China Shop

[olive drift]

getting info that helps them find it

[shy spoke]

Mayor is likely the best alternative imo

[olive drift]

Mayor on a multi-kill script is questionable

[shy spoke]

I mean, yeah

Assassins likely won't still have their ability tho

[olive drift]

still, yaggababble's whole thing is extra deaths

And vigor also makes a mayor win look scary

ok

[shy spoke]

Just checking the grimoire stream again: ||wtf happened lmao||

[olive drift]

||huhhh??||

keep on getting this error

let's just say though

that we don't have widow on

that would we have on?

boffin technically works

boffin innkeeper+boffin philosopher is incredibly strong though

[shy spoke]

Xaan perhaps?

Nice synergy with godfather

[olive drift]

it is

of course, it makes grandmother as bluffable as BMR

Spy potentially

does add the first jinx on the script (spy Plague Doctor)

[shy spoke]

Evil won

[olive drift]

ye

i saw

what a surprise

what would have thunk it

average LoT China Shop game

the gimmick of 'each minion has its own tells' is nice in theory, but widow is really strong

spy does have an issue that it messes with savant in a mean way

[shy spoke]

Widow allows the evil team to +1 outsider and dispatch powerful roles efficiently

[olive drift]

Mastermind?

[olive drift]

yea

Ok I'm just looking through

[shy spoke]

Probably not

[olive drift]

Yea of course

I also need to consider this is a vigor script

[shy spoke]

Pit-hag?

[olive drift]

I want no demon movement

[shy spoke]

Probably not

[olive drift]

And also pit hag+knight

[shy spoke]

Yh

[olive drift]

The demons need to stick where they are

that's also why SW is a no

I'm thinking Spy

[shy spoke]

Spy + grandmother is so specific tho

[olive drift]

Can be saved by Pacifists and Tea Ladies, which gives its own unique twist

[shy spoke]

Yh

[olive drift]

Also gambled as anything by gamblers

[shy spoke]

Rough vigor kill tho

[olive drift]

It's not the best vigor kill is it

And also

I don't like conditional misreg+savant

I think it needs to be run in a specific way

Xaan is alright

I'm not that sold on it because instead of +1 Outsider

Its like everyne is an outsider

Watch a xaan night make everyone go insane over an unfortunate tea lady

[shy spoke]

Are you planning on updating this when the expansions are released?

[olive drift]

and the tea lady turn on the pacifist

[olive drift]

as in

Carousel?

Or GSoE

like the big one

[shy spoke]

GSoE and the other unreleased ones

[olive drift]

If I am around in this community by then, I will consider it

BOTC gives me great joy. I hope that will persist

hm

See I do like spy here

but it isn't great with vigor

[shy spoke]

Organ grinder is maybe workable

[olive drift]

n

o

[shy spoke]

Fair

[olive drift]

I'm not playing a Lord of Typhon Organ Grinder game

ever

sadly Plague Doctor feels like the best possible outsider. Golem might be considered but it is really Townsfoly

[vapid escarp]

what makes golem townsfolky here?? all i see is mc and even then it's not that bad

[shy spoke]

No demon mobility

Ignoring DA

[vapid escarp]

wait huh

[olive drift]

Golem can 1. kill a minion

[vapid escarp]

what does that have to do with it

[olive drift]

2. prove its not evil, therefore breaking all worlds where it is in a typhon line

[vapid escarp]

oh typhon

yea ok

[olive drift]

the sad thing is that maybe that is what good needs

[vapid escarp]

killing a minion is like

fine

depends on the minion

but these are all fine

[olive drift]

it still can be evil in yagga worlds

I need 1 more townsfolk to finish off the 'the script maker is going insane trying to balance this' variant

honestly though I think even if it isn't info, I should strongly consider Preacher in some capacity on this script

[shy spoke]

China superstore lmao

[olive drift]

strengthens exe-survival confirmation chains, and stops extra kill shenanagins from minions

[olive drift]

yea it will go back to china shop

but for now... while I make some changes which are less than official and more out of desperation than anything else

China Superstore

[shy spoke]

Godfather getting a kill thanks to the spy dying in the day 💯

[olive drift]

that's why the pacifist saves the spy 💯

100% a townsfolk

[shy spoke]

Wait

Spy starts with a token in LoT

[olive drift]

yes

[shy spoke]

That's fun with grandmother

[olive drift]

yea

its also why I like LoT widow with grandmother

bc if the Widow poisons the grandmother

the grandmother can see any of the evil team with a premade bluff

but ye

[shy spoke]

Chambermaid with no waking outsiders is rough tho

[olive drift]

true!

also if I have spy I don't want savant

which was one of the strongest good information gatherers

😭

savant in BMR is so fun

alas it is not meant to be

[shy spoke]

Village idiot?

[olive drift]

maybe

[shy spoke]

Fun with spy

[olive drift]

mayybe

oh sigh

how the mighty have fallen

#1280673118373023805 message

My issue with VI is that I percieve it as weak

it adds a drunk

a drunk which could have been a townsfolk

maybe the info it gets is so worth it that its actually great

[still fern]

You need to rename the json to just "China Shop" on the copy you upload

[olive drift]

I have

[still fern]

Both the file and the json itself

[olive drift]

hm

wait

yes

yes

i havent

ok

Not that it matters anyway because the script is going through metamorphisis yet again

as i see a cow yet again crush the town

[still fern]

Anyway I've been hyperfocusing on genning grims for this and it already somewhat feels to me like town has been buffed too much against "Typhon keeps stomping" to be too strong against the other demons (who by nature of their abilities have a harder time than a generic demon with killing townsfolk who annoy them)

[olive drift]

which version

2.0 or superstore

[still fern]

2.0

[olive drift]

i see

the only changes between 2.0 and most other versions is

Klutz->Moonchild and Acrobat->Gambler

[shy spoke]

Farmer -> banshee?

