players who only put in half effort for their madness might be executed.

I think Pixie Cere has a lot of upsides and are cool on the same script. I'm just feeling like I'm not getting the spirit of your points Hystrex

[hollow fulcrum]

most online clocktower maybe

[real heron]

I really like them being together on a script. Additional sources for madness means it’s less socially loud (or rather the volume of madness is an expected thing when approaching a game)

My general approach to pixie being ceremad is that the ceremadness doesn’t turn off the Pixie’s ability, as long as it’s conforming to ceremadness, since any player (even if they are actually the role the pixie saw) would still conform to the ceremadness. So as long as the pixie has shown evidence of claiming the role they saw outside of the ceremadness, they can gain the ability. It’s similar to ‘regaining madness’ but it can occur even if the pixie was ceremad on the day they would gain the ability

[coral jungle]

8/30: Godfather x Mutant

[viscid hazel]

Literally just fine I think

[weak ingot]

one time the mutant wasn't claiming to be anything and refusing to speak to anyone and was on the block, so i just madness executed them to telegraph to the demon that their godfather was getting a kill

stuff's weird

but yeah this is just a fine interaction

[runic solstice]

This is good!! Mutant is a character that needs script support at high player counts and gf is a good way to accomplish that

Just be careful at low player counts because this can realistically cost good 2 executions

[tawny haven]

It's pretty brutal but I love it

since while most other Outsiders can out Outsider to avoid a GF kill, the Mutant risks madness execution if they do the same

meaning you sometimes get scenarios like "if this player is the Mutant in a Godfather game we just lose here, but they're also a major Demon candidate so should we risk it"

[green fiber]

just don’t do this as a cere lol

[runic solstice]

that's the problem

[chilly cedar]

That's not a problem

Making someone mad on final day that they are Savant runs into a similar problem

'oh no Savant would wait until final day to reveal their presence'

That's the same for any info character

"The script presence is nice until they get mad as the Washerwoman and it becomes incredily obvious what's going on meaning madness became meaningless"

[late ingot]

Godfather/mutant cool!! big fan of anything that makes the mutant a real outsider in larger games

[tawny haven]

31/8: Pukka / Princess

[stuck locust]

kinda rough on the Princess tbh

the n1 poison is untraceable

[spare hinge]

the n1 poison doesn't affect Princess right? only n2

I think it's a fun interaction! It lets Pukka have nice things but also poses a pretty significant risk since town could solve for Pukka off of it

Potentially interesting with Vigor and a n3 Minion kill?

[deft stirrup]

Poisoning the Princess N1 means they die N2 by Pukka.

[stuck locust]

i mean like it's impossible to figure out who was poisoned n1 after a princess night

[deft stirrup]

Well, trickier part is that if Pukka doesn't pick Princess either N1/N2 then N1 poison can't be tracked.

Yeah, true

[stuck locust]

I think it makes a generally weak character a bit weaker

[spare hinge]

oh yeah true

[weak ingot]

is the only part of this that the pukka can fake princess

[jaunty tapir]

I think it works when it's the only (or one of the only) reasons for the princess to be droisoned then, so the pukka still has to make the decision whether they stop the princess but out pukka

but it is good with vigor, a minion bluffs princess and then you kill them n3

[runic solstice]

Not great, it's been mentioned but yeah the poison is rough on the princess

It can be done

But I wouldn't do this on purpose

If a script really wants both I'm not gonna resist it too hard

The death mod confound is nice I guess (though it barely does anything)

[fringe mirage]

Mixed opinioin

If the Princess prevents a target from dying, the Pukka can mask who was poisoned N1. It does require some on the fly adjustment by the Pukka, since they might have to re-attack their N1 choice later

Its harder for a Pukka to intentionally bluff Princess, but Pukka misses are a reason why no deaths would happen, so its not the end of the world

[cinder shell]

I think it’s easy for the Pukka to bluff princess but difficult for the rest of evil team

[fringe mirage]

well the Pukka cant avoid killng their N1 target, right?

i mean, pukka itself provides 2 explanations for why Princess doesnt work but one of those involves killing said Princess

[cinder shell]

the pukka bluffing princess just nominates their n1 choice

[stuck locust]

it's quite hard to "just nominate" someone

i wouldn't call it easy

[cinder shell]

I would

[stuck locust]

you can't nominate anyone and expect people to vote on it if you bluff princess

I wouldn't vote on a nom I think isn't good even if it's a princess claim

[cinder shell]

well you claim princess and see what happens

[stuck locust]

princess noms are often somewhat a group decision

[cinder shell]

maybe

sometimes the princess just noms

[hollow fulcrum]

the pukka can poison the player who nommed the d1 exe and be safe from princess concerns

this is… fine? idk depends on the script’s dynamics

[chilly cedar]

It's harder to bluff as a pukka than the imp

imp can kill dead people

So I don't think that angle is especially strong

[winter bobcat]

pukka can just poison themself no?

[tawny haven]

That means they can't kill for the entire game

Since they can't unpoison themselves

[winter bobcat]

whatever it takes to bluff princess, right?

