Star's Edge

[floral isle]

A tough puzzle of both instinct and reasoning, featuring the Hermit and Atheist, all misinformation, sparing misregistration, comes entirely from the Drunk ability.

Current Script: #1383153598770184252 message
Botc Scripts: https://www.botcscripts.com/script/7649 (favourite it if you like the script!)
ST Recommendations: Soon
Short Story: Soon

Blurb

"Upon the shining mountain which reaches the astral heavens, a lighthouse guiding voyage to the divine has supposedly bottled a star. Within it lays the child of the above, our saviour... so they claim."

Good will need to work through their information carefully, sorting out what information must be wrong, and why. They, despite all evidence to contrary, may need to take a leap of faith on if a player is good.

Evil will need to carefully add their own misinformation into the mix, pointing fingers at possible Hermits or Drunks, and convince good that too little or too many exist.

This is... Star's Edge

Star's Edge

Star's Edge is my 2nd main go at a long term scripting project. In sharp contrast to the intense storm that is The Passage of Time, Star's Edge is calmer waters. Here, the puzzle is the star of the show, having a focus on having difficult to parse worlds, but ultimately, with enough time, a solution can reveal itself.

Most characters receive some sort of information, but there's many reasons for it be wrong: but each reason, has further implications on the gamestate. If someone is registering as evil because they are the Hermit, their information should be wrong too. If someone is the Drunk and there's two face up outsiders, then everyone's information must be good or the outsiders are lying.

The information landscape may resemble Trouble Brewing, but things are isolated to specific players, and bad information cannot move. Townsfolk work to limit worlds further and further, until either none remain and the truth is revealed, or the infinite possibilities remain open and the expanse consumes everything.

Star's Edge, whilst having an Atheist is intended to be able to be used an Atheist introduction script. The complexities of the character are softened from the player perspective, and it primarily relies on the Storyteller, who themselves can take a relaxed approach to simulating a real game. It is still a tough job, and players should be very experienced before playing this, but I'd recommend this script before TPOT even. Bluffing Atheist is simplified by the completely sane 5 way interaction of PD-Boom-Atheist-Hermit-Drunk allowing evil to feel safer bluffing the character, as the Atheist becomes a much riskier execution. The script plays like a beefed up version of Trouble Brewing, and I'd rate it as Intermediate-Advanced for players, and Advanced-Expert for Storytellers.

Storytellers! Read this!

Either before the game or if players ask about the PD/Boom jinx with the Hermit/Drunk/PD combo, I recommend ruling this as a Hermit clash written as "The Hermit may only trigger the Boomdandy ability if they think they are the Atheist"... or alternatively, tell your players to trust you're not a bad Storyteller, as they already trusted you enough to run Atheist.

Additionally, this script is built for Subtle Atheist. Choose an "evil team" to frame, and get framing. You have done a great job if you convince good that there is no Atheist in play and yet the players still beat you by their own instincts and reasoning. That's peak Clocktower.

[rare talon]

I’m gonna be honest two arbitrary drunks kinda scares me but if anyone can pull it off it’ll be you

I think it’ll play like TB but on expert mode

[floral isle]

kind of the intent! (without being actually TB but on expert mode)

i want it to feel directional but primarily social

Hermit/Drunk is a combo that immediately leans into social games, and then Athiest hammers that further. There's needs to be information suggests viable evil teams and configurations that good can feasibly work together to eliminate.

Imo the main interaction that excites me is the 5 way interaction of Hermit/Drunk/Pd/Atheist/Boom.

Executing the Athiest now always feels like an end game act you do

[rare talon]

I think in that way you nailed it then

[floral isle]

yippee!!

[rare talon]

I mean my worry is always with the drunks but that’s my issue on every drunk script

[floral isle]

I think good has tools to eliminate possible Drunks/Hermits but it may need more

Hard to tell, this is very new ground

(rn I'm thinking of WW)

also this is the first Atheist script I've made I'm actually relatively happy with because it feels like it has a vision and isn't just "cool characters + atheist"

if I change out anything it'd be FT bc its by far the weakest character to be on the script (Lil Monsta)

I think Dreamer does its job better but I wanted some cross referencing

[rare talon]

FT is kinda rough here yeah

Most demon finders are with LM though

Savant maybe? It’s generic but always works

[floral isle]

I think Savant has enough to do here that it can go here

World breaking is something the script needs a bit more of I think

[rare talon]

Cult Leader??????

[floral isle]

Unironically have considered it lol

I think it has some good use here but I need a bit more convincing I think

It can signal evil players and it's interesting with a math

Because if the Cult Leader changes to evil and the math number ticks up you have a Recluse ability by the Cult Leader

Possibly ofc

Balloonist is likely the 2nd weakest character here. I think having the possibility of +2 outsiders at all here is scary

I think it adds flexibility with the count but from a player pov it's a very difficult thing to deal with

Maybe it's fine but obviously gotta brain storm a bit

[rare talon]

Yeah I’d need to think about it

Thoughts on Virgin?

[floral isle]

I had it here for a while!! I think I like it

I replaced it for Town Crier because I thought the script could use confirmation of not Hermit but I keep going back and forth on it

Because confirming someone is a Townsfolk is super strong here

[rare talon]

That’s so understandable

It’s really strong info

I’m wondering if something softer helps

It’s just a matter of what

[floral isle]

Yeah but I do think it's still helpful because evil can leverage it with Spy

They can point at weird worlds with it

Like going "whoa I was the Recluse how'd that happen!!"

Or using the confirmation to point at Hermits

On their own team

[rare talon]

Cerenovus almost helps in a way

[floral isle]

Yeah honestly Cerenovus and Virgin is pretty fun

And since it's an Atheist script, a Virgin can say they weren't the virgin so it's an Athiest game to get out of the hell zone

The virgin cerenovus hell zone was one reason I moved away but with Atheist here it's probably fine tbh

[rare talon]

Oh forgot atheist allows that

Hm

Eh it’s still kind of hell zoney

Actually no it’s fine

[floral isle]

They can claim like, Ravenkeeper or a townsfolk baiting a virgin nom to see if someone was good

[rare talon]

Yeah that’s true

Hm maybe it’s okay here

[floral isle]

It's a battle between town crier and virgin so we'll see

[rare talon]

But anyways this is very solid

[floral isle]

yooo!!

[floral isle]

also the confidence of "if anyone can make it work it's you" did genuinely make me very happy so thank you for that lol

I'm not sure I'm that capable especially because it's definitely a hard challenge but it was super nice to hear :)

[rare talon]

Oh you’re very capable

I was thinking about this when I saw it and I realize like all of your scripts are really solid from a theory perspective and I really value that in scripts

You’ve nailed the premise of taking an idea and building on it

And the scripts are solid too

You’re a visionary I’d say

[floral isle]

thank you so much!! this does mean alot too because I consider you an extremely strong script builder and hold alot of respect for you in that area

The general super engaged community here tends to be extremely strong script builders and I always felt like I was on the weaker side (primarily because I have so many script concepts I end up abandoning because they're bad, so that probably skews self perception a tad bit)

[rare talon]

To be fair I don’t see the scripts that don’t work

And you don’t see all my failures either

[rare talon]

Thank you!

[floral isle]

true!! One amusing thing of my failed scripts is that every legion script I try to build becomes Dusk which is very funny

[rare talon]

I’m in this picture and I don’t like it

I have a dusk like but it’s not crazy enough lol

It’s kind of tame and I think I just don’t have the characters for it

Which is so unfortunate

[floral isle]

I was really excited by the Heretic/Hermit interaction and tried to build a script from that and it also became Dusk so I just went "why don't I just replace Lunatic on Dusk with Hermit at this point" 😭

it does speak to Dusks strength as a script that it's the crab that all MHD likes slowly evolve into

anyways current script

[rare talon]

I think we just need more things to make MHD likes that aren’t dusk because dusk kinda has everything

Which is unfortunate but understandable for now

[floral isle]

yeah, can't wait for ||Thinker Stinker|| since that unironically seems to be an important tool for making an MHD-like flexible

[rare talon]

Honestly yeah

It’s way more important than I thought it would be

Script change was solid

[floral isle]

i also really am excited about Preacher here

abnormals from the "No Ability" thing is situational unless it hits the Cerenovus which is loud if it goes away anyways, so Math + Preacher doesn't end up extremely strong

[rare talon]

Oh yeah math

Math is kinda cool here actually

Might be strong but it’s fine

Preacher is cool

[floral isle]

i think math would become too absurd if it wasn't for the fact there can be a hidden recluse ability

its just strong enough to be a power role here whilst being weak enough to not overpower the script

[rare talon]

Hidden recluse I think holds math together here

For the same reason I think math is necessary here

[floral isle]

yeah its both a reason it needs to be here and the reason its not gamebreakingly strong

cool interaction

[rare talon]

Yeah it’s kinda cool

I’m not sure how this will play out since it’s kind of new territory

But ready for testing

[floral isle]

I imagine it'll be similar to how ||Amaniti|| + Math will feel

[rare talon]

Oh yeah lol

That’s kinda silly actually

Yeah I think is ready to test I think

[lunar raptor]

script looks very interesting, very cool

[floral isle]

yippee!!

[floral isle]

i didn't take out FT so I might drop in the Town Crier

that or Washerwoman

yeah I changed FT for WW

the main thing from here is Pixie

I think Pixie is useful still but it might be too much confirmation?

although Pixie is a good way of getting another instance of WW/Librarian/Investigator knowledge again which I think is important here too

[fringe trail]

Killing the Hermit first every night

[floral isle]

then good doesn't need to deal with any misinformation

if you want to kill the Hermit you want to do it later on once it's poisoned the well

[floral isle]

Currently thinking about Fisherman here

I'm not sure what it has to do

I'm thinking of subbing in Empath for it

or Town Crier

I intend to also run this for the first time tomorrow

so hopefully I get some good feedback!

