⭐ Quit Moments

[muted bronze]

missing one turn also = 30min+ delay

[jovial niche]

These are some of the points that are slowing me down as well.

At first, it was the slowdown of crafting. The fiber stuff is more difficult to get than the ore stuff, so I lost some steam leveling tailoring and swapped back to blacksmithing. Mining and blacksmithing is comparatively easy to level, so I swapped back from cleric to paladin/demon knight.

But the skill gains post 30 slow down so much I realized I'd hit 35 tailoring or blacksmithing long before I could use the equipment I could make, so crafting really went on the backburner. Feels like there's no reason to push those levels when I need to focus on the relevant armor and weapon skills.

So I went back to grinding and doing monster hunter quests, but the mobs are so HP spongy and the skill gains are much slower than previous tiers. Definitely makes leveling two types of classes (heavy/melee and light/magic) much less appealing at these levels, so the whole fun of class swapping for different approaches/strategies/gameplay styles not favorable if I'm trying to progress to the next tier.

Also, there are no new abilities to unlock post 25 discipline, so no goals to go after there.

So with my motivation for crafting on the backburner (won't be able to use new gear anyway) and no new abilities to work towards, my only path forward is grinding mobs that feel worth the time to kill vs. skill gains (which are not many since they are so HP spongy now).

Just running out of carrots to chase and the stick is getting much, much longer, so to speak.

[woeful shale]

900 excellent elemental stones. 🗿

[tiny scroll]

Its really fun and worth the reward!!

[gritty elk]

Not speaking for myself personally, as I haven't experienced it, but saw in chat a new player asking why all their items disappeared when they got new bags... Not sure if that one quit or not, but that 100% would be a quit moment for a lot of new players.

[jagged thicket]

This is a rare bug that occurs around 1 in 1000 players, we are working on a fix

What we do in these situations is simply restore a backup of the character, and grant all of the xp/levels/items/talents/key quests/etc back to the player and a little extra for the inconvenience

So in short, if this does happen, we will always remedy it asap

[gritty elk]

Ah, that's good to hear. Also glad to know it's pretty rare. When I got gifted new bags I was cautioned to bank everything first, so it made it sound like it was more common.

[lone seal]

new lvling meta, find the bug on purpose, profit.

[jagged thicket]

Care to elaborate?

[lone seal]

oh sorry mate i just meant find the wipe bug on purpose, get some bonus exp for the inconvenience and repeat. just being a clown, forgive haha

[brazen rose]

"i swear my old toon had 40 apples of persistence"

[brazen rose]

Just want to make sure I understand the scope of your leveling experience. Are you saying it takes a long time to gain skill experience, or combat experience, or both?

The increased health actually was designed to give you equal skill xp and combat xp. The idea for leveling is that 0-20 is normal mode, 20-30 is nightmare mode, and 30-40+ is hell mode in terms of the amount of preparation you need to successfully optimize a mob. That being said, you said that you'd be able to craft gear way faster than when you'd be able to make them. Are you fighting at-level mobs? Is it the fact that monster hunter causes you to fight higher-level mobs the issue for you?

I need to see all the variables on the table in order to understand if it's a part of the design of the leveling experience or lack of knowledge on how to optimize the leveling process.

Another thing to keep in mind is that Ethyrial is supposed to mimic designs of runescape. The game is intended to bring spurts of activity for a gamer, where he/she does content, stops and takes a break, comes back, etc

[merry sand]

Not the OP but for me I'm 34/35+ in most professions while only being able to use level 30 gear. I've outpaced what I can craft and use. What this has done for me is make me feel like I have to go grind to get my combat skills up. I feel disincentivized from pushing crafting levels which takes away some enjoyable parts of the gameplay loop.

For MH I'm getting 35 mobs as a lvl 32 with level 30 gear. Depending on the class I'm playing these tasks are barely doable to impossible. This is with vendor food and sovereign pots. Maybe TP and the mana-infused bear will help get more resist pots but for now mh tasks are brutal to do. Every mob is a fight for your life, you have to rest after, making it take like... 40m-1 hour to do a single task. I imagine I need to hit level 33+ in most my combat skills to get 7.5 gear but I'm still in that "go grind" loop to get there. (It could be too I don't understand what extra preparation steps I'm missing here)

For now I've decided to mess around on different classes which down-levels me quite a bit but will hopefully pay off in the long run. For now though it's brutal trying to bring, say magic/ranged, from 1-33 when melee is nearly there.

[brazen rose]

Good insight, thank you

[brazen rose]

so theoretically if you fought at-level mobs, would your experience be more fun? Is this all driven by monster hunter?

[jovial niche]

Hmmm give me a moment to wake up and organize my thoughts. I never played Runescape so I don't have that comparison to make, but I'll try my best to give comparable examples.

[merry sand]

MH has always been my fallback when I just need to grind, as it keeps things fresh by going to different spots and working on that profession.

Gear matters a lot in this game and I think it's important to feel weak at certain points but maybe +3 levels is just too high and 0 - +2 would be better? I don't know how the math works on the backend but right now I'm in T7 gear fighting T8 mobs (lvl 30 gear, lvl 35 mobs) and I think I'm feeling that power disparity; especially with the power spike and effects a lot of 35+ gear has.

I would say that this is NOT all driven by MH though. With the jump in difficulty when you hit 30+ it just makes progress slower and more of a slog. I think there's a lack of meaningful content in the 30s. Doing previous content doesn't feel valuable unless you're going for a specific chase item. So yea, #gogrind is the vibe.

[brazen rose]

So in my opinion, and @jagged thicket can validate this: When we tested the 28+ mob experience, we tested with gear that would be comparable to being able to kill a mob +3 levels higher than you with the gear at that level. So, a level 30 could kill a level 33 mob relatively easily with decent ttk (like 18s for a dps class). A level 30 fighting a level 30 should be able to kill a mob in 12-13 seconds with level 30 gear (again, dps class).

Another thing, do you feel like there aren't enough players to run dungeons? is getting gear from them not the issue for you personally?

[merry sand]

Levels 28-32 have felt like a complete no-mans land. I don't see any groups for DL, Dolenar, or LoE. I could be part of the problem here though. I've only tried to make a party for any of these a handful of times (no success thus far though).

[jovial niche]

So, I do not know the design goals so this is all through the lens of a first time player up to level 29.

There are three (interconnected) paths of progression participate in. Gathering/crafting (my favorite), combat/skills (sometimes fun), and quests (mileage may vary here). I'll focus on the first two since those have been my primary gameplay loop.

From level 1 until 18, gathering/crafting and combat/skill levels progressed at about the same speed, and the whole loop there felt rewarding. I'd level to 5 combat/skills, be motivated to gather in order to level crafting to make new gear, then go out and grind to use the new gear. Again at levels 8, 13, 18.

Leveling combat and skills did slow down after around level 18, and felt much slower after level 25. At combat level 29 and magic/light 31, it is incredibly slow.

Gathering/crafting has also slowed down, but still outpaces combat/skills. Grinding out combat and skill experience became less enjoyable (more on this in a moment), so I started to focus more on the gathering/crafting side. I'm almost skill 35 herbalism, 32 tailoring/blacksmithing, 28 jewelcrafting, and 28 alchemy. I then realized I could already make the best gear I can wear (restricted by skill/combat levels) and use the best consumables I can make (restricted by combat level). I could keep grinding those gathering and crafting skills, but the motivation isn't there since my combat level and skill levels need to catch up.

Which leads me back to the grind. Up until level 27/28, enemies felt reasonably challenging and gave reasonable gains. It was slower than levels 1-20, yes, but I could see the progress. Level 29 and higher enemies are a big difficulty/HP jump and do not feel like they give gains that correlate with that jump.

For example, I can farm (level 27?) tricksters near endlessly and they give 239 combat exp and take 5 hits to kill. A (level 30?) troll takes much longer to kill and gives 540 combat exp.

1/?

[brazen rose]

Fair, the jump in HP was to correct the skill xp per kill

[jovial niche]

I forget the magic/light/discipline exp they give, but it correlated with the combat exp gains reasonably well. I could kill 3-4 tricksters in the same time it takes to kill 1 troll, get almost twice the combat and skill gains, and have less downtime. So I find myself not engaging more challenging content and instead farming less challenging, more rewarding, lower level mobs.

This leads me to questing, which there isn't a whole lot of. Primarily just monster hunting quests, which I read about in previous discussions as a way to bridge the gap between fast combat experience gains and slower gains in magic/light skills.

Unfortunately, Van wants me to kill much more difficult stuff than level 27 tricksters. Trolls are probably the easiest target there, because light manifestations, ebonshades (?), etc are much more difficult and the gains are less than I would expect for the difficulty jump. It ends up being a better use of time to ignore Van and just farm the tricksters. It doesn't feel rewarding or very engaging, but it's the best use of my time playing. And I have to make good use of that time because I need to level those skills up to get back to crafting, which is my favorite part of the game thus far.

[brazen rose]

To me this still feels like a MH issue

[jovial niche]

So the earlier levels went by more quickly and the whole gathering/crafting/combat/skill loop was more closely intertwined and felt like the progressed together in a natural way.

Approaching level 30, gathering and crafting seem much more disconnected from the loop as combat and other skills are lagging behind, and there isn't a good way to get them to catch up. It is quite the slog, and there aren't any other carrots to chase, so to speak. No lateral or slightly diagonal progression, so to speak. My only way forward is to grind out light armor 33 so I can wear the next set of armor, magic 33 to use the next staff, and combat 30 to use the next buff potion and set of jewelry.

That being said, I am excited about this new mama bear boss because it feels like a new carrot to chase that is relevant to my current progression. It has me logging in and trying to hit combat 30 so I can give it a try (and feedback).

[brazen rose]

Yeah I understand that. I think there is a lack of content, which for sure can contribute to it, which will be built out over time. I just made a solo boss for level 30 which should help, but I need to think about this experience a bit. I'm worried that the way the experience is set up makes it difficult to fix the scaling from a 27 to a 28 mob

[jovial niche]

As an aside, I did pick up several other classes, but after feeling the slowdown on priest approaching level 30, I can't bring myself to try and level melee/heavy armor in parallel. It feels better to focus on just one class at this time.

[brazen rose]

another thing is that ryan and I will be working on maps, which will start at level 35. Huge endeavor that will take a lot of time, but certainly will be obtainable

but yeah, I still need to think about level 28+

[jovial niche]

So other than swapping classes to mess around with even lower level mobs, the whole switching classes for other playstyles thing is also not a carrot to chase. I'm still trying to get my clothie up to level and don't want to grind it out with whole new weapon and armor types right now.

And there's no new abilities to learn after discipline 25, so no new playstyles for my current class (which is fine, I like the priest playstyle, but just another thing to not chase).

So the gameplay currently boils down to the either the slog of trying to do Van quests (which are less rewarding but more challenging) or grinding tricksters (which are more rewarding but very boring).

[gritty elk]

My experience does feel similar. I think there is an overarching problem that exists before the levels, but isn't nearly as felt... And that is that due to the semi-rigid tier system, it's not really a 40 level game, it's more of an 8 level game. If your next real point of progression isn't for 5 more levels, those in between levels don't really exist. Levels 1-4 (1-20) don't feel bad, but then when level 5 takes a week, and level 6 might take 2-3, and level 7 could take a month or more... It becomes demoralizing. Just too long between feelings of progress to keep that dopamine rolling.

[brazen rose]

We want this paradigm, though. This is the runescape way

However, the last comment about dopamine could be improved

[jovial niche]

I have played tons of other MMOs over the last 30 years, but never Runescape, so I don't know how any of them might compare to this.

There was one that also had an experience level (combat level) and a separate skill level for every weapon type and magic skill. Magic users learned a new spell or two at every new skill levels, so even though they took a while to grind out you always had something to look forward to when you got that skill up.

There was no crafting, but all gear was tied to experience level and there were many, many bosses and RDT type drops so you always had something to chase for your current level. The grind for levels and skills was pretty insane, but each level/skill level felt impactful in their own right, so always a carrot to chase, so to speak.

If any of that helps elucidate what I meant by lack of pathways to meaningful progression and the carrot on the stick is getting much, much longer.

7/7

[brazen rose]

yeah, this makes sense. So, basically more content so that while you're grinding, you always feel like you're making progress

[jovial niche]

Progress towards something, since the combat and skill experience slows down so much and you need to gain several levels in these to see any return.

And leveling your discipline skill after level 25 doesn't unlock anything new, so that part of the "feeling like you're making progress" equation is removed. It really just comes down to combat and skill levels after that.

Or some way to speed up progress in those areas, like giving an experience bonus for fighting things higher than your level. If a troll gave 4x the gains as a trickster, I'd enjoy that hunt. I think that is antithetical to the Runescape design though?

[jovial niche]

I think more lateral/diagnonal progression at lower tiers might help, but I don't know if this is a good use of dev time and resources.

I guess it depends on player sentiment and attrition at certain level brackets.

[gritty elk]

I haven't been playing that long (maybe 3 weeks?) and you're like the 3rd or 4th person I've seen talking about stagnation and burnout in the late 20s/early 30s. I'm very curious how many more just move on to something else silently. This is 100% a point of player attrition.

[brazen rose]

it's a good proportion. Thats why we built the solo boss bear fight

[tiny scroll]

yeah 100% i kept playing because i liked mob grinding but i am normaly more of a dungeon and pvp player

[bronze arch]

I just want to chime in on this real quick, Opecla and I talked about a little bit yesterday. There seems to be a direct relation between people playing Ethyrial who haven't played RuneScape, and people who struggle with the grinder aspects of the game and its design; also with the goal setting part. I don't know that there's a solution that exists or is needed for this, but it's something I've noticed reading through this and other threads.

[woeful shale]

I played osrs for 6k hours. I am still absolutely HATING grinding out 900 ex stones. Big antifun grind

[bronze arch]

We're in the same ballpark hours wise, though I've been playing RuneScape in some way shape or form for 20 years at this point. Not entirely sure on my exact amount. Did you play Ironman in OSRS?

[woeful shale]

Nah not a fan of ironman modes because i like the grand exchange/tradepost aspects

[bronze arch]

Fair enough. Capitalism can be fun.

[jovial niche]

Is osrs more or less grindy than 2005 Maple Story or The Kingdom of Drakkar

[woeful shale]

Never played those no clue. Osrs has achievements and collection log and diary tasks tho and tons of idle tasks so theres always a way to change up the grind and have fun

Also clue scrolls

[jovial niche]

I also played OG EverQuest, The 4th Coming, and countless random korean MMOs that have come and gone. All were a bit grindy, just don't know how they compare and I need to know where I stand on the osrs grind lol

[woeful shale]

The only thing i have to do in eth to progress/increase strength right now is sit at eles with an abysmal drop rate. For 900 of the thing that has that drop rate. Just not fun at all lol

This wouldnt be as bad if bosses in boc had a chance to drop a few of each stone so youre actually playing the content that the armor is from. Being relegated to sitting out in the middle of nowhere killing elementals with terrible drop rates and nothing else to do around them just feels bad lol

Ive asked every person doing this same grind and they all absolutely hate it

[muted bronze]

flavor-wise Rift dropping ele stones makes more sense

[muted bronze]

similar but can't directly compare

no way to 100% the games in a player's life time

depends on how many goals u set for yourself

if you don't factor in anything that requires absurd rng

maybe 10s of thousands of hours

[jovial niche]

I do factor those things in. I spent like 70 hours trying to get a pot lid from green mushrooms.

So I'm probably on board with the osrs style grind and I feel like my experience in Ethyrial is valid lol

[muted bronze]

I think a lot of the burnout with BoC and people's feeling that the armor is not strong enough is not actually a problem with the grind/armor themselves

at the moment it is endgame, and there's nothing the power boost directly enable and facilitate

aka, no place to showcase the power in a noticible way

once other lategame content comes out, I'd imagine the sentiment will shift somewhat

in term of the stats on paper, BoC armor is actually quite excellent

[muted bronze]

are you using lvl 30 weapons?