[chilly cedar]

pff

[fringe mirage]

9/1: Psychopath x No Dashii

[weak ingot]

do they interact more than tangentially

[past brook]

I don’t think they’ve got much of a direct interaction but Psychopath is usually a character for loud minion suites and ND is great for adding droison in loud minion suites

So if I’ve got a Psychopath on script I’ll probably add a No Dashii

[weak ingot]

i guess outed minions can technically maybe point to the no dashii

i don't think that's a common enough occurrence or niche solve state though

could make a funny puzzle. where the psychopath allows you to solve for no dashii

[viscid hazel]

the psychopath can kill the no dashii and lose

[winter bobcat]

The noDashii can kill the psychopath and lose have fun

[wild bridge]

Slicing up octopus can make some quality sushi!

[runic solstice]

They're fine together but don't lean into each other by any means

Well

The ND leans into the psycho but not the other way around

Psycho is like witch in that it can pick off powerful townsfolk

And having fewer Townsfolk alive synergizes with having fewer sober Townsfolk

To the point where sometimes there's like 1 left by n2

[winter bobcat]

that's assuming psycho outs early no?

[runic solstice]

But, dashii is most interesting when it can move

[runic solstice]

Yeah true

[runic solstice]

Even if there's ways to move around on the script, dashii can't realistically count on moving to a psycho

Psycho being outed ever also means extension cords are easier to solve for

Witch does a whole lot of the same things as psycho but without any outedness which is why it works nicely on snv

[magic ferry]

I have now discovered this channel

[chilly cedar]

Yeah it's

[hollow fulcrum]

welcome

[winter bobcat]

9/2: Boffin x Banshee

[hollow fulcrum]

cute with imp/zombuul

[winter bobcat]

Fg too no?

[hollow fulcrum]

i knew i was forgetting one

with fang gu thats a LOT of voting power tho

[kind berry]

Yeah so banshee can vote twice against the boffin

[winter bobcat]

Honestly, idea, what if every first of the month we did a triple interaction?

[hollow fulcrum]

or every 2 weeks?

[kind berry]

Are there more actual triple interactions or total 2-character interaction?

[hollow fulcrum]

define "actual triple interaction"

[spare hinge]

Be very careful if you have extra evils on script, but other than that, fire

[kind berry]

"You can't carry it by only taking two of them" (nor to spend 3 days for all 3 pairs)

[hollow fulcrum]

ah

[kind berry]

Like one i could want is but there's nothing extra by having all 3 at the same time (but it saves two days because , and could all be worth spending a day, i already did the 1st one some weeks ago)

[hollow fulcrum]

ah

[kind berry]

(Unless i'm too tired to see that having all 3 on a script adds a third layer that you can't have by removing one)

Ig if they are all in play, now the politician needs to decide on which one to bluff

[fringe mirage]

One of the better things to do Boffin Bait role I suppose

You'd never want Boffin Sage. Boffin RK can just be done by, like, Dreamer or Wash or smething

Boffin Farmer gets confirmation but still removes Demon candidates

Boffin Banshee gives evil something new to use

[hollow fulcrum]

homebrew: ||boffin stowaway 🔥🔥||

[chilly cedar]

Boffin Banshee is alright

It's cool in theory but in practice its a bit difficult

For Imp, it can't work in 7-9 player games because a starpass would turn the boffin into a Demon

Zombuul is lmao

And Fang Gu it actually can work but ye that's a lot of voting power

And it only works while the boffin is alive

It does have the upside of sounding really really fun

[late ingot]

this makes poisoning a confirmed banshee to frame someone as the boffin very funny

[coral jungle]

I love being outed evil once the Boffin dies!

[runic solstice]

Cool but has many problems

It gives evil more voting power so you need to be careful

And more importantly if the Boffin ability is at risk of going away then it can totally throw the game

Which is much trickier

If you can get around those then yeah by all means it's fun

[tulip ivy]

It’s a very precarious interaction

Super cool concept though

[tawny haven]

Become outed evil in 3 easy steps!

1. Get Boffin-Bamshee
2. Use the ability
3. Your Boffin fucking dies

It's a bit of a trap but it's fun

[edgy socket]

I feel like the boffin should generally not be dying in a circumstance where evil has an extra vote and strong motive to keep them alive

[stuck locust]

if the info points to them the info points to them

[tawny haven]

I'm convinced; banshee's replacing farmer on flesh and axo

[edgy socket]

fang gu

[tawny haven]

You heard me

[magic ferry]

Bamshee 🔥 🔥 🔥

[chilly cedar]

At the end of the day, the most important player to keep alive is the demon

Sometimes you gotta throw a Minion under the bus for that

[steady granite]

what this thread is forgetting to mention is that banshee is already +2 evil votes by default 😅

[runic solstice]

+1

There isn't a second extra vote

Remember, it's not an extra evil player, it's an evil player with a buffed vote

Making it weaker for evil than a real evil banshee

This difference is what allows The Phantom Detectives to not meaningfully break SoI except at 7p despite 3 "extra evils"

[coral jungle]

I think he means you can get +2 if you fool the Banshee, @runic solstice.

