Water Beaver Overhaul

[shell fiber]

So just to make sure I get it, you can easily edit the min and max length of each season, and tie the source strength to that one way or the other ? I think that would already be plenty enough to work with 🤔

Then just to see what tools we have : is it difficult to access the sun of all sources power?
Can you also see the map size?
If we have access to the numbers I can probably math out an expected max population for the map and therefore an expected water consumption.

And can you force the next season to be whatever you like ?

Maybe we're better off making the modable season a dependency, and force-feed it some data 🤔

[radiant arch]

sum of power generated? that's complex... i can sum up the potential output of things.. but batteries not sure.. and solar for example is higher with well being.

Can see map sizes easily

Can also see the sources, just not see what part is used

Sum of pump capacity ia possible, but not often as performance is slow, and might vary much

Likely can force next season, but might break difficulty set for game and not work with mods adding seasons

[radiant arch]

would seem to give many benefits and keep complexity low on that part

[shell fiber]

Oh sorry I meant water strength

Okay, time to go back home

I'll poke at the modable weather mod

See what we can do 👍

[radiant arch]

maybe downside of moddable weather is that it voids difficulty settings completely. could keep those with patching the vanilla layer, even if that means some more code was needed.

downside with patching vanilla is that people using moddable weather might not see the effects? not sure..

can do either i guess, if you not need new season types, like one giving clean water from bad sources.

[radiant arch]

sum of water source strength and map size is both easy. also can access population count if needed. or distinguish between clean and bad water sources easily.
just more complex to see how much is pumped per day (might be possible 🤔). not sure i can really count how much water is on map or how much of it is within reach.

[rapid trench]

for me that's exactly the fun of it, moddable weather has the skyblight option which basically requires the water to be flowing quickly everywhere, and progressive difficulty the flood that forced designs with huge overspill channels, lots of nice water engineering for both; but I do understand that might not be what you want for whitepaws

[shell fiber]

Not necessary to check how much water the player pumps I think 🤔

[shell fiber]

Oh I absolutely love the concept, but I think that would be a bit much to force players to deal with that 😅

[shell fiber]

Hmm... Yeah ideally I would like to keep difficulty settings ,

[radiant arch]

How I currently understand it:

(1) Hazards
    + get longer over time
    + within bounds
        e.g. late cycle range 5-18 instead of 5-9 for normal?

(2) Temperate
    + get longer over time
    + within bounds
        e.g. late cycle range 7-30 instead of 13-17 for normal?
    + more dynamic
        instead of 1-2-1 chance for min-avg-max length
        have it 1-1-1 or 2-1-3 (more long, least avg)?

(3) Either Temperate Or Hazards
    + can randomly provide clean water from bad source?
    + this is rare (5%? less?)

(4) Water Strength Modifier
    + during temperate season
    + depends on
        * map size
        * total source strength (clean only)
        * length of current temperate season
    + effect gets stronger over time

(5)
    balancing for game of 50-70 'normal' cycles

    difficulties work same as vanilla otherwise

    effect will increase with time
    it will be enough to encourage action
    yet it wont divert too much (i.e. goal is more dynamics, not difficulty)

may do extra

allow for moddable weather mod (might be simple)

add minimal notice at start of season
    either log message
    or small addition to season change popup
    or symbol + hover to season top bar

[rapid trench]

What's the (game design) benefit of the clean water from a bad source? based on the "surprisingly refreshing" weather from moddable which does that, I don't really feel like it adds much at all, it's too rare/unreliable to design settlement for it

I guess unless it happens a bit more often in long droughts, where the player would be pushed to make use of it as the main water source

actually, what do you think of a new type of hazardous, significantly (at least 2x) longer than the others, which differs from drought only in that a single random bad source produces clean water? this wouldn't give off the "world is dying" feeling, is unlikely to kill off settlements, yet can be both interesting for gameplay if it happens often enough, and pushes players for alternative water sources (aquifer/abyssal) because otherwise they'd need to duplicate water infrastructure at all bad sources

[radiant arch]

vanilla timberborn not really has a season support

it's hard-coded A-or-B everywhere

random source sounds fun, but not sure it's for everyone

also collides with capping them (small nuclear)

[rapid trench]

that's true, I didn't think of that, maybe it would be plausible to make it choose random from uncapped and none if there aren't any? then capping all but one would be another way to add reliability to it

[radiant arch]

big map problems... i almost never have more than 1..

[rapid trench]

fair, I do tend to play more with big maps where 5 is not uncommon

[radiant arch]

makes asking for more late game challenge / hard mode reasonable i guess

[rapid trench]

oh, I have done diorama and some other small maps, it's just that for me most small maps go into the "space is the main limitation" bucket and have not much variety between them, open to recommendations if you have other experiences

[radiant arch]

btw. considering the apocalypse mode mod..
what do you think about slowly lowering water sources
while also lowering plant growth factor
and lengthening hazard
and shortening temperate

like the plant is literally dying, the water is going away, the soil gets worse

[radiant arch]

not really. only difference is that whitepaws get more features / change balancing or i learned more about them really.
was a fun divert to do my well-portal connected islands for a change - same size as diorama, but very different distances and space management.
or the anthill map, extreme distances, yet limited space

[rapid trench]

you know that I'm all for lengthening hazards (though in a somewhat predictable way); how much shortening of temperate were you thinking? because I quite like playing on vanilla ultrahard, i.e. hard with all temperate being exactly 3 days, but that's already quite short, maybe 2 days would be playable, but I don't think any shorter would be; lowering water sources sounds fine, though I feel this has the least influence on gameplay; not a fan of lowering plant growth tbh, I think to make it at least somewhat reasonable the player would need to have some way to see the current growth rate compared to the reference values from plant descriptions, otherwise there's not enough information to make informed decisions

[radiant arch]

not more than that, no.

it should be halved decently fast, but not be the main problem.
on normal maybe ~8 for 10th cycle, maybe 4+/-1 for 15th. for folktails&co; later for whitepaws.
not go any further down. hard would just starts out faster.

same with source strength or growth factor. of course with notice on the plants that they slowed down.

just felt getting insanely long drought / badtide alone was boring.
as would waiting too long for the end 🙂

so thought about keeping season slightly more dynamic, while making the environment more hostile slowly instead

[rapid trench]

how about making the water irrigation range smaller instead of reducing the plant growth rate? I think the overall effect would be similar, yet it doesn't mess with game intuition about the farming area needed for a given population

and it would require players to do some redevelopment of farms/irrigation system, adding dynamism to settlements

[radiant arch]

going at moisture levels did make less sense to me, as it's the same water and soil.
the soil detorriating seemed more fitting? (also not possible to counter)

you just need more water and irrigation otherwise

[rapid trench]

fair, I guess, so the lower plant growth would then require players to either decrease population, build extra artificial dirt farming areas, or go full hydroponics with IT?

[radiant arch]

yep

also allows me to lower total water available more slowly, i.e. keep seasons shorter and more dynamic, while being same deadly

hoped it might cause more dread too?

should feel like the settlement is doomed

[rapid trench]

it does, yes; I'm starting to like the idea

[shell fiber]

honestly i don't really like the concept, mostly in terms of "what's the point of struggling if death is certain"

[radiant arch]

oh, that was for a different mod for player seeking impossible challenge

[shell fiber]

in principle i advise against playing this mod in hard difficulty, because i think the hard difficulty is just stupid in this game. it's not really just hard, it's boring, because the game quicly devolves into 5-8 days wet season followed by 30 day droughts, in which you have no power, and water is limited, so you basically spend most of your time aestivating.

[shell fiber]

oh, have fun then 😅

[shell fiber]

i think that's a good plan, but just to make sure i'm following : by default thhe game only has 3 seasons hardcoded, and you can adjust them easily, but making a new type of variant is an entirely different job, correct ?

[radiant arch]

would have to patch moddable weather mod to handle difficulty presets for that basically. doable, but some more effort

[rapid trench]

fair, though that's not my experience at all, even with whitepaws I feel like one can get a couple solar panels before drughts reach their full time, so power is definitely more limited, but still somewhat available; and the water scarcity is part of the point for me

[shell fiber]

can't we do everything in multipliers ? for example if we want droughts to be 5-18 days instead of 5-9, we can make min multiplier 1 and max multipier 2, that means easy would become 2-8 and hard 15-60

[radiant arch]

that's the idea

just moddable weather not has those difficulties at all - it's always same and presets are made from settings page only, not from game

so if we need their true season service to add new, we would want some way to add difficulty back

[shell fiber]

can we get the thing to use random values ? or cap the max length to something less ludicrous than 60 days ?

[radiant arch]

implementing random values is easy. capping too

[shell fiber]

oh, good 🙂

[radiant arch]

basically the part of randomising is same, vanilla or weather mod

can implement that only for vanilla and add support for weather mod later too

[shell fiber]

i probably should finish my previous update before poking at that though 😅

[radiant arch]

just can't add more seasons without weather mod

would still think making it a distinct mod might be cool

just feed it with presets that match what you intend

[shell fiber]

so for each new season i would need to specify the values for easy normal or hard mode ?

[radiant arch]

normal is enough. as it's factors only it would apply to others or what users put in

was my idea

if you give me values for 5th, 10th, 20th, 30th, 40th, 50th or so that would seem fine too. gives a nice curve for a long game?

(sorry if i'm scatterbrained today^^ too many chats in parallel)

[radiant arch]

was this about using moddable weather and re-adding difficulties?

in that case i would just use the game defaults - or rather what player sets when starting a new game - to fill moddable mod settings.
apply same factors after as without using moddable weather mod.
so it would not need anything new really.

[shell fiber]

no worries, i'm doing 10 things at once too 😅

[radiant arch]

new season as in something different to drought / badtide / temperate...
yeah those would need:

• range of duration
• the chance they should occur with
• optional: from which cycle they should start
• optional: a handicap (percentage) with how many cycles it should last

and for each difficulty: easy, normal, hard

also a description of what they should do to water sources.
or if you like to give a growth boost / malus to plants
or make all soil watered
or make irrigation less efficient..

like that

not sure how i could have misread that twice..

[radiant arch]

https://github.com/datvm/TimberbornMods/blob/master/ModdableWeather/ModDescription.txt has a description of build-in weathers that can be enabled with the mod

[shell fiber]

that's pretty powerful 🤔
and on top of that we could add a progression mechanic, right ?

i'm fixing the giant logs of the nuclear reactor and then push an update

i'm also adding your mapservice script 😊

[radiant arch]

happy to see your mod be played like you imagined it 🙂

[shell fiber]

thanks again for all your scripts 😉

hypothetically speaking, is it possible to have the weight of each possible "season" shift according to whatver cycle number or other shenanigans we come up with ?
assuming moddable seasons ofc

[radiant arch]

what do you mean with that?

[spring heath]

I guess you could manipulate the handicap to do that? Unsure about multiple stages of it tho

[radiant arch]

making the handicap dynamic was possible, yes.
basically i take full control of how to determine which season comes next and how long it will last.

with moddable weather i get two modes for it actually..

(1) single-season-mode

Roll once to get temperate versus hazard
Roll second to determine which actual temperate or which hazard

(2) a temperate weather first, a hazard after

Roll once for each to determine which weather it is

what weights or mode i use to figure out the actual duration
or if i modify the chances for each weather with additional weights (like cycle count) i'm pretty free to change i guess

[shell fiber]

let's imagine i want to have a macro cycle that makes the game prefer more mild weather over a span of 15 cycles (think spring), then very harsh weather over again 15 cycle (summer) then mild again for 15 cycles (autumn) then something really awful for winter.

basically i'd have to prepare like 20 different seasons which may be more or less the same with some quirks, but i could prepare for a truely awful few cycles at cycle 80 or whatever

[radiant arch]

i like your idea

actually was figuring out how to make a winter mod, but that's a more complex goal

[shell fiber]

i think someone had come up with a way to swap off the green grass texture with a snow one and that was absolutely gorgeous

[radiant arch]

that's super easy part

i meant to add actual snow behaviour, like a small layer piling if possible, and slowing down of walking on non-irrigated (melted) tiles, water slowing down
plants growing at lowered speed and so on

likely can get somehow close with just changing the grass and colouring the contamination (more purple / bluish than red)
and adding some seasonal effects to weather ..

or seasonal effect to walking speed also..

that might do great for your idea without being too much effort to do

[rapid trench]

I love where these ideas are going, but keep in mind that they'll have to be explicitly communicated to the player (either in-game or in mod description) for it to really work out for most players

[radiant arch]

so, say, spring is more refreshing..
like has a chance for all-clean weather
has more soil moisture or slight boost to plant growth

summer is tending to be more dry and longer cycles maybe

autumn has monsoon or something wild

and winter is cruel in some way

that direction?

