Water Beaver Overhaul

[still frigate]

Just keep at least one alive and give it space and they will grow to fill all available space.

Which, of course, means temporarily turning off the harvesting.

Once I have a section built up, I setup harvesting in a checkerboard pattern and they are self-sustainable.

[red bridge]

thats smart

[red bridge]

is there an early game way to cure injured and sick beavers?

[still frigate]

Nope. It is sorta meant to torture and motivate players like me to get the library built and research the medical meds.

[red bridge]

these slackers

beavers i mean

[still frigate]

You can build contamination jails early for the beavers who will get sick due to badwater harvesting.

[red bridge]

ik that

[still frigate]

kk

(Never sure what a person has or hasn't discovered.)

[red bridge]

yes but you have been helpful

[still frigate]

Thank you.

Here is a little task/trick that will take a while, especially in the narrow spots. I am "herding" brambles from the lower left of the screen to the upper right. They will spread across roads so long as they are watered. They even survive in (good) water the same depth as rice.

[still frigate]

bug: this second overhang walkway still exists.

@shell fiber

[shell fiber]

I don't think it should break 🤔

[shell fiber]

Ah crap yes

[still frigate]

I have enough other mods that I may have done it to myself.

By the by, does the large farmhouse no longer support a zip line directly?

[still frigate]

It is really amusing watching them JUMP up these giant stairs!

[sullen cape]

Heh tanks spam is something I needed to do, a dam would explode my population...

[sullen cape]

Hmmmm
||If you get to the end game, you have unlimited water and you don't need tank spam or a dam uh||

[radiant arch]

just pondered the same, Ants, how to spam my 4 factories, 2 advanced sawmills and 5+ assembly lines to make the dam to dam them all. ||just i never need the reservoir by this point||

[sullen cape]

Hmm tank spam is always OP even with tiny tanks in the first cycle...

[shell fiber]

Well early on that just makes sense, since primitive dams are not a thing, but if I make them cost logs and clay instead, I could reduce the amount of water stored in tanks 🤔

[stiff flint]

could putting more/less storage into the pump balance that better?

i wouldn't spam storage if i didn't need storage....

[radiant arch]

for how many maps is there even a viable option with primitive dams?
those steal logs (lots) and slow progress for a while.
and all there is is 0.65m and (with research and more logs and plenty tar 1.65..)
that's great for blocking up a river, or make something viable to harvest rice / lotus imho

yet there's no 'next' from there. can't extend it higher. would need to replace it all.
can't put pumps up on it either. it's even hard to get across early on..

that's my main issue with big dams later too: every time i wanted to increase height, i'd need to demolish the whole layer and put the pumps one up.
this requires a lot of water storage and is super slow. also pumps + shafts usually require platforms, which is limited mid-game too.
so i tend to plan out a minimal dam early, use some mix of early housing (haulers, pit&ladder, ..) and usually not touch it for a very long time (usually once only to replace with upgraded pumps, and only if there's no better location by that time)

technically i'm super fond of big dams, full of dwellings and all compact like that

[stiff flint]

i was thinking along the same thread.... an advanced roof option for the pump houses you could build on top of.... keep the pump intakes functioning at the same depth while the water level rises with the dam

the need to remove and replace pumps as you upgrade and expand is where the problem is centered

[radiant arch]

too rare to have enough space on other parts of the reservoir usually, isn't it?

(+ pumps are such a sweet option to gain height with something useful)

[stiff flint]

i crave more tetris peices to build dams with.... balconies and terraces..... or dare i say it?..... heavy duty glass window dams

[radiant arch]

wanna grow bananas as part of the dam?

[stiff flint]

i do now....

[radiant arch]

me too

[shell fiber]

That was part of the plan at some point, but then glass is pretty late game

[shell fiber]

Hmmm... Yes that's a good point

I like the visuals of the current pumps, but I could rework the upgrades to be stackable 🤔

That said, pipes would interfere across layers

[radiant arch]

might be enough to have those for the upgraded pumps (as it's rather early the simple pumps get replaced)

[radiant arch]

as in stacking pumps on pumps?
not just having a 'flat roof upgrade'?

[shell fiber]

Well actually it's more interesting to have the basic ones be stackable since they come earlier, this way you wouldn't have to replace them, you'd just stack more 🤔

[shell fiber]

Well flat roof upgrades, on which you may as well build an other layer of pumps

Or I could make a normal water pump that is shaped like the small bad water pump

Except a bit more self stackable

[radiant arch]

does that really fit the early game?

would need a side-access to water, wouldn't it? (the bad water pumps aren't really stackable or easy to handle early on)

still not really see how you want the early game / approach to change

if it's just about adding more options to build dams, a stackable option to pumps likely was a big win.

yet not sure it's very interesting or having too many options (different buildings) wouldn't confuse too much.
as a player i'd rather 'build upon' than 'often choose between basically same options'.

but i not really like change and i like the current early game and going with a disjoint 'village layout' approach to it

actually trying something new/ different might be fun too

[shell fiber]

That seems to be both the simplest option and the least confusing, I'll look at the models to see how to make them stackable

[sullen cape]

Hmmm
I feel like some of the changes make the game more like vanilla Timberborn, building large dams out of levees that don't count as houses

My current crazy map favours tanks and badwater repellent as the main waterways have mixed water and badwater in them

[stiff flint]

should this florist be buildable?

[old kite]

I have no idea if this is just U7 or if U6 is an issue as well (im playing on 7 now), but i built some big storage tanks like JC did in his most recent video (using platforms instead of dirt for supports) and they disappeared on reload.

FWIW i do think being able to build them on platforms is cheesy as fuck, but that 'feedback' should probably be there when the item is placed, not after its built lol

All of the platforms were built, so this isnt like the 'bug' from an update or two ago where you had to be careful about building stuff before mega platforms were completed.

edit: I just saw in JCs video that his tank built on the large industrial piles worked. Ill try to remember to test it on U7 with piles vs platforms, but no promises. Its getting late and timberborn load times suck lol

edit again: it seems this might be a U7 thing. I placed both tanks (top and bottom entrance) on piles and supports and all 4 disappeared on reload.

Again, i think its fair that this doesnt work...but it should be indicated as unbuildable when you place it, not deleting your progress when you reload a save (imo)

also side note: i saw the discussion earlier today about removing the big tanks because building a dam should be the priority. Ill just say that on a lot of maps that 'should' be the goal, but on many maps...i just dont think its really possible. Taking out the ability to store massive amounts of water just means that a lot of maps are essentially useless, imo.

FWIW youre already at a bit of a disadvantage if youre storing water in tanks vs in a dam because you have to dedicate more labor to pumping during the wet season. This is definitely offset by the mechanical pump since it just uses haulers, but haulers can already be a pain for a lot of people to manage without making the population go nuts.

I dont know that i have a perfect solution to suggest, but i do think removing the large tanks creates a huuuuuuuuuge difficulty gap between playing plains vs lemon canyon, for example.

[still frigate]

I suppose I'll throw my 2¢ (centimes or cents, your choice) worth in on the whole tank discussion...

I like building dams and try to do it early on. A mix of the 2x2 liquid storage building and the 2x3 crate storage building can make a decent 2-height dam. That said, even the best regular pumps can't supply a decent sized-colony, let alone one spread out all over the map. Tanks are a necessity as far as I am concerned.

In the attached image, this array of upgraded deep pumps was not keeping the colony in water. I had to add the mechanical pumps seen behind them. Even then, if I didn't have tank in places, I would be hosed. At least the water tank buildings help, which I build a lot of. Both the 2x2 and 3x3 versions.

Contrary to what I just said, I don't think I have a single medium tank on this map (second image). All liquid storage is buildings, mostly the 2x2 variety.

I also really like the big tanks, but on so many maps it is a bitch to find a good place to bury one. With the dirt block being so expensive, terraforming a place for one is also unrealistic. Unless once can build it in a 3x3 hole created by buildings, but I wouldn't expect that to work. Even if it did, the mix or 1-height and 2-height buildings to make a 3x3 holes for it would probably be an annoyance. (Now I have to try and see if this can be done!)

[incoming topic whiplash]

Can @radiant arch (or anyone who knows) explain to me how to make uses of log bridges? At the moment, I can make no sense of them or how they would help construction (or anything). A few images of examples would do wonders as well.

[stiff flint]

I use the pit and ladder storage tanks early to take advantage of the extra height from the internal ladder

[still frigate]

I love those.

[old kite]

Tbh i think the only time i used it was to bridge a 4 wide gap where i wanted to run power across. Unlike a suspension bridge you can put platforms on those and then run power across the top of it.

Disclaimer: i dont pretend to play the 'right' way on a lot of stuff. I follow the rules, but tend to brute force my way through a lot of things via extra population/resources.

[radiant arch]

log bridges changed in U7 to be:

• blocking on either end with any side-platform (or themself)
• they also block one tile below the bridge-part

so the setup became rather sad and messy with the pillars

i'll try and load my game to test again

[radiant arch]

the original idea was placing them like this:

but since they now can't overlap, you need to bridge it more like this or something

it's broken imho

still can make it work with the long aqueducts and placing the big wheels on top of the pillars, just more messy

for building you can run path along inside the aqueduct too

[still frigate]

Have you brought this up to @shell fiber ? Seems like it is not intentional?

[radiant arch]

not yet got to this, no

i see why he did it

it's the same occupation fix needed to make side-platforms impossible to overlap

so you can't place log bridges on those for example or skewer-platform out from an overhang

it's just no sense for the log bridges

randomly placing those wheels isn't really useful, is it? 🙂

[still frigate]

Not at all. I honestly see no reason to ever use this piece.

[radiant arch]

oh, for an abyss reactor it gives you 700-800

just had a 0.2 source or something overflow and only got 80 haha

can also be really useful to channel badwater

plus you got plenty great spots for batteries up there

actually used aqueducts for power-sourcing on more difficult maps a lot to cover needs late mid-game when still far off from abyss reactor

like when you have very limited space or need bad flow control with (lotus/ rice) farming needs

[still frigate]

Admittedly, I made this map, but this was NOT an intended effect.

Oh, I see the aqueducts for moving water, but not for power gen.

[radiant arch]

yeah, i admit that power is no issue for your map!

[still frigate]

What can I say? I love high water flow maps. 😛

[radiant arch]

agreed on that!

[still frigate]

Of course, I had to go crazy with power on it. 😛

Not finsihed but currently:

[radiant arch]

and not a single battery 🙃

[still frigate]

NEVER!!! I hate those!

[radiant arch]

haha

you send them off to vacation when there's no water?

