Water Beaver Overhaul

[rapid trench]

though personally some kind of iron/coal middle/late-game sink would be nice, so that they don't block dirt from drills

(unless it's deliberately meant to be an extra step to deal with when drilling for dirt)

[radiant arch]

making robot parts usually fixes that for me. can't keep the coal and iron coming in fast enough

what do you do with all the dirt?

[rapid trench]

my robots are usually wood-limited, and besides, I don't see much point for them once I have enough haulers

[rapid trench]

dirt blocks for landscaping (flatter farming areas) and minor dams once my machine starts struggling with the beaver population

my play style might be a bit atypical though, because I categorically refuse to use any irrigation towers or fluid dumps

[shell fiber]

ah, yeah right, that's a good point actually

[radiant arch]

pencils, sandals = generic foreign food 🤔

[shell fiber]

i think it's good to have the foreign food traded through something that is hard to mass produce early on, but easy late game (hopefully)

[radiant arch]

oh, that is true

just read it too literal, like "so that's what they eat"

[rapid trench]

fair, though a couple of airships usually fulfill all my foreign food needs

[shell fiber]

then it's kind of a question of "what would these beavers want" ?

[radiant arch]

one can feed a 1000 easily

[shell fiber]

like the ironteeth would not wand your crappy tools 😅

gotta go for a little while though !

[rapid trench]

if we're getting emberpelts and leafcoats, it would be nice to replace islandbeavers and polarbeavers names with analogous naming scheme

maybe we can brainstorm some?

iceclaws? palmheads?

[radiant arch]

perfect spot to start some trading. got the proper updraft too.

[radiant arch]

tbh i like the uncaring way they are described just by where they are found, like any random far-far-away beavers

[shell fiber]

i like the idea, but it's hard enough finding good names for beaver factions, i don't want to cause trouble to people making their own by using up names 😊

oh btw i'm giving a screw axles reciepe to the assembly line, at last 😉

[radiant arch]

wait.. does that mean it needs 800 science points and expensive stuff now to get to oil? no more early cheap dynamite?

[shell fiber]

ah, sorry typo

i meant screw axles

[radiant arch]

why? was there any lack of them ever?

[shell fiber]

late game it's quite nightmarish to make no ?

or that is the feeling i get

but the reciepe uses 0.2 drillbit so there's that

[radiant arch]

tbh. i put 2 beavers on it and late add some if too many screw presses and my storage is mostly around 50 of them..

late can make tons cheap from abyss

[shell fiber]

well true, everyone should have permanently some beavers working on that

but for making clockwork controllers, i felt it was odd to use crappy tooth-made axles

[radiant arch]

it's an art 😉

tbh i feel same about toys and necklaces by assembly line too. so never need those.
rarely use the tools / fasteners too but very late game

[shell fiber]

well you don't have to

now that i think about it, does the assembly line need an anvil ?

or should it ?

[radiant arch]

wouldn't change much, but make total sense, imho

[shell fiber]

i removed the neclace reciepe from the assembly line, but gave the seamstress a better reciepe

[radiant arch]

having super efficient high-output options i would not really need (can do with 300 beavers mostly) is fun too.
it's cool this faction offers so many different ways to play

just tried to go primitive tech and minimal water power and it works out just fine surprisingly long.
only added a primitive wheel when i needed some dynamite/ tar, otherwise got to tree nursery just fine, ziplines, etc.

[rapid trench]

seems reasonable, though you won't find me using that option because the low-tech way doesn't increase pop and isn't too space inefficient (unless you plan to make it worse), which is what I'm mostly optimising for in late game

[shell fiber]

yeah it's as you like. the reason why i wanted to make the balloon trade available as soon as possible is also to allow people to bypass some stuff so they can decide which way to go on their own 😊

[shell fiber]

found a problem in that

i want solar pannels to be easy to access, but exchanging it agains gold dust... well is not

altough dirt can be traded in

[radiant arch]

it's 100 dirt for one panel? not too far of tbh

only needs salt + clay pit too

trading pillows might be more costly tbh

[shell fiber]

but you need 6 solar panels for a small aquifer pump

that's not undoable for sure

but takes a long time

[radiant arch]

fried rice is faster, yeah

[shell fiber]

i was thinking that those islandbeavers hippies would trade gold dust maybe

[radiant arch]

5 days of trade for 100 dirt / 1 gold dust. for basically nothing

might be slow, yeah, going at 30 days / 15 with 2 traders. but not impossible

not sure trading gold dust isn't too good an option? or too complex tbh. so many trade routes..

[shell fiber]

just island beaver give gold dust, only emperpelts want it (for electrical connections)

[radiant arch]

if it's too much, it's statues early

it's cheap to set up 3 or 4 traders tbh

[shell fiber]

trading for banans is quite pointless anyway

eh, why not

[radiant arch]

no reason really. just used to gold being later

the well-being boost is huge from those too

on the other hand it might make abyss reactors available much faster.. which might be nice (gold is often slowing me down a cycle or three for those)

[shell fiber]

i think right now the only thing that really can't be shortcutted to is nuclear power. you can trade in the giant logs, cut them in half using steel sawblades sold by the Ironteeth, but getting nuclear fuel is only in the abyss

[radiant arch]

glass too, isn't it?

but that's only needed to unlock banana (tradeable) and better nuclear fuel? oh: some robotic farms too

[shell fiber]

bananas are no longer tradable in what i'm doing

but yes, you still need it for several things

but since glass unlocks the gigargantuan tank, i prefer to leave it as far off technologically

i don't want people to rush this and use it to skip on the dam

i'm also multiplying the output of hooman relics by five, and making it a consummable

because i couldn't figure out a reasonnable excuse to trade nuclear fuel to the polar beavers

except if you trade them nuclear fuel, they can dig you up tons of hooman junk

but wby would you bother with that in the first place ? we don't need that many relics 🤔

unless they are consumables

[radiant arch]

always found there was some lack in use for that one

[shell fiber]

i hope i didn't dig myself in too deep with this update 😓

[radiant arch]

ohhhh the cabbage says "+15%" now!! that's new!

[cloud flax]

i havent. and even i was thinking of the trade rationalisition but i didnt want to put it out. i have it written somewhere. i'll maybe find it out and you can maybe get some inspiration

[cloud flax]

also just an idea... for the increadibly compact library set, can we sort of make it using the specific books received from each and every faction we are trading with. So the set is made up using the knowledge gathered from everywhere which is then used to build the library.... i think it might put the ENS a bit more late game and give reason to place every trade balloon atleast once

btw, whats the lore behing ampears?

[shell fiber]

i'm havign the most mind-boggling situation here.
how the hell is that one lodge in the middle not connecting

especially since the bottom one seems to be

[shell fiber]

hmm... not unthinkable but would add a lot of clutter

[shell fiber]

basically beavers who use electricity, Battery smooth was working on it at some point but gave upt

[cloud flax]

cooool so power folks! got it!

[radiant arch]

is there a blocked direction and they randomly align on it?
(that is the blocked ladder side connects to the outpath of the lower one? assuming it uses ladder like code?)

[cloud flax]

i completed my previous incomplete idea of trading and added some details and some background story.
Colour details:
red res are mostly post ENS resources that can be traded but at extremely high costs
Yellow are unique goods from that faction
Greens are possible long term alternative resources
White are normal trades... if someone really wants to do that....

Blue ones are based on previous idea for having particular type of knowledge from each faction that can then be used to make incredibly compact library sets. You can remove them, or replace the recipie to take in compic books and give library books if it gets cluttered

[cloud flax]

gold dust all the way!

[stiff flint]

I've had problems with stacking pit and ladder towers before.... I normally solve it with a "fire escape" on the outside of the structure.

[radiant arch]

keeping them all orientated same way works too usually, as in the small mark on top. not used one in forever, but got this problem at times too

[sullen cape]

In prisons, cigarettes are often in high demand and are traded like a proto-currency.
The only thing I value that much...is water 💧

Diamonds in Minecraft...

I think the Beavers don't have a big enough society to use money yet

[last goblet]

I can't put this any building in this side of the abyss...
Is it normal?

There's 2 ports in this side :/

[cloud flax]

Yes. You can now only place upto 6 abyss buildings:3 on each side of entrance

[shell fiber]

hmm...i feel the balance of some trades is questionnable, but i like the idea of gathering knowledge from other factions 😉

i'll put that on my todo list so i don't forget, but we'll see

[shell fiber]

there used to be an other module to add to the back but i never got to fix it since U6

[glass gull]

I came back to a playthrough I had last touched in July, and with the ziplines I finally got the beavers to actually work instead of spending half the day looking for food and commuting to work, and the other half looking for water and commuting home. It's crazy how much more productive the colony became.

I love the idea of using balloons to allow zipline junctions

[glass gull]

After this or the next workday I'll finally know if/what the Project Triumph takes as fuel. Won't tell tho. Noobs gotta noob.

[radiant arch]

looks like the nerdy attic still is 'too far from district' and can't be build if only accessible from the front.
would adding a no-occupy block at the entrance work here? (assuming it only is 2x4 base)

[glass gull]

:D

Nearly 15 thousand beavers lived and died in this colony, from a single broken cart about to be overrun by brambles all the way into a 600 strong metropolis covering a solid chunk of the map in cycle-round greenery regardless of the whims of nature.

And I finally could check what map I'd done all this on. Thanks for the great terrain Janleon!

[radiant arch]

regarding power consumption of kitchens:
isn't 300 for the mecha kitchen pretty high, given it has 4 workers on top now? 50% more than a factory? like i'll need 2 solar plants to power 3 for all recipes, which seems.. slightly too much?

also 1k for the clockwork kitchen, after it consumed huge amounts of nuclear fuel, enough to build a bot legion with, seems oddly high, doesn't it? it's just stirring some soup? (i'll not ask what it does with the fuels..)
that's twice the foundry energy need - or same as advanced sawmill.

[cloud flax]

I think it might just be by that time you are expected to have gone beyond large water wheels and generate power using nuclear power plants .. and these might just be the power dumps for these large power plants

Atleast the clockwork kitchen

[radiant arch]

lemonade stands can't overlap with squewers / overhangs sadly. (map reader mod)

[radiant arch]

basic nuclear reactor is around as expensive as a clockwork kitchen. 🤔 okay, that one makes kinda sense given timing and all (just feels odd given what it actually does).

having a situation with limited water power/ difficult transfer around map. it felt like there was a gap here still.
especially the mechanized kitchens are doable regular pre-ENS option. offer nothing exciting beyond it too, having just the old regular kitchen stews.

[cloud flax]

Tbh you just need 1 for delux stew. Others can still be made without workers in other buildings

[radiant arch]

having only 1 food item left for every 3rd beaver is bad, isn't it?

[heavy lodge]

You should really ask this ? 😮 🤣

[crisp parcel]

you welcome! thx for sharing

[wooden lark]

Is this the right place to ask a question about the White Paws faction?

[cloud flax]

Yess

[shell fiber]

true, leftover from when i made it automated i think.

[shell fiber]

nah, it should be lower

[shell fiber]

that's odd, does any other upgrade work in that specific location ?
i see no difference in the 2 buildings properties

[shell fiber]

mechanized kitchen 300 -> 70
CW kitchen 1000 -> 350 (similar to CW farms)

sorry sometime i just input whatever without looking at other similar buidlings

if anything the most power intensive buildings should be heavy industrial stuff, like the giant sawmill, foudry, factory and assembly line

and the ENS

but eeeh

[radiant arch]

i believe i had this with a hauler upgrade once too, at a cliff. used platform + bridge there to build from top i think.

[shell fiber]

hmm...well of course removing all the log and plank balloon reciepes triggers that fucking crash again...

[radiant arch]

lovely detail how mines loose the fire while flooded

[shell fiber]

well, if the game won't let me do what i want, i can always outstupid it

since the log and plank balloon trades are kind of pointless but can't be remove, i can make them less pointless, maybe

so now they are "beg for logs" and "beg for planks"

which gives you planks or logs in exchange for nothing

except they cost science to run

[heavy lodge]

beg for logs are, more likely, for LeafCoats (to prevent plant murderer debuff) 😮

[shell fiber]

oh, if you ask them for planks or logs, you lose 3x more science per reciepe 😅

just because they're really the worst one to ask for that 😅

[heavy lodge]

better than to kill trees 🤣

[shell fiber]

thankfully the whitepaws have no regard for plant life 🙂

anyway, gotta go !

[radiant arch]

killing off all the berries and bramble is a happy milestone of every game

[cloud flax]

I don't think I have ever done that

[radiant arch]

why not? once i get to the GMO it's usually time to burn it all down and grow grapes and sequoias instead. such a waste to keep those huge fields virtually unused 🙂

tree nursery alone cuts down brambles to 40% the space need (i keep some for decoration, but it's virtually unneeded for me)

[cloud flax]

I never tried whitepaws on a map that's small or lacks space...