The new bear boss is actually quite impactful on the power curve

the weapons made from her drops are similar to t8 in stat, a big power spike

also are tricksters weak to your damage type? cause that might skew the comparison

[jovial niche]

I am using the absolute best I can at 29 combat, 31 magic/light, with food and elixir

Tricksters are not weak to my damage type

I think they are weak to demonic and I'm swinging divine or arcane

[muted bronze]

there's also a combat lvl adjustment in difficulty, as you are higher lvl compared to the enemy, they get easier

once you are 30, trolls get easier

once 33, even easier

I think the exp curve 26-30 can use some smoothing out though

for combat exp at least

[jovial niche]

I think I do the same damage to trolls but I didn't pay enough attention to be sure

Trolls are just an example though. Everything is harder and not the best use of grinding time. Treehounds, ebonshades, light manifestations, etc

Trolls are actually the easiest of the bunch I feel

[muted bronze]

aside from TTK there's also loot/respawn timer considerations

light manifestation is DEFINITELY in neeed of adjustment imo

[jovial niche]

Best to kill tricksters or those little flying dragons by draklings

[muted bronze]

that specifically

[jovial niche]

Honestly forest drakes are still good if you count the primordials

Treants too

[muted bronze]

it depends on class

at 28 I think treehounds was amazing for DmJ

DmK

[jovial niche]

Tbh I'm going priest for all of it

Illusionist might kill faster but not by much, and has more downtime

[muted bronze]

yeah priests def have things you'd be better against

[jovial niche]

Infuser definitely kills faster but the pets are still janky and also has more downtime

[muted bronze]

||give soulreapers a try, let me know how it works for u||

soulreapers are def what i grinded for ez exp

[jovial niche]

And I'm still like 25 melee/heavy on paladin/dmk because I don't want to grind to 30 on new skills when my main classes aren't there yet

[muted bronze]

as empyrian class

[bronze arch]

I think the difference in RuneScape is in the why of the grind, rather than the how or how long it is.

The level up is the dopamine hit. Big dramatic rewards or power increases might not come at every level, and skill levels are on a heavy exponential curve; the curve in ethyrial feels very similar. So earlier levels fly, then slow down, and at some point (I noticed it in mid 20 skill levels) the amount of exp required makes huge jumps, and the game slows down. But then every level you get is even more earned, and each one is a step closer to the next upgrade.

There's a reason why I giggle everytime I see or hear someone say that 92 is half of 99.

[jovial niche]

Priest is just very steady. I know if I press my attack button x times the mob will be dead, and if I need to throw in another skill for healing

[woeful shale]

38 is halfway to 40

[muted bronze]

also I think Ryan's working on the class skill augment system, which is something else that provides future goalpost for class specific skills

[bronze arch]

Idk. RuneScape formula is hard to explain, but it's got new life here. I think variety of content is the biggest hurdle from that fully landing, but that's been discussed adnauseam.

[bronze arch]

Fuck yeah. I'm here for that shit.

[jagged thicket]

bump

[plain tide]

the topic of late-game fatigue:
I have been leading a medium-sized guild for 4 months now, and have been observing consistently the same patterns of player regression.

The game is grindy, we know it, we love it, and we hate it at times.

Most players who give it a serious try reach the 30-36 area; then the grind from 36 to 38 kills the motivation. Dolenar and Rift really help, but I still think it might be too steep here.

Then DLP gives a boost, the xp is better, you have a chance at the weapons, and you have progress steadily. You can grind the BiS items, and it feels so much better after that. You get your weapons, and life is sweet. Now you do BoC, have some good runs with the boys, and look forward to the pinnacle content. You do 5-10 runs on the first day, and have enough mats for the gear. But wait, BOC is the easy part of this gear; now all you have left to do is grind the stones. While I personally enjoyed that journey, I also understand it feels abysmal to get stones every 10 mobs, and it is much less fun than doing the BOC runs with your friends.

And that's it. I see a lot of people getting out at the 36-38 grind and during/right after the stone grind. While I have done this and will continue to play, I also understand why they get fatigued at these points.

So, what to do? I'm not sure, but here are some things I would enjoy:

• Vertical progression? Lost Ark had some great vertical progression system ships, monokos, collectables all kinds of vacky crap that felt impactful. I know we have pets, but they don't actually do anything.
• Endgame progression system? The armour is already a minor improvement, so maybe include some kind of empowerment system that uses a token from group content, then you use the tokens to give the items minor increases. Just an example, but anything that gives motivation to do the same (especially group content) over and over again, other than a minuscule chance for a trinket. Maybe create a rune system where you stack the runes from tier 1-10 and you need to double the amount of runes needed each tier, so if you have a tier 10 rune in the armour it you need 1024 t1 runes from the dungeon.
• Make Tundrath great again. Make him a real world boss. Idk I have done him 50 times and he kinda just falls over. It can be done with 3-4 people pretty fast. No major dmg mechanics, but that might just be the earthguard issue. Or mby a new one, that is a challenge for high geared players.
• Daily things, if done right, rested xp or anything similar for comeback enforcement.

My best moments in this game have been in the content with others; we need more reasons to do this content and more of that content.

Making this easier could be remaking most of the group content to lvl 40 in wow "heroic version" lookalike, so we have more variaton of things to do late game

[mortal gazelle]

I like the harder Tundrath idea. I’d like to see a frozen Tundrath world boss based in a epic cave that can be unfrozen with a dropped item. Instead of waiting for reset, farm for da drop. Due to timezone differences I haven’t touch the tundrath boss in ages. 🤔

[brazen rose]

Maps start at level 35, so this will completely transform the game from 35+

I have some ideas for vertical progression that I'm discussing with ryan. We want to improve enchants a lot and make more of them

I also floated some ideas with on-relic-equipped talents that activate based on your discipline level with that relic

[odd sluice]

I unfortunately think the New Tutorial is causing lots of issues. Still buggy and keep seeing new players with issues. I have gone in and tested a new char each time and sometimes its a them issue and sometimes its the general state of the tutorial, I like it and I am also in the process of breaking it from a different perspective XD.
-But one that I noticed happens frequently, when you walk up and the little back and forth at the statues, the game will lock up or you will get the issue where you disappear and auto walk forward. You can click the minmap to move at that point but it will repeat. When trying to relog there is a chance that you appear in the void. A lot of current players know work arounds but a brand new player is going to get frustrated and give up before even starting the game. Sorry for the book.

[tawdry storm]

I agree about lv 30+ burnout especially if you cant get groups for things(Our guilds been trying our best but its hard to field multiple groups due to lack of tank/heals) -- As for tundrath, I agree. Make him harder, make it a rare drop to get inside a blocked cave that has a portal in it. Make it so the portal when you leave spawns you back outside the(now blocked) cave?

[brazen rose]

oh?

the game does freeze you at the statues

but it should unfreeze you

[odd sluice]

Yes, theres the intended but the game bogs down

[brazen rose]

im confused

[plain tide]

can they be done in groups?

[brazen rose]

ya

but the intent is eventually soloing it

[brazen rose]

im not getting this issue. Can you show me an example with video or something?

[tawdry storm]

I have a weird question, Is it possible to make two variants? Make the group ver harder, but give group-scaled rewards so that you can do either version. Some people REALLY enjoy the grouping aspect

[plain tide]

ya agree

[brazen rose]

that's up to ryan

[tawdry storm]

not saying make either better than the other, maybe scale reward/exp to 3-4 people for group variant

[brazen rose]

right now, we are designing it to kinda be on the end of solo-side

group-specific stuff will have to be an enhancement after

[tawdry storm]

Fair, I just know a couple people that definitely enjoy the grouping part of our level bracket and will miss it if we outgear/pace it in our 40's

[odd sluice]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ri1uD0TQf8

Fast fwd brain no worky

[brazen rose]

that looks like a caching issue

try to clear your cache and start again

[odd sluice]

Happening to brand new players tho

[brazen rose]

brand new players who have never played the game before?

like never installed it?

[odd sluice]

Seemed that way the other day.

The person was frustrated, because they couldnt even escape and had to ctrl alt f4 out. Didnt see them again to my knowledge.

[brazen rose]

that is very weird, but high priority

i'd want to speak with that person

[odd sluice]

I was trying but they dipped. Had a couple of other that had issues that I couldnt reproduce tho. They ended up making new characters and continuing. But you definitely dont want the quit moments to be at char creation.

[jagged thicket]

they will scale based on the numbers of users that enter the map - basically like the standard ARPGs do - D4/PoE/LE etc

we just have to test / dial-in the scaling to feel right

[odd sluice]

Also, reloaded just fine without clearing anything as long as you arent stuck in the walking animation.

[tawdry storm]

👀 thanks for the confirmation ryan, im sure thatll help some players keep interest at least.

[brazen rose]

@jagged thicket any reason why a new player would experience something like this?

[jagged thicket]

not quite sure yet

[odd sluice]

@brazen rose @jagged thicket read chat in screenshots. Would test, but already late for work ^.^

[brazen rose]

the im confused is a loop

it jsut says the same thing

it forces you to say yes

[odd sluice]

👍

Thought the teleport loading bar popped up immediately for some reason.

[jagged thicket]

bump

[vague fox]

Turn off toggle PVP. Harbingers of Kathanoz gatekeeping Mammy boss is beyond toxic. The highest level players being able to gatekeep content is so bad for the game. Mammy is personalized look yeah?

[plain tide]

its not

gold is personal

[vague fox]

doesn't change the fact that you are gatekeeping content from other players who are approaching that content. We as a guild are able to do the boss, slower sure, but it doesn't have to be leeching a kill. Its toxic that you are able to flag others hostile and kill them with no competition because you guys are the highest level

[plain tide]

chill, it was some sunday sheningans, won't kill you tomorrow

[vague fox]

Cool, just take your word for it...

[tepid dove]

why gatekeep it then?

[plain tide]

because the BIS ring is not

[bronze arch]

To be honest, the fact that other people can toggle you for open world PvP with zero input/consent from you has always bothered me.

It's my biggest turn off about the game; the situation with Mammy I at least understand, assuming you are correct, @plain tide, about the big loot drop; but the only reason I was even there, was because Ryan had previously said loot from Tundrath was personal and participation based. I threw on Priest and figured I'd heal, since my damage would be paltry and death would be instant.

This interaction pretty firmly reinforced my belief that PvP needs attention. There's zero benefit or reward for killing other, lower leveled players when you aren't in the Wildy, or if they aren't carrying trade packs. Since there's no benefit, it just feels toxic and unnecessary. Since there's no consequences for you doing it, there's nothing we can do about it.

[tepid dove]

hm, now im curious too. @jagged thicket could you please explain, how reward from Thundrath works and who have more chance to get lumps, pet or mount?

[jagged thicket]

atm you pretty much just have to hit the boss to be in it's active opponents list and get loot - pretty rudimentary check

[loud birch]

yeah why can't you guys see it as a fun part of the game you're trying to hit the mammoth to leech some loot

and we are killing you for fun

[jagged thicket]

no one has an increased chance over another, just be in the list and it rolls

[loud birch]

it isn't that personal its a game

[vague fox]

You call it leeching, but again, we can still contribute or do the content without you.

[loud birch]

you can have the mammoth another time - we aren't actually trying to gatekeep you

[tepid dove]

what the fun was to wipe us while we beat boss in Dole?

[loud birch]

i'm using the term leech loosely

[loud birch]

i didn't touch you while you killed the boss upstairs

[jovial magnet]

your guild literally has no 40 skinner or 40 LW to my knowledge, you are legit wasting loot, so nah, you cannot do it fully

[loud birch]

you had finished killing a boss and i killed all of you as a joke

[tepid dove]

you do first time

[vague fox]

Cool, you call killing us repeatedly shennanigans, but you ruin our Dole runs and prevent us from doing stuff so you can "Have fun"???

[loud birch]

i'm sorry it truly wasn't meant to be that big of a deal

sec i'll grab something for ya just to remind ya

[bronze arch]

Because if loot is personal, like I originally thought, then it's not leeching. If hitting the mammoth once gets you the same chance to get the 1 big loot drop that can drop as someone who did a quarter of its health, then that needs attention imo.

[jovial magnet]

and tbf, i wasnt gonna do shit and it was just banter till you started pointing fingers out of the blue calling us gatekeeping and being all entitled that it's not a guild boss yada yada

[plain tide]

well agree, but sadly thats how it is

[tepid dove]

are you really calling pvp when someone with the best in gear in the game kills someone who 10 lvl less you?

[loud birch]

yeah its PKing

[vague fox]

Right, but this is only one example of it. How many times have people from your guild run around killing people to troll that makes it immediately unenjoyable for others to do what they wanna do?

[vague fox]

PKing anywhere is terrible design

[loud birch]

i'm sorry but realistically i killed like 3 minutes of your time for a laugh

its an open world dungeon i think you can expect it to be contested

i didn't stay and harass you guys. you finished the dungeon no problem

[vague fox]

contested implies that there is a chance for us to take it back... there is not

[jovial magnet]

idk 2? pretty small number, the thing with Dolenar is that it WOULD be a pvp zone too if the game's population was high enough because guild's were contest it, right now it aint so your guild can just "own" it for 5 hours every day

[jovial magnet]

does it mean that only one instance of lump can drop? for pet and so on too? so lump is checked once from the list of people

[tepid dove]

we dont own, anyone easily can come there and run raid
no way i can imagine any of us will wipe raid there just for fun or even to take a spot

[bronze arch]

I quickly see this becoming an issue once there IS higher player pop, and feel like making it an instance once there is, is the only viable solution. Otherwise ya'll could camp something like Dole all day every day, privatize the loot from it, and sell it on the trading post for a fortune if you were so inclined; and the people that are the level for the content, wouldn't ever even be able to touch it. Because even if 5 people 5-10 levels lower than one of you, tried to force you out, they would get wiped. There isn't a contest.

[jovial magnet]

so i can just walk in dole, and if i see you there, you are just gonna leave it? even before all these where you now think im some murder gremlin

no way

[bronze arch]

I also want confirmation on this, as this is the main point of my entire issue with the mammy incident.

[jovial magnet]

cos if it means that there is only one instance of lump drop, then it's a guild boss bro, sorry

cos fuck would i let a lv37 get the lump when he cant even wear the ring from it

when there are people in my guild that can

[bronze arch]

And if it isn't, that shit was toxic gatekepeeing nonsense

[jagged thicket]

no, the chance is rolled per player for each item, so atm you just tag the boss and have the same chance as anyone

[vague fox]

that right there is entitlement you mentioned before. "You can't do it yet so why should you have anything"

[tepid dove]

eh, after loady have fun in dole robin asks in chat, if someone in dole rn, i told that its free and we are done, thinking that you guys want to run it, so...like, yes way

[bronze arch]

Thank you.

[jovial magnet]

game is pvp

[plain tide]

idk, have done it 64 times and have never seen two people get an item at once

[vague fox]

so easy for you to say when it never affects you negatively

[jovial magnet]

you do know i used to be lower than this

[bronze arch]

Doesn't change what I said 🫡

[jovial magnet]

i was lv30 when the game's population was peaking

200 people online

when Wanted was an alive guild

[loud birch]

fun times

[jovial magnet]

when some guy called C-ck0ld would randomly gank people

[bronze arch]

Do you want the game to grow?

[vague fox]

so you guys went through it, so now we have to? Basically just Hazing

[jovial magnet]

no, funny thing is i never got killed even in those times just knew where to be for my level

[vague fox]

that is inherently an issue though. How do you not see that? You were forced to go certain places and avoid others just because? You couldn't push content or test yourself because other players would kill you?

[jovial magnet]

game had pvp tag, i knew it could happen so i adapted

why i avoided trading for a long time too

[vague fox]

K, but most games with PVP tag don't have it so anyone can kill you regardless of where you are or you having any say in it.

Using this game having a PVP flag is just hiding behind a bigger issue

[plain tide]

no they are right, lets also remove wildlands debuff so we can go group together and kill the world boss there . Lets all be friends!

[next saffron]

Guys enough. From both parties. Can we get pvp removed & save it for Wildlands or something.

[bronze arch]

Wildlands and Trade Packs should absolutely flag you for PvP. You go there, you get a warning, you asked for it.

Gatekeeping a world boss with now confirmed 100% personal loot just because you can though, is some nonsense.

[vague fox]

that is an extreme and not at all what the conversation was about.

[bronze arch]

And the stay in your lane argument really has no ground. Anyway, Ryan made me feel vindicated, I'm good.

[quasi haven]

I'm just curious, as an HC character, can I be killed in the same manner and lose HC status just because someone is bored?

