#Consequences.

361 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

hollow frigate
#

This involves everything from the rampant crime the player is able to get away with to beating people up and them just not caring and anything else that could have something reasonable.

For Crime : The obvious change is your fines(if spotted) should not go away once leaving a building. An addition that would be fantastic naturally is the AI trying to call the enforcers if they spot you or if you get away with spotted crimes and they report you.

I'd love to see a system where the fines the player gains would gather attention from the enforcers, with them being able to spot you in the streets to maybe even trying to man-hunt you and staking out your apartment if you're being an especially big trouble maker. Being arrested by an enforcer would entail a time skip similar to normal pass-out that scales based off the fines you have with a maximum to how long you'd be stuck, maybe even a bail option.

This goes with another suggestion concerning assaulting people or being caught in general : NPCs will change their disposition to you depending on what you've done to them and for them. Obviously being caught sneaking in someone's home is bad, maybe you could get away with a sorry as long as you can prove it was you just doing an investigation but if you end up in combat or chasing them and knocking them out? I doubt they'd ever have a good opinion of you after that, meaning it'd be harder to get information out of them if at all.

Consequences don't have to be entirely negative either, despite how ominous the word sounds or it's typical use. We could get positives like giving money to the homeless will naturally increase disposition with them and may get us some street info from them, maybe in the future if rent is ever a thing we could get good with the land lord of our place and work out better deals with them, maybe even get access to someone's apartment through a favor.

I'm sure many others have similar and other ideas of how this could all be handled as well.

icy widget
#

I remember someone suggesting getting caught doing a crime should lower your social credit score. It should be good for something, right?

hollow frigate
#

Current social credit I feel a big no on that

#

if social credit was more a relationship thing and our retirement was tied to something else like funds or something? I'd say sure.

#

but downgrading progression because of a playstyle always feels bad

shy fossil
#

More consequences also invite more fun ways to skirt consequences. For example, I just played RDR2. A fun detail in that game is that wearing a mask reduces the likelihood of becoming wanted. Combining that with this game's tight inventory restrictions would be a very fun tension

snow vigil
#

I like the suggestion of lowering the social credit score, but there should also be more penalties. Such as heavier fines and time lost.

Getting caught doing crime isn't a playstyle. It's just a mistake. And with how the game is now, doing illegal things is the easy way for both money and investigations, so there needs to be more balance.

shy fossil
#

Going to NPC disposition - what if you took that all the way and could end up antagonizing an NPC into attempting to murder you?

hollow frigate
#

My issue with the social credit score being lowered is, as it is currently, it's just a % bar you get points towards. It's effectively seeing a end-screen progress bar and forcing a player to lose that because they maybe had to steal something and got caught, always feels iffy. It's why I'd like the consequences related to those things to not be so directly harmful to the player's global campaign progression.

#

harmful to progression in the sense of you being chased or money going down n all that? sure. but the main progression that you solve cases for beyond money shouldn't be affected imo.

snow vigil
#

Not at all trying to sound condescending or like a dick, but isn't the answer don't get caught? And if you only do stuff like stealing if its absolutely necessary for a job instead of grabbing everything you see, then in the end it really shouldn't harm your progression.

#

Especially if you're not getting caught for half your crimes.

hollow frigate
#

Issue with that is the game has a focus towards a imm-sim style sandbox

#

and at the heart of those types of games is the freedom of playstyle while still getting the end-goal done.

snow vigil
#

You can still steal and do illegal things all you want. The playstyle is still open. You would just have to be more cautious about it if preserving social credit is a priority.

hollow frigate
#

Being able to go gungho and bash into people's apartments, taking people down just to solve a case is a playstyle that is valid. Proceeding to then tell the player "all that social credit you got for the case solved? lmao that's gone" would be a bad call at that point.

snow vigil
#

I think it gives more meaning to a player's decisions

#

But don't these consequences only come if you get caught?

#

I obviously don't agree with lowering the social credit just by committing crime. Wouldn't make sense without getting caught.

hollow frigate
#

the crime ones would yeah since they'd need to get underlined to be considered "spotted"

#

but as said, its a playstyle to not care about getting caught and attempt to go in and just knock people out.

#

as a result I believe the consequences should never directly harm the player's main progress ever. It can make things harder, delay them, take resources to commit to or due to being caught but the player should be able to still reach the end regardless.

snow vigil
#

You just said earlier, its an imm-sim kind of game. I don't think assaulting everybody in your path and not paying some sort of price is that immersive. The playstyle would still be there, but the reward would be different.

west belfry
#

Social Credit will eventually do more I think, so I wouldn't take that out of the picture fully. Depends on what it will do later.

Another idea to add on to this is maybe if you have a 'bounty' so to speak then you could pay someone off to get rid of it. I think as well, people should have an opinion of you and make things more difficult for the player if they've had negative interactions with them. Maybe cops will watch you closer when near a crime scene as example.

hollow frigate
#

Personally I feel like when you do cases, some of the funds gets put into "savings" and can't be accessed or contributed to outside of cases. Make that replace the current social credit system. we can then have the social credit system actually be about well, social credit.

#

if we had that, I'd say we could have getting caught and being an aggressive douche harming your social credit

#

but as it stands, it's currently the method by which you "win" any given game.

#

which is the thing I'd want to avoid ever harming.

snow vigil
#

Isn't it meta to just knock everybody out at a point of interest so you can freely investigate? The reward is the simplicity in your objective, but there should be some give to it too.

hollow frigate
#

rather try to figure out ideas to fix and add-on which would shape it away.

sharp wadi
#

The old school immersive sims would punish you if you messed up. LIke if your play style is to take your time and and explore everything you could get bit in the ass when the game suddenly remind you 'hay you know that objective you had that we told you to rush too cuz it was time sensitive? yah we weren't kidding about that, now all the hostages are dead.'

#

The only tangible punishments currently in this game is social credit and money

snow vigil
hollow frigate
#

currently time pressure is more people dead.

#

which, is fair.

sharp wadi
#

the game shouldn't punish you for a playstyle, the city should~

snow vigil
#

I personally think the decision to go in and knock everybody out in order to solve a case quickly, should be one because of time pressure on completing a case. And not because it's just the easy thing to do, especially without consequence.

hollow frigate
sharp wadi
#

the game 'rewards' you for your aggressive, kick down the door style but making things harder... and maybe even the government figureing it out and lowering your social credit socre as punishment if you go around pissing off the gov

snow vigil
#

Or you decided to do it because its the easy thing to do, but the game takes away from you for doing it the "easy" way.

#

It's not punishing the playstyle. If anything, it would actually make it a playstyle, since you are actively deciding to give certain things up, to progress a case in a certain manner.

sharp wadi
#

Put like just getting witnessed doing a crime shouldn't instantly lower your score... it should be a consequence that looms over your head if you go to far or piss off to many people.

Like kicking down the door of your killers house, beating the crap out of him, and handcuffing him... all 'technically' illegal actions. BUT he can't report them to any one and the enforcers don't seem like the type to listen to the testimony of a killer.

snow vigil
#

Maybe there needs to be another system, like reputation? Could affect what kind of job listings/payments you get. More violent solutions maybe gives more violent job listings? And less of the ones that require "discretion".

hollow frigate
sharp wadi
#

'This job requires descretion'
-calls number-
'Oh I've heard about you... no... no I don't think you're a good fit for this job -click- -dial tone-'

hollow frigate
#

just make the player's goal progression named something else, make social credit into a social thing.

snow vigil
sharp wadi
#

Social Credit is something that exists IRL... it's basically just government goodboy/girl points

icy finch
sharp wadi
#

See China

hollow frigate
icy finch
#

o7
Didn't wanna jack what you said and whack my name on it xD

snow vigil
# hollow frigate Personally I feel like when you do cases, some of the funds gets put into "savin...

