China Shop

[olive drift]

i guess fish can go onm i dont see many better alternatives. da gets a bit less bluffspace oh well

[fringe socket]

The Knight ping there is a blessing and a curse. It means we know exactly who the LoT is but dont really have a reason to execute them "just in case"

Is Dreamer on script i fogor

[still fern]

It's not

[olive drift]

its not

dreamer could be on

but dreamer yaggababble is not very fun I don't think?

its gpood with a lot of other styff

i'll think further on acrobat v fish

i do think acro is really strong here bc it can stay alive for a while

when nothing quite fits i am tempted to relook at my basic assumptions and try and rebalance

question

is innkeeper core?

[edgy stag]

after the game i just saw

yes

[olive drift]

pff

alright

[edgy stag]

stick blocked every demon kill

[olive drift]

i know and that's very cool

but this script isn't as death heavy as I expected

[edgy stag]

i think it has the potential to be

[olive drift]

ye it does

[edgy stag]

i need to run yagga irl

[olive drift]

yagga games can go quick

LoT games can flip in an instant

[edgy stag]

yeah

i think its just about considering balancing for irl rather than text

[olive drift]

ye

its not a good text script

[still fern]

Most of the yagga games I've heard of weren't that kill-heavy tbh

[olive drift]

ye

at smaller numbers they can be

[still fern]

Especially for nightkills

[olive drift]

but it all blends in

[still fern]

But even for fake witchkills a yagga who's yapping too much is obvious here

[olive drift]

Also depends on the yagg

yee

and that's why I'm wondering

[edgy stag]

the most ive had a yagga kill in text mind you was 4that includes 1 night and 3 day

[olive drift]

if having too much protection is an issue

[still fern]

I think it's mostly just that philo is too gigachad

[olive drift]

these are core townsfolk I think. They are ones which I think are very unproblematic with the script idea

mayor might not be core core

tbh

[still fern]

mayor already core 🔥

[olive drift]

i'll take mayor off because there is a possibility of alsaahir in theory

but ye its a v good townsfolk

I don't have balloonist on because this script doesnt have good hidden outsiders so balloonist can't really shine like it does on other scripts with drunk or lunatic or smth

i'm happy to have it on

I do think its a bit less neat

this could be a thing.

no one has had issues with balloonist so far tbf

ugh

[still fern]

You're starting to run low on positive outsider mod so I like balloonist

[olive drift]

yee

godfather and lot prolly is enough tbf tho

[still fern]

typhon has flipped to neutral/negative here

I mean the livevoice had 0 outsiders in the bag

[vapid escarp]

Godfather has enough cover

[olive drift]

yee 0 outsiders and

[vapid escarp]

More OM isn't necessary

[olive drift]

still lost 😭

[still fern]

assassin moment

[olive drift]

the real weirdness is base 0 vigor gf games

[still fern]

but yeah honestly I like how balloonist feels here? it's strong but if town's complaint is that the info is too directionless it's probably worse to replace it with acro

[olive drift]

yee

this town looks insane ngl

i guess this is the gist

[quick pier]

wait what was changed

[vapid escarp]

There's a fish now

Philo is gone

Maybe that's all?

[fringe socket]

https://tenor.com/view/fish-spin-sha-gif-26863370

[olive drift]

That would be it if finalised

[shy spoke]

!json

[sinful crescent]

CHINA SHOP V2.3 by Autumn

[{"id":"_meta","author":"Autumn","name":"CHINA SHOP V2.3"},"knight","grandmother","balloonist","general","town_crier","innkeeper","gambler","savant","fisherman","amnesiac","tea_lady","mayor","pacifist","tinker","plague_doctor","moonchild","puzzlemaster","godfather","devils_advocate","witch","assassin","widow","yaggababble","vigormortis","lord_of_typhon"]

[olive drift]

Version 2.3

Philosopher -> Fisherman

Giving good team just another pointer to help them find potential evils. Philosopher does disrupt bagbuilding on this script, and this is a script which requires careful bagbuilding to work.

[olive drift]

Vigor win!

to be fair, some of that was due to some more inexperienced plays (Gambler gambling the mayor as godfather, poor gambler)

but it was a close final 3 I think

Balloonist learnt Witch N1 and then Town Crier N2 and tunneled on the Town Crier being evil

Town Crier was spreading misinformation after a N2 vigor poison

[still fern]

Realest tc

[olive drift]

TBF I was really split because N2 it was literally only the Mayor who nommed

So I gave a no bc that mayor player is usually pretty good at finding shenanagins

But the yes the night after was truly false and bad

I gave the Fisherman advice I have never gave before. Its quite nice on here, like it is nice everywhere

D2 advice: Don't let Perci nominate. Reasoning was perci was a mayor claim in a town crier no who was currently witch cursed.

still executed the mayor 🥲

because players didn't expect the 0 outsider vigormortis game

and vigor kinda sailed under a plague doctor bluff

I did realise I was flying p near to the sun when perci pointed out from teh town crier info that michael+perci can't be an evil team. In that moment I felt maybe the mayor was gonna build too much trust

but ye I think good had enough to solve (maybe even slightly too much I think. This is a pretty strong town for quite limited misinformation. Good team got close even with the gambler blowing themselves up at the first opportunity.)

Then again, the witch did fail to curse the correct players so it wasn't impossible for evil by any stretch

stuff like knight and grandmother get a lot stronger tho the instant no one is claiming widow ping or puzzlemaster.

[still fern]

Yeah I noticed that in the livevoice game with 0 outsiders in a 12p

[olive drift]

ye

[still fern]

The info was all just...obviously true

[olive drift]

ye

which does take away quite a big part of clocktower

[olive drift]

and yet they still didn't win sob

what a weird script

it was why drunk was on very early versions

unsolvable drunk though isn't ideal either

spy could work but idl spy+savant

what's weird though is for a script which has more information than trouble brewing, and less misinformation than trouble brewing, evil still are doing quite well

(i do think vigor games are difficult tho)

this one was kinda a perfect showcase of what vigor can do

[still fern]

It turns out the [+1 Minion] demon is really strong when you aren't, like, lovejinxing it with Shugeja

[olive drift]

ye

yagga doesn't do badly either at all

[still fern]

I keep being thiiiis close to writing the hideously overlong vigor wall of text

[vapid escarp]

Do it

[olive drift]

and all it does is kill a lot

[still fern]

it's all just "literally just kill your minions lol" in longer form

[olive drift]

applepie's misinformation did save the game for evil

[still fern]

because yeah the problem people have is they don't kill their minions early enough or often enough, because it is fundamentally discontinuous from other evil nightkills demons that want more backloaded playstyles

[olive drift]

it did make applepie feel like a must have execution which was great bc she was 'outing evil'

[still fern]

not surprisingly, people who actually use their abilities win more often than people who don't

[olive drift]

mm

[vapid escarp]

Right because you wanna junk info late if you can help it but vigor doesn't junk

[still fern]

Moreso: it is the only evil nightkills demon that does not directly move or obscure the demon token, i.e. that isn't a backup plan for the evil team

[olive drift]

this game even if it was a vigor win... I still feel like good team was really favoured here

the gambler making an actual real attempt at gambling anyone would have swung the game in favour of good

[vapid escarp]

I mean that's almost the same statement (through a different lens)

[still fern]

gambler is just like that lol

[vapid escarp]

-# I promise misinfo202 is coming, it needs a bit more time to simmer but it's almost there

[still fern]

half the games I see of this script the gambler is some form of droisoned and confirms the whole evil team

[olive drift]

ye

i want to justify adding more misinformation

but sadly the data doesn't back it up

[vapid escarp]

When I ran it the gambler confirmed half the town and had to get demon killed

[olive drift]

ye

oh wiat

you said the opposite thing

xD

[still fern]

