Water Beaver Overhaul

[radiant arch]

badwater as in 5% limit?

[shell fiber]

yep

that part unfortunately is hard-coded

ah also if you have time, do you think you could rebuild the the water converstion rate script but set at 8 / voxel ? i think that would be a better value

[radiant arch]

will do tomorrow, if that's fine

[shell fiber]

yeah no prob !

i spend pretty much the whole day making the dam's 3D model, so i'm about to go to sleep

GN !

[radiant arch]

gn!

[radiant arch]

with 8 units per voxel

[shell fiber]

Thank you !

oooh, the antfarm map in RCE's new timberborners season seems quite interesting !
i wonder if there's some taller ones with the mod that allows that 🤔

[radiant arch]

https://mod.io/g/timberborn/m/beaver-ant-farm#description ?
as in 64x12 sized?

hmm.. no.. slightly different.. but that's too small for whitepaws 🙁

might be cool to have something extreme like that

[shell fiber]

hmm... i'm mostly happy about the design, but sleeping on it... it really need to offer a 2-wide flat roof and be stackable otherwise its value is really limted to my opinioin

but i'll rework the model this week, today i want to playtest a bit more

[shell fiber]

i don't think that's this one, but that's the idea 🙂

[shell fiber]

I tried to add your file instead of mine, but the game crashed complaining about text color, can you look into it ?```v0.7.10.8-1ec3a71-sw
NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object
Timberborn.Localization.TextColors.ColorizeText (System.String text) (at <d69dd7ec612549aba34287f3defcab0e>:0)
Timberborn.Localization.LocalizationLoader.GetLocalization (System.String localizationKey, System.Boolean isExperimental) (at <d69dd7ec612549aba34287f3defcab0e>:0)
Timberborn.Localization.LocalizationService.Load (System.String localizationCode) (at <d69dd7ec612549aba34287f3defcab0e>:0)
Timberborn.Language.LanguageLoader.Load () (at <80934173d91f4ddbb145ea06f2bba4b3>:0)
Mods.MoreModLogs.SingletonSystemPatch.ErrorReporter (System.Action fn) (at C:/Users/Norman/Documents/src/Timberborn-MoreModLogs/SingletonSystemPatch.cs:53)
(wrapper dynamic-method) MonoMod.Utils.DynamicMethodDefinition.Timberborn.SingletonSystem.SingletonLifecycleService.LoadSingletons_Patch2(Timberborn.SingletonSystem.SingletonLifecycleService)
(wrapper dynamic-method) MonoMod.Utils.DynamicMethodDefinition.Timberborn.SingletonSystem.SingletonLifecycleService.LoadAll_Patch1(Timberborn.SingletonSystem.SingletonLifecycleService)
Timberborn.SingletonSystem.SingletonLifecycleUnityAdapter.Start () (at <37714495c7b34fbf87491c89893567c4>:0)

i couldn't find which line is broken, there is just too many for a manual search

[stiff lily]

That’s odd as I tested it in-game before I sent it. I’ll have a look though, probably tomorrow at this rate if that’s ok?

Now I’m going to be fascinated at what broke until I can actually get to my computer 😂

[shell fiber]

no worries 👍 thanks for your help

oh ?

is it my latest addition that is broken ?

[stiff lily]

I also didn’t change any colouring so it must be open tags or something?

I did add on one (or two) of the lodges “employs one hauler” that was coloured, but I didn’t change any colouring outside of that. That did work though when I tested it

I shall investigate tomorrow 😊

[stiff lily]

Oh what did you add? Maybe send me that file that you’re trying to load and I’ll have a look?

[shell fiber]

no i think i accidentally launched the game while the text editor was open, so the ~lock file got sucked into the game

maybe

testing now

hopefully there's no actual issue

okay, seems all good 🙂

sorry for startling you 😅

[shell fiber]

for now i'm nerfing the speed of the library, the reciepe takes about 3x longer and the max worker amount is 4, so you probably would need to run it full most of the time to get a similar output as before in the early game, while late game... well safe for building 4 of them you'll need to run the ENS science i think

but i'll review that reciepe too.

[radiant arch]

given how inefficient libraries are cost-wise running 4 instead of 1 ENS might be an achievement by itself 🙂

[shell fiber]

Since with U7 splitting in districts is not that vital anymore, i'm restoring the Library's attraction function 🙂

also because the library has 20 sitting spots and having only 4 being used is kind of a shame.

[shell fiber]

• bot assembler 750 -> 2500
• big badwater pump 150 -> 700 science, now entirely mechanical
• Mech water pump -> Grand Dam 800
• advanced sawmill 500 -> 2000
• centrifuge 500 -> 1000
• wine cellar 200 -> 1000
• drills 250 -> 750 (coal) / 1000 (iron)
• abyss drills 200 -> 800
• abyss gas extractor 0 -> 1000

okay, regarding the ENS Science, i think lotus tea is relatively easy to mass-produce, Red soda is a bit more difficult, grape is just a matter of harvesting enough, which leaves brainsalts, chips and fried rice 🤔

fried rice, at this point you should be able to mass-produce

brain salt is processed bad water, water, chestnuts/rice/grapes

and fried rice is mostly low-worth resources save for sunflower oil

[radiant arch]

with grapes required red soda is trivial: tree nursery provides 3x more brambles for same space

i believe unlocking grapes and waiting for them to harvest enough (and route it to ENS instead of hungry beavers) is the real challenge at this point - and a fairly easy one, given some time

will there be no more big bad pump?

[shell fiber]

the mechanized one ? well i still have the existing thing, but i don't know if we should keep it or not

well there's no harm in that i guess, question is wether that makes other things redundant

[radiant arch]

mid-sized pump is barely interesting tbh, given the low cost of big pump

other than that no real strong opinion from me. either work fine, as long as there's something after buckets

[shell fiber]

which ones are you talking about ?

[radiant arch]

badwater pumps

[shell fiber]

aaah

i had completely forgot about that

right...

[radiant arch]

wondered why you crossed that one out above

[shell fiber]

i misread and thought it was the normal water pump

😅

[radiant arch]

sorry

[shell fiber]

no, thanks, i had forgot about it

changed it 🙂

now entirely mechanical, so there won't be contaminated beavers anymore, which should be the main appeal

also the ridiculous storage ability it has

tbh i mostly use the medium ones, 30 science is nothing, and i feel the benefit of the advanced one is not really worth the effort.

...

🤔

i'd be interested in other people's opinions regarding that matter

[radiant arch]

hmm.. if brambles could move down stairs.. wouldn't that be awesome?

[shell fiber]

oh, that would be amazingly evil, but that doesn't happen base game 🙂

do you have a script for that ? 😅

[heavy lodge]

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3396202044 (check vertical spreading checkbox) 👹

[shell fiber]

3 badtides in a row, quite a pain in the ass...

[shell fiber]

hmm... same issue as with most of his mods, they're great but i would want them non-configurable

especially when it has default values that i don't want

[heavy lodge]

YA, I wish to be a way to include into a map difficulty settings values from some mods.

[stiff flint]

buildings that had an effect on bad tide probability or severity would be a great addition to update 8+

[shell fiber]

i would like there to be buildings that increase the time warning you have before the season changes tbh

[cloud flax]

like water and bad water is there any option to have other liquids too in game... would be interesting to see pools filled with grape juice and have it as the festive plaza

[radiant arch]

beavers looking at the stars to look ahead?

[radiant arch]

sadly that would involve a lot of code, as currently the whole terrain is solely implementing 'wet' and 'contaminated'. not even sure it wouldn't need to touch the map data itself..

[cloud flax]

new pumps gonna house beavers.... not housing the beavers was the biggest appeal of the mechanised water pumps for me.....but again water beavers... everything is a house

[stiff flint]

a lot of things get easier with higher population.... more large population buildings would be welcome

[cloud flax]

i got more beavers than knowing what to do with them.... lot of buildings dont require workers and not enough buildings that can absorb tons of workers in them late game

[wary panther]

Mostly the tower+triangle upgrades

[cloud flax]

i have 169 bot haulers... do i really need more haulers :P

[radiant arch]

you can remove many redundant buildings and increase productivity using well-being this late into the game (can go up to 4x and some at 100+ well-being)

[cloud flax]

middle of the day and them bots being lazy ass sitting in the standby areas :P

[radiant arch]

i wonder if it wasn't the 'goal' to have mostly unemployed masses at the end though

[cloud flax]

yeah thats why i feel that the deep water pump might be much better than the automated water pump

[stiff flint]

holding a bigger population at that point is just adding more farms and cooking.... short work days can stretch some of those jobs ever farther

[cloud flax]

ofc to look at the wonder going off..... :P

[shell fiber]

hey wait a second !
since U7, water movers (typically water cannons) cannot send water higher than the elevation of their designated voxel, right ? so that means the sluice houses would no longer be able to push water up infinitely like they used to ?

wait no, that was never possible did it ?

how the hell did that work ?

[radiant arch]

water pressure?

wasn't an open sluice technically able to push more water than a equally sized channel?

[shell fiber]

yeah, there was something like that

the fact that it can filter badwater out was fine

but the fact that you could effectively fill up a reservoir from the bottom up was bugging me

in part because that allows infinite energy machines

i should look into it again

[radiant arch]

that's a serious issue, yeah

[shell fiber]

but i have to remember what it was i actually disliked about those damn things🤔

there was somethign that consistently irked me, but at the moment i can't remember

[radiant arch]

sluices? the perfect water control and voiding any meaning of badwater?

or the fact it was forced on 0:0 in buildings?

[shell fiber]

no, no, not sluices, the make pretend ones i had come up with in U5 i think

basically a water pump that use power to carry a small amount of water across the dam

i had called them "dam drains" at some point, because the inital intent was to purge a dam from bad water or something

[wary panther]

sluices are one way check valves. So you can, very slightly, make a ram pump out of them. But it's so inefficient it's not really exploitable. So while they let you fill a reservoir "from the bottom up" you can only do so if the feed is from you have a pressurized column higher than the target.