I like this, because IMO money should be the end-goal for retirement. Idk how the lore interacts with this though.

But if this becomes a thing, I think it should be up to the player on how much he invests towards this endgame-goal of retirement savings. Like he can walk into a bank(or city hall for simplicity), and deposit(non-refundable) however much he wants. This gives the player more agency over the situation, and just more decisions to make.

icy finch
#

Just make sure the bank is not robbable xDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

snow vigil
#

But because of the dystopia thing going on, it might not fit the devs vision

icy widget
hollow frigate
#

just because it's the most effective due to the game's currently horrible balance, doesn't mean we should be saying people need to lose all their retirement progress over it.

snow vigil
#

If the social credit score progress was a third of what it was if you use violent/illegal solutions, would you still play that way? Yeah, the balance is (understandably) pretty bad right now. Going in and putting everyone out is the most effective, time efficient, and easiest way to play right now. It's just superior for both cash and credit score per hour.

Let's say you would only gain 20-30% of the retirement progress if you were solving a case like this. Then it could legitimately be seen as a playstyle. The cash gains would be the same, but the retirement progress would be lower.

#

Right now, it can't be differentiated from power gaming.

#

So yeah, hoping your other suggestion gets looked at and considered.

#

If violent and illegal was more cash per hour, but lower credit score per hour, and straight and stealthy was less cash, but more credit score per hour, then we could say its a playstyle. But we are probably defining "playstyle" differently.

hollow frigate
#

there's plenty of side jobs that mention "discretion" as a requirement

#

it would be nice if those tracked if you were being particularly loud when completing their objectives and gave bonuses apart of it.

#

but if its just a blanket to all jobs and cases "you get less cause you were playing wrong >:(((" that's lame.

snow vigil
#

You don't necessarily get less though. Lets say it was penalized, but not so heavily, you could probably make a comparable amount of credit score per hour(and obviously more cash per hour) just due to how quickly you can progress in a case with this playstyle.

#

Gaining a violent rep, and it affecting the "discrete" jobs is a really nice idea though, and that alone might be enough to solve this issue. Atleast for me.

hollow frigate
#

Issue is in this ideal state, this method of playing wouldn't be so effective to begin wtih anymore

#

you're looking at it as if it'd stay the most effective means of mass information gathering to solve cases, but realistically the entire playstyle would have caveats like the one I suggest with fines.

#

Enforcers responding to the scene of a B&E properly, them hunting you down more ruthlessly as your fines stack up, it'd get harder to consistently do this playstyle but if you're gonna be aggressive you gotta learn to start being aggressive to the respective threats that come to meet it.

#

So nerfing the amount of retirement progress for this would end up being a negative

sharp wadi
#

KOing an Enforcer, if they saw you do it. (i.e. didn't hit the guy from behind and down him in one) should come with a APB on your head. In GTA terms you just got max wanted level and they are going to hound you every time they see you

hollow frigate
#

^

sharp wadi
#

They seem like the type who would care more that you attacked one of their own then beating up a rando homeless guy in the street.

hollow frigate
#

Dystopian police still have to hold some form of ""law"" and ""order"", so depending on who you screw with and amount def depends on the attention you'd get

#

I could see fines being unnaturally reduced in areas that are more low class.

#

like even if some basement apartment has a diamond and you meme thrown vandalism it, it'd be massively reduced.

#

do it on the top floor people tho? better hope you dont get caught cause that's gonna be a big fine.

sharp wadi
#

Breaking and Entering - Might get one enforcing comeing by
Domestic Violence (I.E. neighbor heard you beating up someone in the apartment) - Might get one or two for a check up, knock on the door and see not instantly bust down the door.

#

Full on fist fight in the hall, oh you know you're getting a two or three guys coming to kick your asses and drag you to jail

hollow frigate
#

regular fist fight in the hall would probably just be 1 enforcer trying to break it up if anything

#

realistically all they see is just 2 dumb bois, probably assuming their drunk, making an ass of themselves.

#

sure YOU may know the better context, maybe you're beating down the suspect or something, but they dont.

sharp wadi
#

If you get into a fight with an Enforcer and they call for backup... well...

#

good luck

hollow frigate
#

kek

latent wren
#

I think one of the most immersive parts of any immersive sim is when you make a mistake and instead of just reloading a save or whatever, you've gotta either work through a lot of complex systems to cover your tracks or suffer a massive penalty. I think that if any civilian sees your face while you're doing crime either you have to eventually pay the fine that stacked up in the top left, or kill the witness. I know the devs have talked about how killing NPCs breaks a lot of the simulation, can cause gaps in crime/job generation, but it has such potential if the player had the decision to kill somebody in order to avoid massive fines and this would lead to a new crime scene that you caused which you or possibly an NPC detective could get tasked with solving and lead to you either trying to fake the case, frame somebody, or have an AI detective trying to link you to the crime, I can imagine that'd be really difficult to code but having layers of crazy bullshit simulation like that are the core of the genre IMO.

hollow frigate
#

I'm gonna hard disagree with any inclination of killing other npcs, AI detectives investigating you and anything related to that front.

We are the detective. The more you add none detective stuff the more people will start playing the game as a murder or criminal game.

#

IMMSIMM doesn't mean they have to simulate a bunch of stuff, it just means they offer a huge variety of playstyles and methods to a situation.

#

They give the believability of a player being in a world but they still anchor the player to the gameplay

#

else we'd have really crazy unnecessary stuff in some of the most famous Immsimms

latent wren
#

right but we're not a police detective, we're an ex-cop, we're basically an unlicensed vigilante and that has a whole variety of tonal variations and degrees of crookedness, I just think the coolest kind of story you can get from a game like this is one where things just got really out of hand

#

and the game doesn't really have that layer to it atm

hollow frigate
#

Fair but that can be addressed through measures that don't involve turning this into a crime game.

#

the game already has a crime detector on if any of your stuff was seen or not, really besides some jank as sometimes things get marked even if no one saw you, that's all we need and then systems to react to it.

hollow frigate
snow vigil
#

Issue is in this ideal state, this method of playing wouldn't be so effective to begin wtih anymore

hollow frigate
#

currently all npcs do without interruption is : get food, walk around, go home and do X or Y interactions, Work time? work.

snow vigil
#

So this isnt an issue of your playstyle being changed, but the best way to play being nerfed?

hollow frigate
#

yes/no

#

I want all things to have consequences, positives and negatives.

sharp wadi
#

The crime thing for marking your fine should have an addition thing for it... right now it's only red but should have a yellow version.
Red - Your crimes are reported and this is your current fine. Enforcers if they recognize you will try to arrest.
Yellow - You are doing a crime but it's not reported... this is the fine that will be added if it is.

hollow frigate
#

that makes those style of play attractive to different players

#

the current 'meta' is to grab a sword and giga bash all doors and ignore everything. The reason it's even that meta is because there isn't consequence for it (and also cause sword is too strong among other weapons.)

hollow frigate
#

butyeah, so the fast aggressive playstyle would have the benefits of being able to potentially get in and gather stuff quick, but the downside that people could call the cops from hearing the commotion or even the person you just B&E'd doing it and all reported fines will ensure you get hunted.

#

but the slow, vent goblin/lockpicker style could end up wasting precious time that ends up with another body or something important being missed.