[tepid dove]

afaik only if its HC player

but cant confirm

[jovial magnet]

nah

only if you die in WL

[quasi haven]

Cool, cheers 🫡

[jagged thicket]

bump

[blazing blaze]

everytime my skinning gets cancelled by a dot after killing a mob makes me want to uninstall life

[brazen rose]

What mob?

[jovial magnet]

idk which mobs they encountered, but i can name Leshiis and Ebonshades as examples

[blazing blaze]

@brazen rose regular bears, adders

i think dots also keep you in combat which is a bit annoying

[tiny scroll]

imo getting hit shouldnt interupt gathering

[devout rune]

Not being able to opt out of pvp. There's a time and place for pvp, but you have to understand that a lot of players want zero chance of pvp. Some people want a relaxing experience, and regardless of losing items or not, some random player attacking you out of the blue will be a quitting moment for many players.

[loud birch]

"you sound like you sit down to pee" - T4GVN

[devout rune]

Newish player
Grind out the primordium for a new class
Sweet lets go level
Level 1 stats in all relevant skills, wearing full copper
Random player defending the gate to the second earliest dungeon, killing my toon twice and other person once

Yes I'm allowed to defend myself, and yes I'm allowed to hold beliefs that I've held consistently. I knew the moment would come that the bad design decision would impact me. I posted this here because its a real issue affecting the game, despite the fact I knew people like you would go full red herring from the validity of the main argument.

[tepid dove]

Random player defending the gate to the second earliest dungeon, killing my toon twice and other person once
Was that Breach that kills you?

[next saffron]

Name of the player? You sure it's not just the 3 npcs guarding the portal?

[devout rune]

Kwaiton- he had multiple accounts he was swapping between all active in front of the sewer.

[next saffron]

If it happens again, someone camping, give me a poke on discord and i'll handle them

[tepid dove]

i have a feeling that Kwaiten is from HoK, except im wrong

[devout rune]

Btw this is what happened when I swapped back to my primary class and gear. Its hopefully the only one I have to get.

I was high elo in League of Legends. Climbed to diamond in FN. I was well known in ESO pvp. I dabbled heavily in GW2 and WoW pvp. I am not some pve andy who's never engaged with pvp.

It's not something I'm interested in engaging with at the moment. And if you've spent time in MMO communities like ESO or GW2 you will hear the groaning the majority of players do when a pvp event happens- because they want the rewards but a large portion of players have no interest in pvp. There is a reason pvp focused mmos fail. PVP is a good thing. But it needs to be optional.

Thankfully I love the game and have thick enough skin to deal with this. I want to support this game. But many, many players will quit the moment they learn about non-optional pvp or experience it first hand.

[next saffron]

He ain't

[tepid dove]

my bad

[devout rune]

I appreciate it Robin, thank you. I'm mostly just trying to encourage the root issue here be solved of non-optional pvp.

[next saffron]

Yeeee, i get it. Just given the system, it can be abused. Most people leave things at one kill and move on, and don't activly camp a spot

[bronze arch]

The topic has been discussed at fair length relatively recently. Camping/griefing is a rare occurrence, luckily.

[next saffron]

Actually he is, a level 25 in my guild

[tepid dove]

:D

[minor crypt]

I did not camp this guy, i killed him once and moved on doing my stuff until either him/his friend started chasing me, which then i killed them again

[blazing blaze]

W Kwaiten

#standyourground

[next saffron]

Ah thanks for shedding a lil light, sounds like a lil skirmish going on lmao

[devout rune]

Untrue. You attacked and killed both myself and Drogeaux once. I came back and you attacked me again.

I then went to the bank and swapped classes and came back and killed you, then entered the dungeon.

I'm muting you and moving on.

[minor crypt]

If thats your narrative, i wish you luck, told you what i did, i hope you can move past this and enjoy the game 🙂

[orchid aurora]

I saw the whole thing btw as I happened to be in the area, it was 1 fight then they killed kwaiten back and it was over. Is this what it means to have "thick skin"?

[devout rune]

You can continue to make this about this singular event but my post was to point to the issue of design here. I don't care about this, I care about the game improving. Your account is wrong and there are others that can verify. Nice ad hominem though.

Pvp should be optional. That is my point.

[next saffron]

Ah well it's over now. Please try to communicate before attacking people.

Or don't. Try to keep it away from lowbie dungeons.

[minor crypt]

Totally valid to have your opinion, though putting my name in your reason to quit and making up things that didnt occur is a differen thing

[orchid aurora]

Well PVP has consequences in this game, and being able to fight for resources is a good thing IMO. If it was optional you would just own a spot for as long as you want. Now if PVP needs harsher consequences thats another topic, but I think what happened doesn't really harmfully impact the games environment out of being salty you died and have to walk back to a dungeon entrance.

[minor crypt]

Yeah i mean i just wanted to have a lil fight, i was 24 against two level 21s, didnt think it would be a big deal

[next saffron]

I come from wow so I sort of get it.

I'm trying to keep things neutral

[minor crypt]

Yeah in a game like this i get to not go around spam killing everyone, but i will take a fight here and there with even odds and move on, pvp is a part in games i really enjoy

[next saffron]

The person dying has nothing to lose other than their time right now. And coming from wow, low-key agree with this, even if I don't do it myself.

The fight for resources part i mean

[blazing blaze]

i fucking loved being able to flag on people who walk into the spot i was grinding in bdo

fighting for resources is great

[blazing blaze]

skinning for the leatherworking daily taking 3+ hours is definitely close to a quit moment

[tiny scroll]

Leather working becomes the easier proffesion the higher you go

Since the mats are unlimited

[tepid dove]

I remember Yi told me the same, long time ago when i mumble in global about skinning / leatherworking.
Now im close to 40 leatherworking and can say, its still worse than most of professions, especially compare to blacksmithing, tailoring and woodworking.
I spending few hours daily for leatherworking task.

[next saffron]

What takes you hours to do exactly?

[tepid dove]

Collecting scraps
you need at least 25.2 minutes just to skin mobs, if all of them give 3 scraps, and thats not always the case

[next saffron]

the Average needs to be dropped down yeah

To collect 756 scraps, at 20 seconds per monster (and skinning every one):

Worst case (1 scrap/monster): ~4h 12min

Average case (2 scraps/monster): ~2h 6min

Best case (3 scraps/monster): ~1h 24min

Don't take the math as 100% correct, but close-ish

[tepid dove]

I think even 2 scraps -> leather could fix it

possibly

[next saffron]

if i remember correctly, chisme said (call me out if it's wrong) that they want kill time to be around 10-15 second ish, if all classes are balanced around it, things are way shorter

Final Breakdown (at 10s per kill):
Worst case (1 scrap per mob): 2h 6min

Average case (2 scraps): 1h 3min

Best case (3 scraps): 42 minutes

I wonder how long tailoring task takes now

[jovial magnet]

ages

if we look at the interactive map, there are in total 12 mysticbloom and 14 duskthorn spawn clusters in the whole map, incl WL. On average let's say there are 2 nodes per so that's 52 nodes. At a consistent 9 per node gathering rate, which you wont get that unless you are 40 herbalism, you'll get 468. You need 630 for a task. Going through the whole map (minus Ardholm side) will take you a good hour, and i have experience with this cos ive done such runs for other resources (even ones where i went to WL as well).

So you spend an hour of running around from node to node, and in the best possible case it's not enough for one task either. Keep in mind that you'll receive less since RNG if you are below 40 Herb, and that other people might have grabbed the nodes so then the number will go down further

having levelled LW from 0 to 40, as it was my first 40 crafting profession as well, with skinning being first 40 gathering i had, now 41, i do not ever remember spending more than 1h30-2h on gathering for a task. And at tiers beyond 4-5, the same monsters i was looking to skin were guarding other resources, ore, wood or herbs.

[blazing blaze]

I’ve spent a minimum of 3 hours everyday collecting scraps for the leather working daily. Mining takes me ~30 minutes

Sure mining is bugged, but doing dailies is usually a fairly quick task in an mmo and should be closer to 30-60 minutes each

[jagged thicket]

We expect this will drastically change when the trading post is rolled out but plan to tweak afterward if things are still too over-indexed

[next saffron]

If you are decent at the game(class and dmg wise), it takes around the time you spoke of

Or well, dmg wise

And high skinning too for 3 scraps

more or less, probably needs a lil tweak

[mortal gazelle]

After experiencing post Vamp and BT nerf pvp. Its time for class and pvp balancing if pvp is to be kept in the open world. 😐

[loud birch]

https://tenor.com/view/lollipop-elle-shy-anofa-ace-family-gif-22164597

[next saffron]

Quit Moment – Warden Imbue & Damage Number Clarity

This might seem small, but it’s actually made me want to log out.

The new Warden imbue has completely thrown off the feel of combat for me. I’m swinging a scythe, and every hit now shows two separate numbers, one for physical and one for nature, for what should be a single, satisfying attack. It doesn’t feel impactful anymore, just cluttered.

Now I’m watching red and green numbers pop up constantly for basic attacks. It feels like I’m staring at a damage spreadsheet mid-fight. The clarity is gone, and it makes everything visually messy.

This isn’t just a Warden issue either. Any class with an imbue ends up with the same kind of visual noise. It breaks immersion and makes combat feel bloated and awkward.

Honestly, this one change has completely killed my desire to log back in.

[orchid aurora]

Clarity for damage types is important but there could be an option to condense the attack into 1 number. I know other games have this feature.

[tiny scroll]

I think this is important, but it also seems you are feeling burnout and need a break. When you have such a small reason why you dont wana log in anymore take a break. This is not to invalidate your point but just something i see

[next saffron]

You are not wrong. Played the game for quite some time now. I'm going to your advice and take a break.

It's just that gear progression should be clear. Get better gear, more stats, better weapons and it should be displayed via numbers. But when it's just a spree of number farts, the whole feeling of that gets thrown out of the window. In my opinion.

[tiny scroll]

I agree, just take some time and come back whit passion. This is coming from someone who has done the same

[jagged thicket]

It’s definitely not ideal - but paired with coatings the multiple layers of conversion would cause a recursive loop and have the capability to crash the server

The goal is to move back to full conversion, it’ll just take some problem solving around the oil interaction

We’re working hard to improve the game and keep adding content for all levels, it’s definitely okay to take a break for a bit - hopefully thousands more hours await when you return

[loud birch]

https://tenor.com/view/side-eye-suspicious-puppet-gif-2729624127692369191

https://tenor.com/view/homer-simpson-im-gone-bush-the-simpsons-gif-3437649

[pearl quartz]

All i hear is more mammys

[next saffron]

https://tenor.com/view/you-did-this-saturday-night-live-thats-your-fault-you-made-this-its-you-who-did-this-gif-20431295

[loud birch]

i found* this

i'm a hero

https://tenor.com/view/sweats-gif-25346666

[jovial magnet]

will the revert to full conversion be only for duskbow/warden or anyone with similar imbue too? Like shadowblade for example, because arent technically my autos right now are affected by piercing resist? Which might be minor but im basically fighting against 2 resists

[pearl quartz]

I am really confused is this an issue with the bubble display, or are the backend damage calculations actually affected?

[loud birch]

well realistically with that logic, if you fight something with lets say shadow res, you'd be doing more dmg now(slightly) because part of your damage wouldn't be resisted

if you fight something with both 30% pierce and 30% shadow, each output of damage will only take 30% reduction anyway

separate instances of damage with their own resist

[jovial magnet]

i rather take all shadow for the sake of class fantasy, being called "shadowblade" but still having phys damage on my aas is kinda bleh. And the number puke has always been an issue on this class, but the recent joining of numbers made things a bit more clear cos till now i legit didnt know what button did how much damage when things like Lurking Strike spat out 8 different numbers at the same time, most of which overlapped each other

[loud birch]

i think these are great things for general discussion i just don't think they are solid Quit Moments

[jagged thicket]

Same formula as before, just the damage is now split between the physical component from your auto attack and the magical component from the imbue

We didn’t consider making everything full conversion as a bit of variety has been normal and not much of an issue

One idea that comes to mind is to have some items that do nature/shadow based auto attacks

this is part of the legendary design. Each element will have damage type weapons, so the pure numbers w no split phys/magic - I believe fire, frost, and nature/spirit are ready so it could be fairly soon

[jovial magnet]

it makes sense with these in mind then yeah

[next saffron]

For me it is. One melee swing shouldn't show 700+400.

It should show 1.1k

[jagged thicket]

I think it’s quick to add a client side toggle to combine dmg numbers

Drawback is they’d all be the same color, like yellow perhaps

Actually I think there’s a toggle for white dmg numbers atm but they’d still be split

[next saffron]

Like I'm fine if a swing shows auto attack dmg>trinket dmg proc>trinket dmg proc. But having the auto's being split just makes it confusing

[pearl quartz]

Could create a text log of damage by type on the client. I know some games have that as a chat window. This way people can customize the numbers above their heads to look and feel good, but could also dig into the details if they want by reviewing the text log.

[jagged thicket]

Combat log definitely planned for sure, just needs some architecting for splitting and formatting the data

As for combining damage numbers I think that can be done in about 5 min

Will toss that in

[jagged thicket]

doin this for now, hooking into White Damage Numbers setting

[keen lodge]

Quit moment: playing with euroblade has me in shambles.

[jagged thicket]

[brittle raven]

[loud birch]

honestly same

XD

[jagged thicket]

bump

[orchid aurora]

DAILIES

I didn't log in for over a week cuz its all dailies 😵‍💫 I'll hop on for a cheeky dungeon run with the boys and then the daily xp is on CD

[jagged thicket]

dungeon, gathering, both?

[orchid aurora]

Both

[jagged thicket]

we could make the dungeon ones spammable instead of 12h CD but we'd have to bring down the rewards to match

[orchid aurora]

I got my task board, gathering dailies, dungeon daily check list

These all take time to do repetitive things that offer too much xp

Id rather just play my way and not feel inefficient

[jagged thicket]

Really we don't want them to feel like actual dailies, more like farming OSRS 8h tree rotations

[orchid aurora]

Yeah theres way too many time gated things. Dailyscape was a big concern with farming and birdhouses but thata basically it so you kind of bite the bullet and do them til you dont need to

[jagged thicket]

If we made dungeon quests repeatable, we'd probably want to bring down rewards by 3-6x or so, but it could be done

this would feel more like a bonus for doing the run - kinda feels like a mobile MMO in that case to me

but if it feels like it's MoP dailies thats bad

[orchid aurora]

I think for the task board you maybe can just do 1 profession a day or something. Its too good not to do but it takes so much time

[jagged thicket]

Well the other element here is there is no actual trade economy yet

So tasks will take a big backseat when you can buy a ton of items and just pump XP

[orchid aurora]

Yes its exactly like mop dailies its funny you say that because I was just joking with euro and kwaiten that I won't play first tier of mop cuz daily grind was crazy but then here I am on ethyrial lmao

[jagged thicket]

[orchid aurora]

Idk spammable dungeons if too efficient also feel bad and idk how everyone feels about that. Just more options without big bonuses tied to them on timers would be nice

If I wanna do a dungeon or monster hunt or grind a profession I should just be able to log on and do that and not feel like im playing wrong

[jagged thicket]

My off the cuff list of strategies is:

• Vanilla-like - no dailies, no dungeon/wboss quest rewards (primordium, xp book, etc), just get the xp/drops for the run
• Current - 8h CD w fairly juicy rewards
• no CD w/ Rewards - 3-6x less units but can spam whatever you want and get rewarded at the end
• ? another strat i havent thought of yet

[orchid aurora]

im very bias and in favor of a vanilla/osrs like system where you log in and do what you want to make progress in but I know some people don't like open ended "what should I be doing" systems or feeling like the grind is too slow, those bumps of juicy XP are nice

but currently its just too many ways to get those bumps and outside of that XP it feels bad

[jagged thicket]

I lean highly vanilla myself, but we did see the value in incentivizing participation with the repeatable quests

primordium, book, bonus xp, a bit of currency is basically a big attractor to encourage more group play, which leads to more fun/connections

I do feel the daily thing though, the goal was always to avoid the label of having dailies

[brittle raven]

I think this is a good reason why Mama Bear should have slightly increased xp gains, 3.3k is just too little imo even for 30-33

[jagged thicket]

What prevents this feeling in OSRS for example - might be a good parallel bc there are similar systems

OSRS bosses typically give very low/little XP and are focused on drops

high xp is usually low gold/high intensity

med xp is usually low gold/low intensity or so

maybe scurrius gives juicy xp tho let me check

[orchid aurora]

Its not "juicy" but it is low level approachable

with horizontal rewards to make grinding scurrius more efficient

[orchid aurora]

and I agree with all this

[jagged thicket]

if manabear xp is a bit low we can take a look at it, it's basically intro to bossing so we want it to be super fun and rewarding

[orchid aurora]

if mamabear is to learn bossing and unique drops it doesn't need to be crazy XP, I think scurrius is a good parallel

[jagged thicket]

If i put my minmax hat on for combat/general progression, I would basically be incentivized to run all dungeons to max my primo + book gain + xp + vendorable drops right now

I wouldn't want to grind normally bc world tour is bis

is that fair to say?