[runic solstice]

Oh lol

[steady granite]

yeah I was making a joke about how banshees are always wrong and vote with evil

[winter bobcat]

9/3: Pit Hag x Mastermind

[runic solstice]

Cool but not the healthiest

Making a good mm is epic

[spice ferry]

There’s some fun synergy here. The demon dies and should end the game but the pithag can extend it.

It’s a sharp coin toss

[runic solstice]

But pithag with death mod needs care

It can work just don't do, like, vortox or something

[spice ferry]

What’s the thing with Vortox here?

[runic solstice]

Pithag NEEDS a signal when it changes the demon type on a vortox script

[spice ferry]

Yeah. That signal is a final mastermind day 😎

[tawny haven]

I don't think it's great

It's really funny but not good to have on a script

[winter bobcat]

is it really any more deathmod than ET?

a homescript interaction

[edgy socket]

ET is loud and stops multiple nights of kills

[still sedge]

You’re a Moderator now!?!?!?

[edgy socket]

#server-announcements message

[spice ferry]

yeah.. so be careful. capiche!? /s

[frigid flower]

Tea Lady right there

[past brook]

Meh. Too Jank and annoying for my liking

[runic solstice]

Jank??? Say that again...

[tulip crane]

Hi

[winter bobcat]

No imp?

[runic solstice]

It doesn't feature every character on the script because it would be way too cluttered

This doesn't even have heretic

It's got the 4 characters that create the immortal demon plus atheist because it was just too perfect

[kind berry]

Flip the image upside down

Or 120° clockwise

[winter bobcat]

You also could honestly just swap out the bottom for heretic, (either red or blue could work); the wings are probably enough to signify vigor

[runic solstice]

Guys he doesn't know that this is a finished product and you can buy the quadjank merch on redbubble right now

[fringe mirage]

The vizier price tag, the vigor, the alchemist, and flip it for heretic

(i think thats the Athiest ring too?)

[runic solstice]

Also Boffin bubbles yeah

[tawny haven]

4/9: Fang Gu / Xaan

[edgy socket]

Pick a maximum of 2 of Fang Gu/Xaan/Drunk if you want to make a good script and not a bad one, but if you have exactly and only two of them, none of those configs are really the script sins people worry about

FG/Xaan is imo the least interesting of the set though

[past copper]

fang gu works with nothing ever

[spice ferry]

that's an opinion 😐

[coral jungle]

Amazing interaction. Anything that lets me as an ST put 0 outsiders in a Fang Gu game is a-ok in my book.

(This is a joke, my humor value is at 36%)

[tulip ivy]

What happens when your humour value is at 100%

[coral jungle]

I become a professional comedian

[weak ingot]

come on now y'all, 9 player fang gu xaan game with an additional 22 outsiders from a custom traveller

[fringe mirage]

9/5: Boffin x Athiest

(I’m not actually sure if that’s legal)

[steady granite]

it is legal

I stand by that if you're playing a script with boffin and atheist on it you should be prepared for this as a possibility

[fringe mirage]

It’s a very funny things since the Boffin copying Athiest setup shouldn’t technically work

But it probably does

Anyways, feel free to add about the actual interaction. Im curious to see the atmosphere here

[deft stirrup]

The way it works is that it doesn't affect setup and ST may cheat and if executed, good wins.

[runic solstice]

On their home script (quadjank), yeah do this sometimes, usually you don't want to do very much with it though

[past brook]

I think I’ve only seen it used as punishment for evil philosophers

[runic solstice]

Use it for like one thing and then let the game continue as it always would just with the Atheist wincon turned on

[late ingot]

does the gamefeel of boffin-atheist differ significantly from "plague doctor just died on a wizard script"?

that's my gut comparison but idt I've ever actually played boffin-atheist

I suppose that because the storyteller can be executed, the rule break is going to be much more subtle than wizard wishes tend to be

[steady granite]

if town discovers a rulebreak they will just instantly execute the st

[real heron]

I mean, the thing with Atheist in general is being an experienced enough ST to enable possible worlds for a while and then shut them to push town slightly towards an ST exe (at least that’s my understanding). I think with boffin-atheist, the rule break should be enough to create a mislead, but not enough to suggest an atheist ability is in play

But I’ve not run nor played a script with both boffin and atheist, so that is mostly based on assumption

[kind berry]

That’s an ability to give to the alchemist boffin, not to the actual boffin 😭

The downside is way bigger than the upside of hidden rule breaks

[hollow fulcrum]

consider that good can’t necessarily just kill the st because they don’t know if the boffin is still alive (assuming they backsolve that rule breaks had to happen in some way)

if they’re immediately blatant then yeah rip evil

[fringe mirage]

9/6: Preacher x Assassins

[runic solstice]

Preacher is a character that needs script support and this is not a way to do that

Outside of that the interaction isn't problematic so if you want you can have 1 bad preacher target on script as a treat

This works better with imp/lm because it means finding minions is more important. If there's an uncovered kill then the preacher knows the players they've chosen AREN'T an assassin that did that

