Water Beaver Overhaul

[radiant arch]

oh, and water stores 60% more units per block / voxel than other factions, so reservoirs are somewhat efficient

[woeful sun]

Tool Finder and/or timbertrees is also highly recommended for finding buildings 🙂

[heavy lodge]

And, are vital for recipe finding too (look how JC was struggling first time playing WhitePaws) ...

[woeful sun]

Both were inspired by JC's struggles

[fallen jetty]

i was considering tool finder but wasnt sure it was compatible, theres a warning on Whitepaws mod page not to run any other mods than its dependencies with it

[fallen jetty]

i was losing my mind looking for clay pit, never even considered it to be in mining...cant remeber what category its in in the other factions

i dont see a timber trees.... @woeful sun

[radiant arch]

https://darkskies.za.net/~norman/timbertrees/v1.0/enUS_Whitepaws.html @fallen jetty

[still frigate]

I run an absurd amount of mods (even with WhitePaws). Feel free to ask me. And tool finder it totally compatible.

[fallen jetty]

good to know

i will slowly start adding some...any recommendations for em?

[heavy lodge]

Welcome to even more suffering 🤣

[fallen jetty]

lol

[still frigate]

save everyday
unstuckify
The the Timber* one that has the mod profile manager or major requirements for me.

Also map resizer for any map I make. 😛

Here is what I am running at this very moment:

MoreModLogs
Lapantouflemagic.1x1x2Storage
BobCommuteBalancer
Harmony
BobingaboutScriptPack
grauschweif.materials
Grauschweif.Scriptpack
KnatteAnka.Materials
KnatteAnka.frogstatue
Tobbert.Ladder
Lapantouflemagic.TexturePack
Lapantouflemagic.Logstairs
ModManager
eMka.ModSettings
eMka.TimberPhysics
ConstantWind
FasterUnderwaterMovement
ModdableToolGroups
Timberborn.IgorZ.CustomTools
Timberborn.IgorZ.Automation
DevButton
RubblesPlzNoExpire
SaveEveryday
eMka.SecondShift
Timberborn.IgorZ.SmartPower
TimberApi.UIBuilder
SteamUpdateButtons
Timberborn.IgorZ.TimberCommons
TimberUi
EditSaveDifficulty
MapResizer
ModdableTimberborn
ConfigurablePumps
ModdableTimberbornAchievements
RubbleSatisfactidy
TImprove
TImprove4Achievements
MoreAchievements
TImprove4Mods
TImprove4Ui
ToolFinder
Tobbert.Unstuckify
Vertical Nav Mesh
Lapantoufleagic.WhitepawsFaction
grauschweif.whitepaws.frogstatue
XtraPlzNoCrashes
alin.Vspread
grauschweif.crappyrope
grauschweif.decoration

TImprove4Mods and its dependencies are what allows mod profiles.

[heavy lodge]

and, XtraPlzNoCrashes save us a lot of headache 😍

[radiant arch]

the last two are nice. albeit i need to give the decorations some overhaul when i'm done with seasons. they feel not-quite-right / incomplete yet somehow

[still frigate]

(to the "they are nice" part.)

[radiant arch]

replatform works too

although i need to ask him to extend it to crappy platform and some

[still frigate]

Waiting for battery_smooth to make flywheels compatible. If I understand correct, he is working on it and I don't wanna bug him about it. He just got them for EmberPelts.

[fallen jetty]

oh nice, i like the new look

of the flywheels

these mods make seeing sunshine difficult

it is a lil chilly out today....

[still frigate]

@radiant arch I went form inspired to make maps so much I barely have time for playing to inspired to make maps so much I am not finishing maps before moving to the next one so I don't loose the inspiration.

Bad Eruption was 011b. I'm working on 014 right now.

[radiant arch]

can't play much for a while sadly. but will have a look at them when i'm done with seasons

[fallen jetty]

nice...quite a list and many of these Ive yet to try

[still frigate]

BBL Gonna sleep some.

[abstract vector]

Don't forget Vertical Nav Mesh

[shell fiber]

How does that even work 🤔

[radiant arch]

can place a regular platform where a tall one is to 'split' that

what's missing is replacing crappy platforms with regular ones maybe

[shell fiber]

Ah

[radiant arch]

or placing dirt for platforms. but not sure he'd add that too

[shell fiber]

Yeah that's what I was wondering

[wary panther]

The one mod I really miss with whitepaws is the pillars from Knatte's staircase mod. Gameplay-wise it makes little difference once you've got all the the skewer platforms and such unlocked, but just aesthetically the square platformw sticking out under the spiral stairs bugs me more than it should.

[wary panther]

Also, I think I found another occupation bug, this time on the calculatorium

Not sure why the one platform in the top-left of the courtyard is required to support the building when the other 4 are not (it also won't allow a path, when the others all do).

And none of it is watertight, which surprised me (I figured at least the pit-and ladder bit and the maybe the 3x2 and 2x2 "wings" fit the "if it looks watertight it probably is" vibe, though I get if if the world is not kind enough to let the relay blocks and such be.

[still frigate]

Have I made an enemy or is there a bot that goes around giving Timberborn maps a negative rating. Every map I have posed gets a single negative rating within 24 hours.

[wary panther]

I mean, with all the beavers your exploding maps have presumably murdered, I have to think you have made many enemies

just not very many who lived to avenge their settlement, rather than died alongside their kin

[still frigate]

-chuckles-

Of course they could be legit dislikes.

[wary panther]

I wonder if lapan actually intended to nerf water wheels by as hard as they are. 1.0 changed the water simulation u7, (the cms numbers of sources all got cut in half because the water simulation now runs full speed, rather than every other second, so it measures half as much twice as often). With the net effect that water wheels make half the power they used to. The other factions all rescaled to match (e.g. the Folktails 3x2 water wheel is 270 hp/cms), but the whitepaws is still 90.

OTOH the whtepaws get amazingly powerful batteries

[still frigate]

Primitive/crappy waterwheels are unbelievably frustrating. Even with a long stretch of powerful water you can't do much since the unlocked shafts don't allow for a lot of sharing.

I find myself avoiding anything that needs power until I have unlocked better. Or using geothermal.

[wary panther]

well, before 1.0 everything was twice as strong as it is now

[still frigate]

@shell fiber is so busy making this better for us that he doesn't get to play it, so what can he do but rely on our feedback for adjustemtns. The problem is, I don't want to mess with his vision so I try not to be too grumbly about things like this and jsut don't use them if I can avoid it.

[wary panther]

yep

but while struggling to scrape together 1000 hp down in a valley I thought of that 1.0 change, and checked an old @storm gulch video to confirm the whitepaws number is the same as it was in u7 (which means it got cut in half vs what it was when he presumably picked to make them a little weaker than folktails)

[brave ivy]

Someone do me a favour. Test if my Seep Cover mod works with Whitepaws and ping me with the result

Its released on Steam and mod.io

[wary panther]

Hmm... any idea what category it's in?

seep-covers_5955562_1.0.12.0\version-1.0\TemplateCollections\TemplateCollection.Buildings.IronTeeth.Whitepaws.blueprint.json seems like the wrong filename

I assume you meant TemplateCollection.Buildings.Whitepaws.SeepCover.blueprint.json

[brave ivy]

Huh

[wary panther]

having both IronTeeth and Whitepaws in the name seems like a typo

[brave ivy]

Should still work though

[wary panther]

game loaded OK, I just can't find them in the toolbar

[brave ivy]

Water section?

[wary panther]

Not with water pumps, not with the badwater items, not with the primitive dams

[brave ivy]

Hmm

[wary panther]

(whitepaws uses luke's moddable tool groups heavily, if that matters)

[brave ivy]

The only reason why it wouldn't load is if whitepaws used a nonstandard template collection name and I didn't notice

[wary panther]

BlockObjectToolGroupSpec; { "Id": "BadWater" } would be the best home, I think, but there is one with Id": "Water" too

[brave ivy]

I typically don't use those because I don't want to make it a dependency, and if you combine vanilla specs with mod specs from a mod that isn't installed, the game crashes with a sec does not exist error

[wary panther]

Water section would work well enough

I'm not quite sure what to look for when you say "if whitepaws used a nonstandard template collection name". But I'm running on 6.2.8 from https://mod.io/g/timberborn/m/water-beaver-overhaul#description, not the older 6.2.5 on steam, and I know lapan just rearranged the folders quite a bit to make things more compatible

especially the needs and goods, I think

So if you were looking at the steam release mine might be different

[brave ivy]

oh, yeah, definitely uses something nonstandard

Try this version

[wary panther]

Ok, now they're showing up (grouped with the pumps)

1x high even fits this rather awkward seep nicely

[brave ivy]

Looks decent too

How's the cost?

[wary panther]

Pretty cheap - you've got it at the right stage in the tech tree I think (locked behind having gears and tar, but the quantities are pretty cheap).

I'm sure if it was actually whitepaws it would require a blueprint that had to be researched, but that's probably more whitepaws-specific faffing about than you care to do.

I'd say double it to 60 tar, add 4 scaffolds (for that fact that it's 2x2 stackable, which also locks it behind the architect's lodge) and maybe some metal fasteners

the next couple of "tech tree" gateways for advanced buildings are usually giant logs (to put it behind the tree nursery) or the clockwork controllers (to put it behind the ENS), or glowing fluid (for underground/mining stuff), and none of those feels right here

plus I don't know that capping a seep should have to be that far down the tree

putting it roughly at the same point as the adjustable floodgate feels balanced

[radiant heart]

the aquifer description is a bit confusing, do i need the pipe in water or not? Like it says it requires access to water but also it says it extracts water from the ground.

[wary panther]

Which one? The Aquifer Drill (which is new for 1.0, and works just like the stock factions) or the small aquifer pump that goes on two triangle-roof buildings?

[radiant heart]

the one that goes on 2 buildings

[wary panther]

the pipe is where the water will come out

so it needs to be drilled down at least one level below the buildings, but it doesn't have to be in existing water

you'll get a small flow of slightly contaminated water

like 10% or so, IIRC?

