China Shop

[turbid anchor]

Winrates are updated

Except me 😭

Witch is a poor winrate minion and assassin shows it’s worth in Typhon/Yag games more than Vigor

[olive drift]

So the correct Demon stats are
Yagga 2/4
Vigor 3/7
LoT 2/7

[turbid anchor]

And good was stacked

[olive drift]

Ye

I'm not super worried about Witch ngl

It's still early days

[turbid anchor]

Yeah

[olive drift]

Alsaahir was 1/7

before rising to above a 50% wr

[turbid anchor]

Good has been pretty lucky recently in the games I’ve played/specced

[olive drift]

If it does seem like the script is good sided, then I can look at changes

But

[surreal forge]

is the one the alsa win in livetext

[olive drift]

I'm just gonna wait and see

[olive drift]

No there was a random D1 livevoice alsaahir win

Where they guessed the exact typhon line

In scheduled

It was really funny

[surreal forge]

that should probably be added then?

[olive drift]

It has been already

The livetext alsaahir win, if I was to guess

Is part of the recent winstreak good has had

Anyway I am less nervous to put both Puzzlemaster and Widow in grims like these

I was either going Widow or Assassin there

Good definitely can narrow in through info, but that game was mainly reads

[elder musk]

What % good win means good favored to you? Are you aiming for 50%?

Also im playing 4-6 games of this live next weekend. I hope I'll have some evil wins this time for the stats 😉

I feel like 50-50 means the script is evil favored. Nature of the game means good should win more than evil

[turbid anchor]

Evil 39-61 Good

[olive drift]

50/50 is the ideal

Trouble Brewing, Sects and Violets and Bad Moon rising all have roughly a 50/50 winrate

And it is what I will be aiming for

So currently, off these stats alone, the script seems good sided.

[still fern]

-# I still like Fisherman more than Alsaahir

[lucid vault]

SPEAK YOUR TRUTH KING

[lilac ridge]

Evil vigor win, Puzzledrunk savant was rough but good had a chance to go for the mayor win but unfortunately did not trust the mayor

[surreal forge]

tbc SnV doesn't

[still fern]

It does

'roughly' is doing some work, but it does

[vapid escarp]

It's within 5 percentage points

As far as I'm concerned that's enough

[olive drift]

Why is that

[olive drift]

Yagga 2/4
Vigor 4/8
LoT 2/7

[turbid anchor]

Win rate update time 😁

[still fern]

Easier to balance a bag around, far less of a "does nothing or wins" effect, far more interesting bluff

In the alt wincons sphere this is much more of a mayor script than an alsaahir script

[olive drift]

I like Alsaahir because of its unique role in ruling out Typhon worlds

It seems to fit well in a lot of bags

And it seems to be winning a fair amount

And because Alsaahir usually is there to rule out Typhon worlds players are worried about, I don't think it does nothing even if it doesn't win

[still fern]

I think it generally functions to restrict evil's bluffspace in a way that the current rendition of the script has relatively little way to play around without being a particularly influential bluff itself (because it's a bluff that just serves to confirm good players in a way that can't redirect well into falsely confirming evils)

[olive drift]

Isn't that true of alsaahir in general?

[still fern]

To a decent degree yes which is part of why it's a pain in the ass to put on scripts, but CS shows it quite a bit more than average due to having a weird demon suite + relatively low (and loud) misinfo + another wincon

(and Mayor punches way above its weight on this script so adding more good wincons is a lot to play around)

[olive drift]

I want more than Mayor to solve DA bags

[lilac ridge]

But consider the fact that alsaahir wins are epic

And they happen more frequently on this script than any other script with alsaahir

[still fern]

kind of the problem lol

[olive drift]

We'll see w more data and feedback

I also like how Alsaahir is more player driven

[wheat karma]

Whats the difference between Mayor + Slayer on TB and Mayor + Alsaahir on this script

[olive drift]

hi I'm gonna cosplay vati

'The difference is that Trouble Brewing has the Scarlet Woman and I think that slayer insta winning the game off their ability isn't great'

'Also Alsaahir and Lord of Typhon makes the Alsaahir's ability stronger with not much way to counterplay it'

[wheat karma]

Oh yeah, tbh i like the change in Alsaahir on fisherman. Another info driven TF is off-putting. For me its the outsider problem on this script like moonchild and maybe puzzlemaster

[rain parcel]

See the problem is that Vati doesn’t find good pulling these things off fun

This is vati’s big hot take

[olive drift]

i don't think that's true

[rain parcel]

He obviously doesn’t like slayer no SW

and Alsaahir is just that

[elder musk]

I think good winning a bit more more is best personally. More happy players, when evil wins it feels more special. I would aim for something around 55-45

and evil winning more is really not ideal IMO

[still fern]

It's not entirely untrue

I think Alsaahir is pretty fair and fun in a way that no-counterplay Slayer isn't

I just don't think this is an Alsaahir script, because it's a script with a very unusual set of evil team configurations and the most fragile balance point possible on a script that stands up to multiple plays

[olive drift]

Gonna be running China Shop in scheduled tomorrow

But ye a current evil Winrate of 38% is slightly dismal

21 games ain't small but it isn't huge either to be fair

[shy spoke]

Do you know how many of those games ended in alsaahir wins?

[olive drift]

3 of them

1 was a random guess d1

But ye 3 alsaahir wins

[still fern]

for reference cc has 2/44 recorded alsaahir wins and it gets them 'unusually often'

[shy spoke]

So ~ 14%

[olive drift]

I'm not taking 1 script as reference for alsaahir to be fair. But yes it's a good deal higher

[still fern]

yeah just thinking of benchmarks

[olive drift]

Alsaahir is rarely used

[still fern]

paradox loves alsaahir so he might have stats

for rtc/dreamscapes

[cloud thistle]

@fringe socket give us stats now

[shy spoke]

Alsaahir is fine here as long as it isn't in <10p LoT games

[olive drift]

Ye <10p LoT alsaahir gets borked

To be v fair

[shy spoke]

Widow helps tho

[olive drift]

But also... its like a slayer that can only shoot specifically LoT

Several times sure.

My issue w fisherman is that I think its advice might be v good at solving Demon type or create trust chains. Like I don't want fish to be weak, but I think fish is stronger than alsaahir

[olive drift]

Yeah! But the alsaahir also is guessing worlds which were suspicious anyway

[shy spoke]

Only 13 of the games had an alsaahir in them

Checking the winrates

So 23%

Yeah, it's pretty strong here

[olive drift]

It is!

[fringe socket]

I have no stats

[olive drift]

I do think small player count LoT alsaahir is weird... I dunno if that's a dealbreaker

[still fern]

I think it'll be strong in a better way, if that makes sense

I think it'll help town build confident foundations and pursue leads, and also not solo win a quarter of games

[olive drift]

I feel those foundations will solve games in themselves

[shy spoke]

I like Fisherman here a bit more tbh

[still fern]

It still needs to be trusted, think itself sober, etc and also is a far more powerful bluff
Alsaahir has the unorthodox quality that it doesn't matter how trusted you are and how sober you think you are if you trigger the wincon; on most scripts this works out fine (on the weak end of most scripts' townsfolk, even) but on this particular script it just solo wins a quarter of games

[olive drift]

I'm still gonna keep it on. Right now yes it looks like that

Before it won 1 game randomly and had a 14% winrate

I still think these statistics are in early days

[still fern]

They are

But yeah alsaahir is swinginess in the form of a townsfolk and always will be

[shy spoke]

Forty Four? Wow

[olive drift]

I will keep fish in mind bc it is a good townsfolk

[still fern]

There are 44 games of cc where I know confidently how they ended, yeah

[shy spoke]

That is a ton of games

[still fern]

50+ games total

[olive drift]

44 alsaahir games

Gosh

[still fern]

I don't know how many had alsaahirs but I do know it's a pretty sizable proportion because of how many are high player count games

I think decently over half?