If you're not familiar, ram pumps are a thing in the real world. They work by letting water flow downhill until it gathers speed/momentum. Then you suddenly close the valve, and the water hammer/slosh makes it push up at the now-closed outlet, and overflow into a higher outlet. A one-way valve doesn't let any water that went "up" like this flow back when trough of the slosh wave comes. Then you reopen the lower valve and repeat. In theory you can thus use the energy of the water you're letting fall to raise some of the remaining water. If it was perfectly efficient (it never is, due to drag losses) you'd be keeping the center of gravity of "all the water" unchanged.

They aren't very efficient in practice, but sometimes are useful for irrigation anyway, because you have a whole river that's flowing down anyway and you just want to raise a little bit up to the field

but building one out of sluices in timberborn is mostly for people who like abusing physics simulation 🙂

[radiant arch]

early stage of many small caves
target is feeding 300-500 beavers max (it's a small map)
need to work out the middle and top still, playtest and so.

just: would it be more interesting to have orderly columns and caves like this?
or should it be wild and filled with stones and thick walls?

as water can only outflow to the right, this might do nicely to build a high dam (that's the intend anyway)

[shell fiber]

ah, i see you properly lined the front and back with source blocks to prevent water outflow, that was bugging me with RCE's map 😊

[cloud flax]

what is this???

[radiant arch]

yeah, where to find the prosthetics?

[cloud flax]

robot arms?

Beavorids?

[shell fiber]

uuuh... well... i may or may not have ever got to actually do this part 😅

but yes, the idea was to use robot parts to make prosthetic limbs

damn, my to-do list expanded a lot, thankfully that's not too critical stuff

and thankfully, tomorrow should be a very slow day at work

[shell fiber]

oh, i can just add that to the clinic 🤔

hmm well the fact that medication can be exported still bugs me a bit

grumpf grumpf

[cloud flax]

i can help you make a tech tree if you want. i just dont have the logos for buildings....

[shell fiber]

i'll think about that tomorrow

oh, no worries, i have an ODF file

i mean of course help is always welcome

[cloud flax]

oh can you share that? i have libre office

[shell fiber]

i should really pull my fingers out of my *** and make a public google drive or something 😅

sure

[cloud flax]

hahahahah no worries. these things take up ton of time and mental power. managing things is hard

by any chance you know about the wintergarten marble machine

[shell fiber]

the insane guy who made a music machine using marbles ?

i saw that on youtube yeah 😅

[cloud flax]

yeppppp

[still frigate]

@shell fiber I was gifted a couple of new games, so I haven't been paying close attention to the beaver world.

PLEASE, if you want my opinion or would like me to test something, just @ me. I am very willing and eager to do that. Otherwise I fear I might miss something since I'm not watching the channel like a hawk at this time.

[shell fiber]

uuh, the main question i had what how do people feel about the bad water bucketing post vs small bad water pump vs large bad water pump

[cloud flax]

yeah, he had a really really hard time setting up methods to involve others/general public into the build, so yeah, its tough work getting help from others for thing that you have been working on for a long time

[shell fiber]

generally i'm satified with the small bad water pump, but my playtesting generally resets due to game change before i ever feel the need for the bigger one

[still frigate]

I -never- waste the 30 science for a medium pump when 150 gets me the large. I go from the bucket of hell to the the large badwater pump.

[radiant arch]

did you test how far you can come with science - like doing the big reactors and wonder - that's usually the part i'm opting for the big pump

if you not rush on that 1 or 2 medium pumps are plenty indeed

[stiff flint]

I often do the same... if I use the smaller option it's because of space limitations or power problems

[cloud flax]

oh yeah power, i have used all three honestly but i feel the big bad water pump could be a bit more costly in science? the medium one works fine till the mid game but once you start using ENS, its not enough

[still frigate]

I think the only -reasonable- way to stop this would be to crank up the sicence needed for the large badwater pump, so that players like me would have a reason to do the medium.

[radiant arch]

on that: medium pump might be slightly more science costly too

[still frigate]

Have you no mercy?! /laughs

[shell fiber]

i don't know, i guess it could be 50 or so, but that is usually the very first thing i unlock, because if you want to dam up bad water, this is the building that should go at the bottom of the stack

[still frigate]

😊 I have never once thought to use it as a dam. The shame.

[shell fiber]

i'm pushing an update now, and the large bad water pump is now more expensive, but no longer requires a worker

[still frigate]

That is a very creative change. I like it. How much more expensive? (needs to be a lot -- 500-1000 at rough guess.)

[shell fiber]

i pushed it at 700 science

[still frigate]

Perfection!

[shell fiber]

but i thing this mandates a nerf to the medium bad water pump

because rather than spending 700 science, it might just be easier to build 3 or 4 of those

[cloud flax]

this is my general setup always. use the distillation plant as dam and place the pump below it

[shell fiber]

minor population increase but that happens all the time

[still frigate]

I usually avoid non-stackable buildings when designing a dam, unless I have no other choice.

[shell fiber]

well it goes on the top layer just fine 😅

[wary panther]

The worker (and generally more than one, because they get contaminated and have to rotate out) isn't enough to differentiate it?

[still frigate]

I -my- mind, a "top layer" is a temporary condition to be later remedied. 😛

[shell fiber]

on hollows i did that

[cloud flax]

never used that much bad water that i would need more than 1 layer of bad water but maybe it can be used as a way to filter out bad water too from mixed water

[still frigate]

This is the same reason I never build roottop terraces for any faciton.

[shell fiber]

litterally first science unlock was to block off that gunk from flowing in my river

[still frigate]

I make a LOT of red shrooms.

[woeful sun]

I don't think it's on mod.io. I'm pretty sure it's this one: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3479300437

[shell fiber]

"accidents" with the medium bad water pump are already drastically lower than the bad bucked, both in freqency and severity

[radiant arch]

i often have some buckets to filter minor contamination around pumps

[wary panther]

true, but still pretty frequent

or maybe the RNG just hated me at that point

I know when I built it it was effectively using 2-3 workers, 1 pumping and the others in jail

but as pop grew I quit paying so much attention

[radiant arch]

that's more what the bucket post should use

since i know about the beaver washer it's often no problem to have plenty contamination 🙂

[still frigate]

I'll say it again: It is fascinating seeing how other people play the game. I learn much from ideas I never think of on my own.

[wary panther]

They were similar, except that the small pump actually made enough badwater to keep up

Of course, part of that might be that I struggled to find any place where I could dam it up to submerge the impeller. So I eventually built it under a waterfall, were the badwater landing from above flowed over the impeller and that counted

but it isn't quite stable, and so maybe they sometimes it was running off the roof

I never saw it not take the shorter path off the back

but that might have been some of the accidents

[shell fiber]

Hmm sorry guys, my connection at home is so trash that I'll upload tomorrow from the lab's wi-fi 😅

[radiant arch]

gn

[still frigate]

Such things cannot be avoided.

[wary panther]

hey, at least that means one more day of mechanical water pump\

before I apparently have to rethink that part

[cloud flax]

will miss them :'(
my beaver free water making machines

[shell fiber]

Oh actually I think I'll keep them

[still frigate]

We need more items that eat excess beavers. /laughs

[shell fiber]

But possibly nerf them a bit, not too much

Although your plank consumption must be insane 😬

[wary panther]

I just have one, but it's saved things a couple times when every beaver was dirty at the end of the cycle, and it started up and provided drinking water while everybody took their bath.

now we have better plans for cleaning when the river baths are out of service

[still frigate]

This reminds me! One thing we -really- need is a 1x2x1 damn piece. We have a 1x2x2 but I often avoid it.

[wary panther]

Cool, you actually can build the medium mine underground (using tunneling dynamite to dig its underground hole, and linking them all off one access stair)

well, except for the fence on the surface

but that makes sense, keep out - boom happening below

[shell fiber]

Like a long narrow but not tall house ?

[still frigate]

Exactly!

[shell fiber]

That would make a very lousy house, can't use a kitchen house or a pass through lodge ?

That's what I usually do

[still frigate]

@brave ivy has one, but it only houses 1 beaver. I always thought something like that should house at least 2... but that is me. I haven't looked at how many the the 1x2x2 houses in a long time so I may be off.

[shell fiber]

Anyway, GN folks!

[cloud flax]

gn!

[still frigate]

gn

[shell fiber]

Basically guess by 3

[cloud flax]

and pass through lodges are essential for water engineering!! love themmm

[still frigate]

I would cry without them.

[brave ivy]

1x2x2 and 2x2x1 houses both house 3 beavers.
only the mini lodge at 1x2x1 has only 1 beaver.

[still frigate]

I was suggesitung a 1x2x1. A cozy little lover's flat. 😛

a 1x1x1 bachelor cube (aka student housing) I could see having only 1 beaver. 😛

[brave ivy]

was actually a lot of calculating for Leaf Coats to get something that works well. They have weirdly sized housing.

[still frigate]

I have enjoyed the LeafCoats housing. Makes a great filler. 😉

[wary panther]

Hmm, except that NoxBestia was just eaten by a Grue while headed to work

[still frigate]

Such things happen.

[wary panther]

super easy, barely an inconvenience

[still frigate]

It happens when the battery on one's torch goes dead.

Sorry... flashlight. I have been rather immersed in European culture as of late.

[cloud flax]

redid my old city area. water beaver district center surrounded by water finally.

[iron wind]

The Terrace beavers finally devised a floodgate dam at cycle 20. Which was a great relief for all the beavers housed in the PumpDam, who got terribly sick during last badtide 😅 (It's not my fault, there was just too much paperwork to allow the experimental floodgate project. No incident of my making at all 😄 )

[storm gulch]

Holy crap, this RULES

[storm gulch]

Mmmmmm there's that Waterbeavers suffering 🤣

[wary panther]

Seconding this question. I just tried to dig a trench/tunnel to pull badwater away from the banks, thus reducing contamination range. But I can't tunnel under the 70 degree cannon.

[wary panther]

Which spoils the plan for an "in channel" badwater diversion (just lower a downstream floodgate all the way during badtide, and the river becomes fast, narrow, and shallow - and contamination doesn't spread upward very much. But it won't let me trench/tunnel under that cannon (the other two worked fine)

[stiff flint]

There's been so much chatter about bad water pumps this configuration has been on my mind

[shell fiber]

I'll check that

[shell fiber]

Pretty good build if you ask me

But that's 18 beavers to keep everyone dry and safe 🤔

[wary panther]

Also Is it intentional that the large farmhouse is not watertight? The side barrels/wagon/etc I didn't expect to be, but the 3x3 house itself looked like it would be (and it says "tolerates up to one meter of water"). But the water flows right through.