[olive drift]

Oh yes of course Farmer->Banshee

I mean sure, these are all buffs to town

The most significant probably being klutz to moonchild in practice

i think i might need to see 2.0 being played admittedly

[still fern]

Banshee makes it harder for other demons to sell Typhon but if you're lucky with where the tokens fall it's workable (if you're really lucky you can pop a banshee to deconfirm yourself as typhon)

[lucid vault]

if only someone would run it

[olive drift]

if only

[still fern]

But yeah I've been kind of hyperfocusing on grims in advance of the scheduled and going "hm, I sure hope I don't roll yagga"

Because it already feels like it sucks a bit if you're not-typhon

[olive drift]

Mm

Unsure

Yagga if anything have received buffs

Banshee is better for yagga than farmer

And moonchild is much nicer for yagga to bluff than klutz

[still fern]

Objectively vigor is probably worse here but I can play vigor, I don't know how to play yagga and would probably get the legendary 0 kills yagga game so it's the non-typhon demon whose "lower townsfolk counterplay + having to deal with a town buffed for the [+1 Minion] demon" scares me-personally-from-the-hypothetical-demon-seat more

(and it's the only demon on the script likely to lose multiple minion abilities to town)

[olive drift]

I've played in a yagga game in 1.2. Yagga killed at incredible speed and we lost to a klutz pick

Yagga also won a livetext single minion game on 1.3 I think

I think the towns power against yagga has stayed quite stable

[still fern]

Having said that I think general works better than hp here

I theoretically want spy over widow but if putting on spy requires removing savant I don't (savant is in a core of this script in my head)

[olive drift]

yea

Its personal preference

But I don't usually like savant+arbritrary misreg

unless the script is specifically built around misreg as the main source of misinfo

otherwise you just can... give up when trying to solve savant info

because now your phrases aren't even 100% clear what they mean

so trying to find true/false of that is hard

[still fern]

I think savant misreg boils down to "be a good ST and not a bad one" (true on this script and typhon scripts as is) but savant is corer to what I look at when I look at this than "which of spy or widow has slightly less sharp edges"

[olive drift]

we'll see

i do feel sandbagging the plague doctor comes more from teh good team not doing enough

than the plague doctor itself

I might honestly consider Alsaahir->Preacher on 2.0 though

The Alsaahir doesn't have much to go on for its guesses

[lucid vault]

neither does the preacher with its whole ability :p

[olive drift]

sure

[still fern]

I think preacher is in exactly the wrong point here for the cross-section of "town feels like they're directionless and don't have anything to go on" and "you just rolled a non-typhon demon token, what's your wincon"

[vapid escarp]

this is why preacher works with only 1 character (vizier)

[lucid vault]

fearmonger, goblin, and boomdandy:

[olive drift]

i'd argue DA preacher is decent

[lucid vault]

Not really? Knowing someone isn't the DA isn't quite the same as knowing someone isn't an active FM/goblin/boomdandy

Because evils on a DA team can just take the DA-coded bluffs instead

while the DA bluffs savant or something

[olive drift]

sure

but that then becomes more tricky

[lucid vault]

and you're back to being kinda directionless

[olive drift]

the player doing the protecting now is not the one bluffing

they wont know for sure what the DA is up to unless they talk every day

and that creates socials

[lucid vault]

hm that's fair actually

still not great with like any of the other minions though 😭

[olive drift]

fair

i more see it as

'Preacher stops the extra killing Minions from doing extra kills, and gives town more time'

[lucid vault]

sure, but then it gets framed 90% of the time

[olive drift]

the alternative usually is a blow out for evil tho

[still fern]

I think "more straightforward info" is your missing gap and not "fuzzy mechanical abilities that are super strong when they hit and otherwise do nothing"

[olive drift]

i don't think this script's good team is unbalanced against vigor or yagga

sure

but the straightforward info is hard to find

let's say it is alsaahir->???

[still fern]

Honestly thinking about VI since the reproposal of it

I am starting to hate VI less

It was godawful when it came out but is okay now

[olive drift]

is VI gonna strengthen town?

[still fern]

(for similar reasons to Typhon...)

[lucid vault]

Philo-VI here seems super strong

[olive drift]

sure

[lucid vault]

And philo is already a bit of a gigachad here what with paci

TL

[still fern]

oh yeah that's probably a lot

[lucid vault]

evil doesn't have the droison you want, though it might have the killing power

so maybe it's not so bad?

[olive drift]

puzzlemaster+widow is... well more than enough on this script

in its current state

[lucid vault]

if there isn't a PM claim or widow call town can trust all their info

[still fern]

I love the demon line here on paper but they're all such goddamn weird demons

[lucid vault]

which is usually fine but VI throws a bit of a wrench into things

[still fern]

vigor poison again implicitly confirmed not real

[lucid vault]

I mean it's not

[still fern]

tragically

[olive drift]

i mEAN

[lucid vault]

why did you reject sailor again?

[olive drift]

Sailor+whatever info roles we have

I don't like it with amne, balloonist, general, savant

[lucid vault]

true true

[olive drift]

its not as good as BMR sailor by a mile

Lycan is strong but its misreg+its too strong against vigor

Oracle will solo solve here

oh yea and oracle+general have some overlap

I do like oracle but it makes Vigor really obvious

Dreamer I talked about, but Dreamer+Yaggababble seems uniquely harsh

shugenja is alright

i do want more ongoing info but shugenja does work

powerful with philo

hm

I mean, i think its a buff. maybe with philo it is a huge buff

if i'm considering shug i might also consider seamstress

i didn't think I'd ever see seamstress on this script

but here we are

seamstress+banshee is fine

[still fern]

I've run into the problem before of seam/banshee mechconfirming a seam as puzzledrunk when the very sus banshee later procs

[olive drift]

hmm

[still fern]

This is not the worst, it's still on cc

The thing I think about on CS is that on paper this is already a very strong town but it's not reflected in games

(this is also CC's problem, actually)

[olive drift]

ye

in practice, its made me completely reevalaute what is strong and weak

they'll be fine!

[still fern]

I love the demon suite but they're a set of glass cannons and Typhon keeps rolling grims on here where it just becomes a cannon

[olive drift]

they in fact were not fine

[still fern]

Maybe you just need a game where the typhon gets super unlucky?

