China Shop

[olive drift]

vigor is both less played than the other demons

[rich oracle]

i guess it is the LoT script

[olive drift]

and has a lower winrate

Yeah... I guess it has turned into that

Lord of Typhon is absurd here

Yaggababble also does well

I feel like off vibes you can tell which is which

Are people dropping like flies? Look for that babble phrase.

The other two blend in a bit better with each other, but LoT set ups can definitely mimic yagga. Vigor has a harder time

All of these demons really love scapegoating each other

The Yagga phrase was 'The typhon line' after all

The Typhon also dabbles in making dead players look like potential Vigor-Minion kills

And the Vigor I assume will try and do a bit of both

honestly though LoT Yagga works even better than I thought because it gives such a natural phrase

and because of the paranoia of Lord of Typhon, people need to talk more to work together

[quick pier]

and then Vigor

Vigor synergies really well with like 2 of these minions and then the others are incredibly meh

[still fern]

is there to be cool and based and also because I had too much design input on this script 😎

[olive drift]

I mean, idk

[quick pier]

and as Vigor definitely on the weaker side of demons in general it could explain the winrate

[olive drift]

Witch and DA are the two GREAT synergies

[quick pier]

yes

well

DA is amazing

Witch is good

[olive drift]

Godfather and Widow are two pretty good synergies

[vapid escarp]

Assassin is solid, gf+1 is solid

[olive drift]

Assassin is more meh but still p good

[quick pier]

i mean widow guarantees perma poison and sure if it’s a GF +1

[vapid escarp]

gf-1 and widow are meh imo

[rich oracle]

assassin is a good vigor kill

[still fern]

I love that everyone agrees DA is the best and no one can ever apparently agree what the second best is

[vapid escarp]

Assassin can just hold it forever

[still fern]

(it's Godfather)

[olive drift]

but ye

[quick pier]

and then the demon dies d3

[vapid escarp]

I feel like we all agree on witch? #3 is the question

[vapid escarp]

Oh

[olive drift]

Ye

[wraith flume]

i think assassin is the second best tbh

[rich oracle]

#2 is assassin, imo

[olive drift]

LOL

[vapid escarp]

Gf-1 isn't a very good vigorkill

[olive drift]

OK

What a way to prove

[still fern]

you're gonna have to fight for second worst

[vapid escarp]

Gf+1, fair enough

[olive drift]

That these minions are all at least decent vigor kills

[still fern]

actually most of them are support minions according to my taxonomy [23 unsolicited paragraphs follow]

[olive drift]

pff

[vapid escarp]

The outsiders are also all really good vigorkill bluffs and also puzzlemaster is okay

[wraith flume]

we all agree widow is the worst

[still fern]

SUPPORT MINION

[wraith flume]

but its still technically beneficial

[olive drift]

I think Assassin is prolly a bit worse than widow

Like a hidden widow poisoning 2 players

Who is totally the grandmother who was a god at bluffing

[vapid escarp]

If you vigorkill an assassin and a DA you can negate 2 executions

Well 1.5 but still

[still fern]

You're gonna have better takes about vigor outsider bluffspace when you lose against me as the "knight and grandmother confirmed puzzlemaster"

[vapid escarp]

PM is a good bluff

But vigor doesn't really interact with it

[olive drift]

yee

Moonchild is peak Vigor bluff

[vapid escarp]

Moonchild and PD are peak, tinker is really funny and also effective

[olive drift]

Tinker is also not that good as unless you have orchestrated several deaths at once

[wraith flume]

PM is a good outsider bluff in general and even if it doesnt particularly synergize with vigorkills, vigor wants good outsider bluffs
it can also somewhat hide vigor poison

[olive drift]

It can get a bit eh

[still fern]

Anyway vigor is cool on this script. It just has to deal with its usual problem on every single script ever where it's in the bag like 5% of the time and the person rolling it for like the first or second time procrastinates on killing minions forever "because I don't want to lose their votes" and gets executed on 7

[olive drift]

ye Vigor is such a cool demon

And it works really nicely with these minions

And demons

[still fern]

(it's always exactly 7. somehow this doesn't scale by player count)

[wraith flume]

what about in 7p games

[still fern]

yes

[olive drift]

Of course, that's theoretical

Only Yagga and Lord of Typhon exist on this script

[still fern]

so true

[wraith flume]

only LoT

[olive drift]

It is only lord of typhon

[still fern]

finally, solo typhon

[wraith flume]

this is a solo LoT script with offscript yagga and vigor sometimes

[olive drift]

the yagga is definitely on script

[still fern]

It's on the back of the script

[olive drift]

What else would the typhon line talk about

To drive paranoia

Conversation on this script for the first couple of days devolves into

EEEEK TYPHON LINE

LOOK MOST PLAYERS WHO ARE ALIVE ARE IN A LINE

(only 1 player is dead)

[wraith flume]

vigor is on the script but someone spilt coffee on that part of the script and nobody can tell what demon it was supposed to be anymore

[olive drift]

And

is tHaT thE yAGgA pHraSE

so it is kinda the perfect vigor script

[lucid vault]

you're kidding; the last time I ran this script it was yag with "the typhon line is" as a phrase

i'm a hack 😭

anyway drop vig for ojo this will do wonders for people trusting nightdeaths

[olive drift]

ojo is like the town crier of the script

it fits so well

but it wasn't on most versions

and giving a reason to distrust night deaths is really important in BOTC

but ye

The yagga has the phrase 'the typhon line is'

And just wins

Do you know what else is crazy

We executed the Plague Doctor

In f3

Because we thought she was the yaggababble with the phrase 'typhon tunnel'

it works so well because the more the yaggababble talks about the typhon line the more the "evidence" of the extra minions appear

[lucid vault]

so lil' monsta over vig

😁

[olive drift]

axolator

more like

vigorhater

[lucid vault]

thank you for the sotrue vati

also i DO like the vigormortis

who do you think fought for it on cannons

[olive drift]

i don't know the history of cannons

[lucid vault]

it wasn't stinky hannah (🥩)

[olive drift]

the issue with vigor is that it already has a home script 😔

its cool trust me!

[vapid escarp]

Nah it has like 6 and it's completely different on all of them

[olive drift]

yee

except for its winrate

but there is a struggle vigor has which is that it won't ever outkill a yagga or a lord of typhon, and if you make its minions capable of doing that (like assassin+witch), then you miss out on its best synergy (vigor DA)

[still fern]

3 minion game 🔥

[lucid vault]

this just in: autumn doesn't know that botc goes up to 15

[still fern]

also, something something perditious plague doctor

[lucid vault]

too bad the vig removed it

[olive drift]

ye in 3 minion games I think this script does fantastic

but most games are 1 or 2 minions

[still fern]

why do you think there's a balloonist

[lucid vault]

SO TRUE

[olive drift]

also yea the plague doctor

and also the casual amnesiac ability which is just "you have the alchemist assassin ability but its twice per game enjoy"

that is an intended thing and might be really fun

i could talk for a while about this script eeeee

but ye i do want to run more minion focused amnesiac abilities so that they can open up some fun amnesiac minion bluffs

[still fern]

snv, midnight oasis, lunar eclipse, ???, ???, ???

