Water Beaver Overhaul

[radiant arch]

just putting the DLLs in the /Scripts folder of the plugin enables them during game

or 0.7/Scripts if versioned

oh, you need Harmony for the needs. but that should be a dependency already

[shell fiber]

should i have the asmdf file too ?

[radiant arch]

oh, unity..

if you have an asmdef already you can put them in a subfolder of that

if you put them in another folder they need their own asmdef

just remembered: asmdef must allow unsafe code

[radiant arch]

{
  "name": "Whitepaws.MoreWaterPatch",
  "autoReferenced": false,
  "allowUnsafeCode": true
}

is what it says above

"name" is what your DLL will be named as

all scripts in same folder or subfolders will go into that dll defined by the asmdef

[shell fiber]

so where should i put that ?

[radiant arch]

dlls must go into 'plugins'

for unity to find them

but i not know where to put them for unity to export them with mod hmmm

my brain.. sorry.. ehmm..

• either have DLLs in the exported mods Scripts folder.
• or have the actual scripts (.cs files) and an asmdef in unity mod Scripts folder

[shell fiber]

i have another idea

[radiant arch]

i not know unity well enough yet to know where to put things tbh..

[shell fiber]

what if i just put your scripts in my mod folder after unity build it ?

okay, le's try that

hmm...strange... i got 25 water out of 2 voxels 🤔

ah, no tried again and got 18

completely unrelated, but am i the only one who keep looking for dynamites in the 'house terraforming' tab ?

i feel there's just too much stuff in the 'path' tab

and the lido water dump used up 10 water to fill a voxel 🙂

perfect, thanks so much !

[radiant arch]

always confused for dams and dynamites

[shell fiber]

and the beavers seem to properly be faster in water 🙂

now let's rework those needs to positive benefits 🙂

[radiant arch]

even faster when fur is wet?

anyway: have a good time with the new ideas and gn

[shell fiber]

seems to be working great 😊

just added satchels

but they can't be made in the handicrafter, because they cost rope and rope is made in the handicrafter too

wait a second

so does sandals

well time for a seamstress building or something

[spring heath]

May I suggest “sewist”? I don’t even think it’s a real word tbh according to OED and Collins it is a word! but better than sewer and less clothes-related than tailor?

But then you don’t really sew shoes do you? And a cobbler only (historically) makes shoes

Hmmm

[radiant arch]

just looked at what things weight to figure out train capacities and... there's already stuff far too heavy to carry!!
so builders can carry 28, haulers 42, bots, 150:
claypot and small cauldron are 35 - each
anvil, gold bars, steel sawblades, chemistry sets(?), half-logs - all 50
giant log is 100 even!!
(being overburdened is possible, just lowers speed a lot)

also: metal scraps are 11 while blocks are only 5? (down from ~60 material going in)
i know this is from vanilla, but there the ratio is 22 to 5 only (or did they lower it to 1 scrap per metal even?).

rails certainly need to be heavy too.. like 20 the pair, being essentially logs wrapped in metal scraps.
and the default of 60 capacity per wagon is weird..
like 60 coal.. but only half a giant log??

how many giant logs should an upgraded train pull per wagon?

2? 3?

giving them 200 coal per wagon to carry would seem realistic, wouldn't it? (like 5 haulers; mabe 4 or less with their new equipment)

[radiant arch]

maybe 300 for the upgraded version (double bot haulers) while the small primitive first log only carries 50 similar to a hauler

and now i want them to visually show what's loaded and wagon models to dynamically switch depending on what's loaded too..

btw: there will be three different trains for early, mid and later game with increasing speed, capacity and wagon count

[radiant arch]

oh, btw²: a medium cauldron only weights 1, while a small cauldron is at 35 🙂

[shell fiber]

yeah, sorry, i know this is quite a clusterf***

but to be honest the weight property of items is mostly irrelevant since beavers rarely carry things up to capacity

but i could try to make some sense out of it

truth be told, I don't know exactly how heavy should a sequoia be 😅

nor an anvil, nor a log 😓

[radiant arch]

oh, the weight itself is fine imho. makes sense that anything at 50+ causes overburdened effect

and builders especially do carry up to capacity often. haulers too in some cases

not important anyway. just found it curious

[shell fiber]

yeah, don't worry i things don't make much sense, just do whatever you feel is a good fit to make the trains worth it

also i've been wondering, how does the train stations look like ? are they watertight / houses ? 😅

[radiant arch]

that's the sore point... need to make a bigger train yard soon!
for it's still the flat boring 3x2 lodge from choo choo. it's watertight, but tracks work like a water-tunnel. it's a dwelling of course..

planned to merge a triangle roof building, maybe the woodcutters, and add the train shed behind it. so it's 3x3 basically

oh, wait.. station.. i read 'yard'..

stations are same as choo choo - just some fenced planks with random goods on them. not like to be flooded.

as they technically work like a district crossing - that's fine, isn't it?

the one behind the train is the station

[shell fiber]

sure i guess.

oh, i see

yeah, they're just fine

i just added frosty pillows 🙂

oh no, i made an unforgivable mistake

they give +20% life expectancy, obviously

[radiant arch]

will there be a special storage for 'useful items'? (just curious; actually looking forward to pillow piles now!)

or a new 'consumable' category?

[shell fiber]

almost

fully equipped 🙂

[shell fiber]

thinking about it, but i want to play a bit more for now

[sullen cape]

Reminds me of the old buff system, potatoes used to be good for Folktails for some reason

[radiant arch]

hmm... redneck.. is that safe to stand there?

[shell fiber]

oh no, i'm homeless 😅

[shell fiber]

hollows offers some interesting possibilites with the flat roofed waterpump upgrades 🙂
definitely one of the best changes since i came up with these in the first place

[shell fiber]

(Although truth be told it was not entirely my idea)

[still frigate]

I was watching here for a notification of update and hadn't actually checked steam or the game. I had 3 updates pending, 2 from Lapan. 😛

I will go ahead and start a new map game to test early playability (with my normal WhitePaws set of mods anyway) of the new changes. 🙂

@radiant arch I did remember to download the updated version of your "mines" map for this.

[still frigate]

There was still a slight initial overflow, but it didn't even reach the stairs down, so I would call that solved. 🙂

@shell fiber You have changed some of the housing recipes, have you not? I don't remember this many starting things needing pine resin. Then again, my mind loves to play such tricks on me.

Anyway, it appears that one cannot have any haulers until they have pine resin. And again, maybe it was always like this?

[still frigate]

Ah ha! I am not imagining it. /laughs

But these didn't have haulers anyway.

[still frigate]

🤣

[still frigate]

@radiant arch What do -you- use these two holes for in -your- games?

My first time on this map I just covered them. This time I was thinking some explosives and storage towers.

Pit & ladder structures could go there as well, I suppose.

[woeful sun]

That looks perfectly shaped for the medium mine

[still frigate]

Yep. Wow. I totally missed that.

[woeful sun]

Yep

Normally you have to use a bunch of dynamite to make the right shape.

[still frigate]

8 sticks of lvl 4 is what I always do, then use ladders. Never actually made this config for going down.

[woeful sun]

That works if you have ladders unlocked already 😁

[still frigate]

Technicalities. 😛

Thank you, by the way.

[stiff flint]

are the water changes holding up?.... I'm running 6 pumps and I can't increase my water stored in tanks.... 45 beavers, 1 water dump with 1 beaver, library with 1, no other water use I can think of.

[stiff flint]

maybe i spoke to soon.... things are stabalizing

[spring heath]

tbf the billboard that taught me how to do it (as pictured, but layer by layer with single dynamite + stairs) is no longer available

[shell fiber]

i think pine resin has always been an early game requirement

the only things that don't require it is farms, waterpumps and the forester

so you can play on any map, and plant your own pines if there wasn't any

[shell fiber]

that seems a bit too perfect to be natural if you ask me, but i'm not a geologist

[shell fiber]

note that the water conversion rate affects the lido just as much as the water pumps (otherwise you could multiply water), so a water dump need effectively twice more water to keep its pond full.

been reworking the platforms

you can do this kind of monsstrosity, but it's more expensive

but there's a problem in that the cost is not refunded

[shell fiber]

For clarification, I converted the original overhang platform to a short skewer platform, I skewer-ified the corner overhang one. And made this wall mount platform anew undoing the old overhang model.

Since this I've doesn't go on the side of buildings, that allows me to simplify a bunch of other buildings that had awkward overhanging platforms that wouldn't visually fit with the "triangle" overhang

Specifically that also mean that some buildings will truly be their size, and not have a fake third level that exist solely to block the wrong tipe of platform from being build on top

For example the factory

[abstract vector]

[shell fiber]

After that I'll probably deprecate the old giant pillars to make it so they can't be put on platforms because that is an abomination 😅

Although now that I think about it, giant half logs stuck in cliff sides would make cool platforms 🤔

[abstract vector]

We need modded faction emotes imo

[shell fiber]

if i make those use the plain metal one, then i kind of have to make it cost metal beams, i can make it cost only scrapmetal by using the rusty metal texture, but i looks a bit dirty to me, so how about the yellow folktail painted metal ?

there's of course also the blue IT painted metal, and the pink WP one, but i honestly don't like them much

for the sake of argument : meeeeeeh 😑

[shell fiber]

those metal rings make it too busy visually though

[still frigate]

FWIW, I like them

[shell fiber]

meh

[shell fiber]

@ everyone : feel free to give me your opinion on the squewer platform color palette 😅
i haven't decided quite yet

.

okay, this is much better

Oh FFS where is my text ?

Goddamit

So again, basically the bottom ones want only ground, and the other ones can fit on it, and are self stackable

Don't poke at them too hard because those things are really held with duct tape 😅

[still frigate]

rusty or pink look best to me.

[shell fiber]

i just got an hopefully good idea 🤔

[still frigate]

I'm slow. Took me a few compares to spot the differnce. This one will look better IMO

[still frigate]

Solar! Water pump?

Filtering pump even

[shell fiber]

aquifer pump 🙂

[shell fiber]

trying rather unsucessfully to come up with a double tower upgrade 🤔

right now it's way too blocky

some fluff on the side could help

but i'm not sure this design is very promising 🤔

that's already better but...except a random terrace, what do i do with it ?

[stiff flint]

balloon launches?.... rooftop trebuchet?.... windmills?

[radiant arch]

swings?