[orchid aurora]

absolutely

[jagged thicket]

hmm kk

[orchid aurora]

and on the profession side of things

[orchid aurora]

its tackle your taskboard and gathering dailies

[jagged thicket]

we need to get this thing in game

We basically need to gather the data around xp/hr for various methods and then make sure they are tuned so it doesn't feel like you're describing

[brittle raven]

And if not doing that, at the very least doing all dungeons within level range > world bosses & open world dungeon taskboards

[jagged thicket]

we want to design it so you should be able to get better xp/hr doing high intensity normal stuff

however - incentivzing running all of the dungeons with the boys is actually a pretty desirable result too - if we had 2k pop we might be seeing a ton of LFG spam

[brittle raven]

So for me at lvl 36 this would be loe, rag, drath, deadlands at the moment if it was purely for daily boosts

rift and dole don't seem to have dailies yet but they would be added in obviously

[jagged thicket]

dole i think we need to add to the taskboard

rift should be working but if it isn't lmk

[brittle raven]

yeah rift doesn't have a daily I can double check later as well, got a popup completion on my first clear but none after that

[jagged thicket]

but to break this down a bit more:

say we had like 2-3 more options for dungeons/content in this range

would you now feel forced to run all of them, or would you pick one or two to run instead?

[orchid aurora]

encouraging dungeons, at least 1 a day is not an issue. see wrath LFD daily reward bonus

World tour is when I wanna gun in mouth

[jagged thicket]

🤣 fair

[orchid aurora]

My incentive to run dungeons should be juicy loot and perhaps something sellable on the market when that comes

[jagged thicket]

so basically:

1 dungeon task > unlimited dungeon tasks within the 8h CD?

this would bottleneck the primordium/book/etc gains and potentially reduce LFG quantity, but it would also help prevent fomo

the other option is just to make sure that there are methods that are more efficient than dungeon spam, which should be fairly easy to do since a normal group needs extra time to form up, meet at the instance, etc

[orchid aurora]

You could just increase primordium gain per boss kill so people who don't need loot have more of a reason to tag along a dungeon run for people doing their daily/grinding their bis

and attach more rewards to primordium like mounts/cosmetics/pets

[jagged thicket]

def plan to do this

a lot of the systems are setup to scale out the rewards, just focusing more on foundation atm so it'll accelerate when that's complete

[fading hazel]

I think this is because of MH books setting a precedent. Anything you do now is going to need to feel bonus. The entire system of books for dungeons that curly is talking about was born because MH was too good and led to the same situation. You either do MH, or do it old school but highly gimp your progression. Leaving feelings of well, i should be doing what im doing but MH bonus on top.

Isnt that literally the predicate of MH. Kill mobs but get a bonus?

By that same definition, MH is mobile gamey

[rare parcel]

I must be a minority in this, but I always say MH is a noob trap.

[fading hazel]

Conversely,

Put an 8h CD on monster hunter and see how that goes down.

In before it goes down like hot sick.

Same feeling toward being limited in dungeons and taskboards

[rare parcel]

With "no dailies", would that mean no tasks? Then people craft 100s of iron daggers to level smithing, like Skyrim?
Definitely like the no cooldowns, however the tasks should randomize what you need to turn in and also require you to craft it, not already own it/bought it for turn in.

[jagged thicket]

if we removed the CD on the craft/dungeon tasks, we'd be looking at reducing the XP pretty drastically on those.

Right now you craft and get 100 xp, you turn in and get 100xp

with no CD we'd prob look at craft 100xp, turn in for 20xp or so

but yeah you could just chain turn in under this system, losing gold in favor of a bit more XP

likely this will all change though when you can buy bulk mats and power craft

[fading hazel]

Yeah naturally. Cant get around having to balance it.

It comes down to agency tho.

Players will accept less xp (they wont know any different), but theyll feel like they can do what they want instead of being gated

Also, given your definition. Is MH not mobile game? I think thats really important to identify eh.

Because if you dont want the game to feel mobile gamey. And are using that as reason to not allow infinite tasks. I truly dont understand how MH isnt exactly this.

[rare parcel]

I dont think dungeons are useful as the min/max exp grind. Unless you change how dungeons work

I was also going to mention. Dailies are efficient, but time gated. So do you want players to feel like that? By removing dailies then you remove the feeling of being inefficient. With no cd "dailies", you give a direction on how to stay focused on efficiency

[fading hazel]

Like i said. Bang a cd on MH and see the reaction.

[rare parcel]

If the mobs are always 1-4 levels higher than you, i believe the rewards should scale with difficulty

[jagged thicket]

Essentially the time gate serves as a sort of rested XP mechanic

Those with less time can take advantage of a turn-in which rewards some additional xp/time

Those who want to keep pushing will just do whatever they please, acquire gold, and then power-craft

Dungeon tours aren't maximally efficient for XP due to setup time

Gathering tasks, well, morgan went ham on the logic for those, so they will have to remain as-is. But we can add other methods such as minigames, gatherable monsters that don't give many resources, etc

I'm inclined to say the CD is actually more beneficial than a spammable, low xp reward system based on 2 data points:

1. New World Tasks
2. Ethyrial Launch Tasks

Spamming task loop forces a kind of infinite, pre-determined flow to gathering efficiency, where you now always have to follow that path.

CD tasks give you a one-time participation with a window to design your own flow

I'd also add, those dwarves only need new gear every so often, they don't have enough gold to pay for infinite tasks

[fading hazel]

Id argue no matter what system, there is a pre determined flow.

All timers do is gate that flow. A way to put it would be "allowing you to design your own window", but that doesnt seem intellectually genuine.

As truly allowing you to design your own flow, is actually the first system. Where there are zero restrictions.

[rare parcel]

Remove the gold!

[fading hazel]

I still want to know if you think MH is mobile gamey by your own definition Ry

I cant see how it isnt. But im curious.

[jagged thicket]

OSRS is a mobile game, so yeah MH would be mobile gamey

[fading hazel]

Id swap "would be", with is. Given it isnt a future thing but current.

Given it is, having the same feeling for dungeon and boards wouldnt be all together that bad if another system gives the same feeling

[jagged thicket]

Sure, you can describe it that way

[rare parcel]

• Your own flow will always be less than that one-time window. Great for people who only do dailies and then log off, otherwise not good.
• pre-determined flow will always be "gamed" into what is min/max. With this system you can control what that should be and with control comes balance.

Spamming task loop forces a kind of infinite, pre-determined flow to gathering efficiency, where you now always have to follow that path.

CD tasks give you a one-time participation with a window to design your own flow

[fading hazel]

I can 🙂 and dont know how else you would given the definition

I honestly think its all a bit red herring, and the core issue is MH book rewards.

All the other subsequent systems are using those rewards as their basis for balance and implementation. And will always be compared to.
This creates the effect of all subsequent systems needing to have parity to the original.

Id ask why the books were introduced in the first place, and whatever answer comes about, then try and address that at a core system level in the back end, rather than something the player has to choose to interact with

[rare parcel]

MH books and primordium are a participation reward, so all levels are incentivized to do them? (Dungeons)

[fading hazel]

I would say they were a means to address imbalance in xp acquisition, and have slipped in under the guise of participation.

[rare parcel]

Books are a trap!

Could be a reward for a party leader who "sherpas" low levels in a dungeon

[next saffron]

Dungeons generally give less overall. When it comes to skills, whether it’s magic or melee/ranged — and armor types like light, medium, or heavy, doing dungeons usually rewards less than doing a Monster Hunter.

People who enjoy the social aspects of an MMO sort of get gimped with the cooldown being there. Let people suffer the grind together.

Being able to spam dungeons and get books that way would at least make them a somewhat viable option. Right now, they just don’t compete.

[merry sand]

Yup. I've been doing a ton of manabear/LoE/Rift from early 30s, currently 37.5 and my magic/light just barely hit lvl 35. It's going to take a long time to get them caught up.

[fading hazel]

What are the instances it does give more than MH? Is it something that's only noticeable at end game?

[next saffron]

Probably none? Think early-ish dungeons feel like they give more, but once you get yourself a 100% speed mount, monster hunter is just better in most cases.

[fading hazel]

Cool, that's good to know. I've purposely avoided MH to see what gains are like throught the levelling experience so I can provide feedback on it from that perspective. I believe a good game experience shouldn't shoehorn people into feeling like they NEED to do something to maintain parity with their peers. Until end game systems at least.

Obviously there will be a race to the bottom somewhere, but to that end...

If the answer is definitively none, after investigation, hopefully we see some lever pulling to try and bring things to parity, or even push it further the other way. I believe people who take the time to organise and set up a group, and then successfully execute something in that scenario should be rewarded greater than somebody who can just get up and go solo.

[brittle raven]

confirmed rift daily not working earlier

[jagged thicket]

are you guys still near entrance?

[brittle raven]

i’m not at my pc right now but i think my character is near there at least unless it got logged off

[plain tide]

https://tenor.com/view/staring-meme-bald-guy-staring-gif-16652283412331227052

this shit is the worst fuck ass grind in the game

4363 and nuthin

[mild berry]

My only quit moment so far was having finished SI and being SUPER stoked, love exploring the islands, the secrets, the quests. And then I hit Main and while there are some quests and maybe some secrets, the feeling of “oh this is transitioning from a fun game about exploring and mysterious quests” to a game that was About to ask me to just grind a lot. Part of this could just be that Main is huge so everything is naturally more spread out.

Obviously this is just a content issue, right? SI is front loaded with cool shit. It’s gonna take a lot of time to fill Main with lots
Of cool shit. But that was so far my only moment I considered quitting, when I felt like I was about to spend most my time grinding and I’d be lucky to find a mystery to sniff after

As an old Tibia player, that game
Had infinite vertical progression, but it was never leveling that kept me around. It was the exploration and mysteries and danger. (PS I think this game needs a greater sense of danger. Dying is only a minor nuisance)

[brazen rose]

There is quite a lot of game to do in the mainland. But if you're looking for quests specifically, yes that's a content issue.

Mainland is HUGE!

[mild berry]

Yea, tbh I’m still trying to level to a point I feel like I can get around better. Then ima start exploring, and really hunting
For stuff. The map really is huge

I’m thinking back on the SI quest. Where you had to make
A permanent choice to loot a
Certain item from
The well, have good enough fishing and click a specific item in a dungeon, and then find 2 more spots in the map to investigate, all to get an epic
Item. It was really awesome. That kind of secret quest is what I fuckin live for

[brazen rose]

Well if you find Sporehaven, lmk!

[tiny scroll]

Yeah its ass

[fading hazel]

Had a bit of a think on your points here.

I honestly think doing open alpha dev means that the very essence of secretive gameplay is impossible.

It comes down to trying to balance developing the game and having secrets in it and those secrets being accessable, and also having them actually remain secrets for when the game is released.

When the entire thing is being done live, it means the knowledge and mystery for release will already be wiki'd up, and so people will just be following a guide. Which is completely anti-thetical to a mysterious world full of intrigue and secrets waiting to be discovered.

[brazen rose]

Yeah this this very true. And it also remarkable how fast secrets are uncovered. I say Sporehaven, but people figured it out in a day

[fading hazel]

Yeah I really feel for you in this regard. You're kinda fucked if you do, fucked if you don't. It's tough

There are a lot of pros and cons to both sides. But a big con pro is a test server and a bunch of NDAs 😄

[vital ridge]

MH Book rewards definitely made me stop looking at the world and focus on that XP rate. Before I knew about the xp gains I was strictly farming in areas where I could grind out a gathering skill that I would be working on.

MH still has some of those spots but it seems like around the level 30-35 mark you start to realy fall behind. You either fall behind in your armor/weapon skills or gathering. Some people might not care about gathering though and in that situation they just completely abandon big portions of the game for that efficiency and may never see content that's made to be found.

[tiny scroll]

Mh books really Arnt efficiënt anymore, only 40+ for the combat xp

Compared to all other categories combat xp is way higher

Below 40 mh is pretty useless

[jagged thicket]

bump

[vital ridge]

Its efficient for leveling armor you aren't actively wearing.

Ex: Its faster to kill stuff in light armor as infuser but my minions scale off of Con and heavy armor has the best numbers for that. So the only way I can keep up is by using those books. Its gotten to the point my heavy armor is ahead of my light armor even though I used light more.

[merry sand]

This probably is just a "content" problem but the grind right now is really linear. For example around the late 20s:

Seething Brood (grind until 30) -> LoE/Bear (Grind until 35) -> Rift (grind until 38) -> DLP (Grind forever).

MH tasks and OW in general are pretty unrewarding and much slower than grouping. This is good as it pushes you into groups but bad in that that's all that feels valuable to do, all other content pales in comparison in this level range.

This also extends to skilling. You need to grind whatever tier you're on extensively and the best way usually on specific thing. For example when I was doing 30-35 Leatherworking I had to sit at Black Drakes for 10s of hours since they were way easier to do than Trolls or Ebonshades.

Due to how linear the grind feels, especially during the longer levels, burn-out comes on quickly for me.

Also - when combat skills start lagging behind it's awful too. I'm currently level 38, my light armor and magic are 36.5. I'm doing DLP in base rift gear and will be for likely weeks before those two skills get to 38. It feels pretty bad to be behind the curve on where you should be content/gear wise.

[vital ridge]

How many days played does your account have? Because to me its wild youre already at 38 in some skills and 36.5 in the others. I have around 20 days logged in my character with professions in the mid 30s range but for combat stats im around 36 for everything. But unlike you ive been almost exclusively doing solo content.

Makes it feel worst that i can be so behind in combat playing the game in the crafting prof type of way I like to do

Maybe its just infuser is fairly bad at actually getting xp

[merry sand]

I think you and I likely play in a very similar way. I prefer solo content and my professions are all around the 34-38 mark.

I've got 24d13h on my main character. To clarify though - I'm level 38.5 but all my combat skills are similar to yours; 36.5 are the highest. Nearly 2 full levels behind my character level.

[brazen rose]

map system will add a bit more variability

but yeah

quests/more bosses

side stuff

minigames

[jagged thicket]

bump

[gloomy pike]

My quit moment happened today.

1. Found out the "necessary" end game items are set-up the same shite way manabear is. IE: being forced to play a class that has from start used pots/bandaids. Losing the primary skills of any discipline I have gotten to a viable point.
   Played as healer disciplines to help guild and friends with MH and in dungeons, etc only to find out end game content is solo?!
   And honestly, just outright tired of grinding LoE / Dol /ER. I find myself going in to help, but falling asleep because I'm so bored.

[tepid dove]

Played as healer disciplines to help guild and friends with MH and in dungeons, etc only to find out end game content is solo?!
Solo for weapons and party for armor and trinkets

[gloomy pike]

Did I not understand or did I miss something? Party where/what?

[tepid dove]

this one dungeon for best armor and trinkets (depends on class) in game

[gloomy pike]

Not 40 - and the current grind = sleepytime. [Druid / Cultist highest disciplines currently] . I am occupying myself by opening map areas, killing mobs from MD and hoping to get a mount drop (getting boring as well).

[tepid dove]

just in case, i dont trying to invalidate your point and totally understand, especially that healers meh for dlp grind
just want to make sure you know there is party content on 40 lvl and healers very very valuable there

but most of the bis items you doing solo

[plain tide]

priest is the only healer you should solo with, others are dreadful

[brazen rose]

one part of the endgame content is solo

or small groups

[gloomy pike]

OH no way. Druid is almost immortal. And if you know how to use Cultist same. Druid - for multiple mobs. Cultist for solo - harder to kill mobs.