It's also nice with gambler/acro for that same reason, they can't be a self killing assassin

[chilly cedar]

Preacher is best w stuff like Scarlet Woman but I think this is a fair interaction

The threat of Preacher makes decision making as Assassin more interesting

Because you are a OPG

Assassin is not that loud with the right script support so it passes that check too

Ruling people out as potential assassins is useful though

[steady granite]

preached spent assassin doesn't refresh it when the preacher dies right

[tawny haven]

it doesn't

[humble lantern]

#1362878489509892196 message :)

Imo it's a B-tier interaction. Neither great nor terrible

[coral jungle]

9/7 Al-Saahir x Scarlet Woman

[hollow fulcrum]

not a huge fan of alsaahir with things that change the number of each type they have to guess

[late ingot]

I think it works if there are other reasons the alsaahir would otherwise be too powerful

outed minions or one of clock/invest perhaps

[hollow fulcrum]

write good scripts and not bad ones

[late ingot]

so true

[past copper]

alsaahir works on exactly ride the cyclone

[late ingot]

to be clear this is less of an enthusiastic endorsement and more of an "if you must"

[real heron]

Yeah. I’m not really sure there’s a situation where having both in play is fine, while having only one in play is also fine (an example being the two with LoT, alsaahir without SW is super strong and SW without alsaahir is also super strong)

[edgy socket]

cc bad script confirmed

[runic solstice]

This goes into the bucket of "bad interaction but not in a way that I care about" for me

SW can change the evil character composition, and it's just not a safety net against alsaahir

They both water down the other's dynamic

But like. If a script wants both you can just put both

It's not the end of the world

I'm not gonna build around the interaction but if the script wants both separately then like. Okay

CC is a good example of this

[hollow fulcrum]

i was being deliberately reductive in my response to amy, but i was responding very specifically to her statement and not the combo itself

i don’t think sw should be deliberately used to nerf alsa when other things on script make it “too easy” for the alsa to guess

my take on the combo in general is that sw-alsa isn’t the end of the world by any stretch, it just makes a townsfolk that already kinda struggles to be useful a lot of the time have to struggle even harder

[tawny haven]

It's unideal but not scriptbreaking

[chilly cedar]

Its probably one of the "better" characters to pair with Alsaahir without making Alsaahir suck

But yeah I usually avoid characters that make Alsaahir guesses too niche/difficult

So this combo isn't one I'd use with my scripts

[weak ingot]

for what it's worth starpass guessing isn't all that difficult in comparison to the everything else that alsie can be sobbing in the corner about

sjkdksh starpass guessing. why did i think this was an imp and alsie prompt

[edgy socket]

Honestly easier than starpasses though

[chilly cedar]

I think so

[weak ingot]

oh yeah def

[chilly cedar]

You take up a minion slot for starpass++

[weak ingot]

it's like a single tear of sadness compared to a legion-fanggu-vigormortis-summoner script

[tawny haven]

pithag alsaahir 😢

[weak ingot]

someone should make a functioning alsadhir script

[past copper]

skissue

[tawny haven]

i'm someone

[past copper]

you must play ride the cyclone NOW

[tawny haven]

there are dozens of #1177633776378056784 stans, dozens!

[past copper]

ALSAAHIR LLEECH!!!

[tawny haven]

skissue

[weak ingot]

let the alsie be happy

[past copper]

why don’t you let me be happy and on my hater shit

[edgy socket]

Kenoboi and his 23 alts

[tawny haven]

cry about it

[weak ingot]

i actually don't care about alsie but it's my legal contract to defend it because i'm a lleech hater

[past copper]

i’m crying are you happy now

[tawny haven]

yes ^-^ now take one of harpy or vig off rhetoric harpy failure it's shit

[coral jungle]

He phased Miss Register out of his customs roster

So I'm not sure about that

[past copper]

then don’t RHFVH

run regular RHF

[spare hinge]

[9/8]

Fang Gu x Lunatic

[tulip sage]

i genuinely do not know how this interaction works

someone please tell me 😭

i am confounded

[late ingot]

on a Fang Gu script, you can repeatedly tell the Lunatic they've been Fang Gu jumped

[tawny haven]

eh

it's fine ig

[late ingot]

And the Fang Gu, in a Lunatic game, has a known out

[steady granite]

problem is that on fang gu scripts, outsiders want to hide, and the lunatic has a difficult time doing that

[real heron]

I mean, it can shift the meta towards the demon waits for the minions to talk to them, instead of the demon initiating discussion

But realistically that sorta thing just doesn’t happen lol

[steady granite]

what I mean by that is that when the lunatic talks to a minion, they will probably out as lunatic to them

[real heron]

Yeah that’s true

[tulip ivy]

I don’t like this interaction

However I’ve been told I need to be less of a hater

So go nuts

[wide portal]

something something hates fun

[kind berry]

Lepakon hates fun?