[floral isle]

I'm also still not sold entirely on Pixie here

[lunar raptor]

idea: baron instead of godfather for the PD/Baron jinx - extra funny with Hermit and a fun thing to fake with Atheist

[floral isle]

I like Pixie for giving evil more space in Lil' Monsta and confirming Townsfolk but the bags feel weird with Pixie

[floral isle]

yeah I've been considering Baron but Ojo works nicely with Godfather and loses a bit of purpose without them

And there's not many other good Demons to put in here

this script has the opposite problem of Passage of Time

there's too many things I think work on it

[floral isle]

RN my candidates for changes before todays playtest is Fish ---> Seamstress and Pixie ---> Empath

i think the script needed more direct evil pings to push on. Town Crier has too many things that fuck with it but also no interesting tension on the side of good (no witch to cause good to hesitate)

Seamstress can control its information, and has synergetic information with Empath/Investigator whilst being susceptible to accidentally hiting a Recluse or Hermit

(but also Pixie still makes sense here and I kinda feel like I'm only putting Seamstress on bc its a OPG character and the script would have none otherwise)

fuck it we ball

pixie gaming

this is whats going to be playtested:

[rare talon]

Ooh playtesting

[floral isle]

will report back on player feedback then start stat tracking 🫡

[floral isle]

ok so both games ended d2

https://tenor.com/view/been-through-war-gif-14804550298263605778

they were good wins

[lunar raptor]

‼️

[floral isle]

the demon was randomly nominated d2 game 1 and game 2 it was lil monsta and the baby holder was in an investigator ping

[floral isle]

Ojo : W/1 - L/1 0% - W/L 50%
Imp : W/0 - L/0 0% - W/L 0%
Lil' Monsta : W/0 - L/1 - W/L 0%
Atheist : W/1 - L/0 - W/L 100%

[floral isle]

the fancy version made with my custom pdf generator. is this starry art cool for the banner + back

the back will be the back of the sheet irl

[rare talon]

Wtf this is gorgeous

[floral isle]

ty!! at some point i'm planning to publicly release the project but it needs quite a bit of tweaks to become user friendly (it'd also come without official TPI assets for obvious reasons, people would need to provide that themselves)

[rare talon]

Ah right yeah

[floral isle]

(which tbh you can just take from the wiki and official app)

i used to hand do these but obviously it became extremely obnoxious to spend 2 hours on a script that our group would maybe play once

[rare talon]

That’s so relatable

[floral isle]

also one time i offered to make a bunch of these for people at GLCV and I legitimately could not do the 1 i was asked to do bc it was homebrew and would take 5 hours, so if I just make the project people can do the set up themselves then make official adjacent scripts!!

[rare talon]

5 hours is crazy

I couldn’t do that

[floral isle]

yeah but i probably would have if i had time, the fact i didnt have time (+ seeing better designs compared to my old one at GLCV proper) inspired me to actually work on a PDF generator tool

it doesn't yet support certain stuff (like Bootlegger rules) so its not public use quite yet although if anyone ever needs one done you can just ask and I'll produce one

[rare talon]

Ooh good to know

[floral isle]

anyways here's the pdf + json

https://botc-scripts.azurewebsites.net/script/7649

the script is also now on botc-scripts!!

[floral isle]

ok so

Viva la Sam ran this on stream recently and whilst I didn't get to watch the full game, one thing I saw as feedback when skipping to the end to hear a post game discussion is that people felt somewhat negative about the Hermit/Pd/Drunk/Boomdandy interaction

It was about 1 person in the game I saw mention it (saying it was "rude" to do that lol) and 1 chatter said they felt like there was just too many interactions in that set

My main response to this has primarily been "if you can't trust your storyteller to run that in a fun way, you can't trust them to run an Atheist game."

however this is not exactly something is 100% super obvious from a player pov so I'm not discounting it entirely

I know when I have run this script I make it clear that I only would detonate the Hermit if they saw the Atheist token as that is the intent of that interaction

Part of me feels like adding a Bootlegger rule as a clarification for that Hermit Drunk/PD clash

Because players worrying about ST fiat is a completely reasonable position (even if you trust your ST, the possibility makes it hard to feel like executing is stress-free)

It's hard because I feel like anyone who runs this would have atleast read the accompanying "hey here's the intent of the script!"

i should probably watch the full game at some point but knowing that (despite some players saying they had fun) that there's criticism of the script from people who don't know who wrote it and don't need to present criticism in a nice or cordial way does mean it'll be a tad bit stressful lol

[floral isle]

now is a darling to cut...

the plague doctor...

i don't want to but I'm thinking about it

because boom/cere already provide good reasons to not auto-execute the Atheist

Hermit/Drunk/Recluse still produces a play pattern of making a Hermit Atheist believe its Atheist more due to the evil pings on them

And getting rid of it means people stop worrying about ST fiat with Hermit/PD/Boom

However

i really like it

so i dont wanna change it

😭

[floral isle]

Ok!!

Ignore how bad my organisation was I was trying new methods and it kinda didn't work great

1st game was an Atheist game. Half the good team were convinced the Atheist were the Demon. The other half believed them. My evil team frame was the Empath and Virgin, so the Atheist, Librarian and Recluse became the last demon candidates.

The good team won though! Very fun game

The 2nd game was a D2 Boomdandy explosion, and a Clockmaker 1 in the Savant info heavily implicated the Librarian...

[rare talon]

I keep forgetting the carousel exists

This is cool

[floral isle]

these are handmade!!

[rare talon]

Oh even better

I couldn’t tell

[floral isle]

hehehe thank you

It took months of work and I'm happy on how close I got them

But I'll have the real things soon enough...

[floral isle]

Something I genuinely have come to appreciate from this script now is that Atheist is super fun when ran in a puzzley way

the ability to solve for locational misinformation means that good actually has plenty of ways to solve for evil teams, whilst keeping it largely social.

It ends up in an interesting situation where if you run Atheist as a puzzle box first, and not a shennanigans character, it feels, unironically, like peak clocktower

A leap of faith into the unknown

Atheist games, for me, have always felt too silly, that you need to be in a specific mood for them to be fun because you expect weird shit to happen and for you to go "oh finally, everyone now knows its Atheist bc the Storyteller finally decided to reveal it"

If you as a Storyteller never choose to properly reveal your hand so overtly, so massively, and simply leave crumbs for the players to discover, you find that they are still entirely capable of figuring you out

They find trust in each other and work together to kill the demon candidates, and even then, they aren't entirely sure

There was 4 votes on the Atheist in F4, and 5 on me

nailbitingly close

good had fun, they were still suspicious of each other, and they cheered when they executed me and won

some players were convinced they had lost

the Atheist, for a moment themselves, thought themselves possibly a Drunk...

peak.

[lunar raptor]

i really wanna try this script but also it looks so scary

and like finding a good ST for it and players that don't immediately hate the atheist...

surely at glc8 🔥

[floral isle]

this is definitely a script you need an ST you trust and players who are willing to trust the ST enough

the PD-Boomdandy jinx combined with the Drunk is enough to concern players with ST trust issues

Luckily, my players absolutely trust me enough to run it

and I've even had compliments from them on it that I can share to stroke my ego further

so i will (they said that the Atheist games I run are some of their favourite games they've played)

[lunar raptor]

thinking about it i don't think i've ever actually had a good atheist game lol. i've played in like, 2, and neither were particularly STed that well

[floral isle]

it has changed my mind on Atheist quite a bit to the point I do think that it can absolutely be "just a character on the script" as long as your ST wants to make it feel puzzlely

its game warping in the same way a Wizard can be... but it should be more so game warping in the same way that a Vortox is

So to be clear, I think Atheist from a player pov should feel intuitive and cool. For an ST, it is absolutely a massive ask to run one

[floral isle]

I can believe it

The last game Atheist game I played was fun but it felt like

the ST was worried we wouldn't figure it out

And it didn't feel like a clocktower game

We were all Lunatic Legion (i know)

But the thing is

The game actually started very cool with the Atheist

Because there was 1 big breadcrumb

1. a good player we saw was claiming Atheist. There was 4 good players in a 2 minion game, so obviously, our Outsider.
2. There was a Choirboy claim... but we never learnt a King.

But then the ST worried we wouldn't figure it out and started pit hagging people

[lunar raptor]

oh no

[floral isle]

yeah

it was a very cool game then it was just like "yeah its an Atheist game"

when talking to the Choirboy I was like

"...is this an Atheist game?"

and it felt cool

there was a bit of paranoia

obviously we as Lunatics knew we'd always win by voting out the ST

but if the ST chose to frame us as Legion

then we actually did need to convince 1 of those players its sincerely an Atheist game

so we were still playing Legion, but to help good win

Such a cool puzzlebox there

Was kinda sad to see it just fizzle

[lunar raptor]

the one atheist game i remember was much worse overall cause the ST decided to let the lunatic kazali make minions, and then gave them a win-con

but is a doomed atheist game worse or one that doesn't meet its potential?

philosophy

[floral isle]

doomed atheist game

the 2nd is still fun

personally i think "secret mission" Atheist games are not fun

I think in a "silly" environment it is

but its not a great tool to use regularly

it's a small screwdriver you use very rarely bc they rarely make screws that size

I'd almost always rather, just genuinely task the Atheist with convincing people its an Atheist game

That's what makes it fun!!

[floral isle]

Game of Star's Edge at a convention I played in!

I was the investigator

Who misremembered my pings

But it was ok we just thought it was a Recluse ping

This game was fucking insane btw

The Plague Doctor died right away so there was just constant changing of claims, we immediately figured out that there was 2 Cerenovii now and we were struggling to track it down because there was just so much going on. Later on, the Godfather claims perma cerelocked Atheist and some people genuinely believe them and it's just so much to keep track off and I'm in the final 3 and for the first time in a year or something, I've been in the final 3 and don't know who the Demon is. I nominate the Boomdandy.