[plain tide]

sure, just too slow

priest do respectable dmg, more than some dps classes

[gloomy pike]

Thank you all for the clarifications

[hazy shale]

NGL my biggest quit moment was when i bought a new PC and the FOW recovered my entire map... i had spent HOURS running around baren land to uncover and now whenever i log in to check updates not being able to see my map demotivates me to even want to stay logged on... sounds kinda dumb.. but.. idk lol it just sucks, also would love to see better detailed map markers, for listing POI's etc.

[rare parcel]

Died again in hardcore. No diminishing returns had me essentially stun locked. Bandages never activated likely due to stun, but I think actually due to movement. Died for the same reasons I have died before..using a new relic trying to level it up. It does not feel good to have to play catchup and actively work against yourself because your combat level is now outscaling your other combat skills. Very detrimental in hardcore. The more I restart the more I realize that I do not like any of these classes. I have enjoyed 1 class out of the 15 I have played.

[fading hazel]

Funny that eh. They are all missing 5 skills or so at least imo. But i think the biggest thing is how prescribed the rotations are.

An mmo without a resurrection is a bit of a miss

[plain tide]

login
do BOCs with the boys
300 pastules outside cause no one can turn in gathering quests
go inside
death dance infinite bug
all die, no respawns until restart game and wait 3 minutes bug, happens multiple times
bug has been there for almost a month
everyone is on mounts in combat bug?
UI resets every time on login
took an hour to do a normally 10-minute dungeon
wanna stay logged out, cause what is this

I know you are cooking something on the backend, but right now, it's the worst it has been all this year. With a sincere love for the game, I hope you guys get this somewhat stable.

gonna go touch grass until you do

[brazen rose]

haha this is awesome and makes so much sense

[jagged thicket]

What is the death dance infinite bug?

We’ll get these cleaned up

[pearl quartz]

First boss that does the death dance will sometimes never stop doing it until it resets. The Wraith I think is the name.

[jagged thicket]

when did this start happening?

wasn't aware of this one - I must have missed it

any other info you can share about it?

[pearl quartz]

Not sure how long it has been there. It is uncommon. I remember it happening a lot over a month ago when I was doing a lot more BOC. Once the Wraith gets ready to the blood dance or whatever the move is called, it sometimes never stops and keeps sending you all around the room and chunking everyone's health down until everyone dies and it resets. I remember healing through it for a very long time.

[plain tide]

You should make permanent post of known issues, so we can see what bugs you are aware of, and which you haven't written down. A lot issues get reported multiple times, and some doesnt get reported. Some get fixed immediately, some stay for months. Prop something like the updates channel, where only you write what you are aware of.

[pearl quartz]

I seem to remember killing this boss when it was doing the infinite blood dance before and we were still taking damage after it was dead so we all just stood there and died so we could move on. Maybe @plain tide can confirm that or maybe im remembering wrong.

[plain tide]

Yeah its been there for months

Blood dance doesnt break on dmg, either you out dmg him and then die or you just wipe and die. Happens 1/5 times

[fading hazel]

@jagged thicket @brazen rose The lore is really really all over the place since SI got reworked by that English guy. None of the quests really even make sense because he took away the fundamental meaning to all of them being toward William. Sternbrand is a shell of his former self. An absolute shell.

I recently put up some screenshots of gameplay explicitly stating the opposite of this screenshot. Both screenshots can be found during gameplay in SI.

It's a minor one, but until the environment is grounded in a story that's full of wonder and amazement, and that story is brought to life through immersion, I think the game will fall short and people will continue to quit.

The starter zone, having a contradiction so heavily inbuilt needs attention. There's no "soul" or "connection" to any of it. It gets joked about like har har Zorg's on about SI and Irumesa again, but it is based upon stuff found IN the game, not just upon some ideal notion of what the lore SHOULD be.

[lusty warren]

now im not saying the og writing was perfect..

we had a lot of gems back then

we need to bring back the ruffian. "you did a big mistake coming here" was amazing engrish considering it was being said by a idiot bandit

but stuff like " all wood is good wood depening on what you need wood for so no wood and all wood is greater".. give me back my brain cells

[jagged thicket]

bump

[lusty warren]

getting to edrivine and nothing points you to stash

[solid osprey]

This isn't fun, nor rewarding. It's boring, and definitely a "want to quit" moment. DLP isn't any better. the only way to advance at this point involves hours of grinding and then just plain ol RNG luck (or lack there of). At least with the motes, there is a slow, and obvious progression to the total you need. But stat necklace, chromatic ring and prisms? Just hours of blind luck grinding.

[fading hazel]

Did you play wow and grind for savage glad chain? Not dismissing your point, just curious what you consider a "reasonable grind"

[vital ridge]

Savage glad was like 300 runs though, sure it requires either a great warrior duo with a diamond heal set swap or a group of 3 but it was almost always under 300 runs(still it did require an insane amount of time if you got unlucky especially considering the path to get down there in the first place)

[fading hazel]

One fateful day we had two drop in a row. And the 2nd one got disenchanted.

Many many sad pants in the guild that day.

I mustve done that farm over 1000 times between myself and others. Eaaasy

[jovial magnet]

it used to be even worse pre-sundering of the hydras. It was a horrible experience for me of nothing for 4722 (i legit have it noted down) kills, and got an INT one at 4723 (i wanted DEX). I'd say it's better now but still agree with your point. I timed my grind for chromatic ring and it was 3 days of 10-ish hours every day. 30 hours grinding for something like that isnt horrible for me per se, i mean i play BDO so duh. But i think the issue is from how there is no safety net. It was suggested for prisms, too, to have a pity system. BDO has this for a lot of its super rare chase items that are big QoL for your account.

The issue would be alleviated by also population, too. Because then you'd be able to outright buy the stuff but i think that's also a double-edged argument because: supply goes up sure, but demand goes up too AND the spots arent big enough either to allow many people to grind.

[merry sand]

As a fellow BDO player, i'm curious about the BDO comparison.

If we talk about Treasure items things like the compass, merchant ring, map, and telescope don't have pities. The infinite pots/horses do.

For gear, lets use Hydra necks for example. I got my first one at ~3500 kills and it took about 25 hours of grinding. That's the current BiS neck. BDO by comparison (lets say an VIII -> IX Kara) you need 9.6 attempts at 9b per click. If you make 2b per hour so you need ~45 hours of grinding for that one upgrade. So EoY I had way less time invested for arguably a better item.

So... i guess the question is, is the problem in your eyes that EoY doesn't have a pity system or is it the grind in general? Cause BDO has a much longer grind for much smaller gains, gear wise.

As an aside, I really do love pity systems in games. It helps players set goals and limits a grind so someone doesn't get screwed... I think EoY would benefit from them too

[brazen rose]

This might be a hot take, but because items are all tradeable on the trading post, isn't price of a particular item on the trading post a soft-pity system?

The reason why I say this is unless you're ironman, we intend to design this game so that you don't grind for each piece of gear. If I had to do that in WoW, i'd peel my eyeballs out

[merry sand]

Definitely. I think a lot of the pain points people bring up are a direct result of not having options outside of grinding them.

I do think there's something to be said for pity systems though. Say a Hydra neck should take 2k kills. If a pity system roughly eases that to 4k kills (double average), people can at least say "My grind is at worst, going to take X hours" which helps give light at the end of the tunnel instead of grinding for who knows how long. That information is massive for the mental

[brazen rose]

The issue with pity systems is that the game is then solved after a certain number of hours.

I mean some people consider that an issue and some people don't lol

[jovial magnet]

i was mostly using infinite pots as an example yeah, i mean ive only been playing for a few months so my knowledge about everything isnt full complete perhaps anyway. Nah, the issue for me is the lack of pity which essentially turns it into a slot machine. You could say BDO is just as much a slot machine cos taps are.

Let me paint a picture from what i am in BDO. Im at a point where i can grind in Elvia to get pieces for cups for my accessories, right. I can do red orcs, i can do swap fogans. All have pieces i essentially need, and all are in my power level. Besides crafting the cups myself, i can go and buy from CM (even though last night i checked, there were no cups on CM aside from the necklace one), but suppose we do. So, by doing my grind there, orc/fogans/whatever, im also at the current best spot for silver for my power (to my knowledge at least). Thus, it feels like a double whammy of, im both making silver, and actually working towards the cups. This might very well end up being that i craft some and then buy some with the silver i make considering it's 4-5b per cup too (again, aside from necklace).

Comparatively, when i was doing my Hydra grind (keep in mind i had an even worse version of it originally where it was RNG of getting drop and then RNG of getting what you want), what am i getting exactly? Money is utterly garbage, there are 1000 times better ways to make money which is so much more braindead (looking at trade packs). You could say im getting potion mats, which sure but if you arent a DEX user then tough luck. I think the drop on those mats makes the usage of those potions unsustainable almost (imo) but thats besides the point. Eventually i got all the necks after the sundering, god bless they got separated.

[brazen rose]

There WILL be people who just zug hydras until the fangs drop, and they will get a good amount of money for that

Some people really enjoy grinding.

Like me!

[jovial magnet]

i mean i did zug hydras after the fact as well to get every piece i need myself AND Robin too in fact

going and spamming DLP was a better money maker

by like a couple times

would TP and a bigger population solve the issue? Yeah, but i think if the issue right now persists and if it's an issue for a vast amount of people, then people wont stay and then there wont be anyone selling in TP so it wont work out at all

these are obviously my own opinions, and anyone is free to disagree

[jagged thicket]

quick Q on the BDO grind - in terms of the progression curve, where is fogan/orcs atm?

when I played I got to this gear, where the main farm was uh those blackstar dudes, this was right before the forest area was released in korea and was the 2nd best grind behind that underwater place, i think gyfin it was called

oh yea it was star's end

looks like they added quite a bit of new stuff since then

https://garmoth.com/grind-tracker/best-grind-spots

this one is orcs?

essentially, you have this much progression ahead if this is all current to NA/EU

[jovial magnet]

yeah red orcs are like start to middle of mid game i think

[jagged thicket]

ok thats helpful info yea

how much /played roughly to get to that point so far just out of curiosity?

[jovial magnet]

like that's where im at, though they changed the AP caps a bit so 295 doesnt mean what it used to and you have to look at your total i think, buffs and all

[jovial magnet]

lemme think/see

[jagged thicket]

i do like the blackstar items, they are badass looking imo

[jovial magnet]

they added a level above that you mash two blackstars together, and it becomes sovereign which is the current BiS rn

that's what i got for my awakening wep

[jagged thicket]

thats dope

they know how to keep funneling progression thru the old items

just smash em together!! 🤣

[jovial magnet]

okay, so checking back some DMs with Robin cos i had a meltdown over the original class i played and then i quit that to make this one

i made this character around like end of July

[jagged thicket]

whatd u play first?

[jovial magnet]

30th 31st

[jagged thicket]

i did ranger at launch -> maehwa most recently

[jovial magnet]

was in season obv, and i stayed in season till like this week~ there were two weeks when i was on vacation which i didnt play last month (unluckily they had drop rate event at the time which wouldve helped if i played) I did the infinite potions, and with all the free shit they throw yeah im where im at now. BUT i had played like 2-3 years ago so i had some silver left over which help. Though i think they are giving out 10b silver for fresh accounts rn too

[jagged thicket]

ur playing kunoichi now it looks like right?

yeah they do the seasonal fomo stuff well too, giga gifts/rewards, that got me back

i do like the heidel ball thing too

[jovial magnet]

so in 2023 it was guardian, i got confused VERY after graduating, quit. Came back did Dark Knight, didnt like it, graduated, made Maehwa cos spears BUT the class is so underpowered that it left a bad taste in my mouth when everyone shittalks it in its own discord. So i looked at my options and playing Maegu rn

[jagged thicket]

lost ark did that bi annual big release event strat too

[jovial magnet]

awakening maegu to be exact

yeah lost ark does some event boost stuff too, like rn from valkyrie release

[jagged thicket]

ah yea i did some guardian at launch, was kinda neat just for fun, but i just leveled it up to try it

dark knight i wanted to like but didnt either

maehwa rip

[jovial magnet]

i wanted to like DK cos elf but

[jagged thicket]

idk maegu ill have to check that out

[jovial magnet]

so im just dual wielding fans rn

[jagged thicket]

🤣

thats dope

some of the class release strats i think can work for ethyrial

like quarterly/bi annual hype cycles

[jovial magnet]

succ is like big aoe caster, awak is melee quicker and purple instead of red

[jagged thicket]

i see

[jovial magnet]

i think that would work yeah, maybe with some events and whatnot to draw people back in

[jagged thicket]

i liked that dual dagger/throwing class that can basically glide

[jovial magnet]

lahn

i thought about lahn when i made my maehwa

[jagged thicket]

Lahn yeah

yeah bdo classes and fx are satisfying

[jovial magnet]

i dont by any means think bdo is perfect btw, but i think there are a few things that could very well work in ethyrial

[jagged thicket]

yeah for sure

[jovial magnet]

cos to admit, ethyrial scratched that itch of grinding and working towards a goal 100%

[jagged thicket]

bdo didnt make me stick for more than like 3-5 month grinds usually

but osrs i could go harder on

i think the RNG upgrading eventually breaks anyone's will

[jovial magnet]

yup, there is 100% a subset of people play BDO on and off cos it burns you out

[jagged thicket]

that's why I prefer RNG drop chances + un-restricted trading post system

[jovial magnet]

a mix between the two

[next saffron]

Veera screams at me when i gamble upgrades in bdo

[jagged thicket]

BDO's system is hyper controlled market-wise

but they also sell costumes so u can whale on the game

so they want those to be specific values to the economy

[jovial magnet]

yup, and bunch of other convenience items like the tent

[merry sand]

I think that's why they added the pity system. You know there's a finishline even if it's a bad one on some items.

[jagged thicket]

i spent a lot on pets at launch

slam your pets together!!

true i guess i didnt play during pity system

[jovial magnet]

i think so too yeah

[jagged thicket]

i did a big grind at launch, then 2020

[jovial magnet]

and having just did DEC Tuvala to PEN BS to get Sov @next saffron knows

as bad as it was and i pitied twice, im glad the pity was there so there was at least a light at the end of the tunnel that i know was arriving

[jagged thicket]

makes sense

lost ark has pity as well and it works

and still gets people to pay $10k for their glow

[merry sand]

TBH though, I think that's why the hydra/dlp grind feels so bad to people. Yes, you can get it on the TP in the future, but for many players today there's no other option but to grind an indefinite amount of time.

I don't know that the TP + player base will totally fix the psychology of that though. I'm sure there's papers on pity systems and game theory but having an arbitrary finishline helps the mental a lot. Especially when something is "required" like DLP/Hydra. I think that's why you see it across BDO now for progression related grinds.

If it's a chase item, like a mount/pet/etc, I can see those not having a pity.

[jovial magnet]

yeah, pretty much, knowing that there is a safety net if you are so unlucky, or an arbitrary finishline like you said 100% helps mentally. At least it does for me. And imo yeah it totally makes sense for required things, for "luxury" it's okay there isnt

[lusty warren]

isnt the saftey net aspect just covered by being able to buy/trade with other players?

and inversely , being able to target grind something takes away from its value, unless the droprate is outside of "reasonable" safety net numbers ?

[lusty warren]

ryan bullied me

and then he shrank my family

[fading hazel]

Not an ultimate quit moment, I'll still be lurking, but in lieu of some of the decisions made by the dev team recently, my desire to play the game has waned massively.

Months ago now, I explicitly implored the team to get some basic rules up, so that they could enforce them, when an infuser afk farming situation occurred. That didn't occur. There are still no terms and conditions to playing Ethyrial that a user accepts before entering the game. Yet the dev team are doling out punishments as if there are terms and conditions, and that people have broken them.

It's incredibly unprofessional, short-sighted, and wreeks of incompetence.

This entire server is full of exploited situations, and if you went through, and dealt with every character that has exploited a bug at some point in time, you'd delete half the population overnight.

I can't reconcile heavy handed bans and removal of progress as punishments for rules that don't exist. And further, if those are unwritten rules, then punish transgressions equally. Although, as mentioned, you'd likely delete long term members of the community.