[runic solstice]

It's a weird one

It means that lunatics can never really play for good

Unless they die ig

Either you figure out you're the lunatic and can't out because it's a fang gu script or you don't figure it out and play for evil anyways

It also gives the fang gu a completely free jump which removes a ton of room for skill expression from good

I avoid this whenever I can

And it singlehandedly makes the script noticeably advanced

[hollow fulcrum]

i've played exactly one game (that i remember) with this combo which was on a solo-fang gu script where the philo tried to go lunatic so that the fang gu wouldn't have a free jump (they were the drunk)

[late ingot]

how often are living outsiders playing for good on fang gu scripts anyways?

[green fiber]

really funny, not always practically useful

[kind berry]

I hate that part, "yeah you are obviously the lunatic, but actually there's a chance that you are now actually evil so have fun" is the kind of things i don't like on BOTC

Special mention to that one game where Avery was the lunatic who got this, learned a marionette on n2, talked to the fang-gu that got snake-charmed, asked to that player if (marionette) was the marionette and lost because the new fang-gu jumped to her and didn't get away with accidentally outing demon to the snake-charmed player

Lunatic is my favorite townsfolk

[edgy socket]

Pretty often, lunatics included

Like some people play for the jump but some don't

And on customs you often see people forget about the fang gu lol

A large chunk of fg's balance is that it often jumps to outed outsiders and eats shit, lunatic tends to amplify this because in actual play the lunatic still outs frequently

[past copper]

this happened to me (i was drunk philo) it was based af

[hollow fulcrum]

wild that it happened twice

the player in my game was chum who i jumped to not realizing he had an infamous red curse

[late ingot]

I think I'm skewed by recent longtext Final Nail games LMAO

[edgy socket]

tbf in boffin-philosopher-amnesiac-juggler Dani outed Puzzlemaster to me d1 and I just went "hey you know this is a fang gu script right" "OH NO"

[late ingot]

iconic

anyways I don't have strong lunatic/fang gu opinions, but that's because I don't have strong lunatic opinions

[hollow fulcrum]

i did one worse the other day - i "outed" puzzlemaster in base 0 tpot as the huntsman

[tranquil shale]

dont let the hater haters get to you, hate your heart out

[hollow fulcrum]

i very quickly realized the three major problems with this decision

[runic solstice]

Not that often but it's important for a lunatic to play for good because it's a fundamental part of what makes lunatic lunatic

[late ingot]

yeah that's fair!

(frantically taking notes on what other groups do with outsiders on FG scripts)

[winter bobcat]

Could I reserve tomorrow's question? It's related to todays

[kind berry]

Tbf you can ask it now

[winter bobcat]

ok

[kind berry]

It's been 23h30 + no messages in 15+h

[winter bobcat]

[9/9]: Fang Gu x Librarian

Either on opposite sides or via Boffin granting

[steady granite]

im about as much of a fan of this as i am of fang gu lunatic

which is not a lot

outing outsiders in fang gu games is kinda eh

and librarian benefits by confirming someone as good and forcing the demon to want to kill them

or trying ot hide the confirmation as much as possible so they don't die

if that player is suddenly the demon, the librarian becomes much less interesting imo

its then a guessing game if this player who you know is an outsider is the new fang gu or not

also outsiders like lying on fang gu scripts which will make the librarian think their info is wrong

[late ingot]

I think this is interesting if everyone (scriptbuilder included) is aware the interaction is on script, but it seems like a giant trap for newer players

[runic solstice]

Who cares about balance, fun is more important

Like I think this is actually a good balance point for librarian and for fang gu

But it's just

Not at all fun imo

It's a hellzone for the outsider, it's a hellzone for the fang gu, the lib is incentivized to shut up and then catch the outsider later on as a gotcha except with no counterplay

[edgy socket]

Like most slightly weird interactions, this is a slightly weird thing that is also not a script sin and doesn't require spiralling about how bad it is

However, it's towards the more weird end of those

It depends decently on the script's demon count (it's way less significant on a 4 demon script than a 2 demon one)

I don't think it produces actively unfun outcomes in any way not also true of Dreamer (which has "hunting for hidden outsiders" as an intentional major strategy and is more likely to actively interfere with someone's plans than Librarian)

(I do however think that within SnV's dynamic of many roles being particularly strong or weak against different demons, Dreamer is strongest in Fang Gu)

[runic solstice]

Dreamer has to find the answer, librarian is told it outright

Dreamer is also each night which allows it to keep gathering info after the outsider has been jumped

Which means it can still be a confirmation role and not diet ysk sage

SnV is also a context where more things are possible than your average script

[steady granite]

For a second I thought you were saying the exact opposite of what you actually were and I was gonna be like huh

[edgy socket]

ysk sagehystrex describe 'awkward in some gamestates' interactions proportionately challenge

[runic solstice]

Vati learn how to read challenge

I said diet for a reason

[edgy socket]

Sorry I'm an Outsider which specifically means according to Librarian lore I can't read

Anyway my occultist info says hystrex is always wrong

[runic solstice]

I thought you were a demon

Ah Occultist ok

[edgy socket]

d̶̛̽̋̈ȏ̶̋̎͒n̶̒͛͂̓'̷̄̍̇̇t̶̾͗̅͝ ̵͌̈́͊͒worr̎̈́y̵͆̒̈͘ ̸̎̐̽̎á̶̫̲b̵̅͊͂͘o̵ut̃͆͋ ̴̅̃̈͝it

[late ingot]

that's the one real fact of the game

[runic solstice]

Ah so you're nwc Draconis so you're several characters at once

[edgy socket]

I was going for vigor -1 but that also works

[winter bobcat]

Does it change if the librarian sees a damsel?