[lucid vault]

trust :)

[still fern]

no

[olive drift]

whats trust. is that the milk script

[still fern]

yes

[lucid vault]

actually yeah this isn't a vigor homescript

it's an evolution of lunar eclipse

[rain parcel]

That’s a custom with vigor

[lucid vault]

wait THIS IS CHINA SHOP

NOT CUSTOM SCRIPT DISCUSSION

😭

[olive drift]

yeah

[still fern]

lunar eclipse (tb mode)

[olive drift]

i love how china shop turns into #custom-script-discussion

[rain parcel]

Also why is there only a Cerenovus for good vigorkills

[olive drift]

basically the same players hang out here

[rain parcel]

Why

[still fern]

can't wait for the #vigormortis channel

[lucid vault]

vigor poison is actually real on this script

[olive drift]

it also turns into #1279642563829174426 from time to time

we basically are next door neighbours

occasional #1271450696587149476

[still fern]

you actually are for me

[olive drift]

fun

[still fern]

(out of active enough threads to be on the current display)

[olive drift]

this would be a great showcase script for vigor

if it was actually played

also do 3 Demon 5 Minions provide more possible combinations than 4 demons 4 minions?

Let's say in a 2 minion game

[cloud thistle]

Quickly gonna upload Clockwork Cyberbullying to break this up

[olive drift]

in a 1 minion its 4 * 4 = 16 v 3 * 5 = 15. Lord of Typhon does actually greatly increase the number of combinations but we can ignore that for now

2 minions 4 * 4 * 3 / 2 = 24. 3 * 5 * 4 /2 = 30

it seems that ye... games are just more varied because of how this script is built

[still fern]

it's ordered based on when I joined a thread

[cloud thistle]

Let me travel back in time to make clockwork cyberbullying

[olive drift]

you can tell vati has helped me with this script

evil has a 60% + winrate

[still fern]

hey it's only 57% on cc

it's as balanced as pies baking!

[olive drift]

is pies baking really that evil sided

[still fern]

goodsided but same percentage

[olive drift]

oh i seeee

well

i am honestly praying that this is just random variance

it really could be!

i think it can be solved by playing several vigor games in a row

[surreal forge]

Sects And Violets is Neutral Evil

[olive drift]

ye SnV is a multideath neutral (really technically), and exe survival rebel

[lucid vault]

surely you mean chaotic evil

[vapid escarp]

No read the chart

[lucid vault]

wait, no, chaotic neutral

because pithag is extra deaths

[surreal forge]

exactly

[olive drift]

pit hag causes multi death

[lucid vault]

either way it's not NE

[olive drift]

ET doesn't count for the chart

It doesn't cause extra deaths

[lucid vault]

it doesn't prevent deaths either

[olive drift]

I mean

If you talk about preventing deaths then Trouble Brewing shouldn't be Rebel Rebel anyway

[lucid vault]

having only death prevention is multideath rebel

but you can't be a purist without at least 1 source of it

[olive drift]

ye

i agree that this script is technically hardline traditionalist which is a bit mad

[lucid vault]

maybe that's just a shortcoming of my chart

[olive drift]

the chart is a meme but a semi serious one

all BMR-likes deserve to be unique

I will argue that a pretty big part of BMR is not only the multideath but protection

its the variation of deaths that matter

[rain parcel]

remember the app winrate being balanced tho

[olive drift]

can yoou check winrates of scripts on the app?

[still fern]

no

[rain parcel]

no it's based on vibes lmao

[still fern]

this is across all versions of the script in all media

[rain parcel]

why would I of all people have concrete facts

[olive drift]

tell me facts about concrete

😏

[rain parcel]

Again, lost em

[vapid escarp]

!json

[sinful crescent]

CHINA SHOP V2.1 by Autumn

[{"id":"_meta","author":"Autumn","name":"CHINA SHOP V2.1"},"knight","grandmother","balloonist","general","town_crier","innkeeper","gambler","savant","philosopher","amnesiac","banshee","tea_lady","pacifist","tinker","plague_doctor","moonchild","puzzlemaster","godfather","devils_advocate","witch","assassin","widow","yaggababble","vigormortis","lord_of_typhon"]

[turbid anchor]

what.

anyway running this/B3 in pickup in 2 hours or so

[still fern]

Observation: I don't think it's that Typhon is oppressively strong here, exactly

I think it's that DA is stronger than, approximately, every other minion on this script combined

Specifically, "DA-protected demon in f3" seems to make up the absolute majority of evil wins

Town tends to have a pretty good idea of the world/consider the demon as a demon candidate, they just go for other candidates first and lose to the DA

(This thought process inspired by watching yet another app game where exactly this happened, and also by this describing more than half the app games of this script I've watched)

And typhon obviously is more likely to have a DA so it benefits disproportionately

The solution to this seems to be "making it possible for good to win DA endgames"

[turbid anchor]

I seem to agree with this but how do you actually do that is the question...

[still fern]

Kind of thinking about Mayor, for all it assumes an f3

Because the kill rate on this script rarely actually skips f3 from what I've seen in the app sample

I don't think it ever has there, actually

[turbid anchor]

actually yeah mayor kinda solves that issue outright

i completely forgot about mayor

[still fern]

Alsaahir was here for this at one point but it never worked in practice

[turbid anchor]

alsaahir in typhon is quite op

[cloud thistle]

It’s kinda worse with Typhon/Legion etc because you have to effectively get the Demon type right too

Especially in larger games with more possible evil teams

[still fern]

Turning over Banshee -> Mayor in my head and I think I like it

Both teams can do something to confirm or deny a mayor

[surreal forge]

disagree, Alsaahir is Typhon-ED, Slayer

[still fern]

Related: I don't think kill pace is a problem for the current version

The gambler is somehow always widow poisoned or puzzledrunk or perma-innkept so there's that

Vigor's problem here isn't that it doesn't kill enough it's that it doesn't kill its minions enough lol

Rather, DA is so crazy strong because the kill pace is actually pretty slow -- people don't apply bmrlike intuitions, they assume they have more executions than they do/are happy to sleep on 4/etc

[lucid vault]

so it's the Word Around Town situation

in the sense that Mayor works despite the multikilling because the overall game pace doesn't tend to skip f3

(if it does, it's because town has executed an outsider claim on 5 or an Assassin has held it)

[still fern]

Basically yes

[lucid vault]

though... Vigor-Assassin always being able to beat a Mayor is something that's kinda ehh

since you're adding a Mayor to beat VIgor-DA

[still fern]

The usual pattern I see for typhon here is something like "selfkilling witch, assassin spending n2, DA autowins in f3"