Like one of your complaints is that the typhon keeps absorbing great picks

And this is just a thing the transformation demons do

[olive drift]

sighs

even in games when they don't

[still fern]

They're incredibly strange demons whose patterns of strengths and weaknesses are not reflected in their text

I think these days that any script with them is going to be volatile

[olive drift]

i might consider putting less outsiders in LoT bags

[still fern]

Yeah when I saw that discussion it stuck in my head

Typhon -0/-1 seems balanced here

(which a decent chunk of the time will actually be a Typhon -2)

[olive drift]

I still feel that swapping alsaahir out for more direct info is a reasonable move

[still fern]

I think this is true (and that the fear of vigor/DA being unbeatable if there isn't some direct mechanical counter is unfounded on a death mod script)

The real counter honestly for vigor/DA is that from a purely mechanical perspective vigor is desperately undertuned and its wincon is to do crazy things with execution manipulation and confirmation mimicry

Which can be very, very strong indeed, but purely mechanically, you can just...kill the vigor on 5?

[olive drift]

i do like alsaahir, and the lack of demon copying+movement does make it seem to fit

but

[still fern]

And you have enough death mod that you can't perfectly rhythmically guarantee the DA can just line up protections all game

[olive drift]

there is a thing with seamstress that simply choosing opposite sides of the grim and getting a 'yes' is a lot to limit typhon worlds

[still fern]

yeah this is a huge pain for other demons

shugenja is interesting here I think

[olive drift]

shugenja probably is better yea

[still fern]

usually it's strong against typhon but it works on witch hunt and it'd work here

[olive drift]

my main fear is philo-shug+ real shug

its combos like those that make me see that yea, evil being in a line sucks

but up to now china shop just didn't have any good characters that can leverage that

except banshee

[quick pier]

Witch hunt mentioned!1!1!1!1!

[olive drift]

hi

[quick pier]

howdy

[olive drift]

welcome to the other LoT script

i am going insane

[quick pier]

i’ve played this one before it’s quite fun

[olive drift]

hows stuff in Witch Hunt

Yea

the issue is that if I am counting correctly

[quick pier]

it’s pretty solid rn finally got rid of goblin and it’s been run much better

i want to run it more but i don’t have enough time

[olive drift]

LoT has managed a 75%-80% winrate

[quick pier]

wow

[olive drift]

oo cool

[quick pier]

that’s like the highest LoT winrate i’ve ever seen

[olive drift]

so yea, there are some issues

well not many games

[still fern]

I want to run wh 👀 👀 👀 #event-listings message

[still fern]

yeah this is the miracle script where typhon has a 150% winrate

the thing I think about when thinking about how to counter typhon on here is "how do we let the other demons sell typhon"

[quick pier]

🔥🔥🔥please do

[still fern]

because these are all demons that REALLY want to force a demon type missolve but typhon can get away with being more outed than usual on this script for death mod reasons

but if you're the yagga or especially vigor part of your wincon is building plausible typhon lines

[olive drift]

yea

shugenja+philo do together come closest to 'hey we can show you where the typhon line is!'

[still fern]

and notably these are both demons that have some difficulty counterplaying annoying townsfolk -- yagga can't direct its kills as a balance feature (though it can influence them), while vigor wants to divert early kills and also has to deal with more townsfolk in the process

so you might end up needing to build some very, very specific typhon worlds

which is what I think about when genning grims and going "so if I'm the other demon, what are my frames on this grim"

[olive drift]

and also them together also help break typhon lines

like I think evil have ok chances here

admittedly though, both banshee and grandmother can give social reasons to trust the "typhon lines"

what i've found though vati is

at least with typhon vigor worlds seem to be often made because it explains abilities not working

[still fern]

Yeah I was curious exactly how often typhon plays for the demon type missolve on here vs just outing evil in f5

[olive drift]

Usually missolve happens earlier

But ye when I'm storytelling this I often see typhon try and be sneaky with it

When I feel that is not necessary

on here at least

[still fern]

I'm trying to find a way to say this but are you sure your players aren't just too good

Typhon can suffer pretty hard when evil is passive

[olive drift]

but ye at least 2 losses have happened with the evil team or mebers effectively outing

[still fern]

But being a bmrlike-ish this is a script that encourages active play

[olive drift]

it might be, or the inverse

[still fern]

All of your demons are ones that want to play actively which is cool

[olive drift]

Good team are passive

idt that's the case though

[still fern]

Yeah you might just be falling into the bmrlike problem where passive good teams get stomped by agentic evil teams

[olive drift]

Its just that Typhon can control the narrative so easily

[still fern]

So the issue is how to incentivize town based on their info to be more agentic

('info' broadly construed)

[olive drift]

Lemme just go through the memory vaults

I also think the issue was

'I didn't realise how heavily i need to bagbuild'

First game was a text game

Evil won off a lot of funky conditionals since D2 or so

Sadly don't havethe grim

This was a good win. A big reason was that the acrobat was going around confirming everyone sober

[lucid vault]

what did they do to the amnesiac icon 😭😭😭

[still fern]

it's so tragic

[olive drift]

I KNOW

[still fern]

this is why official icons are better

[olive drift]

IDK WHAT HAPPENED

this game was a classic 'oh wait what was I thinking whats this bagbuilding', which only become slightly balanced after an apprentice savant travelled in

yet more proof that LoT -1 should be my default

[still fern]

having two negative outsider mod demons is based actually

[olive drift]

This was again, me being overgenerous to evil with bagbuilding, but also its a 10p Typhon game what did I expect

I did some controversial STing double saving the Moonchild to the Pacifist

Also though another thing with LoT is that they also can afford to just frame 1 side of teh line and move the whole thing downwards

[still fern]

The extra evils vatiwall is nearly finished and I am just concluding very hard that Mez and Typhon are both roles you need to be unbelievably careful with in a base 0

[olive drift]

Nuraghe was widely considered evil this game

[lucid vault]

didn't it not really matter after evil outed on final day 😭

[still fern]

But the tricky corollary is that base 0 typhon should be within bagbuilding possibility range on this script because the other demons need to sell it

[olive drift]

oh were you there?

ye maple did out

moonchild picked him

and didn't die

but good didn't have any way to tell what was the centre of the line

[still fern]

I think Town Crier going back on would be really good here

[olive drift]

also most of D3 was obsessed with solving the phantom vigor world

[lucid vault]

Wait when did TC drop yeah add that

[olive drift]

because Trixie, Sharkly and Paradox died all in 1 night

[still fern]

It dropped at some point but it's like a core CS role from my pov

[lucid vault]

Even if you sell the Drmon as a Minion, the Typhon line can still get outed if evil's unscrupulous

[olive drift]

You have a funny definition of core

[still fern]

super interesting against typhon, super interesting against vigor, normal level of interesting against yagga