Then the Storyteller during the grim reveal tells us that the Plague Doctor added the Spy ability

We were all completely confused

But it was just

Good lying so much

We believed it was a duo of Cerenovii

peak

it felt really really good to play this btw

player feedback was fairly positive

[elfin ivy]

This script looks like a lot of fun, definitely going on my bucket list of scripts to play/run if I have the chance

[floral isle]

yippee!! absolutely let me know how those games go as I'm trying to get a gauge of how balanced it is rn

[elfin ivy]

A couple things I'm curious about (part bc I still want to run this with my group when/if they're ready for it, and part because I'm trying to theorycraft a hermit-drunk-godfather script myself)

1. Would you ever do gf-1 here? With drunk and hermit both doing negative outsider mod already, it seems like it would be a feels-bad for the godfather. edit: the hermit -1 kinda makes this question irrelevant the more I think about it
2. are you worried about this being more goodsided at base 0? With the only (non atheist) positive O-mod being godfather, there can never be two drunks, and a face up outsider knows that everyone is getting good info (barring misreg).

[surreal torrent]

this singlehandedly is so incredibly fire

[timid dragon]

Is this the most recent version?

And if it is, why Godfather over Baron?

I don't see much that would ping a mathematician either

[timid dragon]

Ig preacher hmm

Anyways, looks like a cool script!

[elfin ivy]

wait math pinging after the godfather gets a kill from the executed spy is peak

[floral isle]

Alot of the misinformation in addition from the Drunk abilities comes from misregisteration. Mathematician helps narrow worlds where the YSK suite and other characters worries they pinged off a Hermit or Spy that ruins their information. It can also corroborate a Preacher hitting a Minion, which can be strong.

As for Godfather over Baron, it's a hard choice. Right now I prefer Godfather because the interaction with Ojo is super interesting with the fact the Ojo can simulate a Godfather kill, meaning they can frame certain players as Drunk or Hermits. Baron has more fun stuff with PD but as you pointed out has less interesting stuff with Preacher. I think having 1 minion suck with Preacher is fine, but less than ideal, so Baron could eventually come in since I think it helps at Base 0.

[floral isle]

Godfather -1 is unfortunately made redundant by the Hermit so it does feel weird to do. I've used the Hermit -1 with the Godfather +1 before but never -1. It's a weakness of Godfather here and it's why I do keep looking at Baron wistfully

On the point about Base 0 meaning every player knows they got good info: we hard trusted every face up outsider in the game I played in. Catastrophic loss by the good team. (Although it was a fairly insane game so that probably was why it was so evil favoured there lol)

[elfin ivy]

oh damn that's impressive

[floral isle]

Part of the reason was because they killed into what I claimed was my investigator pings (I didn't see correctly) then I was just like "that's insane. gotta be an Ojo game because that was a Plague Doctor"

It was Imp

[elfin ivy]

I do love the Godfather-Ojo interaction, it seems like it gives Ojo an additional niche that it very much wants to compete with the other two demons here.

honestly as janky as it can be, godfather-drunk might be my favorite non-homescript interaction in general (as a way to gain info on where drunks are, but ultimately controlled and sinkable by evil, and accelerating the game etc)

[floral isle]

There's alot of nuances to it, the script itself here is built around these signals being plentiful which means evil has an interesting choice when they wake as the Godfather

[floral isle]

I do want to start work on this script again soon because it's been kinda frozen in time

I think rn it's in a very fun spot but I don't have much data on base 0

[lost sigil]

ooooh this looks fun

[floral isle]

yesss

I love that a week ago this was pretty unknown then all at once a bunch of people found it

[surreal torrent]

sometimes i just scroll through #1029515413790392370 and see what i find

[floral isle]

very narrow Atheist win

had some great feedback from players

(this is a V2 draft, which is why VI + Shugenja + Seamstress are here)

the feedback was
-they preferred my "genre" of Atheist game! very fun to hear, especially because that player had been "mentally preparing" herself for an Atheist game, then when playing an Atheist game scenario was doing so as perfectly as you could. Definitely felt cool to deliver an Atheist game where it felt cool to particular players!
-the script (the current version of it) if very fun for Atheist. A complaint one player had of standard Atheist scripts is there's too much silly nonsense that covers up the game and the ability for good to work together. He liked that the script appears to encourage mild bluffing whilst mostly keeping the world building an open discussion.
-The game came down to a Final 3 where the frame was the Undertaker. He figured out in non-Atheist worlds he had to be the Demon, and so pushed on Atheist worlds in the Final 3. 3 votes on him, 5 on me. Tight game!

[surreal torrent]

oooooo

[floral isle]

Alright its probably time we discuss the new changes to the script 🫡

So... Star's Edge 2.0!

Star's Edge has been updated!! It's been through a slight overhaul but keeps that core motif of being an introduction to the Atheist, most misinfo coming from the Drunk ability, and Atheist being a tough policy execution. Let's get to it!

We won't break down every individual character change here, as its just too much. Instead, we'll summarise

Investigator ---> Shugenja

With Recluse gone, Investigator is too strong. Shugenja is strong but fallible to Spy & Drunk abilities.

Preacher ---> Balloonist

Preacher was removed in the general motion towards the new version due to various issues. However, it now has a place on the script and might rotate back in. Balloonist provides evil & drunk finding capabilities. It has soft o-mod (I rarely advise adding Outsiders at Base 2 counts)

Mathematician ---> Village Idiot

The Mathematician lost its luster after the Recluse was removed. Village Idiot works as an evil finder with inbuilt doubt and helps with a lack of tokens available in 15p games for Atheist (without VI, Atheist games of Star's Edge would need every face up character in play or duplicates... Too tight of bluffing space!)

Empath --> Seamstress

With recluse gone, Empath is too strong. Seamstress is strong but fallible to Spy & drunk.

Pixie ---> DEAD

DEAD

Recluse --> Snitch

Recluse was very evil sided on Star's Edge, and yet evil had a hard time fitting in when games had a Hermit (1-2 extra Townsfolk in the bag potentially!). You'd need a Spy for Lil Monsta games or rely on Cerenovus leniance to get away with many double claims. Snitch helps alot with evil bluffing Atheist games, as all evils can start with a bluff, making it harder to tell if all unique claims is due to a Snitch, Hermit or Atheist! It makes double claims more interesting too!

Cerenovus ---> Organ grinder

With Snitch added, alot of the cover for Lil Monsta games isn't as necessary. In addition, Cerenovus with Virgin & Hermit/Drunk is always kind of awkward. Organ Grinder works better with Boomdandy, has interesting Atheist possibilities! When counting votes in Atheist games with the OG ability active, don't manipulate executions very often, at most once per game. You can also toggle the ability on this script to imply someone was the Hermit! Very fun!!!!

VIGORMORTIS APPEARS!

The -1 Outsider MAY remove a Drunk possibly.. But the Vigormortis is the only way evil can poison anybody on this script. The Vigormortis scales well into higher counts at base 0/1, providing more misinformation to compensate for the fact that the Drunk abilities scale less well into higher count games. Vigormortis poison is very strong here, but comes at the cost of less misinformation early on. Fun!

some example grims!

(mostly for fun, I made each in like 2 mins)

[surreal torrent]

oooooo

[floral isle]

1 evil win 1 good atheist win! 1st game had a boom

(all 3 in the first game were claiming VI)

[surreal torrent]

all 3?

there were only 2 evils

[floral isle]

the final 3 was all VI claims

The 2nd Atheist game was a bit cooked in terms of how I handled it a bit. It was bit more obvious than my normal Atheist games because one of the frames was socially read as good

And I gave them info that was meant to be dodgy to seem like a bluff

It was still a very intense final day though!!

There was 5 people who weren't convinced going into it, (so it was fully divided), but good got there through a mix of socials and the only viable world left required 2 socially good players to be evil

7 votes on me!

[surreal torrent]

ohhh

i see

[surreal torrent]

v0?

[floral isle]

its vO

Version Organ Grinder

(this json is the most recent script, it just fixes the imgur problem)

although I am considering Seamstress --> Preacher recently

[floral isle]

star's edge has been murdered in cold blood by upcoming jinx changes to PD/Boom

(unless it allows PD to still detonate)

[floral isle]

Star's Edge lives!!!

[versed parrot]

Do you have tips on introducing/running this script for groups new to Atheist? Thinking of adding this to my script polls for irl games

[floral isle]

I'll do a brief write up of how I introduce the character later when I'm not playing 🫡

[versed parrot]

absolutely no rush at all, I'd be running this in like a month minimal

[floral isle]

I never did that huh

Well

"We are going to be running an Atheist script. The Atheist's ability is as follows 'The Storyteller can break the game rules, and if executed, good wins, even if you are dead. [No evil characters]'. The Atheist knows that all players are good and there is no such thing as Demons.

In an Atheist game, I am going to simulate a real game of blood on the clocktower, framing a real evil team and using my ability to break the rules to simulate an evil team existing, with just 1 player being in on the secret, whose role is to convince the town that everyone is good.

The danger of believing an Atheist is that if you execute me with no Atheist ability in play, then evil wins. In addition, any evil player inherently knows that Atheist is a free bluff by the fact they exist in the game at all making Atheist a wicked bluff by the evil team.

With that in mind: [explain jinxes]. With the Hermit Boomdandy interaction, I will only explode the player who believes they are an Atheist on occasion, and very rarely any other player."

I would recommend the following for a first time bag of Star's Edge:
-If it is not an Atheist game, add a Snitch or Hermit to the bag. One of the three bluffs given to the Minions should be Atheist early in a group's exposure to Atheist, to remind evil they can bluff it! It's also useful to do this for experienced players to tell them there's no Hermit or Drunk Atheist.
-If it is an Atheist game, the players will likely socially believe a first time Atheist: therefore you should frame them as a Drunk (not a Hermit in the first game imo) with the Librarian and Undertaker ability. I think framing players who don't get information in the first Atheist game is also useful for puzzle purposes.

also for what I came here for

Star's Edge was on the TPI stream!!!!

