#Water Beaver Overhaul

1 messages · Page 46 of 1

still frigate
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Not sure I have ever supported deluxe stew in significant quantities. Mushroom stew, yes!

radiant arch
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btw: i do build stew storage. and when the numbers go way down i have plenty time to act 🙂

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it's usually around the nursery unlocking that i get deluxe stew enough to replace medical bed needs.
and other stews only around foundry time or so

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more for the well-being than anything

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hmm.. not one of my 30+ balloons has any methane anymore.. lazy haulers^^

shell fiber
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i personnally barely ever use the fast mushroom reciepe, just a waste of manbeaverpower to me, plus my sawdust is used fast enough for dynamite and paper.

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i like the neat crop rows though 😊

still frigate
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I just have a LOT of beavers dedicated to sawdust. /laughs.

still frigate
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You had a screen shot with red and green cabbage in an alternating pattern. I liked it.

shell fiber
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that's why it exists in the first place 😅

still frigate
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Gotta remember, I am realitvely new to the water beavers mod. I didn't play mods in U6 until I started to help test this mod. So I missed all the discussions and revelations that came in the past.

shell fiber
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not anymore, they are regulat foods now, but can't be overeaten

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i wonder if it wouldn't be better for the deluxe stew to be made in the ENS 🤔
i mean, that is the ultimate reciepe, only developped by the most prominent food specialist, doctor of culinary arts 😅

still frigate
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Maybe a gourmet chef building?

radiant arch
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well.. 2nd or 4th ENS.. why not..

still frigate
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I can't recall ever making a second ENS.

radiant arch
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not?

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haha

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tbh: deluxe stew is really hard to get any decent amounts of till late mid-game anyway

still frigate
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Multiple libraries, yes

radiant arch
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requiring a ENS scroll wouldn't add that much hurdle maybe

still frigate
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If it is a degree it can't be copied

radiant arch
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a single kitchen can easily serve 500 beavers with stew i believe

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or mine makes around 350 currently. likely going up to 450 with enough well-being

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maybe this insane amount of food and water (and methane, logs, ..) is what keeps my haulers so busy..

still frigate
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@shell fiber Can you make something (a dynamic news board perhaps?) that tells how many builders and how many haulers the colony and/or district has???

radiant arch
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regarding performance of buildings: the mecha pumps are kinda very unproductive and hard to use..
an upgraded pump can go around 150 to 180 water a day with good well-being.
a mecha pump is 240 but requires planks, shafts and special water levels.
also mecha pumps are hard to put in rows without lowering water too much down the line.

radiant arch
still frigate
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I have bemoaned not having those figures since day 1 using this mod.

radiant arch
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a single wood burner barely can keep up with a single advanced sawmills output.. unexpected..

still frigate
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Um... how much water can the balloon landing pads take before they are flooded?

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I may need to rebuild mine before the next monsoon.

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I'm also not sure this was intended, but I like it! (Over the advanced mine!)

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radiant arch
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regarding fried rice: the costs are difficult to cover early in game imho.

lotus can't be made by florist yet (no dirt) and is needed for tea more than food even (ENS scrolls, ENS)
sunflower oil is rarely enough for anything too
rice by this point is limited for sake too (for medical beds)

so it's really hard for many maps to get more than the ENS uses up really imho
and other stews are 'cheaper' for the same effect. or saving water with lotus tea rather than food needs

still frigate
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Like solar power. Although in this map, solar power may be my salvation. The badwater sources are some of the hardest things to get to on the map and they are clustered together making them hard to use for interim nuclear. So between large water wheels and abyssal advanced nuclear... hrm...

Of course I have a LOT of places for large water wheels! I have 8 running now and room for more.

radiant arch
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36 days and 360 beer/ 480 resin of double-trading for one solar plant for 400hp.. (at most half a big wheel).. that's not really an option, is it?
and when there's a foundry to make the solar panels it's usually not too far to go for nuclear power.

still frigate
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Good point.

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Glass probably should happen sooner if solar is to be viable.

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I could make a good argument for glass to be made in the factory. You would need one more factory to prevent recipe swapping, which would be an acceptable sacrifice.

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If something can melt metal for steel, it can turn sand to glass.
To make steel, a high temperature, generally between 1400-1550°C (2600-2800°F), is required to melt the iron and other alloying elements.
To melt most common types of glass, a furnace needs to reach temperatures between 1400 and 1600 degrees Celsius (2550 to 2910 degrees Fahrenheit).

In my earlier years pottery was one of my many, many hobbies. Some of it still survives even if I can't make new stuff. I did both earthenware and stoneware. Also, FYI, glaze means glass. Lazy AI/wiki searches:
Earthenware clay typically matures at a firing temperature range of 1745°F to 2012°F (950°C to 1100°C). This range is often referred to as "low-fire". Within this range, the specific temperature depends on the particular clay and glaze being used.
Stoneware clay needs to be fired at high temperatures to become durable and non-porous. Typically, stoneware is fired to cone 10 (2381°F or 1305°C) or within the range of cone 8-12 (2305-2340°F or 1263-1326°C).
Glaze is essentially a mixture of powdered materials, including a glass former (like silica), a flux (to aid melting), and a stabilizer, that melts and fuses to the clay body in the kiln.

radiant arch
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nah.. glass is fine late imho..

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i did sometimes consider solar panels for off-grid use. but there's not too many maps that's helpful.

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plus building a 200 tile shaft line is cheap 🙂

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having the option to build one does certainly add to the fun imho

still frigate
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Beavers aren't humans of course, but in the real world, glass dates about to about 3500 BCE. Early steel was discovered around 1300 BCE.

radiant arch
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yeah, but "glass" and "glass" are different in that. when was modern plane glass made first?

still frigate
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Good question. I'll look that up.

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Wow! A --LOT-- later! 1600s Plate glass was first invented in France during the 17th century.

radiant arch
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see. that's another level of difficult

still frigate
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I concede the point, my good fellow.

radiant arch
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give credit to lapan for being really strict on those details 🙂

still frigate
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Sheet glass was invented in Germany in the 11th century, but it was much cruder.

radiant arch
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the zipline tower has invisible blocking on one side
not sure it is easy to see, but the small tower under the pylon is visually 2x1 blocks, but seems to occupy 2x2

ziptower_invisibleblock.png
still frigate
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Fascinating side track. Evidence of stained-glass windows in churches and monasteries can be found as early as the 7th century. I could probably find more if I dug deeper, but then I'd be reaching levels of absurdity. 😛
(Wouldn't be the first time!)

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Regarding balloon platforms flooding; they do not. But the balloon itself does. I would personally call this an oversight. @shell fiber would you concur?

shell fiber
shell fiber
still frigate
shell fiber
shell fiber
still frigate
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What uses the glass aside from solar panels and the gigantic storages?

shell fiber
shell fiber
radiant arch
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centrifuge!

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some of the robo farms

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unlocking the foundry is actually a pretty big deal

shell fiber
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i didn't really do anything in that direction yet, but since trade is accessible much earlier, i want to make solar pannels (the item) more useful early game. pretty sure one of the uses will be an artificial water source that i'll try to make in the same shape as a forester

radiant arch
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like a leaky bath with solar pump?

still frigate
shell fiber
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since the water source script doesn't listen to... well anything... having it powered by solar cells is the best way to make 2 birds one stone

radiant arch
shell fiber
still frigate
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Trade should always cost more than making your own.

radiant arch
shell fiber
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except you can build it

radiant arch
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oh.. that's cool too

shell fiber
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and it will get polluted as any source

radiant arch
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and dry out ..

shell fiber
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yes

radiant arch
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that's pretty awesome actually

still frigate
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Ooh! Hopefully "ebb and flow" will affect it too!

shell fiber
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in principle yes

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is there anything you can think off that could be powered by solar cells ?

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ooh 🤔

radiant arch
shell fiber
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maybe a solar kitchen or something idiotic like that ?🤔

radiant arch
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haha

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love that!

still frigate
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A solar beaver spa! 😛

radiant arch
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yeah, that or a fountain or something 'extra'

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early and early mid-game is pretty solid already

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small lanterns would be nice. but a full solar cell is too much for them

still frigate
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Here's the thing: I have a LOT of ideas, but in reality there is very little actually wrong.

still frigate
radiant arch
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hmm.. for solar water source: output would be very very little? like 0.1?

radiant arch
still frigate
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/laughs

radiant arch
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hmm.. the worst feature about the falling beavers might be that they get replaced by kits..
always got a solid 2-3% homeless and sometimes 20% or more kits..

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and the want for a "select-next-stuck"-keycode..

shell fiber
shell fiber
radiant arch
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so making new paths now..

belowthezipline.png
still frigate
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Though the sacrifice of many a brave beaver, my colony is redirecting the massive badwater flow in the corner of the map. There is a combined strength of 345 badwater and all of it that can reach the surface flows out of those ruins!

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radiant arch
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just wondering.. could the housing optimizer script be actually responsible for my high kit count? i notice a sudden fluctuation of 'unhoused' and 'reassigned' beavers and suddenly get stuck at 10% homeless

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maybe the ones from falling beavers actually aren't that many?

still frigate
radiant arch
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only really noticing it since 300+ beavers. but it's somewhat 'big' now with 600.. (180 kits) + 60 homeless

still frigate
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The large number of kits is because of all the housing I built in the previous image. ;P

radiant arch
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80s would be around usual.. hadn't had so few for a long time

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wait.. why is your well-being 19?? weird^^

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mine's like 80+ now

still frigate
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My highest this playthough has been 24.

radiant arch
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don't only feed them awful stew! haha

still frigate
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Working on it.

radiant arch
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mine usually finish around 110 or 120

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that 3x working bonus is insane

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oh, wait. . 80

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is around 4x working speed, 2,2x walking and 2,3x life span

still frigate
radiant arch
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they only eat it when they literally starve

still frigate
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I followed your advice in a couple of places.