It's complicated -- Zombuul does something somewhat different to junking existing info but it still deals directly with "who the demon is", and Legion another thing again in the same way

[vapid escarp]

Fair enough

[vapid escarp]

Yeah lol

Actually in one game it did that and in the other it died immediately (and still got demon killed bc why would the demon know that the gambler died that night)

[olive drift]

ye

[vapid escarp]

I don't really think of those at evil nightkilling demons, they're just demons that are ok with dying and can do so at night

But that's a valid way to look at it

[still fern]

They're in the cluster of demons that naturally or semi-naturally produce evil nightkills

[vapid escarp]

Yeah

[still fern]

Legion is sort of at the extreme end here because it's a Poisoner for them, i.e. it forces worldbuilding around far more early evil nightkills than is naturally possible

Which distorts other demons that do so on the same script

[vapid escarp]

Zombuul selfkill is just a Nash equilibrium

Mechanically it's suboptimal until the good team realizes that and uses that knowledge which makes it strong and it just spirals inward to a point

Anyways china shop

[olive drift]

LoT 9W / 3L - 75% WR
Yaggababble 4W / 3L - 57% WR
Vigor 3W / 3L - 50% WR

16W v 9L - 64% WR
So far.

what I'm hearing is that we make zombuul the secret 5th demon

after ojo, the secret 4th Demon

[still fern]

27 character script

[olive drift]

sigh ojo is really goated on here lol

so are the other demons

what's the p factor right now?

probably not much lower

it is kinda funny seeing the other two demons have reasonable winrates and then there is Lord of Typhon

[shy spoke]

You have 25 games listed at the top, then 26 games listed at the bottom?

Anyways, perhaps a better way of determining balance would be winrate in DA games vs non-DA games?

LoT is likely so strong as it has a DA in 60% of games at 2 minion

Hopefully mayor helps it out?

[olive drift]

fixed

we'll see

using past versions of the script in data will skew it. I do think good team might be favoured here in Vigor games a fair amount for example

[shy spoke]

I think vigor being the only droisoning demon gives it a nice edge over the others?

It's probably only good-sided with a philo-TL protected innkeeper lol

[olive drift]

Ye vigor poison on a misinfo light script does in theory mean that players lean into their info harder

Which helps

[olive drift]

But even this game good had a mayor in a TC no, and in fisherman advice telling them to trust the mayor. If the gambler had confirmed stuff rather than instantly dying, I don't think evil have enough

Definitely could have changed the advice if good was doing well, and the mayor could have died on final night rather than bouncing like I did

But this grim is definitely above TB levels of information without TB levels of misinformation or evil flexibility

[shy spoke]

Yeah, the demon sort of has to fly under the radar a little

[olive drift]

Ye and I guess compared to TB, the evil team composition is much more varied

[olive drift]

Vigor loss!

[still fern]

livevoice? 👀

[olive drift]

no

other server

[still fern]

ah I recognized some livevoice names

knight ping on a mayor is intense even with that typhon-ass placement

I love how this script produces disproportionately many chef 2s

[olive drift]

yee

Also vigor tried to kill a minion

And then they proceeded to be innkeeper protected

:P

Innkeeper and vigor is rough

innkeeper is so strong against a simple vigor

that is the 2nd game an innkeeper destroyed a poor vigor

[still fern]

it's true that a script where the only multikill demon is Yagga "ST-Dictated Kills" Babble is probably a weird spot for innkeeper

like realistically you're not preventing other evilsided kills because you're just preventing the godfather who I have never, ever seen get a kill here

assassin stabs through

and protecting the gambler is...not helpful

[olive drift]

i honestly feel like

innkeeper is an issue here

I get how clutch it is against typhon and that's the uneasy balance I need to navigate

[still fern]

it honestly really isn't

like in practice what it does in typhon games is protect the gambler and do nothing else

[olive drift]

mm

maybe I take it off?

honestly

[still fern]

typhon itself is 1kpn, godfather doesn't get kills much, assassin stabs through

[olive drift]

like that's why i asked whether innkeeper was actually core

it doesn't interact with much that well, mainly droisons typhon lines, but by that point it is too late

liek

and this is two games where I really think it wasn't the philo that was the issue

but the innkeeper

Like the whole innkeeper tea lady thing still exists here

[still fern]

sailor's been discussed for this script before, right?

[olive drift]

It's lees likely but it still can happen

I am considering it

[still fern]

I sort of like the idea

[olive drift]

sailor+info is just weird

[still fern]

it does some of the same things without occasionally falling into insane tl hypersynergy

[olive drift]

i'm also considering acrobat. but only 3 things would kill it.

[still fern]

it's not much more weird than innkeeper/info

[olive drift]

Philo can also come back on

[still fern]

acro just solves here if it ever dies I think

[olive drift]

yee

sadly too little droison

from specific sources

fool is also a thing

I don't mind fool tbh

back to 4 DA things

doesn't do anything sadly

ugh

[wraith flume]

I mean, although it isn’t targeted death protection, it’s still a game decelerant like IK, but avoids the issue of destroying vigor, and also protects against daytime deaths (which IK doesn’t)

I agree that it “does less” than IK, which could be a problem, and you might not want so many TF which essentially just have passive abilities, but it’s not that bad

[olive drift]

ita fine

good are strong enough antwawy

[wraith flume]

you can even sink a yagga kill into fool, which is a lot less feels-bad than sinking it into an IK protected player

[olive drift]

yee

[olive drift]

is philo still an issue?

like philo tea lady is strong, but I think innkeeper was the problem there

i get it tho

makes bagbuilding difficult

hm what else then

[still fern]

Philo is very very strong here

[olive drift]

ye

i think fool is ok

[still fern]

I mean snv barely holds it in check by having a ton of wacky options to gravitate towards (snake charmer, mutant)

[olive drift]

yeee

i like philo bc it gives DA smth to bluff and it is a reasonable thing that disrupts other stuff

but ye

[still fern]

on scripts where good isn't really incentivized to play against itself it gets very very strong

[olive drift]

fool is lower power

sailor is like ok...

so ye

[still fern]

philo-savant is one of the sane options

klutz is one of the wacky options it encourages people to take yes

damsel is not on snv

[lucid vault]

booooo

[still fern]

puzzlemaster is only sort of on snv

[lucid vault]

wait why did s&v ship with philo-shugenja

that's a combo

[still fern]

works with the script's info landscape because the amount of misinfo increases over time 😎

[lucid vault]

should've replaced it with clock or something

[still fern]

nah imagine how unbalanced that'd be

[lucid vault]

(ok but genuinely considering starting to go philo-clock n2 when i pull the token)

(it's so strong)

[still fern]

it is, but it works against turning into the demon rather than in favour of it, so I'm gonna keep picking snake charmer

[lucid vault]

wait, so you're telling me people who go philo-snake are trying to become the demon instead of getting vortox proof half FT nos every night?!

[still fern]

[lucid vault]

then why do they keep claiming philosopher d1 😭

[still fern]

sometimes you forgor

[lucid vault]

(i did forget you did this and i'm sorry)

(this was meant as a general comment)

[still fern]

no I did this as the demon and that was because I didn't decide until like d2 I was going to bluff philo sc so I had to say I forgor

[lucid vault]

still counts

[still fern]

I was considering philo savant but I didn't feel like it

I was terrified someone would go "no vati is too much of a goddamn obsessive to forget that"

anyway the pro strat is to claim it because you know so you can go "see it's a bluffed snakecharm I wouldn't claim it here"

[olive drift]

Potential Innkeeper Replacements
Sailor - DA bluff, causes droison. I don't really know if that feels ok for the script.
Fool - DA bluff. Slows down game. I don't see what it does outside of that, and I think game can be steady.
Alsaahir - Doesn't slow down game. Honestly, good now have enough info to support an alsaahir I think. Might combo not ideally with mayor.
Banshee - Love it in theory. Not very strong. In practice I don't think it works out.
Soldier - I think this is just a less interesting fool? Fine in theory though.
Acrobat - Speeds up game. Very limited ways to die makes it gamesolving.
Village Idiot - Ehh? I guess??? Not very neat combo with puzzlemaster though. Can be very strong.