[still frigate]

I don't think I have used once since U4.

[still frigate]

I usually play a clan that doesn't need them. IT if vanilla. Emberpets otherwise... until WhitePaws. But even now... I just let the drought run its course. Always plenty to do.

[radiant arch]

that's nice too

[still frigate]

The white paws have their gas-powered generators, but they are too weak. And solar is too expensive. Nuclear is tolerable, but wasteful . But that abyssal reactor is so nice. And now that I know about the aqueducts I am excited for when I unlock it on this playthroug!

This playthrough has been 100% without dev mode. I can't wait to try to build the abyssal reactor "correctly".

THIS monster was a P.I.T.A. to build without dev mode, but I did it.

[radiant arch]

seeing the abyss reactor finished is really rewarding

[shell fiber]

Yes why ?

[shell fiber]

Which changes ?

[shell fiber]

Can you give screenshots of how it was before disappearing ?

[shell fiber]

That is a difficult balance to find, no doubt about that, I'll do my best 😅

[shell fiber]

On hollows I also use them quite a lot 😅 pretty happy with those buildings

[shell fiber]

Oh crap, completely missed that 😭

[shell fiber]

Yes, that was the intent

Okay, so I urgently need to fix the giant log bridges 🤔

Any use case outside of making a catwalk under / over some aqueducts ? I have a workable idea, but the use case are not exactly identical 🤔

Typically instead of one half log being stuck between two pillars, have it stuck in a T or + style to which I would also add a narrow passage to walk through the pillar I think

[sullen cape]

Oh if we are making more types of primitive dams then it might just be like a vanilla levee dam?

[still frigate]

I could see use for this like this.

[radiant arch]

really love this idea. that's what i'd want to go for when making shafts bridge complicated areas (using platforms in Y or T shapes)

only problem is with aqueducts only having 3 or 4 width between the pillars

that's too narrow for log bridges if you add any extension to the pillar (might be too wide if you have the pillar in the middle of the bridge too?)

a 'tunnel' within the pillars, that could attach log bridges on either side, would be really cool imho.

yet the most common usecase for me is having them on top - either directly on the pillar or with a platform (spacer) between

actually.. can pretty much make a (wobbly/ weird) tunnel in the pillars using platforms already i guess.. but no fan of it visually

[shell fiber]

Oh yeah right, that wouldn't be good. Funny how I sometimes forget the most basic things 😅

[sullen cape]

Hmm sometimes I'm not the greatest at giving context either 😅

[sullen cape]

I feel like parts of the mod are working against itself
Dams are good and I build big ones in vanilla, but that's without the nerf to dams due to beavers living in them
Balance is very hard, and I'm still enjoying my playthrough
I need more than 2.2cms of water to my main colony now though... 😅

[stiff flint]

it was showing as "out of range for construction" until i placed a path arriving from the left

[shell fiber]

Ah... Interesting 🤔

I didn't think about that

I also had an other idea for the dam issues 🤔
Not yet 100% sure of the practicality, but maybe I could make some (most) buildings require water access. Like the factory would require it for cooling, the kitchens could require it instead of using water in their recipes etc 🤔

But that requires extensive rework of many things

For now I think the most straightforward is to make the basic water pumps upgrades have a flat roof

[radiant arch]

it would certainly force people to build dams if factories, kitchens etc needed to touch water with their backs! (front? kitchens smoking into the water?)

pretty much change the early game and how to layout things a lot too

[stiff flint]

if the water access is at ground level it would be easier to flood the entire industrial area like a rice paddy.... and if a paper mill can get water from direct access that potentially saves a lot of hauler jobs

[radiant arch]

would only make sense if doors could be flooded? (or else building underwater becomes the new normal?)

[old kite]

I assume you mean from the previous message about the big tanks going away lol.

Lemme grab em from JCs discord

[shell fiber]

good point...

[shell fiber]

well that's odd 😰

[stiff flint]

this makes my brain release the happy chemicals

[shell fiber]

not gonna lie, that's kind of ugly 😓

hm... also i guess we could get used to it

feels like some weird pinapple pie or something

[radiant arch]

instead of changing a great design: putting another 'addon' above the upgraded pump to make it stack 3rd layer (maybe offset 1m towards pump to cover those) wouldn't work?

just imagined something like an inverse dam-like piece as 2x2 base for another solid building + a platform like walkway - so a 2x3 upgrade to the 3rd layer?

but might be too much, to stack an upgrade on an upgrade..

kinda like this, with a platform-walkway for path on the left side roof

[shell fiber]

ooh, that's actually a pretty good idea 🤔

[shell fiber]

but it poses a small balancing issue then, you basically dam 3 high

with only 3 population

which sure is nice, but maybe a bit too easy

[radiant arch]

it couldn't add 3 inhabitants to the lower?

[shell fiber]

well the upgrade could have its own inhabitants

and also, that quickly results in crimes against gravity 😓

[radiant arch]

i mean, technically my design idea is a little broken: there's 0.5m missing in height, so it could add a row of windows

[radiant arch]

might be true.. yeah.. but leaning to one side also gives it more dam-feel (and there's supposed to be water pressure)?

[shell fiber]

that would work with minimal adjustment

[radiant arch]

gravity crimes should be low given it's 3 height per 1 extra width
and you could block side-platforms to that side too to make it harder?

[shell fiber]

but to be honest... i'm not too displeased at this design

ah

[shell fiber]

actually this design poses an other problem actually

in a given building, the watertightness has to be consistent across colums

so on the side view, voxel 0;2 is not watertight, while 1;2 would neet to be

but anyway, i kept the old 3D models (trying to not be an idiot)

so i can always rollback

[shell fiber]

this seems to be in order

also directly replaces the old ones without apparent issues

partial replacement for the old giant log bridge

and this one to replace the 4-long one

[radiant arch]

looks cool, what's the usecase for it?

[abstract vector]

I'm all for crimes against gravity

[shell fiber]

Well the idea is that too convert the 4-long giant log bridge, you'd need two 2+2 T bridges, which is fine, but for the 3 long one a miserable 1+1 would look silly. And aqueducts can do 90° turns too, so how do we do that ?

Well like this, a full ring of side platforms

But I really need to make it so that giant pillars can't be placed on platforms or side platforms, that's... yikes... I really hate it 😬

[spring heath]

on the subject of water pump watertightness...

I thought I remembered seeing water fall 'through' the upgrades ie under the triangle but over the door; was this fixed or am I hallucinating?

like don't get me wrong, this^ makes way more sense, it's just not what I was expecting lol

already had to rebuild this dam once to lower the height; turns out I only needed the pumps and upgrades all along 😮‍💨

[spring heath]

I do like the look and function of these!

problem solved, save for the flooded tank I'll move

[still frigate]

<laughs> I am very guilty of that, but it does make sense for it not to be possible.

The two times I have tried to make an aqueduct has been where there was already construction so dierctly on the ground wasn't even a possibility. 😛

That just means I can't use them for some of the things I wanted. I am sure they will still have value with the big nuclear reactor, even if little more.

[still frigate]

bug: scavenger's junkyard range

The in-range for the Scavenger's Junkyard is still not working like it was. There is a lot of metal that should be "in-range" according to the blue outline, but the scavenger yard says nothing to do in range.

[shell fiber]

it should be able to flow over the houses just as well, don't know why it's not. but generally water starts overflowing close from the source

in my esting that was working fine. are you sure they're not just full in scrapmetal ?

[shell fiber]

got this to connect the paths properly, at the expense of...some minor weirdings

[radiant arch]

that's pretty!

[shell fiber]

just for the sake of testing, this is 21 families worth of beavers

so 63 beavers

it is roughly 5/8th of a circle diameter 16-17

so roughtly 105 voxels, depth is 2.5 ish

and one voxel is five water

so that's about 1310 water stored, minus evaporation 😓

[radiant arch]

only need 4 of those to replace one big tank 🙂

[shell fiber]

hmm...that'snot good

[radiant arch]

water beavers do use up lots of water, don't they?

[shell fiber]

yep

[radiant arch]

for your image you could increase it to 3-4k with ~250 beavers it seems. which is a nice mid-game population.
yet not sure such a sweet spot is very common to have

[shell fiber]

63 beavers consuming 2.1 water / day for a maximum of 9 day drought, would require 1190 water 😓

[radiant arch]

pretty sure it's hard to impossible to build that dam without a 200-300 storage already

[shell fiber]

thankfully, if i need to, i can increase the thirst value of water

anyway, have to go for today

[radiant arch]

have a nice day

[shell fiber]

thx !

Hmm... The main issue here is the amount of water in... well, water

Maybe there's some config file for that I can overwrite

Otherwise the best option is incase the amount of thirst provided by water

But that requires also changing every other drink as well

I could go into weird stuff like making beavers get a little bit of thirst back when swimming 🤔

Unless someone can come up with a script that increase the amount of water in water

It I can also consider that is fine like this, five medium tanks and this make for 3000 water stored 🤔

Or a mix of several options

[still frigate]

Reloading the save fixed it.

I often play for hours and hours without exiting and reloading, so that allows errors to creep in from many sources.

[radiant arch]

there's so many issues with timberborn 'getting stuck' like that only to work again on save&load..!

[still frigate]

Even unmodded.

[cloud flax]

Yayyyy caught up with all the messages!!!

We got zip-lines!!!!

[still frigate]

And they seem to be working correctly this time! Very happy.

[cloud flax]

Imma scrap my U6 colony and start U7 one it seems

[cloud flax]

Yeahhh. And they seem to be super fast tooo

Can I directly open my U6 colony in U7?

[radiant arch]

pretty much, yes

[still frigate]

I do not beleive so.

[radiant arch]

some issues with side-platforms overlapping: those might vanish

as in: overhangs, squewers, bridges and log bridges

[still frigate]

I don't have a valud U6 to test with anymore.

[radiant arch]

maybe starting a new game is safer^^

[cloud flax]

Oh I'll test it later and see then. I had just reached mid game iirc

[cloud flax]

But it takes sooooo much time to get back going 🫠

But yeah. That's what likely going to happen

What are some good maps? Or maybe wait for map build contest

I was using the castles map, one which JC was doing his folktails run on. Was pretty fun! And nice places

[shell fiber]

There may be some balance change update incoming 😅

[cloud flax]

Was hard to place medium mine cuz the lowlands, are extremely low and not much place to dig 4 deep hole

[cloud flax]

Oh are you talking bout water stuff??

Please don't completely get rid of giant tanks... How would you ever play with flatter maps, where you can't build tall dams easily

[still frigate]

Water canons and beaver towers, maybe?

