#What NOT to add

155 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

robust nimbus
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When making an RTS, units in the same faction overlapping in terms of filling in roles is the LAST thing you want to do, and you may ask why. Well, I'll give you an example from a famous RTS, StarCraft 2.

The Firebat and Hellion are both anti-light units that wield flamethrowers, meaning they have the same role, however, the Hellion is cheaper, does more damage, has more area of effect damage, and is more mobile in return for having less health than the Firebat and being unlocked later in the game. Due to the Hellion's advantages in a PVP scenario, the Firebat remained obsolete in multiplayer matches and was rarely built, making the Firebat useless. So, the developers of StarCraft 2 made the Firebat a campaign-exclusive unit.

What does this have to with Stick War 3? Well, Stick War 3 being an RTS (And having been inspired by StarCraft 2) would have the same problems if we added a unit such as the Spearton Dead, which would overlap with the Juggerknight and either get overshadowed by the Juggerknight or make the Juggerknight useless in the current meta, creating a situation similar to the Firebat-Hellion scenario we see in StarCraft 2.

So please, next time you make a fan idea, think about what role it fills in and if it shares the same role with a unit that is currently in the game.

open smelt
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déjà vu

robust nimbus
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Prolly

barren garden
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With spearton dead and jugg. 1 has the dead trait and buffed by acid rain. Different speed which is same type of deal as crawler and dead. Both light chaos. 1 dead and 1 not dead.

But yea. With future things i can see this becoming a problem

robust nimbus
barren garden
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A bunch of deads are very high dps also buffed by acid rain.
Depends on build and play type. I cant really use deads. Too slow for me. But others can.
Spearton dead probably too slow so I stick with juggs while others will prefer the spearton deads.

Some overlap might just have to be. As long as there are different play types it should be fine. Thats what makes a multiplayer game. Different people different strategy.

robust nimbus
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Some overlap can be justified if it’s for different factions

abstract sedge
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thing is, spearton deads can become early game heavy units and there's no such unit that's heavy in early game (I'm not supporting them getting added, I'm just saying)

robust nimbus
barren garden
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Order ones. But who would use a miner as a tank. A bad one at that

robust nimbus
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True

bronze heron
abstract sedge
abstract sedge
robust nimbus
abstract sedge
robust nimbus
barren garden
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Dead builds. Acid rain buffing it.

royal beacon
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man, spearton deads will always be a sensitive topic

robust nimbus
abstract sedge
abstract sedge
abstract sedge
barren garden
# robust nimbus Aren’t deads the tank themselves?

I have cleared big numbers of deads. Depends on build. But if lets say spearos and a gang of archidons melt deads you might want some spearton deads in there. Plus units that do bonus to light will be less efective

abstract sedge
royal beacon
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so, why would spearton deads be a bad idea to add?

royal beacon
abstract sedge
royal beacon
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someone must permanently settle this by doing an in depth analysis of how spearton deads would work compared to every other unit that it would affect or contest

abstract sedge
toxic jolt
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add no hard counters to this post

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i dont want to see a post of "kill all ranged" spell

robust nimbus
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That kills using those units not a hard counter

indigo nova
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Know that many things have similar roles but everything serves its own purpose

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Nothing is exactly the same

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Unless they have the exact same stats of course

robust nimbus
indigo nova
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Juggerknight and speartons fill a similar role

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With some differences

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They both serve as a heavy unit with decent damage

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Yet they are considered different

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It's not up to the meta it's up to the specific purpose and general purpose

robust nimbus
robust nimbus
indigo nova
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No

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The factions can have major affects

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Chaos allows jugg for poison and immunity

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Order allows for every order buff

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Different factions can affect the effect applicable to the units

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Eminer and miner are almost exactly the same

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But as you can see the different tags give them all the difference

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Other than health

robust nimbus
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No I like I mean that units in the same faction with the same role are bad

indigo nova
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Just as long as there's a difference

royal beacon
robust nimbus
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So you’re saying killing off units isn’t bad?

royal beacon
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killing them off isn’t always the outcome

rotund ridge
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Im not gonna read all dis

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Ded sperton bad

robust nimbus
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It’s basic logic

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One unit does same thing better than other unit leading to other unit getting killed off

indigo nova
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The fact that their health is only as much as spearton while being dead speed and low damage makes it fair cuz it can be used as a wall that can stall a single egiant solo for around 40 sec enough time for you to make more units before another one arrives

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I have done a few calculations, and if given the rang damage reduction as well as the knockback and stun resistance it is basically a strong meatshield until you get swordwratg spammed cuz this guys have low damage

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Around normal dead damage

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Which is 7dps

robust nimbus
indigo nova
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Your words contradict

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Dead is a light unit meant for mass production and meat shielding but demolished with area damage and crowd control

Juggerknights are heavy tanks meant for heavy damage and damage absorbers while still weak against large groups and crowd control

Tank deads are immune to crowd control other than freeze and strong against area damage while still too weak to create any severe damage without any higher number

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They are also still weak to mass crowds such as swordwrath spamm and shadowrath spamm and even magikill spamm

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This ones main purpose is tanking damage

dry talon
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I'm pretty sure juggs main purpose is to tank too

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But a speardead would be good, as long as it's balanced and isn't too similar to juggs

robust nimbus
indigo nova
royal beacon
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the difference may not be large but its going to matter in making a deck

robust nimbus
royal beacon
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huh

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that kinda isn’t in line with what i just said

robust nimbus
lone mauve
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Reading through all this

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I have found some interesting things

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I think the main take away is that even if there are two similar units in the same faction one is never going to be objectively better then the other, because depending on what deck you use the best unit for the job is going to change.

lone mauve
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The "better" ranged dps unit isn't always going to be the same.

lone mauve
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Let's say there are 2 almost identical units. Same faction, stats, abilities. The only difference is that one of them has reduced cost and training time. Obviously everyone would use the better unit no matter the deck.