[stiff flint]

i need to get the abyss running and work on the physics degree but this will be phase 2

[shell fiber]

not really but not an issue either. i could redesign it to have the wall form a tight fit, but that is not on my priority list

[wary panther]

OK. Just surprised me since most things that looks solid are watertight.

[radiant arch]

too bad you can't upgrade an upgraded dam . . .

(would have been too easy tbh)

[radiant arch]

the nuclear reactor not ignores seasons still, going dry and all bad-watery with them.
is that easy to fix? (not updated to 5.2.9 yet)

[stiff lily]

Every time you click on an irrigation option in the Irrigation Lodge it consumes another piece of water, so if you sit there and just click the same option, you can make water disappear

[shell fiber]

It's a custom script and I don't understand a single damn thing about it 😓

[stiff lily]

What does the script look like? Happy if you DM it to me instead

[shell fiber]

Hmm... This all comes from @scarlet pelican 's mod

Sure, give me a min

[scarlet pelican]

Hmm, really? Which component that building is using?

[shell fiber]

manufactory irrigation tower (from memory)

[scarlet pelican]

I can tell you for sure, it cannot "eat" water when you hit UI. It should be something else.

Or, maybe, I misunderstood the issue.

[radiant arch]

isn't that base game behaviour?
a manufactory losing all progress upon switching recipe?

[shell fiber]

i think there is a slight weird thing occuring with the reciepe selector, when you click on the building it appears as if no reciepe is selected, so maybe because of that, everytime you click on the reciepe it thinks you've changed the reciepe again, which reinitializes the progress and consume the ingredients again

not an issue worth sweating over i think

[stiff lily]

Yeah this seems to be it. Even when the building already has it selected, re-clicking it just “eats” the water. More of an oddity rather than a problem 😄

[cloud flax]

my big bad water pumps are no longer working....

[shell fiber]

oh, crap, uuh, they use the same reciepe as the huge dam

uuh, feel free to rollback

but they should still work 🤔

[cloud flax]

taking in power but no productivity

[radiant arch]

technically it's twice the size of diorama, so feeding 500+ shouldn't be a problem..
but.. just.. the farm is 103 tiles from cart.. and why does it need stairs to unlock to reach any lower?? (or massive dynamite and numbers unfeedable)
can see all those berries and sunflowers.. but can't reach..

lapan: i'm not so sure anymore a challenge like this is as much fun, as it might seem at first (with water beavers that is)

[iron wind]

And only two cycles later (both rolled Badtide) the colony is suddenly safe, everyone is zipping around happily and the beavers can start focusing on bigger projects, as basic survival seems secured for now.

I'm so glad that Lapan made the ziplines this accessible

[stiff flint]

I've crashed twice today while clicking on the new tailoring building.... I have not updated to the new patch

[shell fiber]

barely got the blueprints done in my playthrough 😉

[shell fiber]

what do you mean, crashed ? it causes crashes ? how ?

that's a pretty big issue

[stiff flint]

I get the crash screen and tossed out of game. It happened a 3rd time after that. My last action before crashing the 2nd and 3rd time was clicking the seamstress building, a short freeze, then crash screen.

[shell fiber]

yep, got the crash, fixed it

i accidentally inverted the max workers with the default worker number

i'm also looking into the oversized water pump.

will no longer require a blueprint, but is tossed far back tech wise

might make it require a clockwork controller too

i restored its reciepe though

[radiant arch]

just realised how convenient dynamite is for working under water

how about disabling that feature?

[shell fiber]

what do you mean ? make dynamite unable to explode underwater ?

not sure that's even possible 🤔 i would bet the script doens't care about anything going on in the building 😅

[radiant arch]

too bad..

[stiff lily]

This should be possible, but there’s nothing stopping someone from either draining a lake/river/etc and then blasting it before the water comes back. So it would be more of an inconvenience than actually making things harder. Would require planning of how you want to use the space before committing to dams and things though

[radiant arch]

technically could just sideway-tunnel too (pretty sure those are impossible to flood)
but likely that 'explode' button really is unaware of anything and just will trigger without deeper changes in the code..

[radiant arch]

now i need a second ENS for the stew

also: mechanized kitchen barely outputs more than normal kitchen for soups. is this intended?
(there's only the nightly production part, which comes without workers bonus, so it's rather 12,5-20% than 50% faster actually)

given the high cost of the thing i'd somehow expect it to be slightly faster or slightly more efficient (like 5-12%) on top of working automated at nights

not sure there's any lack of workers by the time it is enabled tbh (post-ENS)

and there's nothing new about it but making more fried rice (no deluxe stew )

still kinda works, but not feeling inclined to use it much rn (or at all)

oh, and a visual problem with ENS: the list is longer than my screen now!

[still frigate]

I use the mod that allows scrolling long displays like this. Forget which one that is.

[heavy lodge]

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3472334132

[cloud flax]

Oh didn't expect delux stee to be made in ENS. I thought you were gonna block the mech kitchen house behind something built by ENS

Does it make sense for ENS to make stew though 👀

[prisma merlin]

Is it possible to have mines under the reactor?

They're all getting flooded

[stiff flint]

yes, but you need to build a system to divert the water from the top to a safer location

[wary panther]

Anvil should be about 50 times the weight of the hammer. So depending maybe 50kg or so for a typical 1kg or so hand sledge. Maybe 5 times that for a team effort with a lead and multiple strikers using long-handle sledgehammers: https://www.reddit.com/r/Damnthatsinteresting/comments/sgemnl/the_way_blacksmith_use_tapping_to_communicate/ (not that this really matters to the game mechanics...)

Also, I'm not sure one should really finish building a factory by hurling the anvil off the top of a cliff and hoping it lands in the right place. Even if you don't really want to carry it down all those stairs

[shell fiber]

ah, yes, trying to make the dynamite floodable would require to do the same thing with tunnels, which is clearly beyond what i would consider doing 🤔

[shell fiber]

they use the same reciepe yes

[shell fiber]

problem with those is actually supplying the different ingredients. that's complicated indeed

[shell fiber]

crap, i didn't think about this...

okay, so maybe the deluxe stew should remain in the mech kitchen then...

[shell fiber]

hmm...cooking research 😅 ?

[shell fiber]

you of little faith, how dare you question beaver logic ? 🤣

ah, at long last i managed to upload the update on mod.io

sorry, you might have to suffer through this one until next week maybe

[wary panther]

I mean, if it's stupid and it works, it wasn't stupid? I sure wouldn't want to tackle all those stairs carrying a factory-scale anvil

[radiant arch]

just in time, yay! so needed a t-shaft 🙂

[cloud flax]

All those automated buildings like big bad water pump, the over sized water pump, now mech kitchen. I think you can incorporate the clock work, robot parts and even microprocessor while building. Need high tech stuff for beaverless productions

[iron wind]

I mean, there already is wine research, right? If you want it locked at certain tech level, why not?
Edit: Or what n-vince just wrote, that makes sense 😄

[radiant arch]

processors are mean: they require abyss facilities on top + bamboo frost chain

[cloud flax]

Oh yeah abyss is another level past ENS or parallel to it

[radiant arch]

could the t-shaft be _cheaper- than the x-shaft please? (i believe you might have mixed up the costs here?)

currently the horizontal costs same as the vertical versions - which is 1 gear, 1 platform and 1 log extra from the x-shaft 😱

[shell fiber]

good point

[shell fiber]

yes, in time it will. tbh i was prototyping these when i read about the seamstress crash, that needed fixing asap, i forgot to hide the T-shafts before packaging

[stiff flint]

I'm looking at a map for my next colony (Treasure Island uploaded to Steam earlier today) and I'm not seeing a lot of places for water wheels.... there's a single bad water source in a "volcano"

I'm thinking about trying to use solar power on scaffolding above farm land and supplement with methane engines instead of forcing water wheels onto a map that isn't built for them.... I know that's going to be the hard way, but is there anything that would make it impossible?

[radiant arch]

you can trade for them just fine

just might want 150 power from crappy wheels as starter (planks, screwpress, paper)

after you can go for engine, if there's too little hp to cover till you get solar power

only problem with the panels i see is that you need the factory to output some metal blocks first (plenty)

oh.. wait.. you need to unlock lotus too^^

[stiff flint]

i haven't used methane engines in a while.... they burn fuel 24 hours a day so i'll need to pair them with grav batteries or waste power over night

[radiant arch]

600 fried rice for one solar thingy haha

[radiant arch]

they work as battery: they stop at night

but otherwise they only go full-or-nothing

grav batteries are really helpful with them though (and with solar)

[stiff flint]

there's not a lot of scrap on the map either.... i'll need mining early

[radiant arch]

sounds like a challenge!

is there even enough spots for water pumps? just seen the map haha - there is plenty shore! just not many spots to put multiple in a line early

[stiff flint]

water won't be a problem.... i'm not turning bad tides back on until they're more interesting

i can only solve the same puzzle so many times

[cloud flax]

is there any tool in dev tools that automatically builds the item thats placed rather than always having to press finish now?

[radiant arch]

had a surprisingly fresh time with bad tides on this one now (curses..)
but it's basically the first 10s cycles, and fully forgotten about after floodgates are in

[radiant arch]

holding CTRL while placing it should build it asap (super fun with tunnel-dynamites 🙂

same as SHIFT + deletes => no more questions (dangerous)

ctrl also always unlocks science cost first (no questions asked)

[cloud flax]

ooooh didnt know about that! thanksss

trying some weird water engineering and wanna test it out

these tiles arent water proof btw.... i was hoping the tiles above the door would be waterproof

[radiant arch]

still a little sad it's only got 3m height. i know it's more than floodgates, yet it's so low still being ground-only
being able to build on top would allow many more options (even if only a single 3m extender dam using giant logs)

[cloud flax]

i was hoping for the water entry to be lower... but alas, what can we do

[cloud flax]

that sounds interesting.... maybe the extender can same screws which can be placed on the base of the screws of the dam and going down giving access to greater depth?