AND PUZZLE ATHEIST WAS RUN

||It was an Atheist game where good lost.||

[surreal torrent]

yooooo

[deep linden]

||Playing on that game actually made me realize Organ Grinder-Atheist isn’t a very fun combo, at least for me, so I’ll probably be avoiding it in the future.||

[floral isle]

could you elaborate on that because I've actually yet to run an OG on this (I keep avoiding putting it in the bag)

OG is here mostly to be a minion ability that comes into play and minions can sink to frame players as a hermit when it comes online, so if the interaction feels rough with Atheist I'll definitely remove it from the script

(I've yet to properly see how it works myself, I more so view it as fun in theory)

[lost sigil]

if you remove og you hate me personally btw delta /j

[floral isle]

https://tenor.com/view/elgatitolover-cat-kitty-elgatito-explosion-gif-8874415577877859154

[deep linden]

Sure thing. OG, by the virtue of hiding how everyone votes, makes it much harder to socially read who is protecting who and who is much more willing to vote on the Storyteller. Which makes puzzle-Atheist less of a puzzle when an OG ability comes online because one of the pieces of the puzzle has been taken away. I’m just not sure if the remaining pieces are enough to ever solve a puzzle-Atheist game. I also don’t love that ST can go on the block without anyone ever knowing and evil can freely vote on it every single time. If I’m looking for a less serious game those are fine concessions to make but puzzle-Atheist tends to be a bit more serious than silly-Atheist, so I just didn’t find those aspects fun. I think the ST needs to ham up the Atheist hints a little more on an OG game to make up for the lack of social reads from the voting, which also breaks the point of puzzle-Atheist. So I just don’t think it synergies that well.

[floral isle]

this is a really good point yeah

there were things that was kind of contentious with OG for me which was "the ST can pretend some players didn't vote when they did to frame certain nominations" which I chalked up as "just don't do that" but losing out on socials from voting is actually a pretty big deal considering how one of the biggest hints it is Atheist is players acting socially good

the last minion to be in that slot (Cerenovus) didn't quite work because it took away from the intended open puzzle atmosphere of the script but Organ Grinder is just hiding a different aspect of the puzzle

I'm going to think on it because I tend to overreact to critique (as in, I value it very heavily initially and might act too hastily, more so than maybe I should, but this is such a genuinely great point that I hadn't considered at all)

[placid galleon]

if you keep it you hate me personally btw

[surreal torrent]

https://tenor.com/view/mega-mind-girlsgirls-yourebothpretty-girlsgirlsyourebothpretty-gif-8292354

[floral isle]

changes were already being considered (Math+Preacher returning as Math's new jinx with the Drunk adds alot to the script), but Witch as a possible replacement for OG after giving it thought seems kind of perfect

-minion volume that allows it to "appear" and "disappear" at will, which allows evil to use both to frame specific worlds
-synergy with Godfather, Plague Doctor & Hermit, allowing a witch cursed Hermit to combo into a Godfather kill!
-Crazy synergies like "Witch Cursed Spy nominates & registers as an Outsider to the Godfather"
-It's just more interesting to simulate as an ST in Atheist games than OG. OG has a bit of nasty thorns where you need to trust your ST that they'll run it fairly. Witch has no such qualms, and helps with the ST picking off trusted players, or helping the ST help out good by "thrall witch" killing demon frames.
-It's a good vigormortis kill, whereas OG used to be great

So here's the proposed changes!
-
-
-
-

• 
• 
• 
• 

Explanations as I tend to do:

• Preacher

Preacher is kind of a darling for this script. It was in the original, but got scrapped when Recluse left, as it was intened to have a synergy with Mathematician deliberately. It was also weird with Cere, then got removed, then Cere was removed for OG, where Preacher made sense again. Witch, unlike Cerenovus, can be quieter when preached. A witch curse killing tells the Preacher they have not chose a Witch, but one not killing doesn't tell the Preacher as much. It's quite useful for town to have something to fight against Spy/LM, so Preacher exists for this purpose, along with defusing Boomdandies, and helping slow the tempo by preaching Godfathers and Witches, and helping close worlds when those abilities provably triggered.

• Mathematician

Mathematician is a powerful townsfolk on Star's Edge, helping replace the gap left behind by Dreamer & Seamstress. The Mathematician has the powerful ability to restrict worlds: a 0 to the Mathematician on Star's Edge is extremely powerful, and 2+ is also extremely powerful. A 1 is the hardest to scrutinise, but the Mathematician provides a powerful purpose on Star's Edge by helping good find Spy in LM, and also helping good discover WW/Lib misreg shenanigans with a Spy!

Math requires a bit more careful bag building because there are 1 minion bags where Math confirming all info is true is extremely strong: but I think it'd measure out as fine as there's plenty of failure states.

• Town Crier

It's just a nice pairing with Witch, is less swingy than Seamstress, and also replaces Mayor which could be a feelsbad if drunk.

• Witch

You already know why!

I think this is getting to a stage where I look at Star's Edge and feel very proud: previously I felt a tad bit like there was a bit of work to do still, but I love this version in particular.

Recommendation with Mathematician is that the jinx always counts a Drunk's ability working improperly.

(on the PDF itself, the jinx will be written as such, as it is the official recommendation)

[lunar raptor]

TC WITCH YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

[surreal torrent]

Witch, unlike Cerenovus, can be quieter when preached. A witch curse killing tells the Preacher they chose a Witch, but one not killing doesn't tell the Preacher as much.

i think you got this backwards, a witch curse killing tells the preacher they HAVEN’T chosen a witch

[floral isle]

yes thats a typo

[surreal torrent]

just making sure

[placid galleon]

NO MORE ORGAN GRINDER

[floral isle]

anyways before I properly commit to this, whats the opinion on the changes 🫡

[placid galleon]

[lunar raptor]

I like the changes! :D

[surreal torrent]

neato

[lunar raptor]

https://tenor.com/view/cinema-gif-5935759059195122434

[floral isle]

https://tenor.com/view/hai-gif-3398162314833221578

[lunar raptor]

witch has great godfather synergy too it's so good here

[floral isle]

look how far we came (spoilered so people dont think its modern)

[floral isle]

RIGHT!!!!

old Star's Edge is looking ass in comparison to modern SE

[lunar raptor]

the old script tool looks so weak now it's crazy

[floral isle]

also i'm doing this work rn bc I'm finalising Atheist essay

its become a bit of a monster of a project so I'll be happy to do this draft then comission some art for it

rn I'm between "stylised cool thing that vaguely gives Atheist vibes" and letting my friend come up with some art depicting the flavour of the character spread around the document

[floral isle]

the json didn't have the cool bg + skull

fixed on botc scripts too

[floral isle]

good win

[sturdy kayak]

Nice game to run. I don't think it was the best showcase of what it could have been ngl but still good to run and see played! Unsure of what necessarily could be addressed tbh would need to run it more

[surreal torrent]

this version is currently the only pin in this channel i suspect you’ll want to fix that :P

[surreal torrent]

want this pinned?

[floral isle]

pin please

[surreal torrent]

do you want the old one unpinned too?

or do you like it being there for archival

[floral isle]

nah unpin it

no reason to be confused

[floral isle]

being on the receiving end of seriously considering puzzle atheist was so much fun

its genuinely mind bending

the axiom of you knowing you are good no longer holds in world building

you must consider yourself to be possibly evil

[elfin ivy]

wait what

bc as good you want to eliminate worlds where you're evil?

[versed parrot]

as good you need to consider worlds where sober townsfolk learn that you're evil

[floral isle]

yes

if puzzle atheist is on the table then part of deducing puzzle atheist is figuring out if you must be evil for the game to work

[floral isle]

https://deltaclocktower.substack.com/publish/post/180798567 i should post this here too tbf as its relevant to Star's Edge.

[keen mist]

@floral isle a question about the script:
how aren't godfather kills super confirmatory? There doesn't seem to be any other death mod on the script

[sturdy kayak]

Ojo + Godfather + Drunk is a combo

Ojo can frame anyone as a drunk in a godfather game (and subsequently, atheist too)

[floral isle]

ojo misses are another explanation

if the ojo deliberately misses, consider framing a godfather kill

[coarse palm]

Do you frame the Atheist player as part of the fake evil team?

[sturdy kayak]

on Star's Edge you dont have tp

Because of the Hermit/Drunk situation

But they are prime Boomdandy bait

[coarse palm]

Boomdandy is fun here with atheist

I prefer it to goblin

Only thing about puzzle atheist, is it fun for the framed good players perspectives?

[surreal torrent]

their goal becomes figuring out why everyone who’s pushing on them has bad info and then if they conclude it’s atheist then trying to convince others

[coarse palm]

Can good figure it out though if all abilities work as normal, including the supposed evil ones?

[vapid furnace]

This is a social deduction game, and the atheist should read good.

If it comes down to social reads, that's fine.

[floral isle]

in my experience they are the players least convinced its Atheist socially, they get quite animated and it seemed quite fun

if your players aren't ready to be framed though then thats odd if they've played enough clocktower to get to an Atheist script

[floral isle]

yes

you can perfectly simulate a normal game and good can still win purely by socials

but to include mechanical players, do some minor "breaks" in the puzzle

these should be tough to spot and ideally only get noticed on the final day if at all

[lunar raptor]

@floral isle with witch now on script, have you considered yagg instead of ojo perchance? it does the ojo thing of being able to fake godfather kills (in a more intuitive way too!) but can also fake witch kills

[floral isle]

yooo

that's pretty good

now i do like an ojo having the choice of when they get to do the multi kill

but yagga has more options

AND

it'll make my players like it more, they love yagga

rn they find ojo a bit weird

[coarse palm]

Have ever simulated a boom in an atheist game

Obviously you wouldn’t do it day 1 or 2

[placid galleon]

how does good win that

can you just like

point at the ST

[lost sigil]

I've simulated a Boomdandy on not-this-script

[floral isle]

no but my players don't need to know that

(i'd simulate it occassionally on an Atheist D1 or D2)

the purpose of Boomdandy is "killing the Atheist D1 is bad" so if they do that then its fair to challenge them '

otherwise exercise caution with simulating a boom

if good has "cornered" you, booming someone can be a good way to

1. end the game quicker
2. keep the final decision exciting if you still have a viable frame alive

but the boom here should always be odd feeling - town doesn't have much time to work out Atheist clues, so the boom being on a player that it makes no sense to be on with a bit of thought is ideal for panic

[surreal torrent]

do they point at you to vote for you?

