Paying rent for Apartments

[mild hemlock]

Currently, credits/crows can be accumulated pretty quickly for a detective who knows what he is doing, but there isn't too much use for it, once you get an apartment setup the way you want it.

I think as an city creation option or higher difficulty feature, it would be nice/challenging that players need to pay a weekly rent for their apartment, to help simulate the need to "Get the landlords off their back", so to speak, as well as give currency some more importance.

So in functionality:

1. Each apartment type could have a set value, based off of size and location, as well as rent being increased by having more expensive walls, floors and appliances installed. (because I`m pretty sure corrupt landlords would increase prices if given the chance, based off the in-game tenant contracts)
2. At the end of each week, payment is deducted automatically.
3. If there isn`t enough cash to pay the rent, Appliances and items are "repossessed"(aka sold), based off most expensive to cheapest.
4. And if there isn't enough money from repossessing items in the apartment, the player loses the apartment.

I would love to roleplay as the hard-boiled detective who has to take on questionable jobs, in order to keep a roof over his head and a bottle in his hand.

It would probably work something like this:
apartmentBaseValue * totalWorthOfItems = Weekly rent.
ex:
` tutorial poor house has a baseValue of 0, so rent would always be free
normal sized 2 room apartment would have a baseValue of 0.8, and a large high-rise building would have a baseValue of 1.2

apartmentBaseValue = 0.8
totalWorthOfItems = CalculateFurnitureValue() // we have about $5000 worth of fancy walls, floors and furniture in the apartment
apartmentBaseValue * totalWorthOfItems = $4000. `

So we have 7 days to make that much money or else the landlord will start repossessing our stuff. (which will lower our rent as a side-effect).

[night gust]

To be fair, the prices for apartments feel like this should be the monthly price of the lease, and definitely not a purchase price.

[wary silo]

Double rent as the security deposit (that does nothing and is not returned because capitalism)

[zenith spindle]

Would be a great motivator for sure. For my playing style I'd want it to be more of a token amount to keep me on my toes. I hate the idea of having to rush cases or spam the easiest case type just to stay afloat.

[wary silo]

Luckily it's a self-regulating system. If you want a lower, less pressing rent payment, you just get a cheaper apartment. It's choosing your own difficulty

[zenith spindle]

Meh, disagree. I don't think I should be forbidden forever from having a big apartment just because I don't like to play the game in an "optimal" (ie boring) fashion.

I get enough of that in real life 🙂

[tiny island]

So it could be that people own apartments and not rent them, which is a thing in bigger cities. But also, company owners I think are the highest earners in the game and only make 200k. A upper-mid floor apartment is 30k, so that definitely wouldn't be a monthly rent for it. That aside, rent should be a thing.

[night gust]

Eh rent would suit more the corporate hellscape like... space is at a premium and a lowly detective would actually own real estate?

[tiny island]

Yeah, I'm just saying that the prices you purchase and apartment for are not rental prices

Although, if you asked me how rent should work, I'd say it should be done by the day for game balance, and considering how jobs pay now, it'd be a few thousand every day. So at that point, it'd suggest that a year isn't a year real-time and the cost of everything as current probably makes sense with that timescale

[wary silo]

How about rent to own

You decide to take on the challenge of a nice apartment. Either you save up to buy it outright or you pay X a week until it's paid off. That way it's not a forever commitment, but it's still a challenge that offers different ways to tackle

[night gust]

in stories the average PI spends most of the year at the bottom of a bourbon bottle.

a well paid case might be something that happens a couple times a year, at best 😄

so yeah game time compression.

[gusty silo]

I thought about this too with rent when playing. You get kicked out of your apartment in dead of the night because you didn't pay your rent. It would give money jobs like everyone said more purpose and not just for the sake of money.

[gusty silo]

could depend on the apartment if you need to pay daily or some kind of agreement with the manager how the player would want to pay. Daily would be in smaller amount to pay while weekly are bigger.

[dry stirrup]

That said, I do kind of like the aesthetic of rent-free apartments even though Dead of Night contradicts it. My favorite corporate dystopia stories have little, beautiful things that make you briefly consider whether the dystopia is worse than the real world. Usually the answer is yes but I like being made to think about it. To consider whether I'd prefer to live in that world with all of its problems compared to this one.

In practice though, has anyone had a game go on for an entire month that rent would even come up as an issue?

[fringe onyx]

Other npcs pay rent, you can check bank statements to get a feel for what an apartment is worth. I wouldn't mind paying rent because the game needs money sinks but I'd rather have something where I feel actively good about spending my crows

Overall tho, I think its a good idea and suggestion

[dry stirrup]

Yeah, if you know what you're doing you'll have tens of thousands of crows within days

[tiny island]

Yeah, totally forgot about rent deductions on bank statements

[latent swan]

maybe a difficulty slider of how much rent is due (as a percentage) and also perhaps an on/off function much like the other games settings toggles

[static wyvern]

Fixed rent rate depending on game difficulty and the value of the apartment. Keep it realistic, we are not going to be paying 30k for rent.