And cc has exactly one form of demon mobility and a damn Kazali so it works out as a pretty alsaahir-friendly environment

When in the game have alsaahirs tended to win on China Shop?

I know there was the random d1 guess but how far have they generally been in otherwise

[olive drift]

Oh ok

[still fern]

like, in terms of players alive, player impression of how close the endgame was, etc

[olive drift]

Well

One was in final 3

LoT final 3.
Another was on D2, Yaggababble. But it seemed minion was under heavy suspicion after tying the vote on D1.

[still fern]

both the alsa wins I have down for cc were in f3/f4 and both alsaahirs were being framed hard which is the sort of thing that makes evil teams easier to spot from your own pov

[olive drift]

Yee

[olive drift]

From the most recent CC version, Alsaahir won 1/8 games it was in, which is still lower than CS

It seems you are counting every CC game

[still fern]

Yeah I count across the full thing because there are games where I don't fully recall their version and because there's been times when older versions were played after a newer one came out

I think 1/8-1/10 is reflective though

My impression is this is still decently above average for an alsaahir script (it's one of those townsfolk people often complain about as doing nothing) but in part this is a script issue because people put it with pithag and shit

[atomic pebble]

I remember missing a lot as a Ojo in general since most people who know Ojo is in the script won't likely make a full claim.

In general btw

[shadow eagle]

Me intentionally missing as the Ojo so I don't look stupid by accidentally missing

[rugged kiln]

For the record I really like Alsaahir on CS

[olive drift]

I do think it's a bit weird against LoT in 7-9p games, but the fact it has to commit to guessing specifically LoT worlds might counter that

I've seen at least a text game where the Alsaahir said they ruled out every Typhon world

In a small game

Evil proceeded to win as Yaggababble DA

[olive drift]

Good win!

But it was close!

Yaggababble 40% 2/5

[olive drift]

This was also a game where the Yaggababble caused enough kills to rule out Vigor games which... is a small issue this script has

I could have avoided that w better storytelling maybe

Alternatively, I might need to look at Vigor -1 Godfather +1 rulings

Currently how I run it is in a 0 Outsider game, Vigor -1 Godfather +1 = 0 Outsiders

I do know of the common alternative of Vigor -1 Godfather +1 games ending w 1 Outsider

If I run it like that then a Minion's Plague Doctor bluff to explain extra deaths at night could have worked

It's worth thinking about

I do like -1 +1 = 0

It's logical

[vapid escarp]

but have you considered that negative numbers dont exist

[olive drift]

TRUE

[wraith flume]

as a mathematician i endorse this message

[olive drift]

Also... its much more world opening if I do rule it that way

I thought imaginary numbers don't exist

[wraith flume]

numbers don't exist

it's all fake

[olive drift]

Truer

[wraith flume]

vigor -1 godfather +1 giving 0 outsiders is also.... sad?

[olive drift]

It is SAD!

[wraith flume]

like the point of vigor -1 is to increase outsider bluffspace but godfather... already does that

[olive drift]

Yea

Back in the old old days

When this had Ojo

I was against vigor for this exact reason

[vapid escarp]

just dont do gf vigor 0

[olive drift]

Yee

[wraith flume]

^

[olive drift]

I think changing that ruling makes sense

It helps evil teams blend together more

Bc in that game just by changing that ruling, there could be 2 Outsiders in a Vigor game (balloonist + godfather +1), and a viable Vigor world existed

[vapid escarp]

im yoinking this script as a case study for my blog btw

[still fern]

I sorta just assumed you'd updated to that ruling months ago based on me shilling for it

[lucid vault]

yeah the solution is just not putting vigor and gf in a base-0 bag unless you also have a balloonist or something (catfishing who?)

[olive drift]

Or... just ruling it the other way

[lucid vault]

ruling it the other way is cringe tho 😭

[still fern]

Rare axo L

[lucid vault]

i'm sorry i checks notes believe 1 - 1 = 0

[shy spoke]

Yeah, but you can't have -1 outsider

Or -1 outsiders ig

[lucid vault]

(-1)+1 is still zero though???

[shy spoke]

If you do GF -1 at base 0 outsiders, you put 0 outsiders in

[lucid vault]

i'd question why you're doing gf-1 at base 0, but agreed

i'm not arguing otherwise

[shy spoke]

I think you can run it either way

[shy spoke]

You can use Vigor as an example instead

[lucid vault]

okay vigor at base 0 is cracked though

[rich oracle]

ruling it the other way is based

[vapid escarp]

Addition need not be commutative 🗣️ 🗣️ 🗣️

[vapid escarp]

if this isnt the most recent version please yell at me

(you saw nothing)

oh good you thought that was the mistake

[shy spoke]

I saw it all 👀

[vapid escarp]

https://tenor.com/view/riddler-paul-dano-new-rockstars-does-he-know-gif-26833694

[olive drift]

That's the won

[vapid escarp]

actually i might as well post it here before the full post right

China Shop is a script that’s gotten a good amount of traction after winning the Lord of Typhon contest, and both are for good reason!! It’s a fun time, and also a great example of mastery over volume. Everything locks into itself nicely, so it’s hard to know where to start, but Witch feels like a good starting point. Witch once again kills players in broad daylight, but unlike SnV it has a confound here: Yaggababble. A Witch kill no longer confines worlds to “there is a Witch in play”, because it could just be a Yaggababble, or even a Tinker! Similarly, a Witch being in play doesn’t confine worlds to “there are no other Minions in play” at any player count, because Lord of Typhon adds in a Minion.

Vigormortis fills in the gaps of the script well, and makes it so Minion activity late game also doesn’t limit worlds, which Lord of Typhon appreciates. Godfather is the primary source of Outsider modification, thought LoT, Vigormortis, and even Balloonist contribute as well. Godfather, Assassin, and Yaggababble cover each other’s extra night deaths, which opens the path for characters like Gambler and Grandmother. Widow is uniquely loud because the Widow ping has no confound, but that’s okay because LoT leaves worlds open. And of course, the Devil’s Advocate throws a little bit of doubt onto survived executions, and can be a great protective mechanism.

Every evil character on this script is loadbearing in one way or another, and they all support each other in a super tight way. They even have a Plague Doctor to act as an extra confound later on! (Just close your eyes and pretend that duplicating the DA ability is illegal…) Good can’t narrow worlds sharply with evidence that 1 Minion is in play, but they can work together to figure out what’s where.

i think the only context from the rest of the post that matters here is the term "loadbearing" but idk maybe it's obvious

on discord it looks like so many more words lol

[olive drift]

Also a legendary evil Vigor win

After Minion exed d1

This was an app win

I didn't catch what was happening

bc I was in the middle of a D&D game

[olive drift]

5/9 Vigor Win

[lucid vault]

rare instance where the vigor doesn't kill their minions and wins??