[radiant arch]

might be kind enough to do something like the cycle-change-banners that pop up and hover on current-weather top-bar. isn't that enough?

[radiant arch]

can do that i guess. just need to wrap the replacement for the weather service that moddable weather provides .. and figure something out for difficulties to stay simple.. 🤔

just would like to keep the overall configuration relly simple

so all those 'big seasons' should have same length

and work the same

just have different set of weathers

[shell fiber]

oh i would definitely add proper banners of course

[shell fiber]

basically yes, but maybe autumn should be not too harsh

anyway, sorry i couldn't finish my update today again

GN :

[radiant arch]

gn

[rapid trench]

to signify the current season? sure, but I think also knowing how long it'll last for and what its effects are would be essential

[radiant arch]

sorting for myself to figure out balance implications...

• spring might be easier allowing to quicken early game.. cycle 15 is save to reach trading, some industries this way
  little worry about water, more about building and growing it seems
• summer is the part going for ENS, growing basics and industries. till cycle 30..
  additionally has to deal with having less water at times, landscape to build reservoir
• autumn is about the big industries, abyss and all. till cycle 45.. that's close to being able to build the wonder already
  might want more water in for winter?
  player can landscape big time and hoard foods to prepare too?
• winter is a full booming city with all means to cozy up and have enormous stocks of food.. so can be cruel some
  might limit flowing water again.. harvests too..
  might limit walking speed or such.. (outdoors)
  may want to encourage to use up stored food and drinks / reservoirs?

can repeat the 'year' after with little worry i guess... got no preferences on that really..
may try to give a proper solar array script that is depending on time of day and season?

guess i really like the 15-cycle-seasons for water beavers..

[radiant arch]

all in due time

might do this as extra mod and have people test it plenty. if that's fine with you @shell fiber ?

this is too complex to just throw out. also too much fun to give early access too to get more feedback on how different people feel about playing with it

imho

i might be able to add solar power modifiers.. but that's a 'maybe - low priority'

certainly can colour the fog and set sun angles. hazardous weather already does this, so seasons could too i guesss

can colour the dirt too.. make it darker in spring, white in winter..
not sure about making trees colour in autumn.. that would be another 'maybe - low priority' thing

[rapid trench]

I haven't really worked with timberborn mods before, so won't be much help in actually making it happen, but I'm more than happy to do any testing

[radiant arch]

that's plenty helpful! thanks for all the feedback too!

i guess with seasons like that, it no longer makes sense to mess with the actual weather duration..

rather use moddable weather as it is, use the vanilla options for min-max and handicaps

just have distinct sets for each major season

curious what lapan thought of here..

could do something like this (per season)
(1) a default temperate min-max (2) a short temperate with lower chance
(3-5) types of hazards that randomly happen
so still have change of temperate and hazard..

or go with 'single-mode' and just have 15 different weathers in a row.. (might need more cycles per season this way)...

[stiff flint]

The day/night cycle is graphics only correct?

I would like to see day/night shifts for different buildings....

A season cycle should have an adjustment for daylight hours.

[radiant arch]

that's a nice idea

longest day is start of summer.. longest night is start of winter..

that would work perfect for the solar array too

[radiant arch]

as for the difficulties...
i feel like it is a bother to keep all things configurable.. or use the vanilla settings.. or fitting the direction this took...

so just taking easy - normal - hard and not allowing any further options might be a thing...

or have it move the balance between 'temperate' and 'hazard' some, making hazard more dominant by player choice
~~or have seasonal effects stronger.. summer more dry, winter more harsh.. ~~
likely can leave settings as is and 'convert' them into seasonal mode without exposing all types for now.
might adjust seasonal effects for easy / hard mode to some degree on top of different weather length
(another 'maybe - low priority' for now imho)
(also really not want to bother with it any more than absolutely needed)

that would seem like it would still be a rather manageable set of options?
while whitepaws decides how long each major season is or what weather types apply to each.

[rapid trench]

sounds good, I'd still add the "ultrahard", unless you want to make it a separate apocalypse mod

[shell fiber]

if we are okay going full-on script frenzy there is so much we could do 😅
each season could also be 20 cycles, or we could add some randomness to that too, winter starting to kick in at cycle 60 is probably safer 🤔

[shell fiber]

no hurry for now, if you don't feel like bothering with the difficulty modes, just ignore them, easy will remain easy because of the decreased food and water consumption anyway

[shell fiber]

one less problem

[heavy spruce]

now just to make a giant log power bridge/tower, that clips onto the legs of the nuclear power plant to Access those power plugs easily

1 giant long + 8 gears + 2 scaffolding for up to 10 long/tall giant power shafts that have a small energy storage feature (same as up to 10 small flywheels)

[shell fiber]

i think no one will be surprised to learn that i didn't really think about how practical this would be to build 🤐

uploading update

[rapid trench]

that'll make it so much easier to deal with this water, no longer need to attach the aqueducts directly to the very top

[shell fiber]

Actually I was surprised people did that because I though it would look so much better a couple levels below

But to be fair that was before I added the deadend aqueduct segment

[plain kite]

@shell fiber The Ananas problem is still there (5.4.0) . I know how to fix it , just letting you know.

Exception: NeedSpec with id Ananas is not used!
Timberborn.GameFactionSystem.NeedVerifier.VerifyAllNeedsAreUsed (System.Collections.Generic.IEnumerable1[T] needSpecs, System.Collections.Generic.ICollection1[T] allFactionNeeds) (at <d2470670ce014879b8010fafa0f2c3da>:0)
Timberborn.GameFactionSystem.NeedVerifier.Load () (at <d2470670ce014879b8010fafa0f2c3da>:0)
Mods.MoreModLogs.SingletonSystemPatch.ErrorReporter (System.Action fn) (at C:/Users/***/Documents/src/Timberborn-MoreModLogs/SingletonSystemPatch.cs:61)
(wrapper dynamic-method) MonoMod.Utils.DynamicMethodDefinition.Timberborn.SingletonSystem.SingletonLifecycleService.LoadSingletons_Patch2(Timberborn.SingletonSystem.SingletonLifecycleService)
(wrapper dynamic-method) MonoMod.Utils.DynamicMethodDefinition.Timberborn.SingletonSystem.SingletonLifecycleService.LoadAll_Patch1(Timberborn.SingletonSystem.SingletonLifecycleService)
Timberborn.SingletonSystem.SingletonLifecycleUnityAdapter.Start () (at <96bb093425f845a0893e946f4e529dbb>:0)

[rapid trench]

I didn't even realise the deadend segment could be used there, I kind of assumed (without checking) it couldn't placed close enough and that the water would spill to both sides of the end barrier, my bad I guess, though now it's even less relevant

[radiant arch]

might still be cheaper in giant logs

not needs the ones on the edges and not the edge aqueduct parts to use end piece

lapans version looks much better thought .. darn..

[radiant arch]

can confirm that the deprecated Blueprints/Goods/WhitepawsGoods/Special/GoodSpecification.OmniDrink.json is still present and using the non-existing "Ananas" need id.

recipes for omnidrink, omnidrinksmall and omnidrinkmed all refer ananas too, but those should not cause a crash while not in use

oh.. wait.. the list is commented out.. - new version should not be a problem

@plain kite assuming you use steam.. can you try to remove the mod from file system and re-download? you might have a file corruption (i.e. an old file that should not be around anymore)

unsubscribe might work, but best to verify it did

[plain kite]

I do use steam , but i've installed it manually ( the 5.4.0 version i mean). Is not yet available in steam .

i wanted to test the new stuff 🙂

[radiant arch]

did you remove the old version first?

[plain kite]

no , i can try that

Update: removing everything worked

@radiant arch thx

having ananas in the well-being window was messing with me 🙂

[radiant arch]

that press... 🤯

some feedback on current well-being:

hooman tours provide for roughly 300 beavers for me.
so needed a 2nd one.

trouble with too little hunger: can't fulfill all need for pumpkin chips (only half filled), foreign food and stews (varying, but on average 0.5-0.75 missing over those)

not sure it's my lack of optimising path (it's somewhat all over). there's certainly enough and pumpkin chips is available about everywhere really for example.

[radiant arch]

hmm.. random.. somehow souvy the 1st, souvy the 2nd and souvy the 3rd worked at the wonder and made it to the launch team.. 😅

[shell fiber]

You need to clear the mod folder properly and reinstall it. It will keep happening every update otherwise

[shell fiber]

He surely like warm places😅

[wicked pecan]

is the rock tossing machine now working?

[radiant arch]

has a dynamite symbol too. just missing the translation for that new recipe

[wicked pecan]

nope still crashes when clicking that building

workshop sees to have old version?

[radiant arch]

latest mod.io version works

no idea if it was on steam already too

[shell fiber]

Let me check

[wicked pecan]

workshop still has old version

[shell fiber]

i see no problem with the trebuchet for now 🤔

[wicked pecan]

my bad as workshop is not updated. so i didint really get update

[spring heath]

these are some very cool changes I'm hearing about!

can we please have strong alcohol retagged as an ingredient soon? :D

[rapid trench]

alternatively: tar and nitroglycerin retagged under drinkables ;P

[shell fiber]

so no issue witht he current version for now ? i can push to steam ?

[radiant arch]

had none with my late game

did test the abyss tourism, trebuchet new hot press

[shell fiber]

there's also the advanced warm storage back 😉

[radiant arch]

what's that?? will need to look at it tomorrow..

[shell fiber]

an old building from U5, stores 50k warm food, kept forever warm thanks to improper handling of nuclear waste 😅

[radiant arch]

this is not a replacement for the abyss, is it? just a slightly big underground storage?

[shell fiber]

it's not underground 😉

[spring heath]

ahaha I remember this, isn't it on a similar scale to the hauler/builder megabuildings?

maybe a lil smaller lol

[shell fiber]

yes, basically. the entrance is at the incredibly convenient 8th floor 🤐

[radiant arch]

just loaded the game... very 'useful' on a small late game map 😅

[heavy lodge]

Maybe you should make ladders more science unlock expensive 🤪

[radiant arch]

looks suspicious..
but will trust this to hold 100 servings of soup per head.. even if it technically has no floor..
should be available just in time to stock up for 'winter' too..

really.. magic.. it's filling from above, but it's invisible from below 🤯

clockwork kitchen is scary.. not even half the cycle and go 10k in it..

oh, scavengers junkyard can employ bots it seems

this is looking so fancy !
this cold storage will be fake! there's virtually just air below the planks 🙂

[shell fiber]

eeew

[shell fiber]

what do you mean ?

[radiant arch]

seems the texture of the actual food content is invisible from below

not really an issue with it usually being ground below and being super inconvinient to even get the cam into a position to see it from below

likely also no issue with the cold storage - that looks like the cutout script effect.
usually it would be covered with the construction model, but since the ground not yet exists it's this transparent

[shell fiber]

yeah this is awkward, probably shouldn't happen, but i'm not sure that's my mods fault

[radiant arch]

not your fault, happens with vanilla too

[shell fiber]

yeah most textures are strictly one-way, you simply shouldn't be able to point the camera up enought to ever notice

[shell fiber]

has it been reported ?

[last goblet]

Guys, there's a way to disable the explosion animation? (some mod...)
I like to use a lot of dinamite... but when is exploding my gameplay stay on 1 fps for a while... sometimes even in 1x

[radiant arch]

hmm

if it lasts for a while after that might be due to terrain map updates and re-calculating textures too

in general might help to set quality to lowest prior to reduce graphics processing?

[last goblet]

I tried...there's no effect
The game always uses less then 25% of my gpu, even playing with graphics on ultra...

But, when set to explode and move the camera to other place (while paused...) the fps reduces only a bit...

[radiant arch]

no idea if there's any much you could do if CPU is limiting here

[shell fiber]

have you tried detonating less dynamite at once ?

[spring heath]

is the balloon pad watertight these days?

[shell fiber]

partially

[spring heath]

cool thanks, up to the door I'm guessing?

[shell fiber]

probably, don't remember exactly rn

the balloon above must stay dry i think

[spring heath]

np, I've placed it in water so can feed back

all good so far, can't build the balloon yet bc I'm waiting on sky expo

[surreal stump]

Is there a way to use more of the WBO textures/models in the Folktails settlements? I love all the pink and stuff but I'm a big ol' baby who only plays the easiest faction on the easiest settings.