I am significantly more concerned about typhon/DA than vigor/DA because typhon's ability here resolves to "[+the Devil's Advocate]"

[lucid vault]

it also occured to me that vigor/da/assassin + mayor exists on lunar eclipse and it's not really a complaint there since the assassin has reasons to spend early there and not skip f3 with its ability

so it's probably not an issue here since IK/TL/banshee all exist for the assassin to want to spend on

[still fern]

I lean for mayor replacing banshee because the pattern I see is of banshee being a very blank token

Because a widow is never killing a banshee on purpose when it breaks too many typhon worlds

Whereas widow's counterplay to mayor is exactly poisoning them or someone who would confirm them, because you can't just get the demon to kill them

And yeah the assassin (or godfather) always wants to go for other targets so the banshee just never dies of anything

[edgy stag]

my only addition to this is china shop is fun to run lmao

[olive drift]

mm

The Lord of Typhon game I lost was due to the banshee

They were near to impossible to kill. That was partially my fault

[still fern]

Notably that banshee also didn't die 😛

[olive drift]

yeah but if they did good would have won

[still fern]

I recently saw a game with a doubletapped (paci) banshee who 1. did not proc and 2. lost to DA

[olive drift]

hm

whats the recent game

[still fern]

The most recent was one just earlier Brxada (who runs some botcu scripts on the app) was running

Which was the DA scenario again

[olive drift]

another typhon win

from DA?

ye DA Typhon is silly

[still fern]

I think most of the 'typhon wins' are DA wins

Which is why I'm really falling in love with the Mayor idea

[lucid vault]

oh if the banshee had been a mayor

[olive drift]

well having a whole extra evil player does help

ye

[lucid vault]

they would've gotten framed in f3 or widowed

:p

[still fern]

It seems to help much much less than 'one of them being a DA'

But it helps a lot with not getting the DA executed

[lucid vault]

📝 help good win by not giving the typhon line a da

[still fern]

Unironically, yes

[olive drift]

pff

breaking news. DA strong

[still fern]

But yeah when more games than not are DA endgames that suggests "some way of making a DA endgame winnable" is a good idea

[olive drift]

Script makers flabbergasted

yea

I do like banshee. Mayor is ok. I guess both do equally as much. Banshee does clear worlds much more if it procs

[still fern]

It does but like, it doesn't proc

[olive drift]

It do be like that with bait characters

[still fern]

The typhon probably has a widow and you don't kill banshees on purpose if it's that high a risk

[olive drift]

hm

my thoughts with mayor is that its a nothing character 😭

This is slightly less droison heavy than TB

So ye... it could work. Mayor is decent with multideath, except in the late game

[still fern]

In practice again yeah this script doesn't seem to skip f3

At least in typhon games which are the area of concern

[olive drift]

ye

[still fern]

Assassins tend to spend early and then die for trust plays

Godfathers aren't real

[olive drift]

yaggababbles can bypass

philo mayors is the mayor's more trusted sibling

for some reason

[still fern]

Philo mayor is another thing I find interesting about mayor here yeah

It's a competitive option with the other strong philo choices

[lucid vault]

it's like philo pacifist in that you don't lose anything

[olive drift]

I still like there to be some bait characters, and I do think Banshee is really interesting here

[still fern]

Another reason why I'm thinking banshee -> mayor is that mayor is a bait role

[olive drift]

it is

[still fern]

It fills both the "bait role that works with these weird-ass demons" slot and the "helps counter that literally most games of this script are DA endgames" slot

[olive drift]

like it is technically a bait role. But mayor bait works much better in Trouble Brewing where you have 4 you start knowings and a ravenkeeper

Like if I could have both mayor and banshee

then ye

but that would go back to good having no info

[still fern]

You've got knight, grandmother, philo into one of those (they're both good n2 philo choices), ysk amne, just for very uncontroversial mild options

for mayor bounces

[lucid vault]

innkeeper :)

[still fern]

minions, 2 of the demons can handle it

[lucid vault]

the non-vigor ones?

wait im dumb

yeah nvm the non-typhon ones but why are you yagg bouncing a mayor

[still fern]

typhon can deal with spent minions being dead

I mean don't mayor bounce that but

[olive drift]

That's kinda my issue like ye

[lucid vault]

i mean typhons used to actually kill minions when it first released because spooky line

[olive drift]

I don't think players will take kindly for mayor bouncing into minions

ye

[still fern]

typhons actually do kill minions on this script like all the time

and the witch selfkills like 95% of the time

(not the f4 selfkill trick, but like, early)

[lucid vault]

at least selfkill on d2 wtf

give yourself time to claim philograndma confirming your demon

[still fern]

but anyway mayor good
or some other way to make typhon/DA not typhon/DA but alsaahir didn't do that so there's always mayor

[wraith flume]

I like the idea of mayor

I like the idea of banshee as well but i feel like mayor and banshee occupy a similar niche (as mentioned earlier) but their differences are that mayor is exactly what is needed to mitigate the disproportionate strength of DA, while banshee happens to do some cool things on a LoT script (only if it actually dies though)

i do feel mayor might be more suitable

but thats just my opinion

[olive drift]

yee

mayor is

it feels insane

like i didn't want it on bc idk if it does enough against anything

[still fern]

I don't expect it to be a panacea but I expect it to be a lot less of a nothing role than banshee

Which, right now, is entirely a nothing role, because the tradeoff is never worth it in typhon where killing a banshee you know about does lose

[wraith flume]

even in games where town doesnt go for a mayor win, mayor is still a hard to kill townsfolk in the same way banshee is, which is good for town

and banshee doesnt even get to use its ability half the time

also you can mayor bounce onto a couple of the outsiders here (puzzlemaster who’s used their guess, tinker) so it’s not just the two YSKs and sometimes philo/amne

[olive drift]

yee

[wraith flume]

also also philo mayor

[olive drift]

insane that mayor of all things is being considered

at the same time

gambler

tea lady

pacifist

like...

they do all really help a mayor

[wraith flume]

mayor is a BMR role :)

[still fern]

Yeah there's a lot both teams can do with a mayor claim

[olive drift]

frankly yea... banshee is very cool but it doesn't do a whole lot.

banshee is so cool tho :/

[olive drift]

yippeeeeeeeeeeeee

[still fern]

It's cool if it does things, which it doesn't

And which seems to be a complaint

[olive drift]

ye the complaint is that DA Lord of Typhon needs to be controlled

As does DA other things

[still fern]

(hell it's a complaint I get about cc, where banshees actually die because evil can kill a known banshee without losing on the spot)

[olive drift]

ye Lord of Typhon+Banshee is a very very great combo for the banshee

it works so nicely

[still fern]

But "anticlimactic DA endgame" and "banshee is a blank token" seem to be the issues people have in the app game sample

[olive drift]

but its like ravenkeeper on trouble brewing

yee

[still fern]