Dolenaar boosting anybody? Where do you draw the line? That was clear exploiting of a bug

Rhetorical question, and obviously the line is drawn here, but this isn't a new thing, I personally have implored you to set some rules up, to set some caps up so that the game can be reverse engineered and to stop abuse occurring.

The lack of the above, screams lack of competence in around addressing core systems and making sure that there is sufficient grounds to hand out punishment. Quite simply, you can't adjudicate on rules that don't exist. It's basic stuff. It doesn't feel like the team takes itself as a serious mmo entity.

Finally, the very people you are punishing, are the very people who can help make your game the best version of it. To continue to invest time into playing the game when these are the decisions made is something that doesn't sit right.

Until the team actually starts to take the game seriously in these ways, and addresses underlying systems, like terms and conditions, like caps (I've been going on about this for almost 2 years, how do you not decide to look at it until exploits? I just don't understand that), a blind dog could see issues coming without some form of stat cap.

Then it doesn't feel like it actually has a concrete plan behind producing the game and showcasing itself as a professional product. When in the past I have brought up rules, this was the response. #screenshots message .

Unfortunately, the issue with this logic is shown here. #screenshots message

Instead of harking to every other MMO and what their precedents are. Why not carve out what identity Ethyrial will have. That way there is absolutely zero ambiguity.

[jagged thicket]

bump

[tawny oak]

I left after tutorial island, the main city was very confusing, it said go to the dock, there’s 4 or 5 différents docks spread all around. Quest say talk to this person, no idea where to go it’s huge but empty.
Wandered around, couldn’t find enemies, found a field that the quest says go to the corn field and the journal say talk to this NPC.
When I press on the icon to track I have a black map.
I understand the discovery and exploration, but I have a very limited time to play and wandering around for hours trying to figure out where to go is not my idea of fun.

I’ll probably lurk to see developments and see if I come back.

[jagged thicket]

fair points for sure, we need to update the quest after arriving in edrivine rather than sending players back to the docks - it's too confusing and most of the good stuff is right near the teleport

• monster hunter
• thistlebrook quests
• gathering tasks/nodes

thanks for sharing your perspective

[brazen rose]

we could move hawizz to right outside of the leyline portal

[plain tide]

and put a bank there

[pallid brook]

dlp

[jagged thicket]

#general message

this may help

[jagged thicket]

We sell 2 prisms per acct for 8k gold each to emulate having a trading post, so if you want to do other content and buy them just shoot me a message

[pallid brook]

i know about that, i've been reading all the stuff related to it and i thought it was exaggerated. it's not, it's just fyi dlp is a quit moment

[vital ridge]

What if DLP was less a twilight prism random drop and more a kind of Castle Wars system.

Eventually DLP gear SHOULD get outscaled by RNG Astral keys drops.

So what if instead of a rng prism you got Twilight Prism Fragments, and when you collect idk 250 or 1000 (whatever # of hrs you arbitrarily believe players should spend on this content for 1 weapon) then you can trade one in at an npc in that new town your building a short distance east.

This would

1. Solve the quit rng moment making it deterministic.
   -this will still be its own grind but if it was a rng chance of minimum 1 frag - 3 then people could calculate the time they would take.

2. Provide a tangible progression step for lvl 40 gear

3. Add a convertible value for fragment to grind time doing other tasks.
   For example: if it takes someone 3 minutes to do DLP and the average t8 gold grind produces x gold in 3minutes you could calculate the value of a prism.

[solid osprey]

To add to this: prism fragments (or whatever) can still be random amounts. So, 10 one time, 200 the next. Even a low chance of full prism. This would "feel" better, like a slow but distinct, gradual movement towards a full (or 2!) needed prism.

There is alot of conversation about this is supposed to be a grindy game, and alot of comparisons to other games. But until gathering/crafting skill 35, or lv 38, the advancement moves quickly. It doesn't FEEL grindy until then. And then you run into a brick wall with 2500 Hydras and no drop, or 700+ DLP and no prism. t sucks, and it is a DRASTIC change of pace from the previous game experience.

[brazen rose]

Our aim is to target similar grinding experiences as OSRS and want to design systems that make the grind more enjoyable for people

When our auction house comes online, it will be more about gold per hour and less about just grinding one boss

[pallid brook]

to add more context, it's not about the slight low % chance to drop the prism cause you will eventually drop it in all the runs required to level up the character level and/or personal fighting skills, it's about the number of tries you need to do it before completing that step of the game and you don't really have a choice on doing that dungeon or not. it's too good to be skipped if you just hit level 38 and want to grow more, but in the meantime requires a bit too much effort for the number of times you need to complete it gaining low to no rewards until you hit the jackpot with a prism drop. to do all those tries, it's required a big chunk of gaming time and it will be neglected to other activities you're usual to do, so it would be a good way to keep grinding that dungeon if it wasn't mandatory for a weapon required to compete in the level 40 party dungeon, if it didn't have only a bunch of gold as reward, if it would drop t8 mats/whatever you want at least 80% of the times it's been completed like mama manabear does with mana infused rinthistles (and not to troll you since if dlp actually drops something and it's not a prism you get a mini heart attack for nothing) and if it would have a secondary reason to be inside that dungeon, again like mama manabear has mounts pets and cloaks. the problem is that for manabear i can go back on it anytime since it's not mandatory (if you haven't been spellblade cause it's the only good weapon in game for that class under level 38, so the bear is mandatory) and i just want a cloak, mount, pet or a nice weapon for a secondary class, having an easy life being overgrown for that dungeon... it's not possible to do the same with dlp cause after i've reached lvl 40, i've dropped 2 prisms, i won't have any reason outside being masochist to go back in such place. i'm not of course quitting for dlp but for sure needs to be looked into since it's a valid quit moment for lots of players and it is the whole point of the post

[fading hazel]

Great post. I see a lot of DLP i quit posts and the answer is always, with a trading post itll be better. Or, you can buy one from the devs meanwhile.

And, whilst yeah, sure, it always feels like that answer doesnt actually address the underlying issue. And that is the gameplay simply feels bad.

Saying to people, oh but youll be able to skip it when the game is finished cos gold per hour, doesnt address the underlying complaint that the farm doesnt feel good.

If it doesnt feel good, nobody will do it (or they will quit if they feel forced to), and thus if there isnt supply all the gold in the world wont fix it.

I realise there are other variables that will influence things, but overall it feels like the team is stubbornly holding onto DLP when its overwhelmingly shown its forcing players away from the game.

Steam charts dont lie in that regard

[brazen rose]

I definitely see what you mean. I have suggested some things regarding this to Ryan. The design for this is probably going to remain the same in that I think Ryan is still going to make DLP weapons relevant for late game progression , but I suggested that there are more things added to the encounter to make it more engaging from a loot perspective.

We have touched around the idea of a Path associated with this boss and alternative drops beyond the prism drop to make it a resource farm as well. I also suggested breaking up the twilight prism into smaller chunks so it’s more accessible over time

But further discussion is required

[pearl quartz]

Some classes are much more effective at farming DLP than others. It can be helpful to branch out, but that sometimes leads to feeling like you need even more prisms to get weapons for more classes. I do think this system further bottlenecks people into playing only dps classes. Maybe there could be options for healers, tanks, support classes that dont feel as awful? Either a unique encounter that involves healing, or taking a certain amount of damage... or even a group version of DLP that has a higher drop rate of prisms... idk what the best answer is, but I feel like there could be something along these lines. Just look at how many lvl 40 Berserker/Shadowblade/Paladin/Duskbows there are.

[brazen rose]

We can definitely design encounters that work better towards one archetype versus another

But you’re always going to have that problem with solo bosses. You can’t balance it for everyone

[tiny scroll]

I have suggested alot of ideas which pretty much amount to what you are suggesting

Shards which can be combined into a prism whit lower drop rate

[brazen rose]

Crank?!?)

[pearl quartz]

I think we have all suggested the "lots of little drops" method lol

[loud birch]

That was my first thought when reading all of it. These sound like Crank's suggestions lol

[tiny scroll]

yeah i wasnt the first and wont be the last

[brazen rose]

Had a discussion with Ryan. We are going to make some changes

I'm going to add two trinkets to the boss and we are going to split the shards into 6 pieces

then you combine the 6 pieces into one

https://tenor.com/view/spongebob-squarepants-spongebob-dust-hands-gif-4172164

[pearl quartz]

https://tenor.com/view/oh-ok-gary-payton-what-well-ok-then-alright-gif-15987992

[tiny scroll]

Ryan never liked this idea whit lower drop rate right

[brazen rose]

Well it’s kinda the same thing, you’re just making it a bit more incremental

[plain tide]

trinkets? looks like dlp is back on the menu!

[brazen rose]

yeah im going to make 2 for now

[tiny scroll]

yeah that the biggest factor to, this way dopamine will be injected into my veins by getting more drops

[brazen rose]

https://tenor.com/view/adhd-goku-dopamine-powerup-gif-7470948201429011900

[pallid brook]

Will the actual prism be removed for those shards or the complete item will be kept in the drop table? Cause if it will be removed it will be lot worse even with a drop rate multiplied x6 for those shards. I dropped the first prism at 84 runs, now i am at almost 300 and still didn't have found anything more. Let's say i will drop on the next run, i am done... If the shards will replace the item i will take even more time, requiring 5 more rare drops.
If those shards are going to be added should become complementary to the actual prism drop, but with an easier drop rate than the prism (not 6x times easier than the prism but harder than this). We would still aim for the prism but in the meantime we can keep having the feeling of progress if we drop a shard

[brazen rose]

not sure I get that

why would it be worse?

[pallid brook]

Why can't i be lucky and run 2 dlp dropping a prism in both?

[brazen rose]

if we add both the prism and the shards, the prism is officially 2x easier to get, which we dont want

[brazen rose]

this statistically is the same as the shards

the odds of that is 1/256 * 1/256

[pallid brook]

Anyways, it gets worse cause of this, it Is a lucky drop that will become a x6 lucky drop, i need to be lucky 6 times with an easier probability, but in the end it is the same given in a different sauce. I can be lucky again and drop it in the next 84 runs or drop a single shard in 84 runs, then repeat until i complete the 6 shards for the item

[brazen rose]

I cant say I agree with this

There are 2 benefits to this:

1. Incremental progress will feel better overall
2. The price per unit shard will be more manageable for emerging players

This "breaking up into smaller parts" is already a proven method in several games: PoE divination cards, Diablo 2 runes, etc

[pallid brook]

For sure it has advantages and can't say anything against, it's the whole item to be removed that isn't a part that i personally like cause i feel to rush on it before you're going to update the drop table cause in this moment if i drop i am done, if i will drop only shards in future it will keep take time from me neglecting to do other stuff to stay there and drop 5 more

[brazen rose]

For now, the movement will be shards. If we put a twilight prism drop also, it would have to be incredibly rare

like 1/2k

or more

[pallid brook]

Or simply give to shards lower drop rates and keep it as it is

[brazen rose]

this is not the goal we want

as of right now, we do not want to adjust the odds of getting a twilight prism

[pallid brook]

I neither wanted a rework on those, i typed to address we just need more reasons to stay there cause in this moment we are meant to be farming non stop for only a prism and exp on something that becomes boring after hundreds (thousands for lot of players) of tries, that doesn't give anything valid or useful for 1999 tries but at the 2000th you get rewarded with a prism. With shards it will still take 2000 runs, gaining a total of 6 shards in the whole journey, in the actual state i coule have been gone at 84 cause i had luck, the shards aren't going to fix the issue dlp has but for some points of view they are even worse. But the trinkets you mentioned are something that vill start to let me want to run that dungeon

[vital ridge]

What's the percentages of a shard vs prism? Because we can break it down with some qwickmafs

[brazen rose]

i would take the prism % and probably just 1/6 it

yes, it would require 6 runs minimum to get it

[tiny scroll]

funny you say this, you could go 800 more runs whitout getting a prism it all chance if shards are added you dont need insane luck just a little

also easier to trade for gold whit other players because not insanly rare

[pallid brook]

i get it and i don't say that it's bad at all, i say what's bad for my perspective is the removal of the actual main item replaced by those shards. i can see every point you're mentioning and i agree with them all, it's just a personal preference and i am explaining the reasons behind that line of thought. i never said the drop rate is bad even if it is, i just asked for reasons to stay there cause we have low to no rewards, until a jackpot of a prism drops

adding trinkets, side items like pets-mounts, giving materials not to troll you but for the 70-80% times it is complete or anything that will let you think your time hasn't been wasted for 2000 tries until i get that prism. Mama manabear has mana infused rinthistle and if we want to farm for those we know to go there...why do i have to go into DLP again? i have no reasons, only for a prism that won't drop. if i have both prisms and i don't plan to make another weapon, why should i go back there? it is the main reason i started the post, cause it doesn't feel rewarding, requires too effort for the rewards and the time we spend in there is neglected to all other activities we do in game, so we should at the bare minimum compensate something staying in that dungeon and not only a bunch of exp i can take everywhere else

[brazen rose]

I think the DLP system will need to be massaged over time to feel better

I think incremental progress right now is step #1

adding trinkets will help a bit

then we can figure out what else to do, whether that is kill count path rewards, resources, other types of items, etc

[brazen rose]

ryan would need to weigh in on keeping the prism drop, but I don't think that would be the plan if we change to 6 shards

[pallid brook]

that's understandable, but as i understood it will become in future, i feel the rush to go there and drop that item before the x6 shards update will kick in

[vital ridge]

For the sake of this conversation converting from 1/256 to ~1/43 should make the experience much better. A 2% ish chance of a drop would definitely incentive people to keep running it and if they have let's say 5/6 they may just be able to offer someone some gold for it. Shard sounds like a good step.

[merry sand]

I think the prism should stay on the drop table too. Even if it were changed to 1/600 - 1,000 the possibility of hitting the jackpot exists and it creates a fun "what if".

[pearl quartz]

lol the optimism needed to feel like you lose the chance to win 2 full prisms in a row is not worth controlling for bad RNG luck of 1700 and no drops. I wish I could live just one day with that level of confidence.

[fading hazel]

I think this underlying factor is what's really holding things back and where the schism has been formed between the devs and playerbase.

All of the complaints i read simply equate to this. Time spent isn't worth the chance of getting the reward.

Simply shifting how the reward is metered out, doesn't actually address that underlying issue

[brazen rose]

i plan on adding more rewards to this encounter

[fading hazel]

I think you need to do this first, and this is another horse pushing the cart.

This is what makes the experience fun.

[fading hazel]

Thus further exacerbating the need to do DLP which has overwhelmingly been decried as unfun?

[brazen rose]

no, these would be side items

[fading hazel]

How do I get them? by doing DLP?

[brazen rose]

yea

[fading hazel]

I'll repeat.

Thus further exacerbating the need to do DLP which has been overwhelmingly decried as unfun

I get they're side items. But DLP is soloable content, which means that everyone looking to set up for higher tier content that aren't already doing guild shit will naturally flow to solo content. Thus, if the item is a "side" upgrade, it'll be pursued as soloable content. Which means they have to be relevant.

Again, the focus on fixing DLP is around the itemisation and the attainability of it.

You guys have said we're not changing the attainability of it, and simply adding more itemisation doesn't address the fact that people don't enjoy DOING DLP

The elephant in the room, if I may, is holding onto something that by all rights should probably be redesigned or not held on to.

It was Ryan's first attempt at creating something for players to retain them, and while it's done it's job in some ways, I think it's outlived it's usefulness, and the fundamental structure and experience of the place needs to be revisited.

[brazen rose]

i dont think the encounter is that bad. I think it's the fact that people have to run it 10000 times

i mean I can poll it

[pallid brook]

the dungeon is fun to do, has cool mechanics and you have to pay attention on your moves to complete it, it's not straightforwarded to a standing-still-skill-rotation mechanics a mamabear could become when you do it at level 40. it will always require the player to pay attention and it's a nice content to play, the trouble is as you addressed, to do it 10000 times without the feeling of earning something or to be growing on something beside combat experience, repeating that for 10000 times taking all the attention and the effort to gain a fist of gold and complete it in the less possible time to just rinse and repeat. the only reason to be running the dungeon is the prism, i can earn combat experience and gold in thousands ways and if i should be running that dungeon for thousands of times neglecting my time to any other profession or content, such dungeon should reward for the time spent inside it

[brazen rose]

yes. This is understandable

i thought dlp was fun to do. It's just, right now, 1/256 odds to get an item, to me, feels terrible

i'm a diablo 2 gamer, and when I kill mephisto 400 times, it was at least fun to watch all the differnet gear drop

so I do want this to be fun to kill in terms of loot

[safe moss]

people these days just arent built for the grind. try not to complain about dlp challenge impossible.

