Hmmmmm wait
#Binary Supernovae (World Cup Finalist)
neon schooner
So it turns out that pois widow xaan are the only poisoning minions (and wiz and boffin but no)
Pois is a hard no
Widow would warp the script too much I think
So we're left with misinfo outsiders
PM and SH are sketchy with summoner. The djinnlegger makes it less bad but I'm not convinced that it's fine
So Drunk is the obvious choice
Especially because we want droison, not misreg
Misreg is nice I guess but it doesn't do what it needs to do here
The problem with drunk is what do we pair it with
We need outsider mod, we're not getting it from demons, and I'm not about to do boffin balloonist (innk is here)
This script definitely can't handle sentinel drunk
Which just leaves godfather
And baron
Baron synergizes with an already evilsided djinnlegger rule
A 9p baron game would have checks watch twice as many outsiders as townsfolk
Godfather works great with many of these outsiders (tinker, butler, golem, moonchild) but with drunk can kill by surprise
Normally this is a whatever dynamic but here it can be devastating
However it might be the best option
Gf-1 is justified here I think, these outsiders are solid minion bluffs
I'm worried invest is too strong without xaan
??
young loom
I'm worried invest is too strong without xaan
given that it's an evil-sided djinn rule it's probably okay?
and killing minions ≠ killing a demon, which good needs to win
neon schooner
Yeah but it can mean killing a summoner
Otherwise I'd more readily agree
Summoning pukka does help
young loom
I mean it doesn't end the game
neon schooner
Yeah but it's a major setback in context
young loom
And yeah summoning Pukka means that you have a bailout so long as you live one day
fringe crescent
Going by "this script is only winnable for good if the ST forgets to add a minion" I'm gonna say both invest summoner and pm summoner are fine
fringe crescent
And like, the -1 minion game seemed pretty close even
fringe crescent
PM summoner is more a fun issue rather than a balance issue
You're still a full living +evil
neon schooner
And actively a thrall
fringe crescent
The balance point for full living +evils is stuff like "abilities that are often negative utility for evil" and "identifying a single evil player ever causes good to win on the spot"
neon schooner
I... guess that's true
lone marten
just figure out whose puzzledrunk 😎
neon schooner
So like this?
fringe crescent
great name, also yes
gleaming hollow
vati script try not to have godfather challenge
calm furnace
what vatiscripts are there other than CC
fringe crescent
vati script try not to have godfather challenge
That one is Hystrex's fault
fringe crescent
what vatiscripts are there other than CC
funnily enough neither of the scripts I'm most actively working on have godfather
but I've made a lot of short-lived scripting attempts
calm furnace
@neon schooner thoughts on VI?
btw imo the play is,
(Fool, NWM, General, Chambermaid, Savant Monk, Golem)
final anchor
Savant doesn’t have too much to pick up on here imo
calm furnace
This attempts to make town as powerful as possible
since I think it's what good needs rn
neon schooner
<@670814639373811712> thoughts on VI?
Too much synergy, doesn't really do what I need a townsfolk to do here
neon schooner
<:fool:586693971112361994><:nightwatchman:939622212036616292><:general:799483064...
Fool AND nwm??
neon schooner
<:fool:586693971112361994><:nightwatchman:939622212036616292><:general:799483064...
Also nwm is in the pool exclusively for xaan, I don't think I'd want it with godfather
Monk is something I'm thinking about but not too hard yk
Honestly
I kinda want drunk anyways bc it's voiceless
calm furnace
Also nwm is in the pool exclusively for xaan, I don't think I'd want it with god...
nwm is assuming xaan is here bc I'm not altering the evil team
neon schooner
Ok then yeah
calm furnace
Monk is something I'm thinking about but not too hard yk
I'm trying to have some countermeasures to evil just steamrolling good by just killing everyone
that's the same thing wiht fool to a much lesser extent
calm furnace
Fool isn't actually gonna do much
yeah Fool is for confirmation
fringe crescent
I kinda want drunk anyways bc it's voiceless
I think this is too strong, though
You have too many players actively supporting evil worlds from d1
calm furnace
mm real
Xaan 1 is too strong for the same reason
literally everyone is supporting evil worlds on day 1
fringe crescent
Other roles that amplify evil voices have some sort of trade-off in dead evils or late onset or both, or are Typhon which can't amplify evil voices past a whisper
BSN just straightforwardly gives an insanely powerful +evil with full faith and credit, with the balance it's a second flagbearer
But it needs a lot to make that double flagbearer status exploitable for town still
Drunk being silent means it's functionally another evil
neon schooner
Well there's a fine line somewhere and I'm trying to hit it
I don't want people to be certain of their info just because they lived another day
But since this is both info AND decelerators it needs to be exactly droison
Binary Supernovae (World Cup Finalist)
I mean
How bad is pukka as solo droison
Like how many worlds are there where it poisons and doesn't kill the next night
...exactly innkeeper?
Oh ok no that's just correct
lone marten
at the same time
maybe low droison is a price you have to pay when you have a whole extra demon?
neon schooner
Maybe????
I do really like pukka on info roles here, you no longer have the dynamic where you can just reverse info from the night before you died
On that version of the script, gambler has no misinfo whatsoever provided the innk isn't choosing them
neon schooner
Drunk being silent means it's functionally another evil
can you expand on this
lone marten
The drunk is a good player supporting evil worlds
You have +1 evil player supporting evil worlds
And with the drunk that is +2 players supporting evil worlds off their info
neon schooner
sure but that's how misinfo works
wait i just realized what does puzzlemaster learn on this script 😭
just one of the demons i guess
*role puzzlemaster
surreal condorBOT
*role puzzlemaster
neon schooner
oh ty
im not pushing a version like this through until i test it with an experienced group
final anchor
That’s kinda the point I think
calm furnace
That’s kinda the point I think
I'm not sure if good should need to deal with outsiders that synergize with the rule to hurt the good team more
final anchor
True it’s quite damaging
fringe crescent
can you expand on this
The Drunk is a good player who untrackably (in this info landscape) serves as an evil voice. TB makes this balanced because it doesn't have any other +evils and it's not too hard to track the drunk/potential for a drunk. Many other customs make it work with +evils or less-trackable drunks one way or another, but it's inherently somewhat more fragile than e.g. a Puzzlemaster would be. You're at the absolute ceiling for +evils -- every +evil in the real game is far milder than [+1 Demon] -- and have exactly "Gambler with a native doublekill" to solve a drunk on.