[radiant arch]

yeah. even harder to apply requiring a step in the reservoir, wouldn't it? (those screws are ground-only too)

would be fun to have multiple of those big dams next to each other

just so few spots to make that a reality given the size and limited height. but i guess that's fine. big, flat maps need those special options too

btw: is there a real need to have the screw part ground-only too?
would be much easier to place, if those could be just 'solid'? (the dam part itself should be ground-only imho. not sure about the lodge, but that's not a big difference i guess)

like with the primitive mine / drills: only the flags on top are ground-only. not the actual building. this is so much easier (allowing overhangs below for example)

[shell fiber]

Hmm... Those arguably could be 🤔

[shell fiber]

Yeah I agree, I would want it at least 4-tall and stackable, I'll rework it when I have time

[shell fiber]

What to do mean ? Lower than the dam base ?

[shell fiber]

Well I wanted to pretend the gears are underground 😅

[shell fiber]

The lodge part can go on stackable

[cloud flax]

Yeah. But I think grauschweifs perspective for options on flat maps makes more sense.
So I would much prefer if the building remains as is, but there is an add-on upgrade that can extend the screws even lower and keeps the base of screws ground only and modular so you need to have steps for whenever there is an attachment.
It would as well almost create an artificial water pump

Something like this? The orange part is like a modular base with gears (ground only) on which you can attach more screws
And the yellow is the actual screw pulling up the water

[iron wind]

Dam! Both the builder and the hauler tower upgrade have no access from the lower buildings. I did even try to help them reach it with the spiral staircase (bot. right), but without success. (Different buildings underneath, so I believe the towers are to blame.)

[cloud flax]

The bottom one should have worked... You got the second floor entrance.... The one above, i cannot see the second floor entrance though

[iron wind]

Afaik there should not be the need to have one. Zipline tower does not need it, nor other upgrades (farm, pump, ...)

[wary panther]

Yep. But the builder and hauler ones are differnet have their entrance on the second floor, instead of sharing the entrance of the smaller tower

I don't know why specifically, it's just a way in which the uprade lofts aren't all the same

[cloud flax]

All triangle+tower upgrades had 2nd floor entrance. Only the new zipline upgrade doesn't surprisingly

That includes the builder Tower, hauler tower, harvesters drying lodge and the old forestry viewing deck

[shell fiber]

I see the ideas but the water pump scripts really don't have that much flexibility, input pipes can only extend vertically, not sideways

I could kind of cheat of the system but that would open the door to really weird stuff especially if you have caves etc

[cloud flax]

Maybe use the pump function to actually pull water up and drop it near the water input of dam?

[shell fiber]

Strange, the bottom one should connect fine like this

[radiant arch]

the entrance of the triangle lodge is actually blocked sideways (imagine an invisible fence between signpost and lodge)
otherwise that would work, if it connected to a path below

[radiant arch]

it was just nitpicking on a great addition.
i like them a lot already!

[iron wind]

Well that's not very intuitive 😅 But thanks.
For the top tower, do I need to push the triangle building back one to gain access to the front of the tower? 🤔

[radiant arch]

you can access that one from the side, maybe

like the front entry tile of the tower should be accessible from the side too (not the back tile)

i believe you can also build a stair on the side-part of the lodge below

ladder + bridge works too though (in both cases)

[radiant arch]

oops.. wrong dynamite..

[radiant arch]

issue with hunger-death from cutting trees under crane rope still occurs. just so you know
(only lost around 7 beavers wondering why those trees never got cut 🙃 )

[shell fiber]

Oh, I had completely forgot about that 🤔

[radiant arch]

does only occur on cutting - neither blocks planting nor walking

likely not happens on brambles (but those are special)

not sure it happens for other trees (never tested yet)

[polar wind]

mhhh
my badwater pump isnt working anymore
It has power and haulers but its stuck at 37%.
ANy tipps or is it a bug?

[radiant arch]

there was a bug on 5.2.9 (?) version with the big bad water pump

other than that:

is the worker at the pump? you can click on them to see where they are - maybe they swapped due to old worker getting sick or something

is there contaminated water on top of the pump? if the 'screw' part isn't covered, or water is too clean, it might not progress

@still frigate you've been doing a good job for the colony

[still frigate]

I always try to do my best.

😉

[undone gale]

@shell fiber i am i soft locked if i don't have the rope i need to get more or am i missing something

[radiant arch]

florist can make fibres from sunflower seeds, handicrafter can make ropes early. (both are slow and inefficient)

[undone gale]

ty i was worried😄

[cloud flax]

The big bad water pump no longer has any wokers

[cloud flax]

But yeah still not working it is sadly

[cloud flax]

The dams be working nicely

[abstract vector]

https://tenor.com/view/cow-nice-dam-what-did-the-cow-say-to-the-beaver-gif-26304518

[cloud flax]

reached 111 well being!

Here. 66BA, and 15+ other stuff. 3 in robotics

[still frigate]

I think I got into the low 40s once, and that was me TRYING to make them happy.

[cloud flax]

40 is like my mid- to late mid game goal lol

also i wanna make a stadium sort of thing using mega platforms... think thats possible?

[still frigate]

Honestly have no close on that one.

[cloud flax]

i really wish there were benches though. or somthing 1x1 where beavers just come for looking at other monuments

rooftop terraces used to be good for that. miss them 🥹

[shell fiber]

i really like the giant pillars uses as decoration actually 🙂

[shell fiber]

good point...

doesn't the petanque courts also sort of fill that function ?

and the exercise plaza

or do you mean more of a building where the beavers just hang out, kind of to pretend they're just looking at things ?

[radiant arch]

a bench itself would be cool, or fancy with a terrace or some greenery (there's still the unused shrubs entry in the well-being list)

having that awesome tree with benches as a set would be the cherry on top though

[cloud flax]

This

[radiant arch]

can't zipline an anthill?

[cloud flax]

How are you even playing on that map... Is there even enough space to grow food??

[cloud flax]

Oh I miss that tree too lol. It was a beautiful asset!
But never got to use it 🥲

[radiant arch]

technically.. 500 should be possible without clockwork farms..
it's super slow. careful planning. but right now i can feed close to 200 (no stews or fried rice yet). with half the farmable land used.
water currently is the bigger problem. just not enough storage.. +irrigation..
and ropes.. it's 100% sunflower seed fibres still.. (like 1 cycle for 1 zipline station..)

it's twice the size of diorama. so should be easier than that (i thought..)

[shell fiber]

I still have it somewhere, but plants are hell, you need 6 to 9 3D models and 3 textures

[cloud flax]

Yeah... After the recent update on storage... I finally gave up on actually storing the water and started using dams properly as intended. But in this map, how will you even make a dam...

[shell fiber]

Happy to hear that 😇

[radiant arch]

same: so much more fun to make dams now!

there's a spot up with the cliff where the big dam fits in (~3k units)

and the deep cavern thing on the right middle layer can store a lot too (3-5k units)

[cloud flax]

Oh wow! Damn. I was planning to make a life and death garden actually so that I can show all the crops and tree types in all their forms....
I just had in mind the alive and dead, seedling and grown versions. What other versions are there??

Ooh there are three stumps too.. can add that

Harvested and un harvested versions...that would be hard, if my storages are full

Man... Imma be needing a lot of space and planning for it

[shell fiber]

Tree stumps can be disregarded because you can disable them if you want to. What you're missing is the model with/without fruit

And the "dry but not dead yet"

[cloud flax]

Oh nooo. How will I ever manage to have it

[shell fiber]

Well your can go the lazy way and just change the colour, or you can go one step further and have the leaves droop

But some models actually use gray-scale textures and vertex paint, which is more convenient but hard to preview in blender

[cloud flax]

I was actually talking about having it in my life and death garden 🫣😅... How to perpetually show the "drying and dying" state as I wanted to showcase all possible models of growables in my garden

[radiant arch]

setting a lido tactically to barely reach at very low levels and thus fluctuate between stages?

can serve the rice + lotus too maybe..

those would seem more tricky to get into that state (but not die)

oh, and bamboo!! those 'flood' at >4m i believe. very nice setup to have a lido set up with steps so it goes between 3.99 and 4.01 🙂
(if that isn't enough a floodgate might work to have half the reservoir 'flooded' and half 'fine'?)

[plain kite]

Have you figured this out? I have the same problem.

[polar wind]

The pump dont requires a worker
So idk xD
It has enough bad water

[polar wind]

Im at work atm

The pump stopped at 37% and it has enough power and enough bad water.
It worked fine until the faction or some of the mods for it got an update and after that the pump stopped working

[shell fiber]

do you have a screenshot of your layout ?

[plain kite]

i've paused it because it does not work. (and the layout it's WIP)

[shell fiber]

they usually submerged right ? the back side at least ?

[plain kite]

yes. This exact layout used to work (about 2 weeks ago) .

[shell fiber]

hmm... does anyone has those actually working ?

[plain kite]

a better view.

[shell fiber]

should be all good 😓

[radiant arch]

just added one: does not progress at all

[plain kite]

@shell fiber If I remember correctly it used to have workers . Now it does not.

[radiant arch]

those crystals are really cool. add so much to the atmosphere

[shell fiber]

Maybe I forgot one script

[shell fiber]

Yes that's the point, they are automated now

[cloud flax]

What are these????

[radiant arch]

from lapans map editor mod

floating crystals. usually they go on top of invisible pillars, like this. but i like them for the lights too (especially under water)

[cloud flax]

Would be purrfect for underground colony!

[radiant arch]

only limitation: those invisible pillar block anything but path (and water..) 🙂

and it's a funny mess when you dynamite / remove something below it haha

[shell fiber]

I wonder is they stay once the roof they support is connected to dirt blocks that touch z=0

[radiant arch]

before and after removal of the invisible pillar 🤯

seems, like it can work, if there's support for the roof!! (or from the side?)

removing the support pillars here made it vanish with next load

1 tile above the crystal was lost too. so maybe that's where it anchored?

that's pretty cool actually and might be useful for map-making! thanks!

(hope it works there too)

put the support 2 tiles away and it vanished upon reload
so it actually might need for it's 'rocky base' to be fully supported by something else - from the side

[still frigate]

I was playing with that but it caused my map to crash and be corrupted beyond repair.

One thing that may keep yours going as you're doing it inside a game where I was doing it inside the map editor itself.