So usually there will be some wild brambles and berries here and there

[stiff flint]

I keep berry fields as long as a can but the don't scale well for natural harvesting

[sullen cape]

Did the Devs ever remove recipes from buildings?
It seems silly, you can remove buildings and they disappear from your game when you load them, why not the same for recipes? Should just default to no recipe or the first one instead of crashing

[shell fiber]

yeah i'm getting irritated with that... debugging this BS is really time-consuming i might just change the prefab names of the buildings. problem is that would erase balloons in pretty much everyone's saves which is unpleasant

[rapid trench]

for my saves I wouldn't mind at all, and with the trading recipes changing, which and how many a given settlement needs changes anyway; personally I say go for this option if it's more convenient for you

[shell fiber]

it's still not very good practice, but at this point i have no choice, it's incredibly difficult to roll back.

[radiant arch]

if you could give me the crashing update i'd try to make a patch that simply ignores non-existing recipes / unset them ?

it's too sad to again need to break peoples saves for such a stupid reason, isn't it?

[shell fiber]

oh, well i wouldn't be breaking people's saves, just their balloons

that would all disappear and be science locked again

[radiant arch]

okay, i would cry a moment and cheat them back if that's all it was ..

[shell fiber]

yeah but that's not that simple for all the blokes using it on steam

[radiant arch]

you want a patch instead? to not bother renaming it and just change recipes however you like?

[sullen cape]

Maybe we could recreate the problem ourselves?

Personally I think this could be a bug report or feature request

[radiant arch]

maybe. just trying to figure out what lapan tried to do and make something like it is twice the effort.
there's also nothing in it for timberborn to add this feature imho, as it hides an actual unintended 'problem'.

[sullen cape]

As I understand, the game is looking for a missing recipe, not finding it, and having a tantrum instead of having error handling. An error handler for missing recipes seems like half an hour of work, most of it testing
What do you do if a building is set to a missing recipe? Some vanilla and Waterbeavers buildings have "None" options that would be a nice safe default, but not all of them do

Sorry I beat you lol

[radiant arch]

that's true in itself. yet it would also hide unintended changes and it surplus code not used commonly

not sure anyone beside lapan is refactoring recipes this much either

seriously.. who had the idea to apply growth boost to wild brambles... 🤯

it's nice it works on trees too, but on brambles.. that's .. weird

[shell fiber]

i'm not payed enough to fix that crap 😅

but i managed to grab the tip of the problem's tail

these are leafcoats balloons

or rather they would be if i hadn't forget to change the model's name

it will take me a bit of time but i'll fix that mess, i still have the previous version packaged so i have the IDs of all the previous reciepes

that will make my filing quite a clusterfuck because some reciepe is called "nenuphartrade" while it gives tools but whatever 🙄

anyway, have some work to do

(real life work i mean)

see ya later

whelp, nope, all the clean benches are full...

[radiant arch]

this tree might be my new nuclear reactor (and sawmill and abyss tbh). only 800 days to go 🙂

[sullen cape]

Damn, have a good day at work 🙂

[sullen cape]

Wait I can't plant crops at the base of my Sequoia...

I should try that map next haha, but maybe for Leafcoats

Oh and I haven't had time to play with Tubeways yet 🤣

[radiant arch]

not sure this map is big on tubeways.. would need bridges

[radiant arch]

oh, just found out you can now

tricky as you need to keep that one tile empty for the tree to replant

path works too, which is a huge help with them

[sullen cape]

Yeah I think Ziplines are perfect for that map

[radiant arch]

had fun with folktails and ziplines

till cycle 15, everything researched and built and only waiting on the wonder to complete

that was soooo weird.. to understate the experience

like look at those? that's a stage just before ENS and plenty to explore and much unbuild yet. and folktails game was over like that (+120k unused science points)

twice as long into the game and thrice the number of beavers my whitepaws only just got the big industries starting

[radiant arch]

trade gone conquest love it!

or to say it in beaver: "To adapt to the post-apocalyptic world, beavers needed some extreme measures"

[cloud flax]

Yayyyyyyy

These might bring the biggest change in the tech tree I believe

[radiant arch]

demolish highlight looks a little odd still with those.
pillar can be build before base too (again?), or at least in this case, where the ground below isn't even started to build yet.
this will not survive save&load anyway. just found it curious

regarding my sequoias: they not like it when there's a path on 0,0 -> wont plant again.
it can be marked there, if all is path or free around the actual tree, just not plant.
they been fine with cabbages or grapes~~ they just must not be marked for planting while replanting the sequoia.~~
i like it, yet it's odd and likely should not be relied on.

[shell fiber]

ah, shit. well here goes that improvement

[radiant arch]

did more testing and it is working for me.
as long as you are fine with planting below them? (limited to grapes, berries and cabbage, anything else is too high)

actually really really helpful to put grapes there

[shell fiber]

i'm fine with that but i need to reseve the planting square somehow 🤔

[shell fiber]

also i though i had fixed that crap

fml

[radiant arch]

looks like there's more to the pillars.. at least the long one. they might not allow for mega platforms on z=2 for no visible reason

trying to place one makes the overlay vanish on this position (sometimes??), or red

curiously did not hit this spot on my first tower, but got to improvise much on the neighbour

[shell fiber]

it seems that this survives just fine

it is somewhat ugly, but if functionnaly that's not an issue, i think i'm fine with it

in large part because i can't find any way to fix it

otherwise we fall back on the bug that freezed the game with no warning

[shell fiber]

that said i wonder how you managed that, because on my side the destruction tool channels properly

ah, right, the giant sequoia (plant) issue

seems to be working 🤔

[radiant arch]

i could not get this to work at all when testing it.. odd..
but had it too, that they not liked to plant at first when my cabbage was marked for planting, and later i could use it just fine.

glad if it was just something off with my game 🙂

[shell fiber]

small improvement so it's easier to keep track of the tile that the sequoia needs

also the 'ghost' is in the right place

i wonder if i can make the 3D model a bit better, right now it's really just a big pine tree 🤔

ngl i also really like the bright yellow of the leaves when the plant is dry 🤔

[shell fiber]

they are a lot more fluffy now

but the red is a bit too red

[radiant arch]

red might do with a second tone to fully shine? like red+yellow = fall or red+green=christmas ?

love the way you enhanced the model! looks real impressive!

[shell fiber]

i think it looks a bit too fluffy maybe 🤔
i think sequoias are supposed to have a long naked trunk before the leaves

i'll see what i can do with the vertex paint

[shell fiber]

much Better

'ill rename them "golden sequoia" or something just for the sake of clearing the confusion about the color

[shell fiber]

i improved the top leaves a little bit

also, the game gets confused by the tree occupancy

once the tree is planted, the planting order remains, but if you remove it, you can't replace it

untill the tree is cut of course

also i've been working on a little something 😉

pretty sure that front module wasn't supposed to be grey though 😑

[cloud flax]

How the power input gonna work now 👀

But finally we gonna be using the front

[shell fiber]

power input is as before

[cloud flax]

Won't that tile be occup though.... Eh, I will wait till the update comes.

[last goblet]

I have a lot of lumberjack flags, but they are not collecting the bananas...
I marked the area to cut trees
i'm forgeting something?

I don't want to put another build to collect them (woodfeling planification lodge or lumberjack's barn) because i have ~80 unemployed beavers

[cloud flax]

Unmark and remark the area for cutting and try it

[last goblet]

It didn’t work :/

12 greenhouses full of bananas :/

[last goblet]

I need a path inside the greenhouse?

[cloud flax]

The gate shouldn't be blocked

They can only enter from the gate

And only mark the inside of the greenhouse

[shell fiber]

i think i have fixed that recently, or is it on my current build 🤔

[shell fiber]

i've been itching to improve this one for a while now

two buildings can "smooch" and form a bridge

or directly carry a bridge 😉

[sullen cape]

DNA enhancement hmmm

[shell fiber]

.

those beavers are a bit large 😓

[shell fiber]

update incomming !

[shell fiber]

only on mod.io for now

tell me if things implode

or explode

[radiant arch]

that part about the kitchen needing more space now.. that got me worried to reload..

[shell fiber]

it's actually a new building, the old one just got deprecated 😉

[radiant arch]

awesome! love you!

[cloud flax]

New decoration!!!!!! Yayyyyyy

Wait, is it just the new kitchen?

Damnnnn another super nice building like florist lodge... Would be interesting to see how all it can be used :D

[radiant arch]

Beaver doesn't have a Ananas found in save, ignoring it.

got a crash: KeyNotFoundException: The given key 'DrillBits' was not present in the dictionary.

looks like a misspelling: it's Drillbits in other definitions

fixing it in Blueprints/recipes/RecipeSpecification.Screwaxle2.json resolves that crash

next crash: KeyNotFoundException: The given key 'Apple' was not present in the dictionary.

replacing it with Apple_WP in airship 'ananas' and 'grand tour' recipes fixed that

game loaded after changing those three lines

looks like only 354 ananas got lost

[shell fiber]

oh, let me check if i can restore BW compatibility

[shell fiber]

ah, probably the need wasn't backward compatible, so they all rushed to raid your apple warehouse 🤔

anyway, rebuilding with the airship reciepe fixed, as well as the drillbits typo

[radiant arch]

a busy whitepaws city still looks cool 🙂

[radiant arch]

they might have carried that many. i had likely 1k or more in airships inventory.

[shell fiber]

hmm...odd

[radiant arch]

the inventory is converted alright

says 400+ apples for the first airship alone

oh, the assembly lost the recipe.. that might have been it too.. no idea..

[shell fiber]

ah, the one for parfaits, yes

[radiant arch]

one request for abyss tourism / medical centers: it would be easier to use them, if the had an archway instead
like if you could keep the path / shaft in place and not had to disconnect abyss while building them

[shell fiber]

hmm... not impossible to do but a bit clunky to model

uploading to steam too since there seems to be nothing major

[radiant arch]

can't see nothing major, no

something very minor:
could you please make this one tile above the deep pump less occupying?
can place it the other way over the 'roof' part, just not this way

occupation above terrace kitchen roof seems broken too. can't place anything on them

it selects the 'floor' of the kitchen when i hover anything

[shell fiber]

ah, yes, had forgot stackability

okay, rebuilding again

[cloud flax]

somehow all my clock kitchens got demolished....

the new dams look awesome!!!!

and so does the tea house! :D

[radiant arch]

is there a message in your player log about the vanishing clockworks? (not sure it says anything beyond 'removing it' though..)

mine survived

[shell fiber]

oh, crap did i add some extra part to it ?

the beaver / bot sitting space was already here right ?

i didn't change anything else 🤔

[cloud flax]

My last save was in 5.3.4 so maybe it was too big a jump? Will check the logs later. How to check the logs though?

[radiant arch]

one of my hands of soup suddenly denies to connect to path when placed on top of the wine cellar..
it works anywhere else but there it seems

all of the fixes seem to work otherwise (at least for me)

minor: airship has ananas for recipe name and symbol under 'trade' choices

[stiff flint]

building on top of the tea houses isn't working correctly

[shell fiber]

are you sure youhave the latest update ? 5.3.9

works fine on my side

[stiff flint]

also have a power problem on the tourism center.... medical facility is working perfectly

I can attatch platforms to the sides of the terrace but not the levee part of the tea house

5.3.8.... patching now

5.3.9 solves the tea house problem.... but i'm still showing "no power connection" for the tourism center

[radiant arch]

oh, there's another crash - when clicking on the workshop-list menu it's going with a:
NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object

can't really tell which one caused that (yet)

hmm. can't figure it out. did randomly select different buildings and hovered the recipe options and nothing crashed.
only when opening the list of all production buildings it happens.

[radiant arch]

not expected them to be this big, tbh, but looks real cool this way!

[radiant arch]

this has been missing all the time - just the place to chill after work (and snack on the decorations)

[cloud flax]

||Damnnn that wood is thick||

[radiant arch]

"the stew was particularly tasty tonight"

[last goblet]

Same error to me :/

[heavy spruce]

Yeah, the buildings where beavers can eat multiple food types at once to get multiple food/drink bonuses 🥹 🙏

[shell fiber]

this one probably min/max-ed the height / width random values 😅

[cloud flax]

Oooh they can be randomised!! Noiceee

[shell fiber]

i'll try to look into it

[shell fiber]

could reproduce it

hopefully that's not too obtuse to debug

[woeful sun]

Let me know if you figure out the issue with ManufactoryRecipeSliderToggleFactory.Create. I can possibly add something to More Mod Logs to write the name of the manufactory as a log message if needed.