[shell fiber]

I thought people would be more enthusiastic about the aquifer pump but oh well 😅

[radiant arch]

sorry, heat ate my enthusiasm 🫠

[radiant arch]

actually having it on top of a 2m levee would be awesome! especially triangle tops

[cloud flax]

I like the pink one. Just feels it will mesh well with other platforms and buildings and can build more better looking cohesive structures

[cloud flax]

Maybe bring back roof top terrace model here 👀

Same boost as the observation deck

[shell fiber]

Yeah it has the advantage of blending in quite well

[cloud flax]

Also both of the upgrades feel like storages. Top one as warehouse and the other one as a pile

[stiff flint]

The excitement for aquifer pumps is real... lack of water makes a lot of maps nearly unplayable

[radiant arch]

not like vanilla factions where you can win with a 0.5 strong source 🙂

i mean that as a compliment!

technically did finish with water beavers on a strength 2 source. albeit difficult.

actually excited how much easier it will be now with twice as much water and new dam options 🤔

[cloud flax]

Love the seamstress lodge! but is it supposed to clip into buildings? @shell fiber

[shell fiber]

No that's an error, I saw it yesterday. Will be fixed in the next update

[shell fiber]

Tbh I'm wondering if we shouldn't tone it down a tiny tiny bit, like 8 water per voxel, but we'll see

[cloud flax]

The main Colony

The Food Valley

The never Enough Water suckers

Buildings of the forgotten past

[shell fiber]

What's this map ? It seems really large

[still frigate]

On the contrary, I am quite excited about it!

[still frigate]

@radiant arch Why did you not activate this fountain? I did temporarily and it looked really cool.

(That's at strength 12, which is probably way too much for it.)

[radiant arch]

it's easy to change whenever

[radiant arch]

was left from testing some ideas around ice / snow. still trying to figure out what's possible with that, but vanilla is sadly very restrictive if you want lower parts grassy / red corruption and higher parts snowy / white corruption...

[still frigate]

White corruption? Not even heard of that. Is there a snow mod?

[radiant arch]

sadly not!

but it's easy to swap grass and corruption images technically and have it all white

just not transitioning it depending on height, what i would have liked for this map

[still frigate]

Well, to be fair, the game isn't mean for such heights by default. But it would still have been cool.

[still frigate]

@radiant arch I got to the other side.

[radiant arch]

@still frigate playing your map now. and it's you who needs to put in the labour 💪

[radiant arch]

is it intended for both handicrafter and seamstress to make balloons?

[radiant arch]

one i never understood: the builders lodge has +30% carrying capacity, while the p&l builders lodge has +200% (same as tower upgrades).

there's no difference in relative costs and either is unlocked from start. shouldn't the builders lodge give +200% too?

[radiant arch]

too bad water wheels can flood...

found a very nice underground stream to get huge amounts of flow energy out of, but no option to utilise it without flooding.. 😭

no plans for some turbine like power source? (primitive & early on?)

[radiant arch]

ehm.. killed my brambles i guess 🙃

tip: never kill your brambles!

[cloud flax]

@shell fiber can you increase the storage of raw materials in assembly line for parafait? it feels miniscule!

[shell fiber]

i probably had forgot to edit that a long time ago

[shell fiber]

well it seems to me that they both should be able to do it

[sullen cape]

Weren't they OP?

RIP large tanks

I promise I won't spam medium ones when I play modified hard 😇

[shell fiber]

that would be a cool thing to do indeed, but really not a priority for me. if an other mod wants to add that, sure

oh you just reminded me to fix the oversized water pump

and now that i think of it, the propeller for that building might just be ideal for a turbine-type power generation building.

[shell fiber]

oh the aquifer pumps will be mostly a way to irrigate land, not much of an actual source of drinking water

i think

[sullen cape]

Oh interesting

[shell fiber]

but maybe i'll also make a larger one that has more power at some point

[shell fiber]

florist to the rescue ?

[cloud flax]

oh how they gonna be better/different than the super fertilizer irrigation tower?

[radiant arch]

or three of them 🙂

[radiant arch]

that would be perfect imho. drinking source might seriously mess with the balance and choices, especially with dams and all

[shell fiber]

if straight up generates water

[shell fiber]

Eheh

[cloud flax]

oooooh inaugration celebration!

[shell fiber]

I think I explained a while ago, the greenhouse would allow plants to be planted even when not complete. To prevent that the build site (does not have the right occupancy for bananas) and the final building (plantable) are swapped upon completion using the tunnel script.

But the script also asks for an animation to play (usually dynamite), but I figured confetti would be better 😊

Also the aquifer pump will use that system but for a different reason

[radiant arch]

would that fix the water part of the abyss reactor too?

[radiant arch]

@still frigate those stairs being 1m too high was intentional? (right above starter location)

so far it's very nice to play. some tricky water management, but in a fun way. some badwater surprises, but nothing dangerous. only berries get kinda annoying at first haha
surprisingly always had far too much clean water to worry about anything.
first struggle was finding spots for the mines. and the lack of turbines to utilise the 5x-badwater channel..

[still frigate]

Yep. They can still be used if you wanna take the effort. I usually use them with a platform between the two you have marked to remove, and then platforms on the upper one. Finally I add one or two log stairs depending on the config I want there.

Turbines on this map would be great wouldn't they?

[shell fiber]

in fact, yes

i've spend a considerable amount of time on this junk

[cloud flax]

dafaq

hahahahahaha

[shell fiber]

it's not too awful if i make it shorter

[cloud flax]

fixed height or we can control it

[shell fiber]

i wanted to rework this building

originally i wanted the propeller thing to extend down and be animated which is possible

but if i want a frame of sorts to go down too, that's complicated

but realistically, how would this trash work ? let's assume it spin, water is pushed up... then what ?

the water in the environment will actually very much NOT be pushed up

[cloud flax]

i feel like much better option would be something like Archimedes screw pump?

[shell fiber]

which means the design is wrong at its core

oh 🤔

that's an interesting idea

[cloud flax]

you need a slanted propelor/screw for that though

[shell fiber]

but such mechanism is encased in a tube 🤔

[cloud flax]

can use screw press axels too

[shell fiber]

so visually that doesnt do much good

i also looked into the idea of making it work like a turbopump

[cloud flax]

oh need not be a full pipe, just like cut pipe in half vertically and place the half pipe below scre and water will get caught in that

[shell fiber]

true, but slanted pipe is not a possibility i'm afraid

[cloud flax]

something like this

okay

[shell fiber]

ah, actually well that would be doable

that's a completely different building design though

[cloud flax]

yep, sadly wont fit with the currrent one at all

[shell fiber]

hmm... my turbopump is not workable either, if the propeller only propels, then the water intake must be fixed

and to have it have variable depth it must be part of the pipe

i think in theory, if you have your archimedes screw spin fast enough, can't it also pump vertically ?

probably a factor of the viscosity of the liquid or something

[cloud flax]

and the friction between the surface of the screw and water

[radiant arch]

it can technically pump upwards, but efficiency would suffer given the total area exposed to the flow is less?

on the other hand: given a pipe it can increase pull and together it would work i suspect

[cloud flax]

if you slant it you are using the upward pushing force and not friction force.

other option might be to have a very fast spinning fan at the very top of the pipe which creates a suction force and pulls the water into the pipe

[shell fiber]

an other way to look at our problem : i'm not actually that attached to this pump design 🤔
i mean, it's literally a bot parts factory, flipped upside down, and with a bunch of barrels on top.

plus a propeller under it

the archimedes pump thing here kind of looks like it is part of a dam 🤔

which i like

[radiant arch]

me too: would like to use them like that!

too bad they can't be sluices on top or have a fixed amount of water going through

[shell fiber]

so i let's say i discard the building entirely, i make a larger thing that has its "dry" side on the "front", then a big dam wall, and behind that an archimedes screw 🤔

[cloud flax]

btw if the height of water increases above the screw, the screw would be kinda useless... water would already be at the intake level point....

also will have to think about how to supply power!!

[shell fiber]

hmm... good point yes

but that owuld be fine, the purpose is not acctually to pump water up, it's to have a water inlet that tolerate a range of water levels

[cloud flax]

also would game allow you to configure the depth of a slanting pipe?

[shell fiber]

my main concern is to balance it 🤔
this building exist mostly to provide a beaver-free water pumping solution

[shell fiber]

no but i can cheat

at some degree

the visuals and the actual building can be two completely different things, if you want them to

basically like the water cannon. it's just a water mover, but nothing says the output have to be within the building's volume.

well actually no, it needs to if you don't want the game to crash 😅

[radiant arch]

the screw can serve as energy source too? (like the buildings being self-sufficient?)

[shell fiber]

anyway, my idea for now would be maybe have somethign that you can graft on other watertight buildings 🤔

hmm... i don't know

maybe i should sleep on it see if some good idea pops into my head.

[cloud flax]

bots forgot how to walk 👀

which country are you from btw??

[shell fiber]

i'm from france 🙂

[shell fiber]

anyone else has this ?

[radiant arch]

not seen that yet. but surely would have missed it

[cloud flax]

so still not super late there yet

i'll see if i can find it happpening anywhere else too

seems like its happening when they come out of ziplines. once they go into a building the animation starts working again

[shell fiber]

ah, well, probably fine then

just before i go to sleep, the idea of a vacuum pump is also... probably workable 🤔

[radiant arch]

good night, lapan

[shell fiber]

GN !

[cloud flax]

night!!!

[stiff lily]

Any map recommendations for an initial Waterbeavers play through?

[shell fiber]

i think waterfalls was easy enough with plenty of dam-building opportunities

[stiff lily]

Ah I did waterfalls as one of my first maps forever ago. Probably worth revisiting it anyway given how much I’ve learned in the meantime 😁

[shell fiber]

othewise you can try lemon canyon (with the more plant mod)
it's a bit harder but made for this faction 🙂

[stiff lily]

I’ve seen a bit much of lemon canyon recently so want to try it on something else 😊

[shell fiber]

for what it's worth, i'm playtesting on hollows and it's pretty interesting

very hard on metal though, and berries are quite scarce

[radiant arch]

feedback on recent changes:

early game is much slower due to having more choices and taking time to explore them before going for factory
easily taking an extra 5-7 cycles just to set things up
this makes (1) crappy wheels much more interesting, (2) farming and water management more entertaining and (3) for a smoother experience, i.e. less rushing to industries
grew to like how many options there are now, that not depend on mining now!

with how early ziplines come into it there's so much more options to spread the colony too, which is super fun
also balances the well-being and hauling issues, as now things are much closer and likely to be covered without reducing working hours
liked the way the tree nursery and big farm need even more room now (might be a little tricky on some maps though to unlock full potential)

given the early additions my population is now easily 20-30% bigger than it used to be at this point. also about twice the farmland i guess.

for short: feels real nice

water-per-voxel is a huge help, but would agree it might be slightly high (like 8) as it might be a little easy to farm within a wide reservoir without worry about losing crops 🙂

still spammed ~300 storage early on, but not really increased it with now almost 200 beavers

actually might feel less need to go for ENS now, as there's so much going on already. also making around 90 science daily from library, likely able to up it to 200, gives access to mid-game buildings fairly fast.
and that's on buckets still as i not yet bothered to unlock badwater pumps

[radiant arch]

the floating zipline pylon: shouldn't it cost a balloon?

an issue with cranes: they randomly vanish while unfinished! edit seems to happen with cranes after build too.

can see the tile is blocked when i try and hover something else, but can't see nor click the crane (or manipulate priority / remove it)

[shell fiber]

it doesn't ?