[radiant arch]

yeah, it might behave differently there

using git on map file helped me at times.. i'm super prone to break or crash them..

[radiant arch]

works with seamstress, not works with lumberjack's barn. should it work?

[shell fiber]

Hmm... Maybe let's not poke at this too much, let's just keep the supports 😅

[still frigate]

Oh, I totall accept it was my fault.

[shell fiber]

Seems to be the barn is in the way 🤔
Although it probably could accept it 🤔

[radiant arch]

visually it 'might' fit

would be helpful. but not really important. first time i'd wanted it

[shell fiber]

I'll see if that mess with the upgrades

Added to the to do list because I was definitely going to forget 😅

[still frigate]

Is adding LeafCoats to your map mod on your list? 😉

[shell fiber]

Oh, yes sure.

They have grapes now? Or not yet ?

[still frigate]

Yes, they do.

One of their primary food sources.

[radiant arch]

oh, if you touch the map reader anyway: the crystals should be 'devmode' -> rn you can place them anytime during gameplay

[still frigate]

I really should learn how to mod this game... if nothing more than to add your wine to other clans. 😛

[radiant arch]

you can pretty easily copy&paste the json files. it's just text

there's even plenty option changing visuals (materials) or costs or adding simple features with just those

[still frigate]

And the winery, and add grape juice somehow... and so on.

[radiant arch]

that's not in - you'd need to copy those assets out of whitepaws (without enabling whitepaws)..

if you just wanted to 'repurpose' a vanilla buildings, that would work i guess

like give it fitting materials to look the part and change recipes

[still frigate]

Right now I'll stick to just playing, but the idea is percolating in my old brain.

[radiant arch]

it's fun to play with! (it's not really difficult even to use unity. especially with knattes videos to set you up)

certainly need to go back to fixing choo choo at some point.. but need to play this anthill colony for now 🙂

[still frigate]

It is sorta hard for me to learn new things now. Very frustrating.

[radiant arch]

yeah. take it slow and not expect yourself to be perfect in few days 😉

it's hard for me too

it's fun too

[still frigate]

It is one of the cruelest things age gas done to me. I love to learn and used to self-teach new things all the time.

[radiant arch]

yeah

oh, dam, the seamstress can flood..

[still frigate]

Noooo!

[radiant arch]

so much for my glorious designs...

was so proud of this combination. need to come up with something new 🙃

btw: side-entrance for triangle harvester / tapper would be really cool. that little path next to the little garden seems to open to side and front equally.

so many demands^^ sorry! it's all fine really, just.. those pop up sometimes as 'would-be-nice-to-have'

[shell fiber]

Oh, it should not

[shell fiber]

You can keep it flooded until next update 😅

[cloud flax]

Please add the big bad water pump fix as well... My beavers are constantly going to jails :P

[radiant arch]

oh, you know, actually it's fine. who likes wet pillows anyway?

[radiant arch]

non-upgraded pumps can flood too, if water goes over 1m. the upgrade waterproofs them.
always thought this was logical. but in case it's unintended: here you are

[radiant arch]

big dam got me confused: expected those door-like things on the sides to connect somehow. only realised later they are just arches, not leading to anything.

oh.. that's where the shafts go in?? that's so hard to see^^

[stiff flint]

How long does it take for a beaver to get out of contamination jail?

And do pumpkins look more yellow than orange to anybody else?

[radiant arch]

depends on how badly contaminated they are tbh

can be within some hours for the small pumps

or last very long if they fell into badwater

resistancy potions shorten it lots

json files say: 0.08 cure contamination and 0.65 antidote (??) per unit of those potions

[stiff flint]

I'm not sure how contaminated the water my lotus is growing in is, but the crew that planted them was in recovery for the full 8 days it took for the lotus to grow

[radiant arch]

isn't unlikely i'd say

percentage of contamination for water = chance to get (very) sick from it

can't find the number easily. it's hidden somewhere in the timberborn heaps..

in vanilla they heal 55% faster

with potions

[stiff flint]

Thanks for checking.... I thought the resistance options were locked behind bamboo so I skipped it until now.

I'm enjoying this island map.... wet/dry seasons feel more like high/low tide than droughts

[radiant arch]

technically a fully contaminated beaver should heal with 12.5 potions
can't see numbers on the jail in any file. but is much slower

potions only need red mushrooms, yeah

[radiant arch]

that's the plan (sandboxed). now only need to somehow build it for real

[radiant arch]

btw: golden gate might be broken: no path under it

[radiant arch]

updated plan 🙂

with those dams: as edges between lodge and pillars aren't watertight and power so close to them, that's kinda tricky to connect to

visually i'm not sure, but being able to also connect through the circle like thing in the water might be helpful. or anywhere from the waterside actually

here i connected them from below, gaining a drain channel at the same time

also connected the 'door' using a ladder

worked, but not sure it's that elegant

[shell fiber]

also took care of that

i also put some sense in the T shafts, and fixed their respective costs.

but can't push an update today i'm afraid

tomorrow hopefully

GN !

[iron wind]

I finally built an ENS to see the science efficiency I read so much about... Only to find out that to use it for science, one still has to go through the whole Tree Nursery grind. Oh well, I'm certainly glad I did not destroy the old good library to get the books out of it, seems I'll be with it for a long time still.

With 450 more science for trading baloons, 750 for Drill and 1000 for Tree Nursery it feels kinda bad to unlock the Big Shiny Science building (that you need for the Drills, which you need for the dirt), only to build some Clockwork Thingies in it and then having to pause it...

[wary panther]

that you need for the Drills, which you need for the dirt
You can also trade with IronTeeth for the dirt

If you want to get the Tree Nursery going before you try for the ENS/Drills/clockwork/etc

[still frigate]

You'll need your ENS if you want wine too.

I usually build 3 of them.

None on science. /laughs

[cloud flax]

Why 3??

[still frigate]

For the degrees. They can't be copied.

[cloud flax]

I only ever built 1. I can understand another one for delux stew now

[still frigate]

I have 1 for the BA, one for the MS, and one for the PHDs

Plus you need them for certain circuit parts in late game.

[cloud flax]

Do you wanna fill up the storages of degrees too?

[still frigate]

Nope. I make only as many as I need.

But I usually need around 10 BAs, 2 or 3 MS, and I'm still not sure on PHDs.

[cloud flax]

With one ENS, currently I have like 60+ BA, 25is something M in metallurgy, PhDs and other stuff

[still frigate]

Wow! How many cycles have you run??? It takes like RL hours for each one for me.

[cloud flax]

Around 70 cycles

Normal ofc

[still frigate]

Ah. I rarely cross 20 cycles in a game before I get a crazy idea and start a new one

[cloud flax]

Wow

20 cycle is still like mid Game for me lol

Might not even have unlocked the Ens XD

[still frigate]

Now I am being inspired to drop my LeafCoats run and start up a fresh WhitePaws run to I can makes notes on how many cycles at each major milestone. /laughs

[cloud flax]

Speed run Water beavers hehehe

[still frigate]

I don't speed run anything. Generally I think I'm being slow. /laughs

[cloud flax]

I think map also matters a lot

[still frigate]

Oh yeah.

[cloud flax]

If you have easily accessible plains for farming early on and nice water capture, bad tide diversion systems possible then you can grop the pop fast

[still frigate]

You also might have a high happiness. I struggle with happiness in my games.

[cloud flax]

Early on usually am between 11-20. Then somehow it goes to 30-40 when I brought in possessions. Then it surprisingly scales fast to 50-60 upon the mech kitchen house. Only after that I add the statues and the fun stuff to reach 100+

[still frigate]

I have never made it all the way to the wonder in WhitePaws. Perhaps I should fire up Lemon Canyon and try yet again to do that.

I almost never get happiness past 40, and that is a struggle for me to reach.

[cloud flax]

Don't you get that much just from all different food sources....

[still frigate]

I'm probably not doing all the foods is why. Like I have only made deluxe stew in one or two games.

[cloud flax]

I really wanna see now how you play the game lol...like what's the goal if not this XD

[still frigate]

Keep my beavers alive. Unlock everything. Build everything. Oh look, a squirrel! <game abandoned> /laughs

[cloud flax]

Keeping alive is hardddd

That's why I take the mid game slower to just have excess shit ton of food

[cloud flax]

124k food here

Would have been higher if lapan had not reduced the hand of soup capacity lol

8k of every stew

[still frigate]

This will be my first time playing lemon canyon as it was meant to be played. Last time, Lapan's map mod was not working with U7.

[cloud flax]

All the best!!

[still frigate]

Got a good start. Cycle 1, day 8. Happiness 8. Growing rice, cabbage, and sunflower. More chestnuts to be planted.

Still trying to cleanup the starting area as well as get my new district center built.

[cloud flax]

Looking nicee

[iron wind]

Ah, so there is a way, hmmm.
Btw. I probably would not fall into this noobtrap if the building preview was not so big that it does not fit the screen - it cut the science entry out when I was deciding what to unlock next...

[iron wind]

PS: I hope it does not sound like I'm complaining too much. This is how it goes with complex mods, I know that very well, just trying to give some feedback.

[radiant arch]

thanks lapan for adjusting the dirt trading and nursery costs!!

if you stocked up on salt a tree nursery is just ~15 days of trade now 🎉
(i build one with the old settings still, which took 2 balloons and many cycles. was not worth it haha)

actually.. hmm.. can decently do a few stews or make ENS scroll without lotus now from trading and florist.
20 dirt per day per balloon so 20 lotus so enough tea and mushroom stew for up to 300 beavers i guess.. dam.. i should have gone that route faster..

[still frigate]

The T-shafts are back! I missed that notice somewhere.

[radiant arch]

with the next update actually. only mock versions (same as universal)

[still frigate]

Ah. Glad I havn't spent the science. This new slower science is a bit of a struggle. /laughs

[radiant arch]

it's actually amazing you can provide the food and water to have that limiting you!

[still frigate]

I'm struggling with the water actually.

[radiant arch]

mine too.. 2 days to go with the drought and only 1 sake and 1 lemonade per beaver left..

[still frigate]

I don't even know how I have the weather mod set. I know I'm getting rain and surprisingly refreshing. I haven't been using it my last two games and forgot.