[olive drift]

Nuraghe was exed D1 so yea

Appparently Seb had some superb social play

@turbid anchor do your thing!

[turbid anchor]

o7

[turbid anchor]

At some point I forgot to update Fool & Alsaahirs percentages so I’ve corrected that as well now

[quick pier]

Hystrex text wall?

[olive drift]

ye!

[olive drift]

Spelling fix

of Outsider modification, though LoT, Vigormortis, and even Balloonist contribute as well.

[olive drift]

W more context, Vigor had a trusted Alsaahir bluff, & attacked a Tea Lady protected player when the Tea Lady outed to them

[vapid escarp]

oh ty

[vapid escarp]

should be ready by tomorrow 👀 id release it now but unfortunately i am eepy and theres still a bit to go

it's already substantially longer in word count than the last, when this was meant to be a quick thing

(though the misinfo wall has a lot more images)

3300 words vs just under 4000 words rn

[elder musk]

2 very close games yesterday with a live group. 2 good wins but I don't have the full Grimoire. A friend was storytelling and I had to leave early. Yaga loss and LoT loss both final 3. Game 3 evil should have won but demon killed the wrong person.

[olive drift]

pfff

Do you have grims. Back to more goodsided China Shop wins 😔

It's insane because the script did feel evil sided as all hell

And 2.4 if anything I think nerfed good team a lot with Innkeeper->Fool

And Fish to Alsaahir

I think its partially to do with mayor

But... I don't think that's the full reason

But ye

If you don't that's fine

[elder musk]

I'll ask the person who ran it. In playing again tonight and I'll be ST so I'll have them.

[lucid vault]

return to adding outsiders to Typhon games?!

[olive drift]

woah woah woah

...

maybe?

All demons seem to be not quite going beyond 50%

So I wonder if good is too strong for evil? Or if we are just in 1 big lucky streak

because there was a streak where evil were just winning over and over

[turbid anchor]

Evil had 6/9 wins at the start

[turbid anchor]

I’d guess so

[olive drift]

I think looking at it balance out

[turbid anchor]

Not the right message to reply to

[olive drift]

We're getting to maybe a 60/40 WR

[turbid anchor]

I’d guess so

1 big streak

I can’t speak

[olive drift]

I'd prefer to tweak it a bit more in favour for evil

[turbid anchor]

Yeah probably

Honestly I would prefer a witch replacement

[olive drift]

Still, I do want to get data on this version of the script. Eh

i don't think replacing Witch is the move

[turbid anchor]

If you’re replacing evil

[olive drift]

But sure I'll hear you out

I think the evil team is fine as is

Witch gives the Yaggababble a consistent way to get an extra disguised kill

And if there is a cracked Witch you'll get players being paranoid it's a Yaggababble game

I think they work together v well

[turbid anchor]

What townsfolk changes would actually benefit evil though

Alsa->Fish would probably benefit good

Mayor feels balanced

[olive drift]

ye

Probably getting Banshee back on

In place of something like Alsaahir

But Banshee has its own issues

Maybe there is a lack of misinformation

Evil can get very close to winning, they just can't get over the finish line

I also think maybe people have got better at playing against Lord of Typhon

[turbid anchor]

Also no one’s running Fool games 🙁

So it’s not a good idea to remove it as we don’t have proof that the script will be Better with it gone

[olive drift]

I run fool games 😔

I see the vision for Fool

[turbid anchor]

I try to run fool games

I try to run China Shop

The amount of times I’ve suggested China Shop to my in person group to get the response of ‘my unbalanced pukka script is better’ lol

[olive drift]

pff

i need to see this

But no it's fair

It's a weird script

Wish you luck actually running it for more data! But it is BMR at home

[turbid anchor]

I’m finding the proof lol

[olive drift]

It's fine tbf

I don't want to diss a player's script

Script building is a joy in itself

And I can believe people wanting to run their own scripts

It's a perfectly believable story

[still fern]

I cannot state enough how massively bad it is for a typhon team to let a banshee die and also how every single typhon team knows for sure there is a banshee and how much fun people did not have with that play pattern

[turbid anchor]

This was the script poll for our most recent game… my friends are very humble “the best” lmao. Also try not to dox your friends simulator lol

[olive drift]

Ride the Cyclone mention 👀

[turbid anchor]

Oh absolutely not

Honestly the script was pretty fun to ST for

[olive drift]

Then it's all good

You ran something good either way

[turbid anchor]

It’s wildly unbalanced but it’s a good time and that’s all that really matters

[olive drift]

Oh yea

[turbid anchor]

This should be the clocktower motto

[olive drift]

It should be a custom script motto. It doesn'tr really matter as long as you have good people to play it with

But the base scripts are close to 'balanced'

So we try and model our scripts off that

anyway I'll just be off praying that somehow this script ends up at 50/50 and it'll be perfect, but it's never that easy 😅

[turbid anchor]

Has Golem been considered?

[olive drift]

Yes actually!

But no, I don't want it

[turbid anchor]

Oh

[olive drift]

Golem as an Outsider breaks so many Typhon lines

[turbid anchor]

Hatter?

[turbid anchor]

So does Moonchild though

[olive drift]

Let me rephrase

There is no way for a Lord of Typhon or their Minions to nominate a player, and that player dies

So the Golem is definitely not the Lord of Typhon or one of the Typhon Minions

[turbid anchor]

Ohhh

I forgot how to think

Damn

Yeah

[olive drift]

Yea

Hatter just don't really like as an Outsider

And also, what does it replace?

[turbid anchor]

Moonchild

[olive drift]

Moonchild is strong admittedly

[turbid anchor]

Moonchild is basically a TF here

[olive drift]

I wouldn't say that

[turbid anchor]

Soft confirms 2 players

[olive drift]

Yeah but in a Typhon game that can be disasterous

[turbid anchor]

What can?

[olive drift]

Moonchild is a good Vigor bluff, and Yagga bluff

[olive drift]

2 deaths... hmm well if they think its a typhon line players can use that to rise up

[turbid anchor]

That’s true

[olive drift]

Don't worry

I am currently against change, but I will listen

But I haven't gone over why I dislike hatter

Mainly, Hatter w a blank demon like Lord of Typhon feels... weird

Hatter overlaps with Plague Doctor

There also is niche but possible scenarios where Hatter+DA leads to the Demon being protected 2 nights in a row

(Admittedly w Alsaahir and Mayor, maybe less of an issue!)