[radiant heart]

ok, thanks, it's the "require acces to water" thing that got me confused

well, that sucks

not surprising tho the previous aquifer was way to powerfull

[wary panther]

at least that's how it worked in u7 - I haven't built that one in 1.0

basically, you could use it to fill irrigation ponds/canals

and the contamination was low enough that you'd get most of the irrigation range and healthy crops

[radiant heart]

last i played was U5 still got a lot to catch up

[wary panther]

(and it ignores badtides)

[still frigate]

That is also how it goes in 1.0

[still frigate]

Map Makers Help:

(and anyone else with ideas)

I am struggling with adapting some old maps and a new idea. I want these maps to be able to support WhitePaws out of the gate so to speak. But these are map without player accessible pure water. At least normally. All surface water is a mix of bad and good with varying degree of contamination.

WhitePaws wont bathe or gather clay in that crap! (The told me so in no uncertain terms!)

The simple solution would be a lido, but they need rope. Individual showers wont deal with the clay issue. Plus, come on, if you cant have the irrigating tower pool the beavers want the river bath. The like admiring their fellow beavers as they wash. That glistening shiny wet white fur and those pink... um... noses. I mean how else does one explain such reproduction rates?

So, no lido without ropes and no pure water for clay and bathing. As a map make what can I do to solve this and NOT give them enough pure water for drinking and crops while in the process?

I have a few thought but they sorta suck. So, @radiant arch, @shell fiber , @crisp parcel, and @[anyone else who has ideas] please help my poor brain solve this paradox.

[fallen jetty]

FYI...second shift works on whitepaws

[still frigate]

Yes. It was in my big list of mods I run with WhitePaws. 🙂

But that you for pointing it out none the less.

[fallen jetty]

i didnt see it in your list

but added all the other ones

[fallen jetty]

ah...the modder name in front disguised it

[still frigate]

Yep. That thows me all the time.

But I'm anticipating you finding something I haven't that works nice with them and gives me something I would enjoy. Then I'll pounce on and add to my list.

[fallen jetty]

who can share some pics of water storage with these guys...I have no clue where to start in building a reservoir, no dam or floodgates...I have no clue where to start

[still frigate]

Search my picture history and @radiant arch 's.

If it is early, just double-height tanks. Mid is medium tanks or water storage houses depending on my population.

Then the P&L liquid loges.

Finally the gargantuan water that add 30 beavers and stores 8,000 water.

[cloud flax]

I think easiest would be too add ropes to broken kart, but do we have that long to break the broken kart, I dont think so

Adding back the leaky bath but water will as well be tooooo precious in these maps

[radiant arch]

make a mod for a fluid dump ruin building? that can be repaired haah

leaky bath and closeby pines might work too, but that's scary good timing needed to have the bath in place - and mixed water means extra number of pumps needed

[cloud flax]

Maybe something can be done earlier game with aquifer drill? A beaver powered water wheel that pumped water that can be used for both showering and drinking?

Cuz such maps for sure will have bore holes for aquifer drills

[still frigate]

Aquifer drills require a blueprint. This has to be within 10 days of game start or it's going to be game over.

Also, most maps I've played on and definitely most maps I make don't have a aquifer anywhere near the starting area. You have to work your way to it.

If I'm making a mixed water map, having an aquifer available too easily defeats its purpose. The challenge is over.

The map lore that initially drove this train of through. An older map of mine.

[radiant arch]

so really a leaky bath / alternative without the irrigation or primitive fluid dump or something else a mod would need to provide?

cheating option is giving a pre-filled freshwater spring that slowly evaporates

or setting a bomb to destroy a luck seep early on?

either would mean a ticking timer on clean water

[still frigate]

My only idea sorta went that way. Underground with little room I made this:

Look at how low that water pressure is.

[cloud flax]

Am talking bout new building very early game. Maybe just logs, pune resin and a screw

[radiant arch]

can put in water with map for extra surprise (they only learn after days the seep is almost fake haha

[still frigate]

Yeah. That is exactly how it would go down. Does it seem like a good solution?

[radiant arch]

hmm, strong enough to cure thirst for 1 beaver! nice!

[cloud flax]

Guess this will be the only solution then

[radiant arch]

can't come up with anything different without making special mod for this case. .

i like the idea of that random spring that looks hopeful, but is not

[still frigate]

Right now the start area on my current project is bleak. But I'm still setting up the water sources.

1 dynamite and you would have water, but also a deadly flood.

I might make those all strength zero.

Simulated dynamite opening it up...

Yeah, those all need to go to strength 0. They will still make a tank.

Ohhhh! That underground 0.0125 strength seep WITH a core to blow it after X number of days. Destroy the seep.

hrm.... blow it up or leave it mocking the player?

I do thank you both for your suggestions.

[radiant arch]

imho can be left to mock at that strength

bombs need a good story telling for me, so not sure they make sense here, with how weak the seep is

[still frigate]

Way beyond my meager skill.

unrelated:
I tried to make this look like an open maw with teeth. To me it just looks like a PAC-MAN. 😢

[brave ivy]

Those are the prices lapan suggested, compared to that floodgate, it feels really cheap.

[still frigate]

There is no room here to put in a pump.

First bad tide will ruin it.

[radiant arch]

i just figured the conversion wasn't in voxel per hour haha. much stronger than i thought!

[radiant arch]

did it double with 1.0? U7 would say ~22 units per day? might be plenty still..
(the space can fit 160 units max, so ~0.125m filled per day? minus evaporation)

[brave ivy]

how's that look for a seep cover?

[still frigate]

0.0125

[radiant arch]

tar and metal fixations look kinda too much for such an early / simple building
the 30 tar seemed more realistic, maybe 40 and metal fixations shouldn't be more'n 20 imho, given the other costs.

[brave ivy]

I'm just looking at the Floodgate Dam and like... what even is the dam, and why should it be more expensive than a Seep Barrier

[radiant arch]

0.0125cms ~ 2.75 voxel per day in U7, which would give up to 0.1375m filled per day on those 20 voxel available here, but part evaporates again?
but i not know if this holds for 1.0 too or sources got stronger.

[still frigate]

That looks scary.

That is the mixed water from my vanity signature.

[brave ivy]

wuffer

[radiant arch]

cause it's bigger and looking more mechanic haha
yeah, looking at regular dam costs your proposal isn't off i guess.

[brave ivy]

I admit, compared to Vanilla, it's way more expensive, but then white paws everything is way more expensive.

then again, you look at vanilla storages and it's like, Why does the medium tank cost so much more than a large stockpile?

It's why for Emberpelts and Leaf Coats, I change their costs entirely.

and even changed the textures of the large tank to remove the metal to reflect the new all wood cost.

[fallen jetty]

im still trying to figure out what the gears are doing in those barrel tanks

in reg game

[brave ivy]

I presume to act like a water pump to get the liquid to the top of the tank from the bottom entrance

Most of the things in Vanilla like this make sense when you look at them in context of when and why it was added.

Like the large tank was originally the Biofuel tank, from back when storages were either the Warehouse that stored multiple items of anything that didn't have dedicated storage... or was a special item with a dedicated storage (like Logs going in a pile, Water going in a tank, etc)

Biofuel tank was retrofit to be a universal liquid storage with the same costs when item storage became catagorized, when the original context was an endgame fuel storage.

[radiant arch]

just checked my save and a 60 wide, 2 high dam did cost around
~ 2250 logs
~ 675 fixations
~ 900 tar
...
vanilla costs would have been 1920 logs..
and doubling height is more than double the cost even with whitepaws where it's less with vanilla..

[radiant arch]

hmm.. actually the vanilla wonder is cheaper than one of my random dams for just building and filling it once..

[crisp parcel]

The first idea that comes to mind is an area that has contact with badwater either from the sides or below and is located at the edge of the map, making farming and water collection impossible. Then, a waterfall from above, ensuring that the water flows directly out of the map, forcing the player to build a certain amount of materials before they can use/dam this water.

Another idea is a water source located at a distance of X from the starting position, which is currently contaminated with a badwater source. However, the player can use pre-made channels and dams they build to divert the water to their starting position over time. To make it more difficult, there could be additional badwater along the route or already active in the pre-made channels, requiring further work from the player before they can make effective use of it. Bombs along this channel could further delay the work and create extra tasks, or they could divert new badwater flows or badwater sources that become active over time.

... One could also build a tower with a water source at the top, which then flows down into a badwater basin. This basin is filled directly via canals and badwater springs to make it difficult to drain the badwater. A partially destroyed bridge, which the player can rebuild to divert the water and make it usable, could also be included.

[shell fiber]

your first hater ! time to celebrate 🎊

[shell fiber]

oh, really ?

[shell fiber]

that seems like an auto-UI thing stemming from the water input pipe script 🤔

[shell fiber]

the kart does trop a dozen ropes i think 🤔

[shell fiber]

this thing, it's a 3x3 floogate that tops at 2.65.
basically the metal frame lines up with the upgraded primitive dams, while the brown part moves up and down.

[cloud flax]

Breaking of broken kart is too late for showers i believe

[shell fiber]

it's pretty expensive and is blueprint-locked because that is (was ?) the only way to defeat badtides for a long time

now there is the valve house that has one valve voxel, which problematically enough can effecively do the same job

[radiant arch]

somewhat, yet not exactly. just much earlier

[cloud flax]

New floodgate very much appreciated

[shell fiber]

i actually wanted to give it a very low flow, like 0.3-0.5, but if you move the cursor to maximum it just lets unlimited flow through, which makes no sense. why does the script even takes a max flow value ?

[radiant arch]

that does need a fix for sure!

always set mine to such low values, believing they are odd otherwise

[cloud flax]

Maybe limit the input to before max? Or that's not possible

[shell fiber]

that's the issue, even if i set the max at 0.3, as soon as you take the slider to what would be 0.35 it goes into unlimited mode and spills eveything 😓

i'll try to untick some checkbox to see if it's just weirdly labeled
edit : nope, changes nothing, or nothing i can see

[still frigate]

Some interesting ideas, but the player has 10 days to provide pure water bathing or the colony is dead. They refuse to work if they are dirty.

@radiant arch Old Blue Toe?

[radiant arch]

well, the builders don't get dirty as the cart provides clean fur too

[still frigate]

Yes but they will soon starve

[crisp parcel]

The ideas are still possible; you'd just have to build the chosen one in such a way that it fits the timeframe. 10 days is very short for that idea tho
Alternatively: You could build several small rivers that don't offer any farming areas, and water sources would periodically appear and then be destroyed again by a bomb after x days. This could be timed so that the player can clean their beavers during the first ~6 or more cycles. And by then, they would have to have established/redirected a fixed water route.