#

but now you don't deal with all the fallout, maybe if you do get caught you can somehow talk your way out of it provided you didn't do anything stupid like steal half the apartment's valuables or do vandalism.

latent wren
#

also in regards to "the more you add non-detective stuff the more people will start playing the game as a murder or criminal game", I really don't think that's a bad thing, it's a really hilarious and fun way to play the game, sometimes you gotta let people poop in the sandbox if they really want to. I'm not sure if it's in the game currently but if not I really hope they add the ability to sell stolen items for profit combined with some Papers Please style severe 'needing to pay off your debts' gameplay loop and suddenly we've got the modern Thief remake we've all been waiting for

sharp wadi
#

I feel that the 'detective' aspect of the game should be first and formost the primary thing. If the devs want to add more sandbox options after they get the core game perfected than sure

hollow frigate
#

its actually an extremely powerful method of getting money via stealing diamonds or other expensive stuff.

latent wren
#

that's pretty neat but if it is extremely powerful I think the pawn shops should rip you off more to balance it

sharp wadi
#

Or Pawn Shops won't want to by certain goods... but a black market would

snow vigil
#

Id like if money from selling stuff like diamonds to the pawnshop(or black market like suggested) wasnt able to be used for certain things. Like Rent or some Banking features if they are ever implemented.

#

Because the money isnt traceable or w/e.

#

You could still use it to buy food and buy stuff from the black market, but it would give more reason to complete cases instead of just going door to door looking for diamonds

#

Atleast because of the theme of the game, completing cases should be necessary to survive

hollow frigate
#

Honestly I'd rather just if you tried to sell stolen items it'd get brought back to you because people investigate it and it pings you

#

by brought back I mean the act of stealing to begin with*

snow vigil
#

I like the idea of the black market buying your diamonds. For maybe 1/10th or so of the current price

#

RN, finding 2 or 3 diamonds early pretty much sets you up.

#

Maybe you could pawn it with the risk of it being traced back to you yeah

oblique timber
#

I had the idea of a possible run mutator where you have a Karma value that increases when you solve cases and decreases when you perform crime, regardless of being caught.

boreal iris
#

I would love the game to not be so easy 🙏

mystic drift
#

Really good ideas in here guys! I think if I was going the route of you can be busted for things I’d want a wanted system of sorts… If you beat one person up in their home with security systems off. Only that person would remember you, and that would be vague since they don’t know your name or anything. So they know what you look like and maybe after 5-7 days or something they just forget about it. I’m thinking if you get close to this person they’ll have a prompt of “ you look familiar…” and if you stick around will sound alarm for guards. If you get caught on security cameras doing anything, at least one person knows what you look like somewhat. This would lead to a bar being filled up over time, again of enforcers or apartment management that would promt “you look familiar “ so if you stick around you’ll get arrested/find. Maybe if he crime is ridiculous like knocking out everyone in city hall then it’s like instant all enforcers will arrest you on the spot. So bar being filled up over time would look like, 1 enforcer + apartment manager knows what you look like , again vaguely not on the spot starts shooting you. Over time more enforcers would be told what you look like making them someone you’d want to avoid. This would be then a good idea for disguises to mask your identity, leaving you free to continue until you get caught on security systems again. So the security systems would be a “last seen looking like this” type of thing. And for this wanted system, again would trail off over time depending on the crime so maybe like 2-5 days or something. I think something like then busting down your apartment door to arrest you should only be a thing if you’re doing outrageous crimes all day back to back or getting chased to your apartment by enforcers after blowing up city hall or something. Lastly a jail system in place. For one, it would be cool to see the people you’ve arrested and eventually they are let out.

#

And two, when you get arrested you can either sneak out, pay bail, serve your time (with a time skip, maybe lose a random inventory item or lose a sync disk upgrade) , or bribe guards. Ideally all this stuff shouldn’t hinder the player too much so like even if you get caught it’s not like the entire town knows right away, you lay low for a while and avoiding getting too close to people that might recognize you, and you’re fine. Or you disguise yourself and continue on. Maybe have a cool off time from people that chased you, aka you beat up someone in an apartment , enforcers chase you and you get away. They patrol the city for an hour, give up if they don’t find you, and then back to having a cool down timer until they just forget about it .

oblique timber
#

Time spent in jail isn't really a problem in a video game the way it is in real life. Heck, getting shot or beat up is essentially the same think, they just justify it as being in a coma instead of waiting in a holding cell.

mystic drift
#

I wouldn’t want it to be a problem just would be fun to break out of jail

#

Idk if you ever played San Andreas role play servers back in the day… but waiting real life hours in a jail cell in a game is literal torture and would make me not want to play anymore

timber token
# hollow frigate but downgrading progression because of a playstyle always feels bad

I agree with wabbid about this. If big and loud gets more love, it'll come with things to keep from being found out, like masks or jammers. Plus, you could argue that money is 'progression' right now, since social credit ONLY determines a win condition, while money determines gear, apartments, and etc. Things that actually change. But still, if you can win, you should be able to lose, right? How else could you lose but by your social credit score tanking so low that they just chuck you into the sea? To do that, there'd need to be ways for it to get taken away from you.

oblique timber
#

I thought that getting hospitalized reduced your social credit.

hollow frigate
# timber token I agree with wabbid about this. If big and loud gets more love, it'll come with ...

I don't disagree but not every game needs an absolute lose state, especially in this genre. Ultimately this is why I ended up suggesting the new social credit suggestions because I feel it could have a more impactful role without needing to impact the player's ultimate win condition unless we want to make caveats to side jobs and maybe cases that are influenced by playstyle and change accordingly. Like a vandalism job doesn't care if you get caught but a envelope or briefcase tailing one would and would dock money from your final score.

sharp wadi
#

I think whole heartedly social credit consequences should be a thing. But such a thing only really works when social credits mean more than just 'winning'

shrewd edge
#

I think new systems need to be implemented for this to work.
As mentioned social credit is sort of "End state" for winning.
Anything that lowers that score, whether for mistakes we made or choices actively persued, would result in lengthening the game.

Anything that prolongs the game will bring to light more issues with the procedural generation and repetition in cases.

If we want a "Consequences" It needs to not artificially lengthen the game.
A failstate "Gameover" could be a difficulty toggle people opt into. I would opt into it depending on how in depth a mechanic it was. Social Credit hitting zero? No thx. A separate bar based solely on us misbehaving? No, that punishes playstyles.

I think back to a suggestion that was left in the archive for our detective leaving prints, and that turning into Enforcers or rival detectives (Who could run their own agency to rival ours) turning around and linking crimes to us.

Raising a crime score could increase security on buildings we've been in, standing guards, having enforcers respond to alarms, reduce our access to certain services like Sync clinics/cityhall PCs, (Forcing us to use the black market services for sync discs and weapon vendors)

#

The final "Failstate" of that system being a warrant set on us by Enforcers and rival Detectives. It doesnt strictly end the run, but now we have to take extra measure to avoid detection. Watch our backs for NPCs tailing us for an arrest. ANd IF we get arrested; the simple solution is to treat it as hospital visits are treated.

We pay a fine, time passes. we are released. The fine could be hefty, time passing could mean we lose our home/agency. But dont have it touch social credit. Its a measurement of progress and we could have credit with underground factions/corrupt officials that would still get us access to The Fields.

#

And yes, the option to skip fines and escape prison would mirror skipping hospital bills.

#

But then we need a new way to turn in cases outside city hall.
Our own agency could have that, and I do remember seeing the case file pickup/turn-in folder being purchasable. (Though it fell through the geometry when i bought it xD)

hollow frigate
shrewd edge
#

Noted! Read, responded!