[radiant arch]

problem is in the 5units-per-voxel making reservoirs super inefficient + evaporation on wide lakes..

[cloud flax]

Like the dam might not even be self sufficient for its own population

[radiant arch]

to replace a 4k-tank you'd need like 12x12 at 6m depth.
but 15x15 at 4m and more than 20x20 at 2m..

[still frigate]

@shell fiber I somehow missed this! I saw its big brother, but this is way cool! Power shaft through my dam is a big yes!!!

[cloud flax]

It seems the game itself doesn't allow for it at all

[still frigate]

I was afraid it wouldn't work, but I didn't wanna jsut kill all hope.

[cloud flax]

Found this map called braveheart. Seems promising.... There's toooo much water generation

[still frigate]

NO SUCH THING! 😛

If I'm not struggling to deal with excess water then there isn't enough on the map. 😉

[shell fiber]

It's been back recently

[small depot]

Is it possible to use houses as dams that take in water but don't consume the water it's blocking?

[cloud flax]

What happened to all the T intersections??

[radiant arch]

https://mod.io/g/timberborn/m/whitepaws-frog-statue-patch-unofficial#description

quick patch to enable knatte anka's frog statues

[cloud flax]

Look who both are staying together and planning some mischief 👀

[shell fiber]

wait what is that smoke ? 🤔

[radiant arch]

ehm.. a fragment from the choo choo thumbnail (re-used the layers^^)

giving it a pipe would be fun though - should i? (disclaimer: i hate smoking and it's unhealthy. but a frog god blowing water bubbles... )

[cloud flax]

what happened to the zipline on the large farmhouse??

[iron wind]

Water beaver faction where everything is a dam having problem with not getting enough water in their dams is an unexpected level of irony

[cloud flax]

why the large farm house range is not getting extended to the balloon on the right??

[shell fiber]

Those ballons are flying relays they don't give access to the ground

[cloud flax]

Then which ballon gave the access down below to increase the range? Is it no longer there?

[shell fiber]

it's not present anymore, not sure i'll put it back since the small tower does a fine job already 🤔

[cloud flax]

Oh okay.... And what bout the extensions on the large farmhouse and tree nursery? Cuz I can still see the paths but not out anything on it

[shell fiber]

i'll try to put those back i think

right now i'm trying to integrate some code from luke (faster swim speed and more water in water)

[cloud flax]

Ooooh. I thought I was missing some upgrade. But that sounds coool!!

[shell fiber]

although i'm not 100% convinced about the more water in water because that also affects the lido / waterdump

[cloud flax]

Would be playing most of the day here today if you need help testing!

[shell fiber]

i'm trying to get 10 water per voxel, but that also means you need twice more water to fill a lido

[cloud flax]

Would it cause issues with waterwheels and water flow mechanics?

[shell fiber]

i don't think so, it's a script that affect the conversion item / environment water

[cloud flax]

Fingers crossed

May there be more water for water beavers

[sullen cape]

Hmm, IRL water is incompressible, so they use it for hydrologics.

[radiant arch]

shouldn't be that bad, should it?

i mean.. how does it affect evaporation? if that's not doubled, it wouldn't really be more than a small delay in filling them up

[shell fiber]

for a lido-sized lido that's not much of a problem, but when you're trying to fill up a medium size pond if gets more complicated.
but i just managed to edit the flowing water recipe to store 45 water instead of 15, so now with 6 workers i'm hopeful that will actually get filled up.

[radiant arch]

actually love this! been too easy before 🙂

[spring heath]

I thought he looked dead... 😬 at least he was relaxed ig

[radiant arch]

awesome place to rest for a water beaver!

[shell fiber]

😱

[shell fiber]

hmm... something's wrong with the flat stackable water pumps

[shell fiber]

i'll try to push an update soon, promise 🙂

also, i'll add two dependencies soon : faster swim speed (set it to +100%) and configurable pumps (disable double pipe length, water conversion rates set to 0.1 instead of 0.2)

[still frigate]

Looking forward to the update.

Also, added #1 back in and #2 subscribed for the first time. 🙂

On you log bridges rework, will it be able to place them with only one of the two supports, or will they still need two anchors to place and build?

[shell fiber]

They will only have one anchor in the middle

[still frigate]

I just noticed a potential balance change I would like to point out. Your 2x2 2-story watertight lodge and your 3x3 triple watertight lodge have the same amount of residents and haulers. That seems against your general theme, and probably just snuck by.

[still frigate]

Anyone? Before I build one to find out and possibly end of having to tear it back out and redesign things, do the water canons act as dams?

The asnwer is "no" 😛

[still frigate]

Not really a bug... but the icons for no power (30° version) are about 1/3 of the way to the depth gauges. 😛

For a test, here on the no power icons on 30°, 45°, and 70° canons side by side.

[radiant arch]

looks like it is just placed 'center' of the thing

[still frigate]

Perhaps? That sorta even makes sense.

First time I have tried to fill a lake with the canons.

What is the size of that map you did you suggested I try?

[radiant arch]

the one i made?

[still frigate]

Yes

A few days ago.. maybe a week?

[radiant arch]

it's 128 high and 64 wide.. need too look up the length

fun-fact: it was about 32 zipline distance end-to-end

256 deep

[still frigate]

My rig probably wouldn't handle it fully populated. I am choking right now on my map with 1.2k beavers and I am nowhere near having tamed the whole map.

I guess I need to consider finally upgrading this old thing next time I am offered an upgrade hand-me-down.

[radiant arch]

i hear you on that.. mine takes 3-4 minutes just to load the map..

though it did perform okaish on low quality with 800 beavers

did you get close to the wonder on your aqueduct map?

kinda stuck with playing with choo choo and going past weird bugs and limits - but rather curious to play that map right after

[still frigate]

FPS on paused, normal, 2x and 3x speeds.

I should install Luke's utility for telling where the bottleneck is, but I am pretty sure it is my CPU.

[radiant arch]

never seen a FPS over 30..

[still frigate]

Plenty of ram, a pretty good video card, but a fairly old CPU.

/laughs

Wow. Over 10 years old.

The Intel Core i7-5930K was a desktop processor with 6 cores, launched in September 2014.```

[radiant arch]

well, my 4 core processor only is 1 year older! now i feel better 🙂

[still frigate]

When I was still a tech, I put a lot of money into my gaming rig. 😛

But I haven't worked since around 2020/21. 😦

[radiant arch]

same here..

[still frigate]

It was quite the lifestyle adjustment, wasn't it? /sigh

All well. Just keep on keeping on.

Well, this benchmark isn't what I had hoped it would be. It only looks at in-game numbers, not system specs.

Which, thinking about it, only makes sense. It would be a bit creepy if it could look into my actual rig.

[shell fiber]

Hmm... not entirely sure which one you mean by 3x3 triple watertight

If you mean the 2x3x2 watertight house, it's meant to be a little be more luxurious 😅
But the idea is generally 1 beaver per livable voxel +/- workspace

[shell fiber]

Oh... Well not much I can do about that 🤔

[shell fiber]

I had to give physical occupancy to the flag because otherwise trying to shoot water off the map would immediately crash the game. And the game puts the icon above the... barycenter ? Is that the correct word

[still frigate]

I was using in-game names of the buildings. the 2x2x2 has 8 spaces in it. the 1x3x3 also has 8 (removing the center square since it isn't livable). The 2x3x2 has 12.

It isn't a big deal at all. Just pointing it out in case it was missed.

(And yes, I meant the 2x3x2)

[radiant arch]

for me it fits: give them space for stairs, office, some common room with the big lodge.
also it's nice and simple: it's usually 3 (small or storage or triangle) or 6 (bigger) or a very distinct special building

just: there's no beavers in mines or foundry or educational buildings

my theory on that is, that flooding those places is kinda bad, so they got banned

[still frigate]

And a beaver living in a tent is NOT a happy beaver.

[radiant arch]

you know how often kits gnaw through those poles?

[still frigate]

expensive bug: large water storage (and contents) vanish on reload.

I tested this two times in a row; same result.

[radiant arch]

that's odd

the occupations look off. why is the tank 5x5x5 sized on blockSpec??

and 17 of those voxels are set to ground-only? (1 instead of 3 as in the others)

like isn't it only 5x4x4 sized?

tbh: getting 125 voxels set perfectly in unity is a real achievement..

[still frigate]

The metal poles at the top take up space. But they are supposed to go into ground or a "stackable watertight building." It is 3x3x3 inside with a 5x4 top.

[radiant arch]

well, it can only be a box in unity. so you got to set occupation on the empty voxels to empty too

8 stakes + 9 tank bottom = 17 .. that might match

[still frigate]

I usually have those poles only in ground. This is the first time I can remember using a "stackable watertight building" as part of the construction.

I reload to a previous save, but for now switching to dev mode for testing...

[radiant arch]

wait: you not have to dig out the space for those?? darn waste of dynamite..

[still frigate]

Always had to dig them out. Even in my U6 game I thought. At least for the water beaver mod.

Yes, it was my U6 game because that one was the one with both horizontal and vertical T power shafts.

I appears to be having a building as part of it. This is the above after existing and reloading.

I'm gonna grant myself a dev-mode "mulligan" and move this over one block since it was -supposed- to work the way I had done it. 😐

But I wont replace the lost water. They can re-gather it.

[still frigate]

water cannon inconsistency discovered. Intentional or not?

The 30° canon blocks its "measurement square" from having lilies planted. The other two canons do not.

[spring heath]

can place 4-long bridge on p+l stack, but not 3

[cloud flax]

this got built even when there was no terrain

[shell fiber]

i'll look into this, it's odd

if the placement is not valid, it shouldn't allow it to be build

[still frigate]

Agreed

[shell fiber]

there was an exception to that in U6 for the side platforms etc but that's not the case anymore

[shell fiber]

what, okay that is wrong too 😓

[still frigate]

But by the very description of the large water tank, it should be valid since there is no way for it to be supported by a watertight building if said watertight building isn't part of the side of it.

The "easy" fix would be to alter the description and make it require only dirt on all 3 sides.

[shell fiber]

the first design had trusses in the front too, so the actual bounding box was 5x5, then i removed them but for the sake of compatibility just left front row entirely empty

[shell fiber]

probably normal, the actual exit of the water mover has to have occupancy to prevent people from placing it outside of the map and crashign the game

the others do too, but the exit is much higher

[still frigate]

Ah. That makes sense

[still frigate]

I have been pondering this, and I would like to actually make an ask of you for a new piece. Rather than make it so that the pillars can only go on the ground, would you be willing to add in 1x1x1 and 1x1x2 -metal- platforms that -can- support the pillars?

