Feeling from a new player and playing couple of hours

[jolly crow]

Hi, I'm Alex.

A couple of day ago, a friend suggested me to play BAR since it would be a good STR for LAN parties and free.

About my experience, I played many campaigns of TA, SupCom, SupCom 2, SC1 BW, SC2 (a bit of 1v1 up to platinum !), PA, and many other RTS, …

6 months ago I tried BAR: interface looked old, with too many info, I played first scenario which is really long and I uninstalled.
Now I gave it another try. This time I see all addition many other game have and it looks great but interface looks still old and full of info.

There is many, many things to learn in this game. Maybe too much.

Playing the 4th scenario in normal, my first game I've been rushed by scouts and loose my mexes ! why scouts can fire ? 😮 After I've finished this scenario 3 times but never before T3 units !
5th scenario is kind of the opposite: AI does not go naval fast enough, but creates tons of T1 bots engineers that cannot go in the water. The game is still long and requires T3 units but is too easy on naval point.

Honestly, to help new players, scenarios should add infostep by step (even on interface) in 20-30 scenarios.

I also regret there is not a native unit formation helper on a basic right click. Drawing is nice but does not add much. Using alt or ctrl is not intuitive.

Learning how to use wind efficiently is interesting but add complexity, that vanish once players have access to reactors. I would prefer having fewer buildings so players can concentrate their effort on managing the economy with simple info.
About units, just with bots and vehicles, I have too many units to use and learn (haven't used air yet). But there are also amphibians and all variations! Really too much.

To conclude, yes, the game is well done, needs a bit of finishing, and can be a great game in its style.
But it an expert game and requires really too much investment for a LAN parties with newbies in TA universe ^^

Thanks for your efforts, I hope my suggestions will help.

[orchid trail]

initial scenarios having a curated environment seems nice

[jolly crow]

Hi, yes. I had not enough text to write my idea but here is how I see initial scenarios:
T1.1 - taking hand on building and creating T1 bots. Easy interface with low building count, unit count, no advanced moves, no wind or tide.
T1.2 - economy undertanding using wind.
T1.3 - 1 - 2 vehicule entry, movement tricks and radar
T1.4 - challenge player vs IA
T1.5 - include some air units. include spread attacks
T1.6 - include naval unit. teach about tides, sonar and submarines
T1.7 - challenge player on a map with wind variance and sea
T1.8 - include advanced bots
T1.9 - advanced vehicules
T2.1 - teach when and how T2 industry works
T2.x - repeat previous steps for T2
T3.1 - teach when and how build T3 units

[digital thorn]

That is all great feedback, totally agree those changes would help new players. If you're still looking for guides/help, here's a playlist on YT of guides that will help. After those there's also a lot of gameplay on the channel. I stream as well, feel free to hop in chat too. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL8QMsyaPraYnXnmuG0mhQ68_kei8lB7XK . I've also played through the scenarios on Brutal if you're interested in those!

[jolly crow]

Thanks. Fine guide and YT playlist. However I don't see people in LAN party checking these content before playing. In this context a game must be easy to learn, without external resources ^^
Maybe it could be an idea to have different build option depending on expected complexity. Like a setting panel to select build options before starting a game ? (I haven't checked if it exists) At least, it looks easy to do.
I hope it would help to get a larger audience.

If any time, some want to show me how to create a such panel, and/or create maps to help newbie, I'd like to learn 😉
(I've created W3 maps a long time ago, and I'm dev as well)

[delicate dew]

That sounds good.
How willing are you to actually dive deep into map creation?

There are ways to manipulate build lists before you start a game.
No air or something.
But not something like: just T1.

To create a list of your own you would need tweaks.

They are essentially a way to manipulate anything that is written in the unit Luas.

Here is the bar code

https://github.com/beyond-all-reason/Beyond-All-Reason#development-quick-start

Here is an example of a huge tweak.

You compile it with code 64 and off you go.

[jolly crow]

Ty, I'll check this

[hidden horizon]

Overall, an unclear set of feedback points:

• What makes the interface look new? What info seem too much / redundant?
• What are things to learn that are too much compared to other games?
• Scouts can fire because they're intended to also raid unprotected economy buildings. Otherwise they have an extremely short effective viability.
• You're not necessarily want your units to hold a formation. Drawing means ou can position units as much as you like. In fact, drawing is so good it makes playing other RTS hard without having that function.
• There are less buildings once you know what all of them are used for. Until then they can all feel like a blob. Same is true for units.
• Its better to have a game with many opportunities for learning and strategic creativity, than to have a primitive layout, that is driven on the same predictable rails. Again, it does not feel as too much as soon as you actually learn how different units are. Then you cannot really say which units are exceesive and can be removed.

[jolly crow]

Nice feedback, thanks. I'll take it point by point:

• About UI main menu: having the menu bar, multi game list, welcome panel and above other buttons looks like an overload of info. To compare in PA, once game is started there is only a single menu bar, separated by a frame, and a transparent welcome panel with a single button. If a player want to check shortcuts or multi game list, it open a new menu. There is also a button in menu bar to access official guides.

• In game UI:

  • menu bar in top right corner looks optional for me, it can be accessible on ESC press or a single "Menu" button.
  • Since full map can be viewed using tab or zoom out, minimap looks optional too
  • tooltip area overload UI too: I think it should be display only if mouse goes over a building icon or a unit
  • tooltip itself has lot of data for a newbie, I'm not sure a player need to know exact dps or unit speed before more experience in game, but that's true quickly it become useful
  • in building menu: looks massive, even if there is a try to order by role. Using frames to separate columns can be nice here.
  • advanced move/behavior options are verbose, there is a lot of options, and takes time to practice.

I have a suggestion, but I'm not a game designer, do what you want with it ^^

Once game starts, zoom out completely so player have a quick look.
Remove minimap, player can access to it through other ways (tab, zoom, settings)
Show time, fps, music in top left corner
Place player list in middle left without background frame, just a text shadow
Place move/behavior option in a column on the middle right. Just use icons, text can appear by moving mouse cursor over.
Now there is a lot of space in the bottom of the screen. When a build unit is selected, place 3 frames in the bottom middle of the screen.
Use icons to explain tooltip, so there is less text to read.
Collapse save/stat/... bar in a single menu button.

These are my idea, I'm sure you have your reasons to do this way, but again, UI feels really loaded when not prepared ^^
(I'll come back later to discuss other points)