You do need misinfo of some sort but Drunk is actually pretty heavy with hard +evils
Also while gf/drunk is cool and fun it makes gf-1 generally less viable and the balance point of this script really really needs gf-1
prime dagger
R.I.P. moonchild (2025-2025)
Grandmother + Summoner could be rough ngl
At least Summoner + Magician works
neon schooner
grandmother with no grimpeeker?
This is... perfectly fine???
ESPECIALLY with drunk
neon schooner
I'm not sure if good should need to deal with outsiders that synergize with the ...
Butler is core, I think it's a really interesting challenge here that the good team is able to work around
neon schooner
Grandmother + Summoner could be rough ngl
Hey it's better than steward summoner
neon schooner
The Drunk is a good player who untrackably (in this info landscape) serves as an...
I mean, it's not quite an evil voice? I get what you're saying though, it's in that direction
neon schooner
R.I.P. moonchild (2025-2025)
Moonchild is cool and all but golem does it better and too much overlap will synergize too hard
neon schooner
Puzzlemaster has such major implicationsssssss
neon schooner
I'd be putting it here swapping out mc
Innk gambler fool magi summoner are all interactions
It really affects how evil plays
They need to bait the puzzleguess
...maybe this is fine???
Evil can find the puzzledrunk with relative ease for around half of town
But I don't think they can do that in a single day
Days are long (I sure hope) which helps, but still
Oh also pukka adds the dynamic that maybe you wait a day to puzzleguess
-# ...like One Day More :D
wait the pukka can poison the PM to transfer the kill power to the puzzle drunk demon
Reason #17 not to summon double pukka (it will happen anyway)
neon schooner
Interactions on this version feel airtight
fathom python
About to play this. Does the extra demon come at the expense of a TF, or a minion?
prime dagger
About to play this. Does the extra demon come at the expense of a TF, or a minio...
A townsfolk
fathom python
Thanks. Do the two demons wake together the first night ? Assuming no summoner
final anchor
Yes, they learn each other
neon schooner
They do!! But as of a couple hours ago I'm considering the implications of having them not learn each other
If you wanna run it where demons only learn minions (and the magician), go for it as long as you tell your players in advance. And tell me how it goes!!
If you just wanna play the script in its current state, they do learn each other
fathom python
A townsfolk
Could it be instead of an outsider?
neon schooner
^^^
If you have a xaan then it can replace an outsider, but what's really happening is that the xaan is replacing an outsider with a Townsfolk and the djinnlegger is replacing that townsfolk with a Demon
(gf will do something similar if and when I make that change)
prime dagger
The way I think of it is if you have a baron who is adding 2 outsiders, but the +2 outsiders are replacing outsiders, it doesn't do much.
fringe crescent
*wait the pukka can poison the PM to transfer the kill power to the puzzle drunk...
Which is cool and based
(and intended)
I think you're really underestimating how much gf/drunk disincentivizes gf-1 and the balance implications that has for this script
This script neeeeeeds the ST to be comfortable doing gf-1 a lot
But gf-1 with drunk can feel like a thrall because you're not creating bluffspace
It can work but it's not gonna work on the [+1 Demon] script
pm incentivizes gf-1 (for the 15% of STs who ever do it a single time in their entire ST careers) because of its unique context
neon schooner
(and intended)
it is now
neon schooner
I think you're really underestimating how much gf/drunk disincentivizes gf-1 and...
this is possible
neon schooner
this is what im currently rotating where demons dont learn each other
tempted to put sc on so the minions keep the demons apart 😭
calm furnace
this is what im currently rotating where demons dont learn each other
I thought you can’t change the rule?
neon schooner
cant change the wording of the rule
but the base rules of the game arent clear on this
i've asked if i can change the HTR
no response yet
but if i can then that's something im seriously considering
if i cant then it's fine
digital island
but the base rules of the game arent clear on this
isnt there precedent from old riot
young loom
isnt there precedent from old riot
old riot woke together im pretty sure
at least that's how I used to run old riot
neon schooner
Old riot is no longer part of the game so I can pretend it's different
The real answer is that authors got to clarify the rule in a HTR and I think this is a small enough change that it's still true to the ability text
neon schooner
im back to this version tbh
it's probably a good thing for the good team to trust their info
if evil really needs to leave someone alive and still throw doubt on their info, claim philo
philo does a lot for this script actually
it's both protection and info which is amazing, it pings math, it counters ojo magi, it buffs fool
i definitely wanna run it before pushing it tho
seam is really strong without xaan
maybe it's fine???
plus evil has the power to kill players the night after they get important info (imp and ojo can both do this just differently) to frame the info as poisoned
basically it's the poisoner dynamic but the only poisoner is a pukka
basically
good needs to trust their info right now to push an execution through, but the only info they can't trust is the info they have right now
it'll be trusted later, barring philo and innk
but also everyone is lying to avoid the ojo and separately lying to avoid the pukka and separately lying to avoid their info being pushed as pukka poisoned
which, if im correct about how this plays out (not a guarantee), means that the first execution or two will be a little haphazard (like how it always is) and then after that the good team can come together and pool their info to find a demon
neon schooner
GOOD WON
it felt like a balanced game
i ran it where demons dont learn each other, that felt fine
they figured it out d2 anyway
in all fairness there was no info econ manip
butler is core 🔥 it worked so incredibly well, and they figured out that their master (the mastermind) was evil
FT straight yesses
math died n2
the fool was executed d1
the ojo got a little outed
but that's what selfkilling is for
oracle 0 2 was interesting
good was able to solve with no night protection at all (fool was spent on an exe), but was able to solve off info and socials
fringe crescent
It's almost like 10p isn't unplayably evilsided to the point you have to drop from it every time 😎
calm furnace
It's almost like 10p isn't unplayably evilsided to the point you have to drop fr...
the times where I do drop from 10s (kinda rare tbh), it's not only bc "it's a 10"
prime dagger
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1348994821796266055/1351079221039988826...
I think good need the investigator tbh
Also, what procs math?