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radiant arch
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nice collection of raw foods!

spring heath
radiant arch
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i hope not

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haha

radiant arch
# still frigate Working on it.

beavers seem to prefer fetching things from storage. placing a cheap few decorations around there might easily bring well-being up to 30s or 40s. like in front of the central water tank or zipline access.
i found it helpful to place entertainment close too, as they use more of it, the less they need to walk between things.

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oh.. i do have an abyss reactor.. never noticed 🥳

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weirdly it's 70 tiles above and 80 across from the next industry..

still frigate
radiant arch
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that's interesting too!

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likely very different speed and approach

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just poked at it in case you liked to see them work really really hard 🙂

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(personally i'm just too impatient to have ENS take more than 4 days for a scroll)

stiff flint
abstract vector
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Medium pile for whatever you're mining

radiant arch
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looks like cold storage visual broke with U7?

cold_storage.png
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figured out why i get so many homeless...
those are all fallen down beavers.
dropping the housing-optimiser script did change nothing..

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looks like around 30% of all my beavers fall by now and my network is just overused..

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or at least 30%. every day. some even starve..

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losing at least 1-2 hours of productivity on average per day

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wished i could tell why this happens 😢

still frigate
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Yeah, those numbers are getting really rough.

radiant arch
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well, the flabbergasting 20% relocating workers at peak hours isn't surprising me now. maybe i can find a good strategy to counter this later. now that i know what level of problem this is/ what it causes in detail to my map (some fall-points have 200+ tiles to walk to next station)

sullen cape
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Hmm I haven't got a single fallen beaver, but I've been planning my lines and buildings staircases so there are only maybe 2-4 tiles on my map where they could get stuck...

radiant arch
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i only get notices for 3-4 a day when actively dynamiting and triggering it from builders

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just watched them closely and seen them fall&walk at around 20 to 30 times as often as they get stuck. silently

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as my map is huge this is plainly visible in "homeless" too, as they take a while to reach anything to re-assign

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so 'getting stuck' is a rare problem. 'fallen' is much worse (yet it only seems to happen when path updates are triggered. like connecting new buildings, joining path branches, dynamites..)

still frigate
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tip: when transitioning to mechanical water pumps, always have plenty of manual ones in reserve for droughts... especially if all of your power depends on waterwheels.

image.png
radiant arch
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another tip: water pumps scale with well-being (they can go up to around 5x productivity technically)

still frigate
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I got mine back up to 23 before the drought. Slowly improving my decoration.

nova crescent
nova crescent
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I can reproduce this now.

  1. Beaver get stuck from zipline (WhitePaws faction)
  2. Unstuckify (Mod) fails to unstuck them. Beaver bounces back and forth from the town center.
  3. If I click the unstuck button manually it causes the game to crash with same error.
radiant arch
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that's new!

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highly recommended to not set unstuckify to "automated" with the current behaviour

nova crescent
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yup trying with the automatic one disabled. Need to see where my beaver is getting stuck.

still frigate
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We haven't yet been able to fully explain why they are getting stuck.

radiant arch
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does this hint to the problem or is this post-problem behaviour? (likely? with the unstuckify triggering?)

at Timberborn.ZiplineMovementSystem.ZiplineVisitor.ExitZipline () [0x00011] in <346306eac6cc46469ebe2a716b14c650>:0 
at Timberborn.ZiplineMovementSystem.ZiplineVisitor.OnAssignedDistrictChanged (System.Object sender, System.EventArgs e) [0x00022] in <346306eac6cc46469ebe2a716b14c650>:0 
at (wrapper delegate-invoke) <Module>.invoke_void_object_EventArgs(object,System.EventArgs)
at Timberborn.GameDistricts.Citizen.UnassignDistrict () [0x00036] in <b538c25730f542e691a8aa6413c52972>:0 
at Unstuckify.UnstuckingSystem.UnstuckifyService.Unstuckify (Timberborn.GameDistricts.Citizen citizen) [0x0001c] in <53c43bb5e9c64e479039d97aff98e225>:0 
at Unstuckify.UnstuckingSystem.UnstuckifyComponent.Tick () [0x00015] in <53c43bb5e9c64e479039d97aff98e225>:0
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at least the unstuckify (auto-mode) is trying to warp them when they are still 'on line'

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but technically they 'lost district' while so

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wished i could debug this.. yet dunno how 🙃 (want the zipline feature without the falling. plus my colony is starving from excess kits being hungry kits.. )

still frigate
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Interesting! I just watched my number of stranded beavers go from 2 to 1. No new beavers show as dead. I thought I saw this happen before but I wasn't certain.

radiant arch
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they somehow can get unstuck, yes

still frigate
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I did not know that. I wonder how?

radiant arch
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no idea. looked like they finally found a way maybe? (like lagging before) or some internal rescue routine .. no idea

still frigate
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@shell fiber We still have flying beavers. I just watched several of them fly to the metal rather than do gown the ladder. They do go back up the ladder though.

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silent kindle
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Hate to go back to an old question but I'm struggling with this. I've tried blowing a hole to go two deep and putting steps down but the farmhouse loses pathing when it gets two steps away if you get what I mean. I can't get the lotus depth right!!

image.png
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If anyone could help I'd really appreciate it LoveFT

still frigate
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Sure.

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The farmhouse has to be able to reach that 2nd level down. You need it a lot closer to where you are trying to plant lilies.

One trick is to build enough platforms to raise the farmhouse up one level so it doesn't flood. Then stairs down from it into the water. Here is one of mine. In my case I built it two up, but that isn't necessary.

image.png
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A top-down look and you can see it covers a lot of area.

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radiant arch
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you can flood farmhouse up to 1m

still frigate
radiant arch
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oh, you use a P&L under it? only ever used ladders directly 🤔

still frigate
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I have done both.

radiant arch
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you can attach the ladder from below too, no need to use the door

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but the p&l is nice too

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more workers

still frigate
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This is a two-unit P&L stack with exits on the farm side and the main base.

image.png image.png
radiant arch
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interesting

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i lately only build balloon endpoints for lakes, also often skip the road to things with ziplines

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maybe should try some 'rural town' style too more often (yours looks good)

still frigate
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Thanks.

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@silent kindle I hope my explanation above helps. You don't need to worry about pit&ladder buildings under it if you don't want to. That is just an option I like. 🙂

silent kindle
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Thank you so much, I didn't realise the range dropped off so much with the levels! I need to get used to using the ladders as well, so this is a really helpful explanation.

still frigate
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The ladders help, but stairs work too. I just had the resources for ladders here.

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Curved stairs are a good option too and don't need the metal that ladders need.

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radiant arch
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stairs do lower range in all but one direction. ladders don't

still frigate
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Yep. Give and take. Again depends on resources and what I'm going for.

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This was more for looks than efficient functionality.

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@shell fiber Also noted that I regularly get multiple beavers stuck on this.

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radiant arch
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does by chance anyone know the internal name of the folktails zipline station? does not seem to be ZiplineStation.Folktails?? (tried to activate it for testing with whitepaws)

still frigate
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Getting a good monsoon this cycle!

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@shell fiber Minor bug: Synchronized adjacent floodgates don't always change in sync. But sometimes they do.

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radiant arch
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those are not adjacent, aren't they?

still frigate
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Yep. That is the height setting difference.

radiant arch
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that's weird

still frigate
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height difference of 1.4 vs 1.9 (originally)

nova crescent
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@still frigate , @radiant arch How you guys are playing with this beaver falling and getting stuck in weird places?

I didn't notice them because of unstuckify. But now that I turned off auto unstuck it's very much noticeable.

still frigate
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Manually unsticking them. I was crashing with it on automatic.

radiant arch
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plainly: it's super super annoying

nova crescent
radiant arch
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did some more testing and asset ripping and might understand lapan's reaction to this: wtf..

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needs a keycode for sure for "select next stuck beaver"

still frigate
radiant arch
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my unuseful report after a long long hour of disbelief:

Running a more specialised testfile (including emberpelts levee-zipline)
200 beavers and wildly triggering path updates for days

* falling off (frequently; if at either end of line)
   + balloon relay
   + balloon endpoint
   + tree nursery add-on

* falling off (rare / maybe other reason) *later added with more reports*
   + junkyard
   + farmhouse add-on
   + zipline tower                (reported by others)

* never witnessed (lines _only_ including those)
   + zipline small tower        (connected to itself, tower)
   + zipline pylon                (connected to itself, tower)
   + emberpelt levee zipline    (connected to itself)

QUESTION: could you confirm any falls with only the lower group?

So far it looks like a vanilla-version vs lapan-version (edit but two different frequencies maybe).

QUESTION: what's so different between them?

nova crescent
radiant arch
radiant arch
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hmm..actually might be a 'can-do' idea to replace the problematic ziplines with just a small zip tower next to them (losing 2-3 range)

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also small tower + upgrade tower = 6 ziplines in one building 🤔

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could likely connect a simple balloon terminus too, if there's little way to walk back to the station and no risk of getting stuck.. (i.e. no low ceiling or rough terrain i guess)

nova crescent
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Can confirm not a single beaver stuck or falling with small zipline and zipline pylon.
So for now i can live with those two only and avoid the upgrade ones and ballon ones.

radiant arch
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why is this red?

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my message appears red to me. i dunno why. it's not red to others?

still frigate
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Nope.

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But that usually means it didn't send right.

radiant arch
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thanks!

still frigate
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Am I missing a message from you?

image.png
radiant arch
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yeah. but it's not important

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just was pondering if it's safe to risk fallings to use some terminal balloons for well-being still

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and how that was limited to avoid low ceilings (they skip through if it's closer to next-free-tile)

radiant heart
spring heath
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huh. I thought the logging loft was built from inside the triangle buildings. guess not

image.png
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I'm assuming removing some fence will let them reach it

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✨ yes ✨

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radiant arch
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with the nursery and farmhouse add-ons not connecting to path still, but to internal pathing of the house instead?

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so, if a 'what district are you at' is force-triggered at any zipline transition it might fail, leaving a stuck beaver and the force-move to next tile (aka falling or getting stuck)

still frigate
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That would be disappointing. But I guess that -is- how it works in vanilla.

radiant arch
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would make the add-ons technically possible to 'fix'

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but balloons might be tricky and junkyard might be not possible - without coding

still frigate
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If I wanted to branch off, I had to have the beavers exit one zipline station and enter another one right beside or across from it.