[turbid anchor]

Honestly this script might not need any more change

[olive drift]

We'll see

[turbid anchor]

👆

[olive drift]

I do wanna thank all the people, such as vati, axo and you in putting this thing together. The scripts previous issue of 'Good team is kinda flailing w no real direction' is pretty much gone

I think the bag building is quite... stable now

[turbid anchor]

The biggest issue I’ve seen is that if Moonchild picks someone on the other side of the grim and they die and the deaths match up that could clear 6 Typhon candidates which in low player games is insanely powerful but that is honestly the only nitpick I have with China Shop

But also tbf if you bag build like a morally well human being (not having Typhon, moonchild, and neither of Assassin nor GF) this issue is very minor

[olive drift]

I think even then there will be self killing GF/Assassin worlds in Typhon lines

[elder musk]

2 more good wins last night in my group

It was more social reads that led to them though. The concesus was this is hard for evil. We'll probably come back to it at some point because I really like it 🙂 I have grim pictures but since I don't have all experimental tokens it's a bit of a mess

This was game 1. Spy is widow, juggler is alsahir, shab is yaggababble

Moonchild chose yagababble at final 5 morning and it forced village to kill him so it's not last day.

Game 2 barber is plague doctor

In this one someone faked alsahir guess the evil team and witch had a big facial reaction which sealed it for them. Otherwise evil was on a good track. Drunk general really threw them. Dead minion really stopped playing and it was a hard hill to climb for poor vigo

[vapid escarp]

Balloonist and knight 😭😭😭

Love them

[olive drift]

Hmm ok

Looks like this is rather good sided 😭

[elder musk]

Maybe it's because I almost only play live. But I feel the social part of the games makes most scripts good sides

Especially if there is no escape for the demon

I won't say my group are all amazing players but most have played monthly for years

If some players draw the demon, it's never gonna be 50-50

[olive drift]

yeah BMR kinda is similar with no way out for the Demon

But they have both Mastermind and Devil's Advocate

And also people can die really fast on BMR

[elder musk]

That was the discussion after the games. Even people who love to be evil were dreading drawing demon

Zombuul and mastermind slow the carnage a lot too

[olive drift]

yeah

What feedback did they give

Like

What type of things were they saying

[elder musk]

Last month people said it was the best script ever

[olive drift]

What did they dread about it

[olive drift]

aww

[elder musk]

But now that good was 7-0 there was less praise. People were scared of being the demon

[olive drift]

yeah

[elder musk]

Not having enough control I guess

There were some unlucky losses for evil

They don't like not choosing kills with yaga

[olive drift]

Sadly I think Yaggababble is core

But you can definitely storytell it well

I have had evils request kills

Either on themselves or on others

Hmm

[elder musk]

I think it was bad luck and social reads mostly. I don't blame the script necessarily

[olive drift]

That's fair... lots of evil wins do seem to come from bad luck

But... it seems to only go 1 way

[elder musk]

My group has probably about 1/3 evil wins

In general

[olive drift]

Funnily enough, in previous versions, it was the opposite

It felt like if the good team made a single mistake here, they can get destroyed

[elder musk]

All scripts with no demon escape can be lost by a single mistake by evil

[olive drift]

Yes. Scripts like BMR do have ways around this though

So potential issues include
Lack of Demon Protection - Devil's Advocate and Plague Doctor is it. The base scripts all have more.
Evil feel they lack control - That issue I think comes down to Yaggababble. But other evil characters should have control

[elder musk]

I think the lack of control is not really valid. It was more related to that specific game

I didn't agree with them

[olive drift]

I think though getting criticism is important

I might not agree with their solutions

[still fern]

-# Alsaahir is a role that dramatically decreases evil's control over the game more than any of the other townsfolk on the script and also inherently circumvents safety nets

[olive drift]

But seeing the types of feelings they have about the game is important to try and make the right type of changes

[olive drift]

I guess its in one of the grims

I still feel that fisherman has its own issues

It can trust its own advice in most games because of the lack of droison

[shy spoke]

Assassin and Godfather help the second one

[elder musk]

I think I failed the yaggababble in that game and that didn't help

[olive drift]

They do. But the facts still are that evil didn't feel in control

[shy spoke]

Also, STs shouldn't kill outed spent roles with the yaggababble

[olive drift]

ye

Yagg is hard to run

[shy spoke]

For sure

[still fern]

Fisherman is the kind of role that's inherently convoluted/difficult to interpret in ways that can just leave town drowning with high misinfo

[olive drift]

I think Fisherman info is very strong

[elder musk]

Yagg is not a favorite in my group for sure

[still fern]

Most viable fish advice can have multiple sets of implications that are weird to interpret

[olive drift]

I... don't know

What type of advice are you running?

[still fern]

Like there's a thing-to-do, yes, but once you've done that thing, what next?

[olive drift]

'Trust vati'

'Don't listen to what Autumn is saying'

'Don't get Dylan to nominate?'

like

I think there is plenty of straightforward, but strong advice that can be run here

[still fern]

and then town kills the plague doctor bluffing savant because they're fish-confirmed evil

well probably bluffing something else but you know what I mean

[olive drift]

you could say that

[still fern]

I think you can have lots of straightforward strong fish advice here and that's good, and I also think it's strong in an entirely different, more viable, and more bluffable way than alsaahir

[olive drift]

Basically

I don't want every single LoT DA game to have a mayor in it

[shy spoke]

I can't wait for the "Tell [player] to shut up." fish advice in a yaggababble game

[still fern]

I don't think the axis on which you want to think about this script is nerfing/buffing town, it's finding the right town, which might be orthogonal to increasing or decreasing power levels in a void

[olive drift]

That may be nuanced or may not be.

[still fern]

Bagbuilding a transformation demon is always going to be wacky, you can easily get a town with no mayor or alsaahir no matter what, also you can just get the fish info to kill the DA

[shy spoke]

Fisherman advice is tricky

[still fern]

I think there's a degree to which one needs to admit when scripting around a transformation demon that the script will always be balanced on a knife's edge

And a lot of scripting or bagbuilding considerations wind up being "plans that don't survive contact with the enemy"

[olive drift]

I also feel like w Savant Fish and Amnesiac

It's a lot of ST overhead

[still fern]

Yagga is probably more ST overhead than all three of those combined

[olive drift]

So I prefer if we don't add more. hm

There are clearly issues here though

Not a single win in some groups

And the overall script is looking quite good sided

[olive drift]

@turbid anchor
Yaggababble 2/6
Vigormortis 5/10

[shy spoke]

Who would have thought

[olive drift]

Yeah..

It's a shock honestly

[shy spoke]

That's a contrast from v1.1

Or v1 idk

[olive drift]

I do think it's because people have got better at playing around LoT

But mostly these Townsfolk are much more pointing

[still fern]

I don't think typhon playstyles have really changed, it's always been a strange demon

I think one thing here is just that you have a script where two out of three demons notoriously screw around with the "f3 photofinish" ambition and the third is Yaggababble

I find I reiterate this a lot but China Shop is always going to be super swingy

[olive drift]

ye

But also... if we looked at the start of this

6/9 games were evil wins

That was similar to the amount of 'testing' we did on the other versions

[still fern]

at least vigor is the highest winrate demon 🔥

[olive drift]

It's possible evil just got lucky on the other versions too

[shy spoke]

I think people have started to play around LoT/Vigor + DA a ton more since this script was made

Rather than just letting them straight through to an unwinnable f3

[still fern]

I don't think that's a play pattern that's changed in the course of a few months across global metas

Individual groups probably

[olive drift]

Oh yeah

I forgot

The biggest change is...