If not, I understand and will try to adjust future designs if you do make the pillars only placable on the ground or themselves.

[radiant arch]

wasn't this more like 'on anything but platforms'?

[still frigate]

Uncertain.

[shell fiber]

that...gotta be the most corner case i have ever seen...

the longer bridge is wrong actually

yeah

the 4-long one shouldn't accept this

[still frigate]

??? Really? Vanilla allows it and in many cases a bridge like that is the only (logical) way to build to otherwise unreachable areas.

Again, your mod = your choice.

Apologies if I am coming across as too argumentative on your decisions. Many of them I love and agree with. A few leave me scratching my head in confusion, but in the end, the decision is yours and I support that.

[radiant arch]

you could build another bridge. it's cheaper too.

[still frigate]

How would you build the other bridge? I am confused.

[radiant arch]

it's one 2-m gap, a ridge and another gap

[shell fiber]

what ? it's okay in vanilla ?

[still frigate]

I am 90% sure it is. Want me to load vanilla and verify?

[radiant arch]

as it not impacts what you can reach in any way and makes more sense i'm with lapan on this one. bridges should not require supports from below^^

[still frigate]

He is saying the opposite. That they -do- need supports on both ends. Or I am misunderstanding.

[radiant arch]

the problem here was that there's something touching the bridge from below, which should invalidate them

nothing about requiring support or anything

[still frigate]

That is not how I interpreted this example. My apologies.

Also for me, the 4 piece cannot be placed if there is something under the 2nd block, as one would expect.

This is what I expect.

[radiant arch]

not a path, but a platform / ground - something which occupies 'top' of that voxel

that was the issue before

[still frigate]

Not how I see the OP's question. #1070709592176197642 message

Again, perhaps I am focusing on something totally different?

[shell fiber]

since i added rope now i'll make the longer bridges also need it

using metal made them too expensive anyway

i've also been thinking that if metal fixtures cost 1 scrap metal for 1 fixture, it's kind of a stupid ressource

so it should likely be at least 1 metal for fixtures

and i'm always concerned that the toys, comic book and other trinkets are too expensive to make

[still frigate]

Do you mean metal fasteners?

Aren't they critical to early game progression, long before one can make regular metal?

[shell fiber]

ah, yeah, i meant one scrapmetal = 2 fasteners of course

i get confused with the english word for those

i've also considered making the tools cheaper, but having every beaver want to have their own

[still frigate]

English, or its more primitive variant, American, is my first language and -I- get confused by it after 5+ decades attempting to communicate in it. 😛

[shell fiber]

afraid that would be annoying though

[radiant arch]

given how few it actually needs: i think those are fine actually. a minor hurdle first, but usually no-concern later on (=always too many of them)

[still frigate]

I should probably try to make those things more often.

Well, I make comic books

[radiant arch]

yeah, that's a no-brainer to make: artist and copyist on lowest priority make more of them than 1k beavers can use up

[still frigate]

Yep, that is what my copyist and artist are doing. 😛

[radiant arch]

and toys isn't really much more of an issue rn: you can have enough of them and mining tools just from a single primitive worker

so once you unlock the factory is basically a time you should get infinite amounts of toys

[still frigate]

Factory and assembly line unlocked.

[radiant arch]

i have a handicrafter make them just fine for hundreds

only really switch to assembly for them very late (but more for the storage)

[still frigate]

That is probably how you get your happiness so much higher than me. I still haven't crossed 30.

[radiant arch]

that's fun. you need twice as many beavers for the same output i'd assume

also twice the number of pumps and such..

[still frigate]

25 average, 26 in my happier district.

I'm not ignoring recreation over there, just not focused on it.

Trying to finish my massive water farm. 😛

[shell fiber]

i...just couldn't help myself, had this idea running circles in my brain for too long already, needed to let it out

[still frigate]

Yes please.

[shell fiber]

oh really ? good to know

[radiant arch]

hmm. maybe a disclaimer, as well-being scales with population for me:
mine make comic books at up to 4x pace and beavers live around 120 years.
so it might be that there can be a shortage for low-wellbeing approach with huge population

but there was never a shortage if i added well-being slowly as population grew

[still frigate]

Yeah... I'm running low and I don't even have any in my happy district yet.

Thee are two things I really have trouble making enough of. Cabbage and lotus flowers. It is a pity the hydroponics garden doesn't do lotus flowers.

[radiant arch]

doesn't the gmo do?

[still frigate]

<head slap> So it does.

[radiant arch]

also there's stews that multiply ingredients

it's much more efficient to give them superior foods and lower how much to harvest that way

[still frigate]

The superior foods need lotus flowers. 😛

[radiant arch]

true

[still frigate]

It looks like the gmo lab can be compeltely submerged?

[radiant arch]

i'd assume it can. can't it?

best place to make mushrooms

[still frigate]

I don't have 3-deep water anywhere.

[radiant arch]

you can always build them on land too

[still frigate]

True, but looking for things to help enclose my giant water farm.

Also, my mushroom and kimchi production

[radiant arch]

yeah.. i like high well-being haha

[shell fiber]

okay, i should really be looking into this giant tank issue... but to be honest i'm pretty sure i'll deprecate this thing soon

with the flat foor pump upgrades and the 10 water per voxel we should be just fine

[still frigate]

Can we have bigger tank buildings? 😛

[shell fiber]

but i think late late game i'll make a gigargantuan water storage

[still frigate]

Water isn't the only thing those tanks are good for. 😛

[still frigate]

I like my gargantuan storages.

By the by, I do quite enjoy seeing this continue to evolve.

[still frigate]

Am I missing any sawdust rates? (these are rounded slightly)

• 1 log @ 10/hr - Log Gnawing Station (set for sawdust)
• 1 log @ 2/hr - Log Gnawing Station (set for planks producing ¼ planks an hour)
• 1 log @ 2/hr - Rudimentary sawmill (producing 2 planks an hour)
• 1 glog @ 16.7/hr advanced sawmill (producing 1/3 half log an hour)
• 1 glog @ 17/hr - advanced sawmill (producing 6 logs an hour)
• 1 glog @ 15.8/hr - advanced sawmill (producing 6¼ planks an hour)

---

At first I did not understand the use cases for these two. They seemed like horrible choices for anything. But they use crude saw blades instead of steel saw blades for earlier access.

• 1 glog @ 6½/hr - advanced sawmill (producing 1.96 logs an hour) Why would anyone use this mode???
• 1 glog @ 4.7/hr - advanced sawmill (producing 1¼ planks an hour)

---

It would seem that the primitive log gnawing station is the best choice if sawdust is the ultimate goal and you don't want to use up giant logs.

[radiant arch]

also: a single wood burner can get overwhelmed by a single advanced sawmill 🙂

[still frigate]

I don't think I have ever burned off sawdust.

[radiant arch]

those gnawing tents surely are the best way to scale sawdust needs

[radiant arch]

i end up burning 90% of the stuff unable to put it to any use from late mid-game onward..
just too much demand for logs and planks from that advanced sawmill

[still frigate]

I have like 12k logs so I never really bother turning giant logs into logs.

Logs never seem to be a problem for me.

Planks, yes.

[radiant arch]

i always forget to scale forests ..

and get all surprised by the sudden need to build the big things (abyss reactors, late science, ..)

[still frigate]

I'm doing better this game. I have 1.7k planks in reserve at the moment but I go though them so fast.

[radiant arch]

i don't even know if giant logs are any more space efficient than regular forests. but i tend to mostly only rely on them from some point on (turning other forests into resin or chestnut famrs)

[still frigate]

Resin is my current construction bottleneck. And badtide just killed one of my pine forests. But I have a plan for the future. 🙂

[radiant arch]

making artificial resin?

never tried that yet.. actually did on a very small map. had no more space for those trees

[still frigate]

um...??? I missed that it even exists.

There are so many options in this... I either never notice or forget about a bunch of them.

That just challenges me to get better!

[radiant arch]

if you have the space it's easier to use trees imho

[still frigate]

I'm spread out, but I don't think I'm even using half the map.

What makes pine resin? I just glanced through everything and didn't see it.

Oh... the abyssal human lab

[stiff flint]

is 150 the intended science cost for the stream gauge?.... it's a pole with a float on it

[still frigate]

It also (somehow?) measures waterflow rate and contamination levels.

It is 150 science in vanilla as well.

[radiant arch]

or a levee or hedge actually haha

[shell fiber]

by the way

[radiant arch]

awesome work!

[still frigate]

Is that an initial unlock or is it behind science?

[radiant arch]

really really impressed by how much rope and your additions to models using that enriches the experience!

[still frigate]

Hrm... planks... probably behind science.

Was there a faster way to get dirt beyond the big drill? Two drills are not keeping up with the dirt usage of my buildings. /laughs

[radiant arch]

setting a storage to priority works. as does a clay pit collecting the stuff

oh, wait.. not emptying it..

there's mines for the abyss. but not sure about how efficient those are

[still frigate]

I have 8 dirt left. 😛

[radiant arch]

and there's kinda limited abyss spots usually

[radiant arch]

do you put some into building / gold?

[still frigate]

Nope. gold is only gotten from the clay pits.

[radiant arch]

gold from clay pits takes a lot of dirt

[still frigate]

Well crap.

Teach me to pay attention to costs.

[radiant arch]

but well.. 2 drills is rather little too

usually running 3 coal, 1 iron to satisfy demands (sometimes adding another batch if in need of extra metal)

but might be the downfall of too high wellbeing: the automated stuff can't keep up

[still frigate]

This is a metal heavy map. I still haven't gotten the "city blocks" yet.

[spring heath]

If it absolves me at all, I ended up making the stack 1 taller, for more clearance over the large farmhouse 😅 and I still don’t think it would let me place the 3; I’m assuming the occupied voxel is related to the upgrade space on the farm? The reason I needed the bridge was for lotus flower-nenuphar separation 😁 a terrain barrier and a now-deleted temporary rappelling crane (honestly one of my favourite buildings btw), and now I have a flower farm inaccessible to the farm (top of screenshot), a lotus farm which is reachable by farm (bottom), and a bridge through the middle to the tree nursery off to the right (access to main district off to left). I love finding ways to manipulate the access ranges to work in my favour, as mentioned previously I have also used fences to do this but saw a fun opportunity for something new here

[stiff flint]

I plan for 2 iron drills and a coal.... if there was a dirt only option I would probably run a 4th drill and start using more GMO's

[shell fiber]

default value, i never even bothered to look at this building's guts 😅

[shell fiber]

right now i put it at 100 science

[shell fiber]

actually the large farmhouse occupancy was...crude at best, some voxels that are visually almost empty were marked as full while really they shouldn't. just fixed that

[stiff flint]

also on the topic of drills.... the ore and dirt lines for the 2 drills are inverted.... one has ore above dirt the other is dirt above ore

[shell fiber]

i think the game did that on its own 🤔 alphabetically Coal > Dirt > Iron

in my reciepes the coal and iron are both on top

[stiff flint]

it doesn't matter..... it's just one of those things that you notice and can never unsee

[shell fiber]

oh yeah, people are definitely going to love this thing, i already do 🤩

[still frigate]

You're gonna give it to us before you stop for the day right? 😉

[stiff flint]

what if.... a stream gauge was also a house?.... uses paper and pencil sets to make logbooks (library books)

[shell fiber]

😑

half full

and completely full

[still frigate]

Is there supposed to be water under it or was that for testing?