Active are:

• drought
• rain
• monsoon
• surprisingly refreshing.

My usual.

And, of course, ebb and flow.

[radiant arch]

@still frigate you know that feeling, when you play your own map and should know it all? and it's just besting you again and again...

[still frigate]

That feeling and I are too well acquainted!

[radiant arch]

i see..

[still frigate]

Nearly every map I make or have ever made has done that to me.

Some of it I blame on my brain.

[radiant arch]

it's kinda amazing what a brain can come up without anyone noticing, isn't it?

[still frigate]

Never trust a brain, especially your own; it knows your weaknesses. 😛

[radiant arch]

thank you!
now i feel better for flooding 2 out of 7 layers in unexpected way by diverting some water away from my 20 new trees 🙂

[still frigate]

My stacking strategy wont work with the small badwater pump.

[radiant arch]

oh, why is that?

[still frigate]

It is specifically blocked. I can do it with a double gap but not a single.

[radiant arch]

too bad.
does this one work? (that's my go-to for waterfalls)

[still frigate]

There is a second medium pump dug into the ground.

[radiant arch]

the overhang wont fit otherwise?

[still frigate]

That is a neat way to do it.

[still frigate]

nope. works on the large.

[radiant arch]

short skewer not works either?? dam..

[still frigate]

or it did last time I tried.

[radiant arch]

pretty sure that's unintended!

skewer placement seems broken on small bad water pump only

[still frigate]

Glad it still works on the large one.

The ladder used to be a lot cheaper, right? I don't remember 800 science for it.

[radiant arch]

oh, it's been like that for a while i think. not using them much until very late now (actually often not going for factory even till cycle 30 or something)

[still frigate]

I want metal beams so I need the factory asap.

[iron wind]

This whole area could have been a very large reservoir, but on my last game I was so starved for berries that I went out of my way to protect this patch (notice the wall of kitchen houses).
Do you guys often rebuild and repurpose whole areas, or are you more of a "if it works, leave it as it is" type and just expand elsewhere (if the map allows that ofc)?

[still frigate]

Both. Depends on each case and what I need.

[radiant arch]

both too

[still frigate]

Some things I build knowing I'll later rip them out and redo it. Like these waterwheels. When I unlock it, I'll have the big wheels in their place.

That is why the extra space between them.

[radiant arch]

usually going for efficiency - if there's a better spot and distance / hauling no problem, that's a very nice option.
if something works, i try and see if it can increase productivity / well-being. but if it's falling short, i not mind replacing it

[cloud flax]

My starting area always gets a redo completely

Late game I plan my areas to occupy least space and also look beautiful but I don't oppose demolishing them either

[radiant arch]

my starter area was kinda.. forgotten about..

[radiant arch]

pressurised water is a curious thing in timberborn.. that floodgate on the right can 'store' around 100m³ for up to 3 days 🙃
when released a 30m pipe is drained, even though it's technically 3m below the river..

even weirder: the pressure is high enough to push all that river through the dam under that water tank down to <0.2m. that's 35m³ magically gone down the waterfall like no dam existed

[radiant arch]

finding out about underground mines was a game-changer tbh
9 dynamites, some path-tunnel and done! could plant a garden on top even 🤔

[stiff flint]

placing terminal segments on top of the new pumps is some of the twitchiest placement i've seen in a while.... is there a trick or "right" side to use?

[radiant arch]

they do actually have a side. so rotating them might be needed

they are super tricky.. always trying angles and zooming in and out till it fits. no better idea

[still frigate]

It also -usually- helps to aim your curser around here when trying to place the things.

[radiant arch]

i got the same fun with the contamination..

it's when they go in and out of rather dirty water a lot.. they seem to add it up while "feeling unwell" and go with max contamination after. takes many many days to recover from

[stiff flint]

i'm using the advanced pump with the peaked roof.... i think the problem is because of the steep cliff i'm next to.... instead of sliding into the right spot it places it at the bottom of the cliff

[still frigate]

Ah. There is a trick to that one also, but I haven't unlocked them in this playthrough to remind myself and thus share it.

[radiant arch]

is there? i'm struggling with those and ignore that mostly..

[still frigate]

Everything has a trick I have discovered. It is 1) finding it; and 2) remembering it. 😛

2 is the really big one for me.

[stiff flint]

i'm planning to move that farm to a cleaner area as soon as I can.... a project that is currently locked behind a single terminal segment

the resistance potions helped a lot but it's still a lot more beavers out of service than i want to run.... and a washing machine is a long stretch of work before it's a possibility

[radiant arch]

yeah. only option. i warded my patch of badwater off too. 26+ permanently contaminated beavers was almost deadly (15% of them all..)

[radiant arch]

just realised that too: it's virtually impossible to keep up with the potions with that situation

with another game (nox map) i had success with draining the badwater out using a big pump just in front of it. but that lake had only flow through an edge, so was quite friendly to clean

[still frigate]

Is it the medium science doing it? I am confused of the cause. I don't know how many I am suffering because I had a monsoon and badwater contaminated 1/3 of my population. That was like 111 beavers at the time. 78 are still contamianted.

[stiff flint]

i wish i had the spare science to drop a water gauge in there and see what the mix is in the water.... ironically i don't have enough science to do the science 🙂

[radiant arch]

||alt+x gives a cheat tool ||

but visually: if it's reddish it's gonna get them sick

[still frigate]

I have never used that one. Anyway, this game I am avoiding all cheats. We'll see if I last! 😛

[radiant arch]

i need it for map testing a lot

the outflow part is super helpful

[stiff flint]

it can wait.... i'm not going to be able to effect the water mix in any way for a long time so i can collect the data later if it's important

[radiant arch]

a water farm with enough contamination to affect beavers too often

if you can survive it it's a fun challenge too haha

oh, nox is contaminated too..

small lapan as well.. oh dear

hope you recover fast, both of you

[still frigate]

Doom and gloom, I tell you. Doom and gloom!

[wary panther]

Just so you don't end up like the creature currently haunting my library

He's 107, starving, dehydrated, coated in grime, contaminated, hasn't slept or been home in dozens of cycles (since I noticed him)

[radiant arch]

oh, those are fun

[wary panther]

Just sits at the same table

[radiant arch]

had one in a shower. stayed 387 years

how'd you manage that?

[wary panther]

I assume chowing down on salts and scribbling furiously

while all the other patrons give him a wide berth

[stiff flint]

a haunted library just in time for Halloween

i got it to snap in.... i dropped another building in behind it so it wouldn't be placed farther way and it went right in

[still frigate]

I used to make a second library now and then for "shits and giggles". Usually it was just to speed up ENS produciton for the books. But now it feels almsot like a necessity.

[still frigate]

Her I am, cycle 6, factory unlocked, and I forgot to make tailors!

[stiff flint]

the tailors have quickly earned an early place in my build order.... the shape of the building is almost as useful as the things it makes

[still frigate]

Same reason I burned the science to unlock this little beastie.

[still frigate]

Do you know... can the fence be on platforms or does it have to be on dirt also?

[radiant arch]

i believe the fence is ground-only

i not tested that part yet

[still frigate]

I feared it was.

[wary panther]

you can, however, platform over the fence

[radiant arch]

fence is ground-only

as is the fire and all 6 tiles under the 'building' part

you can have a platform under the path or dig out any other tile thought

just the round under the fence and the 7 tiles below are restricted

[still frigate]

I was playing LeafCoats last game and going form 6 dirt to 1,000 dirt per dirt block keeps tripping me up.

But when I was playing them, I kept avoiding dirt blocks in the beginning because "I couldn't possibly have enough dirt." /laughs

The tricks the brain plays.

[wary panther]

Second mine is of course buried under the coal pile, fence is platformed over (and some of it has gravity weights on that, getting gradually built as expansion makes sense)

[still frigate]

I love doing that to my medium mines.

[polar wind]

mhhh
found a bug or something like that

its saying its not effected, but the water turned into badwater

[radiant arch]

something broke with U7 sadly

it's exaclty like a normal water source now

[still frigate]

Oh, I hope Lapan can fix it!

[radiant arch]

nice idea to divert water without aqueducts though

[radiant arch]

he seemed unsure last time i asked.
i wanted to see if i can next week. fear this one might need a script. not sure yet. vanilla not seems to have such buildings that are a source.

[still frigate]

I hate to point a modder to another modder, but Luke might know.

[radiant arch]

sure might. might have a solution already too haha

usually it's not so complex as not to look into it directly tbh

(actually i just want an editor source that's fixed-contamination. like not affected by ebb&flow or seasons)

[still frigate]

I once was so discouraged by someone saying, "Go look: X did this, so why can't you do it?" that I stopped modding for a few months. (Back when I was still a modder.)

[radiant arch]

that's silly. things can take hours to get into and plenty more to work out. luke's spend plenty to get around i'm sure. sorry to hear you had such a bad time due to it!

those lazy comments suck

[still frigate]

They do, and I took way too many of them to hearrt. I knew better, but I still tried to please EVERYONE to the point of burnout. And that was before trying to switch from a senior Windows admin to a Linux admin.

[radiant arch]

sounds harsh

gn for now. i'll try and see if i can get around some simple solution for the seasoned abyss source

[still frigate]

To use a barely applicable phrase, I don't want to coninute the cycle of abuse.

[radiant arch]

you certainly not deserve it and never did

[iron wind]

I'm all three btw 😆

[stiff flint]

and that was how you burn all of the scrap metal on the map before you remember to make a drill bit

[still frigate]

A question I have never been willing to try...
if one has two architect buildings and sets them both to reserch the same thing, is the research combined or are you doing two independant researches? (I think the latter since it treats research more like a craft.)

[still frigate]

Fortunately one can make fresh scrap with starter level tech.

[stiff flint]

you can.... but it hurts when you need to

the map i'm using had minimal scrap on it so i started mining before i made my first metal block

[midnight escarp]

I don't see why it would combine efforts unless Lapan did something I'm missing. They would each just make progress on their own instance of the research recipe

[still frigate]

The more I thought about it, the more that was my conclusion as well. Then I started feeling dumb for even asking. /laughs

[wary panther]

I mean, it's not a stupid question. If you add multiple workers to a build, the recipes go faster instead of letting you run two recipes at once. It's just that there's no such collaboration between two buildings

[midnight escarp]

Definitely would be nice if there were a way to do that

[wary panther]

Of, course, that's the basic problem with the idea. It would be nice, which implies it would not increase total suffering.