One of the reasons I liked the IT tubes better. /laughs

But tubes don't fit Whitepaws style.

radiant arch
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with how strong the speedup and distance-shortening is with whitepaws it might work well nonetheless

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and you can use the towers still for 4 or up to 6 connections

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just visually.. my wall-climbing balloon lines.. 😭

still frigate
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There was no limit as to how many towers one could have in vanilla.

Balloons may still be usable if they only have two connections each and all enter/exit stations only have 1.

radiant arch
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they will work too, if they only act as pylons (3 connections and all likely)

still frigate
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towers in vanilla never have three connections.

radiant arch
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the towers alone seem to work fine as long as they only connect to pylons or towers

still frigate
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Vanilla only has 1 or 2, I believe.

radiant arch
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that's not an issue i guess

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just pondering if all it was was an oversight in the transition part from zipline to anything other than zipline or district path

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as it seems to work as long as that was not messed with

still frigate
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This all goes back to my old theory that the error hits when a beaver wants to change to a new destination and the game engine has to recalculate the zipline path since there are optional zipline paths now. Before it was enter one place, exit another, no deviations allowed.

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(Imagine me saying that last bit in an evil dictator voice.) 😉

still frigate
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vanilla, no mods:

  • 3 zipline pieces.
  • each piece can have no more than 2 connections.
  • a line is possible
  • a circle is possible
  • a Y (or greater) cannot be done.
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My next test is to rip out my entire zipline network and replace it with one that follows the vanilla rules, but uses Lapan's zip-line pieces. (All of them at least once.)

radiant arch
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you can safely use more than 2 connections - the internal logic does not care how many there are

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it's either a building can drop beavers or can not.
if there's one that can drop at either end of the line, the line can drop. (actually, it might only drop in one direction. but not tested that yet)

still frigate
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If all of that is true, then I will eventually have stuck/stranded beavers. Correct?

radiant arch
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stuck or stranded depend on where they fall off alone

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that has little to do with the actual issue

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and is much much rarer (depending on map/ setup)

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in my test case i adjusted the map to catch every beaver on an isolated ground below the line

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so i can force-stuck them whenever they fall and visually count them

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in an actual game 99% of those would just walk off i guess

still frigate
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Before I restructured my zip lines, I was getting multiple stuck (on the lines) per game day, as well as the occasional one dropped onto a building or hill.

stiff flint
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is anybody else getting bonus logs? dead Everblossoms say they give 3 logs while standing and after felling. Each lumberjack is removing 1 from the fallen log but returning 2 to the lumberjack flag for a total of 6

radiant arch
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it depends how far off-ground the line is for example

radiant arch
stiff flint
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it feels like a 1.x being rounded up to 2 situation.... i'm in full micromanagment mode trying to get that first 50 science out of the library

abstract vector
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You need all the help you can get with waterbeavers lol

still frigate
# radiant arch it depends how far off-ground the line is for example

I might have to respectfully disagree.

I am well into day 5 and have not had a single stuck beaver since switching to no more than 2 connections. I have not changed the height of my lines. I still have some on pylons, some on balloons. I pretty much only deleted multiple connections and then added new lines and stations to help make up for the loss of the Ys, Xs, and stars.

This has gone from daily unstuckifying to not a single time needed. I'll keep letting it run.

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I have a weather change in 2.1 more days. I want to go through that change, and ride however long it lasts until the next weather after that.

radiant arch
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my test setup. using only 1-1-connections dropped just as many as using more connections does.
it only ever happens for some types, but not others.

moreziplinetesting.png
nova crescent
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Well multiple connections from zipline pylons is not an issue.
I use a mod that adds extra connection to all zipline buildings. (Whitepaws also)
I have pylons with multiple connections (3). Stuck beaver issue never happens here.
The moment i use any add on buildings or the balloons the beavers fall off and get stuck in weird places.

radiant arch
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that's how i understood the code too, yep

still frigate
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I have all types in play still. The two buildings that were constantly having stuck beavers have not had any.

radiant arch
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no stuck is great

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but it's only part of the problem, as falling does only rarely stuck (it's a pure statistical issue)

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if you want to avoid falling, it's more complex than just no-stuck. or more restrictive on what's safe

still frigate
#

Actually, I would prefer to be proven wrong than to still be ambiguous. Just because it hasn't happened YET doesn't mean it wont.

image.png
nova crescent
radiant arch
radiant arch
still frigate
#

Monsoon weather just started. It will last for 6 days.

nova crescent
still frigate
#

I am either paused or on speed 3.

nova crescent
still frigate
#

One of the next major upgrades the devs really should add is random variable water pressure. Like the core of ebb&flow without the other bells and whistles it adds.

#

Don't get me wrong. There is nothing wrong with ebb&flow, IMO. I just don't see all of it as being added by the devs.

stiff flint
#

i would like to see water sources that produce a % of badwater.... pump out to much clean water and the badwater concentration rises

still frigate
#

Also, a few of my maps have no 100% pure fresh water on the surface. It all mixes below into differing ratios.

#

I have NOT tried whitepaws on any of those. /laughs

stiff flint
#

there is no underground mystery on a map that can not be solved by a generous application of high explosives

still frigate
#

True. BUT... doing so can cause ... consequences.

#

Also, one must survive long enough to amke said explosives in sufficient quantity.

radiant arch
#

mixed water sources is actually not that difficult

#

you either pump out the clean or the bad water

still frigate
radiant arch
#

just, you have less of it than you usually would

stiff flint
#

shouldn't be difficult.... but it should be interesting

radiant arch
#

also there's irrigation lodges to contamination-proof soil rather early on

stiff flint
#

if you're pumping out a large amount of badwater you're going to need to put it somewhere

radiant arch
still frigate
#

I have had water pumps stop working in this mod because contamination was too high. Like 5-ish% contamination.

radiant arch
#

and later on glowing fluid.. never enough of that..

nova crescent
radiant arch
#

i approach it the other way round: how much water there is limits the number of my beavers (and workshop redundancy)

stiff flint
#

work with the water you have not the water you want

radiant arch
#

as pumps do scale with well-being it is often more about the actual amount available, not so much the number of pumps (from 400 to 600 i only added 4 pumps, but doubled well-being)

radiant arch
#

didn't amuse me to see ebb&flow lowering that to 0.35 once ...

still frigate
radiant arch
stiff flint
#

i'm also an advocate for buildings that discharge badwater onto the ground you need to account for with drainage/collection.... so maybe i'm not sane

radiant arch
#

it's real nasty to have a redsurge on a tiny aqueduct above your town

radiant arch
still frigate
#

I still haven't rolled a redsurge. But I don't want to increase its chances of firing either.

stiff flint
#

that's a water dump's primary purpose.... I'm thinking more like a centrifuge that shoots concentrated waste water out a tube on the back

radiant arch
still frigate
radiant arch
#

testing all the while on 30x speed.. there's very rarely any drop from large farmhouse...

#

all-in-all those and terminal balloons pretty surely are safe if you connect them to pylons and have free walkable space below

#

i.e. they can't fall on pylon or farmhouse and there's usually vegetation around them anyway

still frigate
#

Okay, it -FINALLY- happened. Stranded beaver on a zip line. My hypotheses is now officially proven false. I can stop chasing that tail.

image.png
#

Beaver went from large farmhouse to floating pylon and then stuck on his way to a zipline station. Final destination unknown.

radiant arch
#

just found out the game is intelligent enough to not trigger 'path updates' if you dynamite regions not reachable ...

still frigate
#

Oh! Hello. That zip station doesn't have a road connection. 😠

image.png
#

I put in the road connection and the beaver fell then went about his day.

radiant arch
#

that's a way to trigger it

still frigate
#

That one missing bit of road partially invalidates my test. That is really annoying.

radiant arch
#

not really. the building is connected (has a distance-to-center showing)

still frigate
#

Yeah, but now I'm not gonna be happy until I have another stuck beaver.

radiant arch
#

having them blow-dig some holes is a nice way to trigger the event frequently (that's how mine got stuck the most..)

still frigate
#

I have dynamited two more large drills.

radiant arch
#

way to exit a balloon

donttrythisathome.png
still frigate
#

Do they fly forward? Mine were!

radiant arch
#

they essentially just drop i guess

#

being shortsighted and all

#

darn.. it's too fast even on 1x speed.. they literally warp down..

still frigate
#

Monsoon is over. But I'm gonna have to go get some sleep RL. I'll test more when I wake up.

#

But before I go I got another stranded. Tree nursery this time.

image.png
#

Random thought before I go... could the chances increase the longer a save is being played?

silent kindle
radiant heart
#

wanna get back on it but always end up beeing sucked in the ONI hole

sullen cape
radiant heart
#

what have i done again?

sullen cape
woeful sun
still frigate
#

The bad surge.

It finally happened. I rolled for doom and gloom. We'll see how this place looks in 11 days.

image.png
sullen cape
#

On another note

#

So regular pumps pump 3 water an hour, assuming no beaver working speed buffs
And 5 times 3 is 15

20250722142932_1.jpg
#

And the oversized water pump does 10 water an hour, 5 water every half an hour

20250722143246_1.jpg
#

I think the Math is wrong on the "5 basic pumps" for the Mechanical/Oversized water pump, it should be 15 water an hour, not 10
I'm okay with 10, they are actually pumping the river dry so I'll need to fix that somehow

still frigate
#

Yeah, my lake is below water farming level with all of my pumps. I still have 9½ days of this to go.

sullen cape
#

If you're desperate, pause some housing and cut the size of your beaver population 🙂

#

Hmm, in Vanilla Gravity Batteries can be powered by the underside, but I'd understand if this isn't something Lapan would want

20250722143530_1.jpg
still frigate
#

Pausing anything that is part of a dam is against the Whitepaws honor code. That is a lot of my housing. 😛

#

Supplies are okay-ish for now.

image.png
radiant arch
# sullen cape I think the Math is wrong on the "5 basic pumps" for the Mechanical/Oversized wa...

without workers bonus:
a mecha pump goes for 240 per day (5 x 2 x 24h).
a regular pump does 3 x 16h at most (often less), so less than 48 per day.
so that's roughly 5 times.

yet the regular pumps goes up to 150 per day on well-being 80. i believe around 200 on max-well-being (~120).
only problem: they got no storage to reach peak capacity. yet when you place a big tank in front of them you can get them quite close to that.

still frigate
#

He mentioned that at one point. I am pretty sure he intentionally removed it.

woeful sun
shell fiber
still frigate
#

Nox's Mechanical Drill (Coal) Automation Rules

The big drills will often fill up a resource then stop working. You have to manually pause them to trigger the haulers to empty them out. Then you can manually resume them. That annoyed me, so I wrote a work-around.