It might just be that ProductionRecipes on the Manufactory is null

[shell fiber]

quick question, did that use to work before the last update ?

[woeful sun]

also the crash in player.log would be more useful than the exception snippet

specifically the Timberborn.WorkshopsUI.ManufactoryRecipeSliderToggleFactory+<CreateItems>d__4.MoveNext () (at <ae7b457d69d14e44873688452756d4ee>:0) line should have a number in square brackets like this: Timberborn.WorkshopsUI.ManufactoryRecipeSliderToggleFactory+<CreateItems>d__4.MoveNext () [0x12345] (at <ae7b457d69d14e44873688452756d4ee>:0) (where the 0x12345 is).

[shell fiber]

hmm, i could open the crash-inducing tab on a save that doesn't contain much

this screen right ? takes a solid second to load, but seems to work

[woeful sun]

WorkplacesBatchControl would be the third tab I think

[shell fiber]

i didn't have any issue with it either 🤔

[radiant arch]

it was a very late game, so it likely had anything build but the new abyss buildings and the wonder

i don't know which of yesterday's updates caused it, or if any before, as i not use that tab usually

the exception was copied from players.log, but i might look at it again to see if there was a number

[woeful sun]

Sometimes Often? it's present twice

once with the IL offsets and once without

I'm guessing it'll be 0x0005b?

if it is then that means that ProductionRecipes is null

which is unlikely, because that means Manufactory.Awake was never called,

or if it's 0x000a2, then ProductionRecipe.UIIcon (from RecipeSpec.Icon) is null

[radiant arch]

at Timberborn.WorkshopsUI.ManufactoryRecipeSliderToggleFactory+<CreateItems>d__4.MoveNext () [0x000a2] in

no icon sounds more likely / easier to debug

[woeful sun]

yea

[radiant arch]

so the idea is any of the new / changed recipes is missing an icon / declaring a non-existing one?

[woeful sun]

Try this to see if it prints a useful error message

[radiant arch]

diff reports it's Shellnecklace in a recipe, while asset only has shellnecklace

will run more logs first and test that possible misspelling some after

also MediumCauldron in recipe versus Mediumcauldron in asset file names

[woeful sun]

I don't think they case sensitive. I had to make timbertrees case-insentive to be able to load a bunch of waterbeaver stuff.

[radiant arch]

no idea. this is on a proton (linux) so they might for me?

that was reason for the first crash too yesterday

can't see anything new in the log

what was supposed to change?

[woeful sun]

uhhhh, hopefully not, I think names are converted to lowercase when the asset bundle is built

just above the exception you should see a timestamped line with ManufactoryRecipeSliderToggleFactory.Create failed with an exception

[radiant arch]

that's there

[woeful sun]

and any lines after that mentioning missing Icon?

[radiant arch]

no

[woeful sun]

🙁

[radiant arch]

10:11:32 ManufactoryRecipeSliderToggleFactory.Create failed with an exception
First uncaught exception at 2025-10-02 10:11:32Z

NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object

[shell fiber]

i have zero understanding of what you're talking about 😓

but i can take a look a the reciepe for medium cauldron and shellnecklace, although i'm pretty sure they have their icons

[woeful sun]

the crashing code is one of the operations in productionRecipe.UIIcon.Value

just to double check -- which game version are you running on?

[shell fiber]

well indeed the icon does not have a capital C

[radiant arch]

0.7.10.10

[woeful sun]

yea, I'm looking at that in ILSpy, good

oh, did the trace change?

i.e. did it crash in the error reporter?

[shell fiber]

i'll try to get the bug

[radiant arch]

the at Timberborn.WorkshopsUI.ManufactoryRecipeSliderToggleFactory+<CreateItems>d__4.MoveNext () [0x000a2] in <ae7b457d69d14e44873688452756d4ee>:0 ?

that's the same

[woeful sun]

and still only the 1 traceback (printed twice)

[radiant arch]

the difference in case was just a wild guess. testing it now, but not expecting that to be an issue much really

[woeful sun]

ahh, maybe UIIcon can't be null because it's a Record,

bbuuuutt, then why crash?

[radiant arch]

yeah.. fixing the spelling made no difference..

looks like it will need some more log output to figure this one out, like what building or what recipe that was

[shell fiber]

seems to work fine on my side 🤔

[radiant arch]

well, it might be a weird edge case when a certain building is present or something. i can do without this menu anyway

[woeful sun]

added extra extra logging

aaaand it's broken

[radiant arch]

yeah, gave no additional detail, sadly

looking at it there seems to be some edge case with overhangs too
the one supporting the wonder basin just vanished with a Loaded BlockObject WALL_Overhang.Whitepaws(Clone) at (21, 65, 7) is not supported by terrain physics. Deleting it.

[woeful sun]

yea, but it fails in ManufactoryRecipeSliderToggleFactoryPatch.Finalizer instead right?

[radiant arch]

as if it wanted to tell me off for defying gravity or something..

[radiant arch]

no?

NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object
  at Timberborn.WorkshopsUI.ManufactoryRecipeSliderToggleFactory+<CreateItems>d__4.MoveNext () [0x000a2] in <ae7b457d69d14e44873688452756d4ee>:0 
  at System.Collections.Generic.LargeArrayBuilder`1[T].AddRange (System.Collections.Generic.IEnumerable`1[T] items) [0x0003d] in <56bcb176486e400396fc9557eca2a147>:0 

no finalizer mentioned anywhere in this log

[woeful sun]

but the timestamped ManufactoryRecipeSliderToggleFactory.Create() failed with an exception message is no longer there?

yea, because it can't find a Prefab from the Manufactory

[shell fiber]

screenshot ?

[radiant arch]

will try to rebuild it, but will take some time

this one, attached to the lowest block in that column

could not attach a dirt block here, but place the overhang. it not survived save&load

attaching it one tile above did survive save&load (or at any position that it was valid to attach a dirt block to)

[woeful sun]

I've giving up for the night. I can't get my code to find the name of the building, nor it's recipes. (It only finds one null recipe in the water dump, which is clearly wrong).

so maybe with a fresh look (no earlier than the weekend) it'll make more sense

and of course as soon as I stood up, I realized what was wrong

try this one

[radiant arch]

The given key Building.FluidDump.FlavorDescription was not present in the dictionary.
11:29:59 ManufactoryRecipeSliderToggleFactory.Create(Trebuchet) failed with an exception
11:29:59   RockToss has null UIIcon
11:29:59   BombToss has null UIIcon

[radiant arch]

thanks and a good night to you

[woeful sun]

niiiiiice

ciao

[radiant arch]

@shell fiber there's two incomplete RecipeSpecification for RockToss and SteelToss (aka BombToss or KABOOM inside the file).
adding an "Icon" to both fixed it for me.
crash might have happened before just by clicking the trebuchet technically (not tested) or the menu of all production buildings.

why did i not know about this feat.. need to build a 2nd to throw those at the wonder now..

[radiant arch]

sadly my map is too small to run it at full speed of 20 metal blocks / 50 dynamites per hour..
would have been a nice way to research the wonder though. ~32 days (or 25k abyss dynamite) for one wonder sounds alright

looking at the balancing i'm not sure if this is odd and distillery isn't up to much (it would need 2-3 this late into the game i suppose?)

frost essence
    recipe: +1.5/h
            -3.33 mints
            -1.33 water

    => uses 90 to 430 bamboo plants depending on well-being

    => needs _0.33_ dists for full clinic's frost balm *edit: rarely utilised really*
    => needs _1_ dist to satisfy 500 beavers parfait needs *edit: much less in late game*
        => single alchemist can handle up to **4.5** dists worth of essence
        => single parfait maker can handle up to **5** dists worth of essence

    => trebuchet alone would use up a full distillery worth of essence on dynamite rn
        (the abyss lab can run 10x as much, using up to 4k bamboo plants theoretically)

so with my 500 beavers and the clinic still running it was around 120 plants of bamboo needed to keep it up??

and no extra to make any dynamite this way as i'd want another 200 at least for that

actually the total amount of bamboo works out and the distillery seems to scale fine somehow.
just the other recipes are somehow much much faster which appeared odd to me, as they only get very low productivity.
especially the dynamite recipe, which i can very rarely utilise lacking the amount of bamboo.

yeah, just me needing much more bamboo. single distillery likely is plenty for most of the game still -> new ice block route for polar beaver trading certainly helps a lot here!

[radiant arch]

something else i somewhat missed late-game was a GMO version for the red mushrooms. currently running on 4th tent to use ENS science at half speed.

[shell fiber]

ah, indeed, someone asked for an outlet for metal, i started getting on it and then got distracted or interrupted

[shell fiber]

i'm completely lost on what numbers you're trying to crunch here 🤔

[shell fiber]

yeah i figured buying the ice could be actually the best option, maybe 🤔

[shell fiber]

uuuh, yeah, sure why not ?🤔
never really gave it much though

[radiant arch]

sorry, wasn't sure about it myself by the time i wrote it down 😅

[shell fiber]

i could fix that

or rather, it turns out the "can be attached to walls" also required an extra scripts that checks for the validity of placign a dirt block in that spot

turns out the side platforms has to obey that too

[radiant arch]

the most fitting worker for this, isn't he?

[sullen cape]

Did you design your own map? I'm thinking of doing one for the Leaf coats

[heavy spruce]

that support rarely ever survived save & load for me, regardless of where i placed it

[radiant arch]

well, seems it has the exact same constraint as any dirt block, just missed the check for it

[heavy spruce]

I was using it to stretch the distance dirt could overhang by 1 block 😅

[radiant arch]

same here 🙂

[heavy spruce]

can we get an overhang platform specifically for stretching dirt overhangs 1 more block?
Like putting giant threaded rods through the last 2-3 blocks of dirt to support a platform on which dirt can be placed.
Cons would be that it can only go in dirt (or levees) preventing you putting a ladder or anything else through the ground, but you can still plant on the tile (like the x mark from the levees)

[prisma merlin]

Damn I love this game and the mod but this is really pushing the limit of my laptop only gaming experience

How do you find out if you're ram or CPU limited? Is it only by looking at resource manager?

I have 32 gigs of ram but it feels inadequate lol

[radiant arch]

wouldn't ram limited mean it goes to swap using disk? or just crash?

on my old cpu going at 500 beavers on a small map is barely possible to speed up 3x. anything more, bigger map, bigger colony, and it's beyond capacity

at low graphic settings

[radiant arch]

beavers not appear to go to abyss clinic for major burns it seems.
might this have to do with a full gauge on somatic dna enhancement?

[shell fiber]

next update 🙂

[heavy spruce]

I get why this might not be allowed

But why isn't this allowed 🥺

[cloud flax]

Not sure why the paths to medium tanks arent connecting

[radiant arch]

what kind of building is below those?

i had that exact same issue when building on top of the GMO wine cellar since recent update

[cloud flax]

the wine cellars

[radiant arch]

looks like that one is buggy

[cloud flax]

is there independent power input to this??