[lucid vault]

ojo is core China shop right 🥹

[olive drift]

Wait did Town Crier become Alsaahir 😭

[still fern]

I think so

wait

yeah

that's the solution

just swap them back

[olive drift]

Hm

Shugenja->Town Crier

[olive drift]

So real

only the real ones remember Ojo

Oh god

I was about to say

[still fern]

in advance of inevitably rolling vigor in the upcoming game I've been thinking about what worlds non-typhon demons can sell and it definitely does feel to me like ojo would be a great fourth here but I just can't see what can be dropped (the 3 demons all work too well and the minions all work too well)

[olive drift]

"well my issue with Town Crier is that I think it can force nominations. I only want Town Crier on if there is a witch on script"

Then it hit me

There is a witch on script

[still fern]

average witch

[olive drift]

on you go Town Crier

Get that dusty bell from the antique shop

You haven't used it in a while

[still fern]

cs to me is its demon suite, its minion suite, enough roles to be bmrlike, and some tricky but strong info roles (savant, balloonist, tc)

notably, savant/balloonist/tc can all point super hard at a typhon line and distinguish its components

[olive drift]

Version 2.1

Alsaahir -> Town Crier
Time to get good team it's info back. Town Crier, you've always managed to be the 14th Townsfolk. Let's get you back on.

High Priestess (yes I know its not on 2.0 but it was on here trust) -> General
General is widely considered better here.

I mean part of me wants to lean into Town Crier being interesting by replacing Widow with Spy and finding a replacement for Savant, but that requires Plague Doctor to shift (I don't like jinxes)

[still fern]

part of why I like spy on here is the spy pd jinx 😭

[olive drift]

This is probably the happiest balance I can find for now

It's a fine jinx

Maybe in future, if it's still unbalanced, I can treat myself to one jinx on here

for now though, its widow all the way

looking back, its quite funny how little the script has changed

I only need to make 4 changes from the very starting script to get to the current one

[still fern]

...I just realized the script summary for the livetext scheduled mentions tc despite being a version without a tc

maybe just hotfix the scheduled to 2.1

[lucid vault]

I just changed it lol

It didn't when 2.0 was still on there

[still fern]

Based

lemme now roll 200 grims for 2.1 in the next two days

[turbid anchor]

Autumn??? You gave us info to work with!!!

[olive drift]

Yes

well really

I felt good were too strong

So I felt like nerfing them

[turbid anchor]

Oh.

I see

[olive drift]

High Priestess solo solved every game

And Alsaahir had a 200% winrate

actually closer to 300%

[rich oracle]

that's a high win rate

[olive drift]

yes

[turbid anchor]

Agreed

[olive drift]

its almost as high as LoT

which had a 400% winrate

[olive drift]

updated the script page

hopefully if this is streamed ever again we won't get the curse of the Fool Alsaahir Klutz games

[tiny stone]

Unfortunately it had to be changed, as it was the same as the official art.
The replacement was the playtest icon from years ago, but I agree that the previous one was nicer. 🫤

[olive drift]

So

how did it go

Looks like evil lost the livetext game.

[lucid vault]

yep, but it was close!

[olive drift]

that's good to know

[olive drift]

Something I'm thinking about is how well the Vigor can fake the other demons.

Yagg+Typhon can fake eachother's killing rate fairly easily. Yagg can create the illusion of an extra witch or assassin p well.

Vigor doesnt have any extra minion abilities or extra killpower. It has consistency but so does LoT if it keeps its team alive. Its main boon is poison.

I'll need to see if Vigor is too dissimilar to the other demons.

[shy spoke]

I thought it had shugenja now?

[olive drift]

Considered it

Then Town Crier called to me

[olive drift]

I honestly see the vision with Spy

I am beginning to like it more and more

Pros of Spy: It slows down the game. It being saved by the Paci or Tea Lady slows the game down. Gambler not dying to it slows it down. Widow poison usually hits death prevention and speeds it up, leading to stuff becoming lopsided.

Cons of Spy: This is a personal preference, and I do want discussion on this. I don't like Spy with Savant (it misregistering can make false statements true) and Spy with Balloonist (its info is already fuzzy at the best of times)

I'm fine with Spy Grandmother, Town Crier, Gambler, Tea Lady and even Pacifist

I feel like Spy Savant and Balloonist, even if you run them well as a ST, can mess with their info so much that players are going to be paranoid of it

Spy also is worse for Vigor than Widow

Still, the issue of these Minions except one speeding up the game is pretty significant for LoT games

[still fern]

It's interesting that the focus is on speed because when I roll tokens for this a lot of the games in a grim look like they'll be slow (there aren't that many townsfolk that'll speed up a vigor/widow/DA bag noticeably, for instance)

My thought on spy vs widow was that the targeted vs untargeted misinfo was the issue

[olive drift]

Widow poisoning a pacifist or Tea Lady speeds up the game

And those seem to be preferred targets

[olive drift]

That is true though

And is one of my issues with Vigor

I love that it brings something new to the table with droison

But its killpower is lower overall than the other demons

Outsiders (which is takes out) is one way to mimic more

[still fern]

Vigor has the inherent characteristic, on any script, that its counterplay to townsfolk abilities is messy as a tradeoff to its removal of counterplay to minion abilities

[olive drift]

My point is that idk if Vigor has the tools to consistently sell Yagg or Typhon

[still fern]

Typhon also messes with counterplay by just increasing minion count, but it's importantly opposite in that typhon teams who try to maximize their abilities risk losing dramatically

Yagga/Typhon is an inherently tricky combo as a consequence

Because it carves at one of Typhon's crippling weaknesses on any other script

[olive drift]

Yagg Typhon do a great job at selling each other

And Typhon also does a decent job selling Vigor

Idk how well vigor can sell typhon

[still fern]

Vigor is to some degree built to be able to fake positional demon worlds (it's a No Dashii foil)

[olive drift]

Because in a DA Widow Vigor game, its just not killing enough

[still fern]

But vigor and typhon both have the janky characteristic that towns go to them as fallback possibilities due to their world-opening natures

[olive drift]

Ye

[still fern]

Vigor is...strange. To a very real degree its difficulty killing townsfolk is a strength, because it's meant to frame the absolute hell out of people and killing your frames loses

I think we just need more typhon test games of 2.1

Because my big impression watching the yagga game was "this is legitimately very info-dense now"

[olive drift]

But ye with Spy, both Balloonist and Savant have the issue that the misreg can feel much less targeted

[still fern]

Like town had hardsolved by the end there

[olive drift]

Yea...