[brazen rose]

i mean it is a pain in the ass to run it so many times

[safe moss]

if you do the 'fragments' idea. u should make the fragments untradeable. and keep the prism itself tradeable. 🧐

[pallid brook]

i'm still doing it and still not have been bored of doing it but of course after 1000 tries my mind could change, i can agree with you saying that it's more a lack of drops and motivation since the only reason to be there is to get prisms that have low drop chances and getting only experience running it. as mentioned i surely prefer to earn experience in a way i feel good to spend my time into and not spending it in dlp so if i may have already dropped all the prisms i need, i wouldn't go in that dungeon back again because i have no reasons to be there. it's not a complaint, is to let it grow in a positive way and not be a frustrating wall to climb for everyone once the game will be closer to be complete.

[brazen rose]

why is that?

fragments would actually allow a pretty nice sub-currency for things

[safe moss]

wasnt ryan against tons of different currencies being used in game or am i misremembering

[brazen rose]

well the fragments are currencies, per se

but people can use them as one

[safe moss]

so that it remains an actual achievment getting one

[brazen rose]

just like how in d2 and poe, runes are currencies

[safe moss]

you either buy the big item via trade or incrementally grind out the fragments to get the big item yourself. people gonna be out here buying fragments at level 35 and not even running dlp once 😂

[brazen rose]

yeah that's is ok imo

[safe moss]

so its irrelevant content ok 🧐

[brazen rose]

well you can choose whether you want to grind it or buy it

just like I can choose to grind an item in PoE or buy it

i think giving players agency whether they WANT to engage in the content in the first place is better. If you dont want to run DLP, you dont have to do it

[tiny scroll]

there is truth to what you are saying here, i think if there where about 15 diffrent dlps it would be more enjoyable but then the reward structure would hold it back

running DLP is fun the first 10 to 20 times after that its just auto pilot

doing something on auto pilot and not getting any decent rewards makes it real unfun

[fading hazel]

I think this just highlights what im talking about.

People have talked about it being something thats fun for 10 or 20 goes and then you have it up on a second monitor while you watch a movie.

You keep mentioning d2 loot reward systems. Killing mephisto 400 times etc.

D2 players know what i mean when i say, d2 loot was special. And so simply repeating a boss wasnt going for the same loot table. Theyre being compared, but they are fundamentally different because of the nuance and complexities of loot in d2. Something that Ethyrial doesnt have, and if it was going to, wouldve been addressed by now.

You yourself said it was a pain in the ass to run it so many times.

And its never going to have the complexity of d2 loot. No matter how many fragments or subsets of fragments you add.

And so fundamentally people are going to be saying the same shit further down the line if you arent fundamentally changing the odds of getting a prism. Which you stated you dont want to change.

Its shallow content. No other way to put it

[pearl quartz]

That's not really correct. There are 2 problems people have raised, one is the drops rate is too low for them. The other is RNG on a low drop rate can make it feel really bad. Grinding feels more fun with RNG doesn't single you out for 1700 runs and decides you get nothing. This is what this fixes.
The idea of shards is from the community, not the devs. As for the drop rate changing, people will always complain if they have to wait for something. Right now, this is the last weapon anyone is supposed to get. People quit sometimes when they have to grind too long to get an item. People always quit when they run out of content. Not sure why we can't just let a nice thing be a nice thing, try it out first, and then if solving the problem of RNG does not make it better, address the problem of drop rate after.

[fading hazel]

People have 100% raised the issue multiple times that it is boring as fuck and they do it on a second monitor

Right now, this is the last weapon anyone is meant to get, highlights my underlying point about it entirely.

Doesnt matter if it is alpha or not.

A solo based experience, should not be the final thing to get in an mmo.

Its shallow

[brazen rose]

BoC right now is the pinnacle content, which is a group dungeon

[fading hazel]

Predominantly folk have said the procs from dlp make those weapons bis.

Regardless, i was using Minyos language there.

I also fail to understand how simply splitting up the rng into subsets, but not altering the ratios, addresses the fact of rng.

6 shards, or 1 shard, if the chance of getting 6 shards of the correct type is equal to getting 1 shard, then you are just splitting hairs. Or shards...

I get that players will be able to trade and whatnot. But it fundamentally doesnt address the actual experience of the looting etc

[brazen rose]

It is entirely a psychological phenomenon

The idea of progression versus a nothing or jackpot system

Why not just drop Engima with a 1/200k chance?

instead, I get a ber rune, which is 1/3 of an enigma

[fading hazel]

But you couldnt horadric certain runes past a tier, so this doesnt hold the same.

[brazen rose]

you still needed to find and trade for those runes.

im saying, by design, enigma was not a single drop

it was split into three separate items

actually 4

the base, too

[fading hazel]

Haha. I was gonna say 😉

Yeah. And i get all of that.

My final paragraph addresses that I believe.

The actual experience of the looting is key, and using things like d2 are not a good example for the reasons i have put.

For starters, runes werent specified to one place. Thats the glaringly obvious one.

Secondly. Your level dictated the loot even from the same mob. And thus what you saw at level 50 in hell would not be what you saw at level 80 in hell.

Ethyrial has nothing like this.

Im saying, by design, fundamentally keeping the same chance for the encounter, isnt going to address the fundamental underlying problems with it.

Referencing d2 runes as a way to provide a premises for that design, is to ignore multiple facets of other underlying design that allow for the initial point to "feel good".

[brazen rose]

sure, runes are not in a specified area, but there are zones where it is hyper inflated. Trav, countess, etc

[fading hazel]

So if you want those same feel good moments to exist in ethyrial, predicated on designs like runewords which had crazy % chances to find them, you would also need to modify loot in a way which also applied.

[fading hazel]

Which is my point isnt it? You arent planning on changing those values. You said it outright.

That was my entire point. D2 loot is predicated on precisely stuff like that where it is hyper inflated. So you could do pointed farms where it felt ok. Because it had a contrast.

What contrasts DLP?

Felt "ok"

[brazen rose]

in D2, certain bosses dropped certain items in the loot table

[fading hazel]

Huh?

Like yeah sure. And your level would dictate the values on rares etc. I get all of how the loot worked.

Re-iterating to me how d2 loot works doesnt change my assertion ethyrial loot doesnt work the same way, and using runes as a way to argue for dlp being split into prisms wont change that

[brazen rose]

I mean you can think whatever you want. I'm saying that the base design decision to take runes and assemble them into an item was a way to take "RNG" and turn it into an incremental stepwise system to a deterministic item

It is takign the dopamine of Enigma and splitting it up into 4 different stages

[fading hazel]

I think there is a misunderstanding

[fading hazel]

Righto then.

I can think what i want. Im not sure what that has to do with the price of fish here

You can say what you want about d2 loot as well. Doesnt mean the loot in your game is going to correlate in the same way

[brazen rose]

Idk you seem to be bashing our loot system lol

[fading hazel]

Its the quit moments channel dave

You expecting rainbows in here?

Honestly. Dont answer that.

[brazen rose]

here's what I will say:

I actually like our loot system. It is something that is evolving as we get more ideas. We want to be able to create systems that interact with each other (enchants interacting with damage types, horizontal leading into vertical progression). I like our rare drop tables and mob-specific grinds that reward things. I think we are doing a good job.

[fading hazel]

All i said was that if you arent changing the values, then youll run into the same issue later on.

Good for you. you are allowed to think what you like.

And here is what i will say. Again.

If you dont change the underlying values of being able to achieve the end goal, you will run into the same issues.

Appealing to a system like d2, ignores the other underlying pieces that allowed for that system to work.

If thats me bashing your loot system, sure. I personally dont think it is, and think you guys need a thicker skin when coming into the quit moments channel

[brazen rose]

im not saying our system is like D2. I'm saying that the fact that a game like D2 used the rune system to split the psychological impact of one item into 4 was all i was getting at

i can think of other games, if that helps

[mortal gazelle]

100% drop chance pls

give the players their items

[fading hazel]

If it helps you, go for it. I think the underlying issue is doing dlp 1000 times and it doesnt matter how you break it down.

Like i said. D2 had underlying systems which made that system viable.

Basic stuff like being used in multiple recipes etc. Horadric cube. More than just one function.

I'd put a cheeky wager most of the other games also had a similar getup where the "rune" had multiple functions. Obviously there will be ones that don't, but in an mmo setting, jeez theyd have to be rare wouldnt they?

[fading hazel]

As genuine and sincere as possible here.

Ive left posts in the what do you love about ethyrial channel too. I try to provide perspective, and critique. Yes, i am opinionated, and the opinion is critical 99% of the time.

But as real as i can be.

This is the quit moments channel bro. It aint gonna be full of shit you guys are gonna enjoy reading.

You dont have to agree, nor do you have to engage, just like i can think what i want.
But when you do engage, that sort of comment isnt gonna engender anything positive eh?

If yer gonna debit people for being critical, in the same vain, itd be nice to see the same level of credit when people praise the game.

And if not, then just dont engage. Look down upon me with disdain and turn your nose up at my lack of understanding and lack of decorum. Or whatever. But its the quit channel. Why else did you set it up if for people? If not for them to tell you what they think is shit about your game?

[brazen rose]

https://tenor.com/view/facepalm-really-stressed-mad-angry-gif-16109475

[next saffron]

https://tenor.com/view/michael-jackson-comendo-picoca-gif-9669437860846841235

[brazen rose]

This channel has been extremely important in figuring out points of contention across different layers of the game. I am not invalidating anything in that regard.

I'm not going to harp on my other feelings about this discussion, it's not worth the effort. Just gonna get back to work. I encourage everyone to continue making comments about their quit moments and let us know points of friction.

I will do my best to engage when/if I can

[fading hazel]

Haha. Encourage you to make comments about quit moments but please dont bash our systems?

https://tenor.com/view/facepalm-really-stressed-mad-angry-gif-16109475

[brazen rose]

Zorg, you can continue to bash our loot system. I apologize for my reaction. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion

But know our loot system will not change

[fading hazel]

Dave, months ago i gave feedback and the retort was, why dont you go play another game then? That said enough at the time.

Apology accepted, but its repeat, from multiple team members. I couldnt care less if you like me, im just trying to offer perspective. Take it, leave it, do what you want with it
When the feedback cant be separated from the person, in a channel dedicated to it, what more is there to say?

I offered a sincere and genuine comment on that with a little bit of self disparragement at my approach. But i wont apologise for it.

You should know by now ill say what i want and think what i want. I dont need permission for that 🙂

I was originally bashing DLP btw, not your loot system persay. I said i didnt think that changing the system would fix the underlying issue with DLP, and it got weirdly lost somewhere along the way.

[brazen rose]

In order for us to truly understand the crux of the problems here, it needs to come from actually experiencing the content. No inference, no speculation. Truly engaging with it and understanding the minutia of what makes something bad game design.

Saying our loot system needs work without engaging with the second half of the game doesn't instill confidence in me that you really have all the pieces together to make that claim. You may actually like DLP and enjoy grinding it for all you know! But I don't really appreciate when you are piggybacking off other's quit moments instead of outlining your own quit moments as you play through the totality of the experience. It's not just these things in vacuum, it's how they all interact with each other.

The discussions about Enchanter, for example, are extremely helpful, because you are exclusively playing that class as you are playing the game. You let us know when Enchanter + another variable is causing friction, which is perfect for us

I encourage that you continue to play the game and see how the flow of all these systems cause you quit moments. And this will require that you engage with DLP and validate your claims.

We need data-driven decisions, here.

[pearl quartz]

https://tenor.com/view/the-chosen-jesus-point-look-up-smiling-gif-1939873255476969076

[fading hazel]

So poll it.

As it goes. If dlp prism has a drop, and the drop is being split into 6 components, with the overall chance to end up with the item being the same, i dont have to engage in your systems to make claims.

This is like saying to an architect you have to walk around the building to say anything about the structural plans.

Ive said i dont believe you are addressing the underlying issue. Just the same as an architect would point something out on some drafts.

Its a complete fallacy to assert i need to play DLP to validate anything. You've already validated all of the information required by stating the drop chance wont change

I encourage you to separate comments from the person and grow a bit of a hide before you come in here and engage with people and then whine at them for bashing your game, when it's literally the channel to do that.

If you dont like me piggybacking off other people, tough shit tbh. I am, i have, take it or leave it

[jagged thicket]

zorg check early supporters, i need feedback on zorgified keys

[pallid brook]

DLP
i've been able to drop both prisms inside the dungeon, the first after more or less 80 runs, the second after more or less 400 runs (but there's people running it for thousands of times without a single drop).
the dungeon engages the player in a way where his attention is always required and can't be distracted as it can take to an easy death, so running dlp for all these times without even taking damage in the most of the runs was personally almost satisfying and the dungeon design is cool, i had fun on running it. as i already mentioned, it's not a dungeon where people can go back after have been overgrown since there isn't a highly tangible growth from such point if we compare it to the lvl 30 solo dungeon manabear, where you can go back at level 40 (or less) being totally overgrown with highly tangible upgrades and complete it in seconds standing still, skipping all dungeon mechanics.
the problem is still the same from my perspective, the lack of motivation between each run because there is the frustration of the "all or nothing" in the dlp dungeon, where you can get a fist of gold (and sometimes be trolled by a side purple t8 material drop that is there only to jumpscare you) or a prism, there's nothing in between that is motivating the player to run it and not feel so much frustration after every empty run. i can go back on manabear (or farm as i did as soon as i reached level 30) and feeling good to do it because you can find various items inside such dungeon, worth or not worth it, they're on the drop table and there's people that want to collect everything is possible to collect.

in this specific moment i could totally forget about that dlp and move on, i liked the amount of combat and skill experience i gained from those runs but they aren't really motivating me to still farm that dungeon cause i can keep growing my combat level and skills by raising skinning/leatherworking as i was already doing or on any other content and, playing as a monoclass spellblade, i won't need more prisms from dlp. i would surely be glad to go back in there if i had any other reason beside prisms or combat exp to stay inside and seems to be the way you already mentioned to be heading to, adding eventually some trinket or quality of life items inside such dungeon. to give a bland idea, even an item that will let you teleport inside that building from anywhere would be something i would pursue and would let me go back into dlp, cause as of now i would go there only to help some friends to get a prism or to get some combat exp in a single dungeon completion.
said so, the first thing i said after the last prism dropped was "let's get out of here!" and now i can say i will still run it sometimes in the spare time because i can, not because i need, now that it doesn't give me anymore the feeling of pressure for it's only and unique drop. if i wouldn't have dropped the prism, i surely would have felt less pressure or less frustration for the effort vs gainings if i could have been farming maybe t8 materials or any specific item (as for mana infused rinthistle from manabear) with those runs waiting for the prism to be dropped. i will totally be happy in future to go back in dlp for few more time to get alternative drops once they will be added.

[loud birch]

I just want to put very simply, the main reason I quit is because of people like Zorg being a part of the community. Absolutely exhausting to be around someone that's so difficult 24/7. Yes you can ignore people, but when they put paragraphs in every single channel, every fucking day, and react to everything going on, eventually your feed becomes zorgified or just a wall of "blocked message".

There's a few other's I'd lump in with Zorg, but it's the Zorg-like players in the community that make me not want to be a part of the game

Zorg shut the fuck up you suck

I have like 3000 DLP runs, and that is way more tolerable than Zorg's daily journal entries

https://tenor.com/view/team-america-drunk-get-off-the-street-bum-gif-17975291875927320555

[fading hazel]

https://tenor.com/view/crying-tissue-gif-22251864

[loud birch]

So obvious that you got bullied and beat up your whole life

deserved for sure

I pArSeD 80s oN cLaSsIc WoW - CrEaTe EtHyRiAl In My ViSiOn

https://tenor.com/view/spongebob-gif-9844027

[fading hazel]

Im free to give my feedback just the same as you.