[thorn dune]

you could give one square with clean water, falling from high above, with open space on three sides and one tile to build the shower head on.
with enough water falling on it it'd be deep enough to shower but utterly useless for everything else. if the badwater is immeidately below all land would be contaminated too

[radiant arch]

given claypit isn't needed till later can skip on that too and ask to use broken cart dynamite and ropes to solve that problem?

[still frigate]

Every now and then I come up with an idea that I think is so unique and so innovative. I feel like I will never top it.

And then I do.

I am working on something right now that I am so excited about and want to show it off, but until it's done I'd rather not. It's much less impressive as a work in progress.

[brave ivy]

So i guess this is too expensive? @shell fiber

[fallen jetty]

no sleep tadoay gonna be rough

MAKE MORE BEAVERS! you dang cousins of the white rat!

this map is gonna be all brambles

im gonna need mega storage to get rid of em all...when does the flamethrower mod come out?

they need some goats

[radiant arch]

starved by hungry goats is a nice end

[fallen jetty]

lol

https://prnt.sc/CgotW2gtXvI1

[shell fiber]

for me yes, the original price was just fine to me. (50/10/12/4/50/30) + 200/250 science

my reasonning is that water seeps are weak in the first place (flood them and they're disabled) so the ability to seal them is really not important, which mean that tech-wise it shouldn't be very far.

in terms of what it does, it just opens and close, in lore it would just seal up the source and apply a little bit of pressure on it to force clog it.

so for me it's really a 2x2 watertight box with a few moving parts you slap on the seep, tech wise it's nothing, just some metal for structural integrity, fixtures for good measure, tar for caulking and we're all good.

i wouldn't put scaffolding because scaffoldings are really for aerial structures for me, this kind of heavy ground based building has no need for it.

then wether the floodgate dam is too expensive or not is an entirely different issue 🤔

[brave ivy]

So, delete scaffolding

What are those numbers...
50 planks, 10 gears, 12 scrap, 4 metal blocks, 50 fixtures, 30 tar?

[shell fiber]

oh, sorry, i typed while looking at your previous message

😅

[radiant heart]

i see, will have to test it out but need those ENS up first anyway, not there yet

[brave ivy]

Its fine. What's the cost relationship between metal blocks and metal fixtures?

[shell fiber]

uuh 2 metal and a bit of coal makes 3 fixtures i think ?

[radiant arch]

metal block: 5 scrap metal, 5 coal
metal fixation: 3 per 2 scrap metal + some coal

[shell fiber]

yes

[radiant arch]

so metal block would be about 4x more expensive?

[brave ivy]

Feels odd to only have 4 metal blocks and 50 fixings

[radiant arch]

1.67 logs for 1 early coal (charcoal)

[brave ivy]

Probably reduce it to more like 12 fixings

Maybe 20

[radiant arch]

sounds fair

the metal likely only reinforces the frame, so fixations would bind planks to that or something

[brave ivy]

From how lapan described it, the main frame is made from scrap, the metal blocks are for the metal plates on the top surface

[radiant heart]

how long have berries been in the large farm and not the other thingny? such great quality of life, wonder how lapan got conveinced of that

[brave ivy]

How much does a 1x4 overhang cost?

[radiant arch]

there's none

[brave ivy]

No overhangs in whitepaws?

[radiant arch]

there's only a side-platform attachable

[radiant heart]

1 is the longest

[radiant arch]

and that's a platform + some scraps cost-wise

[radiant heart]

or the corner edition

[brave ivy]

Well, what's that cost?

[radiant arch]

or skewered edition.. both corner and skewer cost metal block instead of scraps. but not really any different otherwise

[radiant arch]

1 platform and few scrap metal (3?)

[radiant heart]

can't tell the numbers out of my heaad

[brave ivy]

https://tenor.com/view/jackie-chan-gif-24496461

[radiant heart]

well, i'm not beavering 12~14h a day atm, so, yeah, sry

[brave ivy]

Not you, my mind is having trouble with these responses

[radiant heart]

kk, lol

[brave ivy]

I'll just make the changes mentioned when I get home.

[still frigate]

WhitePaws is an alien experience. I love it, but I love challenging.

I am starting to suffer Timberborn map makers occupational hazards. My brain is rebelling and I'm having trouble seeing 3D blocks because there's not enough contrast in the map editor. 🤣

[shell fiber]

how comes no one told me that ? 😂
it's a remnant from upgrading the mod to 1.0, i just forgot to restore it 😅

[radiant heart]

lol, me and my big mouth

[still frigate]

I thought it was intentional.

[radiant heart]

at least i got them planted, you have no power on that now 🤣

[radiant arch]

i never even noticed

[still frigate]

I can only report on errors that I see. I can't report on errors that are against your intention when I'm not always cognizant of what said intention is. 🤣

[radiant heart]

it's called experience, something that nice doesn't fit the suffering mentra of the mod, was really confused when i saw it yesterday

even kept a free space between edge of the map and ENSs future places since i've eard the rumors about that thing needing power

never know what to expect

[shell fiber]

there's no overhangs like the ones in vanilla factions, you have "skewer" platforms that rely on using the "floor" part of the voxel supporting them. basically they all cost 1 scaffolding + something that varies on the specific model. the biggest one is this one costing 2 scaffolding and 4 metal beams

[radiant arch]

the long one wasn't enabled yet, was it?

[still frigate]

My old brain has trouble remembering some of the features I absolutely love about this game from playthrough to playthrough. The mod is massive and I love it but stuff just keeps disappearing from my memory. Old-Timer's disease I guess.

[shell fiber]

is not ?

[radiant heart]

nope

[shell fiber]

😭

[radiant heart]

only the one long atm ( and can't stack them anymore)

used to be able to make a 2 by putting 2 ones

[still frigate]

I've had to dev-mode the old 2-part one in when I want something like that.

[radiant heart]

after 3khours on that mod, some stuff sticks no matter how old you are

[radiant arch]

i found out they could go infinite ... sorry

[shell fiber]

yeah but in some weird situations they end up vanishing

[radiant heart]

lol, back in U5, after 2 i could not find a way to make more stick

[still frigate]

Yes. It has happened to me. But now you can activate that new one and ALL will be good. 😛

My left and right paws are really out of sync today. Much more than normal. Add that to my tremors and it's a wonder anyone can read anything I type.

[radiant arch]

in U6/ U7 it was enough to place anything below them to make them extend. so putting temporary platforms (no need to complete) was all it needed

[radiant heart]

i see, that's funny

[still frigate]

As some of the weird word choices and spelling errors will show, I'm doing a lot of speech to text right now.

[radiant heart]

one i have issues atm is wrapping my brain around you can't build a bridge from the tip, makes sense but so used to do it

[radiant arch]

made diorama fun, as i could just build another layer over the ground and place wonder in there 🙂

[still frigate]

I still do it. The one thing is the base has to already exist.

[radiant heart]

gonna have to look at it again then, might have messed up something, was trying to cross a 4 wide river with 2x 2 long bridges facing each other so it doesn't look dumb with a platform in the middle but they just would not build the second one

( ok can 100% be me running out of ropes but iirc i had some left in stock)

[radiant heart]

ouf, WB diaorama nowadays... tought about it but chickened out

[radiant arch]

it's possible, but very very slow and forced to switch recipes a lot due to limited population and space..

[radiant heart]

yeah, i can see that, falls more into the "tidious micromanagement" then actually hard i would be more enclined to try

[still frigate]

The Rain Trees

There is still a lot of work to be done, but the core of the map and the concept is done.

One more

Current height is 109 levels. There will probably be a few more before I am done.

The bathing and clay water is not active at the start of the game but does activate the first day. I may kill the delay. Not sure. But I wanted to time how long it takes to fill.

[cloud flax]

Haven't seen this one!

[still frigate]

I want it!

[cloud flax]

Me tooooo

The raintrees look awesome!!!

[still frigate]

Starting contamination isn't that bad! Only 11%

Still can't bathe or get clay in it.

Cool. Despite being directly under the start, the river bath is 57 distance from the DC. It -should- be inconvenient!

seep activated at about 18 hours on day 1

Appears DRY

fail!

In a LIVE game 0.0125 does not beat evaporation. This is 4 days in!
@radiant arch

doubled it and it is working. 0.025

[shell fiber]

actually that's interesting, it makes the grass green, but doesn't actually makes flowing water 🤔

[still frigate]

Yeah. Lots of uses for that in devious map making.

[radiant arch]

moisture works with any thing > 0

contamination too!

(a contaminated drain would still ruin the soil around it for example)

[radiant arch]

about how fast does it fill those 20 tiles?

[livid zephyr]

Interesting indeed

[still frigate]

Here is another fail.

Contamination at the "default" bad water collection block is less than the polluted lake. /laughs

[still frigate]

Less than a day at 0.025

[shell fiber]

hmm... i think i'm onto something regarding the 2x2 plants 🤔

[still frigate]

Map editor time.

[shell fiber]

also, this

[still frigate]

While I am fixing contamination levels I'm going to expand the cavern so a water pump will fit and see what my beavers can get. That will go away later.

[radiant arch]

fill height in m after a day would be enough - it's 8 units per voxel

[shell fiber]

this is still slightly wrong 🤔

[brave ivy]

so how's this look now?

The price of it is so radically different than other factions.

[shell fiber]

seems good to me 🙂

maybe they could be cheaper for other factions ? after all you can disable a seep with 8 levees, that's like... 160 logs ?

[radiant arch]

96 even..

[shell fiber]

i also adjusted the build site for the first upgrade so it's more visible

[radiant arch]

advantage of this cover is it works with automation, so it's actually pretty cool to have them with whitepaws too

[radiant arch]

is it possible to select the primitive dam below more easily now?

or remove path from on top of MK3 dam upgrades?

colliders been odd for both of that

[radiant arch]

common problem i found was when building both and wanting to pause / prioritise the primitive dam it's super difficult to select just that

[shell fiber]

oh, damn you're right

[shell fiber]

why would you need to select the base dam ?

[radiant arch]

lack of resources or changed priorities

[shell fiber]

ah

ah

okay, i'll look into it

[still frigate]

I love that path on top!