I think of these Fool or Alsaahir seem like the best options?

good have a lot more to support an alsaahir now

and I like it becuase it does something

I can feel good putting it in a vigor game

Fool combos better with Devil's Advocate and can be put into high death games

despite me in theory liking fool... I think I might lean towards alsaahir. Though I will admit Alsaahir can be very strong in lower player counts against Lord of Typhon

Fool does also give more reasons for no night deaths

while not being repeatable

also a very easy thing to sink yagg kills into which makes the yagg do something for when they said it enough for 1 kill but not quite enough for 2

I think Fool is innkeepery while also being a good DA bluff, a reasonable bait character for yagg. It is a little harsh against vigor but not half as harsh compared to what innkeeper was

[still fern]

just don't hit the fool

[olive drift]

ye I think its fool honestly. Though Alsaahir is also now really interesting again

ye

[still fern]

I still think sailor is a more interesting claim than fool

[olive drift]

I agree that Sailor is a more interesting bluff

I don't like Sailor where the drunkenness just causes bad info rather than a lack of a mechanical effect

Either you give bad info and whoops you confirmed the very difficult to kill sailor

or you just give sober info to townsfolk anyway

Sailor works on BMR but there are only 5 BMR townsfolk on here

And it doesn't work very well with the non-BMR stuff

I am getting very aware that there isn't much droison here

but ye, tea lady, fool (and amne) being 2.5 reasons for no night deaths is kinda like trouble brewing

I can't believe how quickly this thing is getting updated 😭

honestly

is Fisherman->Alsaahir anything too?

I might do the most important change which is swapping out Innkeeper for something that isn't innkeeper

and will forever now agree that it is indeed a townsfolk oh my god

but I'll consider Alsaahir in future too. The issue is that good team do seem to solve the typhon games, its just they can't do anything about them

hmm

i do want smol thoughts on this

fisherman or alsaahir

fisherman is better at generating leads

Which seems to be an issue that good team has

or creating trust chains

But also, I keep hearing that good do narrow down the typhon line, its just about them getting the typhon out

Alsaahir can help good clutch before its too late

I'll let my thoughts stew on it for a bit

I think alsaahir is decently strong on this script

Like the version where alsaahir felt they had nothing much to go off had knight, grandmother (but often they won't out), balloonist (goat), and savant to help it mainly, as well as the pacifist stuff and tea lady but that isn't immediately obvious.

It is a much better fit here with a gambler and town crier to help it out

[olive drift]

I'm spitballing. i would like thoughts about this because yea I'm seriously considering Alsaahir for Fisherman and I would like another perspective if possible on it

I think Alsaahir works really really cooly with Mayor

I think Alsaahir if not dealt with can be a monster against typhon lines

and can also help defuse typhon line paranoia

Basically, I think these interactions make alsaahir shine

IDK if they make the script as good as it can be

But this feels like a good home for it now

json for this version in case people wanna do stuff iwth it

Fool and Alsaahir are definitely both lower power options

But I think good needs those really in non Typhon games

1 worry with alsaahir is that it can lead to random early victories whil it is ruling out worlds

bc LoT locks in where its minions are so much

[olive drift]

Alsaahir also isn't the best puzzledrunk target compared to a fisherman which is something to consider

but it is still ok

ima do it. And if it doesn't work out there is always fisherman

Version 2.4

Sudden Returns
Innkeeper -> Fool
Fisherman -> Alsaahir

The Innkeeper works great on Bad Moon Rising! The demons on there can kill at a dizzying pace. The Demons here cannot. After two Vigormortis games in which the Innkeeper either completely nullified the Vigor, or got in the way of their plans, it's pretty clear that these two characters don't play nicely together. I want to keep Vigormortis on for now, and I think Innkeeper is becoming a weak link here. Fool is another bait character, which is something this script was lacking, and brings the number of Devil's Advocate bluffable characters to 4 again! It does slow down the game a bit, but doesn't get in the way of Vigormortis kills. Welcome back!

The Alsaahir was scrapped on this script because they did not have enough guidance from the good team. Times have changed. Now with the Gambler and Town Crier to help them out, the Alsaahir has been given another chance to shine! If it doesn't work out, there is always Fisherman . The Fisherman is a good fit for the script, and there is plenty of interesting advice hidden here. I just want to see whether Alsaahir is an even better fit!

[vapid escarp]

omw to make an amne that's just innk without the drunking /j

[olive drift]

pff

hm

alsaahir in theory was on because of vigor DA. maybe fish is better against that, but hey. if it gets vigor poisoned not much it can do

[lucid vault]

want a pin?

[olive drift]

sure

[olive drift]

yay

time for it to be outdated in about 3 days!

[vapid escarp]

Yeah I'm not updating my printed scripts until I feel that this has solidified lol

[olive drift]

Fair

I think innkeeper off is the most solid change

Unless I want to start messing with ojo I don't think it'll get back on

But alsaahir vs fish is anyone's guess

[wraith flume]

I think mayor is better than both against vigor DA so it’s less big of a deal now

does help that alsaahir is another way to deal with it though

[olive drift]

Yee

Alsaahir also is p nice with Mayor bc it can try and confirm them

[shy spoke]

The most decisive moment of the game is usually final 4, that's also conveniently when the fisherman should use their ability. I think it had a nice synergy with IK too.

I think it's just IK + TL being broken together

[olive drift]

Yee

One had to go. I noticed how well games to play without innkeeper in play. Its a decent bluff tho tbf.

[olive drift]

Hm

The fisherman was put on to give leads in the early game

My worries with fisherman is that if it uses it in the early game theres not many ways its advice could go wrong

[quick pier]

how often can town figure out if it’s a LoT game or not?

because that’s my only worry with alsaahir

since you have to guess an extra minion

[olive drift]

Often it seems

Its more an issue of getting the damn thing on the block

[quick pier]

fair enough

[olive drift]

And then realising 'oh crap we wasted all our votes and they're DA protected'

good team don't get leads immediately but whatever leads they do get are fairly reliable

Widow leaves a ping, and Puzzlemaster needs to be in play

Vigormortis is the only silent droison

[olive drift]

Also Alsaahir Lord of Typhon is around equal to the other demons. Yes you need to decide while making the guess whether you want to be guessing LoT or the other demon world, but the Minions being forced into a specific pattern helps the Alsaahir

[olive drift]

Gonna try and run a scheduled live game

#event-listings message

Link if anyone wants to join

actually oops I have D&D then lemme just move the date to something a tad later

[olive drift]

Collecting players for China Shop now

[cloud thistle]

are you still?

[olive drift]

well

trying to

but unlikely

Queue split

So we have 3 games starting at the exact same time

Pretty unlucky

[cloud thistle]

ah rough

I have remembered suddenly that I have never played a game on this server and don't understand anything lmao

[olive drift]

pffffffffffffffff

wait really

[cloud thistle]

genuinely never

I only play with my in person group

[olive drift]

it's p chill

[surreal forge]

you should play livetext

[cloud thistle]

i prefer live voice

[olive drift]

sadly china shop isn't the best for livetext 😭

i mean livetext is betetr than longtext

for a yagg script

OK

Back to collecting players

:)

[cloud thistle]

the event has already passed so I can't rsvp

[olive drift]

i see

you can just join the vc

#scheduled-game-chat

[olive drift]

Evil won

[cloud thistle]

Sorry I had to leave I need to eat

Script is solid

Good Storytelling too

[olive drift]

Yeee thank youu!!!