It'd be really good on a script without a grim peeker

[olive drift]

ye

2.2 with Mayor hm

I don't hate it

There are more ways to build trust on a mayor claim here

And I agree

There did need to be a way for good to win in Typhon DA games

I don't love mayor on multideath scripts

[lucid vault]

There's a difference between, like, Po/Mayor and Yaggababble/Mayor though

A Mayor can usually make it to f3 here

[olive drift]

ye

it seems to work on word around town

i personally thought its weird which is why I avoided it

[lucid vault]

The thing I'm a little concerned about is how hardconfirmable a Mayor can be via things like TL and Pacifist

But that's when you stop bouncing ig

[still fern]

No Dashii/Mayor is the one I wonder about on Word Around Town but maybe I'm just traumatized by one game

[quick pier]

mayor PM is not the best interaction

it’s always a bit feelsbad

[still fern]

don't puzzledrunk the mayor ez

[quick pier]

but it’s not the end of the world either

[lucid vault]

guess the mayor and kill your ping

ez

[quick pier]

i mean yes but it’s always a possibility

[olive drift]

its about as bad as drunk mayor

[still fern]

this too

[quick pier]

i’d say it’s much worse since it makes it harder for the PM to guess and it’s undetectable by role checkers

like gambler gambling a drunk mayor does something

[wraith flume]

clearly the bigbrain option is philo-puzzlemaster to make the puzzlemaster drunk

this is a very smart idea and has no problems

[olive drift]

i do agree that PM Mayor isn't ideal

[wraith flume]

though philo-mayor is a genuine strategy

[quick pier]

it’s not script breaking tho

[still fern]

I mean it's like pm poli, just don't do the thing that sucks

[lucid vault]

PM Mayor's an interaction on a ton of good scripts

I've never seen it be a big problem

[still fern]

I like how many Lunar Eclipse/Word Around Town parallels are coming up here

[olive drift]

ye. It's more about tweaking tweaking tweaking

sadly not everything can be perfect

but it can be better and better

I have already made a script which is fun

and also unique

[still fern]

🔥

now to make it winnable!

[olive drift]

yeah

kill your darlings, and let them blaze aflame anew

Version 2.2

Banshee -> Mayor
Banshee doesn't proc very often, and final 3s happen fairly often. Mayor can give good one final chance to win a final 3 if the demon is DA protected.

[wraith flume]

woo

[still fern]

Remember to update botcscripts

[olive drift]

will do

bc ye it does seem that the script is still v evil sided

but equally... people still enjoy it?

[wraith flume]

it's almost like people care less about if they win or lose and care more about whether they had fun

though winning is still nice :p

[vapid escarp]

Yeah it's a custom it doesn't have to be 50/50

[olive drift]

yee

[vapid escarp]

And again the numbers don't indicate an imbalance

[olive drift]

it's still something i'm aiming for

[vapid escarp]

(game feel can be a different story but eh)

[wraith flume]

i mean yeah balance is a good goal

i still think mayor has the potential to lead to more interesting games in combination with the other characters on the script

though i am a self-admitted mayor fan

[olive drift]

yee

I think good have more ways to confirm a mayor more globally

but also stuff like a puzzledrunk mayor feel less relevant when you have philo and pacifist on script

[vapid escarp]

PM can simply guess the mayor and execute that player, making it less than oppressive

I'm more worried about widow and vigor but maybe it's fine

[olive drift]

ye

Vigor Mayor is a much more reasonable thing to worry about!

compared to vigor banshee... it doesn't make any interactions worse?

I do think mayor has some wonky interactions, but Devil's Advocate is both core on this script and a huge problem on this script

[vapid escarp]

Just homebrew a DAlike :sotrue:

[olive drift]

mm ok

done

sadly not demon protection

but who needs that anyway

[vapid escarp]

Breaking tea lady laws 🔥 🔥 🔥

[olive drift]

china shop is really #custom-script-discussion

[vapid escarp]

It doesn't even have useful confirmation mimicry 🔥 🔥 🔥 🔥 🔥

[olive drift]

but has now turned into #homebrew-characters

[wraith flume]

china shop has joined the #custom-script-discussion #speculation-and-spoilers #homebrew-characters collective

[olive drift]

what do u mean by this btw

[vapid escarp]

All channels are #homebrew-characters

[olive drift]

i do love making homebrew

[vapid escarp]

Can't protect the demon so what's the point

[olive drift]

yee

the point is that it pretends to be a sailor

and then punishes science

[vapid escarp]

Yeah I'm sure there's a point but it wouldn't do much on e.g. BMR

[olive drift]

idk i think it might?

[rich oracle]

bluff fool and sit next to a tea lady gg

[vapid escarp]

Well if it coexists with DA then it's fine...... but it overcorrects lol

[olive drift]

anyway

[rich oracle]

simply have your demon be on the other side of the tea lady

[vapid escarp]

Anyway

[olive drift]

yeah... trying to figure out ways for good to counter DA...

sadly alsaahir is alsellout

mayor likely is fine

[vapid escarp]

Janklike 🔥 🔥 🔥

Just add slayer engi preacher heretic

[olive drift]

mayor is v sad with plague doctor honestly if the PD gets a widow ping

[vapid escarp]

All my suggestions are serious ones

[olive drift]

i was dabbling with preacher but ye no

honestly

I love plague doctor in theory

in practice its if you die you are gonna have a vewi vewi vewi bad time

i get that it allows LoT to be miimicked more easily in a non Typhon game

And these minions are all great PD minions

and that the only real replacements would be something boring like butler or saint

i'm not putting klutz back on and saint LoT sounds terrifying

[wraith flume]

butler 🔥

PD is also a great vigorkilled minion bluff tho

(but the other 3 outsiders are also great vigorkill bluffs so its probably fine if 1 wasnt)

[olive drift]

we'll see

it isnt much of a problem

[olive drift]

thank you for helping this script along the way

Hm. I'll try and get another scheduled game of it

[shy spoke]

I couldn't even finish my longtext game before the version became outdated 😢

I will give my thoughts on V2.1 when the game has ended

[olive drift]

to be fair

i unwisely thought that it'll be difficult to improve without completely reworking

also of all the versions 2.1 does have the most games

but ye please do when game is over

and the change is truly quite small in theory

[shy spoke]

Dylan-wall-of-text™

[olive drift]

yay

stolenkisses has leaked that apparently its fun to run

truly mindblowing

[shy spoke]

Oh no! You can draw so much meta information from that (jk)

[olive drift]

ye

[edgy stag]

Sorry gonna have to sub u lmao

[still fern]

v2.1 good win

good HARDSOLVED

knew the demon on 10, got it on 6

and that's with +outsiders in a base 0

(again I think the issue is DA and not really anything else, which is why I think v2.2 should help)

(miny is a big name app player)

[shy spoke]

How many times has this script been playtested out of interest?