[sullen cape]

You could disable droughts or something, but I'm not sure right now

[wicked pecan]

how in the hell u got that done?

finally

[radiant arch]

Using side platforms and bridges can save lots on those ladders

[wicked pecan]

true

[radiant arch]

Also can walk in and build on those aqueducts. that's how i usually handle big projects with

[wicked pecan]

how strong is the water flow from that? is 2 edges enought?

[rapid trench]

yes, 2 is more than enough, I'm not sure about 1, but my intuition says it also should be

doesn't it tell you the strength in dev mode, like regular sources?

[wicked pecan]

yeah it tells when it finished and streght is 2 so even one edge would be enought

[radiant arch]

it's a source strength of 2, so a single 1 wide channel is plenty to catch all. (it's safe to channel strength 3 per voxel in almost all cases, 6 being the absolute limit on a straight line without free flow)

with how half pillars changed... can you still use giant waterwheels easily on aqueducts?

those been a fun option before

[wicked pecan]

we should have 15x speed 🙂 seems like x30 is bit harsh for my computer with 1k colony

[surreal stump]

I'm confused on how this would make WBO textures appear in Folktails /gen

[rapid trench]

it won't, I think it was a misunderstanding and they gave you pointers for making the game easy with WBO, not for getting the textures in folktails

[radiant arch]

there's technically bobings script pack, with the 'MaterialPatcher' that allows to replace some textures with just text files (as long as you know the names):
https://mod.io/g/timberborn/m/bobingabout-script-pack#description

just adding the buildings.. that's a lot of work, as it would mean to replace the costs and change recipes and all if it was to work with folktails (which is possible, but not easy)
also whitepaws is rather brute with messing with folktails and ironteeth while the mod is enabled - so not all buildings and likely not all blueprints are safe to have

it's basically what i used for https://mod.io/g/timberborn/m/whitepaws-choo-choo-patch-unofficial#description

to replace folktail wood textures with whitepaws versions

(later started using actual assets only cause i wanted to adjust some dimensions / have finer control)

{
  "BuildingPrefabMaterialPatchSpec": {
    "FactionID": "Whitepaws",
    "PrefabName": "WaitingStation.Folktails",           // the internal name of the building
    "MaterialEntries": [
      {
        "MaterialName": "BaseWood_Brown.Folktails",     // default material
        "NewMaterialName": "Pink_wood.Whitepaws",       // better looking replacement
      },
      {
        "MaterialName": "BaseMetal.IronTeeth",
        "NewMaterialName": "Rails.Whitepaws",
      },
//      {
//        "MaterialName": "Details.Folktails",
//        "NewMaterialName": "Details.Whitepaws",    // whitepaws has no 'details' material; others like 'Atlas' not work by default
//      },
    ]
  }
}

still needs the texture pack https://mod.io/g/timberborn/m/lapantouflemagics-texture-pack#description , enable the materials needed, and the script pack and with that should allow lots of customisation if it's about the look of existing buildings
and likely is a lot of work going one building at a time and all. also never figured out how to get the flat roofs and some walls perfect.

[radiant arch]

👆

[surreal stump]

Oh yeah no I didn’t mean like adding them as new buildings I meant more like replacing the models and textures of existing buildings with the Whitepaw equivalent, thank you for all your tips on making this happen! I’ll have to try it out soon

[radiant arch]

using the models... while not impossible, likely not very easy to achieve, at least without coding or making new assets that refer them (if that's possible). and only after patching any conflicting blueprints whitepaws brings.

[wicked pecan]

this is something new with update

wel platform and stairs fixed that

[wicked pecan]

building from inside seems to be broken

for farm addons and mines attleast

[shell fiber]

oh, damn, this had completely slipped out of my mind 🤔

[shell fiber]

that's because you have the tourism center build first, it blocs the tiny ladder that was outside of the abyss.

but i'll see what i can do

[wicked pecan]

oh that explains it.

[shell fiber]

in the meantime

better at nigth

🙂

[sullen cape]

Oh yay I really liked the glow!

[shell fiber]

i'm glad i figured out how to make the texture itself glow 🙂

[radiant arch]

do you believe, that glow fluid might glow too? would that work in storages?

[shell fiber]

i'm trying but it doens't work yet

maybe if i ditch the water shader and make it static i can arrange that

(i've been updating the textures for red soda, lotus tea, amazake etc)

[shell fiber]

although, by "glow" it will at best be "the texture appears lit" but won't actually emit light

[radiant arch]

might already make it very distinct at night if it was 'just lit'?

[shell fiber]

hmm... this one does not quite look right

no glow for you then

this is not entirley satisfactory 🤔

[radiant arch]

missing the bright red pumpkins, isn't it?

[shell fiber]

pumpkins ?

[rapid trench]

that's good though, right? it's supposed to be timberborn, a bit of a different vibe than satisfactory

in all seriousness, can you control the height of the source of the green glow? if so, where is it right now? because to me it seems to be a bit too low compared to the center of the spherical reactor hull which I assume is what's supposed to give off the glow

[shell fiber]

unless i made a gross mistake, it's perfectly centered

i have imageJ to enhance contrast on the textures, let's see how that makes it look

but i have a job to do in the meantime 🤐

see yall later 🙂

[sullen cape]

Dumb question time, the Assembly line seems to have lost the metal faster recipe for me (this might of been a while ago), where do you make them (faster) now?

[abstract vector]

The apologist new mod looks rather intriguing, wonder if it supports water beavers by default

[radiant arch]

the one linking any storage connected to the building?
felt it was way too strong with whitepaws

could easily link a whole district eliminating any hauling for industries

or attach a big farmer to ziplines for reach and kitchens in the back and it's got all kind of foods covered..

would assume it works for any faction

[rapid trench]

I'm not saying it's not (vertically) centred, but sometimes actually centered is different than "looks as if it's centered"

[shell fiber]

what does his mod do ?

[radiant arch]

link storage to buildings with a limited exchange speed (using lukes renovatable buildings mod, which adds deterioration and repairs)

basically can transfer a few items at base level
and up to 240 per day (per storage?) when upgraded using the renovation system

looks pretty complex and mighty to me

[shell fiber]

seems a pretty neat way to solve district goods transfer issues 😉

[radiant arch]

it has so many implications it would need throughout testing to see what it does for whitepaws?

or can keep up performance with the number of supply chains and 'accidentally' linkin too many buildings

also would it force to pay for building repair? that might add a whole new complexity to the game to have to cover those too.. (might be fun)

[abstract vector]

I'm pretty deep in some other games, but I'll do some testing this week to see how it works

[shell fiber]

seems like an interesting mod for sure, i think that would drastically change the way people build.
for example if you have your screwpress connected to a stack of kitchenhouses, no need to carry the oil, ever.

[shell fiber]

there's some crap dysfunctionning with the texture packaging, but something is glowing 🙂

[heavy lodge]

Guess will be fun to watch : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yL_0r93AoIk 🤣

[wicked pecan]

there will be many incidents

he still dont know even how to play vanilla one 😄

[heavy lodge]

Confusion will be more funny 🤣

[radiant arch]

looking at his update 4 run of water beavers was so different!

[wicked pecan]

is there some wiki/list/sheet diff prodchains and resources in updates?

of

¨*

[radiant arch]

https://darkskies.za.net/~norman/timbertrees/u7/enUS_Whitepaws.html ?

[wicked pecan]

i know u 7 but i was thinking like comparation table etc between diff updates. as i have only played it at u7

[radiant arch]

https://darkskies.za.net/~norman/timbertrees/u4/ ?

no idea if there's anything that compared them

decorative mushrooms, ferns, different grapes.. there's been so many changes

[wicked pecan]

yeah those list are ok but i was looking for comparing tables but yeah thanks for those 🙂

or even tree like ingame bilboard has some clues on it or maybe i should try them all 😄

[woeful sun]

This is a megaedit of the Update 4 playthrough

The grapes were only for visual differences (of the plant), both made the same grape juice,

[heavy lodge]

true, and is easy to watch since it contains only the most important and funny moments

[woeful sun]

oh? I've never bothered to watch the megaedits, I thought that they were just the previous episodes stitched together. If there's extra editing happening, then I might bother.

[sullen cape]

That's a mega edit, a repeat of his old playthrough 🙂

[bitter storm]

When did this mod become WBO compatible

[wicked pecan]

is there really observation deck at u 7 and i just cant find it or is it left from previous versions?

[radiant arch]

the ballon zipline

[wicked pecan]

how in the h i missed that gone thru all menus multiple times 😄 i think i should install that search mod 😄

[radiant arch]

https://darkskies.za.net/~norman/timbertrees/u7/enUS_Whitepaws.html and looking for 'observation deck' works too

[radiant arch]

not feeling comfortable to call it 'compatible'.. it's working as badly as it does for folktails with the additional quirk of changing wagon models only shows whitepaws mode after save&load...
hence i not uploaded it to steam

[shell fiber]

dear god 😅
i need to watch this

oh, wait, that is one of his compilation videos, not a new playthrough 😅

[heavy lodge]

Sure, only the funniest moments in .

[radiant arch]

seasonal change happens.. just not yet exactly as intended (visuals are temporary)

[bitter storm]

Uhhh... Ok but I can't really understand that comparison since I neither have Timberborn not a device that is capable of supporting it not any income lol
I just watch JC

[shell fiber]

in the meantime an old friend is pointing its nose back

hopefully less broken than before

[shell fiber]

how is this working ?

is it like [If cycle nb > 20 apply this]

[bitter storm]

Sluice house or power dam?

[shell fiber]

in between

it's a water mover, brings water from back to front

[bitter storm]

Noice

[shell fiber]

but with zero gain in elevation

and consumes power

so kind of a worse sluice ?

[bitter storm]

How much?

[shell fiber]

since it's a water mover, it can intrinsically filter out bad water, to my dismay

[shell fiber]

not entirely sure yet

[bitter storm]

Damn

[bitter storm]

I see

[shell fiber]

my old build said 200 hp for 0.15 cms

[bitter storm]

Will it be more output than water cannon? (Not asking about cost of power)

[shell fiber]

good question, but it should

the point is to be able to build a dam, that still allows a bit of water through

[bitter storm]

Then you can increase the cost (cost to build, cost to unlock with science, power cost)

[shell fiber]

well actually the issue with this building is that it's clearly somethign you'd want to build at the bottom of your dam, which means it has to be build first, so it cannot be science locked nor too expensive

at least that's the issue i constantly had when testing the concept in U5

[radiant arch]

there's a simple spec that says 'cycles-per-season' and iterates over them for now.
so for example every 5 cycles a new season is started, overriding the textures for now

[bitter storm]

Damn
Then power cost should be high?

[bitter storm]

How much is water cannon output

[shell fiber]

having it being quite a power sink seems indeed the best balancing stratergy

let me check

oh, well, cannon is also 0.15 cms for 200 hp 😅

[bitter storm]

issok

If more is needed, increase no of sluice houses

[bitter storm]

Wait is that the name or did it change

[rapid trench]

what happens if the pressure at the output is greater than at the input, does it then pump the water up?

[shell fiber]

no

[bitter storm]

As it shouldn't

[shell fiber]

will be limited to the elevation of the output

[radiant arch]

that's plenty useful actually

[bitter storm]

Indeed

[radiant arch]

can keep a lake / river filled up be low the reservoir, but not overflowing during drought

[shell fiber]

specifically it's not an actual pipe so pressure cannot be carried over

[bitter storm]

@shell fiber ?

[shell fiber]

ah, i still have my old entry calling it "dam drain house" but better ideas are welcome

[rapid trench]

I wasn't saying it's not useful otherwise, I think it would be broken / would need to be much more expensive if it allowed upward pressurised pumping

[shell fiber]

because it was intended as a drain, like in your sink, sort of

[shell fiber]

yes, that is exactly why i killed it before

[bitter storm]

That reminds me of the pipe mod
Did it get used in the mod?
I was inactive on discord for the past few months, only active since the past 1-2 weeks

[shell fiber]

i had to abuse some mechanics to make it work then, that had unwanted consequences

[rapid trench]

"trickle down ergonomics" ;P

[shell fiber]

no, i tried, but i didn't even remotely did what i hope it would

[bitter storm]

Well if a pressurized dam drain house is needed, that can be a separate building that requires more resources and be more expensive and even more power hungry
Not sure of its applications though, my brain is not working

[bitter storm]

@radiant arch some help please for ideas?

[radiant arch]

my brain's all prefabs and textures rn, sorry

[bitter storm]

lol

[radiant arch]

not really sure anything more mighty wouldn't break balance again i guess

[shell fiber]

true, but the use cases are unclear to me 🤔

[shell fiber]

and well, this building is ultimately sort of unnecessary, since it could very well be replaced with a water cannon for the same effect

[bitter storm]

Hmmm...