#

Very close take, but also i think misunderstanding what our goal is in game.
A different system to social credit might work to solve our issue here though, and its an idea worth considering!

timber token
# shrewd edge I think new systems need to be implemented for this to work. As mentioned social...

not artificially lengthen the game
So my outlook is this: the game is presenting a challenge. The game is asking you to meet that challenge. If you fail to do so, you should not be rewarded with progress. You should be incentivized to get better which will then allow you to progress. The game will take as long as you take to get better at it, or until you lower the difficulty or game length settings. Impacting social credit score still allows (or should allow) for fast and loud raids, you just need to do them more thoughtfully, and the game is about thoughtful play.

punishes playstyles
I hard disagree. At the moment, busting down a door and handcuffing everyone is easy mode. Social credit penalties would temper that by still allowing you to do it, just requiring that you're either right, or that you don't get caught. If social credit could be penalized, it would allow you to use it as a resource like people already do with credits. Getting into an apartment: pay 200c on a job paying 700c? Or get penalized 25 SC for trespassing on a job worth 100 SC? Alternatively, knock them out so fast they never see your face. Maybe there's even a mask you can wear. It could immediately trip alarms, but no one would recognize you while it's on.

crime score
I agree, and I think this would have to be something under the hood regardless, since whether or not social credit penalties exist, if a crime happens and people find out, but no one knows who did it, security should still go up. Especially, security should not NOT go up because you did a crime, got found out, but your SC was high. I might package it as "Alarm" and give the player some way to find it out. At the moment, the easiest way would be something on the map, like on a building tooltip, or color coding the rooms where it applies. "Relaxed" "suspicious" "vigilant" "panicked" etc

#

What I'm getting at with these posts is that Social Credit as it is presented should be doing these things for purposes of immersion, world-building, and game balance. If this was "detective level" then I wouldn't be saying to subtract it for doing a bad job. I think that most people agree lore-wise a change like this makes sense, but are hung up on perceptions of playstyles and balance. True enough, if the game changes in certain ways, this proposal may look like a poor way of balancing it in that future. But as it stands now and as expected, I think it is backed by lore, its impact is very clear, and it has precedent in gaming.

#

I should also expand on the "failure" I'm talking about above. There's sort of 2 kinds. In this game, failure is not finding out the info. But separately, there's actively messing up by getting things wrong, or in this case of this suggestion, getting caught doing shady stuff, the same things that you are trying to catch others for doing that's getting them fined and arrested. Failing to find stuff out shouldn't be penalized unless you for some reason decide to guess on a case. But messing up what you are supposed to do totally should bring some penalty, otherwise you have god mode on. That's like missing a quick time event and the game auto-passing it for you.

hollow frigate
#

My only issue with the whole playstyle punish is that I just don't want it affecting the primary goal progression. It can absolutely be punished in all sorts of ways, less money cause you were not discrete in a discrete-based job, cops being more on your ass, etc. I just feel like we shouldn't be subtracting our retirement bar because someone wanted to be a bit loud. You could adjust payout if it's a job and you broke a rule of that job, sure, but in general it shouldn't be ever reduced.

timber token
#

Why does it matter if it goes down if you can't lose, can just lower the game length, and there's no reward for beating the game?

#

The reward for beating is overcoming the challenge, but if the challenge never challenged you, the reward is cheap

hollow frigate
#

no lose state is irrelevant and there isn't a reward for beating any game really.

#

and we shouldn't consider those factors when said win condition doesn't even work and crashes people lol.

timber token
#

I think we should, because this is a conversation about game design and futures

hollow frigate
#

I'm going forward assuming the win condition will not onyl work but have some form of story payoff for our detective.

#

as currently it's just bugged and even if it wasnt I imagine there's no cutscene or special thing in place to begin with.

timber token
#

I think that social credit should totally act as another form of currency that is more powerful than crows which you can spend for favors and etc. Were that in the game now, I'd be more cautious about having crime take it away when there's money. But right now, it's just a number which could be doing a lot more for the experience while still being just a number

hollow frigate
#

Once again my main issue is that it's our primary method to "win".

#

it is the ultimate final condition to finish your character's run.

timber token
#

Then again, winning should mean something

hollow frigate
#

make social credit SEPARATE

#

so you can use it for stuff like you suggest or other mechanics

#

while still having a consistently filling win bar still on.

#

Then I'd be all for social credit taking hits.

#

idk if it'd be a currency, that doesn't really make sense.

#

a requirement for certain features sure

#

but social credit is just

timber token
#

It would be a currency in the sense it could be spent on things like money

hollow frigate
#

well if we go off the more real stuff, its basically how much of a goodboy you are to the government.

#

so you can't really "spend" it.

#

its more something people would look up to see if you're a goodboy or not

timber token
#

You can't right now, but you could

hollow frigate
#

yeah ofc you cant right now

#

this is all suggestions theories and possibilities

#

I know what the game allows you to do currently

#

we aren't talking about that

#

we're talking about game design and the future.

#

and social credit is clearly not meant to be a currency as else it wouldn't be called social credit

timber token
#

I don't think you could really have a Fields retirement just from money. The game doesn't make sense that way. It's supposed to be a place anyone can retire to even without money, theoretically, if they have a good score

hollow frigate
#

as its based off a real world concept that.. mainly china is using atm iirc

timber token
#

Credit is literally money

#

Any monetary system besides barter is credit

hollow frigate
#

Retirement can mean many things, in that suggestion you could easily make the ending change based off your social score

#

some people retire but still have some measure of menial job to keep them doing stuff

#

its not just a "I stop doing stuff and live the good life forever"

timber token
#

The point of the Fields is that it's a pipedream but one anyone can aspire to, especially folks who aren't rich

hollow frigate
#

High social credit would mean you secure your position in the fields when you decide to retire, low would mean a different ending.

#

and considering the dystopian nature of the game

#

I sincerely doubt that pipe dream isn't full of caveats or other fineprint garbage that our detective could be knowledgeable about

timber token
#

But there is no Fields actually in the game, so only tying SC to a good or bad ending makes it even more useless

hollow frigate
#

it doesnt need to be in the game

#

its an end result

timber token
#

Yeah

#

So

hollow frigate
#

a story piece, a goal

#

thatsit

timber token
#

Tying it only to a good or bad ending makes it worthless

hollow frigate
#

that doesnt mean its devalued or worthless

timber token
#

It would not pay off in any meaningful way

hollow frigate
#

people go for good/bad/neutral/cupcake endings in games all the time

timber token
#

And to get a certain ending you'd have to change your playstyle significantly

#

It's not worth having a whole system for

hollow frigate
#

that's..

#

usually how imm sims work

timber token
#

It's just not, not for tiny ending slides

hollow frigate
#

assuming it'd be tiny ending slides

#

we cant judge a non existant ending

#

on it's quality

timber token
#

The quality doesn't matter here

#

Like, at this point, just put a case limit on there

#

Solve X cases, retire

hollow frigate
#

so you assuming it's "worthless" and not having a "pay off" is very bad arguments.

timber token
#

Thematically, Social Credit does more. In world, immersively, it does more

#

If you want a game design tally counting toward the ending, sure, I don't see an issue with that

hollow frigate
#

that is

#

effectively what it is now yes

timber token
#

But Social Credit is set up to have so much more potential

hollow frigate
#

its literally just a tally

#

and I agree it is

#

which is why I want it separate from the tally

#

so mechanics can be tied to it

#

so we can have consequences related to those mechanics

#

and have playstyles get their own details due to how they play

timber token
#

To be honest, if the game had no ending, it would be no different

#

People would solve cases because they are fun, not to get to the end state

#

The end state would only really matter if this got more rogue-like elements

hollow frigate
#

irrelevant really.

#

considering you can just not retire as it is

#

if people want to keep going they can

#

but an end state is nice for people that finally want to well

#

retire a character.