Pukka + night death prevention?
calm furnace
pukka, innkeeper, exorcist, soldier
prime dagger
It's MM detection iirc
So yeah
It's much better w/o Xaan ngl
Gambler feels slightly awkward to bag-build around tbh
I also like how the virtually no misinfo is what balances 2 demons
prime dagger
+1 evil giving misinfo
Sure, but I more meant from the perspective of a good player who receives info
lone marten
True
neon schooner
pukka, innkeeper, exorcist, soldier
Also assassin philo and fool yeah
It has stuff to ping it now
neon schooner
I also like how the virtually no misinfo is what balances 2 demons
Yeah that's kinda funny
neon schooner
It's much better w/o Xaan ngl
Every townsfolk is lol
neon schooner
the times where I do drop from 10s (kinda rare tbh), it's not only bc "it's a 10...
When she's a 10 but she's a priestess on shrooms (idk what's going on with the flavor)
neon schooner
I think good need the investigator tbh
I'm worried about invest + summoner without horizontal misinfo, and philo invest tends to just be optimal (also without xaan)
What would you replace for it
I have smth in mind but I wanna hear other opinions
Also they executed 2 minions back to back, I'm not sure invest is a necessity. They executed the fool and then killed exclusively evils
prime dagger
Wait
Is drunk not needed?
Cause there is no negative OM in base 1 outsider
Like, who's actually doing GF -1 to get 0 outsiders
neon schooner
your demon is confirmed by outsider count
calm furnace
"You've made me into a thrall"
neon schooner
(well, one)
confirmation mimicry is not a thrall
not knowing x hurts but i'll just give like 4 outsider bluffs and the demons will get the idea
what i would not do in xaan 0 in base 0
young loom
I would be annoyed
do you think the vig's outsider mod is a strict downside on s&v
calm furnace
do you think the vig's outsider mod is a strict downside on s&v
no
vig’s O mod on s&v is contextually good
prime dagger
Most of the xaan's ability is poisoning people?
Sorry godfather
Idk which one we are talking about
Same thing tho
young loom
idk gf-1 in a base 1 is very reasonable
neon schooner
yeah like xaan 0 in base 2 is maybe pushing it
but in base 1 it's powerful and necessary
regardless, im going with gf now
and gf-1 at base 1 is extremely reasonable
butler and golem are great bluffs
tinker and moonchild are solid too
calm furnace
having played this script
holy shit this felt so evil sided
like, if on d2 the Butler was executed, evil instantly wins
this was also while the demon coordination fucked up evil (caused a dc) and one demon wasn't able to kill
fringe crescent
Didn't you only win because a good player self-nommed in f3
calm furnace
Didn't you only win because a good player self-nommed in f3
art didn't
noms weren't open
he actually nommed dani
got 3 then we lifted
I genuinely think that the only reason good had a chance was because a traveler confirmed the soldier as good
neon schooner
holy shit this felt *so* evil sided
you shouldve seen it before 😭
neon schooner
like, if on d2 the Butler was executed, evil instantly wins
yeah but good has the agency to not (usually)
i think that while philo golem was funny it was a huge mistake
that prob cancelled out the good trav
fringe crescent
It did mean you were stuck all game as an evil who couldn't nominate without being able to bait misexecutions
final anchor
Philo golem can work but it’s an outsider for a reason unfortunately
neon schooner
if ur gonna philo golem do it after the real golem has punched
calm furnace
I think it was Dire’s fault for manifesting it in kib
Dire knows us, its much less of a guess than you think
final anchor
No everything he said was very sensible I just think it’s funny that it was right
calm furnace
that prob cancelled out the good trav
I think traveler confirming the soldier helped good much more than philo-golem hurt good
neon schooner
good almost won 😭
1 more vote on either demon and it was over
the soldier tanked like 4 kills i love it here
"i felt like it was a coinflip between markus and vae"
good had the demons cornered
just not quite hard enough
i love soldier here
inner crag
Hohh... interesting
calm furnace
soldier is what makes games...
close
partially because I think that on this script demons should be going to TPKs or virtual TPKs
(and they both, have more kills than town, and more players to do it)
soldier makes that impossible without extra effort
neon schooner
partially because I think that on this script demons should be going to TPKs or ...
I mean it's high risk high reward because you have 2 flagbearers
Is it worth it anyway? Yeah usually
calm furnace
I mean it's high risk high reward because you have 2 flagbearers
I think that 2 flagbearers is like, Not That Big of a downside (this is like, after one game of BSN tbc)
neon schooner
Yeah in practice it's not that huge
But if you're trying to TPK it becomes a problem
Games usually end with only 1 demon alive
calm furnace
But if you're trying to TPK it becomes a problem
not really? like on day 2 of that game, (7 alive) both teams had 2 flagbearers
if Teddy or Art die, evil wins
calm furnace
But if you're trying to TPK it becomes a problem
the point of TPKing is that it doesn’t matter that you have 2 flagbearers bc the third player won’t nom either of them
neon schooner
Sure but evil flagbearers are more vulnerable than good flagbearers by design. With the extra evil this is less true than normal but it's still definitely true
calm furnace
the good flagbearers didn’t know they were flagbearers
neon schooner
the point of TPKing is that it doesn’t matter that you have 2 flagbearers bc the...
Yeah but as you get to that point it's much easier to get caught
It's evil sided, I do agree there
calm furnace
I think I’d need to play more of this script to understand it deeper but I think that the 6 changes all need to make the good team stronger
neon schooner
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1348994821796266055/1351079221039988826...
This is the current version
4 changes
Invest is the only other role I could possibly want on but I don't like it here without xaan
And I don't like it with philo
calm furnace
This is the current version
I think Magician should come off if Demons learn each other
neon schooner
?????
Magician is like the biggest counter to the djinnlegger
Magi soldier and ft have been the strongest townsfolk in practice
lone marten
Cool!
calm furnace
Magi soldier and ft have been the strongest townsfolk in practice
interesting, I would not expect Magi to be on that list, how has it been in playtesting?
neon schooner
Evil can't coordinate well for as long as the magi is alive
Which means they can't vote as well
Which is one of their main strengths
I remember watching the kinky clocktower vod of this and philo magi was strong there
ruby lodge
How's soldier strong tho
neon schooner
Evil just can't get rid of it
All they get is assassin and gf, and if those are spent all they can do is frame the soldier
ruby lodge
then just do frame?
why would bother getting rid of a character that has no info anyway
neon schooner
then just do frame?