[radiant arch]

is this un-defied gravity still?

[still frigate]

-I- like it. How much does it hold?

[radiant arch]

looks like it was supposed to hide that part 🤔

[stiff flint]

does the top come off so we can grow nenefars (sp) in it?

[shell fiber]

in principle the amount display mesh should be cut off when below the building

[shell fiber]

right now 7000

but it could be a bit more, maybe 7500

it costs A LOT of glass

[still frigate]

Speaking of, I need to figure out why my glass production is going so slow.. NVM, I'm just using it too fast.

[radiant arch]

imho it should burst randomly (rare)

or leak some

[stiff flint]

if i need more glass i'll want another foundry.... then i'll need more quartz.... that 4th drill is looking better all the time

[radiant arch]

sadly drills not give quartz..

[stiff flint]

not with that attitude....

i'm sort of begging for a reason to need another full reactor

[radiant arch]

technically the foundry uses up quartz faster than a single medium mine.. hmm..

[radiant arch]

yeah.. looking for anything to do with my 3rd too.. currently it's running a beaver washer

[still frigate]

I have 3 quartz mines under my foundry.

[radiant arch]

foundry can eat up 2 medium mines if both have max workers

[shell fiber]

don't give me ideas you might regret 😅

[still frigate]

"Any good idea can flower into madness."

I had to shift one of my resource towers because of my zip lines. 🤣

[radiant arch]

for balance you could shift it back after the next layer

[still frigate]

/laughs

I just might!

I did want it against the ancient aqueduct.

But it will be a few layers.

Maybe not...

1 more layer above the double being built then I can do it.

[stiff flint]

i hold back on adding more large mines until i can't avoid it.... i'm always concerned about what to do with the hole if i decommission the mine.

but i start placing the mines on high ground i can convert them into gravity battery wells later.... hmmmm

[still frigate]

Put pit and ladder water storage down in it.

[stiff flint]

that works too

[shell fiber]

hmm... let's say you square it out to a 4x4x4 hole, that 64 voxels of water, IE 640 storage plus some irrigation 🤔

not amazing, but not too crappy either maybe

[radiant arch]

can fit a lido too (though tower baths are still better in every aspect)

actually used to connect two of them for storage like this a few times

(i rarely use more than 2 mines late game, often only one + small mine for salt)

[stiff flint]

NaCl and NO could have more uses

[shell fiber]

hmm... i don't have a lot of ideas for that 🤔

[radiant arch]

NO: tar, nitro, ..
salt: chips, processor

anything else?

(actually neither is really any bottleneck ever. just you either have it or no)

[stiff flint]

NO might be a fertilizer option, i'm not sure if there are other industrial uses.... NaCl could find purpose in the nuclear buildings

[radiant arch]

yeah.. but that would be artificial complexity, wouldn't it? (personally prefer short recipe lists)

[still frigate]

The cooking tent is the only place that makes chips, correct?

[stiff flint]

one of the things i "never" build are the robotic farms.... it's so much easier and more satisfying to use beaver farmers i don't use robot farms

[radiant arch]

btw: using a florist to make lotus flowers and a kitchen to make fried rice can lower cabbage need a lot (florist work only half as fast as mechanised kitchen though)

[radiant arch]

they can make a huge difference for small maps or those very hard to farm on

also if you wanted to minimize the beaver count they can help a lot, as bots can operate them

[still frigate]

1587 beavers right now.

225 unemployed

[stiff flint]

that's a fair use for them.... but it's the only use for the robotics degree and the controllers

[shell fiber]

the robofarms exist also in order to make towns in which beavers only do minimal work

[still frigate]

??? Is that... possible in this overhaul?

[shell fiber]

some jobs just can't be automated but you can probably get away with 4-6 hours of work dayly, maybe less thanks to the ziplines

[shell fiber]

well great, this is a liquid-specific issue...

ah, it's a shader issue

hmm...

[still frigate]

Cool

[shell fiber]

kimchi works fine

problem is all the other liquids...

ooh, there's an other option...

since it's made out of glass to keep the water in, it obviousls can keep water out, and therefore should be watertight

which also means it should be a house

[still frigate]

An extra residential level?

[shell fiber]

and if i make the house part blocky and 2-tall under it... well that should cover our tiny issue

[still frigate]

Nice

[shell fiber]

the alternative being to try to look into the shaders

and explain to people why this one is not watertight

[still frigate]

I see nothing wrong with a mega housing block attached to it.

[radiant arch]

hmm.. 3x3x2 times 4 housing.. 48 total?

[shell fiber]

yeah, that's the number i end up with too.

i can be nicer and skim off 1/3rd or 1/4th of course, like 32-36

also can give quite a lot of haulers 😅

[radiant arch]

... by that point in game.. it's nice to grow a huge town actually with luxury highrises filled with burgers and lemonade!

[still frigate]

I got my happy district up to 30.

[shell fiber]

hmm... yes but that's still a ludicrous amount of people... even 24 per building is a lot if you actually intend to store water

[radiant arch]

well.. actually.. i wanted them for each drink. just for the set

[shell fiber]

and on that note, 48 beaver x 2.1 water/day x 9 days... 900 water ? easy

eesh

[radiant arch]

btw: is there a cheat in blender to align/center things like rails/ roads?
i despair over that all day, but not want to redo those either..

[shell fiber]

you can center an object on an other object.

but you probably should make sure the origins are to geometry beforehand.

[radiant arch]

yeah, importing and random transform 'by eye' might have been the wrong start^^

thanks, that helped a lot

[novel stump]

How do you normally handle bad water without a sluce using water beavers?

[radiant arch]

different ways actually:

• use lido / irrigation towers to irrigate disconnected parts
• use irrigation small tower to contamination proof ground
• use dams (early on: build&destroy..) to divert badwater
• use floodgates to divert badwater

other than that the usual stockpiling of things needed to outlast the badtide + some

if there's any risk of your beavers getting contaminated you want some prisons (no thirst/ hunger while in!) and especially the potions from alchemist distillery to cure them much much faster

either strategy usually involves some dynamiting - which got much easier with since tunnels are available

[novel stump]

Thx for the tips!!

[radiant arch]

somehow my track ballast grew leaves..

[still frigate]

Giant water farm is now fully online.

In other parts of the colony I am still trying to implement @radiant arch's suggestions for reducing cabbage shortages.

[sullen cape]

Vanilla got rid of the metal cost already 😇

[storm gulch]

Oh man this is awesome, I can't wait to use these when I get to my U7 playthrough

The new building designs and different bridges/stairs/pathing options are some of my favorite things about this mod

[still frigate]

Okay, that looks better than I was imagining.

[shell fiber]

and full

[still frigate]

The giant log corners look really cool. Sorta a pity that all the giant storge buildings don't have them now that I see it.

[shell fiber]

well i could but that would interfere a bit with the items inside.

maybe if i cut a the inner quarter of the giant log...🤔

but that's really not a priority

[still frigate]

No... just a cool thought.

We've got this giant fluid storage, the new rope stairs, and what else in queue for the next update?

(I thought there was more but I am not finding it.)

[still frigate]

I normally do not make it far enough in a valid playthrough to unlock the wine cellar and pay attention to it, so I had no clue just how powerful it is.

• ½ units/hour - Kimchi (Fermentation Barrel or House)
• 16¼ units/hour - Kimchi (Wine Cellar)
• 1¼ units/hour - Chestnut Beer (Fermentation Barrel or House)
• 25 units/hour - Chestnut Beer (Wine Cellar)
• 1¼ units/hour - Half Fermented Sake (Fermentation Barrel or House)
• 27½ units/hour - Half Fermented Sake (Wine Cellar)
• 12½ units/hour - Wine (Wine Cellar)

---

Sure, it is an expensive build with needing a BA in agronomy per building, but totally worth it!

Time to revamp my booze production.

[radiant arch]

it even very slightly saves on the ingredients

[still frigate]

That's cool and all, but I have plenty of ingredients for the alcohols. But now I can replace massive blocks of fermenters.

18 barrels (with 1 worker each) = 9 kimchi an hour vs 16¼ units from a single building with 3 workers. Just... wow!

[radiant arch]

same with mushrooms actually, isn't it?

so many unemployed after!

[still frigate]

I haven't shutdown my mushroom tents yet. /laughs

I'm really hit or miss on removing outdated or temporary buildings. My wort offender is blocks of 10-20 lumberjack flags just left behind and turns on even after they have clearcut an area.

Expensive stuff like the tree nursery gets demolished immediately after it has done what is needed so I can use its resources to build it somewhere else.

And sometimes I even forget about more expensive buildings like my deforestation block.

[radiant arch]

it's cool how you can feed them all still and have such big district and population

[still frigate]

I'm doing real well on food now.

Plus a massive ingredients tower so it is easy to see when I am not producing enough of.

1.8k beaver population. Global happiness: 35 Happy district: 44
(I did listen to what you were telling me yesterday) 🙂

[radiant arch]

nothing wrong with your approach 😅

did learn a lot from it too

[still frigate]

Alas, badwater took out my secret underground pine forest before my beavers even got near it. So even though it is irrigated from below, I am putting in water towers to fight ground pollution when badwater inevitably hits again.

[shell fiber]

i made the bottom of the tank part slanted to bring water to the right place 🙂

[still frigate]

Very subtle. I might not have noticed if you hadn't told me.

[shell fiber]

it only matters for the first five hundred water or so

no worries 😅

[shell fiber]

i think for those buildings, the main difficulty is keeping them supplied 😅

[still frigate]

It was meant as a compliment.

[still frigate]

Especially the winery itself. I need a lot more grapes if I want to keep up.

[radiant arch]

isn't this mod lovely in that it pushes you to replace whatever optimisation just freed up?