[steady granite]

I don’t think so

I don’t think it really matters what outsider is seen by the librarian

[still sedge]

The implication that VI can read

[winter bobcat]

VI vibe reads

Like vibe coders

[tawny haven]

10/9: Imp x Organ Grinder

[hollow fulcrum]

cute

[fringe mirage]

I kinda like it.

It’s another reason for OG ability to turn off and Imp is a good safety net on the Demon side

[late ingot]

Every day the OG ability is proof the Imp hasn't starpassed to the OG, which is fun!

and turning off the OG ability voluntarily allows evil to frame either the OG's execution or a starpass

Framing a starpass often implies that there existed a minion more trusted than the Imp, which can confound worldbuilding in some fun ways too

[green fiber]

included Organ Grinder 0/10 interaction

[runic solstice]

I don't think this is fun I think this is evil being forced to shoot themself in the foot one way or another

It's definitely a LOT better with new og than old

But like. Let evil use their abilities without solving the game for good pls

The presence of an organ grinder on an imp script outside of getting starpassed is entirely fine, there's some cool socials there

[late ingot]

fair, I suppose I should clarify that it's interesting in a good-sided way

[frigid flower]

Organ grinder and plague doctor is funny as hell

[stuck locust]

also if OG is on script the other minions are (probably) gonna be loud too

so it's imp with all loud minions

[runic solstice]

Exactly

[frigid flower]

What are the most quiet minions there are?

(not depending on script)

[summer adder]

poisoner, scarlet woman, boffin, marionette, mezepheles, spy, and (mechanically) goblin

[runic solstice]

https://hystrex.substack.com/p/volume-in-botc?

[late ingot]

Spy, Scarlet, Marionette are the quietest 3 imo

[runic solstice]

It's been said but here's the relevant snippet from the post

[stuck locust]

spy can be loud because of kills

[late ingot]

with lots of others minions being plausibly completely silent too

[runic solstice]

That's not the spy being loud that's the demon acting differently

But, it can still be a clue that it's a spy game

Ultimately evil can choose to not do that so like it's fine

[stuck locust]

same with Mez, Goblin, Poisoner etc.

it's just Amy was trying to pick the quietest 3

[runic solstice]

Fair

It's worth also mentioning summoner and mastermind which are in the weirdest bracket of "completely silent and also quite loud"

[late ingot]

I forgor some minions when thinking of minions lmao, it's not the objectively quietest 3 or anything

[weak ingot]

All minions can be loud on the right script

[late ingot]

But I'd struggle to build a script where any of those 3 are very loud

[runic solstice]

Yeah that's totally fine

[weak ingot]

it's just the volume level

[summer adder]

it was specified "not depending on the script"

[runic solstice]

You'll probably want quiet demons if you have loud minions (look at SnV) but loud minions are fine yeah

[weak ingot]

understood

[fringe mirage]

it'll be really interesting once we see how Tomb works

like im sure you can create a few theories, but we really dont have enough info to make solid conclusions

[runic solstice]

My theory is the new character type is some kind of hidden game modifier (unannounced fabled) and those provide the omod and misinfo on the script

Oh yeah there's absolutely no solid conclusion in here

But I think that 1 that would be a great character type for botc to have 2 it would work really well on TT

[fringe mirage]

Yeah. TT is interesting because we have heavy reason to suspect loud Minions & loud Demons. or at least those who are loud when they act

So even in a low info town, the question of o-mod and misinfo is still out there

[chilly cedar]

imo outsider mod should be connected to the quiestest part of the script

if demons and minions are loud

it follows that the townsfolk and outsiders should be where the o-mod is

[frigid flower]

Has exorcist leviathan been talked before?

[runic solstice]

It'll just have 4 balloonists and a [-1 Outsider] townsfolk (Steve told me)

[fringe mirage]

the outsider who modifies the Outsider count

[chilly cedar]

hermit

[fringe mirage]

True...

[runic solstice]

I mean genuinely maybe

[chilly cedar]

it exists

[fringe mirage]

i forgot we offically had hermit

[chilly cedar]

so i cannot rule it out

[fringe mirage]

Hermit and like, a few O-modtf.

Maybe with like, an O-Mod Minion who stays quiet At First

[runic solstice]

Going off BMR and the exe survival tf I'd expect about 4

[fringe mirage]

I think i get taht but could you clarify that?

Like 1 Minion who does a thing and 4 confounds?