Removing klutz

This script had quite a few klutz losses

China Shop Shortlist
Townsfolk
Fisherman - Can work on any script, and can work well here.
Cannibal - Weird with exe survival and makes Grandmother and Knight less bluffable. Still is interesting.
Farmer/Banshee - Bait is cool. But I think Mayor/Fool do provide good bait.

Outsiders
Butler - Might help LoT a bit, and doesn't add that much to the death mod idea of the script. But it could be interesting.
Hatter - Unsure bc I think Hatter+LoT is a weird combo, but it is quite a damaging Outsider.

Minions
Spy - Maybe? Does make Savant more questionable, and less droison isn't that great.
Mastermind - Sadly death mod isn't high enough to justify MM.

Demons
Ojo - Could work... but all the demons feel solid.

I'm wondering if Moonchild->Butler is anything, considering that Plague Doctor is just a different Moonchild potentially

It is a worse vigor/yagg bluff

Is my main issue

It does offer something different to bluff

[vapid escarp]

LoT just hatter swaps into yagga and if it's not executed the next day it wins off tempo probably every time

Wait can you pls not change the evil team 🥺

[olive drift]

I agree I don't like hatter

[olive drift]

I need to do what's necessary at times.

[vapid escarp]

is it necessary though

[olive drift]

But... I don't think anything fits better than what we have

Right now evil feels quite fragile

I am slightly tempted w Butler bc its quite different to moonchild/PD

But it combos worse with Yagg/Vigor

Like Yagg/Vigor do much better with a minion bluffing Moonchild than Butler.

Butler is better with Lord of Typhon, but they likely choose their neighbours or players who are not in the suspected Typhon line

[wheat karma]

Is sweetheart viable in this game?

[olive drift]

Plague Doctor does it but better

[shy spoke]

I think sweetheart is more interesting than butler fwiw

[turbid anchor]

Winrate time

[turbid anchor]

Was gonna say this last night but also Puzzlemaster exists

I agree with not changing the evil team, the only iffy one IMO is Witch but it works really well with Yag

[turbid anchor]

Lets go Fool

6/7 goes hard

[shy spoke]

probably because most of the games it's in are LoT games, which are more good-sided now because of Alsaahir.

[turbid anchor]

There has been very few Typhon Fool games

Lol

[shy spoke]

Really?

[turbid anchor]

2/3 Typhon
1/1 Vigor
3/3 Yag

[turbid anchor]

Typhon was the only Fool loss

[quick pier]

just played a really mechanically satisfying game

good won

but d1 we got the witch on the block, they panic lifted onto the knight so i was super suspicious

i was also witch cursed d1 so i picked the balloonist

that night the balloonist and witch both died and i was pretty sure it was vigor killed witch (it was)

when the alsaahir guessed the general and the witch and the game didnt end we had a clean solve f3

like it was mechanically possible for other worlds but most stuff pointed to it

[olive drift]

Mm

It seems evil need to have great socials to stand a chance here

[quick pier]

mhm

the tea lady read very good so it was pretty much over for evil

[olive drift]

I think I do need to move some bits an pieces around in this script

[quick pier]

such as?

[olive drift]

Maybe alsaahir... but I really doubt just that would make a difference

[quick pier]

i lober alsaahir here

[olive drift]

Like alsaahir v fish

Makes no difference to the outcome of the game here

[quick pier]

not true

it solved the game

[olive drift]

I know

My point is

Fish also would

Fish advice in final 3 v alsaahir here

Or final 5

[quick pier]

alsaahir died before f3

[olive drift]

Oh

[still fern]

You're incentivised to spend fish before f3 and you can bluff it so so much more effectively than you can bluff alsaahir

My issue with alsaahir on current cs is primarily a bluff issue

[olive drift]

Still players seem to love it

[still fern]

The script is running low now on roles that are interestingly bluffable by a wide configuration of evil teams

So info just closes in

[shy spoke]

What is (ST) Autumn storytelling? 🧐

[olive drift]

Literally nothing

I just lazy

Hm

I do like alsaahir here. But it does seem that the script is p unforgiving for evil

Crazy words. I never expected them

[quick pier]

yeah if you think alsaahir is too strong then thats fair

[olive drift]

I don't. A certain prophet think it is

[shy spoke]

-# And me 🖐️

[olive drift]

I don't think just alsaahir->smth else will solve this script's imbalance though

[olive drift]

Oh why would you do this to me

Betray me at my hour of need 😔

I thought we were family here

[shy spoke]

I was literally just about to click the godfather react lmao

[lucid vault]

I like alsaahir here

vati and dylan can pound sand

[olive drift]

I had the godfather theme in my head

[still fern]

I don't think it will but I think having a more bluffable info landscape is the big thing that keeps coming up to me

[olive drift]

But ye I do think the script likely needs a couple of changes

[still fern]

And alsa is the prominent example because it's not a very helpful bluff on this script

You just close worlds

The evil team configurations here need to pry worlds open

[olive drift]

You can close worlds where your demon isn't the Demon

As a Minion

[shy spoke]

Very inconspicuously too! (/j)

[olive drift]

Hm

Does Xaan work here at all?

Widow is nice, but the only thing that needs Widow is Grandmother

And it does help Savant

Witch is... well it's Witch

It helps out Yaggababble a ton

I think Assassin+Godfather are more important to the LoT+Yagg core this script has

But Witch might also be pretty core

And why not

[still fern]

thoughts disorgaized rn but it's off vibe

[olive drift]

I think part of evil's issue in general is that there isn't enough misinformation

[still fern]

accentuates the issue where too many roles are becoming impractical for evil to bluff in ways that influence the gamestate

[olive drift]

But stuff like Sailor just seems to be patching up an issue in a v impractical way

[still fern]

dropping widow would make all of balloonist/savant/amnesiac less flexible even though none of those 'need' it, and they're already the most heavy-duty bluffs on the script

[olive drift]

Yeah

I don't think Widow->Xaan would solve the issue of low misinfo anyway to be fair

Xaan also has a thing where it almost always is gonna be Xaan 1 or 2

Maybe 3 if the ST is feeling spicy

I'm just trying to see what I think is 'core' in China Shop now

Currently it looks like this

[still fern]

balloonist is always going to be something of a problem child because china shop does not have a balloonist outsider suite, but china shop is also now a script where evil's specific issue is that the bluffspace is too limited/the evil team configurations need to bluff info that closes too many worlds

and the heavier info bluffs on the script are the biggest counters to this issue

[olive drift]

I also had a brief flirtation with Shabaloth instead of Vigor in China Shop

[still fern]

alsaahir I've said my piece on but it really, really does this
mayor and fool are great roles on the script but they're roles the bluffspace narrows around so the fact they're now very core needs more heavy lifting to happen elsewhere

[olive drift]

Well Fool isn't core core to be fair.

[still fern]

I think I'm starting to turn against tc a little

but just a little

[olive drift]

But ye Shabaloth happens if Witch just doesn't seem to be doing enough

[still fern]

tc is one of those pain-in-the-ass snv townsfolk that's weak enough to feel like a blank token half the time and strong enough to bite you in the ass the other half

(see also seamstress)

[still fern]

has witch ever really done enough lol

[olive drift]

It's done a lot! in Yaggababble games

[still fern]

I think this script changes a lot if it becomes a shab script

[olive drift]

I am aware of that

And Professor+LoT seems uncomfortable when someone doesn't revive

but...