[shell fiber]

it's just more flavorful and less of a hassle than going in your reservoir to build the cannon in the middle of it

[radiant arch]

not really. the cannon has a fixed height, no less than it's own i believe, while the dam piece can be lowest level of the reservoir

oh, wait.. cannons can be drowned?

[shell fiber]

the cannons can actually shoot water up

i...think ?

[radiant arch]

never thought of it^^

[shell fiber]

seems like they're utterly unbothered

[bitter storm]

There need to be WB emotes/stickers/emojis

[shell fiber]

right now the building seems to be functionnal 🤔

[rapid trench]

the thing that immediately comes to mind is if one wants to start an aqueduct/pipe from somewhere else than a water source

it'd be more flexible than a canon imo

[radiant arch]

wouldn't that allow to pump water to any desired height at no additional cost?

[rapid trench]

yes, that's why I said it'd be very powerful, one still needs to build the pipe to do it though, which with whitepaws is not trivial

[shell fiber]

hmm... my to-do list seems... empty. at least from crucial things (pinned comment).
is there stuff that i constantly forget about that constantly need fixing ?

probably my next thing to complete should be the tech tree billboard 🤔

[bitter storm]

Maybe update the steam and mod.io description and tech tree image

[rapid trench]

it's not a priority by any means, but it'd be nice if whitepaws had some way of getting badwater during droughts, like the vanilla factions (at challenge difficulties stockpiling enough to last the whole drought is burdensome)

[radiant arch]

like the late game small nuclear reactor?

[rapid trench]

? I thought the small nuclear reactor just blocks the badwater sources, without allowing you to extract from them?

[radiant arch]

sadly yes. been wondering if that was a good candidate as a drought resistant source or if it was too late to matter (i.e. post-science)

[rapid trench]

I definitely don't think it's too late to matter, but it'd be boring if it just replicated folktails badwater rig functionality

maybe converting something into badwater would be more interesting? like hooman meat + water + brambles?

[radiant arch]

sounds nasty somehow ^^

hooman red (frosty) soda?

[rapid trench]

it's meant to, would be even funnier if it was a clockwork kitchen recipe

[radiant arch]

that kitchen is the sole reason i make bots now 🙂

[rapid trench]

actually, let's add a bit of used nuclear waste as fuel ^^

[radiant arch]

might as well have some drip out of the big hot storages too?

oh, btw: i prefer making science from dynamite and trebuchet over ENS now. much more sensible 🙂

[radiant arch]

getting close to visible seasons i guess.
performance next, some UI indicator and than seasonal effects.. slow going, but progress

[hidden dome]

Hi all, the whitepaws looks like an awesome faction, unfortunatelly I'm using the GOG version on the game and found no way to download this mod from steam 😖
Can someone share me the mod file from another host? 🙏 Thank you in advance 🙏

[radiant arch]

https://mod.io/g/timberborn/m/water-beaver-overhaul#description ?

more work to download and manage the dependencies maybe (was there a mod that did that?)

[bitter storm]

The blue on dirt is just visual like green during temperate right

[radiant arch]

went for very obvious visuals for testing

[hidden dome]

Is that the full Whitepaws faction or an addon to it actually?

[radiant arch]

that's the faction mod, just the mod.io version (identical to steam, sometimes slightly ahead, same official)

needs all dependencies though (which are all on mod.io too)

[hidden dome]

Thanks you so much, now getting in the rabit hole of installation 🤣

[radiant arch]

hope you have a good time with it!

[cloud flax]

i can get back to it in couple weeks honestly. Got finals coming next week for my thesis presentation

[spiral sigil]

Go to mod io.
https://mod.io/g/timberborn/m/water-beaver-overhaul

Even better install mod manager from mod io and then use that to install wbo

[spring heath]

😭

but also, look who's reflecting reality :D

[heavy spruce]

Then, instead of a window, should it have a couple of tank-looking things that contain filters?
There could also be a 1 unit elevation gain option based on a double lodge with the door on the second floor?

And maybe a water boost building that comes in 3 parts, 1 a base pump building that's a 3x3x3 cube, a giant tree pipe that's up to 10x long, and an outlet building (the same as for the nuclear reactor), or it can plug into the base of the 3x3x3 cube.
The 3x3x3 cube uses nuclear fuel & power to spin a planetary pump (two large gears in a glass housing that poke out either side of the building by 1 block).
When in filter mode, it consumes a bit of sand (dirt) in addition to the power & fuel.
To scale power with the length of the pipe, the pipe should also consume power.
Build cost is similar to the nuclear press but with more gears and glass.

[heavy spruce]

Bung hole house

[bitter storm]

Not sure costing glasss is feasible as it will become mid to late game

[sullen cape]

I like how the sandals are helping out with my Solar farms
I'm gonna say they help out by preventing my beavers from getting hot feet 😂

[shell fiber]

well that seems wrong, what's that, a whitepaws ballon ?

[shell fiber]

hmm... generally speaking i want to avoid buildings that are made in several parts, its clutters the menus and is confusing to new players 🤔
plus... well 3D models have to be made...

[shell fiber]

recent change

although... that entrance in the gunk seems very sub-optimal...

also sorry for the stray bullet at anti-nuclear activists in the flavor text 🤐😅

[radiant arch]

is it? passthru lodges are cheap and exposing bot suppliers to most toxic fluids and nuclear waste.. why not?

[rapid trench]

seems fine to me, sacrifices are good

actually, would it be possible to make it so that it only works when submerged in badwater? would be 1. interesting 2. punish lack of care (once it dries up, it'd be nontrivial to restart it)

[shell fiber]

i'm pretty sure the bad water dome is one of those "listen to nothing" scripts, probably won't work

but yeah, some beavers will get dirty feets, oh well

in the meantime i had fun asking ChatGPT to double check the consistency of my wood-to-sawdust recpeies

because i'm adding giant half logs to the gnawing tent

it makes one giant half log out of one giant log by chewing away 680 sawdust, and takes 340h

(a bit less than a screw axle for reference)

it's because otherwise the Grand Dam cannot be build unless you have the giant sawmill

with that you can trade in the giant logs and gnaw them into giant half log at great expense

[radiant arch]

awesome idea!

now anything sequoia is tradable 🙂

just, maybe, it's too fast? screw axles are super cheap to make and plenty and there's usually an unused tent or two by the point you worry about half logs

got a good 2-3x boost to speed already by this point too

[shell fiber]

yeah but it's still really wasteful

i'll still increase the reciepe time by 50% see what happens

[radiant arch]

that's around 7 versus 5 days for trade + gnawing? (per half log?)
might feel forced to use more than 1 beaver on it this way 🙂

[cloud flax]

Wait giant logs are tradable now??

What are the current recepies for the balloons?

Or is it a planned addition

[radiant arch]

giant logs are tradeable since the rebalancing i thought?

[cloud flax]

Damnnn I hadn't checked. Was busy with a fashion show

But glad it's there now!!!

[shell fiber]

yeah, since i removed the junglebeavers and added the emberpelts and leafcoats, the emberpelts can trade giant logs, one by one.
and the leafcoats mostly took over the junglebeavers

[sullen cape]

In Vanilla, Slucies and Mechanical water pumps can automatically detect Badwater, maybe using whatever magic the Stream Gage does
Perhaps you could make it consume Pollution resistance factor if you wanted to balance it better? I might of suggested that before

[shell fiber]

how does that look ? is there something big i forgot ? (it's not meant to be extensive)

[radiant arch]

looks like it could work. makes sense somehow.
transitions from primitive to advanced (paper, rope, mines) might miss, but than it might add too much clutter too

hardly accessible with visual impairment or slowed processing tbh

really like how it gives visual hints towards stages of the settlement. should be helpful to keep people on track

[sullen cape]

Ooo I like the wonder, I'll need to build one of those one day 🙂

[shell fiber]

make sure most of your beavers can enjoy it 😉

[sullen cape]

I might not be able to on this big damn map

Heh

[shell fiber]

maybe i'd need a new background image, this one is old and show many buildings that have either disappeared or heavily changed 🤔

[shell fiber]

oh, i had forgot about this monstrosity 😅

[sullen cape]

It's a tricky map

I'm going to dynamite out one of these hidden abyss entrances, and if the Water outflow from the Abyssal water outflow has infinite head pressure I'll divert all the bad tides away and use water from that instead
I can surround the reactor/outlet to get water to travel up right?

[rapid trench]

what map is that?

[sullen cape]

Let me find it

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3499060463

On Steam, it's incredible

You'd need ladders or Tubeway to play it

[shell fiber]

seems impractical but i suppose you can 🤔

[shell fiber]

i'll keep this image for now but feel free to propose a new one 🙂

[radiant arch]

this map might actually be perfect
wonder got huge range and covers any levels above and below 🙂

[radiant arch]

that's a good one, even if buildings changed some since

[sullen cape]

I would build it in the giant river, but I've tested it and

Is that the range, or is it bigger than that?

That's sitting in a deep river, though I can blow up my own deep hole 😂

[radiant arch]

it's expensive, but building an artificial pond works too (did so my last game).
needs only minimal size, can use levees too to safe on dirt.
only need one tile extra water column right behind the 'backdoor' opposite entrance.

[radiant arch]

those giant storages look real cool there!
especially with the balloon lights

[rapid trench]

sounds like I want to try vanilla folktails then :p

[sullen cape]

https://tenor.com/view/doja-cat-star-wars-gif-25078126

[sullen cape]

Looks good!

Does the medical centre need more roof clearance? Not too hard to fix at least 😅

[shell fiber]

seems to me you're not aligned properly 🤔

[sullen cape]

Okay I'll try harder, might have to move the power connection

Okay I tried ||dev mode||
I need to move the power connection back one 🤣
That's a lot of dirt if I want to patch up my mistake 😂
Oh well

[shell fiber]

i'll add lights under the aqueducts and mega platforms and then try to push an update 🙂

(tomorrow most likely)

[spring heath]

Ironteeth balloon

[hidden dome]

Hi guys, are experiencing issues with click & drag after installing all the required mods for Whitepaws to work? Everything seem just fine but when building or destroying I cannot click drag an area which is really annoying.

[radiant arch]

there's an issue with linux recently in the timberborn announcements. got the same, but only for two days

might be fixed on experimental branch

[hidden dome]

Hum, actually I'm using the windows version on linux, is that what you saying or is there a dedicated linuw build I'm not aware of?

[radiant arch]

that's the only version on linux, yep

[hidden dome]

Okey, thanks, then I will try to be patient or try the experimental build if it does not break it more 🤣

[radiant arch]

@shell fiber how about giving a season a fixed number of days? instead of number of cycles?
rn 5-cycle-season would reach from 85-130 days on normal difficulty.
if season was fixed to 90 days for example, it might be only 4 cycles long or the last cycle might carry over well into the next season?

idea is to have daytime slowly progress over the 'year', which is okay updating around once each cycle, but cycles can be very different in length, so it's not very smooth.

also have seasons have seasonal effects themself. like a small growth boost in 'spring' or a malus to growth and walking speed in winter

so with fixed-day-length of season those effects might apply a little longer / overlap for rest of active weather

last weather of season would carry over, but next hazard / temperate would select from new season pool

also got a backlog idea of random event-days, like rain, or snow, maybe cloudy, or special textures, that only last a day at a time and change between seasons
more of a gimmick / random surprise once in a while. (emberpelts would die if it rained too often^^)

[shell fiber]

yeah that's a good point. to be honest i wouldn't be bothered much by the slight variation between seasons that would cause, but it makes more sense to have a fixed amount of days.

the question is though, can we have the banner pop-up in the middle of a season saying "it's summer now" ?

in my head it was simpler to just rework all temperate seasons to have their own banner like temperate - spring with some nice green plant sprouts, then temperate - summer with... a ripe sunflower and a bright sun or something, then dead leaves for autumn etc

if it's no problem anything works, but otherwise a quick calculation of average season length in day does the job just as well, up to you 😉

[heavy spruce]

But all the farmhouses, forester extensions, the nuclear power plant...

[heavy spruce]

If you are going to make it open/close the bad water, could you please move the entrance 1 block up?
Or to avoid contamination, does it now always need to be built kissing a pass-through house or similar?

[heavy spruce]

Playing the same map

[sullen cape]

Oh how's it going for you?

[heavy spruce]

im down to less than 1fps already😢 , and im only just getting the abys nuclear reactor started

The other map by the same map maker I managed to get to run at over 1K beavers with about 10fps, then at 4.2k beavers I was getting 10-30spf...