[radiant arch]

not right now, no. thought it did a while ago

there's 10 clay in the costs though. maybe it's glued down?

edge-case: occupation of zip-tower over small zip-tower seems to be overly strict.
outgoing line will collide easily with the upgrade, while visually it's all fine
base-game problem is that it's not showing which part collides, so i can't adapt it easily either

does it not allow the line over the 'path' here? (front side seems to work fine)

setting the angle slightly upwards does no longer collide

beaver missed the line 😇

[radiant arch]

found a hidden entry on the paper mill (does not connect to path, but allows beavers to pass through like a crane)

[stiff flint]

I had an odd interaction with the Universal Power Shaft. it wouldn't connect to another shaft until after i destroyed and rebuilt the problem shaft.

i also ran into a situation where a set of farms dedicated to rice "needed" something similar to red cabbage. It's probably not worth the effort to add red rice or another aquatic plant.

[shell fiber]

how entirely sure how things are calculated tbh

[shell fiber]

yeah, i know about that, it's just a pain in the butt to fiix

[shell fiber]

the farm upgrade will always pester you with "nothing to do" unless you give it at least one red cabbage to watch over unfortunately. but you can plant it underwater, they won't actually do it but that might satisfy them.

[stiff flint]

nice, that does work

[shell fiber]

oh, i just thought of something 🤔

might change a bit things regarding the nuclear reactor

that tunnel building swap script really opens a lot of possiblities.

[shell fiber]

i added back the large farmhouse's zipline pylon upgrade

[radiant arch]

@still frigate finally dared to tap the big bad badwater stream! now 4x the outflow 🙂
(totally did explode 2m high when opened)
(gave 400hp from 4 crappy wheels 🎉)

surprisingly this is rather efficient still (barely 6 jails needed)

[radiant arch]

will the aquifer allow to use pollution resistance too?
for some maps i'm stuck with the small towers till end of game to apply those, which is a lot of homes

[still frigate]

Yeah, I really like playing with hidden water pressure. One of these days I'll probably make a map totally devoted to strange ways of hiding and storing a lot of water pressure.

[radiant arch]

actually, for your map, i use only a single source basically
stopped outflow from underground (took 3 levees and 2 dynamites)
stopped outflow from the source next to start and put a lido first thing ever
for convenience started using wheels on the river fed from the aqueduct

was a little tricky to plan out first few cycles. lots of temporary blocking the source (rolled 80% badtides..).

since i got the floodgate it's really lovely

oh, only problem: it burns through output from three red mushroom tents for pollution resistancing the irrigation towers 🙃

300 beavers, just got the factory unlocked and spamming alchemists and primitive workshops. nursery next

[still frigate]

I would make stacks of the large bad water collector. There would be a bad water collector than some 3x2x1 building, then a bad water collector, another 3x2 building and just stack them as high as I could with however deep the bad water was just to get enough.

[radiant arch]

oh, will likely use a single large one within the underground channel. with 3x output that's about twice what my buckets do now (can't use that up really yet)

actually planned out the spot with the first 2 gears haha. totally forgot about it

[still frigate]

I've had a couple of people comment that they didn't care for that map, but it is one of my favorites. Not my most exotic, but one of my favorites.

[radiant arch]

it's a really solid map with some fun twists

[still frigate]

Thanks. I'm glad you like it. To my knowledge, you're the only person besides me who's actually played it. /Laughs

[radiant arch]

actually even brings out many of the water manipulation feats of whitepaws

new learning from this: placing bucket posts next to pump arrays is really efficient to counter the contamination
(pumps can up a low 1-3% contamination to the 10s easily.. with my main farm and major roads running through the water that's nasty business!)

also: speed-up while swimming is really cool! almost like ziplines 🙂

too bad it not increases range too for farming

[shell fiber]

Hmm... Right now I'm fighting the tunnel script for the aquifer pump, it really wants to blow up whatever is at voxel (0:0) which is not ideal for an upgrade that sits on a farmhouse

[radiant arch]

you've been seen with some snacks sneaking through the forest

[radiant arch]

hmm.. adding rope to the ladder is a rather nasty soft-lock imho (in a good way)
there's so little rope before the bamboo .. and bamboo requires dirt first..
no way i could have skipped on sandals or satchels or way too many ziplines..

[stiff lily]

Having plant fibres only able to come from the florist with a very slow recipe (3x slower than the others) AND requires sunflower seeds seems particularly cruel

[radiant arch]

i kinda like it how it's not possible to have it all early on now and there's solid choices what to prioritise / delay till more advanced (late) options are unlocked

still tried to go with 'enough rope' and had to put an extra farm area, 5 florists and got to around 15 ropes per day. doable, but effort

first game i had to consider what to go for and how to utilise space this much. did have to delay things a lot too and still got no ENS and it's all so busy and complex already

[stiff lily]

I think having it in the florist makes the building somewhat useful rather than just being a dumping ground for extra materials or if you accidentally eradicate berries/brambles. But making the recipe require sunflower seeds seems harsh considering how much sunflower oil is a linchpin in a lot of food. I think the 12 hours is somewhat ok

[radiant arch]

there's a shortage of sunflower if you want more than some rope for building for sure
but i like that: once you unlock bamboo those sunflowers will be needed to feed other needs, so it's good to have some extra

also with later recipes the amount of actual food in the food gets lower and you can feed more beavers with the same area

[still frigate]

I never have enough sunflowers. /laughs

[radiant arch]

half my sunflower fields - the only ones fully harvested still...
having around 500 of those flowers to serve my 360 beavers, satchels and sandals included

rope: 60 plants (~15+ ropes/day, sandals, satchels, etc)
oil: 400+ plants (fried rice, crisps, alchemists)
food: 120 for cereal bars

actually might need another 100 ... hmm

using a better kitchen for fried rice would lessen need by ~40 plants too..

not expected that beavers still need almost 2 plants per head.. (~1.5 without rope)

anyone has a list of space needs for beavers? like how many cabbage, sunflower, rice etc plants per head?

[still frigate]

That would be really nice to have

[radiant arch]

it is a pain to make such a list...

#############
# Whitepaws #
# -Farming- #
#############

Number of plants per beaver and feeding method (without irrigation bonus).

Plus number of plants for industries.


-----------
# Cabbage    => 0.6 per beaver (start at 4!, 2 with braised cabbage, ..)

hunger        4.5 (4)    as sole food
braised       2.0        as sole food + mushrooms
cooking       0.6        filling all needs (more if hungry beyond needs)

*library      50-100     as kimchi
*ens          30-60      fried rice


-----------
# Berries    => 0.33 per beaver (start at 2!)

as need       1.0        without advanced recipes
              0.28       cereal bars
              0.25       as juice
parfait      +0.07

*library     up to 240   science


-----------
# Sunflower    => 0.6 per beaver (early 1! +200 for production)

as need       0.23       as seeds
*chips        0.17
*cerealbar    0.3        covers need
*friedrice    0.1        cooking tent
              0.09       cooking house

*fibre        +0.2       before bamboo

*alchemist               for each (depending on well-being bonus)
** nitro    20-60 plants
** tar      30-90 plants

*library    ~100         very early only
*ens        20-80        as fried rice

*bots, etc  ~100         recommended (not counted)
*drills     100-300      depends on use

[stiff flint]

for me the problems start around 300 pop when there simply isn't enough water on the map for drinking , irrigation, production, and keeping water plants growing.

I'm losing my lotus plants almost every dry season because I have to pump from their lake to satisfy thirst and that delays the entire water system refilling for 2-3 days until my mechanized pumps have enough depth to function

I've got all of the parts and pieces to add an abyssal reactor but I won't be able to maintain a population long enough to get the science to unlock it.

[radiant arch]

how about using a lido filled lake for the lotus?

or some floodgates

i truly know the troubles, as i often rely on reservoir for farming too and it collides a lot early on

[stiff flint]

it's probably something i'm doing inefficiently but this is the 3rd playthrough where i've run out of water before I can get late game stability

[radiant arch]

looking at foods is helpful too: some use huge amounts of water

or paper production.. or science..

there's so much that drains water that one would need a list too!

Here's part two of the foods:

-----------
# Chestnuts    => ~0.45 per beaver (+100 alcohol)

beer         0.05
cerealbar    0.18
stews        0.18

*alcohol     50-200        per distillery


-----------
# Rice       => ~0.37 per beaver (+80 alcohol / ens)

friedrice    0.1
cereal bar   0.18
sake         0.09

*alcohol     40-160       per distillery
*ens         20-80        for fried rice


-----------
# Peas       => 0.33 per beaver (+120 library)


friedrice    0.05        slow
             0.04        fast
stews        0.27

*library     80-240      pre-ens science


-----------
# Lemons      => 0.06 per beaver

-----------
# Lotus       => 0.16 + 0.24 per beaver (flower, nephs)

+150 plants per 200 methane daily

-----------
# Pumpkins    => 0.2 per beaver

-----------
# Grapes      => 0.13 per beaver +60-150 for ENS

[stiff flint]

that's what i'm working with right now is shutting down water using buildings to reduce population until i can start storing water again

i'll soon have hauler bots and that might help moving water from pumps to storage faster

[radiant arch]

btw: where is your wellbeing? did you know you can double / tripple pump output from higher wellbeing?

not like it helps with reservoirs, but filling up storage can be faster / need less workers, if you have high wellbeing

[stiff flint]

currently 54 i peaked at 60 a before i cut back on some of the water hungry foods

[radiant arch]

that's pretty good already!

did you try drinks?

they wont go for them first (sadly), but technically sake only need 1.76 water per day, while regular they need 2.13

[stiff flint]

i ran out of all drinkables on the last dry season.... the deathspiral has begun

[radiant arch]

sending part of the population to another district (to starve) can help to recover sometimes..

hope you can recover 🤞

[stiff flint]

i think i'm going to start searching maps again and go with a fresh colony later tonight

the new crafting items and pump configurations are really good.... taking that knowledge into the next colony feels better

[radiant arch]

hmm.. grapes give basically free drinking water (juice not needs water, but cures thirst)
never knew that was an option!
also: berry juice is the 2nd most efficient drink (1.2 water per day)
curiously even with GMO berries (1.7 water per day)

[radiant arch]

just doing the numbers.. a library can suck up 200 on slow mode, 500+ on fast mode, while ENS can go up 1000 units of water per day (netting 2k science points haha)

but again: who lets them run at full capacity?

library uses 3x as much water as ENS per science point 🤔

[stiff flint]

i treasure any source of science that does not come from the library or ENS

[radiant arch]

trebuchets only take around 1000 days to unlock the wonder

very viable option

[radiant arch]

#############
# Whitepaws #
# --Water-- #
#############


Daily need per beaver is between 3 and 5 units of water.

Having 100/ 200/ 400 daily for science (slow/fast/ENS) and another 100 to 200 for industries might be a good range.

# Storage & Pumps

10 day drought needs:

+ 1k for science + industries (pausing on demand)
+ 40 per beaver

So 200 beavers go with at 8k+ storage or 14x14x5m reservoir.