[radiant arch]

me too. just you can't select a path on it rn

was a little inconvienient when i wanted to replace path with building. no real issue, like with the primitive dam, just inconvinient and a little confusing

[shell fiber]

gotta go for today, but it's on the list 👍

[still frigate]

Enough tweaks maybe we'll get a new build tomorrow?

hrm... weird arbitrary idea. No oak tress pre-planted on this map. Alive or dead.

[radiant arch]

no pink blossoms..

no lemons either..

[still frigate]

What's a lemon? <pouts>

Seriously though, I do hope they get added back in.

Well... major map editing must happen if I want the deep mines on the upper layer. Not a single tree has room for one.

Using 0-strength water sources to see what squares reach to the bottom.

[radiant arch]

i like the idea of vertical mining in a fossilised tree

certainly would put the dirt drills there with vanilla factions to hollow them out ^^

[still frigate]

/laughs.

I can just see that chaos since those trees are the map's water sources

[still frigate]

No guarantee it can go nuclear, but here is one.

That was the only tree that was easy enough to edit it in.

[radiant arch]

looks fine to me. can dirt-block the fountain

just problem: can't connect power or access

oh.. wait.. can dynamite it from below!

works 🙂

[still frigate]

There is another place nuclear ready. It jusy isn't a tree.

It also needs interesting topography, but I'll add that.

[fallen jetty]

me trying to follow whats going on in here
https://tenor.com/view/confused-no-nope-gif-13134027

these whitepaws have me feeling like that time I qualified for precalculus 2 in college and had only done algebra 2 in high school...

[still frigate]

It will make more sense when I start an actual run with this map.

[fallen jetty]

ok...timprove4UI...great mod!

[still frigate]

@radiant arch I have 3 deep mines on top. Two should be reactor ready. Also repaired the plumbing and level 1 after my mad mountain making.

Still working on repairing and cleaning up level 2.

Level 3 will be easy because I haven't done anything with it yet.

But to make this mountain how I wanted to, I did some hard slicing of ground blocks. /laughs

[fallen jetty]

im a fan of tall and ridiculous heights in this game... so very interested in this, and happy someone showed me the map resizer mod (i used to use the old quadruple height mod, and missed it so much). I started working on my own "Mountain Map" yesterday

[still frigate]

There is a great mod for doing maps, and it has a wonderful mountain tool.
"Extra Terrain Tools"

All maps I share require the resizer.

[fallen jetty]

ill grab that one later on to work on the map more

[still frigate]

And sometime you just have to chop it out and start over. /laughs

[still frigate]

Sure, I can be masochistic... writing with trees.

And, I changed my mind about oaks. I'll green this up when I'm done spamming my vanity signature with wood. 😛

[still frigate]

Much better

I have to keep my reputation as a mad man with a bomb! -- apologies to Matt Smith.

Not as clear in the editor, but this will look fabulous in a WhitePaws run!

(Can't have the oaks spreading and messing up my writing.)

[livid zephyr]

Oh gee... thx for letting brambles have free reign for unsuspecting people lol

[fallen jetty]

definitely one faction the vertical spreading mod is not fun on

[radiant arch]

certainly a faction that has vertical spreading active by default 😉

[fallen jetty]

does it?

just evil

[radiant arch]

you ever tried do kill a bramble in badwater? 😉

[fallen jetty]

not yet...I had to restart on a smaller map that has less brambles on it, i didnt realize theyd spread that fast

[radiant arch]

oh, they are pretty friendly and not replace other plants (usually) or buildings, not even places marked for either

[heavy lodge]

if not becomes thorn, it's manageable 🤣

[radiant arch]

too bad april 1st is over ..

[heavy lodge]

can wait until Halloween 🤔

[radiant arch]

oh i certainly do have a halloween note in my list for seasons mod

no way to have autumn without proper pumpkins, is there?

[heavy lodge]

Good, water beavers have pumpkins .

[still frigate]

By the time a player makes it to the top there should be 80-90% brambke coverage.

[fallen jetty]

https://tenor.com/view/trees-high-when-the-weed-hits-sword-fight-battle-gif-13475989

[heavy lodge]

sure will solve the issue with builders have nothing to do . Make them kill brambles 🔫

[livid zephyr]

https://tenor.com/view/beaver-flamethrower-chaos-revenge-beavers-gif-11659244487343037257

[radiant arch]

that escalated quickly 🍿

[still frigate]

That is the top as I am probably going to leave it. Lower levels need attention now.

[radiant arch]

no big branches?

top level works fine tbh. just the trees, they look like they had beaver incidents (not a bad thing, just a little unexpected)

[still frigate]

Part of me wants to play it as LeafCoats just to build giant tree houses on the petrified trees. 😛

[cloud flax]

Pumpkin lamps in your decorations mod for Halloween update:P

[still frigate]

Time to see how far I get before having to abandon and go back to the map editor. for something I forgot 😛

So many typos in that.

[still frigate]

Well... I was careless making part of this and there are metal scrap ruins blocking access to the bathing pool.

map problem: There are supposed to be free stairs here. I noticed it but forgot to fix it. dev fixed & continue.

[still frigate]

Passageway was cleared in time.

Cut it a bit close

Hrm... I provided 2 routes between level 2 and 3, but none between 1 & 2. However, there are abundant resources. Beavers should be able to make dynamite and tunnel their way up.

Or unlock ladders and take the unhealthy climb through 11% polluted water.

Or should I add a tunnel between L1 & L2?

*If a player is paying attention the other side of L1 has 400 explosives in an underground cache by the badwater river.

Yeah... with as many freebies as I give in this map the player can unlock tunnels and blast their own way up.

[devout obsidian]

use badwater first...or are the resistant to that too?

[still frigate]

New brambles can grow in contaminated water.

[fallen jetty]

where can i make an anvil?

[livid zephyr]

factory? i think...

odds are you'll need to tear something down that used your initial one

[fallen jetty]

in the wikidot it says factory but in game its workshop

i havent used it yet

bout ready too and was curious how to make more

[livid zephyr]

well, if you're using your first on that, then you're good. thats where you make more

pretty sure... going off memory of only a couple completed runs so dont take my word as gospel haha

[fallen jetty]

actually Im playing the tutorial and have to use it on a library

gotta make some metal fasteners first

been playing this all day and still havent unlocked any science

[livid zephyr]

dont be surprised you might not get close to launching a wonder before cycle 50 conservatively for a first run

[fallen jetty]

i have a super easy map I made that Im testing the mod factions on

[livid zephyr]

and balancing production chains is little more than a suggestion for quite a while

you'll be switching recipes on buildings a lot

because if you build a lot so you dont have to do that, your population will just balloon out of control

[woeful sun]

timbertrees knows

[livid zephyr]

i feel like that should be pinned to the channel haha

[ivory flicker]

I assume its intentional that the mini covered walkway and the corner one doesnt give roof bonuses?

[cloud flax]

Reminds me to make updated tech tree

[cloud flax]

Make sure you first use it in primitive iron works. The workshop/factory is still far away. You will need to pile up on goods from the iron works, then demolish it to again get the Anvil and use it to build the workshop where you create another anvil to make the old primitive iron works

[radiant arch]

or 3 of them, 1 worker each 😉

[cloud flax]

Well I had like 5/6 factories last play through and god knows how many primitive iron works hehehehe

[ivory flicker]

for the pit and ladder lodges, the ones with doors can be in the middle of the stack right?

[devout obsidian]

Any ide how to connect power pls?

[radiant arch]

backside has a round symbol - there's a billboard explaining it too

whitepaws only connect to those symbols, not transfer between buildings

[devout obsidian]

Only symbol on that lodge is next to door. And you say even if i put a wheel there it would not transfer upward?

[radiant arch]

on the back there's one too. not have the game open to show rn.
it wont do anything if power wasn't connected to that

wont transfer through the lower building or through buildings in general, no

[devout obsidian]

is there any other way to transfer power up in tutorial?

[radiant arch]

shafts?

you should have 2 gears from the broken cart by that stage?

might not be enough for that height difference, but maybe some dynamite or crappy platforms can make it work?

[devout obsidian]

tha't only possible 1 level up cuz vertical shaft is locked

[cloud flax]

There should be "z" shaped one i believe which transfers power exactly 1 step above

[devout obsidian]

both hauler lodges look like this from back, seems they really have only onw power port, useless

[radiant arch]

haulers have no power

[devout obsidian]

yep, 1 step sideways, if you need 2 levels, must use precious dynamite

[radiant arch]

or crappy platform, yes

can make more dynamite later. just there for cases like this and acessing badwater for example

[cloud flax]

Best bet would be to shift the sawmill 1 step down. Would not need gears at all, simple direct connection

[devout obsidian]

what is the port near the door for, then?

[cloud flax]

Those are windows

[shell fiber]

i removed it in 1.0

[cloud flax]

Power sockets look different

Maybe add building billboards as part of tutorials if they aren't already? @ lapan

[shell fiber]

the symbol next to the door near hauler lodges is just a mark you find on hauler houses

you probably should activate the tutorial, and/or build the "how to connect power" billboard

[devout obsidian]

corporate says it's the same image 🤣

oky i'm a moron

[ivory flicker]

population control is a tricky mistress isnt it

idk how ppl manage it and still make stacks of ladder and pit lodges for haulers and builders

[radiant arch]

i never use those tbh

[ivory flicker]

i only use them this once for their ladder capability since the map is pretty vertical

terraces

[radiant arch]

might come in useful when you go big city (1000 beavers) and need workforce later, but given there's tower upgrades without population for those, i rarely need anything but the 5-hauler-lodges

[radiant arch]

these are tricky indeed..

[ivory flicker]

5 hauler lodges? 5 haulers and 6 inhabitants?

[radiant arch]

great option early on imho

[ivory flicker]

the map is pretty terrible for waterpump placements too

water pump, water wheel, river baths

[radiant arch]

but than it's small zipline towers soon and those combine well with triangle roofs and fit hauler / builder towers 🙂

[ivory flicker]

no place for rice

[radiant arch]

a very common problem..

can you use dynamite to landscape and fluid dumps?

(rice can be grown underground too - very useful at times)

[ivory flicker]

not at the tech tree for dynamites yet, or i havent looked into it

needs alchemist i think?

dumps require a lot of space with this faction, but also free well being bonus

[ivory flicker]

underground as in?