This map im finding is a bit easier, don't have to worry so much about where you dynamite, it's not a constant game of 4D chess, so a bit more relaxed.
But im also running out of farm area and will need to beef up dirt extraction to begin adding farming layers, which is a case of leave timberborn running at max speed for 2-3 days...

[stiff lily]

I love catching up on this thread once a week to see all the ideas 😄

@shell fiber Are you aiming for any particular goal for U7 to be "feature complete"?

[shell fiber]

i was thinking maybe that can replace the underground cold storage since with 3D terrain "undergroud" can really lose its meaning 🤔

but it is still stlightly... horrible

[shell fiber]

upgrades are fine because the base building has functions of its own, and the water source of the nuclear power plant can only work like this, but generally speaking i want to avoid that

[shell fiber]

not a priority, but i'll try

[shell fiber]

next thing i want to try to work on is adding seasons with grauschweif's help 🙂

[radiant arch]

will there be cold steam / lights coming out of the ears/ eyes?

[shell fiber]

i undid it for now, but i think yes i would want flames out of the eyes or something.
but maybe it should be 5x5 instead of 3x3 🤔
and a storage place is merely one option

[shell fiber]

okay, enough for today, i have a stray cat to catch, bring to the vet, get groomed, and then take back home 😊

[arctic olive]

Is the concept of whitepaws still the same as in the beginning that the population grows with every building you place ?

[shell fiber]

Pretty much 👍

[spring heath]

beaver stuck on rope at bamboo

[radiant arch]

it's a death trap 🙂

ropes should really mention to never mark the tile below for cutting..

[spring heath]

is there a way to get them out? can the (in this case) bamboo be safely removed by builders?

[radiant arch]

pausing their building works

just if they are stuck too long they die soon
(had some stuck for 300 days..)

I'm not sure about builders, but i guess it might work with them. just unmarking it, as in not cutting it, works fine too

harvesting works fine with rope, tanners too

[spring heath]

poor thing just wanted to spend their last moments relaxing with their friends... only to die at the doorstep

[radiant arch]

so close 😢

[spring heath]

lapan I believe the abyss ore has the wrong icon? it used to be a drill bit I think

[shell fiber]

Indeed 🤔

[shell fiber]

according to the vet it's about 1.5 years old, we ran some blood tests and he doesn't have anything. I supposed the previous owner was the kind of fool who bought a cat on a whim then decided they didn't want it anymore 😑

anyway, it's a good kitty, doesn't scratch, doesn't bite, always looking for pets 😻

but let's get back to modding, we're here for giant anthropomorphic beavers, not kitties 😅

[shell fiber]

i've also improved the clinic a little bit (quite a lot actually) : it has now 7 beds that cure all minor disease / injuries/ burns, twice faster than medical beds and without consuming resources, and cures the major / severe ones at half that speed.
and can still produce the medication of course

the real question being : will that be compatible with existing clinics

and how will the housing part and the 'attraction' part interfere with each other

[shell fiber]

it is now one block taller, for the record

[cloud flax]

lets bring kitties to WBs 🫣

[spring heath]

new clinic sounds great! and kitty is a handsome gentleman 😺

unfortunately beavers are phasing through the side of this pit tank (and presumably others) rather than enter through the door

(better ss showing tank entrypoint)

[summer patio]

have a q about the very first incredibly compact library set - i've razed the broken cart, have my new town center, and the library set is sitting in rubble. but i don't know what storage to build so a beaver can pick it up? just having the library isn't connecting the dot between rubble and resource

[radiant arch]

the special one with the cushion

works for anvil and pots and such too

[summer patio]

oo ty 🙂

[summer patio]

is there any reason the haulers wouldn't be able to get to the florist?

[radiant arch]

haulers should reach it if it's connected

possible problems can involve not having enough haulers or not having enough resources of that type

if it just got stuck without any real reason save&load might resolve it at times

[summer patio]

yeah like beavers live there, they built it, someone works there but it's not getting hauled. i have 6 haulers and set it as prioritize too. i'll reboot

lol i built one right next to it and it got hauled

[stiff flint]

the correct number of haulers is however many you think will be enough +10

[bitter storm]

Will power production be reduced now since you can also choose to produce badwater?
Maybe to 2500 from 3000?

[summer patio]

ok 🙁 what am I doing wrong here to connect any of the industry buildings to power? the factory, rope, etc.. i've watched some of the youtubers and I'm seeing that they build powershafts and it connects but mines not working?

[iron wind]

Whitepaws buildings require a specific point for power input. Look for a weird dark window - the thing on the second floor on the very edge of your screeshot - that is the power "plug".

[stiff flint]

On that building the power port is in the upper left of the back side

[summer patio]

oh that is super weird! thank you

[bitter storm]

Well water beavers was designed this way, the power connection mechanism in the base game is too easy

[scenic glacier]

Have there been any changes in this mod in regard to where a beaver lives vs where they work? Like prioritize living in the building they work if it is also a house? And or living in the closest to their job they can?

[radiant arch]

there's bobingabouts housing optimizer as 'required' dependency, which should make beavers move close to their working place

[scenic glacier]

Awesome

[summer patio]

Had to take photos w my phone because the screen print was removing the outline but what am I doing wrong here? I'm four deep, tried the small cube and the large cube but not sure what's wrong

Tried 3x3, 4x4 and 5x5 all four deep

[rapid trench]

the fences must be on the ground, dig up the rest, your 3x2 is close, just dig up the remaining 5 tiles inside (the 4-long 2-wide L shape)

(technically speaking you don't need the whole inside to be dug up, but more than 3x3 and I don't remember the exact shape required)

[sullen cape]

The 4x4 is too big
You can't place the 3x3 if you're using the steam version as the other hole might be in the way
You'll need to dynamite a staircase down around the 3x3 to get to the mine
Have fun!

[summer patio]

ok i can't believe how many hours i've spent on this faction lol it's so fun. any pro tips for the elevator to the abyss? I've tried all sorts of dynamiting

[radiant arch]

into the abyss with it !

goes on that weird thing ('ruins') other factions extract iron from

[summer patio]

omg lol DUH thank you

[scenic glacier]

Is there a plan for something like the zip lines or tube ways for the white paws?

[radiant arch]

how do you mean that? @scenic glacier

there's ziplines already

[scenic glacier]

Really? Well shit. Lol the most I've really seen of the mod is JC's current series that I'm catching up with. And thought that was a U7 thing.

I'm too intimidated still to try it atm. Lmao but am waiting to see how it looks with the U7 changes

[radiant arch]

U7 is more balanced and much more fun for all the small additions

there's ziplines, really meaningful trading

and more late game stuff

and some cool new models and textures

not too bad to get into too, imho, if you take it slow and expect a long game

[scenic glacier]

I have a bad habit of scaling too quickly, and not managing properly. It'll be a nightmare on this one even if I choose an easy map.

[sullen cape]

Scale food and water first hehe

[summer patio]

what scaling problem.. 🤣

don't even have nuclear power yet and i'm at the brink of restarting lol or just deleting every building and keeping what i've accrued at least

I have tried everything on this one too 😅

[shell fiber]

for now i just swapped the water source blocker script with water source regulator script, didn't think further than that, but yes, power could be decreased a little bit.
decreasing power based on wether its opened or not is not possible as far as i know though.

[bitter storm]

I think it would be fair to keep the same reduced, perhaps 2500 bp for both open and closed

[shell fiber]

seems mostly correct though... anything in the way above ?
are you on U6 or U7 ? you might be bumping on the map ceilling (an other thing fixed in U7)

[radiant arch]

rotation seems off. the entrance of reactor and abyss elevator need to match, it will snap into place usually.

[shell fiber]

the three golden pipes are toward the back actually, seems fine. but it's one Z-level too low i think 🤔

[radiant arch]

tried to reproduce and it does indeed jump z-level easily if the pointer is slightly off.
far from as bad as the water pump ends, but might be confusing the first time.

[radiant arch]

for some camera angles it can be tricky to find the proper spot.
pointing toward the opposite pillar/edge usually worked best for me.

... just after learning it's possible to tunnel below abyss now and elevator goes right through the hot red stream..
the top still is solid soil and will not drain..

was so looking forward to finally be able to solve the flooding abyss problem..

[shell fiber]

ahah, no sadly this is visual only

but... yeah, more of an issue cause by the map editor mod, if you can't have floating island, i can simply make it so that this problem never occurs 😑

i was looking at the moddable weather mod, it seems i didn't understand properly what it does

it's really not made to let people create custom seasons i think

more just add more seasons, and let the player decide which to use and set the difficulty by himself

[radiant arch]

does provide the code to add more weather types and make them configurable from json files though

[shell fiber]

well it seems that the json templates are really bare-bones

like there's not specificaiton on the probability, season length etc in the json

rain only have this : { "ModdedWeatherSpec": { "Id": "Rain", "DisplayLoc": "LV.MW.Rain", "WeatherPanelProgressBackground": "Resources/UI/Images/Weathers/weather-progress-rain", "DatePanelIcon": "Resources/UI/Images/Weathers/ico-weather-rain", "WeatherNotification": "Resources/UI/Images/Weathers/weather-notification-rain", "StartSound": "UI.Weather.Rain" } }

i think that might be enough to add it into the UI then the player can set up the details, but that seems about it 🤔

[radiant arch]

yeah, it's not deep. the actual specs have some more optional values / subspecs

that's pretty much what i would go for too, like with needs

have a primitive ui definition for the weather itself, and add sub-specs for features (like weather parameters)

hmm.. not like how the spec hides which code class handles the weather.. this assumes there's a special class for each id i guess

hmm... next step...

been slow with things after catching a cold. might take some time to get to weather integration.
getting the actual effects in first

got it working somewhat for seasons and testing some effects.

made effects as sub-specs, so could likely go for something like this:

{
  "SeasonWeatherSpec" {
    "Id": "Spring.Rain",
    "weatherId": "Rain",
    "Chance": 20,
    "MinDay": 3,
    "MaxDay": 8
  },
  "SeasonsPlantGrowthSpec": {
      "TreeGrowth": 1.0,        // trees and bushes, but not' fruits'
      "CropGrowth": 1.1,        // all farmers crops
      "FruitGrowth": 1.1        // includes berries, resin, ..
  },
  "SeasonsWaterSourceSpec": {
      "SourceStrength": 1.15,
      "SourceContamination": 0.03
  }
}

Structure might go somewhere like this:

Blueprints/Seasons/SeasonsSpec.json
   -> defines the faction seasons, i.e. some UI icons and order of SeasonSpecs by id

Blueprints/Seasons/SeasonSpec.Spring.json
   -> defines an actual season
   -> holds UI elements and DisplayName
   -> lists which SeasonWeatherSpecs can apply
   -> can have any SeasonEffect sub spec

Blueprints/Seasons/WeatherSpec.SpringRain.json
   -> wraps moddable weather WeatherSpecs with attributes like duration, chance, etc
   -> can attach any SeasonEffect sub spec
   -> may override UI elements ?

Blueprints/Weather/WeatherSpec.Rain.json
   -> the moddable weather spec
   -> defining UI elements, fog and other visuals i guess
   (should be provided by other mods)

here with season > cycle > weather

[heavy spruce]

What am I doing wrong?