[still fern]

very much so

[olive drift]

Looking at what we have right now, I think we've reached a stage where its at a local equillibrium

Yes, we can do Fish instead of alsaahir

And this and that

But the script seems very good sided rn

Now that I say that, we will get a 10 game evil winstreak

Just to keep me on my toes

[olive drift]

@turbid anchor

[still fern]

I think the core lens to understand China Shop through, which is why it's so precariously balanced, is that it's a script where both teams have quite limited counterplay to each other in a lot of ways

And this is something unavoidably weaved into the script, i.e. a script where that isn't the case is not China Shop

There are implications that come out of this

[vapid escarp]

CS teensy no way

[olive drift]

any examples~?

[olive drift]

imagine

[still fern]

I'm tired and recovering from a game, let me try formalize this

[olive drift]

I would love nothing more than a Witch game where the Witch POPS OFF and puts my fears to rest

I also... ye Lord of Typhon will begin to look and feel slower than Shabaloth and Yaggababble, which might single it out a lot more

[still fern]

China Shop is a script that does a few different things:

1. The good team has limited mechanical counterplay to evil abilities. The demons either get an extra minion, guarantee minion abilities remain in play all game, or mimic existing minion abilities and make them impossible to solve for. Evil can win essentially by machina in almost any bag configuration, and this is a feature, not a bug -- all of Yagga/Vigor/Typhon share the characteristic of "if they're not doing something that looks too strong, they're probably doing something that's way too weak".
2. The evil team has limited mechanical counterplay to good abilities. Yaggababble lacks kill agency, Vigormortis is a hyperspecialized evil nightkills demon that trades off its capacity to fight townsfolk, Lord of Typhon is subject to setup RNG and collapses dramatically when people suspect it. Simultaneously, the script has relatively low misinfo (widow, pm, vigor lol). There are probably more opportunities to add some.
3. Because both teams lose some of their usual implicit assumptions in terms of how to fight each other, they have to fight each other from, for lack of a better description, equally uneven grounds. The China Shop demons are all heavily incentivized to keep worlds massively open, which their web of interwoven minion abilities is very good at; meanwhile, the town needs to try collate their relatively-trustworthy info to strike against an evil team they have no other way to deal with.
4. As a consequence of their need to keep worlds open, China Shop evil teams need manipulatable bluffspace. This is the issue with the current version, which was harder to notice in prior versions because every game was a DA autowin and it skewed stats. For a long time, the script's issue was "evil always wins, but it always feels like good is about to win" -- that was essentially this, because evil could always autowin on mechanical trickery but didn't have much cover until they did so. Right now, there isn't a ton evil can use to push worlds. There are great bluffs like Knight/Savant/Gambler/Amnesiac, but there are a lot of roles that are just strictly stronger being used for real by the good team than being bluffed by the evil team, and it's allowing worlds to narrow too quickly. Because both teams have limited mechanical maneuvering space against the other, they need to make or break it in the edges where the borders between socials and mechanics blur.

[olive drift]

Part of that issue is that characters which do push on worlds strongly (Investigator, Shugenja, Empath) also are much too strong in actual good player's hands

As for the chances to add extra misinfo, where

What characters would do that?

[south hollow]

Poisoner

[quick pier]

https://tenor.com/view/markiplier-gif-24903806

[olive drift]

"Ok let's do this. Completely remake this script from the bottom up!"

Looks at script

It's exactly the same except Balloonist->Cannibal

[shy spoke]

Ouch. That hurt.

[olive drift]

Cannibal to be fair is interesting. It does make Knight/Grandmother even less bluffable though

because all of the sudden they're gonna be eaten

Cannibal also is weird with all the science on the script

But I think having a different type of science/perspective is quite nice

Does make certain executions, like Puzzlemaster and Tinker, outright disasterous though!

[turbid anchor]

Sorry I’ve been busy today, will do it now

[olive drift]

it's fine!

i'll send it just in case

cannibal is admittedly a lot less bluffable here than some other scripts

[surreal forge]

people think that Cannibal can be on scripts without grim peekers

you're fine

[olive drift]

I know that Widow can help bluff cannibal

[rain parcel]

is legion enough

/hj

[olive drift]

But the scripts where Cannibals can be given ambigious info is cool

in any case, execute grandmothers/knights suddenly is a direction good can go

Cannibal+Death Prevention Science might be not ideal... but I think it's fairly reasonable friction

this also could be a thing

[still fern]

canni knight looks just utterly brutal in the cs landscape

I see the vision you're going for though

[olive drift]

you can always overlap pings

i think that's a fairly common way to run it

it is quite brutal in the sense that knight as a bluff just got a lot less viable

also reading into whether the pacifist saves the knight or not or smth

but ye balloonist can be foiled but without any silent outsiders it's strong

[lucid vault]

cannibal science is a ton of overlap

you don't need both imo

[olive drift]

mm

i think they can play together

even now science doesn't attract exeing specific people.

[surreal forge]

no

[olive drift]

it doesn't seem so

Anything is worth a shot because rn China Shop is markedly good sided

[rain parcel]

I'm joking

but also, unbluffable cannibal is like unbluffable dreamer

skill issue

[still fern]

canni knight/grandmother will not make it less so

[rain parcel]

nvm if I say that vati will say I pureed his take

[olive drift]

ok

well Shabalothing it has it's own issues

I would start going for something like Boffin and I don't want this to become a Boffin-Amne script

So that doesn't quite work

I don't see how to add more misinformation

Drunk w LoT is out.
Sweetheart is Widow Plague Doctor in disguise
Recluse mega messes w Savant... and doesn't interact with much else

It also is just loud misreg

[surreal forge]

what part is the half then

[rain parcel]

all of it

[surreal forge]

this is why I hate /hj

[rain parcel]

seriously tho unbluffable cannibal isn't that bad

(counter by pithag fang gu, legion)

[olive drift]

Village Idiot is another way of adding misinformation...

Erm... it's Village Idiot

quite off vibe but to be fair i'm getting a tad desperate

but VI is simply so pointing

balloonist feels better than vi

...

and i'm back where i started

[still fern]

you did

[olive drift]

ugh

savant isn't the issue

recluse TC is bad

maybe TC->VI

but VI is also... well it's a lot

evil already need great socials

and now they need to put up VIs with solid evil pings

[olive drift]

maybe I am underestimating the strength of cannibal

sigh

i have scriptbuilt myself into a hole

[wheat karma]

Its funny to see a poppygrower on a LoT script its a pseudo marionette script

[olive drift]

Have I gone insane

Will Hystrex cry?

[vapid escarp]

Yeah

[olive drift]

I thought Plague Doctor was core. It may well still be core and I need to put up with 1 jinx

[vapid escarp]

I don't think jinxes are a big deal in most cases

[olive drift]

Tbf it's the China Shop curse

If anyone publishes anything about it

The script will go through an update rendering it out of date

Axolator did that w 2.2

[vapid escarp]

😭

[olive drift]

jinxes icky

[vapid escarp]

Isn't spy misreg like actively negative utility outside of LoT

[olive drift]

No

In what way?