[radiant arch]

digging out a pond underground. only needs to be 2 high

can be easier than making space above ground depending on map

[ivory flicker]

i think terraces is definitely one of those maps

[radiant arch]

it also can function for irrigation (given you need some pillars to support roof) and helpful if it's right below the surface as to add zipline towers down there

[ivory flicker]

do you by chance have tips regarding ziplines? my district is pretty sprawled

[radiant arch]

ziplines?? having one near DC is helpful

and than i use them with the triangle buildings to overlap the harvesting / farming / woodcutting areas

[ivory flicker]

i feel like DC in this game is never a place beavers visit often

[radiant arch]

so as to cover more ground with less workers (they grow more efficient with well-being so often can handle multiple times their basic reach)

[shell fiber]

iirc terraces was a pretty awful map to play this faction 🤔

[ivory flicker]

oh definitely, the bridges to build down before having stackable platforms ive built

[radiant arch]

i usually have some hub near it, like cooking or entertainment (replacing things no longer needed slowly)

other than that i love to use balloons to interconnect my ziplines and max the reach of them. especially for the big farmhouse, as those cover almost all of the harvesting - and later for the tree nursery

[ivory flicker]

i must be missing something, as far as i see the only entertainment that the beavers visit is the pentaque thingy

and lido, but that must be near water

[radiant arch]

there's drinks and foods, there's frog statue (haha) and very late the dance hall. the irrigation bath tower, trebuchet, .. not too many, but they add up.
and placing statues and things there is usually the most efficient

[ivory flicker]

i dont think i have the statues mod at the moment

[radiant arch]

regular statues: the pregnant beaver, pointer, upside-down, ..

give a nice boost to well-being. though foods are most important

[ivory flicker]

oh yea those

i dont know how worth it they are bc science is still scarce

[radiant arch]

will change at some point - than they add a little more efficiency

you placed the two billboards that give +1 well-being each?

[ivory flicker]

also well being improve lifespan... so more beavers yay

yea the news board range is pretty ridicilous

and the your pain is my sustenance or something

do you know how many beavers a river bath can adequitely support?

im nearing like 100 beavers and i dont think 1 bath can support that much

[radiant arch]

not sure. depends on workhours too and walk-distance. but usually i have one per 60 i believe.
get's fuzzy with too many irrigation bath towers

[ivory flicker]

theres just so little water space in the map for it

[radiant arch]

there's showers too. and making artifical ponds with fluid dumps.

also irrigation bath tower is cheap once it's unlocked

[ivory flicker]

that doubles as cleanfur buff?

[radiant arch]

bath: lido + clean; shower = clean only (like river bath); lido: lido only, no clean

[radiant arch]

hmm. an possibly underestimated hack to clean fur: having beavers walk / swim through water does the trick too

@still frigate or it would, if there was clean water to begin with 😉

[cloud flax]

That does??!?! Damn i should pay more attention

[radiant arch]

i forget about it often too, but it saved my population at times

or did something change with 1.0? not tested recently..

[cloud flax]

I thought it only provided wet fir, not clean fur... It changed it seems

[radiant arch]

was that different need?? oh. i might have misremembered that one

need to check now

.. checked again and seemed soaking in water does add to it

they need to soak for 2h / d to cover the minimal need, so it might not do much by itself

[shell fiber]

being in water should provide a little bit of clean fur need indeed, unless i foolishly forgot to restore that.

it's more or less a gimmick, but can be helpful early on.

it also help scatter the timing at which beavers will want to go take a bath

[radiant arch]

it's in the blueprints with the current version

[ivory flicker]

I gnerally dislike it, bc i need to remember to close it when badtide hits.... until automation

[shell fiber]

which building ?

[ivory flicker]

Not building, the having beaver go through cleanwater

[shell fiber]

oh, ah, yeah, me too actually.
it's hard to use unless you have completely bad-water-proofed an area. but that makes automation more interesting actually 🤔

[ivory flicker]

This is what i got

I will say again, population control is fickle mistress

also im very happy with my use of the architect lodge

[ivory flicker]

Time to start attempting to use another water source

also i know pausing levee building is considered cheating, what about pausing architect lodge when its being used as stairs

and by extension, pausing zipline stations, since they still work as zipline but not housing

[radiant arch]

your choice really, isn't it?

have architect make platform and add a stair and you have that lodge replaced

[ivory flicker]

well originally i had stairs instead of that architect lodge, i wanted to use the lodge as stairs. ultimately i will still pause it, i just wanted to know what u people think

for the zipline, i think its definitely cheating

[radiant arch]

as you likely need 2-3 of them soon anyway it might not make sense long to pause it. better keep getting more (and better) food next imho

[ivory flicker]

agreed

altho currently its water that is threatening me when long droughts hit

[radiant arch]

yeah, i wondered how there is little storage or reservoir

pump upgrades might proof helpful too

less beds that way

[ivory flicker]

If i recall, spicy soda kinda "dupe" water right? as in, more thirst for the same amount of water

[ivory flicker]

I thought i have a lot of storage, almost 2k for 90 beavers, i guess not

[radiant arch]

oh, only noticed 600. 2k is ~10 days just for drinking

might fall short if wanting to run library, cooking and especially paper making

but yeah, that should be enough

[ivory flicker]

got about like 300 left after the last drought, filled up by day 3

im also pretty heavy on irigation lodges on this run

[radiant arch]

i often use them too. but preferably fluid dumps still, since they give no beds and cover just as much area (or more + rice farming)

[ivory flicker]

thats what the conquering of this water source will enable me to do, rice farming

altho badtide will kill all of it

as lapan said, the map is pretty terrible for this faction, its a challenge for sure

[ivory flicker]

altho at this point, a drought will too, as no dams is in place yet

[devout obsidian]

What do you do to manage workspaces? Weirdly everyone says there are too many beavers, I so far always had too few. About third to half of workplaces unoccupied and it drives me crazy. I did accept the challenge to not pause buildings, I only set priority to lowest.

[radiant arch]

hauling lodges

suspecting this is rather early

there's usually no problem later, when you can add multiple workshops or assembly lines and get to reduce workers a lot using GMO labs or wine cellars

[devout obsidian]

Yes, early game. What about hauling lodges. With only 2 and later 4 builders if I built more of them, less of other buildings.

[radiant arch]

another problem can be: too many kits - growing population fast can cause this
or too many sick / injured / contaminated? best add more clinics / beds

[devout obsidian]

if they are sick or contaminated, they still take a workplace if i understand correctly

unlike other factions

[radiant arch]

having 10-20 haulers isn't bad tbh. same with builders - DC builders are slow, so having 5-8 other builders is good usually.
you can technically have DC and some food buildings unoccupied with little downside too for much of early game

[radiant arch]

no, they not work

they need a medical bed or medicine (=clinic) to cure decently fast

[devout obsidian]

bed needs science, i'm still in "when do i get decent stairs" stage

[radiant arch]

oh. that's tricky

[devout obsidian]

irrigation lodge says "no reachable tiles to irrigate"

do they need marking?

[ivory flicker]

They dont, i have never seen that before

Do u have haulers and water inside them?

[devout obsidian]

hm, they brought water and it started to work

[shell fiber]

oh, that's pretty nice 🙂

[shell fiber]

the architects are very upset about this (everyone else is not)

[shell fiber]

i would personnally avoid, but yeah, that's up to the players

[shell fiber]

you can probably make a 2-deep reservoir with not too much efforts using this area 🤔
edit : my bad, it would only be 1-deep i think 🤔

[shell fiber]

yeah, same for me, i think it depends if you tend to build a lot of storage houses or not 🤔

[shell fiber]

no, they don't, they still occupy a bed, but that's all.

damn, yeah, this map kind of sucks 😂

i barely see any good location for a reservoir

the only one that doesn't require too much effort is quite far

and it's not even that good

i guess the real plan is to mass-produce dynamite then

[ivory flicker]

Will this work to fill that area up with 2 deep water? its pointing right to a levee, so i think water would flow down, and the cannon would "not be the wiser" and keep working until above the levee (for lotus)

[ivory flicker]

yea i foregone that route and went mass storage instead

[radiant arch]

you can set target height with the cannon. there's a slider once it is build

[ivory flicker]

all the cannons have max depth of 1, unless the tooltip is outdated

[radiant arch]

that is no longer true and was for input height

they work when flooded too now haha

[ivory flicker]

So my levee shenanigans is not needed, good to know

[radiant arch]

@shell fiber is that a bug actually? the 1m height on cannons no longer working?

i kinda really enjoyed that on my last map, having cannon in 0-4m deep water work all the time

[ivory flicker]

Out of all the maps i thought i would be able to use the water cannon, i didnt expect it to be this one

I also assumed the 1m is the target depth

[ivory flicker]

I think the water missed lol

that farmhouse will be soaked everyday

[shell fiber]

why would you need that levee ?

[shell fiber]

no that's the auto-UI thing adding unnecessary information again

[ivory flicker]

Bc i thought the max depth is for the target

[devout obsidian]

Can the updated tech tree image be found somewhere outside game?

[radiant arch]

https://darkskies.za.net/~norman/timbertrees/v1.0/enUS_Whitepaws.html ? (might not always be the lastest version, but frequently updated)

otherwise the one from the billboard is in-game only iirc

[abstract vector]

@ivory flicker As a long term project you could dam both sides here and make a large reservoir, it would be a much longer term project and you'd have to redo stuff though

[radiant arch]

actually that's not a big gap to fill with lodges and some dams. can dig it deeper later too.
and extend range of workers using ziplines
part of the dam can be an array of pumps too (the simple pumps are stackable even, so can go bottom of dam too technically)

MK3 upgrades are late, but go to 4.65m height even

easier to put dam + upgrade on top of a row of lodges - gives 3.65m already

[ivory flicker]

Wdym single pumps are stackable? Doesnt that top tube part obstruct it?