Because it seems like it's being played every day

[still fern]

It basically is

[vapid escarp]

I wanna say like 25? Based on the numbers autumn gave that one time

[shy spoke]

Which is a good thing for clarity

[still fern]

Like when I head out of my private lobby where I hyperfocus on genning grims

I see a lobby for this like 60% of the time?

70%

[vapid escarp]

So maybe my numbers are low 👀

[still fern]

Yeah I assume I'm missing games too

[shy spoke]

This thread has more messages than #1030804651085402142 🔥

[still fern]

I wanna reiterate the point I made that this has a lot of, like, big app names

and miny has ~1500 played app games, if she's suggesting something that is a big deal, she's like...significantly more of an app regular than I am a this-server regular

it's legitimately a popular script

[shy spoke]

Anyways, I've got to scribble out banshee and replace it with mayor on my script sheets sigh

[quick pier]

ngl i’m surprised miny picked that

[shy spoke]

And the night order too 😭

Wait that should be fine

[vapid escarp]

I simply got too lazy to actually print until now so I'll be printing 2.2 😎

[vapid escarp]

You just cross off banshee

[shy spoke]

Yh

[still fern]

first ever bmrlike the app big-names like 🔥

[shy spoke]

I wouldn't say the gameplay is similar to BMR at all tbh

It's just got death mod and execution survival

[still fern]

it isn't but there's an idea I wanna put my finger on

[vapid escarp]

It's BMR adjacent

[still fern]

app scripts tend to be a lot like livevoice scripts in the "high info with a poisoner" sense

[vapid escarp]

Ah ok

[still fern]

though I'd make some subtle complex distinctions between those genres

china shop is a noticeable design outlier

[shy spoke]

At least the app players are playing better scripts now

[still fern]

lmao

imo there are differences between "app scripts" and "livevoice scripts" that I can notice in practice but that are harder to express to people who haven't observed a lot of both

[vapid escarp]

Does anyone know how often this gets played in livevoice

[still fern]

tb variants (strings/pies/gingerbread) are a lot more popular in the former

[vapid escarp]

Ik it happens in longtext

[still fern]

never

sharkly tried but it didn't work

[vapid escarp]

And uhh livetext doesn't play fulls

[vapid escarp]

Noooo

[still fern]

livetext plays fulls but only cc

[shy spoke]

*they play Clockwork Cyborg

[vapid escarp]

I might play this irl today, we'll see 👀

[still fern]

an important app/livevoice difference is that the app doesn't poll/doesn't need to design scripts by committee

so people are more willing to play weird stuff

you get more atheists and legions and wizards

[cloud thistle]

It will get played when I go back to uni in spring

[vapid escarp]

Wait on a totally and completely unrelated note, are there ST traps for me to not fall into when running this

[shy spoke]

I'll DM you

Cause the longtext game is still going

[vapid escarp]

Right

[lucid vault]

[-1 token substitution]

[lucid vault]

bonk

though this is for 2.1

[vapid escarp]

Oooh ty

[turbid anchor]

10 Typhon games, 6 Yag and 3 Vigor have been recorded

[olive drift]

Yee. I will say this was written before perhaps the wildest time where this script seemingly started playing this everywhere

[still fern]

I will also say re. plague doctor, because it's been an area of concern for you

The PD died on...I wanna say n3 here?, and assassin-killed the gambler

Who gambled the typhon as typhon

And the gambler went "lol that's PD assassin, I know he's the typhon"

Good has the info to solve here, it's just about getting in there before the DA does

[shy spoke]

How was it hard-solved 😭

[still fern]

There was a lot of info and the line outed to tie off the demon

[shy spoke]

Oh right

Sure

[still fern]

In particular the gambler confirmed the gnome pair and the general in the pair was able to confirm that town was pushing correctly

[lucid vault]

gnome typhon is

a thing

[vapid escarp]

Gnome DA is also a thing lol

[shy spoke]

What are the recommended travellers?

Matron 🔥

[olive drift]

ye

Funnily enough

I did just run a game with a Butcher

like 20 mins ago

not gnome bc it can distinguish tea lady and DA

[shy spoke]

Butcher seems fun

[olive drift]

Butcher is very good sided so its not often run

[shy spoke]

If the butcher is good

[olive drift]

But it was fun in a less experienced player's hands

yE

If the butcher is evil then its cool too

lemme post grim

I would not be kidding if I said one of the main reasons good won was because of the mayor

[shy spoke]

Has it already been tested? 👀

[still fern]

Still if evil tbh

Doubling town's kill rate helps town

[olive drift]

ye

though on the other hand on this script

even a small mistake can lead to evil swarming with votes

[olive drift]

yup

in person game with my uni group

this is a good representation of the game

philo went mayor n2

The reason why the mayor won was because his girlfriend was the yaggababble and he was like 'mayor is such a blank token I might as well psychoanalyse her speech bc she is reading evil'

they didn't find the phrase

but it did make the kills much slower

Amnesiac ability was: Good players you nominate cannot die until dawn.

[shy spoke]

Almost a typhon-line lol

[olive drift]

he didn't figure it out but ye

[olive drift]

yeee

the savant info was a bit damaging bc even if it was false it framed a typhon line

most games of china shop have evil in almost a typhon line for some reason

its just their curse

but really

Very fun game to run

players enjoyed it a lot

[lucid vault]

Even if it's evil, giving town extra executions helps the good team

It's a similar phenomenon as Voudon where it doesn't matter what alignment the trav is

[vapid escarp]

I mean, that's only partly true

The butcher has choice

Worst case scenario they out evil and it's entirely fine

I agree that it's good sided just not in the voudon sense

[shy spoke]

In a LoT game, if the traveller started in the game, they'd have to be in the LoT line to be evil fwiw

Voudon + vigor is cool tho

[vapid escarp]

We had newish players so we didn't play china shop last night 😔 it'll happen tho

[olive drift]

That's fair

Actually running it

It's not too bad to run

Keep me posted if you do tho

[vapid escarp]

Oh for sure

[shy spoke]

What is (ST) Autumn storytelling? 👀

[olive drift]

Nothing actually

[shy spoke]

It's *st btw

[olive drift]

Ah

I tried that I think

But there was a delay

So I tried ! Instead

[olive drift]

Vigor loss sob

[still fern]

I can finally dump thoughts here!

[edgy stag]

hoooly shit that was fun

[still fern]

This is actually not too far off some stuff I've seen in other games, which is basically -- I think you overcorrected on "are too many people dying"

[shy spoke]

I rly like mayor here fwiw

[fierce kestrel]

That was cursed.

[still fern]

Like in practice usually the innkeeper is an outsider because they just get the gambler every night somehow, but regardless of which demon is in play, the kill pace for 2.1[/2.2] is actually pretty slow

[olive drift]

Yee

[shy spoke]

I think amnesiac is maybe the weakest link though? Instead of banshee. It's a fun character, but it has either 5 million days to guess their ability or 2.