[shell fiber]

uuh, i think that's about it 🤔
minor changes to the bridges (science cost and build cost down by a lot)

[radiant arch]

zipline endpoints and those add-ons been low priority for now?

[shell fiber]

yeah, i want to push the water rebalance update first, but for that i would need to manage to integrate Luke's mods, or at least overwrite the default values

i also made the metal fixations 33% cheaper for now (2 scrap metal +0.33 coal = 3 metal fixation)

and i want to make tool a "consumable"

ie beavers will want to have their own

[radiant arch]

makes sense

[still frigate]

Agreed

[radiant arch]

curious how this plays early game with all those changes

[still frigate]

I'm not quite ready to start a new game, but I will soonish.

[radiant arch]

i might still manage this week if there's any need for testing

[still frigate]

I wanna get big nuke up first.

Oh, if it needs testing I'll put this on hold and jump into a new one immediately.

[shell fiber]

to compensate the tools, each round of reciepe now makes 5 instead of 2

the handycrafter toys are also a bit faster and cheaper now

[radiant arch]

that's very kind

[shell fiber]

i also would want beaver to have shoes or gloves or something as a need, but i don't really have cloth or leather

[still frigate]

@shell fiber by the by, I have not had a single zip-line related beaver incident this entire game, though I haven't made any balloon pylons.

[radiant arch]

wooden shoes work. as does bamboo shoes

as you already have the fibre making cloth from it isn't any trouble either

[shell fiber]

ooh, an other use for plant fibers 🤔 good idea !

yeah you can definitely make roman sandals with rope and pieces of wood !

[shell fiber]

yeah, but that would make me want to have several early game buildings require tarps etc, which is not practical

actually i've been itching to remove the normal roofs and replace them with some sort of decorative covered path

like a double platform with a roof on top, so you can either walk under it and have a covered power shaft, or the opposite

[radiant arch]

oh, the decorative roofs?

[shell fiber]

but maybe a tarp-based decoration

[radiant arch]

i love decorations!

[still frigate]

Not to mention clogs, geta, tengu, sabots, and albarcas.

[radiant arch]

like small lanterns hanging from poles across the path or something

[shell fiber]

yeah, realistically you shouln't really want to place those thigns on your flat roofs, that's precious place for more buildings

[radiant arch]

or a cloth roof

[shell fiber]

oh, don't get me started on getas

those things are shit

i swear, some of japanese's cultural things are only "good" because they are japanese

i tried to rent a yukata + geta set a long time ago

[still frigate]

Though that can be said of some things from most cultures.

[shell fiber]

well let's say that walking barefoot was FAR better

[radiant arch]

still love my futon^^

[shell fiber]

most things japanese are fine if you ask me, but getas ? torture devices. plain and simple

damn i really didn't do much in terms of work today 😓

[still frigate]

I have just beavered around a lot. I have two abyssal mines running and a lot more farming.

[sullen cape]

Heh that's a lot of beavers, I guess I won't spam them as much 😇
If you fill it up completely (7,500 water)
They can all last for 117 days

[spring heath]

Came across this on my facebook feed and immediately thought of this place 😂

[shell fiber]

In the end I made it 8000

[shell fiber]

Obviously bleach though 😅

[still frigate]

That is two of the large tanks, so that is nice.

[radiant arch]

surely it will only need a processor for the automated pump and silicon to fix small holes

some ballast upgrade (auto-connecting) for the tracks 🚂
only need a little scripting to make it add +10% speed or some
(just hate the part on the wide curves.. but dislike to add a 'special piece' too..)

would this count as acceptable, visually?

[shell fiber]

How are you doing that ? Adding something to the 3d models seems much easier

[still frigate]

I noticed that once I crossed around 1.5K beavers that I started having more frequent crash-to-desktop events. Is this normal for the game or am I just doing something "special" somehow?

[shell fiber]

This one looks nicer, but the ballast cold be more "rounded" 🤔

[shell fiber]

Computer running out of ram ?

[shell fiber]

Tbh I'm not super fond of the 45° angles

[still frigate]

unlikely. 64 gigs.

[shell fiber]

But when I said rails could cost waste rocks, that was just an option, you don't have to force yourself to edit all the rails models to add rocks 😅

[shell fiber]

Hmm...🤔

[still frigate]

My CPU is old enough that at this size, even on 1x speed my unpaused FPS dropped to 2/1.

1x and paused. I am zoomed in and not focused on any beaver so it isn't active animations. Plus I have a decent video card. But my CPU is a good 10+ years old. I know it is a weak link in my rig.

These numbers were at 1.2k beavers: #1070709592176197642 message

[still frigate]

@shell fiber
Also, to be clear, I am not blaming this mod. It was more of a general question since players of this mod would be more likely to have populations of this level.

[still frigate]

Speaking of weird performance... suddenly, for reasons I do not yet know, my FPS jumped to 22/13.

Hrm... it is night... I'll watch it another day and see if that is a pattern. Maybe there was just a lot of processing queued?

My beavers finished clearcutting an area and I stopped metal gathering and my FPS increased to 5/2.

Ah ha! The difference -is- night and day. There is just too much going on, I guess. 😛

EDIT: As more big tasks finish I am now getting between 4/2 and 7/4 during the day.

[still frigate]

@shell fiber doing a search for "alco" the "Hooman Underground Lab" is not matched. Looking at it unbuilt it shows alcohol production. However, once built, the recipe is for "rice fermentation and distillation". I am guessing this is why it doesn't show in a search?

EDIT: The same is true for searching for "explosives". Everything else shows in a tool search.

[iron wind]

How large are your districts? I just wonder how much of that lag might be caused by pathfinding alone (but I have zero evidence it is the culprit). With larger networks there are more options for the algorithm to go through. Even if ziplines make everything closer, they might not make the system less complex

[still frigate]

I have 2 districts. One has 1k workers. The other has 454 workers. Out of a total population of 1.9k.

This mod doesn't have any of the simple in-path district crossings. Like what was used for the gates in this one. That is a bit of a pity in this particular case.

Unfortunately I got into mega-large districts before this mod and I haven't really retrained myself to think in normal districts when I am building out so I have numerous connection points that would need separated.

[iron wind]

I've never been close to such numbers. Wow 😅 Well, it is an idea that might help a bit.

[still frigate]

Global.

The two districts. 😛

[still frigate]

Well, redistricting is not going to be easy. I cut off a largish chunk (or so I thought) and it only had 200 workers. /laughs.

Wow I have a lot of path redundancy. I have made it nearly impossible on myself to adequately chop this up.

[still frigate]

Does anyone know if a beaver will cross districts for medical care?

[still frigate]

I got split into 4 districts with the following employed:

• 190 workers
• 454 workers
• 675 workers (main industrial section)
• 235 workers

---

I am now getting from 7/5 to 10/6. So it was an improvement, but not a major one. Still, it was very much worth trying and I thank you for suggesting it.

[still frigate]

@radiant arch I have questions about your "happiness" strategy for a new game. I tend to roughly break the game into the following stages:

• broken kart (ultra early)
• new district center (early)
• SCIENCE! (early-mid)
• Trading (mid)
• ENS (late)
• nuclear (end-game)
  What do -you- do for happiness at each of these stages?

deluxe stew specific: I remember you saying you go for deluxe stew as soon as possible. Looking at the tech flowchart it looks like that can be done once one has enough science to unlock the factory and then the mechanical kitchen. Gotta also have the large farm for it to even be possible with all the stuff it needs, but it otherwise seems doable around then. Brambles look like the weak point since one wouldn't have domesticated brambles yet.

It eats 3 of each ingredient except mushrooms every 5 hours (or 0.6 items per hour) so:

• one dedicated florist can supply the brambles.
• Lilies can't be made by a florist at this stage since dirt isn't available yet. So one would need 48 plants (7x7 plot) to produce and average of 1 lily per hour, or 29 plants for the 0.6/hr minimum. That is calculated for -dedicated- lilies if you somehow disable the farming for nenuphars from getting those.
• Nenuphars are slower to grow so one needs 39 to 64 (8x8 plot) dedicated plants for nenuphars.
• NOTE: I would want water canons as soon as possible for the lilies and nenuphars unless running without badtide.
• That still leaves pumpkins, cabbage, chestnuts, peas, and mushrooms (at a rate of 1 hour).

Chestnuts look like a pain too. 24 days minimum to get a tree ready to grow nuts, which means 24 days minimum before one can make deluxe stew. At least they are immediately unlocked for planting so that can be started in the first couple of days of the kart phase.

You get 6 nuts every 8 days per tree. 32 trees should be able to do this, I think. 6x6 to be safe.

Realistically, how long does it usually take you to get to this?

[still frigate]

I'm drilling deeper before I start since my normal strategy of "oversupply the hell out of it all" has led to me having nearly 2,000 beavers and still not having achieved abyssal nuclear. 😛

[still frigate]

Gonna give it a try. I'll probably restart just as soon as @shell fiber has the next version out with the new tools requirements.

[still frigate]

For comparison, here are new game FPS stats (12 beavers):

• 305/154 paused
• 300/38 1x
• 280/50 2x
• 210/21 3x
• 1/1 30x

@radiant arch Day one started with an overflow event and badwater washing over the kart and into the pumpkins below it. 4 of my beavers are immediately unwell. 😛

By night the badwater overflow had stopped and only remained on the pumpkin level.

5 beavers were unwell by the time it had evaporated.

[still frigate]

@shell fiber Would you please give us back the horizontal and the 2 vertical power T-shafts from U6? I know the adaptive shafts fill their spots, but they are behind science. If my memory is correct the t-shafts were unlocked at the start. If my memory is wrong, then disregard this request; if I am gonna burn early science on power shafts it will be the adaptive ones. 😛

[shell fiber]

That reminds me of those old supermarkets PC "scams" where they sell overpriced PC with big specs, but the processor is actually not able to use half the ram or something, or the CPU speed is 3Ghz but other components max at 1.5Ghz😅

[still frigate]

"In its day," this was a great CPU. It is just old and slow now. 😉

It and the MB handle quad-channel RAM which was relatively rare with what was available to me at the time this was built.

[still frigate]

Here's an oldie I think I mentioned in another channel here. My first "real" PC had a 40 megabyte MFM hard drive. It came with MS-DOS 3.2, which could not deal with a partition larger than 32 MB, so the drive had to be logically split between C and D.

[still frigate]

@radiant arch My first attempt to play your map was a total failure, but in a weird way. The regular stuff; dynamite, rope, etc., was there, but -ALL- the special materials from the starting cart are nowhere to be found. So I can't progress the game at all. No library, or primitive ironworks, or anything else post new district center.