Also i assume u mean the deep water pumps (whats in the picture there)

[ivory flicker]

Its not a bad idea, and that water source makes badwater diversion super easy as i can just hurl it down the cliff

[radiant arch]

the simple water pump has a flat roof upgrade, so you can put things on top of them. can also use platforms to put dams on them

the deep pump has a triangle roof that can't be built on

[ivory flicker]

Thats some advance stats, tho that is a lot of extra beavers

[radiant arch]

tbh there's not much difference in performance between them (deep pump has 33% extra, yet it needs to be emptied and wellbeing gives 2-5x productivity anyway, so they more or less even out later)

[radiant arch]

only makes sense if you can move things there or have many to join (like workshop, florists, handicrafter, artist, .. there should be plenty in that stage of game actually)

[ivory flicker]

Yea reached that stage once, tho thats a lot later and post ens

And sunflower farms were in my nightmares

[radiant arch]

is it? these are all pretty early imho, just after library, before ENS and the big indutries.
i mean, my usual set of advanced sawmills and workshops / assembly lines would overfill those gaps easily. those are later mid-game for sure.
but my usual early set would be enough easily to fill them too, given i moved my pumps in

not like that is more than an option. having a spread out settlement on big maps like this is fun too

(i'm a little too used to nox's maps flooding everything and building castles of high lodge walls to protect precious water)

[ivory flicker]

Those are true, but i tend to not go big on them post ens after food and water is secured

Overall its probably slower, but eh

Not speedrunning

[ivory flicker]

When u do big dams like that, the doors are on the outside (dry) side right?

[radiant arch]

depends. with pumps in the dam it naturally would. if water is clean inside, it is fun too (=wet + clean fur)

[cloud flax]

@devout obsidian This was the last attempt I had made for tech tree. Should be more updated than in game one

[ivory flicker]

Is that the up to date one? Probably should be pinned

[devout obsidian]

It does not have all ingredients for explosives. The ingame one does.

[ivory flicker]

I probably should know, but buildings work while flooded?

I know the storages dont work

[devout obsidian]

The levee ones work

[cloud flax]

Did explosive recipe get changed? It was paper and nitro and sawdust i guess

This tech tree just shows the major requirements. Not complete recipies or else there will be tooooo many arrows and you won't be able to navigate it at all ☠️

[devout obsidian]

it now needs sunflower oil from screwpress, too

just built it and am screwed by power connections again lol

[ivory flicker]

Also top middle has a typo on the primitive mine

Smelter too

[cloud flax]

Oh. For nitro glycerin

[cloud flax]

Welcome to water beavers hahahahaha

[abstract vector]

You can do it either way, if you have it setup so badwater will never get in I generally put the doors on the wet side

[cloud flax]

Get that wet fur and movement speed bonus

[radiant arch]

• clean fur! (still so baffled by this hidden blessing!)

[ivory flicker]

how does the aquifer work? like it just spawns water until its flooded?

[shell fiber]

Works like a water seep

[shell fiber]

hm, i've spend the last hour trying to sink my teeth in Godot, it seems pretty easy to handle.
also, chat gpt guiding me step by step is quite useful 😊

(i was talking with my wife yesterday evening about what her ideal game would be, might not be overly hard to prototype)

(and that will teach me how to make the next Civilisation Killer 🤪 )

[devout obsidian]

I'm stuck on missing zipline blueprint, tutorial only says "we assume it was preserved"

[radiant arch]

it has to be made by architect(?) than made nice by artist

copyist can make copies of it, so you not have to remake each time

[devout obsidian]

Oh thanks, architect doing it, I lost track

[radiant arch]

sure, that's so different from other factions!

make sure you keep copies with the copyist - likely need 10s or 20s of them for a normal run.

artist can hold 5 ready made blueprints of each type, while copyist can hold 25? or so
as long as copyist has one it's fast to make more at any point

[devout obsidian]

Oh and game loading works for everyone? I can only reload from save twice then it crashes.

[radiant arch]

i have that too often recently. not sure why..

sometimes fails to continue starting game when i tabbed out of window while loading..

if you have a player.log or error report from it, that might help figure this one out (might be its something in the mods?)

[devout obsidian]

For some buildings this covers whole screen, even if I set UI scale to 80%

[radiant arch]

Timprove4UI offer help i believe - for the building screens too, adds scroll and scale to those

[shell fiber]

reworked the giant bamboo so that it's less poly-intensive

and generally less crouded

but making it 2x2 with proper random rotation... no bueno

damn, how long have those things been messed up for 😂

[shell fiber]

what ? 🧐

[crisp parcel]

reall cool work lapantouflemagic!

[radiant arch]

everything got even cooler! (beside the vertex paint going on vacation)

[shell fiber]

trying to upload before going back home for the WE

for the record, that will require updating the texture pack

[ivory flicker]

Why did i not suspect u would change some of the automation stuff

weather station in particular

[shell fiber]

This time both are also on steam

[devout obsidian]

have you added science output to blueprint research? ty, without relics on the map it would be total slog

[ivory flicker]

yea its there, if i recall its 50 per

Do you guys care about irigation area, as in, the most tiles per irigation building bc of water usage?

[radiant arch]

nah. i like them to cover much, but am often only in 20% or 30% range for rough terrain
little more careful with towers since they give beds, but not care about perfect range

if it's too low there's fluid dumps too

[shell fiber]

The water consumption scales with effective coverage / max coverage

Tell me if anything explodes 👍

Also, since we now have a valve lodge, I think it doesn't make much sense anymore to have the floodgate dam be blueprint locked, I think instead I'll give the blueprint to the calculatorium

[ivory flicker]

Wdym by this?

[radiant arch]

yeah, felt redundant somehow

[radiant arch]

if 3 beds for irrigation tower aren't ideal, can always place a fluid dump with some dynamite too to irrigate area

they spread moisture across multiple levels too

so on slopes might be better choice

(can just dig them right into slope too, so not need to take much surface)

[ivory flicker]

The best part might be the free lido

[radiant arch]

can be helpful if central and early, yes

usually there's endless lidos later (irrigation bath towers)

actually.. do lido provide clean fur too? (they literally are in water, aren't they?) never checked..

[ivory flicker]

Oh my original question was about the irigation bath tower

I assume that water usage scales too

[radiant arch]

scales too, yes

just not reaches different layers - so only works on same level as the tower touches

[ivory flicker]

Yea hence the question about the efficiency

Altho terraces has a lot of flat spaces... its just on a lot of levels

[radiant arch]

tbh - spamming the irrigation bath towers is nice water storage 🙂

[ivory flicker]

Storage?

[radiant arch]

155 per bath was it? lasts for many days?

i usually find 1-2k in those randomly in times of need 🙂

[ivory flicker]

Oh not so intended storage 😂

[radiant arch]

it saved many a colony before 😉

[devout obsidian]

And wild brambles can now cross water ?!

[radiant arch]

yes. contamination too

and vertical

1 level

sadly had to stop them from randomly turning into thorns..

[devout obsidian]

was like wtf did they cross from right to left?

[devout obsidian]

hide yo kids, hide yo wife

[radiant arch]

right, there was the fix for the valve pending, wasn't there?

anything else was off that needed fixing?

[shell fiber]

I think they don't actually 🤔

[shell fiber]

Not that I can think off

I fixed the animation of the sawmill and small bad water pump but forgot to check it, if anyone has a couple of minutes to check 🤔

[radiant arch]

the primitive sawmill?

[shell fiber]

Yep

The animation was intermittent, not that it is very visible though

I should give a little redesign to that building someday

[radiant arch]

will check. just had to force-download from steam

[devout obsidian]

yes both are smooth

[shell fiber]

Tell me if you find other animations that pause suspiciously

[devout obsidian]

is there an improved florist? to make fibers

[radiant arch]

sawmill is smooth

sorry, was slow to load

[radiant arch]

bamboo cutting gives plenty later

[radiant arch]

the waterwheels have a minor lag at the end of animation. not sure that's only on low flow.

curiously all three

so might be game mechanics too?

that one looks odd

giant fly might be nice (and creepy) to be animated too?

alchemist not has smoke animation (bubbles? seen bob do fun red orange bubbles for his emberpelts recently)

can't find anything major with a quick look. just the trebuchet is weird.

[shell fiber]

They should spill a nasty orange smoke 🤔

[radiant arch]

did they loose the spec?

(not checked)

[shell fiber]

Don't know

Added to my to-do list

And the trebuchet too

It needs a complete rework though

[radiant arch]

i fear.. it's 50-60% fine, just this short part goes off

[still frigate]

Doing that now. /laughs

Steam update buttons and an extra reboot always does the job for me. 🙂

[ivory flicker]

How did u get that grass colour

[still frigate]

This map doesn't have a lot of bombs or that kind of surprises (unless I decide differently as I playtest it), but one of the ones it has it about to trigger. 4 bombs messing with liquid flows and releasing a wave of bad water that might reach the colony.

[ivory flicker]

Does that map start with that amount of brambles

Thats just evil

[still frigate]

The spread fast, but the mad does start with a lot!

[ivory flicker]

Ik they dont die in badwater now, but do they spread to badwater?

[still frigate]

On the lowest level, nearly every fertile free space has them

On the middle level there is much less fertile land, but they have spread to most of it.

On the upper level, my goal was to have them cover it completely by the time a player could get up there, but I only put them around my vanity signature, so a player paying attention could thwart them in the beginning.

[still frigate]

I believe so, but @radiant arch could say for certain.

Two areas of land I am recovering for farmland.

@ivory flicker There is a trick with the ones that are dead. You can harvest them for the brambles or you can just blueprint with something like crappy platforms then immediately delete the platforms. (roads don't work for brambles like they do for berries)

[ivory flicker]

Demolish kills them instantly now like tree stumps

[still frigate]

I never remember to do that, but yes.

[ivory flicker]

Altho the dead ones are only possible now if they dry out right

[still frigate]

Or were dead when the map started.

[devout obsidian]

Dead birch trees, I guess

[still frigate]

Yep

[still frigate]

The danger with demolish is you can tell it to demolish dead trees too. So you have to immediately cancel the demolish so eager beavers don't do something you aren't ready for.

[ivory flicker]

Yea, i usually mark my demolishes in pause, so theres no danger of that

[still frigate]

same

[devout obsidian]

We'll need a herbicide eventually😆

[still frigate]

I find the battle to be "fun" but then I love the concept.

[ivory flicker]

Imo its too fast, otherwise i might not cheese it that hard

[still frigate]

This might the one last look at this almost-thriving colony, depending on how well what I did translates from map mode to live mode. First time about to see it for real.