[rapid trench]

I confirm it just crashes for me, I also have 32 gigs ram and even with only timberborn running on large maps with 1.5k+ beavers I have to be very careful to avoid crashes (I find building mode and path highlighting, especially without pausing, are particularly prone to it)

[radiant arch]

this might take some time, but it will be cool 🙂

(those trees are awesome if you want to hide things from your beavers)

[rapid trench]

I doubt they protect the beavers from the exhaust fumes, but some sacrifices are necessary 🙃

[plain kite]

i've just tried loading into the game and it crashes. The error log : NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object System.Collections.Immutable.ImmutableArray1[T].get_Length () (at <6bb08d37de124a778ca2954872cc5e3e>:0)
System.Collections.Immutable.ImmutableArray1[T].IndexOf (T item) (at <6bb08d37de124a778ca2954872cc5e3e>:0) System.Collections.Immutable.ImmutableArray1[T].Contains (T item) (at <6bb08d37de124a778ca2954872cc5e3e>:0)
Timberborn.Workshops.Manufactory+<>c__DisplayClass56_0.<Load>b__1 (Timberborn.Workshops.RecipeSpec recipe) (at <674a4f4306b24a2ebe0e5892ff226cad>:0)
System.Linq.ImmutableArrayExtensions.SingleOrDefault[T] (System.Collections.Immutable.ImmutableArray1[T] immutableArray, System.Func2[T,TResult] predicate) (at <6bb08d37de124a778ca2954872cc5e3e>:0)
Timberborn.Workshops.Manufactory.Load (Timberborn.WorldPersistence.IEntityLoader entityLoader) (at <674a4f4306b24a2ebe0e5892ff226cad>:0)
Timberborn.WorldPersistence.WorldEntitiesLoader.LoadEntity (Timberborn.WorldPersistence.InstantiatedSerializedEntity serializedEntity) (at <3037797009454b6392a4cd86c8153335>:0)
Timberborn.WorldPersistence.WorldEntitiesLoader.LoadEntities (System.Collections.Generic.IEnumerable1[T] instantiatedSerializedEntities) (at <3037797009454b6392a4cd86c8153335>:0) Timberborn.WorldPersistence.WorldEntitiesLoader.LoadNonSingletons () (at <3037797009454b6392a4cd86c8153335>:0) Timberborn.SingletonSystem.SingletonLifecycleService.LoadNonSingletons () (at <c2ac3e6cf4d444f5a53bad760fa331db>:0) (wrapper dynamic-method) MonoMod.Utils.DynamicMethodDefinition.Timberborn.SingletonSystem.SingletonLifecycleService.LoadAll_Patch1(Timberborn.SingletonSystem.SingletonLifecycleService) Timberborn.SingletonSystem.SingletonLifecycleUnityAdapter.Start () (at <c2ac3e6cf4d444f5a53bad760fa331db>:0)

[radiant arch]

do you have the latest version installed? (5.3.9)

there's an invalid / deprecrated workshop recipe somewhere

but message not says which building it is from

[plain kite]

Experimental branch . And Whitepaws 5.3.9

[radiant arch]

hmm. can you try with https://mod.io/g/timberborn/m/more-mod-logs / https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3360466655 ?

that might give more ideas as to which building is causing the problem

with those it's often as simple as editing a text file, if you can figure out which it is

oh, wait.. do you have a trebuchet present? (and clicked on that or tried opening the workshop list menu?) -> that is known to be broken still, but only if triggered in game

[plain kite]

i do have a trebuchet on the map , but it crashes during loading.

i will add the more logs mod and retry

[radiant arch]

in theory it might put out a few lines above the exception message in players log that might tell the building

[plain kite]

i think i got it

20:35:54 TimberApi.Tools.ToolSystem.ToolService.Load() executed in 00:00:06.7507852
20:36:07 Manufactory.Load failed with an exception
20:36:07 IronTeeth_ForeignFood_CommonBalloonReciepe is missing BackwardCompatibleIds
20:36:07 BalloonDirt is missing BackwardCompatibleIds
20:36:07 BalloonMetalBlock is missing BackwardCompatibleIds
20:36:07 BalloonRDynamite is missing BackwardCompatibleIds
20:36:07 WorldEntitiesLoader.LoadEntity(WPIronTrader) failed with an exception
20:36:07 Timberborn.WorldPersistence.WorldEntitiesLoader.LoadNonSingletons() failed after 00:00:12.7785858
First uncaught exception at 2025-10-03 20:36:07Z

NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object

I'm 90% sure i had an iron teath ballon active

[radiant arch]

the balloon trader with iron teeth hmm..

fast option: try loading with old version (https://mod.io/g/timberborn/m/water-beaver-overhaul#description), remove balloon (iron teeth ones)
slow option: wait for lapan to fix it

sadly i'm not sure how those particularly are applied..

[heavy lodge]

Now, all sections in a blueprint are mandatory to be present, and , in recipe, "BackwardCompatibleIds": [] is a must to have

[radiant arch]

would an empty field be enough?

[heavy lodge]

Sure, not need to contain something, just the section need to exist

[radiant arch]

wait, does this mean this would be an issue with any other trade route possibly??

@plain kite adding a "BackwardCompatibleIds": [] to Blueprints/BalloonTrade/IronTeeth/RecipeSpecification.BalloonDirt.original.json and co might resolve the issue too

like in

{
  "RecipeSpec": {
    "Id": "BalloonDirt",
  "DisplayLocKey": "Good.Dirt.DisplayName",
  "CycleDurationInHours": 60,
  "CyclesCapacity": 5,
  "Ingredients": [
    {
        "Id": "Satchel",
      "Amount": 5
    },
  ],
  "Products": [
    {
        "Id": "Dirt",
      "Amount": 50
    }
  ],
  "ProducedSciencePoints": 0,
    "Fuel": "",
  "CyclesFuelLasts": 0,
  "FuelCapacity": 0,
  "Icon": "Sprites/Goods/DirtIcon",
  "BackwardCompatibleIds": []
}}

[plain kite]

ok, give me a sec to try that

still crashes , but a different error

First uncaught exception at 2025-10-03 20:54:31Z

Exception: NeedSpec with id Ananas is not used!

Timberborn.GameFactionSystem.NeedVerifier.VerifyAllNeedsAreUsed (System.Collections.Generic.IEnumerable1[T] needSpecs, System.Collections.Generic.ICollection1[T] allFactionNeeds) (at <65ce4d3c48d54cd9b791ef118c030281>:0)
Timberborn.GameFactionSystem.NeedVerifier.Load () (at <65ce4d3c48d54cd9b791ef118c030281>:0)
Mods.MoreModLogs.SingletonSystemPatch.ErrorReporter (System.Action fn) (at C:/Users/***/Documents/src/Timberborn-MoreModLogs/SingletonSystemPatch.cs:61)
(wrapper dynamic-method) MonoMod.Utils.DynamicMethodDefinition.Timberborn.SingletonSystem.SingletonLifecycleService.LoadSingletons_Patch2(Timberborn.SingletonSystem.SingletonLifecycleService)
(wrapper dynamic-method) MonoMod.Utils.DynamicMethodDefinition.Timberborn.SingletonSystem.SingletonLifecycleService.LoadAll_Patch1(Timberborn.SingletonSystem.SingletonLifecycleService)
Timberborn.SingletonSystem.SingletonLifecycleUnityAdapter.Start () (at <c2ac3e6cf4d444f5a53bad760fa331db>:0)

[radiant arch]

experimental branch indeed^^

this is the faction spec.. wait.. this is..

no.. there's no such definition? weird..

Blueprints/Goods/WhitepawsGoods/Special/GoodSpecification.OmniDrink.json does contain something about ananas need, replacing needId: "Ananas" with "Apple_WP" might work??

[plain kite]

1 second. The callStack has somethig related to Automation ( i use that mod as well)

Failed to create an exception game save due to exception: System.NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object
at Timberborn.SerializationSystem.PrimitiveTypeSerialization.Serialize (System.Object value) [0x002b5] in <313804ca0b894284913597204dbec43f>:0
at Timberborn.SerializationSystem.SerializedObject.Set[T] (System.String name, T value) [0x00000] in <313804ca0b894284913597204dbec43f>:0
at Timberborn.Persistence.ObjectSaver.Set (Timberborn.Persistence.PropertyKey`1[T] key, System.String value) [0x0000d] in <bc93bf5cb6d142639d35aef1103b3d27>:0
at IgorZ.Automation.ScriptingEngine.ScriptableComponents.WeatherScriptableComponent.Save (Timberborn.WorldPersistence.ISingletonSaver singletonSaver) [0x0000b] in <70415bde15cb4d1a9d3d63411c79001d>:0

i'l try remove it

[radiant arch]

it might be that mods not are up to experimental branch

so this is likely really helpful to lapan or others to prepare for changes ahead of time

[plain kite]

was working fine last week.

[plain kite]

no luck removing that mod. I will try this one

[cloud flax]

is it just me or the ruin mines are no longer going to the bottom of the map?

[radiant arch]

oh, did he fix that?

whitepaws been the only faction that had it enforced i believe

[cloud flax]

RIP... Should i just shift the abyss down by a layer 😭

[radiant arch]

map resizer?

[cloud flax]

does it increase the height?

[radiant arch]

it can be used for that, yes

basically it creates a save with extended sizes if you want it to

[radiant arch]

@shell fiber summary for you above about the bugs and list of conflicting files

[cloud flax]

what was the mod that allows you to see the grid coordinates??

[radiant arch]

https://mod.io/g/timberborn/m/super-cursor-extra-info-for-cursor-tool#description ?

(just sounded like something luke would make, so guessing here)

[cloud flax]

hmm JC uses it. Its not this but it showed coordinates around the seasons bar

it was timprove 4 UX

it shouldnt break the game hopefully.... planning mega builds is tough

[last goblet]

You can put the graphics setting on high or ultra...
Even a MX150 Nvidia from a laptop (2008) is sufficient to run on ultra
I tested 🙂 there's no fps change in run on ultra or low...

The CPU is the problem...
On my desktop I have a Ryzen7 5700x3D, 16 threads on 4.5GHz (i think)
But the game uses only 200% or 300% of CPU :/
With 1k beavers, i cannot run on 3x speed

[radiant arch]

well, i have to use proton to run it, so there's extra CPU on visuals

[last goblet]

Me too...
I stopped to use windows on XP...

[radiant arch]

usually on a late 400-500 settlement on a small map it's around 10-15 fps for medium settings on 3x speed which works for me
slightly bigger maps get to single digit on that.
ultra forces it to 1-3 fps on single speed

maybe my setup is broken and it is not using the driver? ...

[last goblet]

Probably... :/

I tested it right now on my desktop...
on ultra: 21~21 fps
on low: 19~20 fps

1094 beavers

[radiant arch]

possible more recipes missing the compat ids

[radiant arch]

.... looks like playing with steam settings fixed my client to allow workshop again 🤯 thanks @last goblet for encouraging me to try something about it

and it just was a version mismatch on the proton and now i can play with ultra settings

at better performance even..

sooo different..

[cloud flax]

The Hot Springs hidden under the mountain.... This ate my head too much even when i was planning ||using dev mode||

[radiant arch]

i like your use of underground lines

[plain kite]

@radiant arch Thx for help yesterday. I got it to work. After multiple try and error i had to :

1. Add "BackwardCompatibleIds": [] to every .json file from BalloonTrade\IronTeeth

2. Add a new line for Ananas in Faction.Whitepaws.json ( Path : Blueprints\Factions) : Ive added : "Ananas", // +3

3. It was not related to the Automation mod. I've added it back and it works.

[heavy spruce]

Im getting a weird issue when I build a super-fertilizing irrigation bath, no recipe is selected, then when I load in, it deselects the irrigation recipe...
So the building consumes water without irrigating...

[radiant arch]

what a nice amount of dynamite

does it actually stop the irrigation too? the selected item not highlighting is known, but should not stop it from working. (actually should be same for other irrigation towers)

[cloud flax]

Should prolly invest in a gargantuam warehouse

[cloud flax]

Those lines go the the underground jail and torture facility:P

[heavy spruce]

Yes, the irrigation doesn't work either

I put in a "small" lake

it needed just a little dynamite...

[radiant arch]

really surprised me to see how cheap those actually are

[cloud flax]

End game they are fairly cheap

Mid game still it might be a bit tough

[grand rain]

those balloons are really cool

[heavy spruce]

It was a birthday explosion, it needed balloons, count the dynamite to guess my age

[radiant arch]

10296?

[heavy spruce]

Add a 0 and double 👍

[bitter storm]

I was binge-watching JC's U6 WBO play through since EP12, since I had gotten busy then and am free now (currently at 36) and I thought of a mod that might be helpful

This mod would allow you to see the current rate of production of goods and the current rate of consumption of each of the goods in each of the buildings

This would help JC a lot lol

[woeful sun]

Good Statistics gives global numbers, but not per building.

The building "Productivity" is sort of a measure of that

I thought it might be a nice mod to highlight the blocking good, i.e. the one that's missing, or too much has been produced. eg: #🤖mod-creators message

Another issue is also not many mods are being newly created for Update 6. So many of the new mods won't be useable.

[bitter storm]

Well my thoughts were that if there was a list of numbers regarding production rate it would be much easier for JC, and significant reduction in headache

[woeful sun]

There's only a single production rate though

The rate for the currently selected recipe

[bitter storm]

No I meant the rate of production for the ingredients of that recipe

[crisp parcel]

love the work you put in ont the ground in that cave 😄 thx for sharing

[last goblet]

Guys, where's the Observation Deck and Dance Hall?
And how can i have a prosthetic for my maimed beaver?

[radiant arch]

maimed technically go to abyss medical center (not sure it's working reliably rn though)
the floating balloon zipline has an observation deck
if you still see a 'dance hall' you likely have an old version. try updating to current one -> there never was a dance hall and the leftover 'need' was disabled recently
(there's also nothing to satisfy the 'shrub' need, it's another artifact i guess)

[last goblet]

I'm in the 5.3.5.
I could not open the game in the last version... (a few days ago), so i'll stay in this version for now..
There's no medical center... :/
And shrub i know.. 🙂

[radiant arch]

"this town has surpassed the place they came from" finally 🙂

[heavy lodge]

A solution exist : #1070709592176197642 message until the author will fix himself .