Sometimes one must accept a decrease in per capita suffering in order to prevent mass death, and its implied cessation of suffering. But "nice things" are not generally essential for survival.

The colony must grow, but individuals ought not to enjoy the experience.

[still frigate]

Then why does everyone (try to) get happiness over 100? /laughs

I've got my average up to 19! Nearing the end of cycle 8 and have just built my second library.

All my sunflowers keep going to dynamite. The more I plant the more stuff I blow up. /laughs

[wary panther]

Sounds like you have too many Ringworld novels in that library

[still frigate]

I do like me some Niven.

Last thing I read of his was one of the Man Kzin Wars anthologies. Been years though.

[wary panther]

How come the small warehouse can be buried (have dirt on its roof, or be placed into a tunnel) but the long tiny and pit warehouse can't?

[still frigate]

My poor beavers!

[still frigate]

This poor guy has to be stuck somehwere even if the game doesn't say I have any stranded beavers. 🙁

Yep. Stuck in the library.

@shell fiber FYI - Other people were mentioning this kind of thing happening earlier in the chat today.

@radiant arch A gray tail finally showed up in one of my games. 🙂

Poor Saza. They took one last zip line ride then crawled home and died (of hunger despite 1.4k food available).

Hrm... Saza was the only one in that bad of shape.

[woeful sun]

Does dying give a -30 buff 😛

[still frigate]

Look back just a bit. -10 hunger, -10 thirst, -10 contamination.

[still frigate]

@shell fiber I just caught a few naughty beavers ignoring physics and clipping right through the wall here. Both directions.

Caught in the act!

😛

The building in question might help. Sorry.

[livid zephyr]

water tight, not beaver tight. common mistake. 🤪

[still frigate]

Them there engineers always putting in secret doors.

[livid zephyr]

if you dont put in a bad door, are you even a programmer?

[radiant arch]

and seems exceptionally happy! 23! 🤯

[still frigate]

For me that is pretty good.

Thirteen hours in one session and just now had a crash. That's not bad for as heavily modded as I run this.

Hard crash too. Steam wouldn't end the game. Had to do the whole "end process tree" bit.

Wish Windows had a "kill -9" sometimes.

[radiant arch]

that well-being actually is pretty normal for that stage of game. maybe you never experienced much higher as you not played that long past ENS?

[still frigate]

I'm not even to ens yet. I mean I could be researching the schematics for it, but I want all the other schematics first.

[radiant arch]

it usually goes up to 20s quickly with library. but only jumps with foods to 40s mid-gamish and at some point post-ENS and with all techs basically suddenly goes up to 100

[radiant arch]

i enjoy that too. always go for ENS last now, since the rebalancing started

[still frigate]

I have done fair on the food.

Even berries are okay-ish, especially considering I lost all my berry plants to a monsoon flooding badwater into the canyon. I need more sawdust and water, as always.

Usually I don't even bother with granola bars until I start into the abyss. That has been a mistake. They really help.

[radiant arch]

yeah, i underestimated how much they save on seeds and berries too for far to long

riceballs look interesting. i always lack the rice to make them (and they not give anything but satiation)

[still frigate]

I have massive amounts of rice most of the time. This is Lemon Canyon... that river is full of rice.

[radiant arch]

wow! so much farmable land!

[still frigate]

It was you asking earlier how I fed and watered everyone, wasn't it?

[radiant arch]

maybe i did ask some other day. dunno

you seem to have plenty farms and woodcutters around all the time

[still frigate]

This is what I was mis-remembering.

[radiant arch]

my approach is always to have just the bare minimum just in time haha. so cool to see different strategies!

[still frigate]

I try to keep food and drink saturated in these kinds of games.

[radiant arch]

much more sensible choice!

[still frigate]

More food over here too, but primarily sunflower seeds to keep up dynamite production. I took the top of the plateau above my district center.

This "refreshing" weather needs to end so I can get more badwater. /laughs

That took a lot of dynamite.

Can minty bamboo survive any depth?

Oh... nvm... I don't have it unlocked yet.

[radiant arch]

4m

i believe

[still frigate]

That's double lilis right?

[radiant arch]

double, yeah

but anything from 0.1 to 3.99 works

[woeful sun]

Update 6 or 7?

It might be the same,

[still frigate]

7

I have this ncie deep area I can't use for anything else.

[woeful sun]

Let's see how much update 7 whitepaws has broken timbertrees,

I got it working nicely with Emberpelts and Leafcoats yesterday

[still frigate]

Nice!

[radiant arch]

before monsoon and day 1 (inbetween badwater initially spilled a whole floor in the middle getting 20 beavers sick )
and it's still growing for another 7 days..

[still frigate]

Monsoons gotta be weird in an anthill map.

[radiant arch]

handling monsoon overflows is another level of pain..

lemon canyon must flood nicely too? or is there too weak sources to really do much evil?

[still frigate]

Before I put up protection it had massive flooding.

The four badwater sources here overflowed the banks up here and also through a canyon right down onto my district center. Everything here, upper and lower, was covered in badwater!

The flattened plateau wasn't even made yet.

Badwater came though here. That is why that building was rushed down. It spent a few cycles without any access to it before I finally got things fixed down below.

[radiant arch]

awesome to have recovered from that!

[still frigate]

It was touch and go for a bit

WTF??? When the game reloaded after the crash my platforms here vanished!

They had been there for a couple of cycles at least and this saves daily.

[radiant arch]

combination of overhang and long skewer?

[still frigate]

Yeah

[radiant arch]

poor lapan^^

technically they overlap the same root occupation i guess

might work while playing, but not work in saves

[still frigate]

Others are still there.

[radiant arch]

that's a very different case. they not overlap

on the root tile

[still frigate]

these two overlap.

The are both long skewers

[radiant arch]

nope. the only tile that actually matters is the end that's fixed to the ground

you should only be able to overlap those for overhang + long-skewer combination rn

not sure you could do so with short bridge too. maybe

might be wrong though

[still frigate]

long and long first image I can't put a long and short together (second image).

Somewhere on this map (don't remember where) I used a cliffside overhand and put a platform on it, then did skewers on the platform.

No, I chaned my mind. I was going to do that, then I switched to water storage so I didn't need the platforms after all.

[radiant arch]

metal coming in - join the morning jog down to the red lake

[still frigate]

Why is the road rubble silver? It is white-ish in my game?

[radiant arch]

(that last one cheated.. carrried a single coal only..)

daytime?

and lowest quality

[still frigate]

I'm on my desktop so I'm running high quality. I run lower quality on my laptop.

[radiant arch]

ultra quality. this is down below, so shadows, also dawn (rotating sun).

[still frigate]

Ah. Shadows. That explains it.

[radiant arch]

wished i could play on ultra quality.. looks nice..

[still frigate]

I'm at 760 beavers and so far my system is still giving acceptable FPS even at 3x speed. But it is starting to show signs of strain.

Okay, I just did an exit to desktop and am loading back in. I check that section for missing skewers... if it is oaky, I'll just call it a crash-fluke.

And it's fine! Weird.

[radiant arch]

did you test overhang + long skewer?

[still frigate]

No... I almsot never use that. combo.

I assume this is what you mean?

testing

[radiant arch]

oh, you did use something else for the vanished shafts?

[still frigate]

Yeah. The double long.

I didn't even unlock the cliffside one until a cycle ago or so.

I've just been playing for so long straight that I'm getting easily confused. /laughs

[radiant arch]

oh. that's interesting

[still frigate]

I do the short skewer because it is made with scrap.

Then I do the long skewer and/or corner skewer.

Still here.

I just learned that I can do this!

NOW the cliffside one has a LOT more value.

[iron wind]

On the previous topic - Devising overflow protection for monsoon is a nice challenge and I think it should be in vanilla. That being said, it is not easy to make emergency overspills with the pieces we have. You'd like to have more dam levels at your disposal. RN you can only work with levels 0,65; 1 (with pop cost); 1,65; 2 (with even more pop cost) and having floodgate dams everywhere gets costly real soon.

[radiant arch]

you'll have to use lodges, a lot

[still frigate]

This row of buildings was my monsoon overflow protection after what nearly wiped me out.

[radiant arch]

kits took over everything...
30% of all beavers are kits rn. and it might be the end to this colony.. or a close call..

[still frigate]

Yikes!

[still frigate]

What nearly wiped me out when I didn't have those buildings was an overflown bank of badwater that went down and into the bottom of the canyon. Killed all those crops and more.

[iron wind]

Yea, it brings unexpected surprises. On Terraces if the monsoon lasts long enough, the lowest part of the map becomes one giant lake as it cannot drain fast enough. Luckily it was uninhabited...

[still frigate]

Terraces used to be my favourite map. I played it so many times in the older versions.

[radiant arch]

the off-screen hitbox of that library sucks.. accidentally exploded mine when i wanted to demolish something many layers below and could not see it in the way due to layer tool..
(same issue with crappy water wheels actually, but less troublesome to rebuild)

[still frigate]

Not fun

[radiant arch]

not at all. glad i had an autosave

[still frigate]

Yep. I have be saved by Luke's daily so many times.

[woeful sun]

Is Waterbeavers playable on Update 7 at the moment? I'm trying to parse the files for timbertrees and finding a lot of stuff misnamed,

[radiant arch]

there's two mods: U6 and U7 on steam i believe

U7 version is fully playable

[woeful sun]

Whitepaws Faction U7 5.3.0 is what I'm trying

[radiant arch]

that's the new one, yeah

[woeful sun]

Do you need Rope for a bunch of stuff?

so Rope is defined in a file called GoodSpecification.Rope.json

[radiant arch]

and fibre is new too

that's what rope is made from

[woeful sun]

but my script is expecting Good.Rope.json

(because that's the new U7 name)

so I made it look for the old U6 names (with Specification),

and now it's complaining about ToolGroupSpecification.Waterpumps.original.json

because it's missing the ToolGroupSpec

(It only has a TimberApiToolGroupSpec)

ahhh,

found the bit that needed updating

[shell fiber]

it's my fault, attractions have a check box that force beavers to stay in the attraction until they have filled the bar entirely, what happened is the beaver was sick but didn't "flip" to contamiated yet (takes a couple of days) and that happened when it was visiting the library. except contaminated beavers have their needs disabled safe for the vital needs (food, drink, shelter etc).

so the game cannot figure out when to release the poor beaver, and since they're not allowed to die in the middle of an attraction... whelp whelp whelp...