[runic solstice]

But also balloonist is poopy garbage on the tomb because it learns that a player is in the game and then hecking dies

[runic solstice]

4 Townsfolk with omod attached

[hollow fulcrum]

i misread poopy garbage as poppy grower

[frigid flower]

Hello huntsman

[runic solstice]

Oh don't worry poppy is worse

[fringe mirage]

If we had like Hermit, 1-2 O-Mod TF, and maybe a Minion, that could be a thing

[chilly cedar]

The upside of townsfolk with outsider mod attatched

[runic solstice]

Anubis real

[chilly cedar]

Is that bluffing said townsfolk also alters your idea of how many outsiders are in play

[runic solstice]

Oh and then in addition to hermit one of the outsiders is gonna be Drunk 2 the sequel

[chilly cedar]

It's actually a bit like what I found in my teensy script Blossoms in Twilight in a way

[fringe mirage]

Butterfly lands

or we're doing Sycophant

[runic solstice]

SYCO TOMB 🔥🔥🔥

[chilly cedar]

Basically the gimmick is that the good team have characters which get information but mess with others informatin

[runic solstice]

Syco and psycho sharing a homescript would be deeply funny

[chilly cedar]

But they turn out to be very potent bluffs for evil

[fringe mirage]

Next Hystrex homebrew project confirmed :)

[runic solstice]

There's so many scripts I gotta write

[chilly cedar]

Like, if you bluff a Towsnfolk which reverses other people's info, then you can have good players completely misinterpret what info they are getting

[fringe mirage]

Yea. Based on the info BMR comments

[chilly cedar]

I think its similar to Townsfolk Outsider mod

[runic solstice]

Somewhat yeah

[chilly cedar]

Bluffing them and then saying 'hey there can't be more than 2 Outsiders in play because I'm the Razzledazzle!'

Is gonna be a thing

[fringe mirage]

Iirc, Autumn created Blossoms of Twilight based on something that suggested GoS TF would interfer with each other, kinda like BMR TF affect the death landscape

[chilly cedar]

Yeah, someone said that Garden of Sin is a bit like BMR but from a Storyteller point of view, but not a player's.

Or something like that

It made me want to try and create something of that sort... the issue is that making a script like that also causes people's brains to slowly turn to mush if you're not careful

Making something intuitive is real challenging

but

Anyway, Organ Grinder Imp. It's okay I'm sure

It's fine

[fringe mirage]

Imp OG seems more like an incedential interaction. Like, you'd never build for it the way you would a great intereaction

But its notbad

[chilly cedar]

I think the change to Organ Grinder does make it better

[fringe mirage]

(actually I guess people have built for it)

[chilly cedar]

Of course

I think in skilled hands Organ Grinder Imp can work well to frame a starpass

But

I do not think this is a special strength

Compared to Imp on Trouble Brewing, where the minions are completely silent, and therefore any death can be framed as a starpass

Organ Grinder working confirms deaths at night to be not starpasses

(In a 7-9 player game.)

And yes, the framing argument is cool, but it requires very good coordination between the Demon and Organ Grinder

The Imp needs to kill a frame on the night the Organ Grinder turns off

Definitely possible, we have Imp Poisoner

But it isn't as easy as I think its made out to be

[vale frigate]

Can I see the script?

[chilly cedar]

sure

[winter bobcat]

Is mirrorwraith intended to always be able to swap back and forth indefinitely?

(or with other characters if you change the new mirrorwraith think char)

[chilly cedar]

once

this script is a tad outdated

[vale frigate]

isn't conductor really beneficial?

its like Gambler

how is that an outsider

especially on a mono-demon script

[chilly cedar]

they don't choose a player that they guess

they just have to guess in the dark an unknown player's character

and hypno/masque can mess with it

and they mess with everyone else's ability because they are causing them to misreg

[steady granite]

i would need clarificaiton for how like all of these characters are run lol

[runic solstice]

Oh but it's the same character the whole game?

That's not clear as is

[chilly cedar]

yee it's the same character

Like I do see how some things about these characters are unclear

But conductor would be really really long, and it does say what it does

but ye, nothing is final!

[coral jungle]

So here's one that is probably quite horrible.

9/11 Spy x Engineer

[steady granite]

what makes this so bad

[runic solstice]

Idk about horrible but I don't see a script that's a good environment for both of these at once

[steady granite]

the main benefit of spy is being in play the whole game

so i see why putting it in play halfway through isnt great for evil

but at least it does something

[fringe mirage]

Also I do have an interaction I might do tomorrow if I can

[runic solstice]

Holding the engineer pick past d1 might mean evil has the grim anyway despite changing out of spy which is. I mean nice for evil I guess

[still sedge]

you can misreg spy to engineer

[fringe mirage]

they might forget it in person

[still sedge]

to give them a good fuck you

peak interaction

[steady granite]

i’m choosing to ignore bad st decisions for my judgement on these interactions

[runic solstice]

I think (due to timezones?) we haven't really been sticking to 1 per day so uhhh wait a reasonable number of hours I think

[still sedge]

this is a bad ST interaction?