To be fair the yagg phrase was found

But they did narrow it down before

[still fern]

I think the current townsfolk suite is going to have a much much easier time locking down typhon lines than has historically been a concern iff they can follow the implications of their info okay

Because finding the yagga phrase and finding the typhon line work out similarly

[olive drift]

Yes. It's then a question of looking at other demons

Honestly, with the tip to take out Outsiders in a LoT game

I think we'll see a flip

It's a very simple rule of thumb that will help good have enough against Typhon

But ye

Back to Spy vs Widow

What do you mean about targeted vs untargeted

[still fern]

Widow can optimize in a way that's harder for Spy

[olive drift]

Mhm

[still fern]

If the problem you're facing is that your evil teams are optimizing too well, so to speak, Spy can deal with it

But I'm not sure this is a problem anymore in 2.1

[olive drift]

Yea

My problem is a very different angle as you've pointed out

Its speed in typhon games

Bag building had you try and balance survival and death

And usually similar minions go to similar good characters to keep that balance

But with Widow often going for protection

4/5 of these Minions can potentially speed up the game

[still fern]

Just rolled a 2.1 grim and lol tea lady placement

[olive drift]

That's another thing

Imagine

That DA

[still fern]

(I've rolled a lot of 2.1 grims but mostly not typhon)

[olive drift]

Was a spy

This happens remarkably often

The Tea lady getting eaten or is part of the line

Next to*

The line

I'd often make that puzzlemaster a widow

[still fern]

I thought of both

[olive drift]

As they do similar things

[still fern]

I didn't want to simulate widow picks though

[olive drift]

Witch is good

Yea

Godfather has also turned into a "well I don't want to make the game to fast so ehhhh Godfather"

Bc good need to make mistakes to give Godfather killz

Savant looks frameable in a pacifist-Innkeeper Typhon line

And Yagga can be sold

Vigor is ehh

[still fern]

The other reason there's no widow is that the banshee is gonna destroy that line if they proc

[olive drift]

Yea

Then you need to look at ones which include the Knight

In theory like

I think "oh good have a great shot at this"

In practice THE DA will protect themselves then get themselves tea lady confirmed

The Innkeeper gets witch cursed and nominates

And then the rest of the game is good looking for an imaginary yagg

Before screaming about the typhon line when it's too late

[shy spoke]

I think that's just a skill issue lol

Good need to consider typhon lines early

But without shugenja, that's tricky

[olive drift]

Yes

I think they'll manage

[olive drift]

I do think good looking out for Typhon lines can lead to other demons taking advantage of that which is kinda perfect

[olive drift]

when I roll LoT lines they almost always seem to be incredibly strong

but that might be because of me rolling Widow often

[olive drift]

Like imagine a Widow here. you could have situation where good don't have much info to work with at all (droisoned Savant) or ones where good have less protection than expected (droisoned Innkeeper/Pacifist). I also seem to not like putting in too many slwing characters.

Like I'd count Banshee, Innkeeper, Pacifist and Tea Lady as slowing. That's quite a lot

[still fern]

seen on app 👀

[lucid vault]

Someone's running it at Final 3 Con too

[olive drift]

NICE

[shy spoke]

I'm probably going to join the longtext queue with this fwiw

[shy spoke]

Just joined the queue! 🥳

[olive drift]

Good luck running it

LoT in text (if it happens) is quite tough to beat!

[shy spoke]

Noted, however, I will randomise the demon-type to prevent meta

As it's rly unfun to play against imo

[shy spoke]

Ty

[sick gust]

Gave +1 Thanks to @olive drift (current: #489 - 79)

[olive drift]

Yea

I was surprised when you called this one of your favourites

[shy spoke]

It really is!

[olive drift]

Bc ye in text erm

I think its better as not a longtext script

[shy spoke]

Definitely, yeah

[olive drift]

Bc both yagg and Typhon have issues there

Typhon you basically need to expect conditional dead votes

To beat it

Yagg is... well its yagg

[shy spoke]

I remember that first longtext game lol

So many wasted deadvotes

[olive drift]

Yea

[still fern]

Reading back messages from September today and stumbled upon the very first prototype for China Shop 👀

[olive drift]

Pff what

That's by burns what pfffff

Insane

[still fern]

I dunno why it's marked as that but yeah

[olive drift]

Ohhh

Ohhhh

[still fern]

But yeah it was by you

[olive drift]

No I remember

I was looking through all the LoT scripts

Including Ben's one

It's quite weird though

This script, yes I worked on it, but then I completely gave up on it and started to work on a similar script called "subtle tells"

Which then turned into China shop

This one

[still fern]

This (the day after) seems to be where cs takes shape yeah

[olive drift]

Ye

This I argue is the start, but even then yea, the first china shop with organ grinder and zealot I did recognise as the same script

I really dodged a bullet there

It really hasn't changed that much

[still fern]

It's a very distinctive evil suite

[olive drift]

Yea. With only Ojo as the secret 9th choice

[still fern]

26 character script

[olive drift]

honestly

It's nice to have a script that is close to refined tho

[shy spoke]

Grim scenarios v2.1 stream game 👀

[olive drift]

OH

[shy spoke]

Spoiler: ||One day good will win against the LoT line on this script 🙏||

||Good definitely could have won that though||

[olive drift]

||one day D:||

[shy spoke]

||Has good ever won against LoT here?||

[olive drift]

||The 1st game on stream when it won teh competition||

but ye

||sob. aaaaa||

||Typhon moment||

[shy spoke]

||This is probably the only script where the LoT has won more than once tho||

[olive drift]

||To be fair, -1 Outsider was not followed at Town's peril :(||

||yeah... I am aghast that its been weak elsewhere||

||Welp gg||

I didn't know I made the LoT homescript

[shy spoke]

I think that the extra deaths from minions, widow getting the grim and taking the most powerful TF out, and the DA allowing the Typhon to not get executed/preventing ruling out demon candidates all synergise really well together making it a super scary demon to go against.