[shell fiber]

fixed that now

[shell fiber]

i would need to rethink those eventually...

it just takes time™

[shell fiber]

ha ! i have a bullet proof answer to that : "i can't code" 😅

[shell fiber]

separate, it's not actual "research" it's just yet another A+B -> C recipe unfortunately

dear god, now that i think about it i woudl be in so much pain if the devs suddenly decide to implement a proper tech tree and research system 😓

[radiant arch]

best not encourage them 😉

[shell fiber]

update long, looooong overdue 🤐

[shell fiber]

what was the saying again ?
"it just takes time" 🤣
but i know about this, it's a simple but annoying thing to fix, and right now i really have no time to fix it 😓

[shell fiber]

berry multiplier 😉

[shell fiber]

not sure i understand the one that had vanished

[shell fiber]

sorry... i'm afraid my files are a mix of old an new with no sense nor reason begind it 😅

okay, i should be able to push a "many small fixes" update now

[radiant arch]

oh, right.. drills are post-ens now.. i forgot

makes total sense. just need to relearn it does require dirt trading now.

[cloud flax]

damn, i dont think i have ever crossed the 500 beavers mark.... i dont even know what to do with them.....

[stiff flint]

when in doubt employ more haulers

[cloud flax]

whaaa?? i didnt notice this!

[shell fiber]

rebalance is not fully complete yet

maybe i can make the medium mine provide dirt too

[cloud flax]

that actually as well makes sense....

[cloud flax]

i was actually thinking of creating an automatic tech tree builder and resource helper which scans through the recipe and building stats docs to sort of build a knowledge graph... but i wasnt able to find building specifications... and tons of redundunt specification of which i was not sure which are the actual one and which are old

[radiant arch]

not sure it's needed. considering how cheap the trade is and how many beavers you can feed from that alone

technically i not even need lotus now till i get past 300 beavers

[cloud flax]

you no make lotus tee??

[radiant arch]

do. but florist puts out decently much enough

and you can get 20 dirt per day from a single balloon

[cloud flax]

ooooh

[radiant arch]

if i remember correctly they only need a tea every other day and stew each 4th day. so it's really quite a lot that can be fed this way

[cloud flax]

man balloons allow for tons of bypassing of techtree

[radiant arch]

just medication and ens might be too much to supply without multiple balloons

[radiant arch]

in moderation i fear... no clockwork controllers..

still need that expensive tree nursery too to make pillows..

imho it's quite nice to have more purpose for those balloons and more alternatives when space / resources are limited (lotus). even post-airship maybe

[stiff flint]

I've been collecting solar panels from balloon trading.... I should be generating enough solar power to run a foundry by the time I can build a foundry....

[cloud flax]

woah just noticed that cooking house and mech cooking house all have almost same recipies... it was fun when they were sepearte and you had a reason to keep them for even in end game... esp good for large dams

now they are redundunt

[stiff flint]

having an option that functions without power is important

[cloud flax]

in the mid game only though. late game they got no use now

[radiant arch]

well, you can easily feed 500 with the non-power version. so there's basically only any use in the mechanized to save some 10% on fried rice or braised cabbage now

[cloud flax]

like almost every building has some relevance in late game. log gnawing for consistent saw dust, primitive iron works for crude saw blades. Primitive* paper mill somehow is useless... mushroom grower for bad shrooms, cooking tent for chips and stuff

florist just for the beauty of it. i just have it for aesthetic reasons lol

cooking house just plain old bland now in late game

[stiff flint]

my big logic block right now is trying to figure out when i can afford to stop producing science and start producing library books for the ENS.... it feels like a total pause on progression when i need to make 2k science and 200 books from the same building

[cloud flax]

make sure to have tons of paper, water and sawdust. creating library books was pretty fast with 10 beavers. now its gonna be like 1 full cycle . But again ENS no longer that necessary?

btw how do you use the aquifer pump??? what do we put it on?

[radiant arch]

i use food shortage to make the books inbetween.

[radiant arch]

not sure yet. likely only useful for big maps as alternative to mass-hauling water for irrigation

or dynamites

not sure there's many maps that really need it though

[cloud flax]

no like i cant even seem to place it on ground...

how should i place it?

[radiant arch]

it's a triangle upgrade?

[cloud flax]

nope...

[radiant arch]

hmm. it should work like that..

[stiff flint]

you need the block under the exit pipe to be at least 1 level lower

[radiant arch]

does it need a longer outlet?

[radiant arch]

that's inconvenient..

[stiff flint]

but it does let you choose the size of the area you're irrigating better.... you can fill a canal

[radiant arch]

yeah, it's an autonomous alternative to long channels and all

just you can't bath / shower in them

without extracting badwater first (fairly easy tbh)

[stiff flint]

canals.... with roads.... covered in platforms with power lines over speedy flooded roads

[cloud flax]

yeppppp... wow. the description needs to change to explain....

[cloud flax]

how do you do that??

[radiant arch]

put a badwater pump under / close to it

it's inefficient (10% or less) but should be able to keep up with a 0.25m³/s output

[stiff flint]

i'm seeing more reasons to build the washing machine

[astral valve]

Hi all, some of my water beavers gotten major burns, how do I heal them?

[stiff flint]

it was easier to keep my beavers out of the gunk that it was to wash them.... until now

[radiant arch]

clinics can make cures for that

but expensive: needs bamboo + ice blocks

so you might need to put a good amount of science points and some bamboo-pond into it

[astral valve]

Nice. I have a clinic. I also have bamboo so that's covered

Now just the ice blocks

Thank you

[stiff flint]

the skewer platforms are a lot more satisfying to use now.... i spend more time building than i do "fiddling" them into place

I've just noticed drills require robotic controllers from the ENS..... i'm trying to wrap my brain around how much extra time and labor goes into smelting scrap metal versus picking it up off the ground

[wary panther]

two medium mines (Coal + Iron) feeding two primitive smelters has been my colony's mainstay for quite a while.

But it certainly uses more workforce than picking up scrap, if you still have easy scrap to pick

[stiff flint]

the part that "hurts" is how much time i'm going to spend not spending science.... or using metal.... or doing anything until i've built the ENS

[radiant arch]

it can get 5-10 smelters if you want to provide for end-game stuff like abyss reactor in a timely fashion

[wary panther]

You're going to need some mines even end-game (for quartz, Salt, Saltpeter, etc) that drills don't provide

[radiant arch]

oh, wait. you can have the foundry just fine without the drills..

[wary panther]

So there's not really a reason to try and skip them

[radiant arch]

oh, mines for sure. just thought the drills where needed

when they might just be convenient really?

[wary panther]

They're just a lot more labor-efficient

10 beavers in the mine will get you 4 iron/h (well, 6/1.5h). The Drill does 10/h, with 400hp but no workers

[stiff flint]

i wasn't planning to do major terraforming projects to place temporary mines....

[radiant arch]

depending on well-being that should be ~10-12 (late) mid-game

[wary panther]

(but quite a supply chain to feed it drill bits)

and deal with the rock/dirt byproducts

[radiant arch]

you need a drill to feed the drill 😉

[wary panther]

I haven't gotten any drills going yet

[stiff flint]

i need the drills for dirt to get the advanced trees.... i don't have any reason to blast tunnels just to pick up dirt....

[radiant arch]

me neither, being a little low on science yet for the ENS.. wanted drills first (for dirt)

[wary panther]

you can trade with the ironteeth for the dirt too

[stiff flint]

i've got the drill bits.... i need the robotic controlers

[wary panther]

at least for getting a tree nursery

[radiant arch]

tree nursery is one cycle of balloon trading now, to get the dirt.

[wary panther]

if you want 1000s for terraforming, that's another matter

[radiant arch]

for a few it's not too unlikely

but making a gold bar might be a far fetch

[stiff flint]

i do not want to start using a mod to push the clock faster.... but the grind for the ENS is the first time I've wanted to

i'm at my limit on lumber, dirt and sunflower oil.... i can't raise my population without more farmland to feed them... i can't get more farmland without terraforming.... I'm playing on a flooded map with an island so there's an extra level of challenge going on that i'm enjoying.... i know all of the things i'm going to need to do to solve every problem i've got and the answer is watching beavers run around collecting things for a long time 🙂

mostly i didn't notice that trading for dirt went from optional to almost required

[radiant arch]

me neither.. would have invested into trading earlier if i knew..

[wary panther]

lapan did quite a bit of rebalancing, and I think part of the goal was to make the "trading" phase more significant and the ENS later

[radiant arch]

it's basically the only way left to unlock the tree nursery, isn't it?

can you unlock ENS without tree nursery too?

[wary panther]

I mean, it already was - you have to trade for the exotic seeds, unless I missed some other way to obtain those

[radiant arch]

true. and tree nursery was only required for later things. misremembered it like it was needed for ENS

[wary panther]

Now if I could just research a way to flip the zipline station. Somehow the door and wheel are always the opposite of what I want 🙃

[iron wind]

You can, but it cannot science without grapes.

[stiff flint]

i usually don't turn the ENS over to science until after I've gotten most of the PhD's i need from it anyway.... but that's also after I've got medical centers and trebuchet also generating science

[radiant arch]

i used to prefer the ENS for using much less water and food per science point. but it's late now with all the new options before it

[cloud flax]

@shell fiber some path connection issue around the factory

[still frigate]

You used to never be able to put a path in front of that exhaust pipe. Always had to build a double platform there.

Upgraded to 5.3.1. Time to see if all my skewers stayed. /laughs

EDIT: looks good. I don't see naything broken.

[stiff flint]

after I got my dirt from the Ironteeth I noticed they trade explosives... I'm much happier now

[still frigate]

I built fields and fields of sunflowers for dynamite production. Two dedicated screw presses for sunflower oil, and I think around 6 dynamite crafters.

Between dynamite and dirt, I really need to join the crowd and start looking at trading much earlier.