[ivory flicker]

I literally cant come down from the terraces without cheese, bc i need rope to build down to reach the platform for stairs (no rapelling rope)

[still frigate]

A fountain at the beginning was expected... all of that was under pressure.

It immediately spreads across the lands, as expected.

[ivory flicker]

Thats..l bad... right?

[still frigate]

Oh dear. The poor beavers and their crops. If the berries die it will be rough for them.

Most of the colony is flooded.

Now, I wont call this a map failure, but a player failure. And that only depends on how long the flood lasts.

(I am playing like I don't know what is going to happen.)

The waters -are- receeding. Only 1 tier of flooding now instead of two. And it looks like the flood is draining.

If it drains fast enough the berries will survive!

A drought is starting for 3 days... how convenient.

Yay for the beavers! The waters receded before all the berries were killed.

The cabbages were lost but that is farming.

Flooded buildings revealed the secret cache (if the player hadn't already found it)

But it is across the level from the colony start.

Not good for the beavers! The new water levels are higher and scrossing over into the "only lightly polluted" lake. The two water sources will fight. But will it drain or flood?

Again, a player in the know could protect against this before it happens.

Doesn't drain fast enough. I'd say this colony is doomed.

The playthrough is officially failed as I am switching to ||Dev Mode|| and testing what a player could have done as a WhitePaw.

Well... I backed up a day and isntal built this storage lodge. The water is creeping up and will probably go over. That makes this map potentially unviable as it is.

But that's why I test.

The entire dividing penisula is breeched. That is too much to ask in early game Whitepaws. Back to the map editor.

I may be an arse and put a bit of a tease to the next level up somewhere, but it wont be finished and will still need tunnel dynamite... if I even do that.

Yikes. I put it on 30x and just watched and the water just keeps going up. Inadequate draninage for the whole level.

[still frigate]

Rather than a resource burner, it is just a tech gate. The player needs regular stairs or ladders and a mere 4 units of tunnel dynamite (or its LeafCoat equivalent).

[still frigate]

You sure you can't get rope up there with the WhitePaws? You need the be beyond the broken kart and making your own scrap iron, but I think it should be doable. The florist is unlocked at game start and needs sawdust, water, and sunflower seeds to make plant fibers, which can then be turned into rope at the handcrafter's lodge which is also unlocked. Just gotta make the parts to build them.

Continuing with surviving my map... I gave the colony a storage lodge and exploded the bombs.

The colony still has the initial flood

Water does edge up onto the next tier. 4 days have passed at this point.

And I -still- have not provided enough drainage. Back to the editor I guess. Ah-ha. If I lower the 5 7.77-strength bad water sources to 5 6.66-strength ones then the level's drainage can handle it. (I think)

Still have to go into to the editor but not as much change needed as I was thinking.

[still frigate]

Edit 1: that wasn't it
Edit 2: With the lowered bad water sources the initial wave does not breech a second level. However, if the player doesn't build some protection the water will keep coming and they will stay flooded and probably die. Unfortunately, it is still too much for the main drains. The expanded local drain is handling it, barely.
Edit 3: Dropping the water supply to [email protected]. By day 4 with the new settings the water is no longer breechnign the shores, so long as the player build a 3-wide blockage.

Also, this should be enough of a hint at the bottom. I hope? Right?

Great quantities of wood and water abound, but food is scarce,  Scouts reported multiple caches of supplies,  The colony has been founded at the most promising of these.
-----
Those bombs mean trouble!  A wise beaver will protect or relocate their colony from the inevitable flooding when they blow.  BadTide will be even worse.  GLHF```

[still frigate]

I forgot them AGAIN?! I paused my game and immediately went into the map editor to fix that!!!

And I have been playing 6.2.8 because I forgot to switch it in my mod profile. Arrgh once more I say.

The mod profile loader defaults back to the the MOD.IO one no matter what I do. 😠

So, I uninstalled 6.2.8.

[still frigate]

I -didn't- forget a coal mine before the primitive ironworks! Finally! 😛

[still frigate]

I am -so- glad beavers will just run through brambles. I'll get that storage building levee in no time! Well... it is already day 18 on my 2nd test game. 33 days until boom.

[radiant arch]

swapping in texture files - WIP of my seasons mod i'd been testing here

[radiant arch]

the only thing they need for that is soil moisture really. as long as soil is green, they spread. if not they take around 1000 days to slowly die

[still frigate]

I let my population grow faster than my farms because I am in a state of "hurry and see if I can do this"

[still frigate]

In fact, here are some wild brambles overtaking dead ones in bad water. They spread from the level above.

[radiant arch]

if waterlevel not drops too much they will stop there 🙂

[still frigate]

It might in a long drought.

[radiant arch]

if it does they will slowly conquer the level below too!

[still frigate]

Yeah, looking at a side view of my map a drought might let them go down another level.

[radiant arch]

awesome!

[still frigate]

And the map has plenty of stairstepping for it.

[radiant arch]

might take a few cycles (2-3? haha) but they might block the pumps at some point?

unsure they can spread below the pipe - can they?

[still frigate]

||A row of sunflowers in the water|| stops that.

Beavers need to learn that starving to death is TREASON!

[still frigate]

2 tried to migrade down during the drought.

[radiant arch]

they will stay for the next 😉

[still frigate]

I had an abundance of logs... until I didn't. But if I can log enough I think I can protect against a lot of the explosion.

In overall context of the original flood.

Building as I get the logs, but we're down to the last pice. With 4 days to go. I think we'll make it! I'm so curious if this is gonna be enough or not.

They did it with 1.3 days to spare. Very soon I can report on success or failuer.

Oh, I'm shure this is gonna shoot right over. These aren't the expanded ones because I still don't have science.

And over the lodge!

It stopped expanding -right- at my lido. Some went in, but not too much

1 unwell beaver. That's it!

Okay, so this -can- be done by a diligent player.

All this glorious metal exposed during the drought is normally partially under a river of "pure" bad water.

@radiant arch Do we have a list of all the change is *.9 of WhitePaws?

Change notes on steam are "fixed a bunch of stuff". 😛

[shell fiber]

Sorry. Can't keep track of it 😅

[still frigate]

No worries. You are doing all the work. Your minions should take care of the records. 😛

[woeful sun]

ahhh, I can tell you that between 6.2.5 and 6.2.9 the base faction overrides were moved to BlueprintModifiers

which timbertrees doesn't handle 😕

[still frigate]

I assume there is an implied "yet"

[woeful sun]

yea

but it'll take longer than just re-running the script with the latest files (which is what I got away with the last couple of times)

[still frigate]

/nods

Yeah, I expect so.

[woeful sun]

and I knew that I'd have to handle them at some point in time

I'm surprised that both of these work:

{
  "Original": "templatecollections/templatecollection.mapeditor.common.blueprint",
  "Modifier": "Modifiers/TemplateCollection.MapEditor_WhitepawsModifier.optional.blueprint"
},
{
  "Original": "templatecollections/TemplateCollection.NaturalResources.Common.blueprint",
  "Modifier": "Modifiers/TemplateCollection.NaturalResources_WhitepawsModifier.optional.blueprint"
},

because I thought that Original was case sensitive,

Do you see blueberries, birch, oak, or pine in the menus?

[still frigate]

Of timbertrees?

[woeful sun]

no, in the game with whitepaws 6.2.9

[still frigate]

pine & berries, which should be there

[radiant arch]

oak is the pink one

surprised too with the Original.. odd

[still frigate]

Yeah, but it isn't really oak. it is 1 voxel higher and has different growth rates.

[radiant arch]

it is the same file for game

[woeful sun]

haha! So i'm, right

The modifier Original is probably being ignored because it should be lower case

[still frigate]

And brambles, of course, replace birch.

[woeful sun]

err, no the pink one is everblossom

[still frigate]

Yeah. it replaces oak

Anywhere on a map with oak becomes everblossom
Anywhere on a map with birch becomes wild brambles

[woeful sun]

and blueberries?

[still frigate]

Still blueberries

Pine is still pine.

[woeful sun]

yea, but there are whitepaws versions of them,

with BackwardCompatibleTemplateNames

[still frigate]

Ah.

[radiant arch]

the blueprint modifiers still seem to be lower-case only. there's no cast anywhere and code is same as few versions back

[radiant arch]

so basically no chance the entry would match

[woeful sun]

yea, but I wonder if it's lucky that all 4 items have a whitepaws replacement

so it'd not mattering that the removal of the base items doesn't apply

[radiant arch]

in game blueberry not shows any modifiers.. all 4 have unique whitepaws version

can be the (not) overridden template collection isn't ever loaded anyway?

[radiant arch]

or are implicitly merged with BackwardCompatibleTemplateNames?

[woeful sun]

observations:

• Good group Badwater has no goods (log message, not sure about the severity -- maybe try GoodGroupSpec#delete?)
• Untranslated strings for Good.Grapes.PluralDisplayName (missing) and Good.Coal.PluralDisplayName (wrong case?)
• Translation string for Water & Badwater ToolGroup is being overwritten for other factions (probably needs to be a new string)
  various other warnings I saw in the log:

BackwardCompatibleTemplateNames seem to be applied inconsistently (if there are duplicates)

The PlantingMapSerializer seems to apply all BackwardCompatibleTemplateNames (even if they conflict/duplicate)

Whereas TemplateNameMapper seems to ignore duplicates

[still frigate]

Blueberry is expanding into new territory. But they are doomed when the drought ends.

On day 50 this was flooded. No more has entered since, but it is day 84 and still not evaporated.

[woeful sun]

huh, if I put bogus data into the modifier it does cause the game to crash, so it is being applied

[radiant arch]

when starting another faction game too?

[woeful sun]

I only tried loading an existing Whitepaws save

The modifiers are optional so I don't expect them to affect other factions

[devout obsidian]

ooh, at least one building can conform to terrain

[radiant arch]

they stack too! (which i think is pretty cool)

[devout obsidian]

that's "dune part 2" map and such holes are everywhere, no other building fits without explosives. and deep canyons with overhangs and trickling water sources. ofc i picked this map to learn water beavers

[shell fiber]

Sorry, it's super important for mod compatibility and much cleaner 😓

[shell fiber]

What do you mean ?

[radiant arch]

when they introduced it only lower-case strings could match anything. given one here is not, it shouldn't work
(internally all blueprint assest use lower-case path)

this might have changed somewhere in 1.0 ?