[floral isle]

In person yes, online they point at the player who boomed

[floral isle]

Star's Edge game

Witch bluffed Atheist

They executed me on the final day

This script does kinda want Yaggababble tbh

[lunar raptor]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/571359686553501697/1324743408870494330/Yaggababble-Animation.gif

it calls to you

[floral isle]

it calls

the script would become 10x more popular with yagga

the yagga calls to all

fuck it yagga star's edge

[lunar raptor]

hype!!!!

[surreal torrent]

yoooo

[keen mist]

what the hell is sideways thief

neutral team real

[surreal torrent]

blue side up meaning good

[keen mist]

oh i see

[lost sigil]

fully st-decided kills

[coarse palm]

instead of what

lil monsta?

[surreal torrent]

ojo

[mint jay]

Ran 2 games the other day. 1st had the Boomdandy executed day 2 (I think) and town accidentally tied the boom vote 4-2-4. Imp was bluffing Atheist and Spy was bluffing Lib with the Imp and Undertaker in a Hermit ping, then died to the Virgin D1.

[floral isle]

demon bluffing atheist

aura

[mint jay]

Honestly

[coarse palm]

Does this script run where plague doc explodes?

[floral isle]

yes

[mint jay]

The 2nd was actually Atheist, and the player who was the Imp bluffing Atheist in the last game actually drew Atheist, the player who was the Spy bluffing Librarian actually drew Librarian, and the Undertaker drew Undertaker again, so I couldn’t resist giving the same pings that the Spy was bluffing in the previous game. I set it up to frame the Undertaker and Atheist as a Lil’ Monsta Witch+Spy combo, which proved to be the only viable world town could build in final 3 (which most of town didn’t believe socially). They put 5 votes on me I think and good won.

[floral isle]

yooooo!!!

5 votes on the ST in 9p

amazingly close

[mint jay]

There were a couple players sceptical about Atheist before that game that at least said they had a good time which was good

[mint jay]

The Demon frame wasn’t nominated though - the players who didn’t vote said they still believed Atheist more, just didn’t want to over-vote. I think I probably made non-Atheist worlds just a touch too difficult to build, mostly out of caution. I think an Atheist loss there would’ve been really rough for some of the players more sceptical of the character.

[floral isle]

ahh gotcha

so overall a good time?

[mint jay]

Oh yeah for sure

It was my first time running Atheist properly so I was very happy with it overall, and the group said they enjoyed it

Will 100% be running this script more in future - it’s such a fun info puzzle

[coarse palm]

just ran a puzzle atheist

good won

no worlds worked with evil team

[floral isle]

did they execute well?

like into the evil frames

bc no worlds left is impressive work by good, so def well done to them

[coarse palm]

it was close until final couple days then they just couldnt put together an evil team

I did play a little conservatively by showing UT atheist who was exed day 1

I could have chosen drunk/hermit

[floral isle]

always fun to show an UT smth like that

i'm guessing they didn't believe it for a few days

[coarse palm]

there were worlds, but they were exhausted by final day

i simulated witch d1 then nothing after

[floral isle]

did players have fun

[coarse palm]

Yes

Nice script

good intro to atheist

[floral isle]

STAR'S EDGE!!! 2.3!!!!

Ojo replaced with the Yaggababble

The Ojo had a redundancy with the Spy. However, it's primary purpose was to simulate a Godfather kill to frame players as Drunk and to give a Godfather kill more cover. The Yaggababble accomplishes this, whilst also giving Witch cover, meaning that extra deaths during the day & night in 1 minion might look like a Lil Monsta Godfather Witch game, but its actually a Yaggababble Spy game! The Yaggababble also lets Plague Doctor triggers get simulated (so it can look like a Godfather or Witch entered play later, and it can simulate duplicates of these abilities!)

Do be cautious with this: Yaggababble having this kind of insane power is great but speeding the game up too much can be detrimental to the experience. I'd give a Yaggababble about 1/2 extra kills per game, maybe 3 in large games. If a Yaggababble goes crazy though, feel free to reward that with a massacre.

Enjoy!

[placid galleon]

it’s peak!!!!!!!!

[lost sigil]

i'll be running this version on Monday!!

#event-listings message

[floral isle]

i hope i can make it but i'd be at my family's for cfhristmas

[versed parrot]

I'm gonna be running the Ojo version of this in longtext at some point in the nearish future, if you think Ojo<->Yag is a viable wobble?

[surreal torrent]

not delta obviously but based on his comments it seems like ojo works fine, yag just beats it in the Cool department so that's why it got put on

[versed parrot]

yeah, that's about my impression as well

[floral isle]

Forgor to reply but yeah 100% do Ojo in longtext as I've heard it's quite bad there

Yaggababble is just more aura but Ojo worked fine before

[sturdy kayak]

Get them to watch’s

[surreal torrent]

are there any recorded games of stars edge? i know it was on tpi at one point but idk if it’s preserved anywhere or vanished into the aether

[floral isle]

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2608310747

this'll prob get deleted soon tho

its a vod

[vapid furnace]

Two Boomdandy wins today!

[lost sigil]

oh, yeah, I forgot to write up my thoughts on the script having run it twice!

• yaggababble feels incredibly natural here. this is incredibly solvey and as such the yag has a lot to talk about, especially since lack of lying --> more incentive to give a bluff-based phrase. most Yaggababbles will be saying their phrase 1-3 times a day and you'll typically be killing 1-2 times a night, maybe 3 if you're framing PD-GF. Love it love it love it.
• Vigor feels a little weird with how frontloaded this infoscape is? There's still plenty to poison here, don't get me wrong, but there are games where you're only vig-killing to keep the Witch around. I don't see myself wanting to kill the Spy in most games, and only maybe the GF considering that there's likely only 1-2 Outsiders in play anyway.
• I didn't actually put the Preacher into either bag, but it seems fun here with Mathematician. I ruled this incorrectly in-game but a Drunk (Atheist) pinging the Math on n1 for failing their setup is awesome and with only it, Preacher, and Spy as N1 Math pings, it's really tight. I do think the math is really strong here but given how strong these evils are, I think that it's warranted.
• Virgin without a way to keep them around (e.g. Monk on TB) feels a little odd, but it's more of a nitpick than anything. I don't really have a suggestion, it was just something I felt while running it.

I don't think I have any real suggestions for things you should change — I think that this is incredibly tight and unique as a script. Delta, you cooked here.

Actually, one comment — Scapegoat feels swingy in a way that I'm not sure I like, since it's hugely tied to "is there a VI that can alignment-check the Scapegoat/their ping" -- and losing execution tempo with an Atheist claim can feel a little sad, since it's a day you aren't executing a Demon candidate?

the Scapegoat/multikill thing doesn't actually apply all too much because the only multikills are realistically happening when you execute a Outsider (i.e. not the Scapegoat)

[floral isle]

this is awesome and epic

thank you alot for the kind words!!

vig imo is sadly the weakest point of the script. I would love if I can find smth else but right now it's a bit of "TPOT Imp" where its just the last best fit of a handful of very narrow choices

For the travellers, I'm going back to the drawing board on the recommended travellers probably. I think Bureaucrat, Scapegoat, and Butcher all have issues sadly, but Beggar and Thief can stay.

[coarse palm]

Could pukka be viable here

[floral isle]

It would be very very strong, the misinformation is at a perfect point where tilting it further just hurts the script

[empty rivet]

Isnt scapegoat a PLEASE DONT BRING THIS TRAVELLER on this script?

[floral isle]

It also does not work with Plague Doctor

[lost sigil]

It is one of the recommended Travellers on script

[empty rivet]

I must be confusing it with pearly gates

[lost sigil]

I kinda like Bureaucrat/Thief as a pair here; Butcher I agree has issues

Beggar feels incredibly strong given the 3 evil nightkills Demons

[lunar raptor]

could ojo comes back in place of vig work maybe? or go awesome sauce and do LoT?

[empty rivet]

I think LoT would get bodied here

[lunar raptor]

but it’s so awesome sauce

[empty rivet]

@floral isle how would you narrate a plague Doctor made boomdandy in an atheist game?

I am cooking with this question?!?!?!

[floral isle]

narrate?

[empty rivet]

Storytell i mean

Quirks of english not being my first language sorry!

[floral isle]

No worries!

The Boomdandy jinx can make a living Boomdandy if you really want so you can simulate a good Boomdandy, but honestly I feel like this script is not the environment where this would be interesting very often

I think you want to make good Boomdandys rarely, which means you shouldn't really do that in an Atheist game until your players expect it is a possibility from Theist games imo

[empty rivet]

Good player who is a frame in an atheist game transforming into a real boomdandy its something.

[floral isle]

Otherwise players default to thinking it's Atheist because weird crazy thing happened

[empty rivet]

Ummmm

Yeah

I guess i would break da rules and not make the good boomdandy "proc" if they are ever executed because how would good win if they cant nominate the ST.

[floral isle]

Just rule that they can point at the ST

More fun

[empty rivet]

Okey.

[floral isle]

The travellers I've got in mind are:

Deviant: Star's Edge Atheist games I've run have sometimes gotten very very intense to the point players actually got frustrated over how intense it felt: normal to happen and normal to feel, and it's a good sign of puzzle atheist and the script facilitating that, but this environment can feel pretty hostile.

That's why Deviant, a character made for making scripts that are quite intense, a little more light-hearted if you have a traveller, fits in here.

Voudon? Weird but fits with the multideath. Idk I just need to think about more travellers here.

Gnome: probably the least offensive killing traveller with Boomdandy and is a killing traveller that tends to not accelerate as much as the other two.

Barista: it's very close to being peak

[empty rivet]

Barista 100% should be here

Thief burocrat combo never gets old i would not delete burocrat!