[olive drift]

yea

[vapid escarp]

You really did lol

[olive drift]

The only script where it has above a 20% winrate

[vapid escarp]

Are there other scripts in which it doesn't piss itself and die immediately

[still fern]

No

This is literally just the one

[olive drift]

awww

[still fern]

It "has" won on witch hunt

I'm not sure above 20% of the time though

[olive drift]

hearing positive stuff about it is lovely

but

[still fern]

I think much of why it's so evilsided here is that people do all the stuff you need to do for typhon to not instantly eat shit on every single other script and then town loses because there are 3 outsiders

Like it is so different here to usual

[lucid vault]

yeah but that was three goblin monte

idk if that counts

[olive drift]

3 Goblin Monte!1

[still fern]

I think it's won games that weren't 3 goblin monte

[lucid vault]

has it now?

[still fern]

Kenoboi can answer but supposedly it has like a 50% winrate if town doesn't build typhon worlds (so like, 20-25%) and loses every time if they do except 3 goblin monte

[olive drift]

3 goblin monte is so funny

[lucid vault]

iirc good won the livetext game

oh no it was a damsel guess

[still fern]

no, dire the incredibly outed damsel from d2 onwards eventually got guessed when evil decided they'd rather win than keep laughing about how he was the damsel

(in fairness: it was super funny)

[lucid vault]

why the fuck did i keep him alive again??

i would've had a good reason

also just hit me that this is china shop

[still fern]

I think the damsel guess was much of evil's wincon

[lucid vault]

we should move

[still fern]

also it was SUPER funny

[olive drift]

pff

it's fine. all is welcome

but if u wanna talk about it then sure

we can go to witch hunt

[quick pier]

one was a klutz pick lol

[olive drift]

if the stream game did look like good had a chance

then I'm willing to let it have a chance

[still fern]

I only watched a bit of it but it definitely seemed like they did

[olive drift]

I have done a lot for good team already

[still fern]

two minions died pretty early

[olive drift]

one day LoT will lose

one day

[shy spoke]

Don't think we didn't see the edit 🤣

[olive drift]

ye

[shy spoke]

Lol

[olive drift]

i mean

one day LOT will win

that day is today

[shy spoke]

True

[olive drift]

also tho

minions can just kinda... goof off

on LoT

goof off and still get great results

alas

the ST put 3 Outsiders in the bag at the start of the game

It was doomed from the start

[still fern]

Yeah the outsider thing is super unintuitive

You need to do that on most typhon scripts

You really don't here

[olive drift]

give the town the extra general they need it 😭

[still fern]

If you bagbuild CS like a normal typhon script it's a big problem for town

[olive drift]

yee

[still fern]

The game I specced on the app was also a typhon game that evil won but really could've lost

[olive drift]

it always feels like that huh

Let's see

[still fern]

The PM immediately guessed correctly

[shy spoke]

LoT doesn't seem to steamroll often here

[still fern]

Socially trusted the demon so just never outed it

[shy spoke]

But they do win

[olive drift]

ye they don't seem to steamroll anymore

[still fern]

The demon player's post-game summary was basically "wow that was terrifying I was constantly sure I was going to lose"

[olive drift]

but Typhon can feel like its steamrolling because of the final votes

It does really feel like if STs do start removing Outsiders rather than adding them

That will literally be the tipping point between an evil loss and win

still

as much as I like talking about it

Currently, with statistics

[still fern]

How do the other demons go? I've seen/heard of two yagga games recently that were both won by good, and the only vigor game I know of is the one you tracked where good won (no DA though lol)

[olive drift]

1 Typhon loss.
1, 2, 3, 4, 5 Typhon wins reported

I've seen a Yagga game on livetext won by evil, and played a Yagga game on an older version of the script won by evil

[still fern]

(yagga games being the livetext that town won on 5 + an app game I didn't see but that was described to me where town won in f3)

[olive drift]

Haven't seen any more DA games

lol

I mean no more VIGOR games

[still fern]

lmao

[shy spoke]

This too

[still fern]

cs is finally going to be the script where no one can try meta demon type for me because they'll be perfectly split between metaing "typhon because I want to stresstest it", "yagga because I openly want to run more ST-dictated-kills demons", and "vigor because it's vati lmao"

[olive drift]

hmm. so 3 yagg wins

runit

I'll play it

[still fern]

I need to make another app scheduled

Not sure when for though

[olive drift]

China shop is a nice looking script

and it even plays well

it creates the amazing illusion that good has a chance in typhon games

truly spectacular

[shy spoke]

No jinxes is maybe the main contributor

[olive drift]

yee

[shy spoke]

Which is good

[olive drift]

I do aim for jinxless

sometimes I have to

but ye... no everything works as intended and there are no extra rules

now there are some weird unintuitive rules

like don't daykill the banshee with yaggababble lol

also though

considering that the script was run by a SToryteller who added an Outsider

And does look a bit death high compared to survival

It's great it lead to a game which felt close

(paci vs Tinker+Plague Doctor+Gambler)

[shy spoke]

Same, but when you have characters like marionette on script, it gets rly difficult 😭

[lucid vault]

Typhon wanting to remove Outsiders from the bag on this script is pretty unintuitive

so I get why most people don't do it

I wouldn't if I was looking at this script for the first time and didn't know how busted LoT was

[olive drift]

yee

look i'm the script creator and i didnt even realise that might be the best option until like a week ago

[lilac raven]

This game was hilarious

[shy spoke]

1715 messages in this post 👀

[olive drift]

i'm a yapper

[shy spoke]

Currently running signups for this in longtext #1342647556974313512 message
If you like this script, come join!

(Also feel free to kibitz if you want to watch the chaos unfold from the sidelines)

[olive drift]

well

Just watched an online game

on app

[shy spoke]

How did it go?

[olive drift]

well apparently vigor can win

[shy spoke]

Which minions (if any) were killed?

[olive drift]

didn't see

[shy spoke]

Ok

[olive drift]

Muzu died in the day

Under a PM claim

I think the Assassin was vigor killed

I was convinced it was a LoT game

for a while the grim looked like this

but ye the witch got a couple of kills off

still

I guess evil are still having a really good time on this script 😭

[shy spoke]

I think leaving a huge row of people alive is just a good play tbh

I don't think that makes the script evil-sided

[olive drift]

all the good players of course knew that it wasn't a typhon line

and good were likely to win

if the gambler didn't gamble themselves as the banshee

but the Gambler was being very framed

so felt removing themselves as a demon candidate was the best way to go

[shy spoke]

Did they do that in final 4?