[still fern]

I don't love philo here but I love philo nowhere I think

[olive drift]

I aim for 4 things DA can bluff

[still fern]

I think yeah from the increasingly large sample of games I've seen across all three demons that none of them actually have that much killpower (yes, typhon gets an extra minion, but every minion here that isn't DA is an accessory, in practice)

[edgy stag]

that game was incredibly funny due to the innkeep just doing it

[still fern]

#a-stick-in-time-saves-nine

[edgy stag]

i love my girlfriend that was impressive

[shy spoke]

Completely mindread the demon lol

[still fern]

I do not like the philo tea lady. Are you sure you wish to commit to the existence of the philo tea lady

[still fern]

I love amne here honestly

It has a lot of strategic/design space

[shy spoke]

Grimoire fwiw

[olive drift]

Ye I like Amnesiac balancing thinfs

In LoT

[still fern]

I didn't like the philo-tl even in theory but even less now lol

When did the script lose Mathematician? I know that was here at one point

[olive drift]

It was never on here

[shy spoke]

Is this like a mechanical amne ability only script?

[still fern]

I am sure I've rolled cs grims wth a math

[olive drift]

No

[still fern]

for some form of 1.x

[olive drift]

You can do info Amnesiac

Or mech amne

[still fern]

anyway, ~for your consideration~ math is awesome here and can collab with an innkeeper in a more interesting way than a philo-tl next to the psychic innkeeper can, and I think kill pace has been overcorrected on because none of the demons kill that much in the 2.x series (typhon in practice is +DA and nothing else, yagga often doesn't say it much here)

[shy spoke]

Yaggababble is rly strong with protection roles compared to the other demons fwiw

[rich oracle]

philo tl seems very strong

[shy spoke]

Which is definitely good

[olive drift]

Is Philo TL much worse than TL? But ye Philo TL did seem strong

[still fern]

Philo is a pain in the ass to balance for similar reasons to Kazali

[shy spoke]

It's just that you can't bag-build around it

[still fern]

That is, it introduces its personal optimal role to a setup

[shy spoke]

And balance the killing roles and protection roles

[rich oracle]

i don't think the innkeeper neighbouring the tea lady gets shown as a grandchild, for example

[still fern]

This script already has the swingiest demons in the damn game

[olive drift]

Yee fair

[shy spoke]

They weren't a TL at the time tho

[still fern]

Yeah exactly

[olive drift]

Ye

[rich oracle]

yeah that's my point

i'm not critiquing st choices

[olive drift]

That her point

[shy spoke]

Grandchild IK is really strong too I've realised

[olive drift]

Ok I'll definitely consider it. 3 DA bluffs is borderline good

[still fern]

Giving any of the extremely bluffcoded roles as grandchildren is strong

[shy spoke]

As they are confirmed, so have like a full grim to make optimal protections

[shy spoke]

The demon can never really bluff as a sober innkeeper tho

[olive drift]

BMR has 4 exe protection good players

[rich oracle]

the demon can pretty easily bluff a sober innkeeper

they just need to sink more

or if they're yaggababble

[still fern]

especially with other death protection in play

[olive drift]

It's at great cost but yes they could

[rich oracle]

say their phrase less

[shy spoke]

When they get to a f3, it'll be suspicious imo

[olive drift]

Just have a minion bluff it

[still fern]

dropping philo you've still got tl, amne, paci, which I think by weight is more than enough

like they're better DA bluffs than e.g. fool

[olive drift]

Ye

[still fern]

(I recently saw the amne here of "outsiders can't die by execution", which the amne died fairly early but it was a cool one)

[shy spoke]

I think Philo -> Banshee would be my suggestion, but I don't know the script nearly as well

[shy spoke]

Most powerful godfather ever lol

[still fern]

math is way, way better here than banshee

if it's never been here I'm legit surprised

I swear it's been here

it fits so well on vibes

[shy spoke]

I don't love it with no misreg ngl

[still fern]

it's got both droison and weird stuff like mayor

[rich oracle]

i disagree

[still fern]

and droison from both sides

[shy spoke]

And widow pings that are tricky to bluff

[rich oracle]

tea lady, innkeeper, assassin, mayor

[olive drift]

I mean acrobat was on here

But not math

[still fern]

widow pings are more easily bluffable than average here because you don't need the minion count to check out

[south hollow]

yeah this is as good a script as any for math imo

[still fern]

it's still harder than e.g. kazali but that's too high a benchmark

[shy spoke]

How is a LoT line co-ordinating before the first 3 seconds of the game?

[still fern]

(similar corollary: this script encourages self-poisoning widows which is a nice counter to typhon's power)

[rich oracle]

nw down the chain

[still fern]

they're not, you bluff widow ping with another demon in play so if the minion count doesn't work it looks like typhon

and you know n1 what demon is in play because you don't draw a minion token in typhon

[shy spoke]

What if another player learnt a widow ping tho?

Then it's a DC

[olive drift]

You're a self poisoning widow

[still fern]

1. some games are 1 minion
2. not everyone immediately yells it out in the first 2 seconds of d1

it's a good script to bluff them on basically

[vapid escarp]

Oh boy do I have news for you then

I ran it twice yesterday :D

Game 1 grim

(substitutions are obvious I hope)

Wait shoot I'm trying to remember who was excecuted last

I think it was the witch

The assassin was somewhat outed between the tea lady fail and the incorrect gamble (the demon killed the gambler that night anyway lol)

Also the witch had a guaranteed win and just didn't see it so sank the curse

We ran this with moonlight btw, dw TL didn't break with the traveler

TC feels good here! It's weird and a little off vibe but it really works on this infoscape so who cares that it's off vibe

Game 2

Vigor win!!!!

Despite what it maybe looks like, they won after good excecuted wrong on 4

The demon was protected on 4, the right answer was sleeping or just exe the demon

[shy spoke]

Who did the widow poison?