If you use the Automation mod then you can import these scripts into it. Feel free to tweak the numbers as you see fit. 🙂

condition:(or (ge (sig Inventory.OutputGood.Coal) 25000) (ge (sig Inventory.OutputGood.Rock) 10000) (ge (sig Inventory.OutputGood.Dirt) 15000))
action:(act Pausable.Pause)

condition:(and (lt (sig Inventory.OutputGood.Dirt) 10000) (lt (sig Inventory.OutputGood.Rock) 5000) (lt (sig Inventory.OutputGood.Coal) 20000))
action:(act Pausable.Unpause)```
#

I am running this on three large drills and quite happy with it. Unfortunately when paused the beavers remove the drill bits so you have to wait for the beavers to reload them after resuming.

#

Once coal gets below 200 the 3rd drill will resume.

radiant arch
#

i usually just set the clay pit to 'priority' - drains them like a charm 🙂

still frigate
radiant arch
#

always have one with a lido nearby

#

but yeah

#

your approach with plenty storage likely is more efficient

still frigate
#

And I want a massive amount of dirt in storage. I am building 3 of those massive storage structures. 5,000 units a structure.

radiant arch
#

5 blocks of dirt 🤔

still frigate
#

I'll probably make some extra dirt ones.

still frigate
radiant arch
#

how many do you need with ziplines? can't get my 3 used fully with 100+ sequoias, 400+ brambles and 5 greenhouses..

still frigate
#

I should make it my goal to have dirt as high as my sequoias! 😛

image.png
radiant arch
#

and here i just either priority-move them to builders or turn them into golden statues^^

radiant heart
still frigate
#

Well, I hit the halfway mark on bad surge.

image.png image.png
shell fiber
still frigate
#

They continued to fly down for the next few days until they cleared it out.

shell fiber
still frigate
shell fiber
#

but on that note, unless you're running the monsoon mod, i never felt the need to have more than one floodgate dam, since each voxel can channel about 7cms maximum, a dam wide open can let 21cms out, so the rest of the dam is just upgraded primitive dams in my builds.

still frigate
#

I am running it. Always. 😛

shell fiber
#

although the junkyard is in theroy not very different from the small tower 🤔

#

the two upgrades being whacked, i can imagine

#

the balloons... also concievable.

shell fiber
#

ah !

#

maybe you're correct 🤔
if the zipline exit is not connected to the DC by road, maybe the game is confused about which district this place belongs to 🤔

#

but wait, can ziplines connect across districts ?

radiant arch
#

no

#

they can't

#

actually, if you block the door and connect via zipline it gets assigned the district and distance

#

i'm so baffled by this still^^

shell fiber
shell fiber
still frigate
shell fiber
still frigate
shell fiber
radiant arch
shell fiber
shell fiber
shell fiber
sullen cape
#

Oops 😂

#

Sprung

shell fiber
#

since the thing is already 10-ish tall that would be plenty of power

#

if people have some time to do some testing, i'd like to get confirmation that the junkyard gets beavers stuck, while the small zipline tower does not, because that's puzzling 🤔

still frigate
#

I have not had a beaver stuck in over 10 days. I have both running. I have removed all balloons.

shell fiber
#

(just so keep this somewhere)

#

first is the junkyard, second the small tower

image.png
sullen cape
still frigate
#

That is one of janleon's maps right?

shell fiber
shell fiber
sullen cape
#

True

still frigate
#

@shell fiber I -finally- built an aqueduct. It was a little confusing at first, but I eventually figured it out. I even got it placed so that it was only taking some of the water being provided.

The only thing it seems to be missing is an option to dump the water during bad tide. It is too narrow for the floodgate dam. The closest I could find was a bridge segment that one could "blow" in times of need and then rebuild afterwards.

image.png
still frigate
#

Now that I built one, tyring to figure out how to legitimately build it is a bit interesting. Definitely looks like a top-down kind of build process to me.

Looks like this setup would probably let one do about anything with them. But duplicated on both sides.

image.png
#

@shell fiber So far, my only stranded in the past 16 days was this guy.

image.png
#

Some of that could be the fact a lot of my population is dead or incapacitated. 😛

radiant arch
# shell fiber yep, just double checked, unless there is plainly wrong data, the two buildings ...

that's what baffled me too. combined with the unstuckify-related exception, that said "on-zipline" yet "not-on-district" in some hard to understand special case.. (not sure that's the falling or post-falling mess though)
it's almost as if there's an "in-between" state when beavers transit ziplines or zipline and path that some of the scripts messes up with..
at that point i had no further idea how to debug it any more than this.. just no idea how the 'beaver' object is passing through or what script / action / state might interfere them to lose positioning.

it should technically work to add-on a pylon to an existing building (balloon, junkyard, whatever) and make them exit on that. yet why it not works with farmhouse or nursery? would it work if the exit from pylon was outside like with the tower upgrade? (something to do with the pit&ladder?) ..

#

specs that might interfere would be: (if specs are part of the problem? not likely, is it?)

yield removing building
workplace bonus
simple output inventory
workplace or attraction

might the "bottom matching prefab" somehow transfer effects from those to add-on pylons? (or not.., with how foresters work fine under zipline towers..)

(can't find any other obvious mismatches with those that work and might interact here)

#

can i actually read the code behind those specs anywhere? (like testing how they handle beaver state or if any might be prone to mess with zipline / district association)

sullen cape
still frigate
sullen cape
#

Hmm
The map isn't super-optimised for Water Beavers, but it works eventually
There isn't a spot for the Primative mine without using some of the starting dynamite

still frigate
#

I played that one as water beavers.

radiant arch
#

oh, i forgot to use any primitive mines (again^^)

still frigate
#

They get me salt. Lots of salt.

radiant arch
#

not having spots for them is tricky. so lucky for having dynamite. also for placing early badwater pumps.

radiant arch
still frigate
radiant arch
#

there's no washing them, is there?

#

like a battery of 12 of them or so..

#

using a full nuclear plant haha

still frigate
#

Yeah. I just have one beaver washer. This map isn't optomized for those. /laughs

Some creative blasting and some water redirection adn I could make it work on the unused side of the river... if I had the populaiton to go build it. 😛

radiant arch
#

good luck with it!

still frigate
#

I'll recover in time. Sooner or later these 140 kits will grow up and the unwashed contaminated beavers will eventually die of old age. I just wont make a lot of progress until then.

Food and water production are covered. That's all that matters right now.

#

By the by, wasn't it you who told me that I could make ice without trading? If so, thank you! (If not, thanks for all the other cool shit you have shown me! 😛 )

still frigate
#

I'll always suggest @crisp parcel's maps. Especially over my own, given your criteria.

However, there is a youtuber who made one map I had a lot of fun with. I haven't tried it with water beavers, but her playing it as FT and me playing it as IT; it was a blast. My memory says it would probably play nice with this mod. https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3432424941

Also, if you do give Lemon Canyon another try, make sure you are running https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3397941873 as it will give you an early starting advantage in destructible items for resources.

(Also, sorry this has taken so long to respond to. I have been letting it percolate in my brain so I didn't give bad advice.)

Steam Workshop::Dogbone Rise by KatherineOfSky KoS
Steam Workshop::MorePlants ! Reader
stiff flint
still frigate
radiant arch
#

hmm.. now i understand the ground-blocking idea with the default (bad)water sources...

#

those sky-sources lapan made can be removed with some roundabout digging..

still frigate
radiant arch
#

i like those challenges too

#

still trying to figure out the options lapans mod gives

#

like sky water sources, using active drains. using crystal base for see-through undiggable walls

still frigate
#

I played with them. Didn't go for the sky islands at first look, but I loved a lot of the other stuff.

radiant arch
#

using those crystals for dramatic lightning of water is fun too

still frigate
#

I've done active drains for a long time on personal maps.

still frigate
radiant arch
#

it's fun to play with really strong water sources and dynamics in lakes too, yet have some security drains a level higher for example

#

like 120 source strength distributed at various points, little blocks and height difference and drains to move water dramatically around

still frigate
#

One of my "nasty" tricks is to have a drain be adequate for the map as loaded, but if the player breaks the wrong blockage or dynamites the wrong place, then the water is too much for it and a LOT floods.

radiant arch
#

it's tricky to adjust, yet real fun with ebb&flow

#

or breaking something to drain away all the water would be fun too haha

still frigate
#

Ebb&Flow just puts all my careful calculations into the toilette and flushes them away! I love it!

still frigate
radiant arch
#

i'm sure you can do much more with this! i'll surely want to test it

still frigate
#

@shell fiber @radiant arch

After TWO cycles of no problems, I got a single new stuck beaver. It was in this known problem piece.

image.png
stiff flint
# still frigate I'll always suggest <@216836721155899392>'s maps. Especially over my own, given...

I found one on Steam called "The Floodplains" that checked my boxes. It had a lot of plant life on the shores so getting to the water had extra steps and placing water wheels and primitive mines is difficult because of how flat the map is.