#

just because its useless to you doesn't mean its useless to a vast majority of people

timber token
#

I don't think there's that much of a connection between people's characters that they feel fuzzy they finally got to go to the farm (which probably means just getting shot tbh)

hollow frigate
#

thats

#

literally opinion asf

#

and as said we won't know the full pay off to the endings of the game yet

#

so assuming asf too

timber token
#

I did not say anything about future

#

Right now, you set name, gender, and skin color

#

Your password is 1234

hollow frigate
#

yeah, but that's irrelevant as that's RIGHT NOW.

#

that can easily change

timber token
#

There is no indication currently

#

There are also tons of other things I'd rather get than proc gen backstories for my detectives

#

Like, main murder mystery core gameplay type things

hollow frigate
#

whoever said anything about generated backstories for the detective lol

timber token
#

That would be one thing to help players connect to their character

hollow frigate
#

the character is who they create. a generated backstory wouldn't connect them as then its not theirs

#

that's the fun of character creation and naming, you don't give a backstory. you keep it hidden in some regard.

timber token
#

There's plenty of games where you don't play as a character you make but end up embodying or connecting with them

hollow frigate
#

actually yknow what we've gone completely off topic, how does this even relate to the original ideas

timber token
#

That's also literally 99% of TV and movie media, you don't make those chars

hollow frigate
#

consequences

#

for your actions

timber token
#

Because it is arguing that penalties to social credit are fine because you can just keep grinding until you get the ending anyway and the ending doesn't even really matter that much, especially sacrificing a cool mechanic for it

#

But I do like the redirect after I pointed out a contradiction in your statements

hollow frigate
#

just because you can keep grinding doesn't mean they're fine. the argument was reducing your credit, that doesn't mean grind. You could end up losing more than you get very easily.

#

alsoyoudidntreally?

timber token
#

ok lol

hollow frigate
#

only thing I'll say on the irrelevant subject : There's plenty of games where you play as an established character, and there's plenty where you dont and create one. How a player is connected to either an established or created character is entirely up to how the game plays out and if the player is capable of connecting to begin with. Also TV and movie media are COMPLETELYE FUCKING IRRELEVANT TO THAT TOPIC and I notice you love bringing random stuff up for seemingly no reason to try to tie them into it. Anyways this stuff is completely irrelevant to losing social credit, its character creation stuff.

sharp wadi
#

woah. Calm down

hollow frigate
#

But yeah, losing my good boy social cred points and going back to 0 because of my playstyle will feel horrible and mean I'm being effectively targeted and overly punished in a game genre that thrives off letting the player experiment with the loudest and quietest methods they wish for with their own issues to suit them.

hollow frigate
#

I'm just trying to bring the subject back to the proper topic.

sharp wadi
#

yah but the all caps part of that is kinda aggressive and mean and against the rules of the discord. Gotta cover your ass if the mods are watching 😄

#

not being in all caps itself just the tone of it

hollow frigate
#

its not all caps, its not against the rules (only excessive swearing) and I use caps for emphasis on certain things.

#

If a mod for some reason has an issue then they can @ me and I'll try to "chill" but overall I'm a very aggressive person in arguments. I don't mean harm in it, just how I do it.

snow vigil
#

Catching up to the thread, but I feel like it's just incorrect to say that reduced social credit score by solving cases with indiscriminate violence would be "punishing" a playstyle. If the game started with this sort of system, would you feel the same way?

#

I understand its specifically the progression to game completion being penalized that you don't want, but I feel that thematically it makes sense. Quick and violent would still be an efficient way to make crows. Slow and clean would be quicker progress. We would never say that playing slow and clean is punished by less crows per hour, so it shouldn't apply to social credit penalties to quick and violent.

timber token
#

Let me break it down for you:
-I presented an argument that social credit penalties are fine because right now, it only impacts getting an ending, and the ending doesn't even really matter because you can't lose and can just grind for it. I concluded that, if you just removed the ending from the game, nothing would change, and at that point, you would seem to not have a point against the argument.
-You followed up by saying that some people want to retire their characters, implying they derive satisfaction from their character reaching a narrative ending because they have connected with them.
-I responded by saying that there is little in the game now to allow you to connect with your character, and seemingly little promised for it. I argued that if more was done to that effect, like generated backstories, it would definitely be a valid point.
-You argued that generated backstories wouldn't really help, because people wouldn't have 'created' the backstory to get connected to the char.
-I pointed out that people get plenty attached to characters they don't make the backstories for.

Admittedly, you could have then argued that people can still make backstories for their detectives in this game without a system in the code for it. That is totally true, and I would have argued that those people are probably a small percentage of players, but still.

The reason this was all relevant is because whether or not the ending has worth, one reason possibly being character connection, is relevant to the discussion on whether actions impacting your march toward it are worthwhile or appropriate.

timber token
snow vigil
sharp wadi
#

I am a huge proponent of the 'your actions have consequences' style of gameplay.

Like if I can just go anywhere and do anything with no repercussions in a open sandbox, why won't I just gravitate to the most 'optimal' gameplay even if it's not the more in-depth or fun. Really depends on the type of game of course but this is supposed to be an immersive sim... those style of games usually feature a good amount of 'your actions have consequences'

#

Breaking into the wrong house, beating everyone up and steeling everything that isn't nailed down to sell should warrant some kind of consequence if you are caught.

Like the game shouldn't instantly punish you but def if a reputation system gets put in and NPCs can actually remember you obviously over time all the people who you beat up in their own homes are going to hate you and trust you less.

People are going to be more warry about security with some cat burglar detective running amuck. Enforcers may be more on the look out for you... and in a dystopia where the government tracks your social score... well... you may find if they actually catch you being a bad cog in the machine that they may punish you by subtracting your goodboy points if not something worse.

snow vigil
#

@hollow frigate Everyone here agrees that consequences of actions and playstyles should be a thing. We just don't agree on exactly how it should be executed. I fully believe that a quick and violent playstyle should have factors that serve to really discourage such a "playstyle"(or better, encourage other playstyles), and social credit score penalties is far from being the worst idea. It already has the benefits of being easy, fast case progression, and will likely remain the best way to earn quick crows even if there is some major rework.

The optimal playstyle should be dependent on your goals. If the same goal can be achieved with any playstyle, but there's a clearly optimal way to achieve that goal and it's not even close, that's a problem.

#

Quick and violent atm is just straight up power gaming. It 100% needs a nerf, and calling it a punishment because of a particular change is being disingenuous. There's no wrong way to approach this issue. It's just about which is better game-wise, and that's entirely subjective. Interested to see what sort of direction the devs will go with this.

hollow frigate
#

Alright.
@snow vigil

If the game started with this sort of system, would you feel the same way?
Yes actually.

We would never say that playing slow and clean is punished by less crows per hour, so it shouldn't apply to social credit penalties to quick and violent.
Some people seem to want that 2nd option though, which is my issue.

I fully believe that a quick and violent playstyle should have factors that serve to really discourage such a "playstyle"(or better, encourage other playstyles)
As a blanket statement I fully agree with this,
and social credit score penalties is far from being the worst idea.
but because of how social credit works currently, I can't agree with this.