[silent lark]

Ok i need help, I recet made a new map with the new update with rope, Im strugging to get more. Obviously im trying to get a Tree Nursery, which takes 10 rope, but also needs 300 dirt. I saw that can be traded with the Iron teeth (ballon takes 4 rope) which needs Satchels from the seamstress, but requires 3 rope for 5 satchel for only 50 dirt each time (needs a total of 30 rope which i dont have), or build a drill which requires 20 rope (and more science again after the nursery) . I already had to take down all my bad water pumps (1 ech) and medical beds (1 ech). I have 14 unused rope (10 is sitting in the Nursery ready to build so i dont spend it) with 2 balloons (4 each i can take down).... How do i get the nursery without spending so much rope?!?! I only have 24 and 10 again is needed for the nursery. So i need to build a drill, then demolish it after to make it work?

[rapid trench]

you can make rope in the handicrafter from fibres from the flower garden/terrace (sorry, I don't remember the exact names), or has that changed?

[silent lark]

Oh my god thank you so much, i was struggling so much, i just started getting the drill going then realized i F'ed up when i didnt unlock the robotic arm yet that it needs.

[rapid trench]

no problem; in my first whitepaws game I actually didn't realise you can easily get dirt from trading so I went ahead with only the drill dirt, let's just say setting everything up for that took a bit longer than the trading

[cloud flax]

What are those buildings? The green tower the lamp...
And damnn 8k kimchi!

[radiant arch]

(modified) frog statue by knatte anka and lantern from torii and lanterns mod.

reminds me i need to push a mod for the latter to enable with whitepaws.. or ask the mod creator to use my values.. (edit pinged the original author and passed my patch)

[prisma merlin]

Hello, is there not a way to have a 3 way zipline connection?

[radiant arch]

balloons

zipline tower upgrades have more too, or the scavenger den, which has the most

[prisma merlin]

Ok, that was not obvious for me, @shell fiber, you might want to specify how many connections the zipline buildings can take in their description

[polar wind]

[shell fiber]

i'm back, sorry all, busy weekend

[bitter storm]

issok

[shell fiber]

the upgrade system is just really an abuse of game engine, so i have to make the second option impossible to not allow the first one, also the 3D model would not fit nicely visually 😉

[shell fiber]

what the building underneath ? looks like wineries 🤔

[shell fiber]

are you on the last update ? i think i had fixed that

[shell fiber]

at 1500+ beaver i suspect it's more a game engine issue than a PC specs issue 🤔

[shell fiber]

goddammit, but thanks for the log

and thanks to normanr for the log making thing too 😅 (i think)

[cloud flax]

Yep. I think grau also faced same issue over GMO lab

And since you might be checking those, just reminder on similar issue in the factory of having extra block near the entrance

[cloud flax]

Was on the latest steam update. Will check once again and see

[shell fiber]

ananas should have been removed cleanly, the reason the game complained is that the ananas need from a previou version was not properly removed when updating the mod

[shell fiber]

i'm pretty sure it does irrigate, that's a slight bug from the timbercommons mod. if the reciepe was truly not selected, the game woudl not consume water because there would be no reciepe selected telling it to consume water

okay, fixed the winery roof issue

added connection numbers to the descriptions of the ziplines

wait, didn't the game already do that ?

eh

added the "backward compatiblitity" thing to all balloon reciepes

[shell fiber]

okay, i have made a 5.3.5 save with all balloons running all receiepes, could load just fine 🙂

[shell fiber]

for reference, when you made that map, did the abyss protrude from under the sky island like that ? or is it just the elevator that does ?
i how i have to ajust the model for it, but at the same time that is a very narrow scenario

[radiant arch]

map making shows only a shorter version, so i only see this in game.
here it's 8m deep it seems, without the building. map here only has 6m, which is too little.

building adds 2m extra or so, for a total around 10m i would guess. but the actual moving part only might go to the original depth of the abyss.

imho 5m would be plenty already for it. not really bothered by it much thought.

[shell fiber]

i see... i'll keep that in the back of my mind.

yeah i figured i needed the abyss to be shallower to fit with the sky islands, but then i realized i also need to edit the WP mod too, which is not too hard, but then i realised i needed to review the abyss elevator animation, and my motivation died on the spot 😅

but more importantly, i should have the ruin rewritten entirely so that it reserves a 5x5x6 mass of terrain under itself, but i don't know if that would mess it up

[radiant arch]

not sure it's really a great idea to force occupy any. as most maps aren't specifically made for whitepaws any abyss not fitting the criteria would just vanish

having a smaller depth in the description / visually shown in map editor plugin might be easier

[shell fiber]

oh yeah right, ruins at the bottom of the map would definitely disappear 🤔

okay well scrap that then

[radiant arch]

as much sense as it makes to not be able to tunnel below them. i not really enjoyed it when they force-occupied all below. made them vanish randomly from maps when i forgot a tile far below and forced that giant dirt pillar, which isn't really sweet, visually.

[shell fiber]

btw, i'm "fixing" the irrigation towers by making them use directly resistance factor instead of water, this way delivery by haulers will work properly

to compensate the higer usage, i doubled the output of the distillery

and halved the effect of the potion when drunk by beavers to cure contamination

but then i want to have the tower display the resistance factor as a liquid (as you'd expect) which means for consistency i'll make it a liquid item and not a box

probably a lighter blue liquid 🤔

[radiant arch]

making them a liquid would be cool. always thought they should be.

[shell fiber]

hmm... just realised that birdges don't snap to the entrance of the super fertilizing tower bath 🤔

[radiant arch]

this also impacts abyss brain salt recipe. which is fast already.
not sure it matters much for nuclear fuels, as those are all too fast to make already i'm not even sure how little they use up.

[shell fiber]

good point

by the way, what requires sawdust late game ?

i also made the turbo badshroom reciepe require logs

so effectively pollution resistance factor can be sawdust-free

[radiant arch]

GMOs much. paper..

[shell fiber]

oh

makes sense

[radiant arch]

i don't think there's much that uses sawdust. but foods can run low (berries? brambles? i forgot.. no game open)

most goes to abyss explorations and things made by ENS in form of paper i think

usually i burn it all

especially when buildings things that require logs / planks and want to use the advanced sawmill

rarely using 1 or 2 at gnawing station if there's no demand for logs / planks to avoid food from running out

[rapid trench]

maybe it's just me, but I use it for the mushroom grower well into late game because mushroom grower is not a house 😉

[shell fiber]

so the problem relating to food is only the sawdust consumption by the GMO lab ?

since mushrooms can also be grown from logs with the slow reciepe

[heavy spruce]

thats one difficult to chew stew…

[shell fiber]

well i figured tar would be hard to used when cold, so it has to be kept warm 🤔

[wicked pecan]

i have 2 problems. rock tossing machine crashes game when clicked

and abyss tourism center says no power

[shell fiber]

i'll check

will be fixed in the next update 👍

[wicked pecan]

something wrong in texts and icons

[shell fiber]

you mean the pinapple icon instead of an apple ? it's fixed on my side, next update soon 🙂

i've been working on restoring the hot nuclear press and the advanced warm storage

[wicked pecan]

ok 🙂 my frist run with water beavers. so its bit hard 😄

[spiral sigil]

Makes sense to me to keep it in warm storage

[rapid trench]

that looks amazing for a first run, I think I abandoned 2 of my first time and lost another 2; which map are you playing?

[shell fiber]

most people die a horrible death on their first run, that's pretty good 😉
did you watch some people's playthroughs ?

okay, have to go now, hopefully i can update the mod tomorrow !

[wicked pecan]

watched some of jc videos. well second run as i destroyed cart too fast 🙂 but i dont count that one as real run

[spiral sigil]

I feel starting on the right map is very important, I started first playthriugh in U7 on a map which didn't have a two high cliff.

Bad idea that was.

[stiff flint]

I still die a horrible death half of the games I start.

[spiral sigil]

Only reason I survive is I literally save everyday, when a problem hits. I trace back to what went wrong and play from there fixing it. Even then sometimes a new run is faster way to get to a stage I like

[wicked pecan]

Builders paradise is map and seems to be really good map for this faction https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3484116961&searchtext=

abyssal nuclear plant text says that it need some waterdischard system etc but i cant find it anywhere?

[rapid trench]

oh, that's not how I play, the more difficult the map the better 😉 I played mostly on vanilla maps, and the two losses were mountain range and hollows

[radiant arch]

the fountain right next to it

[wicked pecan]

oh im blind 😄

[wicked pecan]

gotta love these moments...

[rapid trench]

is it not possible to make abyssal plant require one more buildable level above it when trying to place it? that would solve this issue, right?

[wicked pecan]

easy to test when placing. just didint know that so wont bother in future 🙂 but yeah some diff solution might be nice

[radiant arch]

You can use map resizer mod to add the level (in game)

[radiant arch]

it's actually 3 tall with the fountain, so 21 above the abyss entrance or so.. same with sequoias and bamboo..

might be an option to actually just give whitepaws some extra building space on maps 🤔
i believe that's a simple value with the map, that's trivial to add to on load (like force a minimum of 22 or what's needed above ground or something)

@shell fiber would you take such a patch if i made one? and would you know if max height of the sequoia is more than abyss reactor with fountain?

[rapid trench]

whichever is simplest to do, I guess, but I can imagine spending the resources and time to build the abyssal generator and then not being able to place the fountain to be very irritating (fortunately I didn't encounter that problem myself yet)

[radiant arch]

very frustrating indeed.. had to resize lots of my games to get rid of this artificial restriction

[cloud flax]

Paper consumes A LOT!! i have forgotten to turn on my gnawing stations and often left stranded with 0 paper which then impacts pencil sets, research and what not.

Btw, i am not sure, but shouldnt research atleast in ENS take paper and pencil sets as well, as inputs (not sure if the already do though)

[radiant arch]

i just assumed they scribbled on food containers. given how greasy and colourful their paws would be with all the junk food

[cloud flax]

pumpkin chip packets are filled with mysterious equations!

btw, any thoughts on painted tails yet? not sure how to fit that in whitepaws lore

[cloud flax]

same thing happened with me too 😭

[wicked pecan]

and water handling at those heights is pretty impossible. if whole map havent been planned for it. also there is so much easier ways to get water and power so atm i think that whole big nuclear thingy is totally useless. but attleast i have built it now twice.

i mwan technology that is needed to make it is so far that all those problems are allredy solved when u can build that and at that point its just waste of time and resources in it current form

[radiant arch]

it's cool and provides loads of water

it's faster to just go and build the wonder though^^

[wicked pecan]

but its pretty much useless water.

cos at point where u can make it u dont have problems with water anymore. might be usefull if water would be piped down or coming just from one point or something. but its current form its useless. only nice to have thing with huge resource sink

[radiant arch]

you can build aqueducts to guide water

sure, not all maps or playstyles need the water

[wicked pecan]

yes u can to sink even more resources times 3 cos how it spills the water. to archive nothing as all problems that it might solve u have solved allredy earlier. i like complexity of this faction and production chains etc. but that one is just useless

[rapid trench]

depends on your other mods, with progressive difficulty there is hardly a time when you "no longer have problems with water"

[wicked pecan]

yeah that one might be only mod where its usefull.

but for normal/hardmode etc games its useless. for decoration u can use it. but it wont help solving any problems.

[rapid trench]

for me it's also sometimes useful as an extra water source in another location with my house rules of not using the fluid dump and irrigation towers

I guess having it somehow be a wonder perquisite might be an idea to consider, don't know if that was already raised and postponed/rejected

[wicked pecan]

yup it should produce something what we need for something.

i have 1k beavers and all the energy and water i need ( ofc im playing in normal mode as its my first time) but even with hardmode my colony would have sorted problems( or died) before it can be built. or played with really small colony for week or two to get that one done. but yeah it would be usefull in progressive mod

[radiant arch]

not all (small) maps have enough water for 500 or more tbh

power is no issue usually

also sadly not all maps support the reactor either

[rapid trench]

I could also see applications for it in moddable weather with all the weather types, but I haven't actually tested if whitepaws work with it (though I suspect they do)

[radiant arch]

fun to play! even better with ebb&flow adding 1-4% base contamination to sources.. or random 33% extra source strength during monsoon..

can make the abyss even more worth it as it's the literal only source on the map free from any such surprises

[radiant arch]

anyway. here's a patch to allow abyss reactor and tall plants anywhere on the map.
just placing it into Scripts path of mod enables it.
all it does is change 'height above terrain' to be at least 24 (which i hope is fitting) instead of the default 10 only.

tested with new game, old save, diorama map, custom map, map resizer mod and all worked as expected. could place tall things not able to before. no weird messages.
in case some other mod / map sets a bigger height already, that will be used.