Not so easy when there's so little deaths
The soldier soft confirms themself
In the game from last night it was good's main chance to win
ruby lodge
hopefully confirms themselves
neon schooner
Because evil couldn't TPK
ruby lodge
there are too many death mod to make soldier fail to be confirmed even hit by demons
calm furnace
How's soldier strong tho
only? livetext game of BSN was close because of the scapegoat confirmed soldier
if it wasn’t there evil would’ve steamrolled
calm furnace
Scapegoat confirmation is basically nothing
woeful vector
@neon schooner I ran BS yesterday with 8 players:
- Mastermind win
- Good win
- TPK (with Summoner)
I also ran it w Demons not learning each other immediately and the extra Demon being able to replace an Outsider
all around it felt good
neon schooner
GOOD WON??? wait tell me more
calm furnace
I also ran it w Demons not learning each other immediately and the extra Demon b...
that hurts good I fear (the outsider replacement)
neon schooner
Which version of the script
Demon replacing an outsider is...... interesting
Something something OM copypasta
neon schooner
I also ran it w Demons not learning each other immediately and the extra Demon b...
For both parts of this, what precisely did you run? There's still a tiny bit of room for interpretation and I crave data
ALSO ty for running it :) hope you had fun
(and do you have grim pics 👁️👁️)
calm furnace
Something something OM copypasta
my problem is that Sentinel, even a half Sentinel like -1 to 0 outsiders hurts good
woeful vector
that hurts good I fear (the outsider replacement)
No i know
i ruled it like that bc it allows the Demon to bluff as an outsider
final anchor
Godfather allows that anyway
woeful vector
okay
sure
lmao
but i ruled it as that anyway so
tbf this is before i saw this message lmao
woeful vector
For both parts of this, what precisely did you run? There's still a tiny bit of ...
in terms of the setups?
woeful vector
Godfather allows that anyway
and also Xaan was the O-mod
final anchor
and also Xaan was the O-mod
Oh you ran an old version
That decision makes more sense then
woeful vector
yeah the original
final anchor
Ah yeah
young loom
it's the one that tpi's gonna be running
neon schooner
in terms of the setups?
Did demon info look like:
Wake up the ojo, give them bluffs, tell them the minion & the magician are their minions, put them to sleep, rinse & repeat for the imp
And was it [-1 or -0 Outsiders]
woeful vector
yeah exactly
So you wake each Demon separately and give Minions and Bluffs
and the setup was [-1 or -0 Outsiders. +1 Demon]
neon schooner
Ok ty
Now tell me how good won 👁️👁️👁️👁️👁️👁️
I am very normal about the balance of this script
final anchor
Should the demons get the same bluffs or separate bluffs?
neon schooner
I don't think I've seen a game yet where they get identical bluffs, though idk that that ends well
Some overlap is fine
final anchor
Ok, cool
final anchor
No I was just curious
neon schooner
Ah ok
final anchor
When I ran it I was unsure
Went with some but not all the same
And they both took the same bluff anyway 😭
woeful vector
I don't think I've seen a game yet where they get identical bluffs, though idk t...
i mean
the times when i did give identical bluffs evil won
sooo
💀
neon schooner
oh lol
woeful vector
summoner exed on day 2 and didn't summon a pukka before
and the Imp got obliterated the next day
neon schooner
ah ok
neon schooner
good was so close yet so far 😭 oracle summoned into pukka n3, enough people were pushing on gojo but then fire said he was philo grandma confirming him
anyways ty @twilit sonnet for running but ur insane for xaan 3 here
high turretBOT
Gave +1 Thanks to @twilit sonnet (current: #1007 - 19)
final anchor
Xaan 3 wow
twilit sonnet
I thought it would be interesting
neon schooner
good win :) despite the golem punching me (the soldier) d1
neon schooner
again!!!
fringe crescent
parker found the secret
twilit sonnet
twilit sonnet
parker found the secret
apparently just like
Hystrex changing the script
made it work
also math is OP
Math is better than Flowergirl(who uses FG to mean Fang Gu cmon) on here
young loom
the ever-present "fg jump"
twilit sonnet
Flowergirl is 10
twilit sonnet
the ever-present "fg jump"
… but just Fang Gu jump
It’s the same characters as Imp Starpass
young loom
people just say starpass though
twilit sonnet
Yeah The lobby is on fire rn
twilit sonnet
Get in there axo
young loom
neon schooner
@celest citrus hi btw
fringe crescent
That's the ideal time of day to play botc I don't see the problem
floral arch
Imagine sleeping
neon schooner
not convinced this script works at 7
twilit sonnet
not convinced this script works at 7
Why did you try that?
ruby lodge
Convinced this script doesn't work at 7
twilit sonnet
I had a good reason for stalling at 7
ruby lodge
It's similar to how psycho - LoT - SW is 100% winrate at 7 unless good has gimmicks
neon schooner
Why did you try that?
wanted to rack a game 🤷
yeah the extra evil is quite oppresive with 7
a single wrong good vote and evil wins
alex voted on koru and that was bad enough
the only way good wins there is to full send which is very difficult
it felt pretty balanced at higher player counts tho!!! fire and i were both playing super hard and both happened to be good both games so that might be a factor (especially bc this is very much a script where good needs to understand the assignment), but it definitely didn't feel oppressively evilsided
twilit sonnet
it felt pretty balanced at higher player counts tho!!! fire and i were both play...
Finally, balance
I did try to throw a curveball with the ojo kill
Sad it didn’t work
neon schooner
good win :) despite the golem punching me (the soldier) d1
the math 1 combined with the exorcist was very strong but evil was super close to the TPK, assassin stabbed the exorcist on the same night as the ojo
neon schooner
again!!!
we were NOT confident about mastermind but it was a world being built, it was hard to place the math 1 (it was an ojo doublekill on the fool... no comment on that)
twilit sonnet
And not (demon bluff)
neon schooner
evil very realistically couldve won both those games
twilit sonnet
we were NOT confident about mastermind but it was a world being built, it was ha...