Make paying weekly, if you don't get at least 4k in an entire week in-game... what are you even doing, stalking your neighbors?

If by chance you miss a payment, you will get a visit from the landlord asking you to get out and he locks the door, if you don't get out he calls the cops. No worries though, all you have to do is get the money and talk to him again to get back into your apartment, all the furniture will stay saved as well.

[mystic coral]

If by chance you miss a payment, you will get a visit from the landlord asking you to get out and he locks the door, if you don't get out he calls the cops. No worries though, all you have to do is get the money and talk to him again to get back into your apartment, all the furniture will stay saved as well.
This might be a bit too forgiving(for me atleast), especially if this is an indefinite state until you repay. Maybe for the first couple days sure, but IMO your furniture and storage should start being sold soon, and if there are none left, then you are evicted and maybe you lose social credit score for not being able to pay rent.

If the player is paying attention to his money, he shouldn't have put himself in this situation. Should be renting with some extra savings just incase, and if the rent is too damn high, then he should have moved earlier.

[storm stirrup]

I'd like this as long as there's a way to buy a space legit. Like if I'm rich enough, I'd like to buy a place so I have a base that requires no upkeep.

[fringe onyx]

I don't feel like jobs are being added to the pool in my save. Most of my diners and other places with job boards have less than half the slots for jobs filled now. Do more jobs spawn in? I'm rich but I'd be hard pressed to make weekly payments if jobs just quit showing up

[storm stirrup]

I think they do....I operated out of a diner for a couple murders and the job listings went from like....3 postings to 9 to 4 up to 5 and back down to 2. It fluctuated, it felt like

[static wyvern]

That's way too harsh of a punishment for paying rent in a detective game. Your stuff could be transferred to your storage so when you get a new place you retain your furniture. People (like me) spend a good amount of money decorating, the whole game will turn into earning money back to earn my furniture back, and get a new place, in the case of missing payment.

[mystic coral]

Property taxes, utilities, repairs and others are still a thing. Ownership does not mean no upkeep, and especially in a corporate dystopia, its reasonable to think there will always be systems to suck you dry.

[mystic coral]

Assuming case difficulty and payouts stay around the same, and rent is about 1.5-2 cases worth on average(kind of irrelevant since as the player you can choose what you're renting for how much), then keeping up should not be so difficult. And if you're renting while putting yourself in a position where you can't pay, then that's a mistake.

If the player knows how much the weekly cost is, and how much they have in the bank, then I don't see how this situation can't be avoided.

An indefinite hold on your apartment and furniture/storage by itself doesn't seem like enough of an incentive to be able to pay. Perhaps if there were social credit penalties, accumulating interest, and/or something else, maybe then.

[static wyvern]

You are not accounting for the other money sinks that might come to the game + the ones already in the game. We are not playing to solely pay for rent, after all. I, personally, would like rent to be a major money sink, yes, but I do not want to be playing a chicken game where I feel like renting apartments is a huge chore, the game isn't about that, after all.

[mystic coral]

Personally, while I feel that rent would go a long way to solve this money sink issue, there needs to be more. What else is there in this game to put money pressure on you? 10c for food and drink? Handcuffs that are automatic profit?

Even if rent was 2 cases a week, it wouldn't come very close to actually bringing an economical challenge to the game.

[dry stirrup]

Do remember it's meant to be a game and not just a punishing dystopia simulation

[storm stirrup]

Right but I'm not focused on heavy heavy realism here. It's more like...pay through the nose for the QoL of not having to focus on the rental aspect of the game

[mystic coral]

I understand that. I definitely value practical gameplay over heavy immersion/realism and the inconveniences it can bring

[storm stirrup]

But for all those inconveniences....a toggle. Because customizing your game settings is such a great thing to be able to do

[mystic coral]

But I don't think 1.5-2 medium payout cases a week (which IMO is a reasonable starting point for rent) will bring that much pressure to the player either.

[storm stirrup]

Axing the one size fits all

[static wyvern]

You have to look at other popular suggestions here, which are usually added to early access games. If they listen to the community, making money illegally will not be as easy anymore, hopefully, bribes might be a thing, other money sinks might be added.

Point is, for such a minor part of the game, it shouldn't affect the overall game if it wasn't interacted with properly.

[mystic coral]

But when it comes to discussing a specific suggestion, I don't think it's right to discuss it while assuming other suggestions will be a thing. I'm approaching this Rent idea as if it would be added to the game right now.