The requirements for a water beavers colony are kind of intense. You need deep water, shallow water, berries, scrap metal, elevation changes, brambles (but not to much brambles).... and you can only terraform down since building land up is late game and expensive.

still frigate
#

Lemon Canyon (the only map I know that was 100% designed for water beavers) covers all of that. Plus, there are natural stairs that take you high up. A few log staircases here and there and you can reach the top of the map and have all the power you want to do stuff.

radiant arch
still frigate
#

Full line.

image.png
#

The other main problem child.

#

@shell fiber You don't like scaffolding. How do you build your aqueducts?

#

(I know this is after the fact... I am just trying to learn)

radiant arch
#

why not use more giant logs and log bridges?

still frigate
radiant arch
#

i believe using scaffolding as scaffolding is pretty okay. it's more about putting full towns or super heavy batteries on top (like defying gravity or something 😇 )

radiant arch
still frigate
#

You mean like this crap I love to do? /laughs

image.png
radiant arch
#

even has lights below them

still frigate
radiant arch
#

haven't got the game close, but those are very "true-to-intend" i guess

#

can place shafts and big waterwheels on those too

#

that's my usual design - path on one side (or scaffolding path above shafts) and shafts+wheels on the other side

still frigate
#

I didn't even think of using this for power. The natural one above it, sure. But not this one. Why? Because I have brain damage! /laughs

#

Gee, now that you point it out, it is almost like @shell fiber designed these for power. 😛

image.png
radiant arch
#

it's possible to get more power from that than the abyss reactor haha

still frigate
#

Oh, I have a water wheel array. I -always- have one somewhere.

image.png image.png
#

Not sure why 90% of my screen captures are at night. /laughs

#

I also do a single power shaft even between districts.

image.png
#

Now that it is day and beavers are working, this is more representative of my power usage.

image.png
stiff flint
#

the L shaped peice of scaffold is a powerhouse for scaffolding use

still frigate
#

I am tyring to figure out a weird glitch. My scavenger's junkyard thinks there is nothing to do. But clearly there is metal in range.

image.png image.png
radiant arch
#

yeah, those junkyards glitch on the "whats-in-range" detection a lot with ziplines

#

curiosly they tend to send workers nonetheless

still frigate
#

It had been working fine until I moved the end point to get in range of the last few bits.

radiant arch
#

the updating of those might not sync well

#

also noticed that i randomly get and unget that message while there's no scrap metal anywhere for many cycles now

#

not sure this has to do with the zipline access being inside the workplace or anything

stiff flint
radiant arch
#

that's a very helpful one indeed

still frigate
#

I did a little water shaping and got more than a 50% increase in power output from the same wheels.

image.png image.png
radiant arch
#

of course

#

it's how much flow you got on that middle tile or something

#

also very thoughtful of you to place the doors that side! upper floor even!

still frigate
#

They are just barely above the danger line.

image.png
radiant arch
#

btw: you know about the dam upgrades? to make them 1.65m high? only.. in general, you know^^

still frigate
#

I have never used them but I know of them.

radiant arch
#

btw: do you know if it's possible to emulate redsurge or monsoon in map editor too?

still frigate
#

I know freeflow works, but I haven't tried weather. I don't think it does since the editor only has the 3 stages of weather.

#

You can estimate it by increasing your water values, but if you are like me, that could be chaging dozens and dozens and quickly become a nightmare.

#

I save and then test in live mode.

radiant arch
#

yeah.. same.. too bad

still frigate
#

even then, it is a range of values you get.

#

I do believe it is time to -try- to sleep again. Take care all.

radiant arch
#

have a good one

radiant arch
#

no scaffolding used. just a regular 3M battery 😇

doyoubelieveingravity.png
stiff flint
#

thank you.... that's going to solve a problem i'm having right now 🙂

#

I wasn't seeing what i thought.... in my eagerness to solve my power problem I saw a gravity battery hanging over the abyss and thought/hoped it was possible

#

in my own defense mine shafts and gravity batteries work well together in the real world 🙂

radiant arch
#

or in this case some slightly-longer-than-usual stairs^^

stiff flint
#

the map i'm using is wide and flat... perfect for farming, but i've got no good elevations to hang a battery from and i'm constantly fighting brambles covering everything green when i turn my back

radiant arch
#

in those cases i made towers of storage when ladders become available and hang the batteries from top of there. 10 or 12 high is already plenty. plus can replace them with heavier versions later.

#

you know the bramble trick with marking spots for planting? they can't get past that barrier (though not sure it's intended to use it this way)

stiff flint
#

planks have been the choke point that keeps me from building tall enough to get good battery spots.... I'm only now getting advanced farms running but i've got the food to support a population over 200.... factories are my next big tech unlock

radiant arch
#

having enough trees and planks always is a big struggle for me too

#

really often almost starved from not having enough logs for the kitchens in later mid game too..

#

might actually always have at least as many trees as farmland 🤔 (though it gets better with sequoias and 2nd big sawmill)

stiff flint
#

i would open another saw mill.... but i'm still working with a single primitive ironworks so sawblades are not plentiful

#

working to build zip lines early changed my path down the tech tree and unexpectedly made population a lot easier to grow (large flat spaces are also a huge boost)

radiant arch
#

curiosity: small towers only get assigned a district if they have path in front of door 🙃

i did not test this case before. so no idea if this would affect falling off 🤔

p.s. zipline towers do get assigned from ziplines alone, but underlying building only when path is placed (tower entrance is one tile before base building).
farmhouse + pylons get assigned on zipline alone too

stiff flint
radiant arch
#

that's looking fun and cozy

#

so easy to see what's going on too!

stiff flint
#

i'm going to let it run while i head off to work.... this is the earliest i've ever had a stable "perpetual motion" state for WBO

shell fiber
shell fiber
shell fiber
shell fiber
shell fiber
radiant arch
#

@still frigate full strength monsoon (350%) will overflow a single aqueduct from abyss reactor. it needs at least one more tile to outflow the amount (equaling a strength 7 source).
not sure ebb&flow can increase it even more 🤔
would be safe to have 2 aqueducts carry output if you want to avoid spilling from monsoon / redsurge (for at least 3m width total).

#

or maybe lapan fixes it again to not be affected by those changes (not sure this applied to strength too or just contamination). also not sure which is more fun tbh.

still frigate
#

Ebb&Flow actually raises the maximum water from 8 up to 12 per source.

radiant arch
#

that would make an abyss reactor output up to 10.5 (3.5x for monsoon and 1.5x for ebb&flow, 2 is base output). that's 4m width of outflow to be safe..

still frigate
shell fiber
#

Hmm... Good thing there is T intersections then 😅

#

But ideally I want to keep the reactor output stable

#

GN!

spring heath
still frigate
#

The scavenger flag got it.

spring heath
#

glad you solved it, weird it happened

still frigate
#

Only guess I have was that they were all 1-height scrap. A lot of maps don't use that and maybe it triggers differently? Grasping at straws, tbh.

iron wind
#

Just when I thought my beavers were immune to falling off, this fella decided to sit on the floor of the big zipline tower and forget how to use ladders.

The Hollows might not be an ideal place for first Whitepaw playthrough but hey, at least there is a lot of places for gravity batteries.

1062090_27.jpg
still frigate
#

I had a lot of fun with Whitepaws on that map.

stiff flint
#

the station shouldn't be showing a connected path before it's built. is that part of the stranding problems?

20AFC01.JPG
#

and that unbuilt station is on the far side of the map from my only district center, the path out of it wouldn't be green under any normal situation

radiant arch
shell fiber
shell fiber
shell fiber
#

okay, so right now i'm not 100% convinced that the zipline tower is bug free.
but i'm believing in the small tower.

radiant arch
shell fiber
#

but yet the junkyard issue is still unclear...

#

ah

#

good

#

in a way

#

but they do fall off in lines that contains junkyards and no other problematic buildings ?

radiant arch
#

i'll look it up again, but they did fall junkyard-junkyard and i believe junkyard-pylon too.

#

hmm.. in the save they only fell (frequently) junkyard-balloon and junkyard-junkyard.. not junkyard-pylon.

#

will test if the falling relates to the balloon being in the cluster..

shell fiber
#

beavers never fall small tower-small tower ?

radiant arch
#

never seen them to

#

but they'd not get stuck on that either

shell fiber
#

hmm... so maybe it did have something to do with the enterable part

#

otherwise the junkyard wouldn't ever have problems

#

wait no, that doens't compute with the large farmhouse issues

#

OR

#

we have multiple problems on our handspaws

radiant arch
#

another weird idea: it couldn't have to do with the speed / distance-shortening as it not affects them all equally, could it?

iron wind
# shell fiber i think it's a fun map too

Oh, the map is fun. I just do not have enough Whitepaw experience to make the best of it. Or you could call it not enough confidence to build a megadam out of houses 😄
Oh, and I am kinda struggling with berries for research, there are not a lot of natural patches, the florists do have my back but I think I need to get to baloons soon.

radiant arch
#

testing some i now can't see them fall between junkyards and 'safe buildings' or other junkyard..
neither had any drop towards large farmhouse (which seems rare, from 'safe buildings')

ziplinesagain.png
#

it's really weird to test for rare events tbh..

shell fiber
#

but that implies renaming beavers manually, which seems like a chore

radiant arch
#

it's doubly hard, as they would need to frequent that line while triggering the event.. hmm.. may try it..

shell fiber
shell fiber
#

like deluxe stew-junkyard-pylon-smalltower-DC-metal ruins

#

just have everyone go back and forth all the time

#

except the junkyard workers are all renamed 'a' or whatever

#

(sorry to ask you to do my debugging) 😭

radiant arch
#

no problem

#

i want this solved just as much and have the fun back to the game..

#

they don't appear to fall. tested on two lines with 16 beavers working in two scavengers. all still work there. none dropped within 3 days of randomly triggering the event. a distinct line was dropping 30 beavers from balloons in the meantime

#

setup was

deluxeStew - farmhouse - zipTower - zipTower (DC) - smallTower - smallTower - water -> none dropped
zipTower (DC) - pylon - junkyard (giant storage) - junkyard - junkyard - scrap metal -> none dropped

with an offline from DC towards balloons and tree nursery and catapult (here many dropped)

#

this is with more than 120 dropped by now and still all working in both junkyards after a few days. did 1000+ trips to gather scrap metal too

ziplines.png
#

junkyards at middle-bottom are active, the ones next to stew and court

#

maybe there's some "very-rare" type of thing, like what happens to the zip-tower (upgrades) that can rarely affect junkyards, farmhouse upgrade etc too? (thus they counted)
but the main problem is balloons?

shell fiber
#

hmm...