[floral isle]

Ojo is a shout but I feel like it eats into Yaggababble and Spy maybe too much. Lord of Typhon feels out of place, and also feels particularly weird to have the arbitrary outsider count with drunks on script. Outsider count on Star's Edge is already somewhat soupy, but it's range limited

[floral isle]

but Beggar is just a lil guy who needs to be in more games

[empty rivet]

Beggar its the first traveller to self exile

Almost always

At least in my non traveller friendly group

[floral isle]

well this is why you let players choose which traveller they get to be from a selection because people who don't like Beggar won't want to play it

I do think Deviant should be on script though for sure

I think the script gets very intense

[coarse palm]

Beggar way more fun in person

With physical tokens

[floral isle]

It'd be
Bureaucrat
Thief
Deviant
Barista
Voudon/Gnome/Beggar

[surreal torrent]

why do you need vig at all?

are you super attached to having 4 demons or smth

or does it actually have an important part to play

i haven’t played or run stars edge but i rolled a bunch of bags and vig did feel a little sad

[empty rivet]

Vig has a fearmonger effect with dead players

Dont trust the dead type deal

Also the fact that i dont know vig really isnt that good with spy saddly ummm.

Would no dashi even be good here

[surreal torrent]

👿

cmon give me the emoji i selected

[empty rivet]

Yeah, but also having a second reason for it happening its good, it really likely for really sus players to die at night

[surreal torrent]

imp doesnt do the job in 1 minion witch games i guess

[empty rivet]

+yaggabable and lil monsta also do this a bit

[surreal torrent]

yag should not be killing minions in most situations

[empty rivet]

I really like the strange signaling of hermit here. It really shakes up the game if a ballonist adds a hermit and theres a way to know

A good player turning into boomdandy final day/surprise organ grinder

[lost sigil]

The misinfo is loadbearing

[empty rivet]

Another traveller that might work if they are put on a bag without town crier its bishoppppp

[placid galleon]

wait for the drunk math atheist thing, doesn’t this script ignore the drunk math jinx

also what’s wrong with imp

just vig loadbearing misinfo?

oh wait imp is on this script already im silly

uh uh uh what about no dashii 😎😎😎

lleech surely 😍😍😍

[surreal torrent]

no

its an "always tick up math when drunk causes a malfunction"

[placid galleon]

oh that’s cooler

[surreal torrent]

i think?? im trying to find a source for that

and struggling

[surreal torrent]

@placid galleon

[floral isle]

https://tenor.com/view/elgatitolover-cat-kitty-elgatito-explosion-gif-8874415577877859154

Godfather+1 with 2 drunks No Dashii, worst bag of all time

[surreal torrent]

fire

[empty rivet]

Ohhh now i see it

[floral isle]

I didn't respond to this, but Witch is fairly important to script composition so Bishop had to go

I'd remove Town Crier if Bishop could come in tbh but Witch is here so it's not justifiable

[empty rivet]

Ummmm yeah i guess

I could save up bishop for another script

[surreal torrent]

botcscripts page still says “all misinformation, sparing Spy misregistration, comes entirely from the Drunk ability” when vig exists

idk how to parse the bit after the comma in the Important Note:

Feel free to clarify with your players how you run this in case they bring up this paranoia, as its not fun to believe you as.

[elfin ivy]

Wait does math really ping on drunk setup effects? That feels. odd

ig it says "since dawn" and so there's no reason it wouldn't include not fulfilling setup text

huh

[floral isle]

this wasnt posted here so im postin it

[lost sigil]

It follows from Marionette-Recluse

the recluse misregistering at setup pings the math, so the atheist failing its setup because it's the drunk also pings

[elfin ivy]

Oh huh

The recluse causes Mario to not be adjacent to the demon, so it malfunctioned due to another character's ability. With the drunk jinx, the atheist's setup doesn't happen, so that checks out

ig that gives the math conditional info on the atheist claim's alignment in a theist game, so that is somewhat interesting

Though maybe that's why the jinx is written as a "might" so the storyteller can just choose not to rule it that way

[mint jay]

I had this situation come up in one of the games I ran the other day. I opted to rule that it didn’t uptick math at the time, as the Demon was bluffing Athiest so it basically tells the Math (who learnt a 0) that the Atheist claim is evil in non-Atheist worlds

[elfin ivy]

(since it still feels oddly unintuitive)

[mint jay]

Not the worst in the world but quite strong info

[mint jay]

The jinx as a whole feels oddly unintuitive lol

[elfin ivy]

Yeah agreed

[surreal torrent]

on this script the drunk-math jinx is a mandatory uptick when a malfunction happens but as long as you’re clear with how you’re running it there’s no problem with handling drunk-atheist one way or the other

[elfin ivy]

Yeah I mean making it a mandatory uptick rather than arbitrary is obviously better, and agreed that just sticking to a ruling is the best way to handle something like this

I just find it funny how unintuitive that interaction is despite the line of reasoning making sense

[floral isle]

yeah the Drunk Atheist upticking the number is very much a "rule it as what your group finds fun" but I'd personally find upticking it more fun

[elfin ivy]

My worry was more that my players might never even consider it so I'd need to find a way to explain it without giving too much information overload/being gamestate indicative by butting in midgame to explain it

Though tbh math is unintuitive enough I'd likely get asked about it regardless so that's fine

[floral isle]

tbc this is fine for a Math to differentiate between a Drunk Atheist and Evil Atheist in Theist worlds: its a unique role that only Balloonist and VI can consistently replicate and its great info to give

ultimately boomdandy fears will keep evils bluffing Atheist alive

(until the Preacher Town Crier VI and Balloonist line out the exact evil team)

[placid galleon]

i’ll rebuild the bag when I get home but I just played a game of this where the good team solved the game but every dead good player gave their dead votes to the beggar so they didn’t have enough votes to win

[placid galleon]

d1 boomdandy win between imp, drunk virgin, and VI neighboring the boomdandy

[placid galleon]

oh tc should have been dead

good win

f3 was vig witch and virgin

procced virgin mind you

[floral isle]

brother

😭

[placid galleon]

this was the bag

[floral isle]

good beggar too

peak

[placid galleon]

yeah it was cinema

[empty rivet]

Absolute Cinema!!!!!

I love this script so much guys is so peak!

[empty rivet]

ITS SOOOO PEAK

[placid galleon]

what did the hermit see

[empty rivet]

Washerwoman

Seeing a non existant preacher

[floral isle]

[floral isle]

btw a Boomdandy explosion has not yet lost the game for evil

its a 100% win rate

even better minion than it is on TPOT

(maybe genuinely too good: invest might need to come back on to temper it & spy!)

the main thing rn is that the script is fairly evil sided based on the data for current version but I have suspicions as to why and they seem quite fixable

i wanna see how people feel before I change anythin tho

like is the impression that the games feel close?

[floral isle]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uf9qlfNeuYk

PATTERS VIDEO!!!

[lunar raptor]

ahhhh there it is!!!! :D

[coarse palm]

ive played twice and ran once so not an expert, but the atheist boom dilemma is fun here

[empty rivet]

I think the script its amazing as is. My group is not used to fake atheist and crazy boomdandy plays, they think they can defy the boomdandy and win but most of the time when the explosion comes out dayum they get lost

As the name of the script is, they are taken to the edge!

Each game ive played with boomdandy here either they are nailed as the boomdandy and defused or they get executed day 2/3 because town is careless!

[floral isle]

i used to have a player who was very happy to execute boomdandies because it usually resulted in a good win with other STs and scripts. he now tries avoiding a boom wherever possible

[surreal torrent]

how do you pace your explosions?

[floral isle]

fast

20 seconds early maybe, 10 seconds late

[surreal torrent]

that seems too fast to me?

10 seconds late seems fine

but early? when town can’t confidently solve regardless?

[floral isle]

anything past 20 seconds tends to just risk boomdandy being a thrall

its too much time

[empty rivet]

10 seconds is enough

I take my time killing each player while the explosion is happening so thats like 20 seconds

[surreal torrent]

how have early booms felt for the players in the games you’ve run?

[floral isle]

30 seconds are where it turns from a panic to a hasty "just say whats relevant to the living players in casual order" and that usually helps good win, and you typically want the final 3 from a bomb to be interesting

[surreal torrent]

those extra 10 seconds only count for anything if town is able to discuss during it

[floral isle]

well they should not feel fair, the point is that it isn't but good can still claw back a win

[surreal torrent]

ofc

[empty rivet]

Yeah i kill the players in silent so they can discuss a bit

[floral isle]

town can say whatever they want at any time. if i'm taking too long to kill players they can do what they want

[surreal torrent]

i’m not disagreeing

i meant physically capable of discussion without getting drowned out

i guess the solution here as always is for town to discuss plans for a boom beforehand

[empty rivet]

They talked about 3 players before hand and i just killed all 3 hahahaha

[floral isle]

god that must have been a great moment

"so its probably of these 3... who do we point at..."

"oh."

peak boomdandy panic

[surreal torrent]

the thing that’s causing this reaction to 20 seconds is atheist providing a fourth solution here that doesn’t seem like it can be realistically parsed out socially or mechanically on day 1

boom should not be trivial or anything but 1/4 with the fourth being somewhat indistinguishable seems unreasonable to me

on d1 of a 2 minion game specifically

1 minion games d1 is already basically lategame

this is something i am not confident about because i haven’t run boomdandy or star’s edge, my concern is detached from actual played experience so if you disagree with my concerns then i won’t argue it further until i can come back with experience one way or the other

[empty rivet]

I have decided that if a boomdandy explodes it means there is a real demon before starting the game, so if someone becomes a boomdandy in a atheist game, they wont proc

[floral isle]

well i've not had a boom d1 on Star's Edge yet but I'd still go on the side of caution and run the boom fast

[surreal torrent]

i think my inclination is 25-30

[floral isle]

https://tenor.com/view/me-atrapaste-es-cine-its-cinema-cinema-esto-es-cine-gif-12869046600151364058

[surreal torrent]

is chambermaid anything here? yag and LM have weird waking patterns, the minions have a spread, and you’ve got several EN and EN* tf

i guess getting a 0 on an atheist claim is a big deal

[empty rivet]

Mathmatician its just better here with the new jinxes

I am yet to see a vigormortis game where the plague doctor dies and makes a boomndandy and then that boomdandy dies at night poisoning 1+ player.