[wicked pecan]

project triumph was bit too easy to launch.

my suggestion is that it would need enriched uranium rocket fuel etc. made in big nuclear core and some huuuge amount of it + handling it would attleast halve beaver life

like 1 used nuclear fuel would make 0.001 enriched rocketfuel and triumph would need 1-100k of it etc

[rapid trench]

these numbers are not reasonable, let's say you make 100 used nuclear fuel per day (pretty sure this is an overestimation, but I don't actually remember the numbers for it), that gives 0.1 rocket fuel per day, so at least 10k days with your numbers, I think it should be around 3 orders of magnitude lower

[shell fiber]

hmm... good point, i can probably arrange for that

[shell fiber]

wait how long has this been not working ?

[radiant arch]

never knew this was an option

[shell fiber]

well those giant logs placed with perfect accuracy for snapping aqueducts have a reason to be 😅

[wicked pecan]

Ofc they are not reasonable it was an idea not real thing, numbers were there only to make it clear what I mean. But let's say that production of 100-500 days would be ok.

[shell fiber]

good point indeed

[wicked pecan]

It didint yday even let me to snap other logs to base logs when I was trying that

[shell fiber]

difficult to do, at least without completely arbitrary restrictions

hmm...i've read the comments about the nuclear power plant really not being necessary and how it's easy to complete the wonder without it.
not entirely sure what to do but i'll try to figure a way to link having the reactor up and running (with water) to the ability to launch the rocket.

might need to come up with some new resource indeed, enriched nuclear fuel or whatnot.

actually it's good because i've been wanting to make a building that deletes massive amounts of water but never found a good use for it 😉

[wicked pecan]

Yup and enriched fuel is in reality made in nuclear reactor, so it would be reasonable

🙂

[shell fiber]

thanks !
i'll add it to the mod

[wicked pecan]

But maybe make small reactor to produce small amount of it also so ppl are not forced to make big one, but small one would take 1000 days to produce what needed by it self. Big one 150days. Etc..

[cloud flax]

Tbh I use it for a consistent source of water especially in my underwater farms and my underground water bath sauna setup was only possible using the persistent output from the reactor. Like once I plop it in, I don't have to worry about water drying or evaporation at all in these places

[wicked pecan]

Yeah ofc it's endless water that can be used to make things. And nice things. But it's not necessary. Like I said, it comes so late that all those problems are allredy sorted by other ways. So it's more nice to have thing that really needed thing.

[cloud flax]

And I got toooo many clockwork farms that I do need the nuclear power plant for power... have a total consumption of like 30k or so

[cloud flax]

Not just endless but consistent and reliable. When there is no sluice in picture, them paired with dams works almost like that maintaining the water level always

But ofc I agree that it's for sure more end game than the wonder. Like I had made the wonder waaaaay long before I even thought of building the powerplant

Maybe require the wonder to be powered ☠️🫣

[wicked pecan]

I know. But it is still only nice thing not survival thing. That was my point.

[cloud flax]

Hmmm yeah. But are people still struggling to survive at that point...

It's more of unlocking almost free mode for me atleast

[shell fiber]

not entirely sure the wonder has provisions for that, and poking at it is time consuming

@radiant arch do you know if there is an "easy" script that could make the difficulty progressively harder and harder ? like something that adds one day to min and max drought/temperate/badtide length every few cycles ? just so that end game it becomes vital to have.

[wicked pecan]

There is mod for that and there nuclear thingy would be really usefull

[shell fiber]

the lack of difficulty (and progressiveness of) has always been one of my complaints for this game

hence this abomination of a mod 😅

i have to fold the computer for a while, there's some audit or whatever and personnal computers shouldn't be there they said 😅

see you later !

[cloud flax]

Laterrr

[radiant arch]

that sounds simple enough.
could also lower source output slowly, like -1.11% per cycle, down by 25% or even 50% by end game to be extra cruel.

just what would be a good balance? have additional 50% to cycle length with cycle 30? does it cap around 100% extra? how much to go with?
how long does a normal game even last? my slower ones go to 70s, rarely 100 cycles on normal difficulty.
with peak water need around 20-40 cycles i guess and abyss reactor from 40 to 60 usually, if map not forces to do much else earlier or is super restrictive.

might want plenty feedback on these numbers by different people with different play styles i think

nothing out of the box for it, but simple enough to code

[rapid trench]

there's the "progressive difficulty" mod (that's its actual name), which does pretty much that, setting bad weather length as a simple multiple of cycle number (I think 1.3x to 1.7x by default), so the simplest thing would be to add it as a dependency of whitepaws, right? though maybe some of its default settings would need to be adjusted

[radiant arch]

the one by mimicz?
https://mod.io/g/timberborn/m/flood-population

does it work with u7?

[rapid trench]

no, I meant this one, can't find it on mod.io though: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3431679446

I've played it in U7

[radiant arch]

oh i see

yeah, mimicz mod adds water source strength either per population or cycle (cruel^^)

[rapid trench]

but as far as I see it only increases water strength, so not difficult to deal with late game if one is willing to pressurise sources

[radiant arch]

that 'progressive difficulty' mod is really cool, but it does add lots of deeper features and cruel and it's configurable during play

[wicked pecan]

My typical playthrus are ~1000 days. With other factions

[radiant arch]

something less complex, that just adds some percentage of length to cycle would seem more fitting to me.
not so much mess with how cruel droughts are or the whole clouds and evaporation system that mod brings with it. it also invalidates the difficulty settings of the game, which should not be default imho.
maybe make the increase in length depend on population on top. if that grows quickly, seasons lengthen even more? like 10% for every 100 beaver or so?

[rapid trench]

fair, though the extra features (evaporation system and floods) can be turned off in the mod settings

I guess tying it to population would be in the right spirit for whitepaws, but 1. when should the population be measured? start of cycle? and 2. do we get any in-game lore explanation how number of beavers affects the weather?

[radiant arch]

good point... if it only affects cycle length, start of that would be easiest. could go with max too, measured every morning or with every new beaver should be possible.

for (2) with lapans words: "How does it works ? " Oh ? Oh, now ? After all these years ? After all these games ? Now you ask ME how those work ?

[rapid trench]

the max option gives rise to an interesting challenge of "make an unending cycle" where you aim to increase population to add more than one day of cycle length each day ;p

[radiant arch]

impossible^^

[rapid trench]

infinitely, for sure, but depending on the numbers it could be another way to get the 1000 day drought challenge

[radiant arch]

imagine how much water beavers eat and drink and how little the map is

so something most simple might be:

• add 1 day min/max every other cycle
• add 1 day per every 100 beaver?

would give +20 days for cycle 30 and 500 beavers
or making it % more around 30 days on normal and 60 on hard? or so?

would linear increase be too little?

also should it increase both, the temperate and the hazardous duration? or just the latter?

[rapid trench]

I like the % increase idea so it doesn't overshadow difficulty settings, still not sure about making it beaver-dependent (though it would make population collapse events less painful); in my experience with the progressive difficulty mod the linear increase there is a bit too little, in that it starts out brutal and by end-game the 1-2 extra days each cycle is not felt too much, the main reason being that (up to proportionality) in cycle N you have N days to prepare for +1 day, i.e. the larger the N is, the more time you have to expand your infrastructure for the same extra drought time; I think maybe making it a polynomial increase (something like N^1.5, I think quadratic might be too brutal) might be better

[radiant arch]

if i used a 1.2% increase with each cycle, the duration would double every 60 cycles
with 1.8% would double every 40.
those would feel like a proper range for me for normal or easy difficulty. might be better to go with more for easy and less for hard maybe.. dunno..

for normal difficulty that would make drought equal temperate from cycle 40/ 60 onward, if temperate stays same length throughout.

if i add another 1.2% per beaver (to base duration, not factored) that would give around 50% extra per 300.
so if you had 300 beavers at cycle 30 with 1.2% you get to double duration of drought / bad tide already.
with 600 beavers and cycle 60 that would give 3x base duration i think (1x bonus from either population and cycle count).

would certainly want a hover info on it with the UI to make people aware of it?

can certainly see more need for aquifer and abyss water this way.. and for dams and big water storage

[stiff lily]

Possibly unpopular opinion: it would be nice(r) if that that could be config driven rather than hardcoded. Having the ability to decide “I just want a ‘normal’ playthrough” as opposed to “Make me suffer more and more pls”. Maybe the weather change is more of a WB Hard Mode change rather than the traditional Hard Mode fixtures?

Just pondering that opposed to vanilla where with Normal you’re pretty much safe forever (unless you’re learning) and then with Hard you’re safe after the first few cycles that can be brutal. With WB, you can die on Normal at any point without much effort until you’re more mid-late game, and Hard Mode (I imagine, not personally tried) would just be mega brutal for a long long time.

So if you removed the brutality of Hard Mode being the longer seasons at the beginning, but made it increase in difficulty over time as you progressed, that also seems to fit with the WB mantra but won’t make everyone else sweat along with it.

More “reimagining” what Hard Mode in WB looks like

[radiant arch]

might be those changes could kill off most existing games too, if the changes would be suddenly applied 🤔
like suddenly facing double and triple hazards with a random update

[stiff lily]

May end up with some very unhappy people

Is there any way to enforce changes like this only at the creation of a game? Could they get “locked” or something? The choices that you make in the menus make them seem persistent and unchangeable, but we all know that’s not true.

[radiant arch]

could do that, yes. use some field in the savegame that only can be added from new game

or something

[stiff lily]

You’d still be able to edit the save file I guess unless you put some silly hashing involved, but then it’s just layers to stop people trying. Not actually stopping it

[radiant arch]

saves are just json files really. nothing fancy

[stiff lily]

Yeah but that also means you could get creative with how your persistent config is stored, loaded and validated

[radiant arch]

so, a rough idea for such addition might be like this?

* only apply to new games
* make relate to difficulty chosen
  + may reflect in their settings upon game creation
* have some UI hover / notice to reflect current modifier for season
* apply per-cycle-increase of ~1.2% (doubling each 60 cycles)
  + may apply per-beaver-increase, adding about 50% base duration per 300 or so
  + double increase for hard, but same base as 'normal' by default?
  + half increase for easy, but same base as 'normal' by default?
(should make this configurable by json for lapan?)

[stiff lily]

Does anyone play on Easy? Serious question

[radiant arch]

who knows^^

now with some rough suggestion i'm curious if this was still along what you thought of @shell fiber ?
also what level of increase / cruelty you would want to see? roughly doubling durations every 30 cycles?
cycles only? population?
want to change water source strength modifiers too? like weakening them slowly down to 75% or 50% slowly? (like the world drying out)

technically can make it depend on certain types of building completed too.. if i want to suffer coding some more..
(still kinda got your idea to unlocking things by that way in the back of my ideas list)

how about making this a distinct mod? (it's kinda decently complex and fun? might add more ideas over time?)
and allow for a json config for your faction?

tbh not a fan of mod settings for such things.. at best allow people to adjust some range with difficulty upon new game only and have to stick to them after

[radiant arch]

odd idea (and not sure it's fun to code this or easy), but:
might it be interesting to give some weight to the amount of science points spend on unlocking things?
like 1% per 1000 points spend, so 50% extra duration for unlocking the wonder. or something non-linear. but not sure this is fun to play actually or how to balance.
(no idea if this is possible like this, just exploring ideas of what player decisions / progress markers might be most interesting to use or adapt best to different play styles)

[rapid trench]

I think it should avoid the formula being overcomplicated, there should be a way for players to have a feel for how long to expect the next drought to be so there can be proper planning

not sure about making it a separate mod, at least not with the doubling (exponential growth), because without abyssal water source even 5 doublings of hard mode 30 days would lead to 1000 day droughts, which is brutal

on the other hand I it could be a true "race against time" then for the other factions, I guess

What's the advantage of adding science dependence? personally I don't see any, everyone will be getting science points anyway, it's not like population where it can be optimised / depends on style

for water source strength, I'm again not sure of the advantage, besides maybe making waterwheel energy weaker, I would think that most of the time there's going to be enough to fill your reservoirs even with 50% strength

[rapid trench]

can you walk me through these numbers? I don't see how 1.2% * 300 -> 50%, same for the 600 beavers and 60 cycles case

[radiant arch]

with science points (those spend to unlock only) my idea was that there is a fixed amount per faction that can be spend, relating to certain milestones (unlocking ens, abyss, wonder..) and reflect play style and choices somehow more closely than just looking at number of days.
my initial thought was more like: could i make building X have an impact, like a virtual earthquake and there's less water / longer drought after

[rapid trench]

ok, I can sort of see it, though for me weather in this game plays a different role, it's the "unstoppable enemy" that I need to do everything to survive

[radiant arch]

1.012^60 gives a factor of 2.04 something

[rapid trench]

if it depends on science (or buildings, etc.), then I fear my feeling would be that it's less "unstoppable" since it's waiting for me to progress before it gets worse

[rapid trench]

but where's the 600 beavers factoring in?