They need up to 25 regular pumps (wellbeing 0)
or around 10 regular / 7 upgraded pumps at wellbeing 40


-----------    
# Drinking    => ~2 per beaver

plain        2.13
lemonade     1.8
beer/tea     1.95
sake         1.8

juices
..berries    1.2     (1.7 with GMO berries)
..grapes     0!


-----------
# Foods        => +1 per beaver


mushrooms    0.03    (5x for slow method, 2.5x for GMO)
friedrice    0.06
             0.05
cerealbar    0.23
stews        0.65

*florist     too much! (for anything but fibre)
*GMO         some..


-----------
# Science    => depends..

*library
..slow        100-200      1.5 per science point
..fast        250-750      1.55 per science point
*ens          300-1000     0.5 per science point


----------
# Health    => ~0.05/b    (much less later on)

*balms        0.03
*sake         0.02


----------
# fun       => ~0.05 or less per day

comics        1.6
sandal        0.34*
satchel       0.6*


----------
# Pollution => up to 0.1 per beaver

*potions       2 per beaver??
*irrigation    1.2/d/tower

beware: irrigation takes up to 0.5 water per beaver per day

maybe giving a minor thirst relief to stews (0.1?) might be an option to lessen water needs?
not sure how this would feel in game though. just a random thought

[shell fiber]

i've been thinking about maybe having it require rice instead, since it's usually plentyfull.

[radiant arch]

i do seriously struggle with scaling rice... sunflowers are so much easier to spam with some minor irrigation (also use less water)

[shell fiber]

right now i have just two florists and one handicrafter dedicated to that, it seems to be enough for the rope ladders and bridges for the time being

[radiant arch]

feels about perfect as long as you not want to spam ziplines and have anyone use sandals etc from the start

[shell fiber]

main reason why you might want to get to clockwork farms 🙂

[radiant arch]

still did manage that using 1 farm dedicated to fibre seeds

and 6 florists

[shell fiber]

you monster 😅

[shell fiber]

i've considered multiplying every science cost after the ENS by 10 and making the ENS produce 10x more science just to force people to actually use it for science production (which i believe almost no one does) but that also means that activating the ENS effectively unlocks pretty much everything before it in no time 😓

[radiant arch]

ENS essentially outputs 4x library at a third of the water consumption. so it's efficient kindof

i always use it for anything it unlocks

[shell fiber]

yeah, but it requires complcated stuff

[radiant arch]

yeah..

tricky business balancing that..

[shell fiber]

eh, it's fine

[radiant arch]

there's so much stuff that's already slow to unlock in the 200-300 range

yet from the point I can go for ENS my farms and industries are up so much it's 2k science per cycle easily too.. so hmm..

there's certainly some mid-range things when it's getting easier to unlock with library. like ladders, most decorations and stuff

not sure it matters really which one to use for that time

[shell fiber]

fyi

this is fine now 🙂

[radiant arch]

finally! yay 🎉

i guess feeding 100 extra beavers with what ENS saves over library is plenty reason alone to switch.
and late science (abyss labs, robot farms, nuclear power) are okayish slow to unlock even with ENS. and ENS can only do science points half the time.

where it might feel off and favour library still is some edge-cases imho:

• bot assembler
• big badwater pump
• advanced sawmill
• centrifuge
• wine cellar
• drills
• abyss drills
• abyss gas extractor (why is this free??)

as in things that should come after ENS only, but are priced around late library levels

[shell fiber]

let me see :

• bot assembler 750
• big badwater pump 150
• advanced sawmill 500
• centrifuge 500
• wine cellar 200
• drills 250
• abyss drills 200
• abyss gas extractor 0

yeah, some of that could easily be a lot more expensive

i'm not sure about making the mechanical drills come later, because they are a mechanic's blueprint building, and required for the tree nursery

but in theory, they could indeed come into play later, if i give an other way to obtain dirt

oh, wait didn't i already do that ? 🤔

yeah, you can trade dirt with the balloons now

in that case it would make sense tech-wise to make the mech drill require a clockwork controller made in the ens

but then i would likely want to make them a bit more efficient, or burn through less drill bits

same for the large bad water pump

[radiant arch]

not really.. 15 every other day is no option to get 700 dirt for one tree nursery, is it?

[shell fiber]

i was thinking about also dropping a bunch of dirt in the tunnel plaftforms 🙂

[shell fiber]

in can increase that

[radiant arch]

i use the tunnels to build trebuchets early now 🙂

[radiant arch]

or both: slightly increase the trade and lower the need for the nursery?

not sure trading should be a serious option to make lotus?

[shell fiber]

uuh, good point

[shell fiber]

at this point i guess if you really want to short-circuit the farm for that, sure 😅

hmm... weird, i have a situation in which the rope stairs just...vanish

[radiant arch]

some plants did survive the drought 🙂

using same lake as reservoir & farmland certainly is nice since water has more units per voxel

[stiff lily]

Instead of it being from a single crop, could it be a gather mechanism that gives you the components to “spin” them into fibres? Like you can use farmers to collect the rice, but that just takes the edible part. You could then use gatherers to actually strip the rice plants of raw fibres that need to be spun into the thing that gets turned into rope eventually

Or the other way around. Farmers continue to pick the rice that removes the plant and gives rice; Gatherers collect the rice raw fibres and sends it to the florist to become plant fibres

[shell fiber]

Well that was also one option, but it's kind of clunky to manage when it actually comes to it. And I don't want fibers to be easy to mass produce early on, so we did that but using the giant bamboo

[stiff flint]

using the florists to produce flax has worked just fine.... i like having options to grow the population that are more ways then adding extra builders

it forces you to be prudent with rope use... but you can over come it by either planning ahead with storage or scaling up your population to support more jobs

[stiff lily]

That’s fair. I also shouldn’t knock it until I’ve tried it 😆

[radiant arch]

just realised it's much faster to remove a mountain blowing tunnels below than blowing it up from the top

[still frigate]

@radiant arch @crisp parcel (from both of whom I have borrowed heavily) and anyone else who wishes to give an opinion (or just vote)...

Is it better to start this flooded map
a) totally flooded
b) partially flooded
c) pre-flooded (with just enough water for plats to live)

The map in question is my new fish tank (still very much a WIP). I'm not even sure that this map is playable, to be totally honest. It is designed specifically for White Paws. Any other clan probably can't survive it.

It is shown in all 3 states plus dry. Even with a long drought this map will probably never be dry without a lot of beaver help. Some scrap, flora, and the starting position were added as I let it fill up.

Aside from survival, the player will have to figure out how to unblock enough drains and/or block enough water sources to be able to harvest the flooded underground ruins.

This "floating island" map is 101 x 66 x 111 with the highest pre-populated level being 81.

NOTE: this map was not designed zip-line friendly. But once the water levels are lowered, zip lines may be possible.

[crisp parcel]

I would say B. However, when I see the amount of water at that height, you should definitely test the performance ingame with ~50-100 beavers

[still frigate]

I built it on my laptop, which is much weaker than my PC. I'll do the initial playtest on my laptop as well.

Being water beavers, I expect it will easily cross 500 population.

[crisp parcel]

looks really cool so far, well done Nox!

[crisp parcel]

puh.. yea i am sure my pc would not do that 😄 hahah but i have an old one.
I am not sure with the performance but sometimes a lot of water... specially mixing water can lead to performance problems in some cases.. you need to test

[still frigate]

My CPU is over 10 years old. It is my weak link.

I'm about to run a few tests

I am both amused and distraught at what it decided to make for the auto-generate map preview. I'll take a real snapshot later. 😛

First dumb mistake: I didn't plant any pine in the starting area.

[radiant arch]

what happens on a badtide?

[still frigate]

No clue yet.

Doom and gloom I suspect. 😛

[radiant arch]

my first try working on the mines took around 60 days to recover from a badtide. but your approach looks like much much worse flow speeds

certainly want to test your C version for how quickly i can drain the middle section for my next game!

B looks far easier - there's plenty free space to use and infinite water

another idea: filling the cones with invisible pillars would make them 'impossible' to dig out. otherwise those might serve as farm space too

[still frigate]

There is plenty of space, but the water flow is so high it may be hard to use it without uncloging the drains.

[radiant arch]

no plugging the sources?

did have much fun with that on your other map

likely put 12 floodgates there now and plugged lots of things up

[still frigate]

Well, one can try. 😛

I didn't go out of my way to make them unpluggable, but it wont be easy either.

Not having pine threw me because no haulers. So that will be my first change.

[radiant arch]

it's cheap to plant them

just a delay of one cycle essentially

[still frigate]

Yeah, one one has cleared out enough space to do so. But it takes a long time to get the first batch.

There is a +240-ish regular water in one section alone and they are not placed easily blockable.

36 sources & 6.7 flow each.

[radiant arch]

perfection!

[still frigate]

One of the mixed good and bad things about my maps is that I make them challenging for me. Which means I thwart a lot of tricks to make it harder for myself.

There is zero scrap in the starting area and you'll die if you open up the map without an airlock building. So one has to mine and make scrap.

This is because I have done many WP games without ever making my own scrap. So now it is forced. 😛

@shell fiber isn't the only one who can be deliciously evil in their designs. 😉

[radiant arch]

you get one airlock from the cart - there's 2 gears to build a passthrough lodge

[still frigate]

Hmmm... well, that would do it.

Plenty of gears to scavenge from the ruins. What you need are metal fasteners.

[radiant arch]

fasteners for the tunnels, yeah. only very few of them available from the cart

and tunnels needs science too

hmm.. tricky 🙂

btw: your map perfectly does work without ever needing the foundry if you skip on the silicon

not even bothered with drills so far

[still frigate]

12 metal fasteners for pass-through loge. Tunnels aren't needed.

[radiant arch]

that's in the cart basically

there's a few scraps enough to make some tools or fasteners

but beavers will steal tools if you make few only

[still frigate]

I magnanimously gave one easy access to the rest of the map. But the water pressure on the other side of this is insane!

[radiant arch]

btw: been impressed by how your map utilises pressure. there's often much too much behind any small hole and if you widen that, it's twice the outflow suddenly!

got me good a few times

[still frigate]

The aqueduct one?

I --love-- pressure mechanics. I hope vanilla does a lot more with them.

Imagine the pressure behind that one little natural blockage with the entire second level filled and under pressure form all of the water sources. That 240-ish regular water isn't all. It was just part of it.

Because this is a water beavers map, I also was kind and gave a small badwater pool that can drain more than it creates. For SCIENCE!

Can't help thinking of the "She Blinded Me with Science" music video every time I say 'science.' Alternately, I sometimes think "stience" from Disenchanted, but I typo so often that most people would probably think it was just a typo unless I killed the joke by adding [sic] to it.

Similarly, 'mavity' instead of 'gravity' because of Dr. Who. 😛

[still frigate]

I think I need to tweak my ebb&flow settings. It run low a lot more than high.

[cloud flax]

all of them going on adventure together!

[cloud flax]

Metal fasteners are being imported into the building somehow.... my haulers are just taking fasteners from assembly line to the storage and back from storage back to assembly line. any clue what this might be due to @shell fiber

[radiant arch]

did a recipe change that requires fasteners for something in the assembly? sandals?