[runic solstice]

It's not great no

[still sedge]

damn

well thank god you told me before I did it

[steady granite]

oh i thought you were presenting it as if it was

it’s not like awful imo

it’s not something i would do probably

[coral jungle]

Everything's interaction with Engineer is bad

[steady granite]

well thats just not true

but whjat makes spy worse than anything else

[still sedge]

untrue

sentinel works very well with engineer

[steady granite]

engineer is a bad character because it's difficult to build a script where all of its choices are meaningful, not because all minions work badly with it

[coral jungle]

Okay, it's a slight exaggeration. But yeah it's nearly impossible to build an evil team that engineer works with

[still sedge]

be TPOT

[tawny haven]

midnight oasis 😌

[late ingot]

I don't think Spy and Engineer inherently have problems together, but I'm not sure we have a suite of similarly quiet, similarly threatening minions

you need hatter/atheist/minion mod to support minions of different volume with engineer (and even then, you need to be a better script builder than I can comment on), so that means most spy/engineer scripts will want quiet minions

and most quiet minions are just "yeah I'd rather have a spy instead"

[runic solstice]

Hatter only helps situationally, atheist doesn't help imo

For me I'm usually making a spy because it's super weak on most scripts

On TB it can become the demon after registering as good so that's strong and I'm more likely to make a SW (assuming baron is banned)

But the average spy script I see has spy not really able to help evil that much

It works great with imp, it works great with Typhon

It works with LM but it's kinda an overcorrection

Anything else is situationally useful at best

The grim is nice but if that's all you're using a spy for I'd consider one of Widow or wraith instead

[late ingot]

my understanding of midnight oasis is that the atheist helps with differing volumes, is there something else there?

[runic solstice]

Atheist fundamentally can't be loadbearing

If just doesn't work

Because if you're in the world that's otherwise impossible you kill the st and win

[coral jungle]

I'd say spy is stronger because it's silent. Widow and Wraith are far louder and 9/10 I'd rather have hard-to-trace misreg

[viscid hazel]

Also learning the grim later on in the game is diminishing returns compared to knowing it night 1 imo

[late ingot]

and misregistering later is also usually weaker given that a lot of information is front loaded

[hollow fulcrum]

i’d rather poison a good player midgame than start registering as good after all the important info has already gone off

spy is usually stronger but it needs the right script and to be in from the start

[coral jungle]

Oh yeah, in this context I absolutely want a Widow or Wraith. But in general I'd usually prefer Spy

[late ingot]

I think, with the current suite of released characters, engineer x anything is going to be "idk how to make this work"

[spare hinge]

we need like 15 more engi jinxes

"If the Engineer creates a Pukka, the Pukka acts twice tonight."

[late ingot]

I think we need a decent set of engi jinxes and quite a few new minions at various volumes

[runic solstice]

Can we have more widow pings 🥺

[late ingot]

Engineer as a "trust me bro, this is the type of misregistration we have" seems so fun

[runic solstice]

Or do I gotta keep making them myself

[vale frigate]

just homebrew them

[runic solstice]

Engineer gos no way

[vale frigate]

:p

does engineer want loud or quiet minions?

[late ingot]

Tpot has it with loud, somewhat unkillable minions (psycho, boom)

I've tried to script with a wizard/Pois/Mez/boffin suite, but making the engineer not choose the boffin is difficult

maybe I'll toss boffin + hag and add scarlet

[vale frigate]

add alchemist

yeah idk

some boffin abilities can be strong

[late ingot]

yeah but then you have a script with 2 viable alch abilities

for the vanilla alch

alch mez and alch Pois suck ass

[vale frigate]

alch pois is kinda like a demon finder

[late ingot]

yeah and I don't want that 😭

[coral jungle]

I make a Pukka n1 to get a kill before D1 and prove myself

[late ingot]

Oh wait I discounted scarlet bc shab

ugh yeah fuck engineer

[vale frigate]

if engineer creates a Pukka after day 1

[fringe mirage]

Y’know what, now’s as good a time as any

9/12: Village Idiot x Harpy

[tawny haven]

fun!!!

[late ingot]

VI is good harpy support! it's a common enough claim and an easy way to push on your target day 1

And vice-versa: "I have a VI evil ping on me but I think they're just harpy-mad" is a banger defense

[coral jungle]

What an amazing interaction. Harpy is one of my favorite minions and VI is a really good way to support their shenanigans. And anything that gives good incentive to bluff VI is great in my book.

[late ingot]

I'm trying to find a way to start phrasing this whenever madness gets talked about, but a good setting for madness (in both playgroup and script terms) is where cere/harpy-mad players are often mistaken as genuine and non-cere/harpy-mad players are sometimes mistaken as affected.

[steady granite]

YAY VILLAGE IDIOT

this is a good interaction

[late ingot]

and this interaction really lets players 🤨 at any VIs claiming to have gotten an Evil ping N1

[runic solstice]

Before I knew things about upcoming scripts I assumed this was a homescript interaction

It's really good

A little contrived, but that's not so bad

VI is one of the few ways to know with relative certainty that a particular player is evil via a single piece of info

And vi def wants to stay alive to get more info so there's incentive to hold madness

VI also by design creates a certain level of friction between the VI claims which can also be leveraged for madness

And it's very easy for a player to look mad when they're not

AND which VI claims are evil is super important, if you solve that wrong the info is often completely nullified