I mean, there was an FT ping on them
And the chef 2
neon schooner
chef 2 was fake 😭
neon schooner
we ended up full sending the mastermind exe when evil rose up on me. noob was also DCing me
twilit sonnet
True
neon schooner
Didn’t make them look incredibly good
right
twilit sonnet
Noob was annoyed with the bluffs until he learned the other demon got 3 other bluffs
… that was kinda funny ngl
neon schooner
not convinced this script works at 7
good had us tied up enough to stop the TPK but then a single good player voted ever so slightly wrong and we just rose up
the pukka also 50/50'd wrong and poison killed the mm
twilit sonnet
Ojo tips:
Don’t pick your demon bluff.
You’re not gonna get a good kill out of that
Turns out
neon schooner
wow
i should clarify that none of these games used the alt evil info rule
i think in the grand scheme of things it doesnt make a massive difference?
maybe it would make it work a little better at 7p idk
twilit sonnet
i should clarify that none of these games used the alt evil info rule
When did this happen
neon schooner
ive been running it/telling others to on and off
i decided not to today
but it's been suggested and run where demons dont learn each other
twilit sonnet
… The demons aren’t talking to eachother anyway
and they don’t ask the other for bluffs
neon schooner
in this last game the other demon pinged me into a chat immediately lol
we had the same bluffs
ruby lodge
… The demons aren’t talking to eachother anyway
Demon double claiming each other belike:
twilit sonnet
Demon double claiming each other belike:
Oh no
I gave them 6 bluffs total
The first demon just had Golem/Soldier/Magician
ruby lodge
that's horrifying
twilit sonnet
The second had Chef/Seamstress/Exorcist
twilit sonnet
that's horrifying
… so they doubleclaimed the math
ruby lodge
i think soldier is a better bluff...
twilit sonnet
True
neon schooner
The first demon just had Golem/Soldier/Magician
magician is a little hmmmm but the others are totally legit bluffs (ignoring that it was gf+1)
so yeah just soldier
it's a valid bluff
twilit sonnet
Which is effectively just 4 bluffs
ruby lodge
Soldier belike: "if you don't kill me i won't die so don't kill me"
twilit sonnet
which is enough
ruby lodge
nah golem is bluffable (hopefully)
neon schooner
putting golem in an environment where it's bluffable is a conscious decision
neon schooner
between pukka fool and being twice as likely to hit the demon
twilit sonnet
WAIT I’M THE GOLEM KILL THIS DUDE GUYS
neon schooner
also mastermind
ruby lodge
bluff golem, push someone, act like 100% minion
neon schooner
act 10000% miniony and nom your own demon with a golem claim 🤩
twilit sonnet
Honestly could’ve worked that game
final anchor
nah golem is bluffable (hopefully)
Just have a philo golem
ruby lodge
"but they read good to me"
neon schooner
people were talking about philo butler and honestly i love that
ruby lodge
it's sad
twilit sonnet
Butler is so incredibly damaging (in comparison to TB)
because of the shift in vote economy
neon schooner
thinking about a whole bunch of games, i feel like each good character has its "main character" moments here. every game im like "and that's why golem is on here" "fortune teller feels great here" "butler is doing its job super well" "math does exactly what i want it to" etc
which is a great feeling :)
ruby lodge
i'd rather philo philo butler and start breaking the voting rule
neon schooner
most good characters just kinda act as normal most of the time but they have their moments when they pop off
neon schooner
it seems to be less opaque here than snv lol (or maybe that's just me having hyperfixated on this script for 72 consecutive hours)
twilit sonnet
Actually what would be the optimal Artist question on Binary Supernovae
twilit sonnet
it would be difficult to craft because of summoner
Asked d3
neon schooner
i think you ask if the demon is in about a third of the grim
lemme number crunch actually (we'll see if im too tired or not)
twilit sonnet
lemme number crunch actually (we'll see if im too tired or not)
I don’t recommend that
It took me 6 hours
Last time I numbers crunched for a character
neon schooner
you could do "are there an even number of demons on [side of the grim]" lol
that's 50/50
twilit sonnet
Not really
neon schooner
ok i AM too tired to number crunch but i believe i have done this before and it's optimized at 29%
twilit sonnet
7player(6)
neon schooner
"is there a demon among these players?" where you choose players as close to 29% of the grim (not you) as possible. this should be 50/50
one thing ive also noticed is that there's a lot this script doesn't have. no public claims, no freeform info, no science, no vote/nom gimmicks, no madness, no misreg, etc
i think that's a strength, good doesn't need any more to focus on
it's just death mod/ongoing info/pukka poison/summoner
(and a couple stray townsfolk)
twilit sonnet
What do you mean no science
neon schooner
fool is weird
twilit sonnet
Fool science /j
neon schooner
summoner makes it bad science most of the time
twilit sonnet
Fool is bad science in general
neon schooner
yeah but for totally different reasons
twilit sonnet
I mean on BMR the answer is “DA lol”
ruby lodge
on any other script is "nah just bad"
neon schooner
foolscience on d3 is a genuine strat if the fool is an evil candidate
it's unjunkable
twilit sonnet
Fool insta dies
neon schooner
if you think they're good tho it's just wasting an execution
twilit sonnet
ojo
neon schooner
well yeah
but it's still confirmation
it helps break down chef worlds for example
twilit sonnet
True
neon schooner
if the seam is unspent it's huge
twilit sonnet
Also demons aren’t self killing lately
neon schooner
mhm
ruby lodge
if the seam is unspent it's huge
seam: learns yes
twilit sonnet
It’s weird
neon schooner
Also demons aren’t self killing lately
yeah 🤷 TPK seems to be the overwhelming strat
ruby lodge
ofc it would be
twilit sonnet
And then they get creamed by math
ruby lodge
i mean consider how they have 2 kills and +1 evil
it's like LoT + psycho but free seat
TPK would be op
neon schooner
i think of it as LoT but shab
ruby lodge
yeah but LoT shab isn't real
neon schooner
yeah TPKing is strong but good is also strong
ruby lodge
LoT psycho actually appeared and steamrolled
neon schooner
the new version means a lot of info can be trusted
ruby lodge
the new version means a lot of info can be trusted
+1 evil still
neon schooner
this is true
ruby lodge
it's equivalent to mez misinfo
ruby lodge
mez is also coordinated d2
neon schooner
this is the current version of the script that has been tested but not officially pushed (per comp rules)
ruby lodge
hope it's balanced
gleaming hollow
~~this is the current version of the script that has been tested but not officia...
when are you able to apply it to the World Cup
pure dagger
If demons learn each other, does Magician show up as minion or demon to them
young loom
Shows up as a Minion
pure dagger
when are you able to apply it to the World Cup
They can submit changes after showmatches, I figure they are updated after the first round?
young loom
the Demons wake together the same way Minions do
neon schooner
when are you able to apply it to the World Cup
Like arrow said, after the first match
neon schooner
~~this is the current version of the script that has been tested but not officia...