Quick and violent atm is just straight up power gaming. It 100% needs a nerf, and calling it a punishment because of a particular change is being disingenuous.
I agree it needs a nerf but my issue will always be that it's the wrong type of punishment to invoke on a player in this type of game genre. It won't be the best example but : You don't teleport someone backwards through a level and respawn enemies in deus ex or prey because they were say, killing everyone including quest givers? No those games are fitted to add their own consequences without affecting the player's actual progression, those consequences often come in missing out on content or maybe even dire consequences later for the player.

hollow frigate
snow vigil
#

I think we were(atleast I was) saying that the penalties to the social credit scores should only be if you're caught. Gaining completion progress should still be possible even if you go quick and violent, but I feel there's nothing wrong with it being slower. And significantly so if you're careless. And if you're just getting caught left and right, literally anytime you interact with the world, I don't see being setback as an issue either. More specifically if you choose this playstyle against innocent NPCs and get caught doing so.

sharp wadi
#

the idea I think behind social credits is it is like IRL Social Credit systems in a way. When you do an odd job and get social credits it basically implies that the citizen who you did the job for basically gave you a thumbs up on some government system to report 'good/bad' people and rewards/demerits based on such.

#

The government maintains the system... and if hte system is the only way to get ahead in life in stands the government has an incentive to keep undesirable people down. Those who help the city/government and don't hurt the city/government are more desirable. Basically feels like you need to play the system to get ahead, balance breaking the rules (and not getting caught) with being a good little cog.

snow vigil
sharp wadi
#

Sure you can smash and grab everything, play aggress. play violent. Heck you might even come ahead and get social levels higher and higher. But it's a dangerous game... eventually you'll mess up... and could get punished and demerited.

#

so if you wanna be violent, quick, and dangerous. You also need to be smart

#

don't get caught

#

Could even add certain things like 'masks' for you to use to hide your ID from people.

#

...really all of the issues and arguments over consequences both hing on what mechanics get fleshed out and added later on. Like as it stands now, social credit consequences are bad. But as the game goes on and more interaction and mechanics get fleshed out/added then such a thing might be able to work a lot better.

snow vigil
#

Even if you want to play slow and "clean", there will almost always be situations where you have to do something illegal because it's just the practical thing to do. Not getting caught and avoiding the penalties would just engage the player more.
And with how the system is right now, implementing this with social credit score penalties would probably be the simplest way to do so. And seemingly for the majority of us, doesn't seem bad at all.

#

Ofc there's other ways this could be done, but it just may be unnecessary complications and feature bloat.

hollow frigate
# timber token Let me break it down for you: -I presented an argument that social credit penalt...

#1 Your argument falls apart when we start thinking of the very thing you tried to pull on me, thinking of game design and the future. Suggesting mechanics like this for an issue that could be easily balanced and changed up in a way better capacity towards future builds is not the good take you think it is.

#2 I never said or implied anything about satisfaction, I said it's for people that finally want to end a character's run. It could be entirely for them to immediately start anew or maybe it is for satisfaction, but assuming I implied anything about player connection or satisfaction when you're the one pulling that out to begin with is bad faith asf.

#3&4 I implied that the player would be giving their detective a backstory to begin with. yes people get connected to characters with their own stories but often if its a player created thing those stories given have enough details shadowed that they ultimately can come up with whatever they want. Generates backstories would just be horrible because it'd probably try to create too much for someone's detective oc. Also you randomly brought up procgen backstories out of the blue, don't act like you had an entire argument about it. Infact you said and I quote

There are also tons of other things I'd rather get than proc gen backstories for my detectives
Like, main murder mystery core gameplay type things
And that was it.

#5 Yes, if they're written properly or given enough leeway to make their own.

You sometimes argue in bad faith and you often bring up completely random topics and try to act like they've been apart of it and your entire discussion-method was flip flopy as hell which is why I ended up trying to turn it back to the main topic.
There was no pointed out contradiction, just you, trying to add more fluff to a topic that didn't need it. Now I'll try to keep to the discussion's main topic.

#

Also something I'd like to note
@snow vigil @sharp wadi since I can't reply to 2 messages..

I don't mind the idea of reduced progression on certain things based off playstyle, there's plenty of jobs that ask for discretion, I can see that reducing your main-progression for failing this clause. A blanket reduction however just tells people who want to play a game that way to get bent and some people are asking for it to be capable of reducing it beyond what you earn, meaning straight up draining your progression, THAT is my main issue.

#

Hell I could see some jobs that WANT you to be known, maybe taking one from a loan shark and they want you to be in the person's face as you get the money.

pine idol
#

Really hope some consequence is added like a jail or something. It gets quite funny bhopping away just to be able to return 10 seconds later like nothing happened.

hollow frigate
#

discretion jobs giving to penalties for not being discrete and bonuses for being extra quiet, vandalism or other loud jobs being on the flip side where you can get further rewarded for being extra about it.

pine idol
#

It just seems like there's really no punishing factors in the game yet. Makes it feel like a walk in the park for a stealth game.

hollow frigate
#

Cause there really isnt if you know it, the only time your fines are supposed to be paid are if you knockout

pine idol
#

Ngl, this is the most fun I've had on an indie stealth, but it's also the easiest stealth game I've played in a while.

snow vigil
#

@hollow frigate
Again, I understand it's just not what you want.

Getting caught doing illegal activities and being deducted social credit points just fits thematically, and with the game's current mechanics, I don't see a better way to do this.

Just want to emphasize, it's not the playstyle that I want penalized. It's getting caught. Obviously if you approach every situation with violence, you run the risk of getting caught many more times which will inevitably result in the penalty when you do eventually make a mistake. This isn't inherently a bad thing, and far from telling the player to "get bent".

I agree that gaining credit score while employing this playstyle should still be possible, but because of how easy "quick and violent" is, there needs to be other challenges when it comes to this "playstyle". And social credit score progression isn't the worst solution.

spiral cargo
#

I said it before my goodness Enforcers tracking you down in your apartment or even raiding it if found or them trashing your apartment some to get you to pay your fines

#

That'd be lit

pine idol
#

Having consequences/punishments would definitely balance out the fact that it's super easy to get stupid rich in this game.

spiral cargo
#

Gives some risk to thinking your apartment being your huge safe space in a dystopian corpo run world

pine idol
#

I had like 10+ g's within the first 2 days of my playthrough

hollow frigate
spiral cargo
hollow frigate
#

Christ even though I'd rather we not have them, incap grenades exist.

#

Telling me I should lose progression for using an item the game let me get?

#

because I got "caught"?

pine idol
#

I think there really needs to be a respect system for that. You get caught and begin getting looked at as a criminal by people who might know you. Vice versa for good deeds too.

spiral cargo
#

Many opportunities here

snow vigil
timber token
# hollow frigate #1 Your argument falls apart when we start thinking of the very thing you tried ...

#2 I did make an assumption about what you meant, which could have totally been wrong, but you did reply to it, so I didn't realize until after.

#X
You constantly pull out 'bad faith' to describe anyone who doesn't subscribe to your style of argument or logic. I'm arguing what I think and I'm backing it with reasons and logic and directly responding to your own arguments and reasoning (except in the times when I get it wrong, but that I am trying to understand you on your own terms is the exact opposite of bad faith). Whether you think those are valid reasons and good applications of logic doesn't matter. That's not bad faith.

The 'random topics' I bring up are often to try to connect ideas with examples. My thoughts are typically fast-paced and associative, and that's not a flex, but it means sometimes I have trouble communicating where my thoughts are going or why I'm talking about something. If something seems unrelated, that's probably why. I'm not just pulling things out of the blue, I'm trying to find similar things to compare them to make a point. Nothing is a vacuum.

sharp wadi
#

This discussion is fast turning into petty arguments... Feels like basically two teams arguing over difficulty. I mean easy fix, just make social credit consequences and such a difficulty option. Let us hard core 'I want the game to kick the shit out of me' player have our tough as nails dystopian detective sim, and let those who want a more casual game becing to turn on/off difficulty items at their choice

hollow frigate
# timber token #2 I did make an assumption about what you meant, which could have totally been ...