[surreal torrent]

WAIT FIRE

[floral isle]

recreated grim

evil win

witch bluffed atheist

[coarse palm]

Any yag day deaths

[floral isle]

yes

when the Witch bluffing Atheist died, I killed 2 players

in the night

then showed the Hermit "Drunk"

it led to the Hermit 100% believing it was Atheist because they felt like the Atheist was reading evil, not Drunk

nope that mixed up his logic

he was metaing that I am more willing to frame an Atheist as Drunk, not evil

the group in their 2nd game nearly had their first Atheist loss

they've fully learnt Atheist I think this group

They're now extremely paranoid and are actively fighting the willingness to go "oh none of this matters" and keep solving

[versed parrot]

Evil win on final 3 via executing the Storyteller!

[lunar sonnet]

The game was very fun! I loved the social environment it meshed really well with atheist

[versed parrot]

Ran this over longtext, so some longtext-specific notes:

• As always in longtext, I didn't super want to rack Boomdandy, but I know it's integral to the script and would need to go in sometimes if this became a longform staple.
• As is not unexpected in longtext, I used the Ojo version of this script. The Ojo never missed, either deliberately or otherwise and ended up playing pretty similarly to a "standard" Demon, but I don't think that was bad here!
• Folks played more face-down for the first 2.5 days, but once things were outed, town was pretty collaborative on their execution order. No serious counternominations were made on days 3-6, which meant that town quieted down a bit -- the inverse of what I've seen happen on some scripts!
• The endgame felt super fair, though! Town was privately expressing the sentiment of "it's [Demon] or Atheist, and GGs to Evil if it's [Demon]."
• I built a few bags and didn't love the Vig bag as much as I loved the others, but I know it's loadbearing droison.
• I ran a good-aligned Beggar from the get-go: they were basically unable to use their ability until Day 3 (a procced Virgin was the N2 kill). I think I might recommend a different traveller if someone planned to sit through the whole game from the get-go, but maybe that's me speaking from an ST seat and it was a fun play pattern.

I really liked the feel of this script! I'm not sure it's going to be the best possible form of Puzzle Atheist for longform specifically, but I wouldn't mind playing longtext Star's Edge again and am definitely incorporating this into my shortform rota.

[floral isle]

atheist loss

it was an atheist loss where the vibes were harshed but people seemed to go more of a "aw damn it, so close" instead of "this sucks"

3 votes on me, 4 votes on the Shugenja

[empty rivet]

We still dont have a Boomdandy Loss yet?

[vapid furnace]

Delta has a knack for making scripts where boomdandy helps and this script is being run by competent STs

[placid galleon]

were there any mechanical breaks in the puzzle?

[floral isle]

Yes but good found a specific world I wasn't framing that was visible

The virgin never attempted to be nominated so alot of information wasn't available

[coarse palm]

Do almost all games of Stars Edge have an atheist claim

[empty rivet]

No

I have storytold that script and i have slowly been introducing atheist into it

I am yet to run an atheist game.

3 games where 2 didnt have atheist claims, third one had the classic atheist boomdandy.

Gonna try running tonight a game see if i make something fun

[empty rivet]

Day 1 boomdandy execution (claiming Virgin)

Evil win for boomdandy the goat

Savant had there are only 2 characters from trouble Brewing in play (true) if the X player (who is actually boomdandy) its good then Y player has an empath 1.

Spy bluffed Washerwoman confirmation

Without knowing she hard countered the Savant's information, but it was something that was talked about during the explosion.

[floral isle]

no but its common

[empty rivet]

If you guys could rate this script in a scale of 5 star in complexity how would you guys rate it.

[floral isle]

4

maybe 3

its a higher 3 or lower 4

[empty rivet]

And how complex it would be storytell it guys, its that i am posting the script to a spanish website and i want to put an accurate rating.

[floral isle]

hmm ok so this is an interesting question

i think if you are STing this script is simpler than actually playing it

the reason being is that if you follow some Puzzle Atheist principles you'll usually not need to think that much when running the script

BUT

if you don't have Puzzle Atheist knowledge or background its easy to mess up

and finding the balance of how much breaks in a puzzle are needed in order to make the Puzzle Atheist fun & tense is difficult

[coarse palm]

what if you run entirely sober puzzle atheiest

who wins

usually

[floral isle]

no hints at all?

or do you mean "everyone registers as good and their character"

[coarse palm]

no, frame an evil team and stick to it

[floral isle]

oh good usually wins

i'd say 80% of the time with that

mechanics players get kind of excluded if you do that though so its not recommended

[coarse palm]

i think newer players will be goodsided because they likely wont bluff atheist as often

or even players who are not used to puzzle atheist

[floral isle]

yeah i agree with that

as people get more experienced with Puzzle Atheist they cut back on socials way more

because its very easy to just trust everyone if thats an option

distrusting someone is different from trusting them the least

[empty rivet]

Decided that this would be the rating

[floral isle]

yeah i'd agree with that

[surreal torrent]

shit

wrong screenshot

evil win! group new to star’s edge all seemed to enjoy it :) evil both bluffed VI

[surreal torrent]

good win! they were locked in on it being atheist from very early on mostly because the outsider count wasn’t adding up (i legitimately forgot to adjust outsider count after originally miscounting 11p)

there were some very fringe evil teams at the end that town felt didn’t track socially, which seems to be about what you’re going for? i wish i’d noticed the outsider issue, but the players had fun so whatever

[floral isle]

Slight update!

Balloonist ---> Dreamer

Balloonist, on Star's Edge, feels sloppy and bad for the good team. Any Balloonist claim increases outsider worlds and makes solving way harder: which a Townsfolk should not be doing unless they provide a heavy benefit for it (Atheist). Dreamer does the Balloonist job better, whilst helping narrow demon candidates & boomdandies, which good needed help with. If this continues to be an issue, something like Fortune Teller may be reintroduced (even if FT/LM is smth I dislike a bit)

This is an attempt to help the good team, as they were struggling, so do report back if games feel less evil sided.

[lost sigil]

[floral isle]

(tbc the good win rate on this script is like abysmal so the next few months will be buffing town until rates improve to the 40-60% range)

[lost sigil]

want a pin?

[floral isle]

yes please!!!

axo mod is op

[lost sigil]

(want me to unpin 2.3 and 2.2?)

[floral isle]

(yeah)

[lost sigil]

done!

is this 2.3.1 or 2.4 👀

oh i can't read it's 2.4

[floral isle]

also i tracked my data like shit so 2.3 and 2.2 was clumped in with 2.1 but 2.1 existed for like 2 seconds

but 2.1 good win rate was 2-10, and global win rate is 5-16

[surreal torrent]

showing the atheist as hermit / boomdandy will go so hard

[empty rivet]

I like a little evil sided scripts, yeah i agree

[floral isle]

tbc i mean "good wins 40% to 60% of the time" not "good wins 40%, evil wins 60%"

ideally 50% but i think this script will find that difficult

[surreal torrent]

it doesn’t help that how games of this script go is so heavily swayed by playgroup/playstyle

[empty rivet]

I liked ballonist side quest of being the drunk/hermit finder

But dreamer its just more direct

[empty rivet]

It is the Dark Souls of Atheist scripts imo

[surreal torrent]

??

it’s designed to be an entry point to the character

[empty rivet]

Yeah isnt it

Its sooo good i think it deserves the spot

I think it is hard boiled but fair

Not easy.

This is a easy to learn hard to master script

[surreal torrent]

“this is the dark souls of…” means it’s the most sick and twisted, difficult, punishing version of the category

[empty rivet]

No

For me Dark Souls is the pinacle of a genre defining trait, difficult but easy to understand

Star's Edge its the Tour of Atheist Scripts

[surreal torrent]

star’s edge is the trouble brewing of atheist scripts

why do comparisons like this when you could just describe it

[lost sigil]

the ravenkeeper procced going into f3, saw the Imp, and Dell managed to pull a viable LM world out of his ass while explaining why Jax was doubleclaiming Shoonken

[empty rivet]

It aint no trouble brewing imo

[surreal torrent]

i was not making a serious comparison, i was poking fun at comparing it to things in unclear ways instead of just. describing it

[empty rivet]

Baby's first intermediate-expert atheist script with Boomdandy as the posterchild

[floral isle]

i joked before that Star's Edge is Tour On Expert Mode or whaatever

but Star's Edge is meant to be an entry point

i think the analogy should be closer to "Atheist is the Dark Souls of Clocktower" and not "Star's Edge is the Dark Souls of Atheist"

not 100% true but within your view of Souls-likes I think it fits better

[floral isle]

star's edge is evil TPOT in that i will be cursed to evil winning

[lost sigil]

no but like evil worked their asses off

Like they deserved the win

[coarse palm]

Is this, AD or TMO the best beginner atheist script

[floral isle]

good

[floral isle]

TMO is just weird with Atheist and I feel like it needs a special touch to get it right

AD is imo not a great Atheist intro because people are lying alot

Ideally an Atheist environment focuses on open cooperative puzzle solving and world building

the madness + intended punitive ojo design means players should be lying alot and it detracts from the experience imo

[mint jay]

Without Balloonist to boost the Ousider count, is it now recommended to rule that in a base-0 game with a Vig and a Godfather there may still be 1 Outsider?

And if so, should that be something listed on the script site (much like China Shop has recently added)?

[floral isle]

i ran it that way anyways

[empty rivet]

I gonna miss ballonist quick thinking of if i accidently give wrong savant info and there is a Ballonist in play i just make the savant drunk/hermit and give it away to a good player by making them boomdandy

If hermit isnt in play

Saved a game from being bad stoytold like that

I still think there is a bias that this script is evil sided i dont think it is

[floral isle]

good win rate was 20%

it is evil sided

and anecdotally alot of it felt like balloonist adjacent issues

there can be biases yes (like i think the win rate is about 10/15% lower because players are still adjusting to Atheist now that its actually being run more often in a fun way and it'll self correct), but balloonist introduces hellzone worlds that good need to sift through to solve atheist worlds

like base 0 double drunk is entirely plausible and even if you trust your ST, you still need to entertain that world if you're playing atheist well

[vapid furnace]

How many of those were atheist wins anyway?