[cloud flax]

nope

i have been observing this for couple of cycles already. sandals are all made in the seamstree lodge

like theres no one rn in the building and they are still bringing it in and taking it out....

but it just might be that.... maybe a building is not supposed to have the same thing as input for another recipie that it itself makes? and the building is just confused?

[radiant arch]

i'd assume lapan put fasteners into the sandal recipe and it broke with the last update. but could be something worse

there've been similar problems way back when there was tools produced and consumed i believe

nothing you could do about it if that was the problem here..

you could try using the primitive workshop for fasteners till it is fixed

[stiff flint]

are you blasting tunnels? the scrap left over causes crazy fluctuations in metal fasteners when they're on the ground

[shell fiber]

Ah crap, I should have seen that risk

I'll try to push an update tomorrow because that can't stay like that

[shell fiber]

Yes, I forgot about it when making the turbo sandal recipe

But the seamstress is a large building, I can make it employ more beavers to produce faster 🤔

[cloud flax]

Not the twin tower but triple tower... maybe taller then even the unbelievably tall bamboos :P

[shell fiber]

I think people call that a commie block 😅

Or... "The line"

[cloud flax]

yeah. tbh currently 1 lodge each is enough for colony of 350-400 ish for me...

[still frigate]

@radiant arch A monsoon just wiped out 99% of my food production fields. All but 6-ish berries gone from the map.

[radiant arch]

too bad 🙂

(looks awesome)

[still frigate]

Oh, it is a great red & blue waterfall.

[radiant arch]

setting up emergency drains for monsoon is tricky, isn't it?

[still frigate]

yep. Only way I can protect against this one is an airlock building.

[radiant arch]

also: i usually only test up to 3 times 🤔

could try a -20 next to the doorway. might catch the worst

[still frigate]

I'm guessing this is monsoon PLUS ebb&flow effects

My normal drain AND my overflow were also automatically enhanced but it didn't save me. /laughs

I haven't had a good true game wipe in a long time. I'm gonna laugh my ass of if this is a TPK.

I love these sky water sources that Lapan came up with!

Using your medium mine layout I made a couple of pits. This one actually has a drain in it, "just in case."

[radiant arch]

currently i'm a fan of accessing mines from below - nothing like a good tunnel into it 🙂

[still frigate]

Yeah! I discovered that playing on your mines map.

Woot! 100% of my population is contaminated! LMAO

[radiant arch]

that's even more dramatic than the mines start!

a new strategy to make it more exciting?

[still frigate]

I think everyone will die unless I do a divine repopulation.

Yeah, they wont breed, man the pumps, or plow the fields while contaminated.

[radiant arch]

well, they will get dirty, refuse to work, and can't recover even if you find water and food in time

[still frigate]

Drinking water cleared up really fast.

[still frigate]

@radiant arch What do you think? Should I go into the map editor and move the little badwater canal down under everything else? It can still flood but if it does it wont wipe all the berries off the tiers above. /laughs

Or shall I leave it maximum dangerous like it is?

Eh, I'm gonna move it. I cut its strength in half and when the second monsoon hit it was just as devistating as it was the first one.

[calm coral]

How am I supposed to fight badtide? I cant find anything to redirect water when badtide hits... Except one customizable dam, but thats locked behind too much science, so Im usualy gone sooner than I can use it...

[cloud flax]

irrigation towers have ability to repel contamination and dont let beavers go into water. or build temporary diversion and remove it once bad tide is over untill you unlock the dam

[still frigate]

There is no diverting on this map. It is a fish tank and the player area is totally underwater.

(at lest at the start)

[cloud flax]

how do you even do it in the end??

where all are the water sources

and how come water is not flowing off the map

[still frigate]

Water sources are all over. One section alone has 36 plain water sources for over 240 strength.

The entire bottom of the map is lined with 0-strength water sources. That makes invisible walls around the map.

[cloud flax]

play that map after tunring off the bad tide then ☠️

[still frigate]

I normally do turn it off when playing white paws. But this is playtesting phase so I wanted it on.

And that wasn't even bad tide. That was just a regular monsoon.

[radiant arch]

by now i tend to enable badtides more often. but it's certainly recommendable to start this faction without them

@still frigate running an experiment with a 50x50 and 120 tall map to learn about pressure

the top spring is a compressed 106 outflow it says (after it did pass a -300 drain on the edges of that pipe)

on a single tile..

ebb&flow is weird in a good way, isn't it?

oops.. map crashed when i tried to place at 120 height.. wanted to measure how far it goes up (it at times doubled from what is in the pic)

[still frigate]

That looks cool.

I also use free flow so more will go though a hole, but it spreads faster so it doesn't go as high.

[radiant arch]

oh, meant free flow, yeah. seems to increase limits a lot on high columns

without it would likely reduce the outflow - wouldn't it?

[still frigate]

yeah. There is a limit to how much water can go through a hole. That is part of why there was so much force when you broke though my other map.

[radiant arch]

somehow there seem to be edge cases where you can go beyond those 10 it should limit it to

not sure it should make a 6m+ fountain that easily? (it's a 20m pipe compressing up to 276 source strength)

[still frigate]

I've had some climb to the upper map limit before free flow.

[still frigate]

Here's a plan... when I unlock the large badwater pump and place 2 of them stacked here, the bottom one will block the drain. I'll have to seal off the regular entrance and deal with some flooding/contamination while the pumps build, but it shouldn't be too bad. Should work really well.

[radiant arch]

i only use negative sources as drains, as the visual for those suck (it's invisible, can't be build on top)

[still frigate]

Yeah... I've been experimenting with both types... each has their good and bad. But for most cases I think I'm with you and just use a regular negative source,

[radiant arch]

fountain peaked at 150 outflow.. 11m column over outlet..

[still frigate]

Nice!

[radiant arch]

too bad i can't test for monsoon. need a bed

[still frigate]

Ah. Yeah. Rest well while I start test 3 with the new revisions I made. 😉

[radiant arch]

all the best for it! looks fun

[iron wind]

A group of whitepaws on an expedition got drunk one evening. When they awoke with terrible headache, not only was the expedition cart broken, they were on the top of a mountain and they could not figure out how they got there in the first place nor how to get down. Will they survive?

I decided to start over and this map seemed cool to try as the water beavers. But I need to make my way down from the top somehow (for brambles, possible mine locations and basically everything) and it is proving nearly impossible with only the log stair and crappy platforms. I might need to ladder lodge my way down, which seems like a really boring decision, and one that comes with a pretty steep population cost as well.

If only would Lapan grace us with a bit of rope in the starting inventory, a crane would come in handy 😅

[still frigate]

that looks like a build and delete strategy -might- get you down.

I would build two platforms next to the cliff near the waterfall. Then put a set of stairs on it. Use those stairs to build a platform, not at the end of the stairs but turned perpendicular to them. Once that platform is built then delete the stairs and rebuild them. Now facing the perpendicular direction and it looks like you might have to do that process twice to get all the way down. I haven't played that map in so long. I'm not 100% sure. And I've never played it with water beavers

[still frigate]

Since pictures usually help more than words for this kind of thing...

Yep... it worked. Spoilered in case you want to puzzle it out yourself.

I didn't even see that stupid discord popup! Arrgh. Ignore it. /laughs

Some maps I have made practically require a build & delete strategy.

[wary panther]

First whitepaws playthrough: does anything special stack on the hole in the library (like the pit and ladder lodgs stack on each other)?

(before I build it partially beneath an overhang...)

[still frigate]

It takes a bit of platforming, but I like to put the artist and copyist over that hole.

But nothing requires it as a base.

[wary panther]

Ok. I just found enough things that specifically stack as upgrades on a particular base to be suspicious of a particularly unusual hole.

[still frigate]

I was too at first.

I'm building my library right now, but I'll need to build up some science before I can unlock the platforms I mentioned.

[wary panther]

Yep, I'm definitely going to be quite constrained on getting enough science to get up the cliff face to metal before I run out of non-badtide cycles (playing on Hollows, which maybe wasn't the best choice for a first run)

Fun so far though 🙂

[still frigate]

There is an easier metal you don't have to build a tower to get to.

[wary panther]

but it's going to be quite a race between building enough pit&ladder lodges to climb the cliff, and being ready with the science points to exploit the new territory before everybody starves from all that new housing

gotta be a planned-out burst of growth

which will probably go terribly wrong anyway, given a faction I've never played before

but hey, "even more suffering" is the motto

[still frigate]

I'll spolier this. It is from my last hollows play. The metal I refer to is the top center of this snap.

I've harvested a lot of it by the time I took that.

That's not the easy one.

I'm tunred around.

[wary panther]

Hmm. That one is easier I (in terms of having ledges you can climb gradually)

but it's a long long ways across the map

[still frigate]

The easy on isn't showing on the snap.

[wary panther]

though I did already go halfway there to reach some early badwater

[still frigate]

I don't have a snap of the easier one. Sorry.

I did towers too, as you can see. 😛

Feels like years ago, but it was only june 6. /laughs

[stiff flint]

i wiggled a florist on to the top of the library.... looked really cool but it wasn't efficient

[shell fiber]

oof, this map is really hard, the complete lack of bad water early on is a real pain. better keep your population small and irrigate to make a large wood farm, then you can use it to build log stairs and crappy platforms to go down. might even need to put some random houses as support for stuff.

[shell fiber]

hmm... interesting, especially the large rice patch down there, on my playthrough i tried to put an irrigation lodge as fast as possible to protect it from badtides, that's my main source of berries now 🙂

[cloud flax]

the billboard!! the library of Propoganda 😈

[cloud flax]

opened the game after update and hand of soup and medium tanks are all trying to remove previous stock....

[cloud flax]

seamstress lodge still showing only 1 can be employed and not 3

[cloud flax]

figured it out! Lapan Changed the storage quantities!!!

[shell fiber]

Too much stock?

Ah yes 👍

[still frigate]

@shell fiber Running the new update. I'm on a new-ish game (early science stage) so I have no idea how the platform changes would affect my old monstrosities. The new ones look simpler... but more expensive. Still very doable.

[shell fiber]

yeah i had to rework the cost to fit the visuals, but i think backward compatibility should be fine. 🤔

[shell fiber]

well, next update then 😅

[still frigate]

I'm not too worried about it. I'd rather just rebuild if needed. 🙂

[stiff lily]

@shell fiber I've just been through the enUS localization and tidied up a whole bunch of things: spelling, grammar, extra spaces, etc. The only building I made an active change of the description to was the Fermentation House as it still says that it "looks after six barrels" rather than the 3 outside, insinuating that it was twice the capacity (which it once was but isn't anymore).
I've gone through it a couple of times and also within the game to make sure all the colours line up and look as expected. There's really only one thing left that kinda irks me a bit which is the inconsistent use of periods (".") at the end of description sentences/phrases. Some have it, some don't. I'm not sure what it should be, so I left it alone for now.
The easiest way to see the difference is doing a BeyondCompare or a CSV Diff as there are way too many to describe each one individually.