InvalidOperationException: Failed to load asset at Materials/WhitepawsCustomLiquidsETC/Cure
Timberborn.AssetSystem.AssetLoader.Load (System.String path, System.Type type) (at <b03570a2f43541b3bf062c920da2108c>:0)
Timberborn.BlueprintSystem.UnityTypeDeserializer.TryDeserialize (Timberborn.SerializationSystem.SerializedObject serializedObject, System.String name, System.Type type, UnityEngine.Object& unityObject) (at <37f0665f47ed46698806da910139dff9>:0)
Timberborn.BlueprintSystem.BasicDeserializer.DeserializeSingle (Timberborn.SerializationSystem.SerializedObject serializedObject, System.Reflection.PropertyInfo serializedProperty) (at <37f0665f47ed46698806da910139dff9>:0)
Timberborn.BlueprintSystem.BasicDeserializer.GetValue (Timberborn.SerializationSystem.SerializedObject serializedObject, System.Reflection.PropertyInfo serializedProperty) (at <37f0665f47ed46698806da910139dff9>:0)
Timberborn.BlueprintSystem.BasicDeserializer.Deserialize (Timberborn.SerializationSystem.SerializedObject serializedObject, System.Type type) (at <37f0665f47ed46698806da910139dff9>:0)
Timberborn.BlueprintSystem.BlueprintDeserializer.DeserializeSpec (System.String specProperty, Timberborn.SerializationSystem.SerializedObject serializedObject) (at <37f0665f47ed46698806da910139dff9>:0)

Timberborn.BlueprintSystem.BlueprintDeserializer+<DeserializeSpecs>d__8.MoveNext () (at <37f0665f47ed46698806da910139dff9>:0)
Timberborn.BlueprintSystem.Blueprint.CopySpecs (System.Collections.Generic.IEnumerable`1[T] specsToCopy, Timberborn.BlueprintSystem.ComponentSpec specToIgnore, Timberborn.BlueprintSystem.ComponentSpec specToAdd) (at <37f0665f47ed46698806da910139dff9>:0)
Timberborn.BlueprintSystem.Blueprint..ctor (System.Collections.Generic.IEnumerable`1[T] specs, System.Collections.Generic.Dictionary`2[TKey,TValue] children) (at <37f0665f47ed46698806da910139dff9>:0)
Timberborn.BlueprintSystem.BlueprintDeserializer.Deserialize (Timberborn.SerializationSystem.SerializedObject serializedObject) (at <37f0665f47ed46698806da910139dff9>:0)
Timberborn.BlueprintSystem.SpecService.DeserializeBlueprint (System.Linq.IGrouping`2[TKey,TElement] jsons) (at <37f0665f47ed46698806da910139dff9>:0)
Timberborn.BlueprintSystem.SpecService+<>c__DisplayClass8_0.<Load>b__0 () (at <37f0665f47ed46698806da910139dff9>:0)
System.Lazy`1[T].ViaFactory (System.Threading.LazyThreadSafetyMode mode) (at <59bd7c40c082431db25e1e728ab62789>:0)
System.Lazy`1[T].ExecutionAndPublication (System.LazyHelper executionAndPublication, System.Boolean useDefaultConstructor) (at <59bd7c40c082431db25e1e728ab62789>:0)
System.Lazy`1[T].CreateValue () (at <59bd7c40c082431db25e1e728ab62789>:0)
System.Lazy`1[T].get_Value () (at <59bd7c40c082431db25e1e728ab62789>:0)

Timberborn.BlueprintSystem.SpecService+<GetSpecs>d__10`1[T].MoveNext () (at <37f0665f47ed46698806da910139dff9>:0) System.Collections.Generic.List`1[T].AddEnumerable (System.Collections.Generic.IEnumerable`1[T] enumerable) (at <59bd7c40c082431db25e1e728ab62789>:0) System.Collections.Generic.List`1[T]..ctor (System.Collections.Generic.IEnumerable`1[T] collection) (at <59bd7c40c082431db25e1e728ab62789>:0) System.Linq.Enumerable.ToList[TSource] (System.Collections.Generic.IEnumerable`1[T] source) (at <7229ad31196947fdb61dcfd278f7b739>:0) Timberborn.GameGoods.GameGoodFilter.Load () (at <94ad2a9214ca4aa2929798339a289280>:0) (wrapper dynamic-method) MonoMod.Utils.DynamicMethodDefinition.Timberborn.SingletonSystem.SingletonLifecycleService.LoadSingletons_Patch1(Timberborn.SingletonSystem.SingletonLifecycleService) (wrapper dynamic-method) MonoMod.Utils.DynamicMethodDefinition.Timberborn.SingletonSystem.SingletonLifecycleService.LoadAll_Patch1(Timberborn.SingletonSystem.SingletonLifecycleService) Timberborn.SingletonSystem.SingletonLifecycleUnityAdapter.Start () (at <6d5ce360865046b1af71dda8bfa30d56>:0)

[radiant arch]

do you have latest version of mod and lapans texture pack?

[heavy spruce]

Yes, I just updated.

[radiant arch]

not have tried the latest version yet... your report tells of a missing material that was maybe changed recently

might be as simple as a misspelling in a good spec, like Good.Cure.json

[heavy spruce]

OK, as a sanity check, I just removed all mods and redownloaded them, it's getting further
The texture pack looks to have also needed an update

[shell fiber]

your texture mod is not up to date

[shell fiber]

so are you planning to just recreate a different version of the moddable weather mod, or building on it ?

[radiant arch]

not 100% sure, but the easier option if can.
moddable weather implements somewhat around 10 classes needed to get the basic feature ready. + definitions for basic UI and fog.. that's a lot

so disabling the unwanted part likely is easier

[shell fiber]

to be honest, i don't think we need much of an UI 🤔

what would we do with it ?

i guess maybe keep the option to disable badtides ? since some people really hate them 🤔

[radiant arch]

UI as in Icons for the weather background, banners.
visual indicators of current weather and progress basically.
thought about replacing the background of the clock for the season actually. that's easy and rather obvious to the player?
add some hover to the clock to show season name and active effects.
add to the weather / cycle hover effects active for that

something like that. to not make it too hidden / confusing for player

[radiant arch]

yeah.. difficulty settings need something for sure.. next² step³ ^^

currently doing the most stupid mistakes and reloading the game dozens of times before i notice a missing letter or such.. hope my cold is over soon to get this presentable

[shell fiber]

aah, i see

i'll probably add some billboards too 😉

[shell fiber]

take care

[shell fiber]

well there is already icons and banners in Luke's mod, that can save us the artistry 🤔

but if we ask him i'd say there is a non-zero chance he'll let us reuse them

with due credits of course

[radiant arch]

pretty sure

more likely he would add features too

[shell fiber]

okay, so just for a general idea, here's the seasons i think we have on hand:

(disregard the spring mark)

what do we want spring, summer, fall, and winter to be

Spring : nice and forgiving, global +10-15% growth rate to plants.

• short droughts
• normal wet seasons
• occasionnal long rain
• rare badtides
• sometimes "surprisingly fresh" (fake badtides, clear water everywhere)

Summer : starts to slap, no bonus.

• long(er) droughts
• normal wet seasons
• frequent monsoons
• no rain unless drought-rain-drought
• medium badtides
• sometimes "disappointingly short" temperate

Autumn : kind of nice, but minus 5-10% plant growth

• normal droughts
• rare normal wet seasons
• frequent long rain
• occasionnal monsoons
• rare badtides

Winter : hell but cold and white

• Frequent long droughts
• normal wet seasons with reduced water output
• occasionnal short rain
• occasionnal monsoons
• few badtides
• occasionnal disappointlingly short temperate ?

[radiant arch]

never tested rain yet. there's a warning about performance with it. so might adjust some maybe.
technically you'd have "redsurge" too (from addon) that is a badtide monsoon type.

can also distinguish between growth boost for crops (as with irrigation) versus trees if you want
or mess with walking speed, workspeed. maybe mess with needs too (not looked at it yet)

if there's rain and it's working, likely could adapt it for 'snow' (just slightly different visual; maybe malus on walking speed or something)

[cloud flax]

if we have winter... maybe extended utility for greenhouses? I know pretty finicky but might allow growth of crops and trees like pumpkin, chestnuts etc which arent done by clockworks

[radiant arch]

planting wood burners in the middle of the forest to counter winter? (not serious 😉 )

just realising my idea to patch colours and greyscale not works that easily 🙁
silly unity..

well.. off to the backlog with it and more important things to work on..

[cloud flax]

Irrigation towers with warm water recipies?

[radiant arch]

how about suffering the cold and bare and have enough stocked up for a season? 😉

given the realistic options (i would need to code..), it's likely not going beyond slowed crop growth and slower walking really.
and given how late in game it would happen, there's hydroponics already and GMO magic.

current irrigation tower can counter autumn already? and rain makes any land tile irrigated i believe. so autumn might be very kind still

[shell fiber]

sorry i got interrupted

[lone tapir]

How is it ´possible to put a clockwork farm on top on another?

Im playing version 7

[shell fiber]

giant pillars at the corners, then megaplatforms on it

i don't have a picture on hand

[shell fiber]

i could do that, but rather in the shape of a building that directly produces whatever. which makes it basically the same as a clockwork farm

[lone tapir]

i only have Ring platform and bridge

[shell fiber]

it's in the platform sub menu i believe

[lone tapir]

Got it, Thanks

[shell fiber]

not important enough if you ask me, just a general buff / debuff to everythign is good for me

[lone tapir]

Like this

[shell fiber]

bonuses / maluses to walk / work etc is interesting, but also not super important overall

[shell fiber]

yes, but you can put the platform lower

[lone tapir]

Thanks agian, git it

[shell fiber]

if anything, i would like to have a "cold" need that only goes down in winter

also, you can extend the giant pillars, in case you hadn't noticed

[lone tapir]

Like this?

[shell fiber]

yep, that's the idea 🙂

[radiant arch]

So for now only effects that matter are:

a general plant growth boost
a need-per-hour applying effect

can easily simulate the bonuses through needs with this too.. so likely no effect needed for them i guess..

for now got the ground texture patching too.
other materials not work yet, so later, maybe.

?

[shell fiber]

the need per hour is not vital, but it would be neat to have

the plant boost either to be fair

the main thing i believe is the ability to change the chances and duration of each type of weather accoriding to the time of year it is

i kind of eyeballed what i though summer should be, but i don't think it's good, might be too harsh

oh, maybe not

i just checked my previous save, cycle 20 and i could probably survive a harsh summer easy peasy

[radiant arch]

looks rather meek to me. personally associated monsoon with autumn, and summer with dry only

[rapid trench]

speaking about redsurge, what about skyblight/badrain? long ones would be completely lethal for whitepaws, but I think the 1-3 day range would be playable

[shell fiber]

depend on which latitude we use as reference 🤔

monsoon seems to be more a summer thing to me, but that doesn't really happen in europe anyway

[shell fiber]

yeah, they are interesting, but since i nerfed the water storage and want to push people to make dams, skyblight seems very very bad

it would require testing

if you have a dam that is close to the water output, it might be sort of fine

[radiant arch]

maybe on the backlog something like random rain/ badrain days was an option.. much later..

[shell fiber]

if you're far down river, that's just a badtide no ?

[shell fiber]

you mean as not-a-season but a random surprise rain ?

could be an option, i have no preference

[radiant arch]

well, or only within certain season

[shell fiber]

uh, well actually i have a preference

both could coexist though

but i thing it would be nice to have "rain seasons" that last quite long, in which you can just turn off your irrigation for a while

the problem is... when ?

spring ? meeh, maybe difficult to take advantage of it

although... that would allow to plant a crapton of trees

🤔

hmm

that's actually quite a good idea

[radiant arch]

spring, autumn.. winter rain (snow) could reduce effects of slowed growth..

i wonder if this will need many iterations of testing 😅

[shell fiber]

ahah

yeah

the real difficulty for now is summer...

maybe reduced water output ?

also, aren't summer floods a thing ? like when the ground dries too much, it stops absorbing moisture, then at the next big rain, everythign floods ?🤔

so drought / monsoon / droughts is not an unbelievable pattern 🤔

[radiant arch]

possible. slightly longer drought, less water, anything within 10-20% should be fair imho. random flood only hits worse there, yep

makes it really work out to have big reservoirs

i doubt it makes any real difference that late into the game, but personally i would love to have some reason to stock up big for winter

it's always just-in-time production and virtually no storage for my games so far..

[shell fiber]

no i think it's a good idea to have like -50% plant growth or whatever

at this point you realistically should have nuclear power, clockwork farms, and GMO labs

so having to live on that + stocks seems fair enought to me

could also be why the autumn is kind of nice

[radiant arch]

for now I'd go with the easy effects to give a small demonstration mod over the weekend maybe. and concentrate on integrating weather effects next two weeks

[wary panther]

Maybe do winter dormancy? trees don't grow, but they don't die of drying out either?

So water gets scarce, but you can cut back irrigation needs

[radiant arch]

nice idea. could half source strength and drought tolerance for example - peas die quick anyway^^
while it's not too bad to increase drought tolerance i guess, it adds complexity and i feel there's plenty ahead already just to get something out that's working with the minimal features

[lone tapir]

Do you make the zip line so they can be flipped?

[shell fiber]

no, that messes up with the upgrade system.
although the junkyard can be flipped maybe 🤔

[lone tapir]

ok

[shell fiber]

if that is possible, sure, that's a nice idea 🙂

[radiant arch]

why not..

[shell fiber]

I should say "if it's not too complicated" then 😅

[radiant arch]

oh, nothing wrong with having a backlog of fun ideas

[scenic glacier]

Set up mass amounts of storage out of the way, nuke everything and start over. Lmao

[shell fiber]

i just had an idea for autumn, how about making all sources always 30% contaminated, so it's hard to pump water and beavers get sick, but it rains all the time so irrigation is not an issue 🤔

[radiant arch]

should be an easy enough option to add for you to play with

[scenic glacier]

What's a "safe"ish map for me to try water beavers on?