There was one CTD early on, but I think it was before I broke the kart.

I started the game with 100% building refund rate and went into change difficulty mod and it still shows 100%. So strange.

I went into dev mode and generated a new kart. Everything was there in the rubble.

[radiant arch]

used the mergeable object model spec (like fences, hedges).
will try and add some roundiness next

[radiant arch]

need to check this again! do you know what overflowed? the aqueduct right above the starter position?

did you adjust freeflow settings?

for the wellbeing and deluxe stew, will sum it up later

[shell fiber]

classic issue 😉

[shell fiber]

not that i know of

[shell fiber]

don't remember but i had some ideas regarding that, there's an odd chance i might be able to duplicate and amputate the omni-shaft to remake the various T-intersections (honestly i liked it better)

[shell fiber]

i kind of feel bad when your discussions remind me of some balance changes that i had thought about then forgot, but i had plans to push the deluxe stew to the ENS rather than the Mech Kitchen.

i should also seriously consider making a clockwork chestnut farm 🤔

or maybe a bot chestnut harvesting flag or somethign

the fact that it is not automatable seems sub-optimal

also, for some reason, i had a revelation yesterday

about the side platfomrs

some of the woes i had were because you generally don't want to let the basic overhang plaform be attached to something that visually wouldn't support it. for example a basic overhang on a megaplarform

because the lower part of the overhang would be pushing against... well nothing
so i realized the solution could simply be to make it all squewer-type.

but my testing also showed that overhangs could be placed directly on terrain walls, so i'll likely change things toward that.

[radiant arch]

grauschweif approach to well-being

1. broken cart era 12+; +15% speed, +40% working

   +7 basic needs
   +1 river bath / shower
   +1 braised cabbage
   +1 sunflower seeds
   +1 berries
   +2/3chestnut beer
   +1 news board

2. pre-science ~20; +15% speed, +60 / 80% working

   +1/2 pentanque
   +1/2 kimchi
   +1/2 sake
   (+1 lido)

3. early science ~30; +30% speed, +100 / 120% working

   +2/3 soda
   +1 roof
   (+2 lemonade)
   +2 comic books
   +1 public fountain
   +3/4 pumpkin chips

4. trading 40+; +40% / 50% speed, +160% working

   +2 lotus tea
   +6 small statues
   +2 trading balloon
   +2 observation platform
   +2-5 deluxe stew
   +1 toys

5. ENS 60+; +60% speed, +240% working

   other stews, drinks
   trebutchet
   exercise plaza
   (frog statue)
   big statues (low-priority)

6. nuclear 90-120.. 80-95% speed, 300-320% working (145-210% age)
   statue of dunking
   foreign foods
   whaterver else was missing

   the wonder 🙂

something like that

but paced. well-being is nice, but not the first i go after (from trading onward)
depending on map/ badtides takes me ~34-60 cycles to complete. but often do longer to play with things more or add the last boost to wellbeing just for fun

[radiant arch]

deluxe stew:

it actually only needs a few of them at first. just enough to cover medical needs.
i only try to cover everyone by mid-ENS stage, when i start scaling up my farming.

if i can't have enough lotus i go for early drill (i usually prefer them over medium mining coal). one florist is good enough.
but usually blowing some lido-hole for a couple of them (5x5 or 5x10) and a temporary crane for planting is plenty.
and yes, chestnuts are a much demanded resource and i start planting plenty early on

but pretty sure lapan will nerf that again.

as medical beds now use less resources it's less important to go for them early though

btw: beavers can outrun bots 🙂

[still frigate]

Sorry about the delay. I had to take a bit of a nap.

Anyway, I am mostly sure it was the aqueduct unless it came from even higher. Here are my ebb&flow settings and I have attached my modable weather export.

[still frigate]

Go for it if ya want. I don't mind having to change up my strategies. I'm trying something new anyway.

[radiant arch]

that's defaults minus contaminations.. those work for me.
do you have free flow enabled on top? (i not tested the last changes without tbh)

[still frigate]

yes. Free flow is always on for me since I found it. 😛

It looks liek it might overflow.

[radiant arch]

odd. sorry!

it is set to almost overflow for sure

[still frigate]

Yep. There she went!

[radiant arch]

yet as the drain is stronger than the sources it usually not changes at all during monsoon

[still frigate]

day 1 @ 04:26 in-game time.

[radiant arch]

yeah, i believe you on that

[still frigate]

Looks like there are overflows in a couple of places right at start.

[radiant arch]

will need to come up with some solution to that 🙂

[still frigate]

I wouldn't worry about it really. It corrects quickly.

[radiant arch]

spoiling half your beavers is kinda mean, isn't it?

[still frigate]

Well, that was when I didn't know it would happen. I've redirected them to other tasks. I think they only got sick because I had most of the work on the lower level so they kept being in it.

Is this decorative or functional?

[radiant arch]

hmm.. looks like some late-night changes might have needed some more review..

[still frigate]

The first time I tried it, when it hit me so hard, that mini logging station in the upper left was running and I had a farmhouse under construction.

[radiant arch]

the spiling to that degree was unintended

[radiant arch]

decorative

[still frigate]

It has already stopped, just before end of workday. The overflow only remains on that lower level.

This time I had one kit get sick. Everyone else seems okay.

[radiant arch]

lower level is supposed to stay 'safe' if you not mess with any flows..

where else would you farm early on?

will try and fix this today. might be just a missing block..

[still frigate]

It was my choice for farming and chestnuts.

[radiant arch]

too bad you not used badtides 🙂
they had my population killed on my first try

[still frigate]

Your advice on the map download page said not to! /laughs

My complements on a totally inconspicuous whitepaw skill gate here.

It caught me and messed up my plans the first time. I was gonna have my district center at the top of it.

I settled for here instead. Going to do it again this game.

[radiant arch]

you want a fix for the spilling? (it still will spill a little at times, but should not by far reach the stairs)

[still frigate]

Did you already do it? If not, no worries.

[radiant arch]

did fix it for me, yes
~20 minutes to push it to mod.io i'd say.

[still frigate]

Nah. I'll keep going with this version. But maybe for other people you should.

[radiant arch]

set this one to -6 and added the one across (another -6)

[still frigate]

Is that here?

Looks like you added a dirt block under that new one?

[radiant arch]

it's odd. as if the base game changed some flow suddenly.

[still frigate]

You must have used a sky water source for that new one? Anyway, map is edited.

[still frigate]

Almost wish this could be pinned, even if it is going to change soon.

[radiant arch]

made two more changes: (and uploaded to mod.io)
on your image right from that source: one level below 3 blocks are missing (the backflow is causing much of the spill)
the water source inside the hidden cave (just next to the aqueduct) was oddly set to 3.33!! 1.5 was intended..

[radiant arch]

it's basically just 'go for what's available + cheap at that point'

[still frigate]

These are the blocks you filled?

[radiant arch]

opposite them

oh, wait. your water drain is one level too low too..

[still frigate]

here?

[radiant arch]

sorry.. should have made screen shots 🙂

that one, yes. the upper three of them. the lower was left out for badwater pumping

my mistake for late night changing that one..

i'll go and hide some now 🙂

[still frigate]

Verifying I have this correct by layer.

I am not sure what water source you are referencing in this part? the water source inside the hidden cave (just next to the aqueduct) was oddly set to 3.33!! 1.5 was intended..

[radiant arch]

this one. lvl40

[still frigate]

Gotcha. Fixed.

[still frigate]

You don't have them anymore, or they don't work with U7?

[shell fiber]

The deluxe stew no longer heals beavers 🤐

[radiant arch]

that was the most fun feature

[still frigate]

Since I have only ever used it once for healing, I'm not as attached to that.

[shell fiber]

But that made the med beds pointless

[still frigate]

true

[radiant arch]

it's not important anymore i guess. if those come later than the clinic

[still frigate]

Yeah, if the ENS will be making it.

[radiant arch]

if deluxe stew not heals: could just use a scroll from the library too, like with clinics?

or just have the mecha kitchens unchanged otherwise?

[still frigate]

I'm not sure what happened last time, but it is fine this time.

[still frigate]

@radiant arch layers 1-4... 🤣

I have decision paralysis when trying to decide early science unlocks. There is so much I want and only 100 points! 😛

[radiant arch]

isn't it always??

actually what to go for first?

i usually go for: medical bed (injury, sickness), small badwater pump, distillery, alchemist

[still frigate]

I did alchemist.

I almsot never unlock the small badwater pump.

[radiant arch]

oh, btw, if you go checker-board with the bamboo it is infinite resource for fibres (they grow back naturally

[still frigate]

Nice! Like I do brambles

[radiant arch]

you go for big badwater pump early?

[still frigate]

yep.

[radiant arch]

interesting

[still frigate]

This map looks like it wants to change my mind.

[radiant arch]

it's fair either way

[still frigate]

There is no good early access place for a stack of large pumps.

[radiant arch]

small pump isn't too efficient, yet much less contaminated beavers and doubled library output or around that

[radiant arch]

oh: it's mines. you are supposed to dig walls 🙂

[still frigate]

Yeah, I sorta hate the buckets. /laughs
But they fit the flavour of the early game.

[radiant arch]

so true

[still frigate]

Well, yeah, but that is science unlocks to be able to do that. Early science sitll needs badwater for the brain shrooms.

[still frigate]

@radiant arch You got me! I thought I had ruined my tunnel. The I realized ||that what I am seeing is the transparent floor there under the end of the drill.||

[shell fiber]

by design

[still frigate]

@radiant arch You know... mines aren't very zipline friendly. 😛

[radiant arch]

not? i used only very little dynamite to connect them very nicely 🙂

like right through the middle of those stairs, through the front gate, up the hillside, straight hole going across the length of the aqueduct

[still frigate]

I've had to cut tunnels and sink pylons into holes, especially down near the garden area.

[radiant arch]

even had my only scavenger next to the flooded scrap metal cave

[radiant arch]

tbh: i incrementally used to set dynamites and check which collided with the zipline to get none-straight holes through walls

[still frigate]

This one, right?

[radiant arch]

yep, isn't that one very kind to access and so much in it!

used it to water the berries left from there

[still frigate]

I was feeling "creative" and put a spiral stair all the way to the very bottom in the 4x4 hole.

[radiant arch]

that's different from just blowing a channel towards the lake^^

[radiant arch]

or using a passthrough-lodge

good thing you not chose badtides!

they can stay for weeks down there!

[still frigate]

Yeah, it looks like it can be pretty nasty down there.