PS: It was also an amazing journey through the history of the Waterbeavers to see some of the older buildings and how things have developed over time! 😄 There's also some super creepy things in there 🤣

[shell fiber]

yeah, sorry it's a mess. sometime special characters get scrambled when i add some new entries, and by the time i notice it's too late to just revert to the previous file since who knows how long that was.

[shell fiber]

yeah, there is a bunch of weird stuff that i put it but eventually aborted, i should do some clean up but there is so many buildings that i'm never entirely sure things are actually used or not 😅

but thanks ! if you want to fix the forgot periods too, do what you feel is correct, i'm too happy to get help to complain about details 😅

[stiff lily]

Man you have nothing to apologise for. Your brain is an amazing place. But the vastness of the descriptions and flavour text in a non-native language is frankly impressive

[stiff lily]

I might go through and add the periods tomorrow 😂 I know most people don’t care or just don’t focus on it, but for some reason it’s the first things I see so I wanted to help rather than just complain 😊

[still frigate]

I have a totally selfish idea for a new building. A waterproof power pass-through building, specifically for passing power shafts to the other side of a dam. 😛

[stiff lily]

The Utility Dam?

[still frigate]

Close, but in my unique case I need something that has a flat top and no spillway. This is for my underwater map.

I'm definitely going to be making more underwater maps for the white paws. This is fun but damned hard.

[stiff lily]

Lapan is there a better way to suggest localization updates than just sending the whole csv? Feel like sometimes there’s going to be conflicts or other merge problems, but maybe I’m just over-complicating it

[still frigate]

There is one building that can already do this. The large badwater pump. I think it is the only one though.

[shell fiber]

is the power shaft mod from battery smooth fixed ? with the shaft bridges and underground shafts ?

[shell fiber]

uuh, if i were a smart person i would probably have a github for the project, or a google drive-synced thing maybe, i don't know how that works.

but thankfully i don't change stuff too often either, so occasionnally ping-pong-ing a csv file is often good enough

if i know someone is working on it, i can just hold off from adding things for a while

[stiff flint]

is there any way to know how much water depth a door can accept?.... trying to use the base layer of a dam is getting tricky while water is flowing over the top of the dam

[still frigate]

Does that work with white paws?! I have never tried it.

It hasn't been updated for U7

@shell fiber @stiff lily I was able to make the utility dam work, with adding its upgrade and modifying my map so there is a place tall enough to put it. /laughs

This is really inspiring my next underwater map and I haven't even finished playtesting this one. /laughs

[shell fiber]

nearly all blocky buildings should really not care, triangle buildings and water pumps will care a bit more while not upgraded🤔

[shell fiber]

used to work in U6

[still frigate]

There are complaints in steam that it has been abandoned.

[shell fiber]

last i heard from battery he seemed quite busy, i've send him a message to ask if he would like me to take it over

[still frigate]

Poor fellow. I know what that is like. When I tried to switch from a Windows admin to a Linux admin I had to give up any pretense at modding. Then Crusader Kings 2 became Crusader Kings 3 and I gave up trying to mod for it at all.

[still frigate]

@radiant arch Without free flow the column of water reaches the map ceiling. 111 levels total in this case.

With free flow you get a nice dome of water. Also with free flow I am generating enough water to cover the map... WITHOUT any invisible walls yet.

Constraining the center hole sent it back to the map ceiling. The four corner ones shoot up to level 69.

And one last shot. This is a 3x3 hole in the center. The 4 corners still hit 69. The center reaches 72.

[still frigate]

The sadness is real. --KOS

I just lost 6 hours of map making. I thought I had discoverd something cleaver. Rather than verifying it actually was cleaver and worked with a copy of the map, I was the dumb and tested it on the original. The map is corrupted and crashes on load.

Oh well. I'll make the next one better.

lesson learned: do NOT delete the invisible supports under a floating crystal. Everything looks okay until you try to load it back up.

<goes off to drink a bottle of scotch & diet coke then start again>

[iron wind]

Oof, that sucks!

[iron wind]

Sometimes it feels like he is still with us. The ol' Big Tank...

[iron wind]

And remember those stranded beavers? This is how they decided to go down the mountain.

[still frigate]

Looks neater than the solution I gave you did.

[cloud flax]

@shell fiber is there any particular reason why medium mines NO2 Production is almost comparable to the small mines? and not more efficient like coal and iron?

[cloud flax]

Time for BIIIIGGG BOOOM!

my laptop cried there for sure lol

[cloud flax]

hopefully this is enough water :P

[stiff flint]

can anybody see a reason i can't place this pump?.... it snaps into place nice and easy but won't shift green.

[still frigate]

The only thing weird I see is the road. Delete it and try to place the pump. If it works then add the road back.

[stiff flint]

no luck there

[polar wind]

Do i need to place a roof or what building is required?

The one that says you can build other buildings on top of it?
And of yes, how?

[stiff flint]

found the problem.... there was a tiny bit of path on top of the pump (this was not visible in the first pic)

[stiff flint]

placing a small tower and a peaked roof next to each other like the first pic and you can place one of the large towers on top of them

[polar wind]

[shell fiber]

Well in principle you shouldn't need that much 😅

[shell fiber]

trying to get the tech tree in order... both on paper and in my head 😅

still a bit messy for now

[shell fiber]

Found out a whole new crash

[still frigate]

Achievement earned? 😉

[radiant arch]

Oh, lapan, after your remark on science production i paid closer attention to mine. Depending on brambles area it can go at 200-500 daily for the library, which is somewhat ridiculous in relation to cost of things pre-ens i fear.

[still frigate]

I never got numbers like that!

[radiant arch]

Taking it slow with the ens and only at half capacity (limited brambles) got me 7k extra points by the time ens was build. And basically anything pre-ens unlocked

Not sure i would ever have needed the ens for science points, if it only took 100 days with library (possibly only 70 at top capacity) to unlock the wonder

[still frigate]

I usually lock my 2-3 ENS into making degrees.

[radiant arch]

the benefits of 40 wellbeing is tripled production speed. thus 4 science per 0.4 hours translates to 480 points per day. Possible to get to 640 with max wellbeing technically

Getting 40 wellbeing is fairly easy by the point ens is unlocked

[still frigate]

Says you! 😛

[radiant arch]

So.. well.. if you want the ens to matter for more than cut in costs (huge already) and degrees, limiting the number of library workers might be one option. Like 4 might be fine too with lowered time for scrolls and books.
Or increasing science cost by 10 for anything post-ens and setting ens output like 2 or 4 times as high. Or that would be my take.

[still frigate]

I really struggle to keep my happiness high enough.

[still frigate]

Making ENS needed for deluxe stew would be good enough, I think.

[radiant arch]

why? let them gather in one feeding spot, add a few decorations, bath tower and if needed some entertainment.

[radiant arch]

Yeah. Or making the science cost higher.

[still frigate]

My nature is decentrialization and redundancy.

[radiant arch]

That's solid approach too

[still frigate]

less efficient, more resilient.

[radiant arch]

Just more expensive to keep on high wellbeing

tbh with ziplines it's so much more efficient now

I tend to cover all passive needs with just decorating the most frequented zipline station and they are all happy

And they have so much more time to reach and use entertainment too

[still frigate]

Some day I'll be better at it.

[radiant arch]

Well, you can easily and cheaply build s second of third library as well and it's all fine too

Having a really big population is fun too

i just might be too fixated on winning diorama with less than 300 beavers

[still frigate]

I agree, my laptop and PC don't. 😛

[radiant arch]

hmm, a fully utilised ens technically could reach 3k science points daily by now... mine usually only has 1k..

@still frigate with your approach would you struggle with science points? do you use ens for them at all?

[still frigate]

no

I do the multiple libraries with fast science foods

[radiant arch]

GMO for brambles?

Isnt that limiting most? Or water?

[still frigate]

fields and fields of non-cultivated domesticated brambles harvested in a checkerboard with my (patent pending) deforester combo. 😛

[radiant arch]

awesome!

[still frigate]

I came up with that before I knew what the GMO could do.

[radiant arch]

Maybe library isn't inefficient enough despite massive brambles and water needs haha

[still frigate]

Hell, before I knew about domesticated brambles even. I originally did it all with wild brambles.

[radiant arch]

me too! been times..

Only discovered more efficient means when trying to survive small maps

[still frigate]

You have helped me more than anyone on knowing what -can-be done.

[radiant arch]

I love to exchange those different ideas! Learned a lot from you too and on maps and making them more fun!

Can't wait to get home and try on the pillar some more and see what can be done with vertical designs..

I want to learn how to make it have more options, like real choices, limited start and so. I feel like mine are too straight/ guiding and kinda boring to play midgame..

your channels had some fun elements to force me to plan out and actually do some water engineering. still has room to replay and try differently. really liked that

[still frigate]

I'm working on one with all kinds of choices on how to do it. Think of my last one, but with several pockets that each have to have stuff done to them in order to eventually unlock the bottom where all the goodies are. Order doesn't matter and maybe one of them might even be skipable. Still a WIP.

[radiant arch]

What would you say a good start needs in terms of spacing? Or other way round: how many beavers should it allow for you? Or how much scrap metal actually?

Before forced to explore other areas

[still frigate]

what clan? That matters... a lot!

With water beavers i quickly ran out of space for food.

But they can make their own metal easily enough.

[radiant arch]

So it should have plenty metal before abyss for other clans?

You'd say 200 beavers is too few to reach drills?

maybe i should play some vanilla faction again for testing... 15 cycles to wonder is a super quick game anyway.. 🥱

oh, wait, do vanilla clans have anything like the passthrough lodge???

[still frigate]

vanilla, no. Not that I know of.

[radiant arch]

aren't they so doomed on your map too?

[still frigate]

yes. It is a white paws map. I even said so somehwere. 😛

[radiant arch]

tbh, 2k points for unlocking ens itself isn't really that much difference from most things after it.
than again needing around 2 cycles to unlock the wonder with a decently utilised ens is fine imho (technically might unlock all there is within 50 days with ens rn, including 17 days for the wonder, at max speed).

[still frigate]

I should do the wonde at least once... someday.

[radiant arch]

highly recommend a small map for it 😇

[still frigate]

Do elaborate. That goes against my instincts.

[radiant arch]

as in a map where the wonder can cover most of the population

It's so much more rewarding to launch

my idea for my new map was around making the wonder rewarding!

(and forcing vertical travel)

[still frigate]

ah! gotcha

[radiant arch]

did you notice beavers go at 3x speed if under water?

[still frigate]

nice

[radiant arch]

I want to utilise that on flooded stairs and ladder shafts

[still frigate]

I didn't know that was fixed.

[radiant arch]

Might be fun to exploit on your map too

[cloud flax]

WTH is the wonder!!!!!!!!

this is where my wonder is btw.... you can probably guess happened......

[still frigate]

WOW

[cloud flax]

oh this colony has tons of hidden gems that i have made ;)

i made that huge ass under mountain reservoir so that i can build that wonder werever i want close to ground.... now i need to make it as far away as possible....