[shell fiber]

Pretty sure it's not case sensitive

At least I tried not caring and it still works

[radiant arch]

those ninja devs..

[stiff flint]

Where did the Giant Pillar Bases go?

[radiant arch]

it was accidentally hidden - editing Buildings/Whitepaws Faction/Townstuff/Platforms/GiantPillarBASE.Whitepaws.blueprint.json to "DevModeTool": false would fix it

just checked yesterdays update and seems it's still missing there

[stiff flint]

thanks, i can work around that for now

[still frigate]

@shell fiber so it is easy to find when you do the next update I'll make this stand out...

TODO: reactivate Giant Pillar base.

[shell fiber]

Ah crap

[woeful sun]

Yes, it wasn't a complaint. I've known timbertrees will need to support it, and it's finally time to make it handle it correctly.

[woeful sun]

I was incorrect here, I thought it is case-sensitive (it might be for some blueprints), but it doesn't seem to be for TemplateCollections for some reason (which I still can't find in the code).

[shell fiber]

It's in the list now 👍

[radiant arch]

just looked into the valve and it seems somehow by design unlimited .. which is .. very odd..
want anything else changed in it?

[still frigate]

My beavers have crossed with narrow side of the map on the lowest level. And they have science (44 only), finally! (Day 95)

[still frigate]

Racing to cut away brambles during a drought!

Didn't quite make it. Gonna keep going though... don't wanna wait for another drought... plus deactivating all these lodges would be cheating.

Well, they did make it! The last lodge was finished before water even hit.

Some drought in the future, when I have large water wheels, all this will have to be ripped out and replaced with a power infrastructure. Until then... oh the population boom I just initiated.

But I don't even have a mechanists lodge yet, so no worrying about that right now.

Oops. had to rip out a woodfelling planification lodge and put a hauler house in its place so as to not have it always alerting me about "nothing to do in range" Hope they build it before the water level rises!!

Nope. 🙀

At 20:50 hours water breeched the shore there.

Those poor beavers all gonna be sick and we don't have PRF unlocked. But the new lodge is in place.

The other area isn't even close.

Someday far from now there will be lilies there, and rice the next level up. Someday...

@radiant arch This didn't cause any stuck beavers for me. So maybe you did fix it?

The only stuck beaver I have had this game was nowhere near a rope. A resin collector who was out of food and drink was just standing there. I finally realized they were stuck and unassigned them from the job, but they died on the way to get food.

[still frigate]

@shell fiber Was irrigation towers not watering a level down a conscious choice or a design limitation back when you made them?

[still frigate]

@shell fiber The P&L passthrough is missing the stair exit symbol on the roof. Probably for a very long time.

[still frigate]

My brain strikes again. Beautiful forest of chestnuts. 6 fermenting barrels standing ready for days and days and days. I'm like where is my beer!? I forgot gatherers. 😿

[still frigate]

When I was making this map I didn't spare a thought for how hard this would be to tap for WhitePaws.

the 4x4 is no problem. The close quarters means a lot of manual babysitting as it builds.

[still frigate]

I got this area mostly ready for rice and lillies. I still need to finish the dams and P&L houses to cut off the current flow direction.

After all that, I have to unlock water canons and get them in place. Probably need some dynamite too to make a ditch for the water. Oi! So much still to do before I have the normal basics.

Do water canons still work submerged or did that end with water collision?

[still frigate]

I decided not to risk it. But we have fresh water for rice & lilies now!

Took a row of dynamite but water stopped spiling over the edge. Had I thought of it earlier it would have saved a LOT of dam building and platforms.

And I flooded some of my storage with this.

My fault for not thinking about it in this context. But the collision does not play nice with platforms or with water pumps.

Disregard. I think the water level may have just been too high when I tested it. It is working fine now.

[still frigate]

All that effort wasted. 😭

I was unaware that the irrigation towers could not work in conjunction with underwater land to take care of the ground. Most of the double-height land is totally unusable as well as some of the single height.

This has been an unbelievable waste of time and resources.

You can sorta trick it for the 1-level deep ones.

I really doubt there is a way to do it with 2-levels deep but it wont kill me to try.

Saving position and switching to dev mode to experiment. I'll revert back to this afterwards regardless of whether it works or not.

I can't accept there is no way to recover polluted aquatic land.

@shell fiber Please don't take this away from me! 🥺
(Or make something new that works in water...) 😛

My experiments worked! 1 experiment involved dynamite, the other didn't.

The down side is it takes two of these in the deep area where originally I only needed 1. Don't know what I was drinking. It would have taken two even if it worked out of the box.

The one with dynamite also required ladders which I have yet to unlock in my live game.

[still frigate]

A bad tide fountain (beside the bad water drain from the level above)

The shockwave temporarily breeched the dams here. Damage on the colony side of this was minimal and already drained.

However...

My rice and lily fields are destroyed. 😭

A trick some may not know for a flooded building entrance in a hole. Only works in very specific situations like this one.

Destroy the stairs (or ladder) and build a levee in their place. Then, when it is done, destroy the levee. The flooding fluid will be gone.

[radiant arch]

super helpful!

cleared some caves on your map using hauler lodges of 3x2x2 and 2x2x1 too, when cannons or draining otherwise not worked

[still frigate]

Nice

The badtide did breech the underground pool in the colony start.

[radiant arch]

a pump would fix it quickly

[still frigate]

That was a lot of force to climb two levels.

[radiant arch]

but i guess there's no space for those?

[still frigate]

Yes and no. Had to destroy the river bath to fit the pump.

The pump worked on the underground seep pool! Thank you.

Not sure what to do about this except let it evaporate and take measures to prevent it from happening again. I don't think pumping would fix it with that much bad water contamination.

[radiant arch]

no, pump only works with the seep.. bad situation there

fluid dump or cannon will only make it take so much longer to clean up too..

[still frigate]

I have a solution. It is crazy but it will work.

[radiant arch]

how?

dig a big deep hole?

[still frigate]

Sorta. A drainage ditch where the road is. Cover it back up after blowing it, then use a single levee block to plug it up.

Working.

Nice and dry. The levee goes where circled.

I -really- wish I had a beaver washer right now.

[still frigate]

Ran out of prf with all of that. Still have 77 contaminated beavers and now I'm loosing rice and lilies.

And the root cause is a bad water shortage, of all things. Again.

[shell fiber]

Well if you can make it flip properly that would be neat, but no need to bother too much with it.

[shell fiber]

I guess you could solve it by forcing it back to the max value immediately after it is pushed to unlimited 🤔

[shell fiber]

That's Igor's script,

[still frigate]

@radiant arch It is a crazy path up the side of the mountain, but it is doable.

That is the unfinished tunnel to layer 2 at the top.

[radiant arch]

ziplines will fix that soon enough!

[still frigate]

Not if I can't get enough berries. 😿

I have 3 florists making berries and they aren't making it to my library.

[radiant arch]

not with hauling priority?

[still frigate]

Level 2 has no berries. Level 3 just has a few.

This map is painfully berry weak. And it takes an ungodly effort to get the tree farm when one doesn't have enough berries.

[still frigate]

The florist are all priority

[radiant arch]

no, the library

for the fetching of berries before they get eaten

[still frigate]

It was not. It is now. The florists needed it because they weren't getting enough water.

[radiant arch]

best have them close or those haulers will be blocked from doing anything else

[still frigate]

They are.

[radiant arch]

yeah, the little storage certainly does mess with productivity of florists

[radiant arch]

a tank for water might improve it some too. that way they not need fetch single water from pump so often. maybe?

priority is tricky when they go for every single drop of water

[still frigate]

I just recently unlocked the medium tank and I am making tar.

[radiant arch]

normal 60u pit tank is big enough

[still frigate]

Might help the mushroom and paper tents too.

[radiant arch]

oh.. paper might drain more water.. paper is sooo expensive early on

[still frigate]

I have 3 lidos providing water. Two were just to counter the stairsteps since the water tower doesn't deal well with them.

[still frigate]

I never payed attention. I knew powered was better and faster. I just now looked at the recipees. Wow!

[radiant arch]

yeah. the powered one has 400u storage? for good reason..

really drains resin too

[still frigate]

It is so inconsistent. Some things use the same recipe between the tent and the powered. Other things the powered is more ingredient efficient as it should be.

[radiant arch]

haha, it's named 'Badpaper', 'Betterpaper' and 'Bestpaper' - love those!

[still frigate]

Best?

[radiant arch]

the abyss factory

[still frigate]

In the abyssal?

[radiant arch]

tent: 5 sawdust, 2 resin, 3 water
prim: 1 sawdust, 1.6 water, 0.2 resin
abys: 0.0715 log (~0.85 sawdust), 0.715 water, 0.15 resin

looks consitent to me?

[still frigate]

Yep! Nice

[radiant arch]

oh, you meant that some share recipes, not that the paper cost was inconsitent. now i understand haha

was there any beside cooking still that not gave much better recipe?

[still frigate]

I -think- just cooking.

Clockwork and industrial are exactly the same recipe. Just one is 5 times faster. And it just looks like they just have an expanded version of the tent recipe. The ratios seem to match. 3/3=7 vs 10/10 = 26. Perhaps just a miniscule more ingredient efficient.

[radiant arch]

being faster is plenty. though it not really matters with population below 1k i guess

[still frigate]

Get some wild stairs pre-ladder.

Faster doesn't help when you can't seem to grow enough cabbage. Sure, clockwork fixes that, but by the time one has that then half the map farmed. 😛

[radiant arch]

on the other hand it's kinda unrealistic to make more food out of the same dish beside that small difference from handcutting in small tent to optimised cutting.

[still frigate]

By the by, I'm not complaining. It is just a repeating struggle.

[radiant arch]

certainly is

winter will fix it 🙂

[still frigate]

??? How? Winter usually makes food produciton worse.

[radiant arch]

exactly!

less beavers = less hunger!

btw. for testing i set it so kits grow up slower

in winter, faster in spring

[cloud flax]

the baby boom after winter would be majestic!

[radiant arch]

kinda pondering now that i wrote that if lowering reproduction rate would be a thing too?

would that make winter worse or ease things?

likely would help to quicken it a little in spring..

[cloud flax]

like wont it be like, beaavers frolicking indoors during winters get pregnant and mass birth boom in spring?

😅