[cloud thistle]

Really unfortunate what happened to me lol

[olive drift]

yee

Pacifist science is the most unstable science

[cloud thistle]

I should have been more suspicious

[olive drift]

It was unfortunate that the executions & deaths were perhaps the worst ones possible for good

[cloud thistle]

Yeah it was pretty terrible

But not much you could do about that

Also this server is so European wtf

[olive drift]

Yee

[cloud thistle]

I always pictured you as an American

[olive drift]

I have control over bag

pff

i guess my name is pretty american coded now that I think about it

[cloud thistle]

If your name was American coded it would be fall

[lucid vault]

autumn on their way to change their server username to fall

[olive drift]

true

no

i won't

i refuse

https://tenor.com/view/bhibatsam-cute-kid-fall-down-kid-baby-steps-getup-gif-26026591

this is my fall

[cloud thistle]

That pacifist in the corner didn’t save her

Just like @cinder dock didn’t save me

[olive drift]

yee.

[cinder dock]

hehe

Just winning lol

[olive drift]

poor alsaahir. had it been a fisherman I'd have given the advice DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES DO SCIENCE

but that's why I like alsaahir

Also

everyone was building the Nuraghe Kamekura Sponge world

When... you ruled that out?

First/last alsaahir guess ruled it out

[cloud thistle]

Yeah I was confident it wasn’t that LoT setup

I almost did nuraghe as demon

But changed last second

Omg and Taki said slightly good night 1 and I just said verbally “okay so probably Vigormortis” and then forgot

[olive drift]

yeee

Taki saying 'oh Evil is winning so probably both evils are alive'

[cloud thistle]

That was my first game since December so I’m a bit out of it lol

We shouldn’t have executed

[olive drift]

Like, wow I realised how General isn't just budget oracle

Because ye 1 evil is dead but it's poisoning your Mayor and screams

[lucid vault]

it's "ysk the demon type" instead

[olive drift]

Ye when you almost didn't execute I was like

[fierce kestrel]

Ysk if it's Vigor

[olive drift]

tbf after that game I think Vigor DA isn't 'slightly good' if sat next to the mayor+alsaahir

LoT 9W / 3L - 75% WR
Yaggababble 4W / 3L - 57% WR
Vigor 4W / 3L - 57% WR

17W v 9L - 65% WR

Idk if I should feel happy or sad. The demons seem balanced against each other at least, but that win puts evil winrate so high 😭

tbf I think alsaahir is really potent against LoT because its a right of passage to rule out LoT worlds as the Alsaahir on here.

[lucid vault]

it falls off with playercount though; in a 13p LoT game you need 3 separate guesses to rule out a line (the demon in each middle spot)

[olive drift]

yee

small games its very good

big games the poor alsaahir has to think

[still fern]

the legendary 7p china shop

[still fern]

that's when you learn an 8

[olive drift]

This game deffo makes me feel a bit better about alsaahir tho

[cloud thistle]

It’s a good addition

Especially in smaller games

This was also my first Alsaahir game

And my first time playing a Lord of Typhon script (though I have run one)

[olive drift]

I might try and get another game... maybe even livetext if I get more people that way

[sand mulch]

people were trying to recruit for china shop earlier today

[olive drift]

Ye

that was me

if it was the scheduled game

[lucid vault]

in livetext

[lucid vault]

(it didn't fire)

[olive drift]

Awww

[olive drift]

Gonna run a scheduled livevoice game again on Wednesday 26th!

[olive drift]

and I guess another livevoice tomorrow (Wednesday 19th) at 12pm?!

[sick gust]

Above time (12:00 GMT) in your local time · Mar 19, 2025, 12:00 PM

[olive drift]

will be running his in scheduled in 30 mins

[olive drift]

alsaahir insta win

[vapid escarp]

Oh that's a fun amne

[olive drift]

Evil win!

[quick pier]

did the gf get a kill

[olive drift]

"It feels like" was the phrase. The Godfather -1 helped immensely with bluffing and made people misbuild demon type

No

Both went totally off script with the bluffs. (Godfather took Balloonist, Queso to Puzzlemaster)

But it worked very well

The 2nd game felt close though

Evil played really well and I don't think the game was served up to them on a silver platter at all

[olive drift]

LoT 9W / 4L - 69% WR
Yaggababble 5W / 3L - 63% WR
Vigor 4W / 3L - 57% WR

18W v 10L - 64% WR

I think now the demon winrates are balancing out which is really cool. Its now whether good can win games v evil.

I am pretty happy with this version of the script though. Like the game where good lost with the yaggababble was close and felt fair. the frame had built the correct world, and it could have equally been a good win if jeremiah had nommed first.

I am pretty happy where this script is at. Everything works together pretty well.

Good have the tools to defeat a good typhon line, and everything flows into each other very well.

[wheat karma]

I need help why does yagababble and LoT doesnt show in clocktower online?

[shy spoke]

Use .live as the old website hasn't been updated to include the new roles.

[olive drift]

Do say how it goes and have fun running it

[wheat karma]

have been using old version for the past two weeks 😞

[olive drift]

Running this in 1h 30 minutes!

In scheduled

[olive drift]

GATHERING PLAYERS FOR CHINA SHOP NOW 🎉 🎉

Join for... a game!

[olive drift]

Good Mayor win!

4W/4L - 50% WR

[cloud thistle]

Oh my god mayor wins work

[olive drift]

yes

they do

[still fern]

livevoice, missed the details but I think evil ''''''''''''''''''mayor won''''''''''''''''''

@lilac ridge how was it?

[cinder dock]

Evil did win lol yagga claimed mayor. It was fun 🙂

[lilac ridge]

I really liked it I think good had all the tools they needed to solve the game

Evil played well and gained a bunch of social trust

I think this is my favorite version of the script

Mayor is especially nice with da

[olive drift]

Hahaha what a great phrase

[quick pier]

vati played livevoice!!!!!!

[still fern]

I specced it

[olive drift]

vati specced

[still fern]

I want to play more livevoice though

[olive drift]

I am 2000% sure

[still fern]

when are you up next kenoboi 👀

[quick pier]

possibly tomorrow morning

[olive drift]

what types of script does keneboi run

[quick pier]

whatever they vote for lol

[olive drift]

i see3

what makes you a BMRhead

[quick pier]

because i enjoy the mechanics and design of Bad Moon Rising over the other gamemodes

[olive drift]

what's so special about it

[quick pier]

just the design of the characters

they’re all very weird and mechanical and, as Kurt puts it “trip over each other” but they all work together and flow really nicely

despite some of them being horrible in vacuums

[olive drift]

BMR is designed to trip over each other

I really want to make a BMR but info script

[quick pier]

also i think it requires the most ST skill to run out of the base 3 editions

[olive drift]

That's fair

[quick pier]

that’s kinda fundamentally impossible if you’re a hardline traditionalist

oh god i’m speaking in vati terms now

[olive drift]

What do you mean by that

[quick pier]

uh vati do you have a BMRlike alignment chart yet

or just SNV

[olive drift]

By BMR but info, I mean characters that 'trip over each other' by making info true or false, or reversing it, having Minions that do the same

[still fern]

the snvlike alignment chart is axo's

[quick pier]

oh fr?

[still fern]

I disagree with several placements

[olive drift]

And then you need to figure out what stuff actually means at the end of the day

[quick pier]

oh this is just GoS

[olive drift]

yes

[still fern]

however axo also knows more scripts than me

[olive drift]

it's what I believe GoS will be like

And I am trying to make it work but...