Wait this image is actually just wrong
Still has PM
prime dagger
Why PM over drunk?
neon schooner
Nope, moonchild
neon schooner
PM plays nicer with the outsider mod and isn't utter garbage with math
Nah ur fine
But then again drunk plays better with summoner and grandma
prime dagger
If you're keeping math, PM is probably better than drunk, yh
ruby lodge
actually recluse works better with golem
neon schooner
It does yeah
I initially didn't have recluse on here bc it's essentially a policy excecution with the djinnlegger, but that's not true anymore with gf
i dont... love it? but it might add some necessary misinfo
ruby lodge
how's it policy exe
neon schooner
it interacts with: chef empath math ft oracle (ew) gambler seamstress philo (by proxy) golem moonchild
ruby lodge
tbh policy exe in this script is just off-meta
neon schooner
how's it policy exe
you're not gonna have a way to tell a recluse from a demon and it's either gonna be an info sponge that you worry about the entire game or you execute it
neon schooner
i do think gf justifies it. math too
prime dagger
you're not gonna have a way to tell a recluse from a demon and it's either gonna...
*in which case 5 people die that night thanks to godfather
high turretBOT
Gave +1 Thanks to @neon schooner (current: #176 - 256)
neon schooner
it's a question of whether or not it's better for the script than any other outsiders
ruby lodge
i mean there's always someone who's spongy in a game
prime dagger
Recluse could work
neon schooner
i mean there's always someone who's spongy in a game
thats true
ruby lodge
recluse just kinda lock the sponge
and bully some unlucky duds on n1
math : wat i got a 4 on n1
neon schooner
it interacts with: chef empath math ft oracle (ew) gambler seamstress philo (by ...
looking at this im cool with all those interactions except oracle. math is notably the odd one out here
prime dagger
I quite like it tbh
ruby lodge
recluse: *dies
oracle: *dies while living
neon schooner
hmmm gf oracle math make the recluse want to live
lone marten
sometimes there is nothing perfect though
do you prefer recluse oracle or puzzlemaster summoner
ruby lodge
fr
neon schooner
i prefer moonchild 😇
prime dagger
It stops town from instantly murdering recluses, which is nice, but here, town doesn't want to execute any good players so it's probably less impactful.
ruby lodge
you just want evil to try harder
lone marten
If you want Moonchild
neon schooner
like this is evilsided anyway
i think it's balanced with the changes??????? hard to tell for sure ofc
lone marten
then you can go for moonchild.
lone marten
what is the winrate looking like
ruby lodge
i think pm would be significantly stronger since +1 demon
prime dagger
This script is effectively balanced at everything but b0 I think?
lone marten
and 7p
neon schooner
this is the current version of the script that has been tested but not officially pushed (per comp rules)
pure dagger
7 is b0
ruby lodge
ngl this one looks nice
ruby lodge
if you start counting from 0 that is
neon schooner
what is the winrate looking like
i think good has won more often?? lemme do a full check
notably 2 of them were d1 wins (including where a demon forgot that executing the other demon would mean they lose)
ruby lodge
bruh
neon schooner
notably 2 of them were d1 wins (including where a demon forgot that executing th...
see this message
prime dagger
Ah
neon schooner
btw
good has allegedly won twice on the original version but evil has won much more
undertaker?????????????????????
it does a lot of what oracle does but it works great with recluse
i think it's probably bluffable? it doesnt need to make up as much info
it's a mastermind detector and can confirm previous info
floral arch
This kinda goes hard
neon schooner
not confident on -tinker btw
all of tinker/golem/mc/butler feel core
i could add recluse as a 5th tbh. but then that's more bluffspace
i dont feel amazing adding more bluffspace when it's such a perfect bluff
floral arch
all of tinker/golem/mc/butler feel core
Yeah, they all feel really well.
Totally legit and certainly not terrible idea: register Recluse as the Demon to Djinnlegger and Mastermind to trigger MM day :D
neon schooner
TRUE
mm day with a godfather kill oh no
oh hey summoner also makes it less bad that UT can be a hard bluff at times. you can simply give them a night of good info
like fool
young loom
undertaker?????????????????????
unbluffable 😭
neon schooner
you get like 2 pieces of info then starpass
yeah id need to see it in practice i think
you could totally be right here
young loom
i think oracle is fine here tbh, recluse fucking with it is what it's there for
(plus you can only have six changes between rounds and keeping oracle constant frees you elsewhere)
neon schooner
i think oracle is fine here tbh, recluse fucking with it is what it's there for
oracle is one of the main mm detectors and if a recluse claim is dead it fully cant be that anymore
ut can still do that
calm furnace
I do not like UT here
neon schooner
idk what else could go in that slot? detecting mm is important, being ongoing info is more important
calm furnace
you get like 2 pieces of info then starpass
right until the d1 exe says "not revealing for UTs"
young loom
ut here gives the same vibe it does on like deep bluff nine
calm furnace
and you start crying
young loom
like you have summoner which is kinda diet mez so it's not awful awful (and innkeeper can help a bit too)
neon schooner
right until the d1 exe says "not revealing for UTs"
literally bluff that you saw the godfather or smth
young loom
right until the d1 exe says "not revealing for UTs"
summoner
young loom
literally bluff that you saw the godfather or smth
good social read:
neon schooner
then you starpass the next night bc you were definitely pukka poisoned :sotrue:
young loom
being any other evil character:
neon schooner
great, get executed (or be a pukka and be sad i guess lol)
calm furnace
be ojo or pukka and just cry
neon schooner
yeah ok ut is far from perfect
young loom
be ojo or pukka and just cry
tbf you can selfkill as ojo
neon schooner
nah ojo can self kill very well
calm furnace
tbf you can selfkill as ojo
sure you can self kill
young loom
if you selfkill that's you not getting executed
calm furnace
but I think self killing in BSN is delaying the inevitable
neon schooner
ive seen it work
neon schooner
no it's not 😭
calm furnace
please no
twilit sonnet
Trust
young loom
cannibal having the chef/empmath superposition goes hard
twilit sonnet
Trust isn't good
Trust= /j
neon schooner
cannibal having the chef/empmath superposition goes hard
yes but have you considered that this isnt a cannibal script
calm furnace
😭
nerdguy
there's a script called Trust
which has Cannibal which is unbluffable
neon schooner
this is a bmrlike not a tomblike (but theres no science so it's neither)
young loom
cannibal buckets:
number
ft
innkeeper
gambler
seamstress
philo
choice (exorcist)
nonwake
twilit sonnet
my legion script
young loom
which has Cannibal which is unbluffable
skill issue
just bluff it
literally have won games doing that skill issue :/
young loom
yes but have you considered that this isnt a cannibal script
YOU PUT UNDERTAKER ON THIS SCRIPT???