#

need to think

#

first i want to make as many buildings as fail proof as possible

shell fiber
#

wait, can someone code-savvy take a look at what does "block object access spec" ?

#

just wondering if it is additionnal access points for the building

#

hmm... no that's probably not that important

#

movement is taken care off by the nav mesh, this is probably something else to connect districs etc

radiant arch
#

@still frigate adjusted my map to allow your full preferences: monsoon, badtides (very tricky..) and 4k+ water wheels 🙂
very different approach. tall, caves, strong currents. not really mean.
incremental resources / space kinda map, despite plenty total room , scrap metal and endless water.
if you wanna try at some point: https://mod.io/g/timberborn/m/old-dwarven-mines-tall-map

5k_wheel.png
#

did basically a full playthrough now too, with whitepaws. wanna try one with monsoon and badtides next, slow and deadly 🤞
and than try your map finally.

ember pine
#

Does anyone know if I'm doing something wrong? Even though the clay pit has water, it won't place.

wheat apex
#

Do you have plans to update the trade system to include Emberpelts and Leafcoats?

still frigate
ember pine
#

It is just confusing, I try to place it anywhere on the map and it doesn't work.

#

That has water

still frigate
#

I am grasping at straws here, but do your mods happen to include ebb&flow?

#

If so, check your settings. I had very low pollution levels caused by this setting being on actually disable clay pits and river baths in one game.

image.png
polar wind
shell fiber
#

try to order your beavers to destroy plants in this area (including down the river) to see if there isn't some invisible thing shenanigans going on. same with destroying buildings 🤔

shell fiber
#

i have an idea about the zipline, let me check

shell fiber
#

goddamit, i'm finding a lot of errors in my ziplines towers...

#

those things are quite confusing it turns out...

shell fiber
#

well right now i'm reduced to going back to the folktails vanialla buildings, then i'll add the functionnalities i want one by one and see when everything goes bonkers

hearty swan
#

C'est quoi la 3ème faction. C'est quoi son mod ?

sullen cape
stiff flint
#

deleting a complete zipline tower from the top of an advanced farmhouse doesn't have a debris pile... or it puts the pile somewhere unfindable

shell fiber
shell fiber
shell fiber
#

for now i have the scavenger building and the small tower fully functionnal, no issue, cannot get any beaver to fall off with my usual method (placing/destroying houses)

#

tbh the system could be just fine like this, but i really want the ballons, at least as relays

radiant arch
#

balloons been the coolest addition to all this imho

#

endpoints might be fine without the platform too though. like smaller balloon and just the rope ladder. not need the full max range either. maybe. really useful to have them. yet they felt a little too similar to the relays.

#

to shamelessly push some preferences 🙂

shell fiber
#

oooh, you gotta be kidding me, THAT was the issue ? 😑

#

apparently the cursed thing wants only 0.5 on X and Z coordinates

#

just adjusted to 0.6 and kaboom

#

beavers start falling off

#

well, in the grand scheme of things, i'm glad the issue is something trivial like this

#

okay, blender time then, have to put this tower exactly back on (0.5 ; 0.5)

#

thinking back on this, this matches with the tree nursery being the most problematic building

heavy lodge
midnight escarp
#

What was problematic about the Tree nursery?

radiant arch
woeful sun
#

I'm guessing something about location being rounded, and then pathing is lost, or something,

shell fiber
#

i don't know how the thing work internally, but while the nav mesh is working using voxel coordinates, i kind of expect it to actually translate into the mid-point in game, so the system is probably build assuming it can find a path to plug into at 0.5 ; 0.5 and was failing and dropping beavers off since my data was giving it 0.6 ; 0.6.

i mean... that's the most sense i can make of it

midnight escarp
#

That definitely sounds frustrating. I wish I knew more of how this worked too, I just haven't worked with it personally yet

shell fiber
#

the most annoying part is to have no indication whatsoever about the problem, once you know what's wrong it's solved quickly

#

right now i have working properly :

  • small tower
  • large tower (upgrade)
  • pylon
  • junkyard

now loading the two balloons

radiant arch
#

did try and use @brave ivy wonderful script pack (and prefab modder for costs)
to adapt stylish bot-trains and frog statues for my whitepaws game (as late-game eye-candy).

sadly i could not figure out how (or if) it was possible to:

  • get the roof look like Whitepaws
  • get the walls look like Whitepaws (the WindowsAtlas darkens them)
  • get the train driver to look like a Bot.. (they do cost the part!)
  • manipulate the frog statue mesh from json files too, to change logs and planks
  • to change the big x-intersection tracks BaseWood at all, even using emberpelts example

would anyone know hints at what to look at for those problems?

(I know i could clone the prefabs and all, but surely never will I be able to use unity and co like that with my poor vision)

trains_and_frogs.whitepaws.png
#

hope that's okay to ask here and do?

brave ivy
#

Yeah, not sure why some of the textures don't update correctly.

shell fiber
#

i'd like to help with getting ChooChoo on the whitepaws, but that seems like a lot of work i don't think i can do.

radiant arch
#

oh, i figured you'd not like adding to your mod

#

Just getting ChooChoo to run was surprisingly simple.
Can share my jsons. or upload it to mod.io, if that's fine with you?

#

It's fully functional and all. Beaver-only too. And super expensive (like bot assembly + bots). Just visuals that are off for the Train Yard, a quirk changing Wagons and the weird big X-Intersection.

shell fiber
#

yeah sure

#

if you have authorization from tobbert/bobingabout ofc

#

as for me, the balloons are still problematic, although i don't understand why, i even rebuild one from a basic foltail hub and yet...

radiant arch
#

@stone halo @brave ivy was it okay for me to upload a choochoo whitepaws mod to mod.io ? (essentially a copy of emberpelts mod plus changed materials and costs)

brave ivy
spring heath
#

is it intended that demolishing a rappelling crane doesn't give back the rope? I've loaded into an older (pre-rope) save bc I was missing it and now need to backfill my rope. I've been somewhat shamelessly ||dev-moding|| in rope but noticed that deleting cranes (old and new) doesn't return rope, altough maybe that's just because the save is older?

#

apologies for how may times I used the word 'rope' above 😅

radiant arch
#

buildings can only give back, what they been built with - even if costs change in the meantime.

#

did confuse me a lot too till i found out

#

new ones should return them though. that's weird if they don't do anymore

spring heath
#

ah ok thanks, maybe none of them got built that I thought, as it was flying out everywhere when it went into storage

radiant arch
#

but those are odd somehow. sometimes i can't see them when build on platforms.

spring heath
#

I had started building an assembly line and some balloon stuff that soaked up rope straight away

radiant arch
#

yeah, that's a real hurdle!

stiff flint
#

i've noticed more than a few "not acting like i would expect" situations with debris drops.... I might have become paranoid on the topic

radiant arch
#

building crane gives back the rope with current version for me

#

not gives back any for old save games too (before rope was introduced)

spring heath
#

can confirm that newly built crane (one anyway) is returning my rope

spring heath
#

I thought that since the landing pads weren't flooded, this would be fine...

shell fiber
#

the zipline relay balloon is incomprehensible

#

just slightly different values for minor things, and for some reason, beavers start falling off

#

trying to pinpoint which property is having a tantrum

shell fiber
#

baby steps... baby steps, i'm closing in...

#

pretty sure it's yet another completely bonkers problem, like the entrance for some reason cannot be inside the building's volume, while it is perfectly fine for everything else

shell fiber
#

GN !

stiff flint
#

are there any known problems with building the final wonder not detecting the correct water level?

stiff flint
#

i was at the bottom of the map and miscounted depth.... turns out the error was inside me all along

shell fiber
#

well now i'm in the "why does that work" phase 😑

shell fiber
#

well, seems to be working

#

in the end i still have no idea what was wrong.

shell fiber
sullen cape
#

Fixed ziplines? Jack the Gnawer is disappointed 😉

20250727202533_1.jpg
sullen cape
#

(No beaver soup!) DamFT rip

shell fiber
shell fiber
#

i've at long last decided to put a little work in some sort of beaver head monument (to go between two hands of soup)

#

i don't know if it is going to be cursed or nice

radiant arch
#

like beavers have to enter that mouth to get to their soup?

stiff flint
#

dentist office?.... high speed tooth repair?

shell fiber
#

no, that's... okay to be honest i have no idea what this monstrosity should be 🤣

#

but i was kind of thinking some downward stairs

#

like beavers enter through the mouth, clearly, but then... go down ?

#

i'm not really sure

#

could be some sort of storage

#

since it's meant to go between hands of soup

radiant arch
#

could place burgers inside or some other dearly wanted stuff. would certainly like that beaver head to be there

#

could also trapdoor random beavers to the witches lair or some other new purpose

shell fiber
#

but it can also just be a monument

radiant arch
#

would love to have it lit at nights!

#

missing some ominous vibes now!

heavy lodge
lapis yacht
#

Hi I have problem with White Paws mod, i tried everything and its always bugging, tried U7 nad U6, could anyone help me?

shell fiber
shell fiber
lapis yacht
#

i tried both actually

shell fiber
#

okay, can you show a screenshot of your mod folder ? you probably have something missing / that shouldn't be there

lapis yacht
#

I used bepinex if tahts correct?

radiant arch
#

bepinex will most likely not work - it's cited as the most common cause of crashing with timberborn

lapis yacht
#

ok, so should i just put it on /user/../timberborn/mods?

radiant arch
#

next common problems are:

  • pantry mod present
  • wrong version of whitepaws (U6 versus U7 version)
  • unsatisfied dependencies (show yellow notice in timberborn mod list)
radiant arch
lapis yacht
#

Ok i will reinstall timberborn

#

do i need mod manager then?