[shell fiber]

That's kind of what I had in mind at first, but maybe slowing down the library science (by making each recipe loop take more time) is also an option 🤔

[shell fiber]

Already on the process of doing that, next update 😉

[shell fiber]

But it's still quite expensive early on...
Maybe the problem is the efficient science recipe is too efficient 🤔

[radiant arch]

maybe a little

the spread between early partial utilisation (which is nice, almost slow) and using it at full capacity (+200% worker bonus) is far too wide

imho cutting the low end would feel wrong, it's more about having too much room up with it and too easily getting to triple capacity (if there is infinite brambles)

on maps with limited brambles (or very limited water) it's hard and slow going with the library - well.. till unlocking the tree nursery

[radiant arch]

the efficient recipe already uses more water per science point (alcohol). increasing costs i would fear would make things harder in other ways. likely same for food. reducing speed or workers might be less side effects on other areas? (would leave the good balance at early stages too)

[still frigate]

A question I have been asking myself: can the white paws survive my contaminated map that has no player accessible clean water (it is underground without easy access). The starting area water is at around 26% contaminated.

Originally, I said it was not even possible. However, I could be wrong. So I decided to give it a try for a little bit while taking a break from some of my other in-game projects.

Water beavers are at an additional disadvantage on this map to any other clan. When I created it, I used a lot of birch trees. That means there are a lot of brambles and not a lot of wood in the starting area.

And since I was feeling really evil when I made this map, what good water there is underground in the starting area borders a bad water source and there isn't room to cap it.

[still frigate]

no.river.bath

I didn't plan for that. Hope it isn't too late.

And they are starving.

I was right the first time. WhitePaws failed to survive the map. No river bath, no haulers for the tubs, and not enough food.

@shell fiber How long is the crappy cart supposed to provide clean fur and for how many beavers? 7 of my 9 are dirty and wont work.

[radiant arch]

only the 2 builders

going with either a 0.1 or less source, or going with a pre filled hole, like 2x2x2 of water that lasts till evaporated might be needed with water beavers. they can go with lido after or leaky bath

did go with something similar for early badwater: enough to bucket limited library science, but not utilise a pump

[shell fiber]

Only beavers who are 'inside' it. IE the two builders when they are idle 😅

[shell fiber]

Simple showers not working ?

[still frigate]

No haulers to fill them.

[shell fiber]

No not tank showers, just showers, with a pipe down the river like a pump

I didn't remove them did i ?

[still frigate]

Do they work over 25% badwater

[shell fiber]

I think the threshold is 50% but not sure

This is based game behaviour

[still frigate]

Not sure. I'd have to load into water beavers to check.

[radiant arch]

it's like 10 or less if i remember correctly from last game

[still frigate]

If so they wouldn't work. No place on the map has water that clean.

[radiant arch]

got mine stopped by badwater contamination real easily with pumping too much

[still frigate]

Contamination is 26%

(in dev mode to keep the colony alive to test)

I manifested a lodge so I had a hauler and they did eventually fill the tubs and the beavers got clean.

I haven't even reached the pines in the start area to have begun collecting pine resin.

Cycle 1 - day 17. smh

It is a cruel map.

It's not unplayable. Just maybe not with WhitePaws.

I'm having a pretty decent run at the same map with LeafCoats.

I may try WhitePaws on the map again from scratch. Focus on getting tubs up and a hauler somehow.

[shell fiber]

i have zero remorse 😇

[wary panther]

The fast movement speeds when swimming are a fun difference, and encourage building transportation along rivers. But it's kind of tedious to have to go through and delete road segments to cut these routes off during badtide (and worse, find all the spots to put them back after). At least when deleting them the path-distance highlighting makes it obvious if a segment is still connected somewhere). If you miss putting one back, it just eventually shows up as the logistics being a mess...

So - Quality-of-life item suggestion: I wonder if one could implement a "traffic cone" type item that you could place on top of a path (or stair)? that would block the navigation? And have this as a "freebie" like placing paths is?

or maybe it could even be a (science locked?) version of the wooden gate, that had an open/closed toggle.

maybe it could even just respond with "blocked by contamination" and become impassible if the square it's built on is in contaminated water (like showers/lidos turn themselves off...)

something other than deleting/rebuilding roads/stairs, which seems inelegant

I guess in later game the ziplines will give a similar fast-travel above the water, but I do like the flavor of engaging with water more and having swim highways

[radiant arch]

traffic signs for one-way or clean-water-only would be fun indeed!

properly better idea to make it into a new mod though

it's technically possible to do a 'building' that contains a path that could do that i believe

[wary panther]

Or maybe even a path variation (costs rope?) that looks like a swim lane, and is blocked by contamination.

[heavy lodge]

without reverting to limit the range on path ? I don't think so.

[wary panther]

not sure what's possible technically, but that would be fun and a rope cost to build would unlock it at a sensible point in the tech tree

[heavy lodge]

One way path and drive on right on bidirectional path will be nice, but also will be CPU killers 😢

[wary panther]

Yeah, but I was hoping a conditional "do not pass" shouldn't be any worse on CPU than just inserting/deleting path segments is. Just less tedious at season change

[heavy lodge]

You can use this mod : https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3493733195

[still frigate]

Wrong channel. Sorry. (deleted)

[wary panther]

OK, that's close. Though it would need a Whitepaws blueprint and having it work to block water is probably too powerful (not allowing normal cheap levees/floodgates is part of the water beavers intended suffering...). But it has the code to block a path and auto-close. Maybe luke would take a PR tweaking it for whitepaws compatibility (and I assume the "blocks water" behavior could be made different by faction, since it looks like older versions used to not block water)

Thanks for the pointer!

[still frigate]

Beaver swimming through bad water when you don't want them to has been an issue with this game since... badwater was introduced.

Oh, I have battled that one.

[radiant arch]

had 20ish beavers in jail constantly for farming in 5% contaminated reservoir last game 🙂

if you somewhat plan out routes and get a beaver washer early it get's managable imho

[wary panther]

Sure. But most factions contamination is kind of a death sentence (the cures are so slow...) - so you just build bridges. This one seems to encourage a closer engagement with the badwater, because it's more a fixable annoyance.

[heavy lodge]

good that jail don't work in water, or we could have all beavers in jail during emergency and not consuming any resources 🤣

[radiant arch]

surely much more options, yeah. been running out a small badwater pump capability for pollution resistance potions once

[wary panther]

"we're locking you idiots up for your own safety"

(and our own sanity)

[radiant arch]

did you know the washer can contaminate beavers? like it's washing them clean and gives them 10% back haha (if water isn't pure)

[still frigate]

I shall now consider myself traumatized.

[wary panther]

Actually... for even more flavor, I wonder if it should be a "special item" locked behind trade with the Ironteeth (like Folktails have the "Exotic Seeds", AmpEars "solar cells"), etc. I.e. it really is a repurposed floodgate... and the whitepaws just didn't understand that it was meant for use in the water.

[radiant arch]

what happened?

[still frigate]

This. 😛

[radiant arch]

it's really only 1 or 2 hours extra. if it's close they'll fetch another potion or say bye to jail. it's nothing big

[still frigate]

@shell fiber side note:

thank you for NOT being anti-alcohol!!!

That is a cultural shift I can't/wont cope with.

[radiant arch]

i broke free flow... there's a setup that will freeze it at certain height 😅

it's pushing up real strong, breaking on a cross shaped wall, pushing down and blowing bubbles 🙂

it's creeping up after fixing some walls.. but at snail's pace

[radiant arch]

fixed, yet not sure not sure..

[slim junco]

@storm gulch look who popped up in my S7 game! 👍

[storm gulch]

Oh hi there

[slim junco]

#BeaverFamous

[still frigate]

@shell fiber Well, I tried my hell map again. This time I am partially setup to be able to survive... if my beavers don't starve.

One shower, using lido water filtered from the contaminated river, which is also shared with a clay pit. All of it in a building-lined "pond".

[shell fiber]

yeah, it's also happening on my playthrough, but to be honest i think it's just a lot easier to wait intil you have defeated badtides entirely with floodgate dams to start using rivers as highways 🤔

[shell fiber]

unfortunately paths are not affected by anything, without code at least

[wary panther]

I'm not sure defeating them entirely is ever in the cards for Hollows. Too many artesian springs that just flow out of a hole in the cliffside, with no real path anywhere else.

even with sluices I think you're living with them, just with some control over what path it takes through the city

And whitepaws don't get sluices

So they have to live with it to a much greater degree (and of course they deal with treating contamination much more often, but also much more effectively, than the stock factions)

And Luke's gate mod seems to have the necessary code to "turn off" a path (though affected by season rather than by contamination)

So that had me thinking about what approaches feel like the fit with the theme and leave it as an occasional and manageable disruption, rather than just trying to dump it off the map.

OTOH I'm only just getting into the first blueprints on my first whitepaws playthrough, so there is lots more tech tree yet to explore

I'm really enjoying how much deeper the tech/supply chains go in this faction

[shell fiber]

ahah, no worries 🙂

to be honest i don't even like alchohol, and i mildly dislike the mentality of "getting drunk = fun" because i don't see how making a fool of yourself is fun, although i can admit that looking at someone drunk can be mildly funny. but at the end of the day it's moderately harmless and i'm not here to tell people how to live their lives.

i don't understand american mentality of grouping it all under "substances" as if a glass of wine was as bad as snorting cocaine, for me alcohol is just an other way to mangle raw ingredients into new interesting tastes. It's basically a weird form of cooking to me, and you know how french people are 😉

also just to specify again, i kwow "bad shrooms" and "brain boosting salts" probably look like beaver drugs, but that's not meant as a stand-in for pot or anything harder, i think of it as actual medication that literally makes them smarter. and sometimes sick because come on, this thing is refined in a crap lab by an untrained beaver, what did you expect 😅

[shell fiber]

that's what i call a compact and efficient set-up

but one shower can only get you so far, it's going to be difficult scalign up maybe

[still frigate]

Hrmmmm. I called it desperation. /laughs.

[still frigate]

I've scaled up. Still worried about food. Not sure how I am gonna be able to do adequate rice on this map.

[shell fiber]

you can use plafroms and tunnels to open up the roof of the water sources, and after that it's possible to place floodgate dams that completely seal up the cavern during bad tides. problem is that it's going to be full of polluted water when you open it again, but that will be a relatively small amount of bad water, easily diluted.

[radiant arch]

drains get 0'd on drought it seems.. bug or feature?

[radiant arch]

rush to clockwork farming?

[still frigate]

I just got a library up and a few things unlocked.

Rush for water canons though!

[radiant arch]

i always forget about those till far too late into the game

[still frigate]

This map NEEDS them.

[radiant arch]

those cannons really can change a lot

was the drain 0'ng a problem with your submerged map too?
combined with a pressurised pipe it seems kinda.. deadly..

[still frigate]

not really. At least not in the pocket I was in.