[radiant arch]

oh, i see.. gave them 1.2% per 10 beaver actually, so 1.012^(600/10) ~~ 2 too

[rapid trench]

oh, ok, 0.12% per beaver makes sense

but then why would it give 3x together, and not 2x2 = 4x overall?

[radiant arch]

that was the idea: make it more about choices / give more option to player

[rapid trench]

yeah, I get it, I just feel it's a bit boring and against the game feel for me, since no one will decide against progressing in science on purpose, so the main effect will be that when collapse happens you have a much easier time since you stopped unlocking new things

[radiant arch]

felt it was too much to commulate them, so only adding the increase

example was with 1.5 each, so 3 total yeah.. was +100% for population and +100% for cycles..

[rapid trench]

that's not how it works, otherwise at cycle 0 and 0 population you'll already have 2x since it's 1 each 😉

[radiant arch]

or maybe i messed up the numbers 😇

[rapid trench]

personally I don't think multiplying both is too bad, since the player controls the population and can always go down if needed (I like that aspect of player choice)

just that making it exponential in cycle count does make very long games without abyssal impossible

but that might not be a problem on second thoughts

[radiant arch]

just for balancing: how much should it go up?
there's players that do with 300-400 easily, and others want 1k or more

wouldn't the ones with more already struggle more already?

[rapid trench]

problem is, I think population numbers with whitepaws tend to be completely different than with other factions in my experience, so it'll be difficult to balance for both

[radiant arch]

no problem on that: each faction would have different presets anyway (or whitepaws versus vanilla basically)

[rapid trench]

for whitepaws I'd say doubling every 300 would be appropriate for hard mode, maybe half that for normal

for other factions I'd set it lower, doubling every 100 for hard, and for emberpelts even lower, like 75 (pushes them more into engines and juices)

[radiant arch]

leafcoats too

they can do with less beavers easily

[rapid trench]

but with artificial wood they need more farming space, which makes them more water-sensitive

[radiant arch]

tbh. i almost never need 100 for any of them to start building wonder around 15th cycle..

[radiant arch]

on the other hand they can build dirt blocks real quick and not need levees really

[rapid trench]

oh, I do, but probably cause of my house rules

[radiant arch]

more wanted to state i might not know really about balancing well going mínimal too often.. 😅

[rapid trench]

besides, I'm keeping in mind that the population multiplier is just the extra one, only when it gets multiplied with the cycle one we'll have the full effect

[radiant arch]

that's the idea, yep

if you grow population too fast it gets the major factor

if you play long it gets the minor

for a normal paced game it might be both grow around same speed giving the full effect

just my interpretation though, wanting to have more players choices in than what lapan suggested initially

[rapid trench]

I'm thinking about vanilla hard mode, and if you want the exponential growth to feel like a continuation of that, then it needs to be larger; the vanilla droughts increase on average by 7% every cycle for the first 24 cycles iirc

[radiant arch]

takes this long to reach the full 30?

[rapid trench]

iirc it's 15 drughts and 9 badtides, but I should check in game, give me a sec

[radiant arch]

new game said for me 15-30 on hard mode. same each bad tide and drought?

[rapid trench]

my bad, it's only 6 cycles handicap for badtides, so 21 overall and 8% average growth

[radiant arch]

not sure it should change to use same default for all modes tbh. like the 5-9 (drought) from normal for example and growth factors double for hard, half for easy

[rapid trench]

that's just the final lenght, not how long it takes to reach it (21 cycles) and how much of an increase it is from the initial length (5x)

[radiant arch]

true .. 21 cycles is a full game basically..

[rapid trench]

oh, it's weird, average increase on normal is higher, 10%, but only for 10 cycles, so I guess that's the more significant factor there

[radiant arch]

if it doubles every 10 cycles that would give: 10-18 (cycle 10), 20-36 (cycle 20) and 40-72 (cycle 30) ?

[rapid trench]

yep, and personally that doesn't sound too bad, it just gets really bad if you continue that to cycle 60

[radiant arch]

true..

[rapid trench]

which is why I was not convinced that exponential is the way to go

[radiant arch]

and adding a single doubling from population not means a lot either..

[rapid trench]

it does, one less doubling from population at cycle 30 gives you over 500 days of a headstart compared to having that doubling

(since it's equivalent to 10 cycles, and each of them is very long at that point)

[radiant arch]

for whitepaws, yes

[rapid trench]

why would it be different for other factions?

[radiant arch]

i mean, i can make the curve more complex too.. just not having the right ideas yet i fell..
not want it too fixed on the number of days only (but mostly) to allow for playstyle being part of it..

[radiant arch]

30 cycles at that length is forever.. what to do by that point? put decorations?

[rapid trench]

that's where we differ, I guess, for me it should be mostly number of days since weather for me is the ticking clock that motivates doing everything else in game, the population dependence for me would be only a bit of a flavour

[rapid trench]

prepare huge water engineering and storage projects for the soon-to-be 1000-day droughts 😉 (cycle 50 + two doublings from population, for example)

[radiant arch]

with doubling every 10 cycles that's still .. 50 cycles on hard mode..

and not sure whitepaws can handle it growing this fast or other faction are fun to play for that long.. (would want 99x speed..)

[rapid trench]

yeah, I take your point, but I don't really see the alternative without killing early game; make the drought-time growth super-exponential?

[radiant arch]

yeah, something that works early game, mid-game and is just plain doubling-every-whatever later to make endless games impossible

and still has the player choose difficulty to some degree (not all want it any harder)

[rapid trench]

there's always the option to make it depend on day count, not cycle count, I guess

[radiant arch]

default with 'delay' and 'progressive length' likely is good already on it, just the cycles after not

[rapid trench]

each cycle is 10% longer is basically the same as saying "cycle length is 10% of day count", so could go superlinear there, say "drought length is 1% * (day count)^1.3)", though early cycles would have to be different since the numbers won't work out correctly at first; with my estimate of ~500 days for the 21 cycles of vanilla hard mode, the 1.3 gives you 30 day droughts at approximately the same time

(I like playing with functions, so if you have a vision how you'd like the cycle lengths to work out at particular times, I'd be happy to find some reasonable math to make it so)

[radiant arch]

that's the point: how would a good curve look.. should it be same for everyone? (i.e. depend on playstyle, like population, milestones in game progress, other factors.. how random)
sure it should work on normal best, and can adapt other difficulties after

going with actual day count versus cycles adds more random factor to it. especially when you add mods like moddable weather (hazards can be 2-15 days by default for normal i think; temperate can go down to 2 days later)

[rapid trench]

one note for making it day count dependent, maybe it's what you actually meant by your random factor: randoming into longer cycles is more punishing in that case, and randoming into short ones gives much more of a break, so I think it might be useful to think in terms of day count (simpler formulas), but then math the formula back onto cycle count to avoid that effect

[radiant arch]

trying to sort your feedback so far:

the progressive part of cycles being shorter early was meant to stay same as with vanilla difficulty.

only an additional factor based off cycles / days added on top. possibly also some population factor.
so it is harder, but not much different for early cycles (being shorter, factor still low), and still relating well to chosen difficulty.

growth rate is no longer linear. (much) stronger than default still, so difficulty does go way up, just differently and no longer capped.

exponential curve might work well enough like that. might work with different curves too -> i need to plot this.. to see...
it must be superlinear to matter.

question still remains on the actual balance.
also concerns for different playstyles and if to incorporate player choices or how much.
lowering strength of water sources not seems popular.

[rapid trench]

mostly sounds good, but the curve problem is crucial if we want to have a significantly different experience late game, and based on the numbers we discussed, exponential in cycle number might be too slow (at least if it's the same exponential throughout the whole game)

[radiant arch]

just plotted the curve for 1.2% and 1.8% exponential on what's added to average drought duration against cycle count (normal difficulty)..

certainly need the 1.8% here i guess or it's too little
or other factors, like population adding early

1.8% takes 75 cycles to reach hard difficulty..

takes 2.4% to reach hard difficulty around cycle 50, which would seem more fun, still 'only' average ~70 days of drought with cycle 100 at that.

[rapid trench]

I think I would approach the problem the other way around, how long do we want cycle 20 drought to be? how much longer should the next one be to still be a challenge? and then ask the same two questions about cycles 30, 40, and (possibly) 50; from that we can math out an appropriate formula

[rapid trench]

What's the exact formula you're plotting there? because I'm failing to recreate those

[radiant arch]

1.012^cycle x avg(HazardDuration) essentially

minus the average hazard duration for the plot, so i only see the increase

[rapid trench]

that's what I thought, but what's the average on normal? maybe I gave the wrong number there

[radiant arch]

starts out at 4 and goes to 7 by 6th cycle

badtides actually are half a cycle shorter on average, but ignoring that minor difference

[rapid trench]

oh, makes sense, I got confused by the "multiply by average duration, but then only show the extra" part

[radiant arch]

found visuallising the difference only showed the impact best

going with something like DAYS^1.02 * AVG(HazDur) gives hard mode around cycle 12.. double hard mode in mid-20s..

i fear that one might go much too fast haha

still want lapans ideas most

but my feel says something that's low on first 20s, and partly choice-based during 30s to 40s/50s and after is basically slow exponential like what i had before

having 100 day drougths by the mid-40s sounds little fun somehow.
want to get a decent chance on solar panels and engines when any impact is felt too, so first 20s are likely difficult enough as is

[rapid trench]

my thoughts are similar, except I would shift the boundaries down by 5 and make it a fast exponential late game, but that's just my "if it doesn't kill you 3/4 of the time it's boring"

[radiant arch]

i think that's more of a players choice there, the part that should be configurable from game start options (like yours would be closer to hard, mine more around normal)

[rapid trench]

now I'm thinking of a nice emergent challenge here, where with whitepaws and a fast exponential at some point it's basically just hazards all the time, so you need to re-engineer your water flow to fill everything from abyssal, would be fun, I think

[radiant arch]

would be cool to have the player going fast adds some extra 5 to 10 days to drought in the 30s or 40s to force reservoirs and going aquifer / abyss,
while others going slow gives a few cycles extra. hence the population factor idea or something like unlocking key buildings to have enviromental impacts
also to compensate for people having trouble setting up the supply chains to have more time, even on normal difficulty

if i just wanted to kill nature i could add cycles to the base, like in [1.01 + LN( #CYCLES / 2 ) ] ^ (#CYCLES) or something.
gives 100day-droughts from cycle 60 onward. soon getting to bad water sources being unavailable 60% of the time.

or other way round: from some point player is forced to rely on aquifer for bad water and go for abyss as there's virtually too little water for much else left

just no idea from when really, as progress is very different between players
what if 50% of players suddenly can't reach the milestones in time? tell them to try 'easy'? (drought is only 1 day less for that really)
really would like it best if playstyle allowed to push it back some if time was needed

[rapid trench]

maybe you could shift when the formula takes effect, shifting which cycle is counted as the 0 for the purposes of the formula, which could e.g. delay everything by 10-15 cycles on easy and speed it up by 5 on hard?

[stiff flint]

i think droughts are harder than bad tides.... it's easy enough to set up safe irrigation during a bad tide, but you can still generate water power

in a draught you're not just working with stored water you're also on battery/solar power until late game

I think i'm going to aim for one of the lower water maps and set up farming based on aquifer pumps as the primary water source.... i'm a little concerned about evaporation increasing the pollution percentage over time if i don't extract drinking water correctly

[radiant arch]

just trying to figure that point out too... can't really extract much water easily, without dealing with bad water at same time
on the other hand - long drought = no natural bad water = no science ...

would need a setup with a channel / river for irrigation

and a reservoir

and after only the pumps coupled with a bad water pump, so pumps up the contamination, bad water is extracted at decent speed

but efficiency will be bad on it in general and it's kinda complex to set up i would think

[rapid trench]

once you have enough power you can use water cannons to separate the clean from the badwater, right?

[stiff flint]

I think letting the water run through farm irrigation to collect in a reservoir at the downstream end to pump both waters would be easiest to manage... but then i feel like there's a "right way" to filter the water for efficency

[rapid trench]

do you know the pumping rate for the aquifer pumps?

[radiant arch]

also: solar power + aquifer both need panels.. which only can be traded till .. around 40s or so cycle.. (ENS, Foundry, ..)
which means 15 gold per aquifer ~ 1500 dirt ~ 150 satchels (or 60-90 days with one balloon..)
and twice that for each solar array..

[stiff flint]

you can canon clean water out to concentrate the bad for it's own pumps.... that might be the play

[radiant arch]

aquifer give .25 source strenght, so roughly 400 units of water and 40 of badwater per day

[rapid trench]

that's also the water cannon rate iirc, so 1-to-1 ratio of them should work

[radiant arch]

a solar array can give somewhere from 400 to 800 per hour, for up to 16 hours per day

so by that point it should be able to power 2 cannons..