How do I make people lie 😭

anywya

[still fern]

actually now that I've absorbed axo's script knowledge we might be tied

[cloud thistle]

We were literally just talking about this in spec and spoilers lol

[olive drift]

I have some ideas

From my homebrew

[cloud thistle]

It’s lowkey the thing I’m least confident about, and while I have some ideas that I know are correct, it’s not enough

[olive drift]

OK lemem check it out

[cloud thistle]

There needs to be a second idea to tie it together

[lucid vault]

it's in this channel I think

I don't fully agree with my own chart but it's hard to make

@quick pier

[lucid vault]

it's cute that you think my tumblr blog holds all of my script knowledge

the blog and the doc I sent you way back? that's actually pretty close

[still fern]

I'm synthesizing the blog, the doc, and like 2 million discord posts

[lucid vault]

I don't think all that fits on my index card

[surreal forge]

index card?

[lucid vault]

vati has mental index cards about everyone with strange information on them that he's picked up

[surreal forge]

autismcore

[still fern]

Actually I interact with the world through bizarre details and convoluted monologues and inveterate contrarianism and all-consuming paranoia for very neurotypical reasons

[cloud thistle]

I’m scared to see what mine looks like

A bunch of red lines I assume

[vapid escarp]

https://www.shutterstock.com/image-photo/background-image-evidence-board-pictures-600nw-2370316951.jpg

[still fern]

Just ask mizu's for his, mine is probably like 20% of that

[lucid vault]

legion

[vapid escarp]

(legion reference)

[surreal forge]

mine is like 6 words, trust, high priestess, and like 3 others not coming to mind rn

I have self-flanderized too hard I fear

[lucid vault]

knowing vati it probably has your address and irl group meeting times too

[surreal forge]

😭

[still fern]

Oh I live behind squall's mirror so I know his address

[lucid vault]

omg spill?

[cloud thistle]

Yours is the same as mizu just without like my last name and picture of me and my girlfriend

Oh and my university address they have that too

[lucid vault]

my vati index card has all of livetext history on it I think

just as a bonus

[still fern]

yeah but the text is really small

so I only remember it at weird intervals

[turbid anchor]

Typhon win

[cloud thistle]

damn what a grim

[lucid vault]

Typhon adding outsiders and its consequences

[olive drift]

Yea...

Despite all the changes yea... be very careful about + Outsiders in a Typhon game

To be fair

That's every single Minion desd

What actually happened this game? It seems like it was incredibly fast

But... Good were close

[turbid anchor]

Did not ST this game btw

[olive drift]

Yee

Makes senss

I see you up there as a moochild

It is a very death heavy grim

[turbid anchor]

Day 1
I self nommed claiming fool/grandma and got put on the block, robo got 7 and was killed
Night 2
Techno killed Amanda and Annda killed Strange
Day 2
We killed Oro after I outed as Moonchild to break up Typhon worlds
Night 3
Wacky and Maya Died
Day 3
ST misunderstood the Plague Doctors ability and announced that they were the Vizier and then changed it to widow and poisoned Dave, we killed Burger at the last minute because we didn’t know who to kill
Night 4
Annda killed Techno who was claiming Gambler who ‘survived after correctly gambling Dave’ to remove Typhon suspicion.
Day 4
Indigo outed as GM confirming Dave who was suspected as Yaggababble, we got Dave on the block, then got lifted to Annda and then evil rose up and got a tie between Annda and Indigo and then Annda killed Dave in the night killing Indigo

I believe Mayor bounce was used once?

[turbid anchor]

Yeahhh

[wheat karma]

Any tips to balance typhoon? I only do max +2 outside mod

[still fern]

On this script, don't use typhon to add outsiders

Typhon is pretty insane here because BMR minions are uniquely strong to multiply

On most scripts typhon can be positive outsider mod just fine but China Shop gets pretty evilsided when you do it unless you're careful

[wheat karma]

I modify china shop to become storyteller friendly, is this ok?

[quick pier]

FG is busted here

also knight

[still fern]

This is very unbalanced -- if you want to run a simpler script run one designed to be, rather than editing existing customs

[cloud thistle]

Rare time Knight isn’t functionally useless? (It kind of is because of fang Gu but shhhh)

Actually it’s kind of just better steward because the other demons want to kill their minions

[still fern]

This is notably the function Knight serves on the actual China Shop

(also putting minions in knight pings to incentivize the demon to kill them is great)

[shy spoke]

No imo, this script really is designed around the yaggababble as well as the Lord of Typhon and replacing it makes it nearly a different (worse) script. I'd recommend running a different custom script.

[vapid escarp]

It's giving "I don't like evil twin so I'm playing SnV with fearmonger instead" 😭

[olive drift]

Oh my god

They really are making China Shop +1s

[olive drift]

But ye this has changes that will make the script less balanced. This isn't an Artist script, and Fang Gu is much less balanced here

If you want a replacement for Yaggababble, I'd recommend Ojo

If you want a replacement for Amnesiac, perhaps Fisherman

[shy spoke]

Savant -> Shugenja is probably fine?

[olive drift]

Oh

I missed Shugenja

Erm

Yea it's OK

I'm not thrilled with it

It was considered

Lord of Typhon Yagg is non negotiable though

I agree that if you want to run a more beginner friendly script, go for a different script

There are plenty out there. And even a couple of changes of character can change the balance here a lot

[olive drift]

I'm happy to talk about suggestions, but I think a more useful use of time is finding another script

And also, Lord of Typhon will lead to a couple janky games from beginner

They likely will learn how overwhelming +1 evil vote is the hard way

[wheat karma]

I play BotC irl. I like this script its just that most of the time its on a whims of storyteller in which i foresee my friends won't like. Maybe a storytelling suggestions for this game.

[olive drift]

Would you like some general suggestions about how to run the script?

I think Whims of Storyteller is a big part of BOTC, and is on scripts like Trouble Brewing and Sects and Violets too

I think with custoim scripts though... there won't be a perfect characteer

Characters with Storyteller decisions like Savant are there because I like thoe characters and they help make games balanced

I am happy to suggest replacements for characters if you can be more clear which ones are an 'issue' for you. And of course, you can do what you like with your group. Nothing is stopping you from doing that

[wheat karma]

I think roles that are heavy dependant on storyteller on their difficulty. Like amnesiac forgotten role (giving them hard or easy guess might affect the game). Also yaggabable where the difficulty of the phrase also affect the game

[olive drift]

What type of scripts do you like to run?

This script isn't easy to run but you do get a feel for it. I know that

[vapid escarp]

Wait I just now realized that you're a different dire from direhands 😭

[vapid escarp]

Sorry this is so out of pocket to say to someone I haven't interacted with all that much 😭 😭 😭

[wheat karma]

Tbh its because of LoT and Vigo +plague doctor thats why im attractive to this script

[wheat karma]

Its ok i dont even understand

[still fern]

I was wondering why you were being that blunt

[olive drift]

Ok

[vapid escarp]

Yeah that's my bad

[olive drift]

Looking at the characters I think
Yaggababble->Ojo. Run it that if the ojo misses on purpose they might get 2 kills on random people. It is good to have a Demon that can die a varied amount.

Tinker->Butler. I don't think Tinker is that bad. But if you have to change it Butler is good with Lord of Typhon.

I'm not sure about Townsfolk. I think Philosopher or Banshee is better than Artist. Artist is too strong

[wheat karma]

Does fisherman is enough to replace artist?

[olive drift]

Fisherman is a great character!

Yes you can do that

It is quite Storyteller dependent

But yes Fisherman is very good here.

[still fern]

Yaggababble->OjoAxo emerges from the shadows

[olive drift]

I will say that I think the script here is worse than the "real" China Shop

But I think you can have good games with it anyway

I do recommend trying other scripts though

[lucid vault]

hi

[vapid escarp]

hi

[still fern]

@lilac ridge how did the game earlier go? It looked like good won from chat but I wasn't sure

[lilac ridge]

My dumbass used the wrong json so it was an older version with fisherman and innkeeper. It didn't affect the game at all because the fisherman became part of the typhon line.