If there were more impactful money sinks, less ways to make easy money(like diamonds), then obviously my stance on this would be different.

I understand what you're saying though.

[dry stirrup]

I think we should go back to questioning our base assumptions here -- why are money sinks important in the first place? It's not an MMO economy.

[fringe onyx]

I don't understand the point of discussing this suggestion in a vacuum, other features will be added

[fringe onyx]

The player earns money and wants something to do with it

[mystic coral]

If stuff like diamonds, and cases completed per hour get nerfed(hopefully by nerfing quick and violent playstyles), then yeah.

[dry stirrup]

Having money and nothing to spend it on doesn't feel great because it effectively removes it as a mechanic. That's where we start.

[mystic coral]

Assuming economical difficulty will be a setting the player gets to choose (like the damage difficulty), then money sinks will make the gameplay loop a lot more satisfying for a lot of people. RN you can pretty much make all the money you'll need in a playthrough in your first hour.

[dry stirrup]

Honestly, I think apartment decorating should be incredibly more expensive than it is.

I shouldn't be able to change 20 walls with just one quick arrest job.

[mystic coral]

That would go a long way too. It would feel like much more of an accomplishment when you fully furnish your place.

[static wyvern]

They either up the prices of the things we buy, or nerf the amount of money we get.

[dry stirrup]

Though at some point I feel money DOES need to effectively vanish as a mechanic because... well, you've become one of the Echelon. You're a wealthy person now, living above the pollution.

And if it feels bad/unsatisfying, that can be part of the overall theme. Yeah, money doesn't make you happy.

[storm stirrup]

Money balance comes later, this idea is paying rent and it's a cool one for immersion

[mystic coral]

There are many ways they could rebalance the economy. Rent is probably the easiest to implement though since they won't have to adjust the values for everything in the game.

I agree with adjusting payouts, and raising cost of food and items/utility/equipment.

Adding costs to Sync installations/removal, and maybe even maintenance costs on your syncs.

[dry stirrup]

Getting back on topic -- I'd like it very much if the player could advance on their rent if it is implemented as a mechanic. Buy a month, two months... three months. Buy a year. You're not going to play that long for sure but what if...

It effectively works out the same way as having zero rent but the player might feel the compulsive need to throw money at it.

[static wyvern]

That would just take out the fun of it, or the "immersion" part of it. You are effectively just buying the apartment at this point.

[mystic coral]

It's rent, it's a money sink, and there's still a time limit. If rent is reasonably challenging to maintain, then I don't think people will usually have the resources to put up 2 months in advance(assuming weekly). Or even want to if they could to keep their options open.

Hard to say without knowing how much the rent would be though

Right now 2 months seems like a really long time in-game, but that's also a product of how little you need to sleep. If sleeping was more necessary, 1 month in-game might not seem like a long time at all.

And what might seem like easy rent right now could become very difficult if the player needed to sleep more.
And if I may go back to the point of not "discussing things in a vacuum", it becomes a slippery slope when we try to consider all these other suggestions and possibilities when discussing something like this. Which is why I believe we should try to approach these ideas with the current mechanics in mind. Otherwise, things like sleep, other money-sinks, and potentially thousands of other possibilities that everyone sees differently can easily just hold-up any discussions.

[gusty silo]

oooh I like that idea, either you pay daily, weekly, or purchase in advance for X amount of time with minimum of 1 months time.

[dry stirrup]

I'm the kind of compulsive person to piss away 3/4 of my crows on an apartment I absolutely won't have the hundreds of hours of gametime to actually get my money's worth on.

[mild hemlock]

It wouldnt make much sense to buy apartments or make downpayments, because you would just return to the same problem as we have now.

I do like the idea of having to talk to the landlord though. Finally put a face to the person who seems to own half the city.

But again, I think it should be a togglable option made on city creation. Some people want to feel immersed in the world, while others just wanna solve cases without worrying. I hope they implement it in the future, though.

[fringe onyx]

You can already hunt down and put a bloodhound tracker on the landlord if you want to, that's not oddly specific you're oddly specific

[mild hemlock]

I can beat up the landlord and then throw my money at him. 😆

[fringe onyx]

The landlord in my world worked 24 hours in her apartment and never had a day off so her address book only had two people in it and she was a serious alcoholic. Kinda depressing for the person making 1,000,000 credits per annum

[mild hemlock]

Goes to show that money won`t buy happiness.

[alpine saffron]

While i agree that there should be more money sinks and rent seems like a great way of doing this, i don't think it's going to be very impactful in the long run. Time moves so slowly in this game, i've not yet managed to spend a full month in a city before reaching the retirement goal. So it would have to be maybe weekly rent or something? Monthly rent would effectively be ignorable or maybe something you'd have to pay a single time in a playthrough.