[radiant arch]

well, i was kind enough to not have the monsoon push it upwards too much 🙂

[still frigate]

I'm currently enjoying a monsoon.

[radiant arch]

should i have made it worse? (it only really hits from 4th day on i believe)

[still frigate]

It hasn't really done any damage. At least not yet.

[radiant arch]

oh, it likely wont do much bad

[still frigate]

I may turn up my settings next time I run this map after the next update drops.

[radiant arch]

put in effort to not make it deadly

[still frigate]

I learned that one can enter a medium mine from the bottom.

[radiant arch]

very creative use of the space!

[still frigate]

Thank you. Oh, and I found your "scrap" tree! 😉

[radiant arch]

only considered putting those drills down next to the farms..

btw: where do you get the water from?

[still frigate]

I had power up there since it was the badwater aqueduct. Of course I have run power all the way down to the lake, but I hadn't done that when I put in the drills.

[still frigate]

??? To what water are you referring?

[radiant arch]

front lake can run dry pretty fast during droughts i thought

[still frigate]

I hadn't noticed. It has a lot of water sources.

[radiant arch]

different without any contamination - very interesting

[still frigate]

These almsot look like animal heads. Nice job.

[radiant arch]

did you use another district for that farm? (it should be like 200 away from the gate? without zipline)

[still frigate]

Nope. Single district again.

I found the cliffside entrance to it.

[radiant arch]

could have gone for checkerboard cabbage 🤔

[still frigate]

I'm too lazy. I don't have the planter tool installed.

[radiant arch]

must look real good with diagonals of red, green and pumpkin... need to try this some time!

[still frigate]

Yeah, that would look cool.

This was the most challenging zip line bit to place so far.

[radiant arch]

what kind of building is that 3x2x2 with the planked upper floor?

[still frigate]

That I am using a lot of?

Crate Storage housing.

Only needs logs and is open at start.

[radiant arch]

hmm. never used one before

interesting

using a methane storage this early too.

[still frigate]

Not super early. I've got a normal school up. (just barely)

[radiant arch]

i barely build them with airships

and not often for need

[still frigate]

The 70 metal hurts for those gas tanks. At least when one is relying on the Factory for metal beams

I'm not being as efficient as I had planned. My population is up to 312. Still, by ENS last game I think I had hit 1K.

[shell fiber]

can make them cheaper. i don't want them made out of scrapmetal because that would seem like a leaky mess, but i can bring the cost down to 50 MetalBlocks

you probably won't be building a lot anyway

[still frigate]

Naw. The game needs to hurt. 😉

[radiant arch]

not sure it even matters if they cost more or less with how few you need. (it's fine to go without them too – for most of the game – even though slightly less convenient)

[shell fiber]

hmm... the sandal icon is not very readable

[shell fiber]

freshly summoned into existence 🙂

[shell fiber]

i wanted to make the need give a bonus, but the game still (sadly) doesn't allow for that, only penalties for negative needs. which can actually give a boost, but that's complicated.
so i just gave -10% workspeed without tools, and -10% walk speed without sandals.

i asked chatGPT for ideas and maybe i could do a backpack (increase carry cap) or maybe some fluffy pillow.

but it i also add cloth or something like that i would also need a weaver etc, so i'll probably stay away from that.

either way, the idea is that those needs would be pretty much impossible to sustain through the miserable output of the florist, you'd need to actively grow and cut giant bamboo, and a proper ropemaker running

[heavy lodge]

still, you can have negative penalty => positive boost (until dev's decide to not allow such a horror 🤣 )

[shell fiber]

yeah but that's sloppy, and the beaver AI would not consume these items.
it's a clunky but workable solution for faster swimming though 🙂

[heavy lodge]

and, for building path, also. Look what if Emberpelts are on wooden path 🤣

[shell fiber]

how does this one work ? if the path has a size zero aura, that's easy, but that also affects beavers that are above and under i believe...

[heavy lodge]

true about above and under, but, that's life on Timberborn ...

[radiant arch]

been pondering if there was the other way too: shorten distance over such paths?

that's what i wanted to explore for my track upgrades (as i hated the ranged effects and those are broken for choo choo anyway..)

[shell fiber]

The nav mesh setting script asks for a movement cost, but I'm not sure it's taken into account on normally walkable floors

[radiant arch]

yeah, wont help with sandals. those would need to apply buffs, if the need was filled positive

[radiant arch]

that one's actually fun to play with! thanks for pointing that out!

[radiant arch]

@shell fiber you'd want a patch dll / script to enable FavourableNeedSpec? (exactly like penalties, just positive)

made a short single script using only Harmony (could not inject otherwise) to enable the specs, function and the popup descriptions of the effects

not yet made the green !-mark show up -> that's double the code and i not really need it myself

[shell fiber]

Oh that's really cool !
Yeah sure if you're fine with me integrating this directly into the mod I would do that 😊

[radiant arch]

just realised it's missing a small line under the global bonus and fixing that one

will give you my script later today

[shell fiber]

Any chance you could also overwrite the swim speed and the water conversion rate like in Luke's mods ?😅

[radiant arch]

sure. just i'm super slow 🙂

and 'stealing' timberborn code is one thing to adapt it, but luke's code i'd need to ask him i guess

[shell fiber]

Well I've been bashing my head at this for a while and have done zero progress so you're already doing much better than me 🤣

[radiant arch]

oh, i'm happy to code some. much easier than the visuals tbh

so, what do you want of the swim speed and lukes code?

[shell fiber]

I already asked him and he said I could copy his code or whatever but just for the sake of politeness you probably should ask him directly 🤔

[radiant arch]

the one that increases water-per-voxel output from pumps?

[shell fiber]

Yeah

[radiant arch]

and swim speed?

[shell fiber]

And the swim speed

[radiant arch]

you want to adjust the penalty?

do you have numbers, by how much to adjust either?

[shell fiber]

Yeah I wanted to make beavers have +100% speed while his mod's default is +50%

[radiant arch]

so, same as walking?

[shell fiber]

oh, ah no, the base game makes beaver swim with -30% speed apparently, Luke's mod default setting overwrites this to +50%, but i wanted +100%

so they would go twice faster in water

but the most important by far is the water per voxel, since making dams to store water is not interesting at 5/voxel (default) i wanted to make it 10/voxel

[radiant arch]

will look into it. but might take a week (busy from monday on)

[shell fiber]

No prob, take your time 🫡

If you can pull this thorn from my side I'm happy even if it takes a while

[radiant arch]

here's the FavourableNeedSpec
to enable it:
either put text files into ./Scripts/NeedFavor of your Unity project
or put dll into ./Scripts of your timberborn mod

with that you can add favours to any Need (for any type of Bonus). it will be applied and shown when hovering need label or bonus modfier in character UI.

// some Need.Beaver.XXX.json
{
  "NeedSpec" { .. },
  "FavorableNeedSpec": {
    "Favors": [
      {
        "Id": "WorkingSpeed",
        "MultiplierDelta": 0.5
      },
      {
        "Id": "GrowthSpeed",
        "MultiplierDelta": 0.4
      }
    ]
  }
}

visuals: when need is fulfilled it shows at both points. when it's <= 0 it not shows. no further indicator (like the red ! with penalties).

so fun 🙂

[shell fiber]

ah, thanks ! great !
"put that file here and it works" is the kind of modding i feel confident with 🤣

i'll try to load it in now 🙂

or when unity will stop choking on it 😉

[radiant arch]

that was a two-line basically. not even looked for luke's code. so here you are.

sets swimming penalty to -1.0 (=+100% speed) from original 0.3 (-30%).

[shell fiber]

hurray !

[radiant arch]

i hate unity with a passion 🙂

you know by chance if it's only the 'WaterGoodToWaterAmountConverter' that needs patching to get more water from voxel too?

[shell fiber]

i didn't look in the guts of this one

but Luke has all his stuff public in his github

i suspect it's just changing a value

his mod also does a lot of things to pump pipe length etc

[radiant arch]

yeah, it looks like it only is that one number

[shell fiber]

but i only want to increase the amount of water in water

[radiant arch]

will quickly test if it breaks anything

[shell fiber]

thanks !

i actually need to take a shower, so i'll probably just test everything at once 🙂

[radiant arch]

sure. enjoy your beaver time!

[shell fiber]

i'm back, and with a few new ideas through the magic of shower thoughts

i can also add pouches or backpacks or whatever (plant fibers/rope + metal fixations, made in the ropemaker maybe)

i can add perfume (lotus flower + strong alcohol in the alchemist)

i can add resin-scented pillows for sweet forest dreams (plant fiber + resin, but where ?)

[radiant arch]

you'd need a sewers hut?

or something that combines clothmaking + sewing?

[shell fiber]

ultimately the goal would be to have some goods that are actually valuable and that would reasonnably be sought after by other beavers factions, unlike just random fried rice or spicy soda

[shell fiber]

yeah, that's a good idea

right now the handicrafter is a bit too busy i think

[radiant arch]

code does not break anything. but realised i can't see how much water is in water ...

[shell fiber]

hurray !

i can try, no issue 🙂

[shell fiber]

is sewer the right term ? it seems like the waste water sewers

[radiant arch]

no idea tbh..

seamstress i guess

my brain is no good switching from code to language haha

[shell fiber]

well code is sort of a language no ?

[radiant arch]

yeah, that's the trouble!

tailor works too. .hmm..

needleworker..

too many options 🤯

so excited to test those changes and see how new items make beavers more unique and all

[shell fiber]

i think seamstress is probably the most accurate but i'm not sure how recognizable it is for the average person

[radiant arch]

oh. that 26m² pond gave ~200 units!!

that's more than before, isn't it?

[shell fiber]

tailor might be easier but i don't really plan to make clothes

[radiant arch]

yeah, only know the term since my granny was one

clothmaker is fine too

[stiff flint]

Seamstress or tailor is better.... sewer had me thinking about waste removal

[shell fiber]

26m3 should be 125 ish

so yeah, that's probably correct

if you factor in evaporation

[radiant arch]

well, wasn't overflowing. so yeah

also: those upgraded pumps just suck it dry with a little wellbeing..

btw: favors work unrelated to wellbeing. so you can freely chose if item gives favor, wellbeing or both with the need.
can even give favor and penalty for same need i guess^^

not sure how rebalancing the wellbeing will play out. but likely giving them another huge boost earlier will boost production a lot and ease endgame. (technically allow fewer beavers too)

[shell fiber]

hmm that doesn't seem to work for me 🤔

wait were your scripts meant to work with or without Luke's mod ?

[radiant arch]

work on their own