But the developers would see that, and make some changes to both of the units.

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So that they are more different from one another

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The devs aren't fucking™® blind

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They aren't just going to let that happen

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And leave it be

robust nimbus
lone mauve
robust nimbus
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Even with differences, the unit still does it's basic job better than the other worse unit

lone mauve
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And what deck you use

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Compare jug and spearton

Jug is objectively better

toxic jolt
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If this is the case devs would add a gimick

lone mauve
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Doesn't mean jug is always going to be used in every deck

toxic jolt
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Bad timing lol

lone mauve
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That requires a tank

toxic jolt
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Didnt mean to type that after ur message

lone mauve
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Lol

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Message sandwich

robust nimbus
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The units I mentioned, the firebat and hellion have their fair share of differences

toxic jolt
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If any units are too simmilar just add a gimick and lower stats

lone mauve
toxic jolt
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I personaly think is a good way to balance simmilar things

lone mauve
robust nimbus
robust nimbus
lone mauve
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Huh on paper they seem pretty balanced

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Well I haven't played StarCraft 2

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So I don't have much say on those units

robust nimbus
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They do, but the fact that the hellion does the anti-light job better is mostly the reason why the firebat was mostly unused

lone mauve
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I guess it all boils down to game mechanics and specific

robust nimbus
lone mauve
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Because from my pov things like spearton dead and pouncer dead aren't a bad idea

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And wouldn't cause any overshadowing or undershadowing

robust nimbus
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That would be the case if the developers could make the units manage to be unique enough, which is hard to do

lone mauve
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It seems easy

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I mean the community can easily do it

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They can't agree on what exactly

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But the devs probably could

robust nimbus
# lone mauve It seems easy

Blizzard, one of the creators of the game that started Esports, failed to balance 2 units from overlapping

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It's harder than it looks

robust nimbus
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The differences in question:
Conscript:
Cheaper than the War bear
Can attack vehicles
Can attack structures
Can clear garrisons with secondary weapon
Can destroy walls with secondary weapon
More range than the war bear (War bear is melee)
War bear:
Trains faster than the Conscript
More damage against infantry
Bulkier than the conscript
Can stun enemy infantry in a small area with special ability
Amphibious
Faster than the conscript

royal beacon
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the thing with hellion and firebat is that they ultimately fullfill the same role, or one is a direct upgrade from the other, while both units can be available at the sametime. sw3 has a deck system that you must build your best strategy. speartons and juggerknights are both tanks, but their goal as a tank is different, a spearton is a defensive tank that excels at taking many but smaller amounts of damages due to a flat damage reduction, however it causes the spearton to get slower and attack slower, a juggerknight excels at charging at front protecting even other melee units and potentially kill weaker units because it has damage plus it has autoheal and cure. speartons would struggle against a magikill or a giant and would definetely require UC or support , a jugg can charge through and have a chance to leave magikills vulnerable to other juggs or other units or do more dmg to giants if the giant can’t knock them all. enchanted pike is not all benefits either, its level 1 needs to meet the requirement in order to work, plus longer range means the spearton would let other melee units go infront of them and take damage because unlike a jugg who charges head first, a spearton slows down and stays with its attack reach.

i would choose a spearton if i need a pure defensive unit who im fine with even if it can’t do reliable damage.

i would choose juggs if they would be needed as a part of my army strategy, aka their charge and damage.

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another similarities are giants and egiants, giants are unmatched in terms of anti heavy, a giant also automatically covers other range units along with a reliable stun that renders a controlled amount of melee enemies more than half less innefective that can potentially help other melee units. Egiant on the other hand only excels with its range, im not going to talk about its damage/splash and HP because we all know its busted af that everyone agrees with. while in most giant balance argument i see one point that will be said is that the giant simply doesn’t fit the current meta, or the rather terrible balance of the game.

royal beacon
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basically, if both hellion and firebat is presented at you, you will choose hellion because its only downside is being unlocked late, but if they are both presented then that downside is useless

if both spear and jugg is presented, you can analyze which traits from them would benefit you the most, they are both near the same value anyway.

clash royale is a good example, there are cards you can safely say that is weak, underperforming, or underrated, but if you find a good deck with them they are gonna work, even the weakest cards for years can skyrocket in popularity if there is a deck that fits them.

robust nimbus
abstract sedge
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hellion can transform into Hellbat which is firebat but better

lone mauve
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So basically this issue isn't much of a worry, because the way SW3's mechanics are set up in a way that allows for underperforming cards to excel if given the chance.

royal beacon
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kinda

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i think it would also work with that hellion vs firebat issue being a direct upgrade, because if a unit would be a direct improvement of an already existing unit, that would be added as an upgrade card for that existing unit or as a general card, not as another unit card

robust nimbus
abstract sedge
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good, cuz they wanted to fully replace them coffedusa

robust nimbus
abstract sedge
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good good, I understand now

lone mauve
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So mainly the units themselves were not designed right

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Or maybe the people just didn't see their purpose

lone mauve
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The way the units were intended.

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I think this idea should be rephrased to

"Don't add units that replace an already existing unit's role and abilities."

Instead of

"Don't add similar units"

lone mauve
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Because it seems like hellion was favored over firebat because it more or less replaced firebat (which is just bad design from the devs)

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Oh also sorry if this is very incorrect

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I know little to nothing about StarCraft 2

robust nimbus
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Firebat is actually decent at taking damage, but damage usually is better than durability in most RTS games, as dead enemies can't do damage

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So since the hellion's damage is a lot better than the firebat, it turned out being a lot more useful

royal beacon
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move on with the hellion vs firebat

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one is an upgrade of the other