neon schooner
ok so you're saying skill issue for cannibal but you say that undertaker is unbluffable
i see
young loom
yes 😇
twilit sonnet
Cannibal has a range
young loom
the vibe is off with ut
neon schooner
YOU PUT UNDERTAKER ON THIS SCRIPT???
that's... not the problem??? cannibal is ability duplication and encourages town to execute goods
young loom
cannibal i don't actually like here
twilit sonnet
UT is “this exact thing”
neon schooner
cannibal is so incredibly far off vibe
twilit sonnet
Yeah no it doesn’t
young loom
tempo
witch activation
calm furnace
Solving Deaths speech bubble
twilit sonnet
Weirdly i think slayer would pop off
neon schooner
wrong script, you're looking for witch hunt and djinn's bargain
young loom
Weirdly i think slayer would pop off
doesn't work w the djinn rule
if you hit you just fucked your team over
calm furnace
truer
twilit sonnet
if you hit you just fucked your team over
You kill an evil and confirm yourself
calm furnace
I think I've said this before
calm furnace
You kill an evil and confirm yourself
if you slay someone who you believe is the demon
twilit sonnet
But that’s relatively weak fair
neon schooner
slayer is my favorite ongoing info character
calm furnace
you've forgone Winning The Game
to instead confirm yourself and kill a demon
this is like saying "Alsaahir confirms itself because everyone knows who the Alsaahir is when they win"
twilit sonnet
Shoot the guy with the good info
neon schooner
mostly unrelated but i just thought of boffin-fool + slayer and i think that's really funny (and bad)
young loom
wait slayer on the recluse version
you don't need a scarlet because killing the demon normally keeps the game going
holy shit
neon schooner
ongoing info roles not currently on script:
amne (no), balloonist (tempo problem), chambermaid (i like ft better), dreamer (id rather ut), flowergirl (yes simulator), general (off vibe but not out of the question), HP (further off vibe and it WILL cause problems), king (no), savant (off vibe & brain burny), TC (ive thought about this a bunch, wouldn't be the end of the world but im not a fan), VI (too synergistic and sucks with math)
and theres snake lol (let's not)
young loom
i don't hate general here because it can run support for finding a mastermind day
if town's really not considering it at all it learns a negative result
if town's hedging mastermind after they execute the chef d1 the general learns how stupid of an idea that is
just make sure your players don't expect it to be diet oracle and it's probably fine?
neon schooner
recluse json
topaz anvil
is there one extra demon at the cost of a minion? or does that literally add an evil player?
young loom
is there one extra demon at the cost of a minion? or does that literally add an ...
Literally adds an extra evil player. The Demon replaces a Townsfolk at setup
topaz anvil
this feels quite heavily stacked against good
prime dagger
this feels quite heavily stacked against good
Fwiw, there is limited misinfo and lots of strong TF so it's not too evil-sided
calm furnace
Fwiw, there is limited misinfo and lots of strong TF so it's not *too* evil-side...
it still is imo
twilit sonnet
it still is imo
The new version is balanced imo
calm furnace
The new version is balanced imo
uhh link?
-# this script has like 30 "new versions"
prime dagger
Depends on whether there is a MM in play
twilit sonnet
uhh link?
-# this script has like 30 "new versions"
Last tested one
calm furnace
Last tested one
the one played in livetext?
prime dagger
MM is the strongest minion by a long shot
neon schooner
Nope that one's slightly off and not tested
neon schooner
*this* is the current version of the script that has been tested but not officia...
This version has a winrate that's not close to statistical significance
And games feel tense & winnable for both teams
Which is what I want really. I don't really care about exactly 50/50 especially with this djinnlegger
Speaking of which hop on the app were trying to rack
calm furnace
I also am
@neon schooner btw if you rack in like 3 hours for BSN, I'll hop on app just ping me with game link :3
twilit sonnet
I can also exist in 3 hours
calm furnace
I'm here too :3
neon schooner
Lol ok let's see if we can get a game going
Idk how to open a lobby (idk if I even can without a Patreon)
twilit sonnet
Idk how to open a lobby (idk if I even can without a Patreon)
Yeah you can’t
Fortunately I have patreon
neon schooner
Oh nice
twilit sonnet
I will be there soon
neon schooner
Wait so how soon is soon
I assumed like 3 min or something, it's fine if it's more than that but just how long
twilit sonnet
I assumed like 3 min or something, it's fine if it's more than that but just how...
I got home now
neon schooner
Ah ok
neon schooner
Another good win
Wouldn't it be so silly if I overcorrected and it was good sided now
I'm not concluding that yet
But like
It's possible
fringe crescent
custscripts regulars try not to judge the balance of their scripts off of 3 games challenge (impossible)
neon schooner
Tbf the innk popped OFF in this particular game
neon schooner
custscripts regulars try not to judge the balance of their scripts off of 3 game...
I'm just considering the possibility
Also it's like 9 games
twilit sonnet
custscripts regulars try not to judge the balance of their scripts off of 3 game...