[whole dirge]

If we're considering time compression, we can reduce the number of days per month to, say, 7

Every week would require rent payment

One would have to be working very efficiently to keep up on penthouse rent (at worst) and extra to furnish etc, but it sounds possible

On the other hand, I feel like some tuning needs to be done to extend the "just-making-ends-meet" stage of the game, which I feel is pretty vital to noir fiction

Perhaps starting the player in debt?

[night gust]

Isn't the rent due "daily" in the tutorial?

[alpine saffron]

Oh, is it? That could work probably since days are so long, hmm. Also explains why the hell the landlord's "salary" is so damn high 😂

[late topaz]

Honestly I feel like that would end up feeling like an annoying chore more than an interesting gameplay driver. I'd definitely like more things to interact with in the world via money, but I feel like giving me rent in a video game is a bit too close to real life to be fun 😅

I can just imagine thinking I have enough money for something and then on my way there, my account gets drained and I'm irritated

[wary silo]

Here's an idea. Rent that you can either pay or do jobs for your landlord to cover

Oooor you can buy the apartment outright

[wise otter]

i'd like it to be a slider

i don't play optimally, but in-game time is like 158 irl minutes per day, basically every case is a huge payout

if i have an entire week it may as well not exist

only 'problem' would be the apartments that cost 33k~, i can't do that in a day probably and it wouldn't be fun in a week

[night gust]

Even better, make it so you have to go see your landlord for the payments 😛

[wise otter]

i am ok with that if i am allowed to pay several times in advance

[pseudo echo]

rent or buy, more options is better.
i guess some would like to have that as a money sink, but i prefer owning the house instead of paying rent.

[wise otter]

maybe upper district houses would be fine to own

ownin the actual small apartment would be weird imo

unless we buy the whole building

which, i would do

[night gust]

No-fee homeownership, is such a videogame trope.

[pseudo echo]

its... realistic... maybe tax it in other ways. (rent is for chumps)

[mild hemlock]

That is a good point.
It would make sense story wise for it to be daily, but that would turn it into a bit of a grind-fest, I think. Players would focus each day on just getting enough money to beat the 24 hour clock.

And even though Weekly is technically the same thing, just more stretched out, I think it would (at least sublimely) make users feel like they have more breathing room, since they would only have to worry about making payment on Sunday at 0800, instead of every day at 0800.

Of course, I`m just splitting hairs here, since it is still essentially the same thing.

It could probably be adjusted in the options menu via a slider (0-7 days *0 means no rent)
or a simple multiple choice (no rent, daily, weekly, monthly, etc) option on city creation.

[willow fossil]

good idea

[pseudo echo]

slider option is the best option for people who want to grind and those who dont want to be bothered by "rent".
best leave it in options to turn on/off at any time.
personaly i like my little 1 room basement lair and i dont wanna think about that sort of stuff while i explore the city

[night gust]

In a way that's part of the detective grindset, being broke, having to decide what tools you bring, not being sure when your next paycheck is coming. With the right balancing, i think it would work.

TBH Syncdiscs should be a lot more valuable, do you shove this one into you? or do you pay the bills?

I do like the tutorial mission's idea that if you're dead broke, there is always the shelter.

If having an office is made a more central aspect in the future, being able to at least receive mail at the homeless shelter would be an option.

[willow fossil]

yeah with main job like working in one of bussiness or do jobs

[zenith spindle]

I do think a "rent difficulty" slider is a good option. My ideal is a super easy weekly rent, enough that I have to complete a few small cases a week but still have plenty of time to save up $ or just fuck around. All I really want is to get rid of the feeling that I could sit in my luxury apartment and stare out the window for 20 years and never worry about losing it.

[night gust]

When you get evicted, they sell your furnitures to pay the debt~

and the rest goes into your furniture "void storage"

[mild hemlock]

That or it sells furniture to pay the debt, and only kicks you out if you don`t have enough furniture/assets to sell.

[gusty silo]

or get a notice before they possess your belongings

[obsidian frigate]

I stopped playing Lord of the Rings Online ages ago, but when I logged in a while back, as expected my house was repossessed because I wasn't paying the monthly fee, and all my stuff's in escroe. If I buy a new house, I'd get all my stuff back to put up in the new place.
No reason this game can't do the same.

[velvet seal]

I think this is a good idea. After all, you get evicted after the tutorial case for not paying the rent. It should definetly be an optional feature though, just a difficulty modifier for those looking for an extra challenge or a little more immersion.

[wise otter]

i feel like it should be in the base game but with the same toggle all the debuffs have

[frigid yew]

it would make more sense this, because i am keeping crowns for nothing, i feel the money ingame once you bought a kevlar and your abton is useless