Cause watching JC's current series (way behind on it though) and it's tempting me to... TRY it..

[radiant arch]

something medium or bigger i suppose.. lemon canyon is fun, but not too easy i guess..
disabling badtides might help for first game too.

[scenic glacier]

Wasn't that one that JC did? I think I saw some of that one and it spiked my anxiety lmao

[shell fiber]

JC used to play on my crappy version of lemon canyon, but turns out i'm bad at making maps
i think it was @snow scroll who improved it a lot ?

but any kind of easy map is also fine i think

[scenic glacier]

Ah. Your magic is in insanity, not maps. Lol

[shell fiber]

i think waterfalls is fine

[scenic glacier]

And I mean this with respect and awe. Lol not an insult

I love what youve done with this mod though.

I don't normally like overhauls until a game is older. But it gives the game a second life after people have beaten it into the ground normally

[shell fiber]

thanks 🙂

[scenic glacier]

Adds complexity (albeit frustratingly) to a game that can be played casually even on harder modes.

[shell fiber]

i got bored of the base game very fast personnally, although that was back in U3/U4

[scenic glacier]

Yea. I don't have as much time in the game as I thought I had, but I did play a lot of it for a while around then too.

[shell fiber]

i try to limit the frustrating part, i want it to be challenging, more than anything

[scenic glacier]

When I worked nights

[shell fiber]

also i want it to have some kind of purpose, which the game lacked until they introduced wonders

[scenic glacier]

The frustrating part is usually the interconnectivity of resources and products. Like what JC struggles with a lot. Plus how much more difficult it is to make the environment work for you instead of conforming to it

Also remembering all the different buildings and what should be used and when 😛

I'm at the end of episode 29 of his current series. Lol a number of his issues would be easier to resolve if not for the fact that levees and terrain are expensive AF to build. I'm surprised he hadn't tried to make more levees and stuff for gravity batteries using the aqua ducts earlier on. (He finally did it for 1 this ep)

But I digress... 😛

[shell fiber]

well, what i've seen is that many people have radically different playstyles 😅

personnally i like to expand farmland a lot

[radiant arch]

.. well, i can only play on very small maps.. so.. gravity is my friend 🙂

[shell fiber]

@radiant arch what about this ?
again i kind of estimated it wet-pinkie-style

i tries to make it in proportion of the existing seasons 🤔

ah, uh, right, if i understand correctly, the game always alternate between "good" seasons and "bad" seasons right ?

[radiant arch]

oh, i can mess with things i believe

monsoon is a hazard too, but that's easy to change

lovely mapping of default difficulties btw. should make adding that easier later on

[scenic glacier]

Why only small maps? Performance?

[radiant arch]

performance, yeah..

[scenic glacier]

Ouch

[radiant arch]

would kinda want to give the drought resistance a boost for winter. what do you think about doubling that?

[scenic glacier]

What do the variables T D and B stand for?

[radiant arch]

default weather: temperate, drought and badtide (the ones you can edit duration for when starting a game)

[scenic glacier]

Gotcha. Yea, realized that just after I sent that

My brain first went to time day and then thought "bad tide".. ooooh right.."

[radiant arch]

guess for demonstration could double the hunger during winter 🙂

[scenic glacier]

Burn more calories trying to keep yourself warm

[shell fiber]

maybe not doubling, but that's an idea

although if crop growth speed it already lowered, that can be a bit harsh

[scenic glacier]

Emphasis on stocking up for the winter

JC generally did have a metric f ton of rice balls XD

[radiant arch]

can't remember when i even made those

[scenic glacier]

Too bad there's no way to set an edict or something like "only eat x type of food for now. Gotta stock up the rest"

[shell fiber]

that still goes quite fast though, by default beavers eat 2.6 food items a day, if winter hits around cycle 60 people will probably have at least 500-700 beavers, that's 2000 food a day

[radiant arch]

can do with districts

[scenic glacier]

"that's not a mountain... That's just the food storage"

[shell fiber]

i frequently use them, gotta use all that rice

[radiant arch]

i envy big map options.. .

[scenic glacier]

I need a way to host a timberborn server on one of my actual servers with the ability to utilize the core and CPU count... Then remote connect to it so the client side doesn't have to be powerful...

I have a VM machine set up in a server rack upstairs... Right now it's just for my media server. Haven't played any games I needed to host in a while. 2 CPUs with like 16 cores each iirc.

[scenic glacier]

Sent you a DM as to not derail this thread

[cloud flax]

If spring is early game... Brambles gonna spread like crazy

[cloud flax]

Summer floods also occur when too much snow melts and there can be lake bursts and stuff. One of my friend is doing his research on this

If autum has no source of clean water, there needs to be a more effort way to seperate good water from bad water... Maybe push the water cannons a bit more end game and more powerful?

[radiant arch]

would assume they work okay when combined with big badwater pump?
might get the big nuclear reactor (and water) well in time for winter too

which reminds me.. this certainly needs a solar power modifier at some point too!

can't go full solar in winter and summer extra power from them might work out nicely given the stage of game?

[cloud flax]

Big bad water pump can't pump from mixed water

[radiant arch]

since when?? what?? really? ... that would suck..

buckets and washing machine?

too bad that only works up to 5% contamination.. would be a nice trick to keep them alive forever..

[rapid trench]

not really, skyblight is always worse than badtide since it converts your existing clean water reservoirs into badwater, regardless of where they are or how isolated from water/badwater sources, hence I would suggest trying to include only short ones which would function as "you need to empty all your reservoirs, avoid beavers in water or decontaminate then without washing machine, and either quickly flush all waterways, or your farms get reset by contamination", I guess it's somewhat different with irrigation towers, but I don't use those

[radiant arch]

so as long as you got a pump running it's safe? (or cannon a slow circular flow?)

[rapid trench]

no, it's all water turning into badwater over time, regardless of flowing/stagnant, so the only way to get water is to pump it close to the source (and the only way to irrigate is to have a quick flow from the source so the new water gets to the farms relatively quickly after being spawned)

[scenic glacier]

You know, I can't help but think that a water beaver version of tubeways would be really cool. The only issue is that I feel like it needs to be water slide style. But that might be something doable where you have an upgrade that attaches to the mechanized water pumps. And have the tubes have to tie into one of those to be usable. And it could have a internal storage for it that slowly uses water. But there's a bit more that would need to be figured out logic-wise to make it more realistic like the rest of the mod is

The tubes themselves would probably just need a recoloring. Though possibly a directional restriction since it could be treated as a closed loop

Unless it just stays as a closed loop but without a directional flow that just lets the beavers swim themselves

And it could cost water to add on to it and be unusable unless it's actually a fully closed loop

Sorry, I just really like the efficiency of the tubes over zip lines

[radiant arch]

you might want to test whitepaws ziplines 😉

[scenic glacier]

So I thought I'd throw the idea out there

[radiant arch]

not sure it's possible to have tubes and ziplines at the same time tbh

[scenic glacier]

That's a fair point. I'm just still fighting with the first step of playing them. It's the same fight I have every time I want to start a new save... Picking a map. Lmao cuz my brain goes into overdrive and I get overwhelmed when I look at some of the maps. Even if they're not necessarily complicated

[scenic glacier]

What do you mean?

[radiant arch]

internally there's a very restricted way different path systems are registered. zipline and tube implementations might overlap some. so not sure they can work at the same time?

[scenic glacier]

Ah gotcha

[radiant arch]

or it was just me getting random issues when trying to add portals

[scenic glacier]

Well, things always get complicated when you start thinking in portals

[radiant arch]

never tested to add tubes (or played with them at all)

oh, portals are pretty simple with timberborn haha

if you ignore beavers sticking out of walls randomly..

[scenic glacier]

I was More referencing the mindset that comes from the portals games from back in the day

"ah now your thinking with portals" lol

Another way of saying thinking outside the box. Lol

[radiant arch]

it's not too easy with whitepaws and ziplines are faster, but https://mod.io/g/timberborn/m/diorama-in-the-sky#description uses portals for example

not too much though. just wanted to demonstrate the concept and make floating islands that can't be reached otherwise (early on at least)

[scenic glacier]

Nice

[shell fiber]

Ah, well I'm sure you know they are basically power wheels right ?

[shell fiber]

Can now

[shell fiber]

I see nothing preventing it, but I'm just not that much into tubeways🤔
I think Ziplines fit more since whitepaws are essentially weird folktails

[scenic glacier]

They'd love something that was essentialy a waterslide though lmao wouldn't they? They could swim through them 😛

[summer patio]

What is a “Small Tower”?

[wary panther]

Greedybuilders have ziplines and tubes at the same time

[rapid trench]

anything that looks like a 2x2 with a tower on top, e.g. forester, zipline station, one of the irrigation towers

[wary panther]

not saying whitepaws need to when they have fast swimming and ziplines , but the game engine doesn't seem to have a problem with it

[summer patio]

Hmm I've tried a bunch of combinations of them next to each other / made sure they're upgradeable buildings and stuff. I am not sure why I can't place one

[rare ferry]

The idea of seasons is interesting, but please do not turn the map all white like Cites Skylines does. I can't see anything when that season happens and have to turn it off all the time.

Or put on some sunglasses to play the game.

Oh also while Im thinking of it found a crash with the new(?) pipe house. Dont know if thats been fully checked though. I basically just put it at the bottom of a hole with a tunnel out and it added power. Crashes every time. Crashes bad enough it just says error and no log seems to be made.

[cloud flax]

You need to offset the tower one tile back so that the tower is aligned with triangle roof, both having doors in same direction

[wary panther]

The assembly line seems to no longer make metal fasteners? Where did that go?

Or is it just the primitive ironworks now, to keep it useful?

[wary panther]

Are the leafcoats trading recipes backwards?
The flavor text reads like we should be sending them logs and planks, and getting nothing back, rather than getting logs and planks for nothing...

[shell fiber]

well shit

i'll look into it

[shell fiber]

the reciepe is correct, all balloons have these

[shell fiber]

is there a terrain block immediately above the output ?

[wary panther]

Ah, so they do. Foreign aid for the poor suffering whitepaws, I guess

[shell fiber]

yes, but those cost science

it doesn't display properly though

[wary panther]

Sorry, I thought it was just the flavor text, implemented backwards

[shell fiber]

no no you're right in thinking that, the description is misleading

[wary panther]

(but funny)

[shell fiber]

yep, that exactly what i got it i placed the output under a dirt block

[wary panther]

yeah, I reported that bug ages ago with Knatte's water extension too, back when that had a sluice-like pipe outlet

if you spawned water with the mechanical pump and the outlet under a waterproof block (a levee back then, since this was before 3d water). If there was an "air gap" (at least 2 blocks high), it was OK

the model for the normal mechanical pump forces that just by its shape (the arch occupies the space above)

it looked to me like an off-by-one in figuring out which column the water was being added to, but I don't think they ever got the devs to look into it (since the base game model "prevents" the scenario

(at least, I'm assuming your dam drain house is also secretly a mechanical water pump, since it consumes power and can filter water)

rather than being secretly a sluice

[shell fiber]

just for the record, are you guys sure that the assembly line had a reciepe for metal fixtures ? there is a reciepe that exists, but i don't remember removing it, nor can i remember which building should have it if not the assembly line 🤔

oh, maybe this was an emergency fix regarding that ?

well... apparently no...

guess i'll restore the reciepe and see what happens

[cloud flax]

You had removed another recipe which took in the metal fastners (one of the seamstress lodge ones iirc)

[shell fiber]

ah, yeah, someone said that the fast reciepes from the seamstress were unnecessary

[cloud flax]

Yeah I had also put in a long ass post regarding assembly line. Still feel they are a bit too fast. Yet to ever use them with more than a single worker

This message. Most of the things regarding assembly line are already resolved!! Except for speed but that's not too critical

Unless you as well updated the recipes speed in last couple updates... Didn't get time to test those yet

[radiant arch]

@shell fiber got a 'conflict' with timbercommons and plant growth. their code says 'only-best-boost' and 'worst-malus' apply.
this works fine for winter, as there's only boost from irrigation and they combine.
just what to do with spring: should spring boost add, +15% spring & +15% irrigation tower = +32.25% growth? or max out at +15%?

[shell fiber]

add is fine, i don't expect many people to be rushing for the irrigation tower in spring anyway

[shell fiber]

we'll try to keep enough contrast 😉

[cloud flax]

Yy you replied to wrong msg :P

[radiant arch]

seems to work - winter can be lessened by irrigation tower effect
spring will not combine (timbercommons default to use the best boost only - easier to use that for now)

sunflower outside tower range - takes almost 14 days!