It was a good win, a steamroll almost

Each day a minion was executed, no good players were executed in the entire game in fact

Good did win in the end thanks to the mayor when presented with somewhat of a 50-50 in final three

[olive drift]

Epic

[still fern]

Big fan of how quickly Mayor became core here 😎

[olive drift]

It's a good character

With final 3s being more common than I gave credit, its nice

[rugged kiln]

@lilac ridge we need to play this one irl at some point

[lilac ridge]

definitely

Planning on running it this weekend actually

[rugged kiln]

Oh sweet

[olive drift]

Oooo

Good luck!

[olive drift]

Hm I can also make another scheduled game on the unofficial

[wraith flume]

maybe i'll finally be able to join a game here...

[olive drift]

yee

I'll check when's free

I curently have an event for Wednesday at 11am BST. This is a convenient time for me, but I will happily change it to other Wednesday times to suit more people

[sick gust]

Above time (11:00 BST) in your local time · Mar 31, 2025, 10:00 AM

[olive drift]

#event-listings message

[olive drift]

Shop V4.01 (This is an April Fool's Joke!)

Lord of Typhon -> Ojo
Lord of Typhon is just too swingy, and I enjoy the death mod Ojo can do which makes it pair really well with Yaggababble!

Tea Lady -> Sailor
Tea Lady is too strong, and the script needs more droison.

Gambler -> Acrobat
I just like Acrobat more, and Sailor makes it justified.

Moonchild -> Butler
Moonchild is basically a Townsfolk, and in no games did anyone ever use voting to figure out a Typhon line. This Outsider encourages people to look at vote patterns!

Shop

[shy spoke]

Lol

[still fern]

ojo china shop real

[olive drift]

It's just 'Shop'

Thank you very much

[shy spoke]

I might do the same to final nail

[still fern]

final nail in the [rolls dice] pithag

[shy spoke]

Nope, final nail in the widow

[fierce kestrel]

Ojo is peak and should've been here from very start

[olive drift]

yes

I don't know why I took it off

It won the Ojo script competition after all

[shy spoke]

Yeah, LoT is copyrighted

[vapid escarp]

shop

[elder musk]

Shop shop!

[turbid anchor]

2.4 Recorded Winrates:
Townsfolk:
Gambler 100% 2/2
Fool 100% 1/1
Pacifist 66% 2/3
Balloonist 66% 2/3
Mayor 60% 3/5
Savant 50% 2/4
Grandmother 40% 2/5
Knight 33% 1/3
Amnesiac 33% 1/3
Town Crier 33% 1/3
General 25% 1/4
Alsaahir 25% 1/4
Tea Lady 0% 0/1

Outsiders:
Tinker 50% 1/2
Puzzlemaster 0% 0/1
Moonchild 0% 0/1
Plague Doctor 0% 0/1

Minions:
Godfather 2/2 100%
Assassin 1/1 100%
Devils Advocate 2/4 50%
Widow 1/3 33%
Witch 1/4 25%

Demons:
Yaggababble 2/2 100%
Vigormortis 1/2 50%
Lord of Typhon 1/3 33%

I got bored and made this

[wraith flume]

sample size too small yet to say anything about winrate but this is interesting to see which roles tend to get put in the bag more than others

mayor and grandmother 5 times, tea lady and fool once

[olive drift]

China Shop

There are some things to note here

For example, Tea Lady disproportionately gets eaten by a Lord of Typhon in a Typhon line

Because having a Tea Lady next to a Typhon line sounds like a recipe for disaster

Fool has only been on the script for a short time

oh its 2.4

Still really useful

It is a tiny sample size rn but ye. I feel the winrates are slowly balancin out

Like only looking at 2.4 gives a 57% evil winrate. Variance on that still is v high rn high, but that's quite decent

Mayor does seem legitimately strong on here in a way that it... isn't on Trouble Brewing

[wraith flume]

yeah the lack of arbitrary poison helps mayor a lot

well i guess widow still exists

anyways yeah mayor is v cool on this script

[olive drift]

ye evil does have ways to counterplay it

Assassin, Widow and Yagg can all give a way out

[wraith flume]

i always like assassin and mayor on the same script not just for evil counterplay but also for thematic reasons

like the mayor being afraid of revealing themselves for fear of being assassinated is very thematic lol

[olive drift]

Stuff like that is actually why I didn't have mayor on for a while

I thought it would make it too weak

In practice... Mayor combos really nicely

The main character I'm a bit worried about is Alsaahir for "some setups feel like it's guessing blindly in the dark" reasons

Most characters except like, Fool give it something to do though.

And even Fool and Mayor Alsaahir can go down the "Let's prove the main worlds where they are evil don't work" route

[olive drift]

You're right though it is

I never thought of that

[turbid anchor]

I GOT BORED AGAIN!
All Time China Shop Win-Rate, Based of Grim Pics on this Thread:
Townsfolk:
Fool 100% (1/1)
Savant 75% (9/12)
Pacifist 58% (7/12)
Grandmother 58% (7/12)
Amnesiac 55% (6/11)
Tea Lady 50% (4/8)
Balloonist 50% (6/12)
Mayor 45% (5/11)
Knight 44% (7/16)
Gambler 42% (5/12)
General 29% (4/14)
Town Crier 27% (3/11)
Alsaahir 14% (1/7)

Outsiders:
Puzzlemaster 50% (4/8)
Plague Doctor 44% (4/9)
Tinker 40% (2/5)
Moonchild 33% (1/3)

Minions:
Assassin 56% (5/9)
Widow 56% (5/9)
Godfather 56% (5/9)
Witch 50% (8/16)
Devils Advocate 46% (6/13)

Demons:
Yaggababble 66% (4/6)
Lord of Typhon 56% (5/9)
Vigormortis 33% (3/9)

If any of the results seem weird that’s because some logged games have not had grim pictures posted here 😊

[rain parcel]

Fool op plz nerf

[turbid anchor]

Real

That 1 fool game was too overpowered

I played in that game I think

The minions are scarily balanced…

[wraith flume]

DA having the lowest winrate of all the minions is really really funny

[turbid anchor]

I think from these results I can comfortably say that pacifist shouldn’t be an outsider

[vapid escarp]

Ur so productive when ur bored, when I'm bored I stare at my script for 2 hours straight and change nothing and leave unsatisfied

[turbid anchor]

No that’s me most days

I’m sitting in my room in the darkness with tonsillitis trying not to go insane

[vapid escarp]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/287024528633233409/1153478315802374164/IMG_3158.png?ex=67edcd65&is=67ec7be5&hm=c7965f595058532c50135d7673e06eb403ca84add8355605fc6098a411a6f86e&

[turbid anchor]

Does anyone know if they allow World Cup script on this server

[vapid escarp]

Like in livevoice?

Yeah they do

[turbid anchor]

Thanks

I thought I was on custom scripts I didn’t mean to ask that here 😭

[vapid escarp]

Idk how that's relevant to here but if you wanna run china shop with one of the djinnleggers 😭

Totally unrelated you should run BSN and tell me how it goes

[turbid anchor]

New game, which World Cup rule would be best on China Shop?

[vapid escarp]

Show me wonders :3

[sand mulch]

BSN

totally

[turbid anchor]

The thing is I was going to today but I fell asleep and my turn got skipped

[vapid escarp]

Nooo

Happens

[quick pier]

Very funny game.