[vapid escarp]

Wait spy TL 😭 😭 😭 😭 😭

[vapid escarp]

Minions would rather get executed than the demon

[olive drift]

Spy makes noble Pings less reliable, can get confirmed through Science+Grandmothers

Can misreg as Outsider to Godfathers

Can get gambler confirmed. And

[vapid escarp]

In LoT all minions are one step away from flagbearers so registering as good is helpful actually

[olive drift]

Just by being there...

It opens up a lot of worlds

Like people can start going

[vapid escarp]

But like it's a frontloaded ability so it can and should just get executed in f3 or smth

[still fern]

It's a lot less helpful but definitely not negative utility

[olive drift]

"Hmm maybe that noble had a spy in their ping"

"So actually 2 evils"

[still fern]

yes you've gone insane

[olive drift]

It is silent misinformation

[vapid escarp]

I think gf is the one cool interaction here

[still fern]

spy won't fix typhon/noble

[olive drift]

Won't it 😔

I think part of the scripts issue though is that it's misinformation is so loud

Puzzlemaster and Widow pings are loud

If you have neither, good do v well

They have no reason to doubt their info

Now maybe it's on evil to be more active, claim widow Pings whenever possible, claim puzzlemaster whenever possible

[olive drift]

What if we ignore noble

[olive drift]

But... I think there still should be ways for info to go wrong if they don't follow that strategy

At least as a suggestion

Also the Witch Spy Town Crier trio is chefs kiss I have no issues

And spy at least adds to that paranoia

I want to try out a Spy version of China Shop

Maybe it won't work one bit

But at least I'm trying something new

I think Spy is a bigger world opener than Widow

While BMR-style Savant is really cool

It's not core

[olive drift]

I do think maybe 1 extra source of evil sided poison would be great

Maybe Xaa- oh wait I'm remaking Witch Hunt aren't I

[edgy stag]

could swap spy for widow

[olive drift]

Hmm maybe I sho- gets shot

Spy Cannibal is super wacky

[edgy stag]

yeah

[olive drift]

It might be better on another script

[edgy stag]

it was my only idea for like poison with some spy shit

[olive drift]

Yee

Guess what was on here before Spy like 24 hours ago

Widow

[edgy stag]

Lmfao

[olive drift]

It's been on here for like several months

[edgy stag]

My bad

[olive drift]

It's fine

It's actually really funny

So it's more than fine

[edgy stag]

Spy canni is always Ricky

Yo it’s Ricky

[olive drift]

Yee

[edgy stag]

I meant fucky

But

Ricky

[olive drift]

Cannibal wasn't on here until this version

I can find a replacdmr

Yup

A replacdmr

[edgy stag]

Indeed

You just need a 13th tf right

[olive drift]

Yee

Noble could fit

[edgy stag]

Yeahh

Hp?

[olive drift]

But Noble+Typhon is eh

High Priestess is super eh

[edgy stag]

Yeah

[olive drift]

On this scripy

Like

"Send them to an outsider they can trust" is a lot less powerful when outsider count is arbitrary

[still fern]

To be fair it was last on the script when evil won 100% of the time

So maybe it needs to go back on so that happens again 😎

[still fern]

Love the title btw

[olive drift]

"Catch an evil out in a bluff" is eh when Typhon transforms good players into Minions

Yee

This ain't a great HP script

[edgy stag]

Hmmm

Noble isn’t bad

[olive drift]

Noble isn't bad
Village Idiot might be disastrous or OK

[edgy stag]

Steward?

[olive drift]

Too much overlap with Grandmother

[edgy stag]

How wouldn’t vi be

Chaos

[olive drift]

The upside of VI is that it adds a drunk in larger VI numbers

And this script needs misinfo

The downside is... well its VI

[edgy stag]

Yeah

It’s strong

[olive drift]

Also VI Puzzlemaster is not a great combo

[edgy stag]

Yeah

[olive drift]

Knight was on every version

I took it off because with Widow->Spy, Knight now has even less reason to distrust their pings

It's strong

[edgy stag]

Too strong?

[olive drift]

It was ok on most versions

Maybe it is a Knight moment

The only reason for a Knight to distrust their Pings is exactly Puzzlemaster

[olive drift]

I think I'll just wait a week while I'm on holiday

And after that I'll drop a Spy version of China Shop w Noble. And if it goes poorly, it goes poorly. And if people like it, then people like it.

As for grimposting

I think this is OK

I see what you mean though. That noble has ruled out the Red Nuraghe Typhon line

Just by existing

On Nuraghe typhon line

You need to be much more careful w your pings

Knight doesn't rule out Typhon lines like that

Still, once you start keeping it in mind, it's quite possible to make noble info which doesn't disprove Typhon lines

It is much less flexible though

[olive drift]

In a 12 player game, there are 8 Typhon lines from a good player's point of view

Knight rules out 0-2 of them, depending where their pings are

Noble rules out 0-6 of them if you have spy on script, and can rule out 0-7 of them if you don't.

While Noble can work, you don't have as much freedom as usual because of LoT

Some bad pings can be really damaging to evil

Especially on a script w such low droison

[surreal forge]

VI LoT ⁉️

[olive drift]

Yeah,,,

[olive drift]

Version ??? - Spy Among Us

Do note. I am unsure if this version is better than 2.4, and i want data on 2.4. Please play that instead for now!

China Shop has produced very fun games! However, right now, it's also quite good sided. I am going to experiment with some ideas to see how it shakes up!

Widow -> Spy
Games with no Widow Pings and Puzzlemaster claims are ones where good can trust almost all of their information. Spy adds some silent misinformation which might open up worlds. Let's see it works!

Savant -> Fisherman
Savant is cool, but it can become incredibly head scratching with Spy misregistration.

Do let me know how games go!

[cloud thistle]

I welcome these changes

[quick pier]

spy is a lot worse with vigor tho

[surreal forge]

spy just registers as a tf so no poison

[quick pier]

well

i mean that could happen but don’t do that

i just mean vigor killed widow allows permapoison

spy is already even if dead with misreg and the grim doesn’t drastically change between nights in this script

[olive drift]

I agree

There is good reason why Widow was on here for so long

But trying to build China Shop without changing the evil team at all lead me to 2.4

Its fun, it's a good time, but it is good sided

[sand mulch]

how goodsided is it?

[olive drift]

Perhaps this isn't the change that's needed, but its worth giving a shot

Look at pins

[sand mulch]

i can see the individual character winrates

[olive drift]

Well

[sand mulch]

but whats the actual good v evil winrate

[olive drift]

You can look at the Demon's win rates for that

[sand mulch]

oh true

9 evil wins out of 24 games

[olive drift]

9/24

Ye

It's not terrible

Perhaps it's wiser to wait it out a bit further

But also in some groups where evil isn't that good at reading good

You have cases where its been played 7 times and it's been 7 good wins

[sand mulch]

so that could be skewing the data a bit

[olive drift]

That is true

But I think evil do have it a bit harder than good

38% evil v 62% good sounds quite dire, but maybe its not too bad

[olive drift]

Can someone pin this?

[olive drift]

Ideas of the utterly deranged
Replace Witch w Xaan, and Yaggababble w Ojo.