[knotty orchid]

can i ask what is "triangle roof"?

[radiant arch]

things like farmer, or triangle harvester / lumberjack / tapper. a 2x3 building usually (lumberjack is slightly bigger)

for upgrades it's important to align the tower with the roof, so for farmer, the tower is one tile back with the entrance.
also entrance of both buildings must face same direction (and tower is on the left of triangle seen from the door side).

oh, right, the description tells about that too^^

[knotty orchid]

thanks a lot, I’ve been figuring it out for an hour.

[scenic glacier]

The misery has started. Started U7 water beavers on waterfall yesterday. But it's going to have to wait a little longer to play again until I'm actually back at my computer playing instead of playing on my laptop in bed. Cuz it needs a hell of a lot more focus and I'm much wider screen... Lmao

[radiant arch]

it's good to play it on slow for a while

and pause to plan things out

now this is looking better i think. kinda like doing these small adjustments after tiresome code dives 🙂

[shell fiber]

nice !
do you want winter to be blue ? or is it a placeholder ? i wonder if we could make the floor be covered in fallen leaves for fall, and who knows for the others 🤔
it's just a matter of duplicating some lines of code right ?

someone is comming back 😉
this one with a +1 WB if you can live with its constant taunting😅

also now the billboard only occupy the "top" sector of the ground voxel so you can easily slap them on top of your cabbages or berries

[radiant arch]

its just big pngs actually that can be set by json

placeholders. want it to kinda look fun if i have to load it hundreds of times for testing

also might keep it for other factions if it works out okay

for colour.. white is kinda difficult for me, as it is too bright. was looking for a smooth transition with autumn and spring too. also leave an option for falling snow/ rain effect. so went for contrasts. other than that it being all flat made adding snow piles look odd.

would love to have fallen leaves for autumn. or small flowers for spring

but that's visually very demanding so i might not manage to do those

[shell fiber]

in terms of computing power ?

[radiant arch]

eye power 😅

[sullen cape]

I can actually keep up with the fast ones but late game, happy to keep them so I don't need more beavers 🙃

[wary panther]

feature request: an aqueduct waterfall segment, like the deadend segment but the end cap is at height .65 instead of 1.0, so you can make an aqueduct with outlets that pour off of defined spots. Or if you're feeling particularly generous, maybe a the end acts as a variable floodgate or sluice (can regulate outflow based on the depth below...

if you just leave multiple open gaps to pour off of, the flow in the aqueduct may be so shallow that you hit the 10x evaporation rate. You can also just use the normal segment, with a primitive dam built in the end , but that looks pretty cobbled-up...

And a question: have brambles always been aquatic and I just didn't realize?

[heavy lodge]

Aqeduct and aqeuduct sluice already exists in the Water Extension mod.

[wary panther]

yeah, but not for water beavers

who have their own aqueduct (made with the giant half logs)

and lapan has not wanted to give them sluice

[heavy lodge]

I don't want to fight with Lapan, so ....

[wary panther]

or is some of water extension whitepaws compatible now?

nor I, but since it's something you can mechanically do (by putting primitive dams in in the end) I thought he might be like the idea of integrating it with the deadend segment

[scenic glacier]

at the risk of being a pest, would ya'll be willing to implementing the tubeways in a way that could still fit the water beavers? i still think treating them like enclosed water slides/tubes where it has to be a closed system and potentially requires some water for upkeep or just to make. would be awesome. based on a lot of the later tech they have, i could see it fitting quite well and help with efficiency where needed.

[shell fiber]

actually a given prefab cannot have different height values for watertight voxels, so either all parts are watertight up to 0.65, or they are all watertight up to 1.0.
soo... yeah primitive dam in the aqueduct is your best bet.

sluices are just too powerful and too convenient, and are also completely hard-coded so i can't do what i want with them.

[wary panther]

Ah, gotcha. I figured the dam had different watertight heights - but they are 0 or 0.65. So it's really "watertight or not" by voxel, not picking heights

sides can't be different than the ends

oh well then

I suppose one could have a horizontal "spillway" that was 0.65-high watertight, "must be placed atop other buildings" (meant to be built across the end), and made from a giant half log. But that might be too useful atop other stuff too.

[heavy spruce]

im having the same issue too

ParallelizerException: 
Exception 1/1 thrown by Parallelizer-3:
System.InvalidOperationException: Column for index 2372 and height 49 not found
  at Timberborn.WaterSystem.MutableWaterColumnRetriever.GetColumn (System.ReadOnlySpan`1[T] columnCounts, System.Span`1[T] waterColumns, System.Int32 verticalStride, System.Int32 index, System.Int32 height) [0x00051] in <a4fcc7405a8d4c19b983ef10e6a23f32>:0 
  at Timberborn.WaterSystem.UpdateWaterChangesJob.Run () [0x00058] in <a4fcc7405a8d4c19b983ef10e6a23f32>:0 
  at Timberborn.Multithreading.SingleTaskRunner`1[T].Run (System.Int32 runIndex) [0x00015] in <6784b1dbc0584eb4b774276acf5dde9e>:0 
  at Timberborn.Multithreading.ScheduledTask`1[T].RunTask (System.Int32 runIndex) [0x0005c] in <6784b1dbc0584eb4b774276acf5dde9e>:0 
  at Timberborn.Multithreading.ScheduledTask`1[T].Run (Timberborn.Multithreading.Parallelizer parallelizer) [0x0002f] in <6784b1dbc0584eb4b774276acf5dde9e>:0 
  at Timberborn.Multithreading.Parallelizer.ExecuteTask (Timberborn.Multithreading.IScheduledTask scheduledTask) [0x00000] in <6784b1dbc0584eb4b774276acf5dde9e>:0 
  at Timberborn.Multithreading.Parallelizer.ThreadStart () [0x0001c] in <6784b1dbc0584eb4b774276acf5dde9e>:0 

Timberborn.Multithreading.Parallelizer.ThrowIfHasExceptions () (at <6784b1dbc0584eb4b774276acf5dde9e>:0)
Timberborn.Multithreading.Parallelizer.Wait () (at <6784b1dbc0584eb4b774276acf5dde9e>:0)
Timberborn.TickSystem.TickableSingletonService.FinishParallelTick () (at <7fc669a6b33f423f87b0114220ef8f47>:0)
Timberborn.TickSystem.TickableSingletonService.TickAll () (at <7fc669a6b33f423f87b0114220ef8f47>:0)
Timberborn.TickSystem.TickableBucketService.TickNextBucket () (at <7fc669a6b33f423f87b0114220ef8f47>:0)
Timberborn.TickSystem.TickableBucketService.TickBuckets (System.Int32 numberOfBucketsToTick) (at <7fc669a6b33f423f87b0114220ef8f47>:0)
Timberborn.TickSystem.Ticker.Update (System.Single deltaTimeInSeconds) (at <7fc669a6b33f423f87b0114220ef8f47>:0)
Timberborn.TickSystem.TickerUnityAdapter.Update () (at <7fc669a6b33f423f87b0114220ef8f47>:0)

[radiant arch]

did you update timbercommons to latest version? 1.13.1 (end of september) sorry, was about the weird water pump

[shell fiber]

fixed in the next update, just avoid doing that 😅

[radiant arch]

should have expected it, but 2'000 days to dry-kill brambles during winter is huge haha

[heavy lodge]

Use water dump to dump .... badwater 😜

[sullen cape]

Heh I still want them, if you come up with the concept perhaps one of us could do the coding side for you? 🙂

[wary panther]

I wonder if it's possible for the plants (like the giant sequoia and unbelievably tall bamboo) to have variant models according to the visble layers (like the way platforms hide their tops, etc as you cut downward. Would make some planning things easier if they e.g. hid their foliage and just showed the trunks when the layer tool was below that.

because the new golden sequoias present a very dense overlapping canopy if you're trying to see underneath it

very neat from above, though

[shell fiber]

hmm... not sure, i would like it to consume power, so effectively my current system is probably good enough.

[sullen cape]

Oh okay, I'll see what I can do with the Dam Drain house
It's still 0.15cms?

[radiant arch]

given how commonly this is asked for: (just had one again)
could you make one for the triangle / tower upgrades too?
maybe add those and mines to the mod description pages?

[shell fiber]

this one ?

i'll try to add "check the billboard for help" to the upgrades description

[wicked pecan]

would be usefull if when placing buildings that can be upgrayed there would be some placement hints like gray shadow of building with upgrade. dunno if it would require remodeling building placement icons etc or would it even be possible.

[radiant arch]

adding an image to the description would seem easier

actually making a spec just for the description wouldn't be any difficult 🤔

should i put something like that to the backlog?
allowing to add extra-description + image to any building? (collapsible)
downside would be the extra space in panel, requiring a mod to allow scrolling even more than now?

[wicked pecan]

dunno, need more input from others idea just came to my mind as some upgrades needs special room etc. ofc u get pretty used to them after while, but littlebit hard couple first times.

btw jc uses some search tool/addon sometimes, does anyone know what it is or and why its not builin in the mod? would have answered for many of my stupid questions and thousand times going thru all menu 🙂

[radiant arch]

pipette tool?

https://darkskies.za.net/~norman/timbertrees/u7/enUS_Whitepaws.html is great too

[radiant arch]

hmm.. likely would make it a json, like

{
  "ExtendedDescriptionSpec": {
    "Descriptions": [
      {
        "Id": "TriangleUpgrades",
        "prefabs": ["BuilderUpgrade", "HaulerUpgrade", ".."],
        "description": "generic triangle roof text",  // localised
        "image": "path-to-symbolic-placement-image"
      },
    ]
  }
}

that auto-appends to the specific buildings description
could optionally list supported buildings too if using Ids..

but not sure this is helpful or just too much

[shell fiber]

but then the UI becomes quite a clusterfuck no ? and what does that do when you select the building ?

[radiant arch]

good question.. only thought about patching the building description to include a visual help..
that part should be collapsed when building is placed. only fully show when-not placed-yet?

[lone tapir]

Im playing U7, and have rofftop terrances in my well being list, but can build them, or are they hiding?

[radiant arch]

it's the kitchen with the terrace

[lone tapir]

Okay, thanks...

[shell fiber]

if you get it to work easily i'm happy to go for it, but i'm not sure it's worth the effort

[shell fiber]

i probably should rename that need eh...

[wicked pecan]

mod included search would really help in these cituations 🙂

as most of my problems have ben where its made or where we get that. if that search tool would be in mod it would be easy to check these( i found observation deck at fourth playrun with these after i asked it here) 😄

also i now know mostly how to place upgreadable buildings but still would be easier if when building u would somehow see what u should to do to enable using upgrade with that building. just trying to figure out how to help with wtf situations so ppl could use more mental energy to build those chains etc instead of hitting heads to wall

[radiant arch]

certainly a fair point to have minimalistic/ intuitive solutions to those

pretty sure many walls been stained this way^^

[wicked pecan]

as i think prodchains and complexity of those is best part of this fraction those hitting head to wall how instead of making them is bit too fustrating things. also as someone said "this will take some time" is there opportunity to add diff speeds on non "dev" mode on gui of the game. for me after completing basic things and when u just need time its devtools and 30x mode, i was just wondering that could it be possible to add faster than 3x on "normal" gui me as no experience of modding etc. but still asking

or change things in nowday gui like 2x would be 3x and 3x would be 9 or 12 or something. 30x is too fast for many things(and computers) so it would be nice to get something between that. like if 3x would be 9-10x 2x to be like 3-5x etc

[radiant arch]

there should be different mods that do this. would assume one of the timprove ui mods does too?

at least expose the 30x

i can rarely run it on 3x myself, so wouldn't know

[shell fiber]

i rarely ever need to go faster than 3x speed tbh

if you do, then you're probably forgetting to check on a bunch of things🤔

[wicked pecan]

ofc there is always diff mods to do things. but to run with this mod its always gambling to try diff mods (also i have requested mod templates from orginal devteam, so u could save template to run diff mods, so it would be easier to play what u want) those that i have told are "basic" ones that i think would go easy with this mod and would easy things.

[wicked pecan]

no its when ur all basic chains etc are working and u are making some surpluss everything u need but u want to do next thing also. like for example nuclear thingy, u know that ur basic colony and all needs are met and everything works, but then u are building thing that need xk something, so instead of breaking chains and making lots of surplus, u just need time. so i could sit on computer watching things to happen for 30min, instead of that i use 30x and thing happens in one minute. it wont spoil other things im making etc. it just makes it faster

:Dand 30x really shows u ur weakpoints of chains 😄