Highlights:

• Someone randomly called the exact minion and demon types on d2 in a throwaway joke
• Amne ability where you learned how many evils voted on you the last day. Never got nominated once in the entire game and made it to f4 without receiving a single bit of info
• Alsaahir guessed the demon as the demon almost every day and was once 1 minion away
• Both knight pings made it to f3
• Demon was DA protected in F3, so mayor win was the only way town wins
• f3: 1 vote on the demon, then 2 on the PD, mayor tried to nom to tie a mayor win but evil rose up with 3

[olive drift]

Epic

[lucid vault]

Most trusted Knight

[olive drift]

Gathering players

[olive drift]

BTW how did the script feel?

Was it fair?

[olive drift]

Like did this game feel like both teams had a chance?

ye it's wild that DA games are the lowest winrate games

But I think that's because you compensate by putting a mayor in play

[still fern]

Yeah this is very much a mayor change

The 2.1 play pattern was "typhon DA-autowinning every game"

[olive drift]

ye. Also I'm loving that it's winning livevoice polls!

So I get free data

I'm gonna keep an eye out on Alsaahir because I think Fisherman might replace it if Alsaahir doesn't pack enough punch.

I like the character, but I liked Banshee too

Liking something doesn't mean it's good

[quick pier]

yes it was extremely close the entire game

[olive drift]

Yayyyyy!!

[olive drift]

Trying to run this again.

need to get 1 more player

[olive drift]

Typhon win

Alsaahir winrates get even lower :(

[still fern]

The moral of the past two games is that knights aren't real

[olive drift]

clearer grim

[lucid vault]

widowpoisoned knight is insane

[vapid escarp]

Nah it's very reasonable imo

[olive drift]

yee

[lucid vault]

what was the amne?

[vapid escarp]

Because it's anti meta

[olive drift]

Each night, choose 2 players: The 1st Minion you choose that nominates dies.

Which lead to Dora pushing on the DA to nominate, the DA dying, and then her being super framed as the Witch

[turbid anchor]

All Time China Shop Win-Rate, Based of Grim Pics on this Thread:
Townsfolk:
Savant 75% (9/12)
Pacifist 58% (7/12)
Grandmother 54% (7/13)
Fool 50% (1/2)
Amnesiac 46% (6/13)
Tea Lady 44% (4/9)
Balloonist 43% (6/14)
Mayor 42% (5/12)
Gambler 42% (5/12)
Knight 39% (7/18)
General 29% (4/14)
Town Crier 23% (3/13)
Alsaahir 11% (1/9)

Outsiders:
Puzzlemaster 44% (4/9)
Plague Doctor 40% (4/10)
Tinker 40% (2/5)
Moonchild 33% (1/3)

Minions:
Assassin 64% (7/11)
Widow 60% (6/10)
Godfather 56% (5/9)
Devils Advocate 53% (8/15)
Witch 50% (8/16)

Demons:
Yaggababble 66% (4/6)
Lord of Typhon 60% (6/10)
Vigormortis 40% (4/10)

If any of the results seem weird that’s because some logged games have not had grim pictures posted here 😊

2.4 Recorded Winrates:
Townsfolk:
Fool 70% 7/10
Alsaahir 67% 12/18
Balloonist 67% 12/18
Pacifist 67% 10/15
Amnesiac 64% 9/14
Gambler 62% 8/13
Tea Lady 55% 6/11
Mayor 54% 7/13
General 53% 9/17
Knight 47% 8/17
Savant 47% 7/15
Town Crier 41% 7/17
Grandmother 40% 6/15

Outsiders:
Moonchild 71% 5/7
Tinker 60% 3/5
Plague Doctor 55% 6/11
Puzzlemaster 33% 3/9

Minions:
Godfather 60% 6/10
Widow 56% 9/16
Assassin 50% 5/10
Devils Advocate 41% 9/22
Witch 20% 2/10

Demons:
Lord of Typhon 45% 5/11
Vigormortis 45% 5/11
Yaggababble 44% 4/9

[olive drift]

hm

Alsaahir is getting worryingly low. I'll keep an eye out

Potential ideas for replacements include:
Chambermaid
Alchemist
Fisherman
Shugenja

I'm figuring out if Alchemist is too crazy

it does add a jinx 😔

2.4 is the best this script has ever been

[still fern]

Alchemist is too crazy and jinxes have nothing to do with it

Just do Fisherman

[olive drift]

I will say the characters in the typhon game were definitely on the weaker side

Fisherman is OK

[still fern]

Alsaahir is always going to be a weird one

Everyone hates it on cc except when it wins. It's basically the godfather of the townsfolk there

[olive drift]

pff

[still fern]

Actually banshee is but alsaahir comes close

[olive drift]

ye

In that game though

So much was droisoned

Mayhaps transforming a Grandmother into a Widow was too harsh

The Alsaahir did get rid of a plausible LoT word then died

[olive drift]

The reasoning behind Alchemist is that it works well w almost all minions except Widow

[vapid escarp]

Is that it

[olive drift]

Alsaahir has been underpeforning. You can use the redirect to give info

This entire scripts gimmick is making it look like there are a bunch more Minion abilities in play to sell typhon

It fits well within that gimmick

[still fern]

Witch and assassin are fine but probably kind of oppressive in Typhon, Godfather is incredibly based and custscripts is wrong if it tells you otherwise but this is so horribly not the script for it

[olive drift]

I think I'll give the current script time to breath

[still fern]

And DA is an outsider with new alch

[olive drift]

I disagree with that take

It turns into a cop if it's left alive for long enough

Because you will be directing their choices away from high priority Minions and Demons in the later game

[vapid escarp]

You can just never execute an alch da pick

Because it breaks science laws

[olive drift]

It proves they have the ability but that's about it ye

[vapid escarp]

No it doesn't 😭 they can coordinate with the demon pretty easily

[olive drift]

Sure

Amnesiac does fit that niche better to be fair

If good carry on underpeforming then ye I'll consider fisherman. Maybe math but prolly not. CM kinda cuts this script open

Fish is nice here. I love alsaahir in theory but I have been down the loving stuff in theory path before

[lucid vault]

I've been down the theory path and you know where it ended up? Godfather on CC 💰💰😼😼😼🔥🔥🔥🔥

[turbid anchor]

I think you need time to give the script time and then figure out changes

Also strong characters like Exorcist or Chambermaid, yes they are strong... but they should be strong, evil is winning more than good and that should help fix it.

[lucid vault]

Exorcist with an immobile Demon seems way, way too far in the other direction

it just BTFOs every demon

I think Alsaa is fun here but Fisherman seems okay here as a sub

[olive drift]

I think alsaahir is fun

Fisherman is fine

Ultimately what matters is what players find fun. And close games are fun

The games do feel close

[still fern]

You like it more than I do

[lucid vault]

well yeah because I'm better than you 😼😼😼😼

[still fern]

[lucid vault]

yeah no you're right

[olive drift]

Good talk

How many games are a fair representation of the script?

[turbid anchor]

We have 9 recorded games of 2.4

Aim for 6 more and then look at the winrates and make changes I say

[olive drift]

I think even 6 is not that big

[turbid anchor]

Are Slayer/Flowergirl ruled out?

[turbid anchor]

Maybe yeah

[olive drift]

Slayer shoots through DA

Flowergirl works best with moving demons

[turbid anchor]

That’s not too bad?