#

i noticed that it is causing errors

radiant arch
#

mod manager: not really. you can download them either through steam for steam installs or directly from mod.io and put into /mods folder

lapis yacht
#

i will try through steam workshop

radiant arch
#

not all there. recommended to move Harmony to first

lapis yacht
lapis yacht
radiant arch
#

Bobingabout Script Pack

lapis yacht
#

still not working 😦

#

first is harmony

#

on top

radiant arch
#

could you send the PlayerLog from the error report? (should be next to /mod directory)

lapis yacht
radiant arch
#

there's a file permission error with one of the mods here

lapis yacht
#

how to resolve it?

radiant arch
#

not sure for windows.. integrity check with steam might work.
or you manually look at file permissions for D:\SteamLibrary\steamapps\workshop\content\1062090\3281653061\version-0.7\Localizations\

shell fiber
lapis yacht
#

what im suppose to do here?

#

is it language problem?

shell fiber
#

probably one of the mods have a corrupted german text file

#

that's a bit difficult to check

lapis yacht
#

😦

shell fiber
#

let me see if i can reproduce the crash and see if i can isolate the issue

lapis yacht
#

i know german if that helps 😄

radiant arch
#

trying to swap to english might work here. maybe

lapis yacht
#

will try

shell fiber
#

it's probably a format issue in the language file, actually understanding german is facultative 😅

shell fiber
#

when starting a new game ?

#

or just after selecting the mods ?

lapis yacht
#

after mods list

lapis yacht
radiant arch
#

too bad

shell fiber
#

are you playing on a computer you don't own, like company-issued laptop or something ?

lapis yacht
#

no, its mine

shell fiber
#

hmm... so no reason to expect access restriction then

lapis yacht
#

maybe antivirus?

shell fiber
#

nah, they should know steam by now

lapis yacht
#

Should i try doing it through mod.io?

#

could someone send me a pack of mods folder?

#

Zip

radiant arch
#

you could try and only swap that one folder too

lapis yacht
#

with other games usually worked

radiant arch
#

steam accepts you placing them into mods folder

#

name of the problematic mode should be in D:\SteamLibrary\steamapps\workshop\content\1062090\3281653061\manifest.json or in the version-0.7/manifest.json

lapis yacht
#

like this folder of steam workshop into user/../timberborn/mods?

image.png
shell fiber
radiant arch
#

that should technically work too. what i meant: remove the problematic mod from steam and put mod.io copy in the mod folder of the steam timberborn installation

shell fiber
lapis yacht
shell fiber
#

either is fine, but on the mod selection screen, just pick the ones with the tiny folder icon (local) and not the cloud icons ones

#

to be honest that's quite a weird issue you have

#

you're not modifying one of the german text entry files by any chance ? 😅

#

and like keeping it open while you try to run the game

lapis yacht
#

😄

lapis yacht
lapis yacht
radiant arch
#

does it work if you remove the .csv-files from the folder?

#

(just a random guess. no more ideas for this sadly)

lapis yacht
#

is there anything new?

#

for me its kinda black magic BrokenTeeth

radiant arch
#

UnauthorizedAccessException: Access to the path "C:\Users\karol\OneDrive\Dokumenty\Timberborn\Mods\3281653061\version-0.7\Localizations\deDE.csv" is denied.

#

same issue still

#

could you try the mod.io version instead of the steam version for this?

lapis yacht
radiant arch
#

it still shows the same error, saying the file is still there

lapis yacht
radiant arch
#

that's a different directory under /Mods/

shell fiber
#

yeah, it's looking at a different mod

radiant arch
#

error report says /3286476486

lapis yacht
radiant arch
#

wait.. does this apply to even more mods now?

shell fiber
#

probably every single mod will tell you a similar issue

radiant arch
#

like steam can't read csv files at all?

shell fiber
#

which means it's not really the mod being at fault

#

it should be able too

lapis yacht
#

i will delete them all the

#

its only languages yea?

shell fiber
#

yeah

#

if it can't find a specific language it defaults to english

#

but maybe that's not the issue

heavy lodge
#

The best advice is to get rid-off the OneDrive. It's a mess.

lapis yacht
#

thought that too

shell fiber
#

good point 🤔

radiant arch
#

might be a general user access issue and just randomly trying to load localisation first..

shell fiber
#

what i would suggest is to select the entire "1062090" folder in steamapps/workshop/content

#

right click, properties

#

then untick the read only or whatever, make it freely accessible editable etc

heavy lodge
#

Only if OneDrive is not messing with credits , in that case will need to take autorship ....

lapis yacht
lapis yacht
#

i deleted all csv files and still the same issue

shell fiber
#

hmm... i think this goes beyond what i can help with, and clearly is not specfic to one particular mod, maybe best to ask on #🤖mod-creators or #🚀mod-users

#

also i'm going to bed soon, work early tommorrow

lapis yacht
#

:D:D

#

dowloaded from steam workshop and deleted all csv files form localizations folders

#

question if everything will works with the names, as you can see

radiant arch
#

you might be able to leave the localisation files now too. if file permissions work

#

otherwise it will all be just those IDs, yes

lapis yacht
#

as when i am form Poland xD

radiant arch
#

i doubt it was that actually. likely the applying proper permissions to the files was the fix

lapis yacht
#

so should i check integrity all download it again?

radiant arch
#

that should work and re-add those i believe

lapis yacht
radiant arch
#

weird

#

could be still, that onedrive messed with access control 🤔

#

if it's that eager to block localisation files and you can't just exclude the path from one-drive control you might have to do without texts 🙂

lapis yacht
#

checked integrity and now its bugging again

#

UnauthorizedAccessException: Access to the path "D:\SteamLibrary\steamapps\workshop\content\1062090\3281653061\version-0.7\Localizations\deDE.csv" is denied.

#

same

#

will dleete only german now i guess

#

XD

#

UnauthorizedAccessException: Access to the path "D:\SteamLibrary\steamapps\workshop\content\1062090\3281653061\version-0.7\Localizations\enUS.csv" is denied.

#

maybe its because i have office 360?

#

i have some issues with excel because of that

radiant arch
#

yeah, looks like your one-drive or something is blocking all the csv files (likely for versioning)

#

if you can set paths to ignore for that - that should fix the issue hopefully

lapis yacht
#

how?

radiant arch
#

i don't know windows nor one-drive. sorry

lapis yacht
#

UnauthorizedAccessException: Access to the path "D:\SteamLibrary\steamapps\workshop\content\1062090\3281653061\version-0.7\Localizations\enUS.csv" is denied.

but its not on onedrive anymore

radiant arch
#

sorry, can't help you any further either

lapis yacht
lapis yacht
#

we havent tried the oldest method...

#

turn off and on the computer

#

...

#

and yea, my antivirus blocked everything

#

2h, but now its working, tahnk you all for help BeaverDabbing BeaverHello

shell fiber
#

so no one having issues with beavers falling off ziplines for the time being ?

sullen cape
#

||No, but I designed it so I wouldn't in the first place||
-# 👉 👈 Is the large farmhouse connection coming back? That was amazing, but I know it caused some bugs

radiant arch
shell fiber
sullen cape
#

No rush, I'll work something out 🙂
Thanks for the hard work again 😊

radiant arch
#

silly question: should i add the frog statue patch too? any objection to making that available on mod.io? (still gotta need to ask KnatteAnka)

shell fiber
#

On that note, what did you make the rails cost ? A long time ago I was trying to integrate ChooChoo and was thinking about making the rails cost, well, rails. To be made in the factory 😅
Don't know how practical or not that would have been though

radiant arch
#

seriously considered that too, but rejected the idea for how complex that would make things for the player. also it's set up to come late in game anyway with how expensive trains are.
1 track tile = 1 metal block, 2 treated planks, 2 fasteners
(treated planks to mark them as "foreign" / "weird")

#

original is 4 planks 2 scrap metal
really considered 4 planks, 4 fasteners, 2 metal blocks from there
but that's like 14 scrap metal, 10 coal, 4 plank, 4 resin and felt slightly too expensive. especially with how demanded for metal blocks are late game (+slow to make).
on the other side: factory makes 15-30 per day depending on well-being at that stage. so that's rather fast track making still isn't it?

#

quite unsure about costs in this still. will have to play more and wait for feedback.

#

also made the train yard cost like a bot assembler and trains costs as if they merged with bots

#

kinda could not imagine water beavers to just go and take the easy approach

#

or have it run 'on no fuel'

#

hmm.. maybe i should revert that to 4 planks, 2 fasteners, 2 metal blocks i guess.
or really add rails, as in 1 rail per tile..
but would price them at around 2 metal blocks anyway, so not really that useful to the player, is it?

#

another concern was in the train yard requiring the master in robotics scroll.
players need to consider to go for bots or trains first. (or swap assembly / train yard to share one scroll)
it's both expensive to connect far off districts or make another scroll for more train yards.

#

considering there's only few trains them using up processors and so should be fine

radiant arch
#

one master in robotics should need around:

1166 paper
 800 tools
 666 pencil
 600 planks
 533 glowing fluid
 333 cereal bars
 333 water
 300 gears
 200 metal blocks
 200 brain salts
  83 rope

should take around 20-60 days to make depending on how many abysses (explorations + relics, 200 each) you got free and how many giant flies are around.
plenty stockpiling, free workers and excellent well-being are really nice to have here!

#

not sure anymore if this is cheaper than the abyss reactor tbh

#

should feel real rewarding to unlock both, trains and bots 🙂

spring heath
#

uhm... I know beavers love wood and all, but bathing in it seems a bit excessive 😂 (the building does have water, though not very much; do the beaver models align to the water surface? Or is the whole thing just a bit out of whack?)

image.png
sullen cape
shell fiber
shell fiber
radiant arch
#

how about i add them as 1 rails = 6 scrap metal, 6 coal, 2 fastener
factory can make them twice as fast, so around 30-60 rails a day if needed.
-> thus it's faster to make. costs is low at this point in game anyway, due to foundry

radiant arch
#

not really can compete with ziplines imho. rather with bots. that's why i considered making them mechanized and late to come in.
building tracks only really makes sense after having the foundry anyway, which requires ENS master scroll already.
if the masterPhD-of-robotics is too high a hurdle or requiring a processor for a train ..
how about making them just nuclear-powered mecha-trains, without the bot driver/ processor? and a 'bachelor of transportation' from ENS to make them available earlier?