I mention bad faith twice and they were both in the same message, with the 2nd one me saying that you sometimes do it because of the first. That's not "constantly" and further proves you really don't know how to argue genuinely with someone without pulling some strange implication only you came up with.

The issue is you just randomly plop out those topics with no lead up, care or further explanation. If it's just an issue you have that's fine n all but I'm still gonna be the guy to call it out.

Regardless this is now just a back n forth that isn't apart of the topic at hand and we're just arguing to argue.

So with all that said, I will now no longer further message on this particular topic and only on the main topic of consequences.

sharp wadi
#

most every 'I don't want this kind of difficulty in the game' could be soved by a toggle. You can already turn on/off needs and status, why not other gameplay things

timber token
# hollow frigate I mention bad faith twice and they were both in the same message, with the 2nd o...

I've 'argued' with a lot of people here who don't have the same problems as you. I've also seen you pull the 'bad faith' card on several others here. Perhaps if you don't understand something I bring up, you could ask questions about it? If we explore something and you ask questions that get me thinking in a way where I find I'm wrong, I will raise my hand and admit it. I have before. Or you could keep insulting my ability to discuss things

hollow frigate
sharp wadi
#

(To be fair you can argue a bad faith argument without ever actually using the words 'bat faith')

hollow frigate
#

If that's really gonna be their angle, then they better be ready to message link me every single time I did it. and ill be ready to tell them, no, I didn't. well the argument is wrong, if I want to imply bad faith I'll just tell them I think it. VVVVVV

timber token
#

Then again though, similar things happened during the Cola wars of the 80's

#

I can't really say something one way or the other about what you would have retroactively done when you wouldn't have known the significance of it in this conversation

#

However, be that true, it would really be strange that you didn't call that argument out but you do call mine, even though my style and theirs are very different

#

I'll put it this way: Phenoix is right in that we all want the same thing but we disagree in how to do it. I'm not, or wasn't, trying to rile things up and get the topic off course. If you don't understand what I'm saying, ask for clarification or ignore it. But don't start characterizing me from a virtual glance. I'll be doing my best and I'm sorry when that's not good enough or when I get things wrong

pine idol
#

The more you guys argue, the more you just inflate your suggestion and make it harder for Devs to read through -- just sayin'.

hollow frigate
shrewd edge
#

Catching back up and making a last response.

I think there was a misunderstanding on what I meant my reduced social credit. Referencing a previous topic in the old suggestions I assumed reduced sc meant a negative total on the progress bar.

Simply reducing the score gained for fast and violent play feels. Better actually.

If solving work violence took as much time as solving thoroughly , it would have to accrue social credit slower and complete more jobs to be in line. Regardless, as I mentioned before, more systems need to be implemented to make consequences feel "nice. "
There doesn't feel like an acceptable place in the games as it is now, and with everyone's suggestions it feel like we were talking less and less of actionable ideas for the game as it is, and more of a hypothetical game as we imagine it in a post finished state.

If all the devs see is that we agree there should be consequences for actions, that is what I hope they act on

abstract harness
#

I'm going to give my immediate input on the first message posted here without reading anything since. Yall ready?

#

and I'm going to force one of my own suggestions into it, and none of you can stop me

snow vigil
#

Simply reducing the score gained for fast and violent play feels. Better actually.
Mostly agree as this can be a preference thing(my own too personally), but I think it's more reasonable to only penalize credit score if the player is caught doing illegal activities against the innocent NPCs. As far as I've read, everyone but the OP seems to support(or are indifferent) some sort of credit score loss for criminal activity, whether caught or not.

There doesn't feel like an acceptable place in the games as it is now, and with everyone's suggestions it feel like we were talking less and less of actionable ideas for the game as it is, and more of a hypothetical game as we imagine it in a post finished state.
Yeah, at the moment it's nothing more than an interesting debate. But the team created this suggestion box, and discussing these things in depth could potentially inspire certain changes that we can influence. Definitely still worth the conversation.

abstract harness
#

This isn't the kind of game that, without having it as a gameplay options (one I'd always play with on), you can have permadeath or any game-ending consequences. You can't be thrown into prison for 10 years and you can't die when you get caught.

This also isn't the kind of game that I think should have every single civilian pulling out a gun to shoot you because you messed with someone's mailbox.

From what I've seen money and debt are a huge theme in the game, and that could be extended to gameplay more by having bounties accrue as debt. Either you pay it off yourself or every X number of days enforcers are sent out to find you, beat you with batons, and take the payment by force if you don't willingly hand it over (Perhaps you could bribe the enforcer a smaller amount of money to him personally to turn a blind eye till next week, when he'll come asking for 2 weeks worth of payments.) You'd have to evade enforcers sent to your apartment and places you're known to frequent or pay up. Bigger crimes mean bigger debts. Perhaps you could sneak into a well protected bank office and delete your debt. It's something that doesn't immediately punish the player in a way that just knocks them back a few pegs. It becomes a dynamic gameplay hurdle and a new challenge with multiple ways to overcome it.

#

Now for forcing my own suggestion in. https://discord.com/channels/561162895887695883/1103771106747371570

Combining this with that, if you're a repeat criminal that's become troublesome to the police, they could be less likely to allow you into crime scenes, less likely to allow you to have their investigation files, and more likely to stonewall you.

#

someone give feedback please im begging you

hollow frigate
#

Said before, something like a vandalism job or any other would be loud-type job involving strong arming things would not care about you being caught, a tailing job would.

#

but it would never be a LOSS of credit score.

#

And I do understand this idea would only really affect side-jobs since murder cases don't really have a job giver that'd have a preference.

abstract harness
#

Credit score should only be lost if your actions negatively affect a large corporation. They don't care about cit-on-cit violence

#

Fighting enforcers, getting caught breaking into city hall, getting caught doing industrial espionage

timber token
# abstract harness Credit score should only be lost if your actions negatively affect a large corpo...

Interesting take and it's an interesting issue. Say you break into someone's house right in front of them and they lower your score. That would make sense, but if they have that power, what would stop them from in-universe mass-reporting you over and over? So then, if we say they can only send in a report every X hours, that removes the obstacle by letting you take a minor credit hit and being immune from them until the period expires. Doesn't really get the desired effect. But if we say they need to collect evidence of you doing the crime, like taking a picture, that requires a lot of AI work that probably doesn't tie in to anything else. Alternatively, it could be that someone can file a report against you for doing a crime, but a camera or an enforcer must see you do it within a certain period of it being done or see you where it happened. That would be like getting spotted trespassing or, if you get arrested, being found to have stolen goods. There could even be an element where the impact to your score increases or decreased based on that person's score as well as the severity of the crime. Breaking into a basement apartment would lose you a lot less than breaking into a penthouse apartment or a corporate office. That still gives the corporate element to the social credit score. And to that point, I'd argue they care somewhat about cit-on-cit if it's corporate related or just to be able to sort through the 'undesirables.' Obviously not as much as when something happens close to their chest, but that can be reflected by the penalty.

shrewd edge
#

Could tie reports into alarm time?

And yeah seems like we mostly agree a reduction in gains is ok. And a reduction of current total is not.