Hey look mine was at least balanced off 8
pure dagger
custscripts regulars try not to judge the balance of their scripts off of 3 game...
Imagine playing the same custom script more than 3 times
calm furnace
st'd two games of BSN
Philo went Magician, Ojo outed to Philo-magi and d1 executed
evil crushed, good had a chance when the Imp killed the Pukka
Good was NOT having it and executed the exorcist
neon schooner
Philo went Magician, Ojo outed to Philo-magi and d1 executed
Oh man
Ty for running!!! :)
What was the chef number 👀
calm furnace
What was the chef number 👀
1
hollow jewel
evil crushed, good had a chance when the Imp killed the Pukka
...evil was NOT crushing it
calm furnace
...evil was NOT crushing it
I don't agree :3 the only reason you like didn't win in f4 is bc you killed the Pukka 😭
like
nobody was talking about either demon
neon schooner
good won v1 on the arif stream????????
digital island
watch people call it goodsided
neon schooner
lol
there were like 3 double claims in this game
the demons got 4 bluffs between them so that's not why
swampert explained the solve pretty well on the vod, basically they deconfirmed xaan 1 which confirmed the chef & the number which led to the demon off another DC
"it needs a heretic" surely
arif said mm was difficult to track, yeah I'm working on it
desert notch
when's the stream for this one again
neon schooner
@twilit sonnet I see you playing, the st didn't give me the grim but I must go, can you post a screenshot when the game ends
twilit sonnet
<@1109632172303855859> I see you playing, the st didn't give me the grim but I m...
wait
fuck I deleted grim
:(
anyway evil won
Exorcist bluff :)
neon schooner
fuck I deleted grim
Noooo
digital island
f3 was both demons and a minion
on f5 one of the demons got 4 votes, but then they lifted onto the soldier with 5
also the IK stopped the imp from killing the pukka
neon schooner
Incredible
twilit sonnet
but also made me look good because otherwise moonchild
neon schooner
on f5 one of the demons got 4 votes, but then they lifted onto the soldier with ...
If I'm doing my math right this needs good to actually vote wrong right
digital island
yea it was all 4 evils and the other alive good iirc
neon schooner
what a janky game
the starting evil team was pretty socially outed as early as d1 (the summoned pukka did great tho)
town slept d1 after tying on the evil team, slept d2 after tying on the evil team, then executed the starting imp d3
you might notice the pukka dead reminder on the soldier. this is not a mistake. he was innkeeper drunk on night 2 and the pukka was able to get a stab in (which pinged math, and would have the next night too if she wasn't pukka poisoned)
calm furnace
@neon schooner about to play BSN 15 let’s see how it goes
neon schooner
👀 👀 👀 👀
You know
There's a chance it's goodsided at such a high player count
If it's been roughly 50/50 from 9 to 12
+1 evil doesn't scale evenly
As we can see from the 7p game
neon schooner
I golem punched the summoned demon the night they were summoned :3
Oh no lol
Nice
Dare I ask what the apprentice got
Looks like both travs were good but if they were evil would you have given them both demons
calm furnace
Dare I ask what the apprentice got
Math
calm furnace
Looks like both travs were good but if they were evil would you have given them ...
they were
idk ask the st I think you know him :3
neon schooner
Yeah he dmed me lol
haughty tangle
wow you have a rainbow fool token, i hear those are quite rare
young loom
gay fool 🥳
haughty tangle
gay fool 🥳
i'm a gay fool
neon schooner
Shab = ojo, pithag = summoner
First 2 games ended early
Empath 2 is. a lot.
Especially with a golem punching the godfather
And in game 2 my demon outed to the magician thinking I was the magician 😔
In game 3 I was the math. My info was 0, then 0, then "you are the imp you are evil" anyways the summoner was kinda outed so we executed her
final anchor
In game 3 I was the math. My info was 0, then 0, then "you are the imp you are e...
What a funny math ping
Definitely math and not anything else
final anchor
Ahhh I cannot read
calm furnace
Empath 2 is. a lot.
skissue for not pukka poisoning the potencial empath 2 I fear?
pure dagger
"Skissue" 
neon schooner
skissue for not pukka poisoning the potencial empath 2 I fear?
Tbh yeah
Also it's worth mentioning that these were run without the demons learning each other
calm furnace
big if cringe? (big)
young loom
if demons not learning each other is the Luis method what's the conventional method called
calm furnace
if demons not learning each other is the Luis method what's the conventional met...
the correct method
young loom
booo you're no fun
pure dagger
The Church-approved method
neon schooner
if demons not learning each other is the Luis method what's the conventional met...
I think you nailed it, it's the conventional method
mint garden
Ran a couple of games in person of BSN today, first was an evil win, demons not learning each other, replaced a TF. Ojo tried to kill the Oracle which was the other demons bluff and was very confused when their godfather dies (no veteran players but not really new players either) was very fun script. Ojo had Moonchild, Exorcist, Chef. Pukka had Fool, Chef, Oracle.
I’m trying to get the other grim pic but might not have it until tomorrow
neon schooner
Oh nice!!!
Glad you enjoyed :)
Any reason you bounced the ojo miss to a minion instead of e.g. the golem?
mint garden
Golem was dead by that point
neon schooner
Well who was alive
mint garden
My options were
Godfather
Ojo
Pukka
Philo (FT)
Soldier
Gambler
Minions co-ordinated demons knowing each other pretty poorly so that’s why the Ojo picked Oracle
ruby lodge
i think it's fine
ruby lodge
Minions co-ordinated demons knowing each other pretty poorly so that’s why the O...
but ojo doesn't choose player?
mint garden
Ojo chose Oracke which was what the Pukka was bluffing
mint garden
Sorry I worded that poorly
ruby lodge
kill the pukka
neon schooner
I'd prob either kill the gambler or sink into the soldier here but if it made for a fun game then that's what matters
neon schooner
What a game 😭
Philo empath seated between both demons
One got executed d1 and the other got exorcized n2. The only night death was the assassin stabbing the imp (which is like a pretty good play)
prime dagger
BSN good-sided confirmed
fringe crescent
What a game 😭
@rocky folio playing bsn 👀
neon schooner
Yippee
neon schooner
What a game 😭
Tbf I'm pretty sure the ojo self voted both times