[vapid escarp]

Instead they double tapped the plague doctor (sh token) next to the TL claim (DA)

[vapid escarp]

Town crier, those 2 false yesses were huge

The general got the ping

The amne ability was "Each night, choose 2 players: if both are good, neither can die until dusk." It wasn't guessed but it did protect the plague doctor n2 which was huge

Portable tea lady :)

[still fern]

booo it's hilarious

(also I am incredibly unconvinced of moonlight with the China Shop demon suite)

[vapid escarp]

The knight learned the mayor and the DA and got bone collected on the final night, I think adding the tinker to that was the most balanced option

[shy spoke]

It's fine if the only traveller is deviant lol

[vapid escarp]

Me when it's a science script and you get bonus executions

[vapid escarp]

Yeah that's what I did at first then we got a second trav

[shy spoke]

2 deviants 😎

[vapid escarp]

So true

[still fern]

It's the "predeterminedly give up your ability at the beginning of the night if you want to kill a trav" problem

[vapid escarp]

Balloonist info was something like vigor mayor da general tinker

[vapid escarp]

Oh yeah that's reasonable, but I mean lesser of two evils

[shy spoke]

Balloonist is rly strong at evil-finding with the no hidden outsiders

[vapid escarp]

Yeah I had to cap its info at the end by showing the tinker

It was still really strong info

[shy spoke]

PD always comes out eventually

[still fern]

Yeah but so does like, mutant

[shy spoke]

Yh that's very fair

[still fern]

On a script with outed outsiders balloon should def learn outsider claims frequently or it's just an ongoing seam

But pd is about as okay to show the balloon as mutant is

[shy spoke]

Lepa came out as the plague-doctor once they were nominated (after being in balloonist N1 ping) in the text game

As he was claiming grandmother

[vapid escarp]

Also I put a mayor in the vigor DA game to test it and then the mayor was executed early and the vigor never killed a minion

[still fern]

many such cases

"no I can't kill my minions I might lose evil votes -- what do you mean they got executed"

[shy spoke]

DA is rly strong ngl

But mayor balances it nicely

[vapid escarp]

I sure hope so lol

I'm a little worried about mayor with this misinfoscape

There's no acro to detect if the mayor is poisoned

Like you can just vigorkill a widow and full send mayor and there's no way to tell that's happening

You did NOT just react with

Ok general is valid

[shy spoke]

But counterpoint - it's vigor

[still fern]

Trying to work out how plausible it is for the mayor to be droisoned in f3 off factors other than mechanical info is absolutely a homescript interaction

This script has more to solve that with than tb does

[vapid escarp]

You can also vigor poison the mayor by accident and simply not kill them

[vapid escarp]

Ok go on

I only see general and savant

[still fern]

savant, general -- yeah

tb usually has "nothing lol"

[vapid escarp]

TB has half the infoscape

[still fern]

at bare minimum it's a sidegrade

and determining that the mayor is the mayor is a much more plausible goal than on tb

[vapid escarp]

[still fern]

rk doesn't count and you know it

[vapid escarp]

Can all have a good sense of whether or not the mayor is droisoned

[still fern]

frankly neither does ww, no ww-confirmed mayor has ever seen f3

it's undertaker, investigator, and a half-point for librarian

[vapid escarp]

There's 4 separate characters it can see that would solve it

[still fern]

like, the idea I'm gesturing at is "the mayor is good" and "the mayor is sober" are both ideas tb has to deal with and intentionally makes it very difficult to deal with

and this script has bmr confirmation

which is more player-agentic than tb confirmation

and therefore better at confirming intentionally suspicious roles like mayors

[vapid escarp]

Right, figuring out that the mayor is good isn't incredibly difficult, but droison is the problem

[still fern]

and it is by design a problem on tb too

I think it works out fine

[vapid escarp]

Not as much tho

[shy spoke]

Poison isn't mobile here. If you think another player is poisoned, then the mayor likely isn't.

[still fern]

lots of tb games "may or may not" have a living poisoner at endgame

[vapid escarp]

Right but how can you tell lol

nobody had any idea that the TC was poisoned

[still fern]

and the droison on this script is much more limited than on tb while simultaneously being detectable

[vapid escarp]

I don't know that acrobat would fit here but it would fix this particular problem

[shy spoke]

If it's fully solvable, that's worse, no?

[vapid escarp]

?? That's not what I'm saying

[still fern]

mayor needs a lot of ambiguity or it just stomps

the script is, by its nature, balanced on a knife's edge

[shy spoke]

Idk, maybe fisherman could help?

[still fern]

anyway mathematician when

[vapid escarp]

Ok that's true

[vapid escarp]

Yeah fish is a totally valid way to help

[still fern]

(in 2.3 🙏)

[shy spoke]

Also, there's character/alignment detection that can confirm the mayor, droison might have to be a factor?

(Or the ST can just kill the mayor)

Amne -> fish maybe?

Or philo

[still fern]

amne is great

[vapid escarp]

But yeah this script was super fun!!!!!!! The infoscape is varied in a way that feels really good. Both games felt really close and both teams & myself had fun, we're definitely running this again at some point

[still fern]

philo is a weak link but math is cooler here than fish imo

[vapid escarp]

Yeah because I used my one cool amne ability here already /j

Portable tea lady was basically my first thought when I saw amne here and now I'm out of ideas

[still fern]

amne bluff 😎

[shy spoke]

I did an alive character type chef sort of thing when I ran it

But I think mechanical abilities are better ngl

[vapid escarp]

I mean afaik the intent is explicitly to do both

[lucid vault]

https://tenor.com/view/yippie-explosion-gif-12585051434570676675

[surreal forge]

I think this is a problem with “Newloonist is either outs evils or is HyperAss”

[fierce kestrel]

Yeah, new Balloonist isn't great with open Outsiders.

[surreal forge]

Yeah, new Balloonist isn't great with open Outsiders.

[lucid vault]

this would've happened with old balloonist too requiem

just that the balloonist would've seen the tinker n4 instead of n5

anyway take that might be deranged: philo feels like amne but with the intent to swing as hard as possible toward good, and is therefore the kazali of townsfolk here

it's big big gapfiller

but its choices are just insane here

all of them are good in different scenarios and if it doesn't die n2 it can just kinda win via philo tl/paci/mayor/knight/grandma/ik/etc

i don't love math here? the vibe is off in that regard

acro could be interesting, i honestly want to see return of fool and see how that plays

[shy spoke]

Current suggestions for a replacement of philosopher:

• Acrobat
• Fool
• Mathematician
• Fisherman

I think this covers everyone's suggestions?

[vapid escarp]

OH ALSO

Puzzlemaster (and undirected droison in general) feels kinda bad with science, which is why I simply didn't put it in

[shy spoke]

PM is strong here

No demon mobility

[vapid escarp]

I get that there's non science here but being a puzzledrunk TL would feel bad to me

[shy spoke]

For good or evil?

[vapid escarp]

Both, but mostly for good

Science isn't quite script carrying here but having an arbitrary false negative makes science executions almost not worth it

[olive drift]

Well I'm missing a lot

Lemme reread

[still fern]

I've seen puzzledrunk tl in a real game and it didn't seem to feel bad for the tl

[olive drift]

Mathematician - I feel a math 1 on night 1 is incredibly strong here. Other stuff like confirming innkeepers and tea ladies on nights of no deaths makes math feel really strong. I don't think there is enough here to justify math.

Fool - It's ok. any specific vision for fool?

Acrobat - I think its neat, but now only detects innkeeping, puzzledrunking, widowing and vigoring

it has the potential to be really strong. i prefer it over math tho

Fisherman - It's alright. Would want to see if anything else slots better

[lucid vault]

coward but also... as someone who has puzzledrunked sailors and TLs before, it really doesn't feel too bad? I think this script especially has a lot of cover (not as much as, say, lunar eclipse) where it's not an instant puzzleguess

Like in practice it just works out

[olive drift]

Acrobat, Banshee, Cannibal all come to mind

[shy spoke]

In vigor games, I wouldn't want to ever put a fool in?