#

currently one train costs: (including 4 wagons)

18 logs
12 planks
 6 gear
 6 robot parts
 6 metal fastener
 4 tools
12 metal blocks
 2 nuclear fuel
 1 processor
 2 glass pane
 2 glowing fluid
30 water
shell fiber
#

it's an option, but you can also imagine those as early steam age trains, which where not even remotely as heavy as the trains we have today. iirc the earliest form of "trains" were actually wooden bus-like things on light rail and pulled by horses.

of course it's up to you since you're making it, but the way i would have seen if i were to integrate it by default would be more of a mid-game thing, i don't want people to be forced to tech up to the ENS like their life depends on it.

I would make it more like one rail (building) = 4 planks + 2 rails (item). let's suspend our disbelief on the lack of fasteners, that would inflate the cost too much, and optionnally some waste rock, to mark it as clearly not intended for pre-mech drill tech level.

Then... i would want the factory to make 2 rails out of 1-2 scrap metal (+coal), but that looks stupid since it makes rails as coslty as metal fixtures... so i would pretend the rails are like wooden beams with a metal cover (would need to edit the 3D model to reflect this) and add a couple logs to the rail reciepe 🤔

as for the train themselves... i wouldn't make them cost nuclear fuel, processors, glass nor glowing fluid, that pushes it too far tech-wise. And since the train doesn't actually consume anything in game, i think solar pannels might be best (can be traded in early on, which is something i want to happen more) but that also implies editing the model... robot parts i see the point but i would also avoid because they are so far off, the assembly line which is like 800 science iirc, and making robot parts also consume gears. (do wagons cost anything btw ?)

what i think we can't do anyway, is make the rails cost metal block AND be made in the factory (since it also produces metal block, that causes a symmetrical inventory bug), or costing scrapmetal AND be made in the high-temp foundry (same reason)

as for the requirements in blueprints etc...hmm... we could go for a training course diploma in the library 🤔

radiant arch
#

wagons are included in trains. you build them as a set.

#

i like the library idea!

#

and making them really low-tech.. hmm.. it's nice too

shell fiber
#

quick question though, is your mod just addin choo-choo assets to the whitepaws and runnign a texture changer script, or did you extract the files, specifications, assets and everything to remake them at your own sauce ?

radiant arch
#

it's just patch json files really

shell fiber
shell fiber
#

well that limits what we can do by a lot then

#

at least i'm not super familiar with those tools

radiant arch
shell fiber
#

regarding the rail building, we can probably just skip over the rail item and go for 2 scrapmetal and 4 planks if we don't want to go through the trouble of rewriting everythign

shell fiber
#

but let's be realistic here for a sec, i don't think i have the time to integrate choo-choo fully into this faction, and even if i could, i would prefer not relying on other mods too much, every timberborn update breaks everything and there's no telling when dependencies will be fixed each time.

#

relying on timbercommons is already quite a concession because i really like irrigation towers. i love the idea of having trains too, but that is functionnally not as vital

#

on a separate note, i was thinking about a rebalance of the water storage in that faction watching at JC's playthrough. not that i want to make his life miserable, but i'm just questionning wether the ability to build humongous water storage was not undermining the principle of the game, which is to make a dam at some point

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if you can easily store a bazillion water in tanks, what's the point of ever building a dam ?

radiant arch
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feeling guilty rn

shell fiber
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you don't have to, it just makes sense to do that

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this is a design error if anything

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but let's say, for the sake of argument, that i remove giant buried tanks

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of course spamming medium tanks is always a possibility, but that quickly becomes quite a drag

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removing medium tanks too would be... quite harsh i belive.

radiant arch
radiant arch
shell fiber
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realistically you would want people to store easily at least 300 tar, oil, tea or whatnot

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so let's not remove them

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but i might remove the giant buried tanks

radiant arch
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tbh: giant tanks really suck for many reasons
they bind endless amounts of haulers (going 4 or 6 units of water at a time)
they make dams meaningless - just stock up and ignore 10+ days of drought

shell fiber
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oh, right, i also wanted to push back tech-wise the oversized water pumps

radiant arch
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what would that really do.... it would make bigger districts much less viable..

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it would require more 'hubs' to distribute foods and drinks..

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it would make hand-of-soup storage capacity seem like a joke actually imho

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isn't that the same?

shell fiber
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ah, true, might need to reduce the cost / capacity of those too

radiant arch
shell fiber
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yeah, one thing i wanted to do was allow them to use deeper water

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you think they should produce more ?

radiant arch
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maybe increase output some too

shell fiber
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ah yes, because deep water pumps produce 4/ hour, but with workspeed bonus they actually make more

radiant arch
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i don't know if many players up the well-being
but my upgraded pumps go by 180+ water per day from mid-game

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workspeed bonus is easy to get to 2.5x to 3x by early mid-game. some more by end-game

shell fiber
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i see... well the main point of this pump is to not require any workers but it needs to remain competitive at some degree...

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hmm... wondering if i should make terraforming a little bit easier to help people make their dams

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like 700 dirt instead of 1000

radiant arch
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like filling holes and corners?

shell fiber
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i don't know tbh

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i'm thinking maybe some stackable dam that only lets a tiny amount of water through

radiant arch
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would be nice to have something leaky haha

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rn one dirt block needs the equivalent of 858 scrap metal or 109 metal blocks when made from drill output.

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it's not too hard to spam 5-20 decently after unlocking foundry and stocking up on metal blocks for the late game things tbh.

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might be more like people are scared by the number.
or not rely on haulers (it's so much faster to build a storage next to building site and have them haul in the goods)

shell fiber
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basically the problem i'm having playing hollows, is that clearly the initial water source we have is meant to be sort of walled-up to become a reservoir, but i find it really difficult to do, or at least not without extreame population bloat, which would be very unsustainable early on 🤔
which is...perfectly intended in a way...

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as a thought experiment : let's say i make a 2x3 rocks-in-a-cage type of thing, block water up to 0.9 height, and stackable.

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you cant just make a whole dam out of it, because it would be leaking everywhere

radiant arch
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with the way the water emulation works: would that block the flow even?

shell fiber
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but if you use it to block the riverbed, you can slowly build up your dam on it

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ah, uuh, good question, i should check that

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well that's not too hard to test

radiant arch
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having something with a defined (very low) outflow would be really nice indeed

shell fiber
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have to think of the consequences, but i think that could be usefull

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well crap

image.png
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oh, wait a secon

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one voxel can channel 6-7cms iirc

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so 0.1 heigh x3 can channel about 2cms

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let's boost the water source to 6 or so

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nopinope, no bueno

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they still behave as on/off fixed gates

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that just bring us back to the sluice issue doesn't it ? 😓

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and the drain houses were problematic because they actually pumped water trhough...

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hmm...

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but despite this, for the sake of argument, what if i still made a stackable semi-permeable building ?

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the flow limit would be the waterfall limit, i.e. 2.2

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which in the particular case i'm working with, is still too much, but not ecessarily that big of an issue

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oh wait no, that would be stupid, you'd have a dam leaking water out even in drought, and far more that woudl be tolerable

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so scrap that

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what we'd need is a stackable floodgate... or a sluice...

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or... just leave things be complicated ¯_(ツ)_/¯

stiff flint
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trying to create a reservoir early is a logic problem. you can't start until after you've moved out of the cart and built the primitive forge, so you're juggling population, food, water, and trying to rush for metal fasteners so you can have any control over creating a lake/pond

the irony that a primitive dam requires you to sprint to the first stage of the tech tree is real.... logs and clay should get the job done

shell fiber
stiff flint
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what i want doesn't matter when there are thirsty/dirty beavers.... the first cycle is a frenzy of needs that actually slows down if you can survive without over populating.... that's a lot to ask for a new player

radiant arch
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you can build those double water storage thingies too. very cost-efficient and great to bring a small population over a couple of droughts.
also there's leaky baths and lido (especially with cart-dynamite) to handle much till any need of big dams imho

though if switching from vanilla the much higher demand for water and farmers can be tricky at first i guess. barely noticing it now, but actually i need to count my population and pumps and farms to match for a couple of cycles (till increased well-being and advanced foods/ drinks lessen need a lot)

iron wind
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Maybe the giant tank is too giant, but having to rely only on mediums would be harsh.

Concerning the dam, it might be useful to think of its purpose. Is it early irrigation dam? Is it midgame deep irrigation for lotus? Is it dedicated large freshwater reservoir capable of replacing giant tank? If so, it has to be really large (water is only 5 units per Voxel afaik) and ideally protected from badwater (effectively locked behind floodgates) or it will take three days to clean up. As a newbie to the pack, I do have trouble devising such large reservoirs.

red bridge
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Am I looking in the wrong place, or is wbo not in steam community workshop?

radiant arch
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it's "whitepaws faction" on steam

shell fiber
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i also think it is difficult so no worries on that side

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i wont make too reckless changes of course, only if i think it is doable

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there is of course nothing preventing players to build 20-30medium storage to store 10k water

radiant arch
still frigate
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Wow, a lot has happened while I have been out of it.

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Yep... from what I read, I expected my old save to break. /laughs

radiant arch
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applied all suggestions and made trains and tracks way cheaper and earlier 🙂
thanks again for the feedback!

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this is addictive and has so much potential to play with^^

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starting to see the appeal of making something big like water beavers and admiring even more how much thought and dedication went into it!

red bridge
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which structure gathers bramble flowers without actually breaking them?

still frigate
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none

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But... they regrow in like a day or 2

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The domesticated ones are even better, but they are a late game unlock.

red bridge
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i can always go florist ig