[still fern]

Flowergirl is horrifying here and I know people say my Slayer take is wrong but I'm still going to make it

[olive drift]

Its not too bad

[still fern]

I think the script being a little evil sided is just inbuilt to the premise and it's working out to the best balance point it can realistically have

The CS demons are also insanely swingy so it's all too possible to overcompensate

Anyway fisherman is always good

[turbid anchor]

I actually think adding a Slayer or a Chambermaid would massively benefit the script if it still feels evil sided after a while

2.4 Evil 66% Good 33%

[wraith flume]

it hasn’t really been long enough to say anything about how evilsided it is

[olive drift]

Ye

Also some of it is just learning to ST the script better

For example, Fool Alsaahir with a Puzzledrunk Town Crier isn't exactly strong

I could have considered, for example, to turn that grandmother into a Godfather

Instead of a Widow

[still fern]

Yeah like, the thing about CS is it gets games where evil more or less unavoidably autowins from d1 and also it gets games where good more or less does. It's the experiment in if you can make a Typhon bmrlike. The concept is balanced on a knife's edge and when you start putting in flowergirls and stuff...I mean look at these demons lol

[olive drift]

Then good would have more of a chance. And even in that game where typhon won

It was a 50/50

A 50/50 where you won out as the Demon

The balloonist, if trusted, pointed at you

Notably the games I've run has had players be satisfied with the games, and games feeling close!

[turbid anchor]

Yeah Autumn listen to the AI, replace Assassin with the Demagogue

Best possible change

[olive drift]

Excellent

[lucid vault]

new custom script discussion meme born

[vapid escarp]

Beguiler is so powerful tho??? Almost a strict upgrade from assassin. The AI clearly doesn't know what it's talking about.

[olive drift]

I am tempted with Demagogue

It is slightly loud which does make it a good fit

[turbid anchor]

Evil livetext win

[olive drift]

wowie

how did the game feel

[turbid anchor]

Bad

It was my first livetext game

There was 2 subs

This isn’t China Shops fault

[olive drift]

i see...

how did evil win

[lucid vault]

vigor flowchart:
kill your minions? --> win
don't kill your minions? --> lose

[olive drift]

pff

[lucid vault]

vigor killed the gf n2 that sniped the Savant, then claimed Gambler misgambling the Mayor

the Savant (me) had "empath 0 / yaggababble in play" so tunneled on said mayor being the yag

[olive drift]

was req exed

[lucid vault]

yeah d1

[olive drift]

dam

ye that's powerful socially

[turbid anchor]

I’ll blame Vati for getting me into livetext

There have been 4 changes from 1.1 to 2.4

[olive drift]

pff

but those changes have been essential

just shows how great the script always has been 😉

[lilac ridge]

China shop good win irl
Evil was doing very well until they accidentally tied on two demon candidates forcing town to execute the demon who was sat next to the DA bluffing tea lady

giving the widows call to the fool was a bad idea in retrospect

[quick pier]

holy cow Typhon loss

[olive drift]

typhon lowest wr demon 😔

[turbid anchor]

And Alsaahir + Fool

@olive drift do you mind pinning the winrates along side the current update so it’s easier to access?

[rugged kiln]

I was said DA

If the demon had killed me at night we would have walked this game....

[olive drift]

i can't pin

[rich oracle]

where's the win rates

i can pin

[turbid anchor]

Thanks @rich oracle

[sick gust]

Gave +1 Thanks to @rich oracle (current: #396 - 113)

[olive drift]

Also I can report another player has run this and has run into a vigor, yagg and typhon loss

In short
7/10 - 70% evil WR
Has rapidly dropped to
7/14 - 50% evil WR

I will admit though this script is hard to play and a few evil losses seem to be from a lack of coordination...

But a win is a win and a loss is a loss!

[turbid anchor]

Do they have the grim pictures?

[shy spoke]

It was also played in livetext fwiw

Vigor win

V2.4

Oh Sharkly already posted it

Nvm

[olive drift]

I've asked

[elder musk]

I don't. It was a physical grim.

I wanted to take pictures but I totally forgot in the chaos. Had 12 11 and 10 player games

I'll try and rebuild it from memory but I don't know if I'll be able for all 3 games

[olive drift]

Thats fine

[elder musk]

This was game 1, bad coordination from evil made it very hard for the demon sitting next to the tea lady.

[shy spoke]

Typical TL placement lol

[elder musk]

Yeah, they got gambled first occasion, it wasnt great. Was still close-ish, got to 5 alive

They kept putting the demon on the block when he was DA protected and then saving him. (tied once and went up to 7 votes on someone else once..)

[shy spoke]

I consider that a success considering that Tea Lady

[elder musk]

Game 2. not close at all. Alsahir was one away on first guess and they killed the demon day 2 after unfortunate kills by assassin and demon. (They killed plague doctor and town crier, making a 4 line and a 5 line which went head to head. General info clinched it)

These 3 games convinced my group general is not awful

Game 3, yaggababble phrase was: "This is obviously a yagababble game" widow poisoned tea lady. closest game of the bunch. Final 3 was Alsahir, yagga, Fool. Good got it on a deduction that was completely wrong that the fool had prevented a kill night 1. (yagga didnt say the phrase that day)

Everyont had a great time 🙂 Thanks autumn, weregonna stick with this set with my group for a bit. I have been storytelling for about 4 years playing every 2-3 weeks and the general comments were that this had the good parts of BMR, tnhey loved it 🙂

[shy spoke]

LoT game 🔥

[elder musk]

And yagga was indeed a budget Typhon in that game, those 3 were sitting in the same couch too 😛

LoT?

[shy spoke]

Lord of Typhon

[olive drift]

We need an update. I'd happily take over but you got the pin

[lucid vault]

I can fix the pin

If you want to take over

[turbid anchor]

I’ll update it, just got back

Updated

[olive drift]

Alsaahir be winning 🗣️ 🗣️ 🗣️

[elder musk]

Alsahue was real close to being correct in all my games

Alsahir

[lilac ridge]

Good win, vigormortis executed day 1 at random

[quick pier]

lol

[olive drift]

Wow a positive good WR

I haven't seen that in a while!

[lilac ridge]

Livevoice China shop

Good win, alsaahir guess to win in final three, absolutely insane

balloonist was widow poisoned

[olive drift]

OMG

That is kinda insane

How did the game feel. that sounds awesome ngl

[lilac ridge]

Game felt awesome, the pacifist and knight really pulled their weights in this one

and the alsaahir too obviously lol

I think this is my favorite iteration of the script

great work!

[olive drift]

Typhon Winrate feels a tad bit low now but I am confident it'll balance out

We only had 7 games of it so far

[lilac ridge]

Yup, it should balance out with a larger sample size I think

[olive drift]

yea

We had worse

Alsaahir had a 14% wr at one point

1/7

And now it's... well both an incredibly popular character and its been pulled out of there

[lilac ridge]

thats awesome

I think alsaahir is terrifying on this script

especially in the late game when typhon lines are most apparent

[olive drift]

yee

it really does help quell any typhon fears

[lilac raven]

@sand mulch ME
It was an alsaahir win d2, yagga phrase was “I don’t like this”
Minion was kind of outed evil after a weird tie day one. It was a great script though (Assassin stabbed gambler)

[sand mulch]

its definitely coming back 😉

[olive drift]

This script being good sided deffo is a twist I didn't expect

Idt it is really

But good are now on a cool winstreak

[lilac raven]

I don’t think it felt good sided

I think alsaahir is just a cool role sometimes

[olive drift]

Yee it feels like a fantastic fit here

[olive drift]

@turbid anchor have you updated the wrs?

[turbid anchor]

Yep

[olive drift]

YAY

[shy spoke]

Day 1?

[olive drift]

No

D2

[shy spoke]

Oh

[olive drift]

Final grim I'll show

[turbid anchor]

Winrates time 😁

[olive drift]

Good team just had a lot of information and vibes to go for Mack

yAH

Yeah

Everyone read good

Mack didn't

Unfortunate. I'm sure with the killpower they could have framed Yagg or Typhon p nicely

But yeah this is probably a very stacked town really

like throwing in an Alsaahir or Mayor is nice

But this was a game where evil just read a bit worse and died for it. They didn't have any super strong pointers, except for a paci save from across the map