And yo, this chat been heated but very civil. Love y'all for that.

timber token
#

Nah, I think it should subtract from current. That's just what makes sense to me. But more importantly, doing it any other way leaves a lot of exploits. There's no way for the game to know which case to subtract the gains from besides the active case. Take on a dumb case you'll never bother solving. Whenever you're out and about, keep that case active so any penalties are applied to that case instead. Never turn it in, never lose points. Plus, it wouldn't make sense that the person giving you the job is withholding social credit for completing it when they likely don't know about the unrelated person who saw you in their home when you broke in to escape a maze of ventilation. That person that saw you would be the one to order the dip, not some guy who is apparently already OK with asking you to break into someone else's home and throw synth meat in their face. Furthermore, presenting the system that way gives the game the option to only apply social credit penalties when the government or the camera witnesses the crime to verify credit should be subtracted. Many of us in the convo have taken pains to point out that these penalties should only apply when caught, and requiring that someone official catch you mess up is a major appeal to balance imo. Otherwise you'd get social credit subtracted for 'trespassing' into someone's home to arrest them, which you currently must do, as arresting them on the street or at work often leads to people fighting you with their fists.

hollow frigate
# timber token Nah, I think it should subtract from current. That's just what makes sense to me...

Getting social credit from side jobs could be seen as people putting in a good word for you which ups your credit. If you don't adhere to a clause of their job it could potentially fail or atleast reduce the reward amount. There wouldn't be a "stack negative social credit" on a job, it'd be a checkmark effectively.

Tailing job : Discretion is a priority, if the player is able to tail the person, get the picture, snag the briefcase, know who it got put on, all that such WHILE keeping a low profile that checkmark will remain and they'll get the normal social credit amount because the person puts in a good word.

meanwhile your thrown up example of humiliation : The job giver wouldn't care if you're caught as it's likely the person you just egged will ofc know who did it. This type of job wouldn't have any clause for discretion, you could argue that maybe it wouldn't have as much social credit as the person you egged would give you a bad reportand the person giving the job would be positive but I feel it should always be a net gain.

That's the hitch : There should always be a gain, never a loss.
Being caught is not enough of a reason for someone to be drained of social credit, that's a horrible idea in a game that offers combative means as a way to get to people.

timber token
#

The penalty should be such that you either just started the game or have to really not be trying to get drained of it

shrewd edge
#

Ugh... The game

snow vigil
#

Getting social credit from side jobs could be seen as people putting in a good word for you which ups your credit. If you don't adhere to a clause of their job it could potentially fail or atleast reduce the reward amount. There wouldn't be a "stack negative social credit" on a job, it'd be a checkmark effectively.
Thematically this doesn't make much sense. An employer for a freelance opportunity, for a grey-area job, giving a good review on someone they hired one-time shouldn't have an impact on credit score. I agree with TastesPurple that Social Credit Score penalties should be more related to upsetting the Gov/Corp. I don't see how taking a picture of somebody random, for somebody random, would please the powers in charge. And if caught taking such photo, I don't see why it would upset them.

That's the hitch : There should always be a gain, never a loss.
Being caught is not enough of a reason for someone to be drained of social credit, that's a horrible idea in a game that offers combative means as a way to get to people.
Not saying social credit penalties must be the way to discourage being caught, but it's not necessarily a bad idea. I hope you recognize both your and our proposed solutions to this aren't necessarily right/wrong, good or bad.

But like I've said before, the game clearly doesn't want you to get caught. Getting caught should absolutely not be a choice that can give convenience to, or even benefit the player. There are stealth mechanics and things like door wedges, security sabotage, and escape routes. I firmly take the stance that getting caught is not a playstyle, but rather a hard mistake where penalizing progress is not a wild idea.

#

Just because there are combat mechanics, doesn't mean they should be freely used without consequence. Especially in situations where they may not be necessary or fitting to the game's vision. I'm not saying punching some random schmo in a back-alley should penalize you. But if you didn't disable a well-placed camera before beating up some enforcers and citizens and you are recorded, I just don't see how you could argue that it would be completely illogical for your government brownie points to be deducted.

#

Same goes for stealth related activities. If you are caught on camera breaking into a business, you should be similarly penalized. It's not the combat or playstyle I want to discourage, but getting caught. You could still easily manufacture a situation where you can solve things violently, but it wouldn't be as brainless as it currently is.

hollow frigate
# snow vigil > Getting social credit from side jobs could be seen as people putting in a good...

Thematically this doesn't make much sense. An employer for a freelance opportunity, for a grey-area job, giving a good review on someone they hired one-time shouldn't have an impact on credit score.
Then "thematically" the side jobs shouldn't even give social credit to begin with unless it's an enforcer arrest. All of the current jobs are highly sketch, illegal and often want discretion save for those arrests. Which funny enough I actually wouldn't be against? but that'd be for when economy is fixed to make money-only jobs worth bothering with.

I hope you recognize both your and our proposed solutions to this aren't necessarily right/wrong, good or bad.
Of course, I won't claim to have the best absolute opinion, it's why I even still argue in these to begin with. As it stands even arguing with the people in this even when me and TastesPurple went off topic gave me some possible ideas concerning game balance or other features.

But like I've said before, the game clearly doesn't want you to get caught. Getting caught should absolutely not be a choice that can give convenience to, or even benefit the player. There are stealth mechanics and things like door wedges, security sabotage, and escape routes. I firmly take the stance that getting caught is not a playstyle, but rather a hard mistake where penalizing progress is not a wild idea.
This I hard disagree with entirely as the game design is evidence enough against it. If being caught was supposed to be so against the game we wouldn't be given the option to use tools, fists, weapons, etc. to slap people and KO them, the dev would've easily just made it so we would've had to run away, they wouldn't of made door barging capable of KO'ing people either. I believe this statement is an entirely 100% opinion, the only real fact is the game does have incentive to not being caught, but it has incentives to not caring and being aggressive as well, even ignoring the meta.

#

Also to reiterate : I wouldn't mind social credit being deducted if it wasn't our only method of finishing the game.

#

Also the bit about cameras is my entire angle concerning crime, the reason its so brainless and easy is because the current crime system is brainless and easy. Just leave a building and all fines forgiven, no pressure from enforcers, no man-hunts, nothing. Everybody knows this is an issue and I'm sure the dev already has plans for it by now.

timber token
# hollow frigate > Thematically this doesn't make much sense. An employer for a freelance opportu...

I would totally be ok with side jobs just giving more money and murder cases (and possibly enforcer cases) being the only ones that give social credit, and possibly little to no money. I think the separation would make them more interesting.

Also, about stealth vs action gameplay, I'm pretty sure the tutorial introduces combat as something you can do "when things go wrong." So it's stealth first, and then you have the option to fight back to try and avoid being downed and arrested.

hollow frigate
# timber token I would totally be ok with side jobs just giving more money and murder cases (an...

Honestly government jobs giving social credit primarily and no pay with sketchy side jobs for money but no credit would be a good balance for player progression. Add in that optional clause stuff I mentioned where a job can ask you to not be caught, be aggressive, whoknowswhatelse and we could get a reasonable setup. Imagine being requested by city hall to gather info and fill out a given profile on a set of people and ask you to not be caught for bonus social cred? would be cool to see jobs like that.

timber token
#

Yes, and it'd be nice to see either bonuses or penalties for adhering/not adhering to the jobs that ask for discretion

hollow frigate
#

Would fit with info-gathering corporations today IRL too.

#

As it stands I wouldn't mind if side jobs were less numerous? I understand people have things they might want but it'd be nice if you had to wander a bit more to find a full listing's equivalent, and it refills over time as you do/cancel jobs.

#

Could even tie certain locations to the legality of them. City hall ALWAYS having government jobs but a underground bar would have potentially the most sketchiest jobs. On that note it'd also be nice if jobs swapped out overtime, implying maybe someone did them or the person didn't get help and took the notes down.

sharp wadi
#

Could devide oddjobs into:
Gov Sanctioned: higher Cash + higher SoCr, more punishing to fail.
Petty Crime: lower risk, quick, low cash, no SoCr.
Good Semeritan: No Cash, good SoCr
Espionage: Cash, no SoCr.
General jobs: cash, SoCr depending on issuer.