[olive drift]

i believe so

[shy spoke]

Ouch

[olive drift]

script is brutal what can i say

but also that may have not been the best play

shrug. we'll see in more testing

Evil are still doing quite damn well here

but the strong 'problem' characters of like Devil's Advocate, Lord of Typhon and Widow weren't even on here

The balloonist got useful info I think

The Amne ability was getting all players with reminder tokens which was difficult to bluff

Good had 2 grandmothers

And a Savant. And a Town Crier with many nos

Just wait and see

tbf I had a similar game STing BMR and I do think this script is swingy, but maybe not unbalanced

[olive drift]

EEE I'm so excited for the longtext game

we have such a stacked kibitz

and i get a taste of my own medicine

But now this game has me thinking

What is the _overall evil winrate here :P _

Lord of Typhon 5 W / 1 L
Yaggababble 3 W/ 2 L
Vigor 1 W/1 L

Overall, 8 Wins, 4 losses

Evil at a solid 66% winrate here

To be fair, I think good team has steadily been made stronger and stronger here

[still fern]

Also within pretty normal bounds for a custom with 12 recorded playtests

[olive drift]

yea

[still fern]

I think cc was as or slightly more evilsided at 12 plays and is steadily evening to approach 50-50

[olive drift]

I think its also that players are getting used to Lord of Typhon

I do think Vigor is a weaker demon here but in 13+ games i can see how it can ✨own✨

and it being a source of droison on a script with not much evil droison gives it a niche

[still fern]

Vigor is always [sharp intake of breath through teeth] high-variance

[olive drift]

[China Shop Demon] is always [sharp intake of breath throuh teeth] high-variance

A big upside of China shop is that the demons are wacky and weird

So now that its got out there, it seems that its being run from time to time by streamers

because its a Lord of Typhon, Yaggababble Vigormortis script

Yaggababble is so fun

[still fern]

Yagga is very much a Content Demon

[olive drift]

yea

it is

And ye... vigor is pretty common as a demon

LoT though...

But ye this game has definitely convinced me that Vigormortis+Lord of Typhon is really cool

Because with how the kills were going that game, the Vig did frame a Typhon line at least from an Outside perspective really well

unlike previous version tho the town crier could actually disprove the LoT

[shy spoke]

Remember it is longtext btw

Which is always slightly good-sided

[olive drift]

Ye ik

[quick pier]

why is longtext good sided

[sand mulch]

days are 24 hours long

so you can work through everything

[quick pier]

god longtext is so weird

[shy spoke]

Lots of time

[olive drift]

I'm also going to be run China Shop in scheduled on Saturday

[still fern]

convenience link: #event-listings message

[still fern]

This script is getting pretty popular on the app 👀

I haven't been able to catch every game of it because there's been quite a few

But there's fairly often a lobby running it rn in this timezone bloc

[lucid vault]

and they're still adding outsiders to Typhon games aren't they

[still fern]

Currently yes because you have to on every single other script or evil dies instantly

I mention that the intent is not to do this when I see it so given it's mostly the same couple people running it I imagine it'll go down at some point

There's a 16p game rn actually (I caught part of it and will give my thoughts when the game ends)

[olive drift]

please do

omg

i am catching the grim reveal

[still fern]

||as soon as you see how the tokens land you're gonna KNOW what I saw||

[olive drift]

||jesus||

[still fern]

I KNOW RIGHT

typhon has a real goodsided script presence 😛

[olive drift]

||god||

||well I guess thats good WR going up a bit... but it is on vigor||

||but with a set up like that...||

[still fern]

The minions also didn't really die which doesn't help especially when the tokens fall in a damn typhon line

[olive drift]

yee

potentially there was a better way to play that

[still fern]

Meanwhile the game I caught yesterday was a typhon game with a DA and an apprentice DA

[olive drift]

WEHAT

[still fern]

it's an unintuitive script to setup

[olive drift]

ye

[fierce kestrel]

Oh god

[olive drift]

i wonder who won

[still fern]

a mystery for the ages

[olive drift]

the typhon double DA game

[fierce kestrel]

[olive drift]

tbf even a pukka would win with a double DA

(pukka is a great demon don't @ me)

ok

Right so currently if I take those... games together

LoT 6 W / 2 L
Yaggababble 3 W/ 2 L
Vigor 1 W / 2 L

hm

hopefully all the demons will balance out

....

still that has brought the total WR down

but also...

clearly players are having fun with it if its being played over and over

that's nice

[still fern]

anyway I think they're about to run it again if you want to pop back in the lobby

[olive drift]

town crier info being stronk

ye

[still fern]

and there's a seat open 👀

[olive drift]

hm

i'll have a go

[vapid escarp]

I like how i don't even need to see the grim to know what you're referring to

[vapid escarp]

Or you could say it lol

[still fern]

In fairness, the demon was at the end of the line

[vapid escarp]

Because there's a missing minion 😎

Oh wait 16p nvm

I forgot not all app games are 12p

[still fern]

Most aren't

It's livevoice that's obsessed with 12p

App games are 8p or 18p

[vapid escarp]

YouTube videos are my main experience w the app

[still fern]

Mostly 18p actually lmao

[vapid escarp]

Which are rarely not 12p

[still fern]

I almost ran 19p snv at 3am once

[lucid vault]

so it's not just irl that has 19p games

[vapid escarp]

Guess so

[quick pier]

i’ve ran 20p

it was TB tho godbless

[lucid vault]

I've run 21p

(it ended d2)

[quick pier]

wait how

isn’t max 20

[vapid escarp]

If you're a coward it is

[olive drift]

Well I was part of the second typhon loss

0 Outisder game

Banshee is brutal

I love it

But ye... game was pretty obviously me Typhon socially for a while

It's just with the power of lifts and bullshit I went past my sell by date

But ye... everyone being Townsfolk really does make the game difficult for a budding Lord of Typhon

But ye... game did drag by the end, but I think it was anyone's game really

[still fern]

I was worried for a bit about that thief/typhon hypersynergy

Good to know it worked out

(I watched roughly the first half)

[olive drift]

yee

but ye that banshee... its such an annoying thing to get rid of

It didn't help that all our Witch curses were on tea lady neighbours

in short though... this game even felt quite good sided

good can pack a punch once you put more townsfolk in

[olive drift]

on an unrelated note

something that does bug me a little bit is how much overlap plague doctor and moonchild have

you have moonchild and horrible 20x worse Moonchild which might also be a sweetheart, or Devil's Advocate

Plague Doctor is quite core for now to give non-Typhon demons more cover

I do think though part of Lord of Typhon's monsterous winrate here is just... players not being used to evil having a lot of vote power

that game where I almost won as Lord of Typhon could have easily been a dead loss if players had 5 votes on me rather than 4

I think once players get used to that, its winrate will plummet to more reasonable levels

And maybe some of my changes will turn out to be an overcorrection. We'll see though. I'm happy with the script so far, and we'll see how the winrate will go over the next couple of games

6/15 = 40% good winrate, 60% evil winrate. That already seems within the realms of reason.