[stiff flint]

with batteries the pumps also work at night.... needs more power but you move water for more hours per day

[radiant arch]

yeah, you only need +50% walking speed to power two cannons with a single solar array

[stiff flint]

the irrigation canals i've got in mind could also fit waterwheels.... i dont' think power is going to be the problem

[radiant arch]

or other way round: you should be able to power 1 cannon and primitive sawmill and paper mill with it..

[radiant arch]

not thought about that

not giving much at 25%, but better than none

should work out with a factory or some

[stiff flint]

it's 100% stable water power..... but once again it's going to come down to optimizing the canals to both irrigate and power

[radiant arch]

just will take time to set that up on a decent scale, so much it's likely an option to scale trading and go for more solar arrays

if bad water can be separated easy enough with a cannon that helps a lot too. people just need to figure that out 😅

would it be alright to assume aquifers being available from cycle 20 onward is safe?
they need architect, mechanist, alchemist, decent powerful farming, ropes, seamstress, methane and balloon trading as well as factory..

would feel like roughly doubling drought at that stage might work out well for making them 'needed'?
and going up to double again with cycle 40 might force toward abyss for water.. though that might take to 60s to finish..

not sure about nuclear power still, simple being ~4-5 solar arrays only and more expensive.

biggest concern here would be badwater really, as science and glowing fluid depend on it (=super slow progress and abyss)

btw: sky bad water source doesn't allow nuclear reactor @shell fiber (latest steam version of map reader mod. mod.io seems to have a fix, but steam might not)

one way to boost nuclear here would be to make the bad water reactor work as a constant bad water source (or collect it as resource). would that work?

[rapid trench]

I think nuclear reactor shutting down badwater and giving significant power and extracting badwater is too powerful; maybe an extra building "on top" of it to extract badwater? like abyssal is on top of the elevator

[radiant arch]

Average Drought Duration by Cycle
for [ 1.03 + LN( #CYCLE / 12 ) / 100 ] ^ #CYCLE

    cycle  factor  normal  hard
    10     x1.3       9      27
    20     x1.9      13      43  aquifer or three
    30     x3.1      22      70  big dams / reservoir / secured energy needs, looking for bad water..
    40     x5.1      36     115  can build wonder.. 
    50     x8.8      62     198  abyss nuclear & water
    60     x14.9    104     335  forgot what 'temperate' means

feels a little rough still, assuming basically full aquifer setup by 30s or 40s would make anything after meaningless.
at least regarding water and power needs.
would make buildings dams and all more viable.

thoughts on progress/ balance:

going faster with the numbers would make it less needed to engineer natural water sources, which should be big focus till around cycle 15 or 20 still
also might make it too difficult

around that it should make aquifer the new goal and alternate power (engine, solar)
so double and growing drought might fit nicely?

after can go for late game (30s, 40s now?) and might go with nuclear water source.. but why bother??
population cap is prior. solar is cheaper than small nuclear. it's taking ages to research and build too.
setup should make caring about seasons pointless by this point anyway?

only worry would be having more bad water and maybe having a hard time to set up aquifers or to separate it efficiently
(might be hard depending on map too; and depend on luck to even roll bad tides..)
pro: it might make big bad water pumps more useful to some

anything beyond cycle 50 would appear meaningless (would be around cycle 72 with vanilla).

also.. like.. isn't.. the only purpose of this to make people ignore natural water sources by mid-game?
was that it?

[rapid trench]

that seems what it boils down to now, yes; I didn't even realise; at least it's a gradual slope and no "no more water from now on" thing?

whitepaws don't really have the option of making water engineering projects the scale of other factions though, so I think that is the necessary endpoint for them

[radiant arch]

made me realise this might really not make sense as a separate mod.. as other factions lack any means to generate water.. it would be certain death at some point. not provide anything much before..

[rapid trench]

it would be an interesting challenge anyway, with other factions I always end up having some ideas for huge water-engineering projects that I never realise in the end because their scale is way larger than a measly 30 day drought (or even 60+ day ones you get with moddable weather stacking) requires, so it'd be just a project for its own sake, which is much less compelling

it would be a different end-goal with other factions though, more "see how many cycles you manage to survive" rather than "survive forever and build a wonder"

[radiant arch]

you wouldn't want to wait 100+ classic cycles for that though? (want a much harder curve?)

or the mod should allow to access the 30x speed option?

[rapid trench]

30x option is already there with timprove 😉 and I wouldn't mind an "ultrahard" difficulty ;P

[heavy spruce]

@shell fiber would it be difficult to update the hitbox on the sequoia, grapes, & bramble planting building so that the area above the tanks at the height of the platform is buildable?

[heavy spruce]

Hard tar is easy to handle as it's crystalline and not sticky. You just take some crystals and heat them up right before use.

Whereas trying to keep tar liquid means you have to constantly keep it warm, depending on the tar's melting point. Or it's going to harden in the transport vessel and needs heating to pour it out at any reasonable speed.

So do the beavers have thermos vessels to transport hot tar? Might need oven mits too...

I always imagined that the beavers had a fire at the build site and a metal bucket to melt tar crystals in till they could be applied.

[heavy spruce]

I couldn't do it when I was building my 4.2K beaver colony… so a while?

[shell fiber]

Hi guys I'm "back", sort of.

[shell fiber]

I see... I'll think about it. I think a normal game can be 50-70 cycles but depends on people I guess

[shell fiber]

Problem is that those mods are generally configurable and have their own default value, but generally I want to set things a certain way and it's difficult to do with a third party mod

[shell fiber]

Hmm... I'm not so fond of tying it to population 🤔

[shell fiber]

It might be unnecessary considerations on my part but the issue I have with increasing droughts length is that it implies the world is basically dying and things are only getting worse, it makes the struggle for survival seem futile 🤔

[shell fiber]

Having variable settings means it requires an UI etc, that makes the script 10x more complicated.
But I don't necessarily want the game to become more punishing, I want to create circumstances where you end up thinking "I really will need that nuclear reactor soon"

[radiant arch]

what would be your idea to reach that?

[shell fiber]

Isn't it possible to, rather than have a difficulty factor applied based on the current cycle, have a factor saved that increments ever cycle ? This way existing save will just start with a difficulty multiplier of 1 and things slowly get harder from there

?

[radiant arch]

it's more about balancing as a slowly getting worse late has almost no effect, while starting a game with it might be hard

[shell fiber]

Right now I like the idea of reducing water source strength and playing on season duration, but the multiplier based on pop not so much, it de-incentivize building dams 🤔

[shell fiber]

I had some ideas like that but it was difficult to implement

[shell fiber]

Difficult increase based on science spend if actually a pretty good idea 🤔
That works and doesn't slap slow players in the face

[stiff lily]

Not necessarily config as numbers, but even a tick box or just making it part of the hard mode version

[stiff lily]

This shouldn’t be too bad to implement, but I could foresee people gaming the system. Eg. Deleting certain buildings just before the calculation point and then rebuilding them after

You can’t undo science spent so more consistent across everyone

[shell fiber]

The player doesn't have to know it 🤫

[radiant arch]

no worry: can make a mod for apocalypse mode (will always kill all natural resources at some point) and what lapan wants for his faction 🙂

[radiant arch]

if tracking 'first-build' and not 'present' that's no issue either 🙂

[stiff lily]

True. Oh I read it as numbers of buildings rather than specific ones being built. Like if you had 2 sawmills you’d get penalised more than having just one

[radiant arch]

nah. that would be mean. who would want to make you suffer? 😉

[radiant arch]

did i understand you right on wanting some forceful change to seasons or water sources at certain milestones?
like getting ENS is -20% water strength or spending first 5k science points would or Library adds +3 days to hazards duration / shorten temperate season? (just random numbers here)
just not deadly mean, just forceful mean to make aquifer and abyss more interesting?

if going with it.. might actually want a warning on source strength reduction..? a notice with the top-bar or in the game log? (could try a popup like with seasonal changes too, if only key buildings caused the change)

[sullen cape]

Would this be useful for waterbeavers?

Sorry I haven't been here for a while 😇

[shell fiber]

I don't know if I can make a building be both a power generator and a manufactory, but I intend to try sooner or later

[shell fiber]

Actually I probably can make it like the dome that can be opened if desired 🤔

[shell fiber]

I don't think so

[shell fiber]

I think I saw that recently and changed it, I'll double check 👍

Okay I finished catching up with all the comments 😅

I'd need a pen and paper to crunch this out 🤔
What I'm pretty sure of is that I don't want to make it look like the world is slowly becoming unlivable.

How to is not completely shaped in my mind, but basically I'd go for longer seasons (including temperate) as the game progress, but also to investigate some measure of concern by weakening water sources 🤔
But just so that it doesn't seem like the planned is becoming inhabitable, there should be also good seasons, like very short droughts, dilute badtides maybe, very long wet seasons maybe 🤔

For example we could imagine a wet season where sources are reduced to 1/3rd outputs, but the season is twice longer

Or on the contrary a shorter wet season where the sources are stronger, and even bad water sources flow clean

This way you'd need to engineer something to refill your dam quickly before the water cuts again

Hmm...🤔

I'm reinventing the seasons mod all over again amn't I?

[radiant arch]

so basically you only want the total water available per season to stay roughly the same (+/-20%)

not change really over time

just more dynamics with the seasons?

i not see it yet^^

[shell fiber]

Kind of, but not exactly, since longer wet seasons means your beavers will still drink a larger share of the total water output

I think it would be cool to have situations where it's a wet seasons but all of the water gets pumped out 😅

I should check the seasons mod...

[radiant arch]

ebb&flow + moddable weather do something similar

roughly

but if i understand you right, you want more random with it. and bad water sources be part of it more..

[rapid trench]

but that does not have your desired effect of "I really will need that reactor" though, since it stops when one stops spending science

[rapid trench]

I don't know the seasons mod, but it does sound similar to moddable weather

[rapid trench]

the problem with high randomness is that one can random into unpredictably difficult scenario, the single-weather seasons from moddable weather can easily produce 90+ day hazardous periods (3+ single-weather hazardous ones one after another) without giving any heads up

[radiant arch]

pretty aware of that

same with messing with contamination levels and source strength tbh

with drying map out being the kinder option in many cases

[rapid trench]

that I don't see, as long as contamination <50% and source strength >0 it should be survivable, no?

[radiant arch]

well, it would be

just, you might not get any decent glowing fluid or science

with some unlucky timing and long hazard that can basically pause your game for a while

on the other side: giving 5% to clean water sources

that can easily contaminate big parts of the population 🙂

or adding +30% to sources on some maps floods the whole thing

[rapid trench]

for the "I will really need this nuclear/abyssal reactor", maybe adding something like "cloud cover" that makes solar panels stop working / less effective? that way nuclear/abyssal and methane remain only energy generation options for droughts

[rapid trench]

do you have particular maps in mind? because personally I found the monsoon from moddable weather with up yo +250% underwhelming every time it happened (on the other hand floods from progressive difficulty, where source strength of all sources goes up to cycle number, are brutal, can recommend)

[radiant arch]

oh, right.. there's no monsoon by default and the source strength cap if low..
only played with free flow, ebb&flow and monsoons recently, where diorama could easily flood for example, if the source got some boost.
but i guess vanilla settings not would allow that much..

[radiant arch]

that would be so hard to balance.. without tracking actual water consumption and supply..
also maps can be very different on how much water they supply, or how much of it is available depending on stage of game.

best i could do with simple means is either down the source strength by how long game runs, or how long current season is, or the number of beavers at the moment.

i can cap it, like never go less than 70% of source strength. or never add more than 10% contamination (surprisingly efficient passive limit) or such. which would give a a stronger, progressive version of ebb&flow really.

i can tie it to length of temperate too, like double length is 80% strength (so can store less) or halved temperate gives 130% (may store more).
and make those slightly more extreme the further the progress is, be it duration or science or population or whatever is easy to track.
but never too extreme, to avoid death-game levels.

same with season length - adding some more randomness, with max getting higher the longer the game and random short ones at times.
that seems easy enough.

what i would kinda like to keep is how the seasons work. to keep difficulty settings working. and possibly allow other mods to work still, that add new seasons.
(also it's less complex that way)

might also be able to hack the moddable weather mod to disable the settings or inject specific numbers for whitepaws 🤔

i believe that one would allow to define new seasons too, as they are simply specs

[shell fiber]

Hmm... In my head that would only be for a short while, maybe 5-6 days, probably not enough to flood a whole map 🤔

[shell fiber]

I wouldn't want to go full tsunami, that would require people to rethink their whole city

[shell fiber]

Oh really ? That's interesting