It makes China Shop approximately 20% less based

I mean... it takes away yet another p good Vigor kill

For now, I want to keep it as is. Yagga LoT Witch is a cool combo, as is Godfather Tinker Witch

I am worried these types of changes is losing the magic of China Shop

But... I think people are happy w whatever, as long as the script plays well

[olive drift]

The Yagg->Ojo change is by no means necessary. Just Yagg can't shine as much as it could without Witch

Thai Shop wouldn't have Town Crier though. Possibly Gossip.

It'd be a different beast.

[vapid escarp]

You are designing a different script

Fully

Maybe it's also a good script, but both witch and yagga are extremely core in my eyes

[olive drift]

I think its not that different

The core idea of "Demons copying Minion abilities" remains

Because Ojo can copy Assassin or Godfather

And an Ojo double kill can cover up the meddling DA, Spy or Xaan

The kill rate will be slower

[edgy stag]

Im personally of the opinion that yagga is core

As is witch

Yagga more so

[olive drift]

That's fun

I think Witch and Yagga stay on together

I also thought Yagga is core so kept it in my rework

I'm just noticing I'm not hating the Ojo version

[shy spoke]

imo, yagga works better than ojo

Also yagga + witch is fire

[olive drift]

I know it is! But Xaan also works well with the info puzzle side of the script

[shy spoke]

I'm scared of the Xaan + Knight + bad ST interaction

[olive drift]

Whats the issue there?

[shy spoke]

Suspected xaan 1 (becuase the grandmother saw something incorrect, general evil winning N1, etc) means you kill the Knight pings?

STs probably shouldn't put the demon in loudly droisoned night pings, but it's definitely something to be concerned about

[olive drift]

Sure

Lemme just say smth about that

Right now, in 2.5, the only way knight Pings are bad is puzzlemaster

I think that's not ideal

"Xaan 1" can be Vigor, LoT or Godfather Outsider mod

[shy spoke]

Widow too?

[olive drift]

2.5

Widow->Spy

[shy spoke]

Oh right, mb

[olive drift]

It's an experiment

It may or may not work

But w Widow also, you need someone announcing the ping

All misinformation is announced loudly

If none is, good can always trust N1 info

Maybe China Shop works if evil always takes Puzzlemaster/Widow calls up

It requires active evil play

(2.4)

Knight is a weak link on 2.5 but I can't find a good replacement

[wheat karma]

Widespread town droison + calculated killings💀

[quick pier]

that guy who made ojo china shop predicted it…

he’s the messiah

[olive drift]

That "guy" isn't a guy firstly (it's me)

Oh

Wait

It is me 💀

I did suggest ojo as a beginner friendly alternative to someone

To yagg

How the turn tables

[quick pier]

wait no wasn’t there like

someone who remade this script but with ojo and a bunch of other changes

[olive drift]

He added Fang Gu

[olive drift]

I suggested Ojo as a replacement for Yagg

[wheat karma]

Knight is too western.
Shugenja is eastern and fit the theme.

[olive drift]

I did try Shugenja but I think it's too strong

There also is Koraa Shop, which swaps Widow/Spy for Xaan & Grandmother for Savant

There are upsides and downsides for each version sadly

Spy has v interesting interactions, but doesn't interact with knight much.
Knight is a pretty core Townsfolk bc not much better exists.

Widow has both grimpeaking and volume, which fits w the theme well. But evil need to know to bluff Puzzlemaster or Widow ping or risk outing that the game has v little misinformation.

Xaan works as misinformation and science can be used to solve the Xaan number. It isn't a grimpeaker though so grandmother becomes displaced.

[lucid vault]

gf/xaan together is a lot

[olive drift]

Perhaps

V2.4 is a tad good sided

Maybe it is more balanced than I give credit. 9/24 isn't bad

[lucid vault]

maybe evil's gotten used to an easy game and hasn't adapted?

evil could kinda just coast on earlier versions

[olive drift]

It was played quite a lot in a playgroup where evil don't do v well

With 0/7 games being evil wins

[olive drift]

Maybe?

I think evil in non widow Puzzlemaster games often need to claim ping or Puzzlemaster to get good distrusting their info

I don't think good mechsolves here

Their abilities help but its often evil doing a social blunder which then leads to it all crashing down

And on a script w limited Demon protection, that's curtains

[rugged kiln]

yeah, i think mine and @lilac ridge's IRL playgroup played this last version quite a bit, and I think good tends to win our games more than not

[olive drift]

I also think that evil instead do... better the instant one of them claim to have a misinfo ping

Like to the point that not doing it is going to cause issues

[rugged kiln]

I also on policy do not out widow pings immediately (although I usually do day one after private chats)

[olive drift]

Yee

It's just tough for evil to figure that out

[rugged kiln]

idk in 12p or less it isn't too difficult i find

just have a chat with the other minion d1

[olive drift]

That's valid to the point I said

But I didn't make my intended point clear

[rugged kiln]

oh i see what you mean, its tough for evil to intuit that when seeing the script for the first time

yeah, I think I agree with that more or less

[olive drift]

In a Typhon game, Minions are terrified to talk to each other

[rugged kiln]

that's true

[olive drift]

Your point is valid too

But ye usually Typhon minions assume there is a Widow because there is more of them

And they don't want to be seen to be coordinating

[rugged kiln]

yeah fair

i guess in that scenario, i'd probably leave it up to the widow to claim or not

[olive drift]

So they don't mess around w that stuff unless the widow poisins themselves

[rugged kiln]

yeah

hmm

risky tho

[olive drift]

It is!

So I'm trying to move the script towards more quiet misinformation

[rugged kiln]

hmmm yeah I see the desire behind this push now

poisoner jk

[olive drift]

Yeah the two options seek to be Spy or Xaan

[rugged kiln]

yeah, and both are awkward imo

spy doesn't do enough in terms of misinfo

[olive drift]

Well I can go over what I like about both

Spy adds misinformation for Balloonist, Town Crier, and the Science characters

Which is neat

I think the Balloonist spy interaction of seeing 2 minions in a row feels very fair

[rugged kiln]

well actually i'm looking at the script and is actually good at creating more global (rather than localised) misinfo

[rugged kiln]

so i take this back

[olive drift]

And also Spy gives another way for a Godfather to kill

Which is incredibly sneaky and neat

[rugged kiln]

ooh fun

i think i kinda don't hate spy here now

[olive drift]

I replace Savant for Fisherman bc Spy Savant is eh

But yes, that is the thinking behind v2.5

[rugged kiln]

when you first swapped widow for spy i was kinda unsure about it

but now i'm a lot more onboard

[olive drift]

I think evil having the ability to go

"Maybe that pacifist save was a spy"

And similar

Will give wiggle room

My issue with spy though is the Knight in the room

[rugged kiln]

yeah, that's fair

[olive drift]

0 interaction with Knight, and now Knight is only gonna be wrong because Puzzlemaster

[rugged kiln]

knight -> steward is the obvious fix, but maybe you wanna keep knight for other reasons

[olive drift]

And there isn't a food replacement

[olive drift]

This for instance. Grandmother and Steward have mega overlap

It feels off

[rugged kiln]

yeah fair, agreed on that one

[olive drift]

So

What lead me to the blasphemy that is Thai Shop

[rugged kiln]

I mean noble?? idk that's not a like for like anymore