It feels like it'd either out a minion or slow the game down

[olive drift]

also coincidentally they are ABC

ye

fool I just... don't see doing mcuh?

[shy spoke]

Cannibal makes these YSK roles pretty terrible bluffs for a demon ngl

[olive drift]

yee

[lucid vault]

Cannibal seems incredibly strong

[shy spoke]

Knight felt really bluffable for Kabluwe which I like

[olive drift]

cannibal tea lady paci all play together weird

[lucid vault]

This is true for literally every YSK on a cannibal script?

[olive drift]

and good are executing

[shy spoke]

Yh

[olive drift]

there are reasons to execute

[lucid vault]

Also yeah it doubles up on science

for reasons to execute

[olive drift]

Noble?

[lucid vault]

Quick check - chambermaid is utterly busted here right

[olive drift]

chambermaid is interesting with yagg

[lucid vault]

(i'm rotating this script in my head and smushing it against other scripts I like)

[olive drift]

but ye outsiders unbluffale by other two demons

CM minions all have unique enough waking

[lucid vault]

aah there's no mastermind slot here

for bluffing nonwaking

[olive drift]

could work just feels strong

[lucid vault]

so a d1 checked tl/paci/mayor is just kinda confirmed

[olive drift]

well theres widow which is nonwaking for most but ye

[lucid vault]

It's the YSK pattern

both it and godfather*

[olive drift]

ye

[lucid vault]

lunar eclipse has Zombuul to solve this and also marionette

[olive drift]

banshee acrobat noble

[olive drift]

yee

its weird evil are kinda slower to kill kill kill

[still fern]

There's Always Fisherman™️

[lucid vault]

Fisherman works but is more ST overhead on an already very intensive script

[olive drift]

yee

noble does bring something unique weirdly enough. old version of script also had juggler (but i think with limited droison its very strong)

i dont think math is the way

[still fern]

I don't like trying to make noble pings on typhon scripts tbh

[olive drift]

the 1 acro game i had was it confirming most the grim as sober and executing a minion bluffing innkeeper because 'i would have died by now'

[olive drift]

yee

[still fern]

Like I roll grims for that on Witch Hunt and I space the pings as well as I possibly can and I go "town is going to have deconfirmed typhon on d3 after they execute the only possible typhon candidates"

[olive drift]

yee

i'll keep searching

also n1 info is worse with vigor

[still fern]

Vigor puts strange demands on info landscapes because simultaneously it wants poison to actually do things, but also the best time to kill your minions is early (while blind killing a random minion n2 is not a good strat, it would have a higher average success rate than how most people play vigor...) and the intent is that minions can immediately come out with majorly influential bluffs after 1-2 nights of info

I think the ysks currently on the script, gambler, savant, and the outsiders are your current points for this

[olive drift]

banshee+mayor?
juggler+gamvbler?
acrobat??

[still fern]

Juggler rips a hole in this script I think

[olive drift]

ye

return of alsaahir???

I feel alsaahir LoT is an each day slayer shot in smaller games

[south hollow]

It's not because they can only clear players of being the demon in Typhon worlds

And Alsahiir is weak af anyway

[vapid escarp]

I'll take your word for it, I just think permanent vertical droison would feel really bad on bmr and I'm carrying over that impression to this script

[olive drift]

alsaahir prolly is ok here then or banshee?

With mayor banshee procs can happen more often

[still fern]

I think banshee here is a darling that has to be killed

If you have evil control kills it's a blank token with a reportedly miserable play pattern, and if you let ST-dictated kills proc a banshee it's way way more oppressive than on a normal script

[olive drift]

ye

but its either yagg or mayor

sadly i dont think any suggestion here fits well

acro is cool on this type of script but dies too infrequently and too specifically

banshee has the above stated issue

i still think its cool tho

fool

fool is pretty filler and inoffensive but idk what its doing except slowing down the game

mathematician has situations (like math 1 n1) which quickly solve the game

fool likely is the best even if I don't like it

[still fern]

I tend to agree fool doesn't really do anything here

Fisherman -- I mean yes it's an ST-intensive script but it's cool

It's a great bluff for like multiple evil team configurations here also

[olive drift]

ye it is its just like... it always kinda is

[fringe socket]

btw we're playing this in Live rn

[still fern]

Which version?

[fringe socket]

2.2

[olive drift]

the cool version

wait so where?

[still fern]

#pickup-game-chat

anyway fisherman is cool I am now fighting for it

[olive drift]

it is. it just feels like more unique characters exist and its like... the fits anywhere character. its good for that

i wont deny

and i don't think you can go wrong with fisherman

[olive drift]

the only way you can go wrong with fisherman is if a better character exists and you just put generic and ST fish on instead

[olive drift]

ye this is tough. And I kinda agree that newloonist with these outsiders also isn't as interesting as it could be

balloonist reaches its heights with hidden outsiders

thats where its most interesting

So now with those pointed out I do need to think how to deal with this

[still fern]

@vocal stirrup you said you had thoughts on the script? we're trying to work out 2.3

[vocal stirrup]

It's not bad, It's just town doesn't have much to point at minions/ demons other than town crier/ savant maybe

[olive drift]

ye

[still fern]

Fisherman 😎

[olive drift]

i guess

[still fern]

(town solved but the assassin lived to endgame unspent so evil won)

[olive drift]

i see

this is the worry with mayor but eh

[still fern]

I mean banshee doesn't fix that either

That one's just "don't let the assassin do that"

[olive drift]

YEE

true

idk it feels like the script is almost really good but it is a bit of a nightmare to balance haha

but ok feedback is get some pointers

[wraith flume]

I just caught up on this thread, don’t have much to say except that I second philo -> acrobat

I do think 4 sources of droison is enough, especially given each source is a different character type

[olive drift]

mm

well it seems like its acrobat or fisherman. fisherman is much more of a pointer though than acro

acro can confirm mayors being sober which is strong

[wraith flume]

do you think town needs more pointers?

it's a BMR-like after all

[still fern]

It's an ongoing note I've heard

BMR has more demonfinders and adjacents than this

[wraith flume]

yeah that's fair

[olive drift]

exorcist and also the confirmation chains in BMR are just weird

chambermaid too

but this is based off feedback

i really want something better than fisherman to exist

i really do

[wraith flume]

seamstress?

it would be a weird inclusion

but like

maybe??

[olive drift]

too much i fee;

feel

a seamstress yes on opposite sides of the grim rule out so many typhon lines

[wraith flume]

true

[olive drift]

which is where a lot of this script's paranoia comes from

fisherman is likely good and i'll probably like it

i do think this is an almost great acrobat script tho