Since atheist should usually win

[floral isle]

these are non-atheist games

[vapid furnace]

Oh you separated the data

Yeah that makes sense

[floral isle]

atheist game win rate is 80% which is within the 80%-90% target range

[vapid furnace]

Ok. So that's good.

[floral isle]

yep

but the bias i applied to theist losses applies to atheist wins

many theist losses are storyteller executions

so as players adjust to Atheist

you'd expect the atheist win rate to slumpe

[vapid furnace]

Atheist is probably going to bring the non-atheist winrate down

[floral isle]

oh absolutely but you can help with that by reducing hellzoney worlds

dreamer reduces worlds alot which is why it'll boost good win rates imo

[vapid furnace]

I think we're probably looking at a 40-45% non-atheist winrate for good at best?

[vapid furnace]

It's also just a stronger tf

[floral isle]

ehhh i think an atheist script can be good sided

obviously "Hermit Drunk" is stupidly evil sided and this is a script trying to make that work

[vapid furnace]

Yeah, but with hermit drunk pd boom it makes it a lot harder to do that

I think usually goodsided theist involves purely bluffable atheist

Not even a drunk

[floral isle]

yeah i'd agree with that

i think if atheist has an official environment it would be evil in every theist world purely because an atheist claim is so evil sided in theist games

[vapid furnace]

||It's probably what happens on GoS, with something like leviathan to halt that||

[floral isle]

however i think that good reasons to claim atheist like Drunk work on smth like Star's Edge for reasons like worlds converging onto 3 players so solving over the course of a game should become simpler

[vapid furnace]

That is true

I think it does work

But this is going to probably lean slightly evil

[floral isle]

ye i'm fine with that

40-45% is a fine spot for a script to end up

tpot is that but good favoured instead

[analog charm]

atheist loss

also evil win (neither traveller's abilities did anything)

[vapid furnace]

And here we go with more evil wins

[analog charm]

ye

tbf with the evil win the exact world was found they just ended up going for atheist

[floral isle]

how did good lose here?

btw genuinely funny i'm cursed to even an atheist loss here

[lunar raptor]

look at who the atheist was

we simply were physically unable to build atheist worlds until the final day

[floral isle]

oh ok

😭

[empty rivet]

After all do you guys think that Virgin -> professor would be sustancial change here that it makes the good team win more?

Spy sadness i remenbered

Nvm

[floral isle]

yes but only because it'd be so absurdly unfair

professor is just not interesting in this environment

[lunar raptor]

maybe shug could be changed to a stronger YSK?

[empty rivet]

Its just i think some Virgins role its weaker as im confirmed player

Here

Because of no monk

[floral isle]

it confirms the nominator is a townsfolk, which is the primary value

[empty rivet]

And at the on the day i think evil team has so much killing power

[floral isle]

noble/invest are the townsfolk i think could slide in, maybe chef

[empty rivet]

It isnt the reason evil wins so much

But still feels like a killing power its what i agree that its powerful.

Guys i am drunk

Im having a stroke reading what i just wrote 😭😭😭

[lunar raptor]

maybe add an artist or something

honestly though this script is the most TB-like script, even among the countless "TB but" customs, because it almost always feels like there's at least a couple feasible worlds, with the correct one having to be determined through socials at the end

[empty rivet]

Trueeeee

[floral isle]

i have unironically considered this but somehow it feels like Artist is still too strong for Hermit/Drunk

[coarse palm]

acrobat ?

though only useful for drunk

[empty rivet]

Artist would absolutely survive here and with spy shenanigans its better

Sober and healthy artist would just solo solve i guess

[empty rivet]

Even more dmod here would be too much for my liking

I think dreamer solves a lot of issues and its more spy food

But its -1 normal bluff where the evil team has already -2 bluff with drunk and hermit being outsiders

So the evil team must act more drunken with their bluffs.

Well some can argue that a really pro evil team can bluff dreamer well by being room scanners and having most of the grim to support the bluff

I do belive the good team walks on thin line of being arbitrary or purpose so that the evil team can shine more

Village idiot, shugenja, dreamer, savant, Virgin all walk on a margin of error by their own ability that its deliberate because its not spoon fed information. And if it is spoon fed, it comes with a small draw back: washerwoman, librarian, towncrier, undertaker.

Ballonist used to be spoon fed information at the cost of outsider count shenanigans, and with 2 drunks thats too evil sided.

[empty rivet]

for me like a bit it feels like there is too few characters to play around with except with stuff like ravenkeeper shenanigans

As an ST

It feels like there is too few townfolk

But for what its worth it feels amazing

This script is one of my favs

[sturdy kayak]

evil win from executing atheist

Dreamer feels very fun here!

very solid script

Spy and LM potential i think really opens a lot ofworlds

no one really pondered Godfather but that would too with Drunk and Hermit

[lost sigil]

are we at 0-4 😭

[lunar raptor]

honestly it does feel really difficult

[floral isle]

spy is unfortunately the culprit there but i think it was fine bc we did find the thread for Zeros spy but we didn't fully explore it

like the game was very solvable

[lunar raptor]

this script really is some sort of TB(vibes) On Expert Mode 🤔

[floral isle]

perfect!!!

being compared with TB as a vibe is genuinely really cool

[lunar raptor]

like legit it is the only custom script that i can think of that actually does capture the vibes

(excluding the "TB but"s of course)

the expert mode does really come in from there very often being 1 extra demon candidate in the form of the Storyteller

[floral isle]

chef or investigator is probably the next route if things stay evil sided btw

(i think I may even drop Ravenkeeper purely bc it feels lowk kinda bad on the script but who knows)

[lunar raptor]

ravenkeeper does feel kinda weak yeah

have you considered soldier?

[floral isle]

ravenkeeper is just power creeped by dreamer

[lunar raptor]

VIs give it room to be confirmed, and then it stays around until f3 unless GF or Witch killed

[sturdy kayak]

It's also a script where I think I actively dont want a Savant lol

or even like HP/General

because meta info is just weird with Atheist I think

Like Savant is on script sure and wasnt racked or bluffed but i think it can be weird

but maybe i need to see how it goes tbh

[lunar raptor]

what if Oracle

it's very strong but maybe very strong is what good needs?

[coarse palm]

-Savant +Oracle?

worldbuilding would be much simpler but not as deep as with savant

[sturdy kayak]

savant wouldnt be the 1st role to remove tbh

[empty rivet]

This combo really reminds me of the balance of the characters on script

That i talked about here

[floral isle]

I think rn it is just about balancing the info itself because the info landscape is mostly perfect

I think I worried too much about town being too strong

[empty rivet]

Absolutely i agree

[floral isle]

Luckily it's much easier to buff good then it is evil

[lunar raptor]

tbh go with invest i think, at the very least

[floral isle]

yeah

I'll give this version 2 more games and see how it feels

[empty rivet]

Now on half of the townfolk are semi arbitrary but powerful info + the other half is more direct but comes with a draw back.

Soo seeing it like that it looks perfect

But yeah ravenkeeper on a awkward spot, what if farmer was here thou? Giving the possible world of a drunk transforming into a fake farmer is something valid here?

I dont know....

[floral isle]

I think Ravenkeepers issue is that it being in the bag can often feel sad

There's too many ways for it to be dealt with by evil

[empty rivet]

At the end of the day farmer is stronger ravenkeeper

[floral isle]

Spy can inform a Demon, Yaggababble and Lil Monsta is weird with it, Witch can just kill them

[empty rivet]

Same goes for ravenkeeper :/

[floral isle]

Yes that's why I don't want Ravenkeeper either

[empty rivet]

If we going to have a demon bane let it be something powerful and confirming

Farmer and Banshe are my main replacements thou

[floral isle]

I'm arguing for Demon banes being bad here entirely

[empty rivet]

Yeah

But why would a good player lie here then

If we going for the tb deal

[floral isle]

The environment is built for players telling the truth and evil surviving

[empty rivet]

Yeah its a much different info space that tb

[floral isle]

Ravenkeeper kinda sticks out here

Plague Doctor is the only other character that would want to lie but as an outsider I think it fits better

[empty rivet]

Banshee has the benefit of confirming demon type pretty fast thou

Banshe day proc its something the evil team would super fear

[floral isle]

day proc banshee is yag or lm so that is a fair point but I'm still not super keen on it

[empty rivet]

Yeah i am just saying that sometimes having a lying townfolk its important even if for some reason i belive they would be weak thou...

[floral isle]

I think it's Artist or Juggler rn in my spot for replacement

[floral isle]

I don't really agree since this environment is so honest anyways

[empty rivet]

Counter play by the good team works best when the evil teams falls into traps and does bad plays because they didnt read the room better

[floral isle]

Oracle is not as OP as it seems tbf because Spy worlds

[empty rivet]

At least in TB its like that, i dont see how it doesnt apply here

[floral isle]

It'd encourage the Vig to kill a Spy too because they essentially poison 2 townsfolk for the price of one

[floral isle]

Atheist actually already provides alot of trap potential

I've seen good players lie about being the Atheist in order to make evils back out of the claim

[lunar raptor]

i'm still kinda thinking Soldier would be cool but maybe that is just because i'm such a Soldier fan

[empty rivet]

Banshee or soldier would be fire i think

[surreal torrent]

i hadn’t really thought about it but yeah rk is kinda pathetic

[floral isle]

i do see the vision but i kinda want this to feel like every good player has a part of the puzzle in their hands

[empty rivet]

Soldier its the wall of china

[surreal torrent]

artist??

[lunar raptor]

I see I see 🤔

[empty rivet]

If confirmed good they would only die to godfather kills

[surreal torrent]

witch

[floral isle]

artist is maybe pushing it but yeah 😭

[surreal torrent]

i don’t really like savant tbh but i think that’s a personal thing

[empty rivet]

I love savant

[floral isle]

i do think Savant is 2nd to go