[olive drift]

'dead loss' as in, the game could have ended about 2 days earlier than it did

[vapid escarp]

p=30%

Those numbers are nothing to be worried about

Not even close

[olive drift]

yeee

i am not worried about it

'within the realms of reason'

Hopefully I can get a couple more games going to really test this script

[vapid escarp]

(for reference, 10% is "worry but only a little", 5% is "worry", 2% or less is "fix your script immediately")

[olive drift]

yee

but also its useful to look at each demon to see if they are all similarly winnable

the only way i can know where the true balance is is this being played a lot tho

[vapid escarp]

Right

[olive drift]

There also was a stream The Grimoire game with 1.0 which I didnt count

Which was a yagg win

But ye good have received so many buffs that v1.0 and v2.1 are very different beasts

[olive drift]

China Shop game in 1 h 30 minutes in scheudled!

[olive drift]

Running it now!

Or at least

trying to get players!

[olive drift]

no game

oh well

[still fern]

caught about half, seemed pretty close

[olive drift]

another Typhon win for the ages

[still fern]

town got much of the world but thought the DA was a non-DA minion (and by extension slept on 4)

people definitely like the script (this lobby has a lot of major recurring app players and so do several of the others I've seen running it)

and there are consistently more people running it

[olive drift]

yayy

i love that people are enjoying the script though!!!

[wraith flume]

the BOTC players yearn for BMR-likes

(i know this isnt a BMR-like but its like close enough)

[olive drift]

they ask and they shall receive

[lucid vault]

It's a script with multideath and execution survival, it's a BMRlike in my book

[vapid escarp]

Oh that's the alignment chart we need to make

Bmrlikes

[olive drift]

where would this land

[lucid vault]

Probably hardline traditionalist tbh

I have the chart in my head but am missing one spot

hi vati

[still fern]

hi axo

I recall kenoboi being mildly skeptical when I characterized cs as a bmrlike so maybe you'll have to duel

anyway I'm trying to roll 1 minion cs grims to see how viable it'd be to run it livetext soon

can't wait to try figure out which china shop demon is least dysfunctional at 7p

[lucid vault]

ok china shop isn't on the chart

there are better examples for each section

@still fern

[still fern]

💯

[lucid vault]

I couldn't think of something for the bottom left until I remembered Back to Basics, which doesn't actually fit as well as I'd like but it works

also @vapid escarp you wanted this chart too

[fierce kestrel]

Peak 🔥

[olive drift]

It is kinda funny how Blossoms of Pomegranate is considered Multideath neutral while Cannons Rip the Sky is multideath purist when they both have 8 sources of extra death

I guess cannons has 9 if you count Lycan

[lucid vault]

pomegranate:
+: grandma gambler gossip tinker mc gf assassin shab
-: sailor ik exo TL goon zombuul

cannons:
+: gambler gossip tinker mc gf assassin shab ojo
-: sailor ik lycan (prof, kinda) tl goon

huh they are exactly the same

[olive drift]

Cannons does have the sneaky extra one that is Boffin Gossip now that I look at it

but ye they probably are both hardline tradiotionalists

[lucid vault]

boffin is a point in both columns

because boffin IK and boffin Lycan both serve as prevention while boffin gossip serves as accel

[olive drift]

Sure but it is like... a source of extra death or protection

It is something to consider

[lucid vault]

i am counting boffin as neither 😇

[olive drift]

I think it can be counted as both

[fierce kestrel]

I count as both 😈

[olive drift]

ye

Boffin is like

10 different minions really

On the right type of script

So of course some variations speed up games and others slow it down

China Shop has 10 ways to get extra night deaths (11 if you count witch)

7 ways to slow down games.

Which is kinda insane

I do count some of these thinsg twice

Like Plague Doctor, Amnesiac and Philo are counted twice here.

I didn't quite realise how many dials there are

[quick pier]

i would argue BMR-likes are more than just multikill and survival execution

but those are definitely important parts

and also then again the whole “B3-like” concept is a bit scuffed as it is, since no script can replicate feel the given B3 exactly

[olive drift]

the demon that causes extra deaths on here though is also strange because of how they are ST chosen

[quick pier]

I mean there are only like 4.5 multikill demons in the game (no legion doesn’t count)

[olive drift]

po, yagga, shabaloth, ojo, alhadikhia

fair

[quick pier]

ojo i count as .5

but yeah

[olive drift]

ye i was wondering if you count ojo or alhad as .5

alhad is deffo multikill but is loud enough to not add to the BMR death puzzle that much

Ojo is a multikill demon but isn't treated as such

[quick pier]

mhm

wait where’s the most recent version of this script

[olive drift]

i can repost it but if you go to the top you'll see a link down to the message

but ye this is the most current version

[quick pier]

ty

[olive drift]

any reason 👀

[quick pier]

who knows

i mostly just forgot the outsider suite and wanted to examine it

[olive drift]

yeee

The Outsider suite is funny

You have Moonchild and then their OH GOD WAIT NO NO NO sibling that is the Plague Doctor

[lucid vault]

I think all Godfather scripts can have one "please don't kill me" outsider

as a treat

[olive drift]

i know its just their use cases do kinda overlap

[olive drift]

Yagga win

LoT 7W / 2 L
Yaggababble 4W / 2 L
Vigor 1 W /2 L

Evil Winrate: 66%

Still need more data of course

evil are... stronk

[rich oracle]

poor vigor

[olive drift]

yeah

[rich oracle]

also wow LoT is popular on this script