[radiant arch]

utility dam is buggy: the shaft actually connects the visual doors
path does not connect to either it seems

[still frigate]

I was only messing with the shaft

Now I just have to keep it filled with clean water.

2 45° canons are a go. But I'm falling asleep. Laterz

[shell fiber]

Upgraded ?

[radiant arch]

missed the update. was 5.2.7 still

[shell fiber]

Probably still broken though 😅

But good news : I fixed the aquifer pump crash 🎉

Now confetti will not be the last thing beavers see before their whole universe collapse on itself 😅

[radiant arch]

not allowed 🙁 would be cool to stack more pumps on top 🙂

works with small lodge between. also pumps reach exact same layer

being able to build this is pretty cool!

[still frigate]

I crossed the streams and the world did not blow up! 😛

[shell fiber]

I think florist / wineries are ideal for that 😉

[radiant arch]

the wonder has a nice coverage
even if put at the very edge of the map

[radiant arch]

the corner floor of floodgates appears to be waterproof.
is this intended?

[shell fiber]

uuuh.... i didn't think about that so much 🤔

i guess it shouldn't ?

[still frigate]

At one point you said to me dams should not prevent water from going down.

[shell fiber]

also, different topic, but i found out blender had a "spiral" modifier which is pretty neat :

[shell fiber]

well, remind me if i forget again then 😅

or... i can fix it right now

[still frigate]

I didn't necessarily agree, but I wasn't gonna argue with you about it. 😛

[shell fiber]

that should be "the great dam"

[radiant arch]

i would prefer if it matched the visual (and dam behaviour)

[radiant arch]

using giant log pillars, clay and resin?

[shell fiber]

Probably fairly normal construction costs save for the giant logs

[radiant arch]

@still frigate just came up with a mean design:
no badwater source accessible at all
only way to get science is to filter out badwater from badtides
badtides will contaminate the only available reservoir (10-30%)

you think that could be fun to play? (i might overthink it rn. but i might like to be mean and force badtides on)

[shell fiber]

Probably a lot of planks for 2 huge Archimedes screws going behind

[still frigate]

It would definitely slow things down and make one want to build a badwater reservoir.

[shell fiber]

Not sure, that's basically like paying that terrace map, there's no bad water available anywhere close to start. You could wait for a bad tide but maybe it won't come until cycle 7 or 10

(I think the map was "terraces")

[radiant arch]

7 to 10 is far too long to go without science.. hmm..

thanks for the feedback

[still frigate]

What you -could- do would be to make the bad water super-weak. Like 0.005 flow.

[shell fiber]

Maybe you can get it to work with a source that gives a trickle of bad water, like 0.1 CMS and that almost immediately mixes with farmore clean water?

[shell fiber]

Great minds think alike ,😅

[still frigate]

That works nicely. I do the reverse in my hell map.

[shell fiber]

Btw, should I make my aquifer pump output pure water, or mildly dirty?
Of course the point is to provide irrigation, so it can't be too dirty either 🤔

[still frigate]

I'd say clean. The only dirty is badwater and that kills plants at such low levels.

[radiant arch]

depends on how much is coming out

if it is enough to fill something, i'd say 3-5% sounds fun
showers&co are blocked from 5% onwards

makes it tricky to pump water out of it without consequences

plants usually seem happy with 20% still

[stiff flint]

Dumping a small quantity of bad water is created in inventory... if it isn't carried away the irrigation stops until the inventory is cleared.

Similar to saw dust piling up in lumber mills

[iron wind]

Speaking of the Terraces map - badwater reached at the end of cycle 5 (kind of 😄 ) But I do not mind slower start.

Almost got wiped out when monsoon flooded all my fields, but that one is on me for having it on 😅

[still frigate]

I went ahead and turned custom weather off for my hell map run. I failed it with WhitePaws my first try. Doing pretty good this second attempt, but slow.

[iron wind]

Btw. the Double rope stairs are great, easp. when the map has many 2 high steps. But is it intentional that beavers refuse to build them unless they have access to the bottom construction spot?

[wary panther]

Dunno, but I bet you can just use the rapelling crane to get them enough reach to access the bottom spot...

that's one of this mod's best additions

[wary panther]

Maybe a bug (or at least me not understanding how this works - fancy blueprints sitting in the input stock of the Copyist lodge don't show in the inventory bar at the top, and the builders don't seem to be able to come get them from there either. Are we really supposed to build 31 scroll display warehouses to hold each type?

[still frigate]

You need scroll cases

[wary panther]

ones at the artist seem to show up in inventory as accessible

[still frigate]

LOTS of them. Around 21

[wary panther]

Ok. They're cheap enough, just seemed like an awkeard thing when you will usually not have more than a couple of each type

[still frigate]

yep. I spend probably 20 minutes each game laying out my scroll cases. /laughs

[wary panther]

but not hard to make a little maze of scroll cases

probably next to the library for theme 🙂

[still frigate]

yep. On top. One row from normal, one row for fancy. Is how I do it.

[wary panther]

why would you keep normal ones (except in transit from the copyist to the artist)? I hadn't seen anything that uses normal ones...

[still frigate]

So they have a place to go when you haven't had the artist process them. Just how -I- play.

Might not need it at all. /laughs

[wary panther]

OK

This is my first whitepaws playthrough, just checking that I wasn't messing myself up by just letting the artist finish 🙂

though I guess it would be pretty trivial, since you could just send a fancy one back to the copyist to get boring copies

[still frigate]

Which is how you duplciate frequently needed ones.

[wary panther]

yep

that's why I didn't figure there was any need to build scroll cases (except to import between districts, like the scroll case description suggests)

[still frigate]

You will want the fancy ones for sure

[wary panther]

I figured they could just pull from the inventory of the copyist. But I guess not since that's an "input" queue

if you get things switched in time that the copyist doesn't nab them, the builders can seemingly pull from the artists's output inventory

but if the copyist gets them you can't get them back out without a case (and pausing the copyist so the haulers unload him...)

[still frigate]

I keep them on different recipes.

[wary panther]

I intended to, but then the paper mill got rolling and suddenly they were zooming

[still frigate]

/laughs

[stiff flint]

I generally on use scroll cases for a few things.... but I will create about 20 of them for survey results to start stock piling for pilots licenses late game

[shell fiber]

Unfortunately the water source only listen to the current season, I can't make it pause for any reason other than drought

[shell fiber]

There's no reason to keep unfancyfied blueprints if you ask me 🤔

[radiant arch]

tbh: i only ever build any scroll storage when they need to pick up scrolls from demolished buildings - i make sure to empty them and repurpose for like explorations

copyist and artist are such perfect places to store enough

and i make new ones once the go down (if i not forgot^^)

[still frigate]

Some sort of pump?

[shell fiber]

The Great Dam ™

to replace the oversized mech pumps that i don't like so much

that is a whole lot of modeling, but i'm seeing the end of it soon

[radiant arch]

is there a reason only the 70° canon is ground-only?

[radiant arch]

it wont allow to build on top, will it? like putting a dam on the dam 🙂

[shell fiber]

not really, i didn't know it was 🤔

[shell fiber]

probably ground only

the green wood funnel thing is under the ground level, so it will use the terrain cutout script to be visible, that wouldn't work either on top of other buildings

[radiant arch]

that makes sense

meant the other way round: building something on top of this big dam. that's not an option, is it?
there's an almost flat part already

[shell fiber]

well there's more and more junk on it

but i manged to animate the screws and the water it pushes up 🙂

[still frigate]

Those screws look so cool.

[shell fiber]

added some gears etc, and placed the plug in the most convenient location

oh, i could do better 🤔

[radiant arch]

with the crane something is off about occupation: trees can start growing on same tile while 'in build'

or.. actually never knew i can place them on tiles with trees 🤔
unexpected 🙂

[shell fiber]

recent change

plants no longer occupy the "floor" space which is used for side platforms and bridges etc.

[wary panther]

Oops. We had our first long (non-handicapped) badtide coming, and I paused it to go run some errands before dealing with that. Except... I apparently didn't pause it. Or set the floodgates to divert the parts of it that could have been. Surprisingly, I come back and everything looks basically OK? Pop looks stable, resources are in good shape, and they made 500 science, drew up the zipline plans, and built our first balloon while their forgetful overlord was distracted. So I guess they don't need the flying pointy thing's directions as much as I thought 🙂

New motto: even more suffering, but at least it's just a callous and indifferent universe that doesn't care about us, rather than a nosy and micromanaging deity...

So uh, good job little beaver dudes

[shell fiber]

To be fair it's entirely possible that you lost 80-90% of your population, but it just rebounded on its own.
If your priorities are set up good "accidents" are not a death sentence.
It's only when it becomes systemic and happens all the time that you did think of it as a game e over 😉

[wary panther]

Right, but if that happened I don't think they would have held together the supply chain and gotten so much science and blueprint research done

but yes, I assume things went badly for a while at least

[shell fiber]

now i just need to finish the rebalancing of late-game buildings, science cost etc.

[shell fiber]

Right now each Grand Dam houses 12 beavers, works autonomously for 500 HP / 20water per hour, and is 5-wide 3-tall.

[radiant arch]

made a windmill 🙂

[shell fiber]

i'm trying to find a good value for the aquifer pump strength

i had mistakenly thought that 1cms was roughtly equivalent to 5 water / hour of pumping

is it not

like the big dam pumping 20/hour could not gobble up all the water from a 0.25 source

so right now i'm at 0.05 cms

which seems miserable, but i want it to fill up a pond, while not providing enough for an actual water supply

[wary panther]

1 simulation "day" is 460 seconds at 1x. Water simulation runs at half speed, so it takes 2 "seconds" for a 1cms flow to fill a 1cm block (which is 5 units of "pumped" water in stock, though I think you've messed with that in whitepaws? But in stock then, a 1cms flow produces 230 voxels per day, or 1150 "pumped" water.

[shell fiber]

interesting...

so a 0.25 cms source would produce ... 57.5 voxels worth of water / day, and yes i added grauschweif's script to make one voxel 10 water, so that's 500 ish water per day

and my dam can pump up to 480 water... interesting

hmm...

but i think it's more fun to have the source overflow, it also makes is less... well brainless as an irrigation system

but in that case it would be probably better if the water was a bit more contamiated, like 10%

that prevents usage of river baths which is not too big of an issue, and punishes effectively overpumping from those sources 🤔

[radiant arch]

might go at 20 even for that purpose. only downside with those is that it makes farming in the river awkward

[wary panther]

If it's coded, it might be fun to give it a "depth" control (like pumps) have, and the deeper you go , the cleaner it gets, but the less flow you get....

[radiant arch]

would be nice if it was that easy!

[wary panther]

sure, I am not well versed in what's easy to make dynamic

just thinking about mechanics that could be fun

generally speaking that's how aquifers work - they get cleaner with depth, but the power required to lift it to the surface (or flow you get for a given power) falls off

[shell fiber]

let's try 10 for now

also because visually the Grand Dam only carries nice and clean water, i made it block when in bad water. the script that does this is nice because it also stops the animation from running when it's out dry.