[loud birch]

I actually played the game

[minor isle]

zorg i dont hate you ok

https://tenor.com/view/group-hug-matthew-casey-kelly-severide-wallace-boden-jesse-spencer-gif-23569026

[hollow valve]

Idk if I "quit", but I havn't launched the game in a while after reaching the big city. I know it's on your radar already, but what I didn't like was :
If you take a break and forgot which NPC you have to see, sometimes they're just not marked anymore after the first encounter. The map research feature doesn't work. So you end running around that damn place for 30min.
Going back and forth, like from docks to south gate is a major pain in the butt. I'd advise putting a few teleporters in that city to at least cut on the insane waste of time that it is while you work on it.
Lastly, I chose the golem class, and the pets behaviour / AI is straight up frustrating. In the first couple of towns, when you go into caves from the above ground, your pets often don't follow, and recall just doesn't work. You have to unsummon/re summon.
The mage sometimes get the aggro and does not get out of the way / the brute taunt doesn't help.
Being an Ultima Online player I can issue independent commands to each pets to adress such cases, not here.
I have no idea what difference there is in the brutes spells. Is it just 3 spells for the sake of it and a sense of progression instead of buffing the first one ? Or are they fundamentally different, to tank X type of dmg or w/e ?
Otherwise, cool little game.

[arctic jasper]

I forgot which dev it was but the suggestion to have you enter edrivine using the leyline portal instead felt like a good move imo since you're nearer to most of the key stuff

[brazen rose]

yes, but we need to now move hawizz to the portal 😛

[jagged thicket]

bump

[jagged thicket]

bump

[silk python]

Playing as an infuser, my biggest UGH was when I fell down a hole, tried to recall them so they would follow but they were bugged out above me thinking they were at my level. Died in short order.

[merry sand]

Excellent stones

I've been trying to think of why it feels so awful but maybe it's the combo of things. The mobs don't give great exp. They hit hard. There's no materials around to farm up other skills. There's no unique other drops. They don't drop much gold. You can't target farm MH on them. You can't level up research. You're just stuck at each spot until you're done.

It's not the length of the grind. I think it's only 50 or so hours to complete them all if I'm mathing right which in the grand scheme of things isn't much once you're 40+. It's forced me to play the game very casually the last couple months just so I don't burnout and quit.

[tiny scroll]

yeah its quite the drag

[fluid crypt]

My current hiatus from the game is not because of any one issue but multiple small issues that can each be overlooked but after 1k hours I can't anymore.

Unable to move my interface. A linux specific issue but its been one since the manabear update and I don't wanna deal with it anymore. Makes the game awkward while trying to use the bank or trade since the bag opens top center of screen. Can't use sliders in shops even.

Incredibly long loading times. Switching to DX11 helps this a lot but what it doesn't help is the loading screen being infinite. I was looking forward to farming the new DLP gear but after my 5th kill was greeted by this I gave up. Don't wanna do the key grind for the same reason. Anything that involves a loading screen is russian roulette.

Hitboxes on objects not making any sense at times. Having to get just the right angle to click a tree or bush gets old.

I have just about every class but only ever use 2, maybe 3. If Shadowblade isn't the answer Duskbow is, otherwise I'm a tank in very rare group situations.

Watching the game slowly eat my ram during a session. It crashes if I let it get to 38gb.

The small amount of agency I have in combat encounters is both good and bad. It's good because you can somewhat not pay attention but I also want more depth to the classes and their rotations. I have no connection to what I'm playing other than "it's effective"

Can't sell armor to an armor vendor. Can only buy enchanting mats in Farwood, gatekeeping them behind the russian roulette loading screen.

Unless loot is the material I'm trying to farm or a RDT it's aggravating to see. I do not want a lvl 30 str pot from a lvl 40+ mob. Finding a vendor and dealing with the selling interface is not worth picking it up.

I have more but I think my point is made. None of these are new issues or grievances the community hasn't already discussed before.

Death by a thousand cuts with the final one being russian roulette loading screens.

[tiny scroll]

Agree on the loot, it was added to solve the only silver issue. Imo they should drop at lvl mats so t7 or t8 pots

[jagged thicket]

We’ll definitely keep addressing these throughout alpha, appreciate the post and calling out key issues ❤️

Also I will build a new Linux client tonight so we have an updated version

[brazen rose]

I also think for the loot, making it easier to sell stuff will help. Every vendor should buy everything

[fluid crypt]

I know the Oath team will resolve a lot of the grievances. It's a great game and I was willing to overlook a lot of them to experience all it had to offer. Now that my focus on the game is narrow in what I need to do the small issues just began to add up.

[jagged thicket]

bump

[river tendon]

Brought this up in my bug / feedback thread #1439523954174984242 message (see attached video and comment)

But TLDR: Having no immunity / protection when zoning into a new area, notably leaving a dungeon that is surrounded by mobs, is poor design. That's a potential death sentence for something you have no control over, made worse by those with worse hardware. I would expect a HC player would quit on the spot if they died to something entirely out of their control, or at least be tempted to.

[jagged thicket]

there should be an application of immunity for 15 or 20 seconds when spawning into a new map if the player hasn't moved, it might be bugged atm - ill check it

[river tendon]

In my particular instance, I was leaving the Pumpkin King map and swarmed by goblins before I could react. I'd imagine it's broke systemtically and not just on a per-map basis, though. At least, that's how I'd program it 😅

[wind fossil]

This has happened to me many times leaving boc

[jagged thicket]

Should be fixed lmk if so

[river tendon]

Looks to be fixed. Still kinda rough that they aggro IMO, you could still realistically die here pretty easily but at least you are protected until you move. Perhaps a more holistic fix would be ensuring no dungeon entrances have mobs directly within aggro range. Can still be close but not right on top of it so you have a bit more player agency.

[pallid brook]

I'm typing this in the Quit Moments to leave a track here on it too, cause if i will be logging would be only to complete the last daily tasks on the taskboard until some changes will have been done.
I'm leaving for the unhealthy long, risky, tedious, unnecessary and unsensed grind we are meant to be facing for a piece of equipment and i'm talking about the Cromatic Band. Farming for it is one of the worst things i've been facing in my 1000 hours of gaming, only the old DLP mechanics were comparable. In fact the same problem has been shown in past on DLP by the vast majority of players and changes has been done to it, because was relying only on the luck but from the time shards and other drops have been added to it we can now build something by the time we spend into that dungeon, motivating the players grinding for equipment. It's been understood that we want to be building something if we have to stay on a specific content for long, having no rewards and no ways to be working effectively on the goal brings us to loosen the grip.

Now let's talk about the Sentinel farm in the wildlands, for the prismatic gem required for that ring, one of the most important pieces of equipment usable by every single class. It requires a player with level 40 mining skill, high leveled with a good gear, with a solid good backup equipment, not fearing to be losing everything he's carrying and a lot of patience to invest in a no-gaining environment even given the previous points.
In the last 2 weeks i've been only in the wildlands and farming on sentinels, reaching in ~100 hours precisely 10k kills on them without aquiring the item i was there for. All the time and effort spent there has zero value, if i may go right now back on them to be farming it is like if i have never been there, still requiring to rely on the 0.01% chances to obtain the item on every future kill as it has been for the last 10k. I'm okay on the RNG for unnecessary, secondary, event, special or cosmetic items but i am totally against this mechanic for equipments and tangible improvements being those mandatory. For the tier 9 armor i had one of the best experiences even if that was the longest and hardest grind i had to be facing, i felt that everything i was doing was bringing something to the table pushing me to keep going and after completing the goal it was totally worth it. If you can't be working for goals and every effort toward everything you've done in your journey leads to be playing on a slot machine to keep progressing drains my joy to login.
Being on an alpha and a work in progress game i will just be waiting for some work to be done on these placeholder gacha mechanics on equipments but in this actual moment i am not feeling invested into keep going

[jagged thicket]

We can put these on the “items to buy from Ryan until there’s a TP” list

[pearl quartz]

The farm is awful and since its in WL it feels even worse. You either go there with bad gear which is not fun, or you risk losing your good gear which is less fun. I dont think that ring is remotely mandatory though. Just the last thing to farm when you have run out of other solo content.

[tiny scroll]

Sure for a fair price

What you say about 5rdt weapons

[jagged thicket]

[tiny scroll]

I got 6 rdt weapons for the prismatic gem

What you say

6 weapons times 3k each is 18k

Should be worth

[jagged thicket]

i think we can only accept cashola

not enough sinks atm

https://tenor.com/bBIEH.gif

[tiny scroll]

I got some rdt weapons i dont know what to do whit them

[jagged thicket]

theorycraft a new build!

[pallid brook]

Not to be pessimistic but TP can't generate something that doesn't drop. All the time spent without building anything and without any reward in this randomness, as it has been for DLP, is an issue that stretched out also to sentinels and right now i can't think otherwise that it can stretch out on future new contents. Equip is meant to be changed, can't invest 100 hours in randomness on something that the next week may be substituted by something else, it's a total waste of time and insulting the time already spent to arrive on such points for everything you've been building and working to reach.
For the mandatory aspect, it's an improvement on your gear, it's mandatory to keep improving and as a DPS everything having damage % is mandatory, as it is the ring or i could be saying DLP weapons and Hydra necklace aren't mandatory too.
I can appreciate the fact to be able to purchase it from a developer but i am totally against it. The problem is not having or not having the item, it's the way and the requirements to be able to farm for it and not having anything in your hands in the end, not talking about the item per se but even a little progress would be appreciated.

[tiny scroll]

Yeah i agree thats what i used to say about prisms

Took half a year for that to change from the first time i talked about shards

Probably another half a year when someone else mentioned it before me

I also think a item in Wildlands shouldnt be rare

Its already a pvp zome

[jagged thicket]

The chance to drop from mining is 1/1k with 40 mining, plus there's a chance to drop from kills

The item is more common than hydra items at 1/2k

This scenario is highly unlucky - i'll run it thru an LLM and see what percentile it is to not get the drop by now

However, the pity system from myself / TP would cover these types of shortfalls, as the gold gen would have made it possible to buy before 10k kills

In other words:

Only about 1 in 89,285 players would be this unlucky
They are unluckier than 99.999% of players```

Expected drops from 10k kills: 10,000 × 0.0011 = 11 prismatic gems

[pallid brook]

i've crafted the eternal pickaxe right before going to farm for sentinels, leaving my balance at 1k gold. after 10k kills and 14 days of daily tasks on woodworking and jewelcrafting, i am at 5000-6000 gold so it won't cover the cost of the gem

[jagged thicket]

how many gems do you have though? pristines, etc

[pallid brook]

the point by my perspective remains the same, locking important gear behind randomness and not having any chance to be building something for it isn't stimulating anybody. It's the same for classes that rely mostly on RDT weapons as a brawler, but we know those are RDT weapons from every kill in the world and we accept it, here is just an intensive farm that you do only if you're focused on jewelcrafting or that ring

[pallid brook]

oh i lost the count. pristines and exquisites less than i thought, rough normal and brilliant really a lot

but still will require to put yourself again in a high risk environment due to the trade routes

and let's be honest, it takes a really long time to make all the travels if you're unexperienced on the trading skill

[tiny scroll]

You are calculating chance again ry

Its just 1/1k which is extremely low chance

Its not like the more i kill the more chance

Its just 1/1k to roll lucky on it

[jagged thicket]

for 10k kills, and becoming the 99.99 percentile, I am happy to give you an award for being the unluckiest player on this farm

I can give you a prismatic gem as a reward

[tiny scroll]

I think if you ask most people how many kills it took

[jagged thicket]

I can sell one to simulate a TP existing - other players' luck or time can be bought that way

[tiny scroll]

Mowt i heard it took about 6-7k

Which is still insane

Once again if you divide the gem into 6 parts whit higher drop chance

People will work towards a objective

Instead of winning lottery or nothing

[river tendon]

I think the point they are trying to make Ryan, and I apologize if you feel I'm speaking for you Denso, is that they don't just want it given to them because they were unlucky, they feel that the process of getting there is unrewarding and the effort doesn't reward you unless you do get lucky. In other words, making part of the "journey" rewarding is what is missing, on top of it being potentially too rare on top of it being in a contested zone.

[jagged thicket]

Could be done - but that's under the current environment with 0 low friction economy

With a TP, you'll run over there and buy one of the listings for current price

[fading hazel]

Whos to say everyone isnt going to have the same luck as Denso though?

[tiny scroll]

Most i know have had the same luck

[fading hazel]

TP doesnt just magically make the item drop

[jagged thicket]

Math 😄

[tiny scroll]

Thats why everyone loves the dlp changes as well

Because its no longer insanely small change to get what you want

[jagged thicket]

except wxd, he lost like 3 prisms by now 🤣

we need a TP up, with listings, and an incentive to gain gold - after that we can make some tweaks based on what info comes back

[fading hazel]

Fair. I can pay that.

But like its been pointed out. Dlp got changed for the exact same reason.

Dont get me wrong, im not adverse to a good grind.

[pearl quartz]

I only killed like 2k sentinels to get mine. Then I got another after like 500 more kills

[jagged thicket]

Ultimately we want to have a variety of farms w different drop themes

1/1k chance + chance/kill = gem
1/42 x 6 = prism
1/12 x 200 = ???
etc

[fading hazel]

Ill buy a gem off you to simulate a bit of economy

Tree fiddy

[jagged thicket]

https://tenor.com/bjlCn.gif

[fading hazel]

Denzo i got a gem to sell you. 5k gold sound reasonable?

[jagged thicket]

simulating a 'merchanting' economy where the profiteers flip items

love it!!!

https://tenor.com/bd6qI.gif

[tiny scroll]

@muted bronze helped me mine a couple and got it after 10

[pallid brook]

and i've got my first prism in the DLP after 80 runs, how's it fair compared to who ran it 1300 times to complete a weapon? the randomness on equipment is just wrong, can't change my mind

[tiny scroll]

Yeah agreed on that

But Yeah i aint never going back after 7k Sentinels just not worth the sanity

[fading hazel]

In my opinion, and experience, this is why games have reputation. It gives the player a tangible process of achieving a goal, whilst also gating it behind hours of gameplay. The developers get to stretch out content with gated means, and the player gets to feel tangible achievements with incremental steps.

not to mention immersive qualities, but they're slightly tangental to the above discussion

[tiny scroll]

I know a guy called @carmine lynx who went 1000 whitout 1

[wind fossil]

It would be interesting to see what the actual drop rate has been on the prismatic gem.

Because Minyo getting the second one after an additional 500 is the first I’ve heard a number less than a thousand

[jagged thicket]

Rep can work too, one of the loot themes - deterministic

[jagged thicket]

If it wasn’t a mining drop it would be pretty easy to run a script to check all monster dexes

[wind fossil]

I mean, I thought I was lucky getting mine at ~1750 sentinels

Is it a drop chance per tic of mining?

[jagged thicket]

I think it’s just 1 tick per mob

[wind fossil]

Theres 2 tics of mining per sentinel

[jagged thicket]

I’ll double check but I believe the drop is when it’s fully depleted

kk i was wrong

it can drop in either tick

[tiny scroll]

Xd

[jagged thicket]

that means he was like...

99.999999999% unlucky

https://tenor.com/bHrSQ.gif

[wind fossil]

Yeah, I dont believe every single person who has farmed it has been unlucky

[tiny scroll]

I have about 7k solo kills

Then about 6k whit loady which dont count for me

Monsterdex was buggy

I didnt mine 5k of the 7k

Did mine the 6k whit loady

So about 8k whitout drop

[wind fossil]

at 2 tics with 1/1000 chance per mob, 10k mobs, thats roughly a 0.025% chance to not get a drop

[jagged thicket]

currently raw drop is 1/10k as well as a cherry on top

[wind fossil]

~36.8% chance to not get a direct drop after 10k mobs

Overall drop rate for 2 tics and direct drop chance is 1 in 910

per sentinel

[fluid crypt]

I ran about 3k kills and gave up on it.

[fading hazel]

This is kinda my take too. I get the math is on ryans side. And tp and all that.

Wonder what the sample size is

[jovial magnet]

3893 kills all mined and got a straight drop at the end. I believe i got like 5-6 rdt drops on top of all the other gems. I remember talking to Minyo about how the rdt drop rate feeling higher too

[tiny scroll]

Alright this is not a quit moment for me but it probably will for a lot of players. All the small little bugs and problems, for example stopping all your movement when you switch tabs and have to left click to start being able to cast anything again or the bank not being able to open my bags till i love the bank screen around

Or the loading times when moving try ley lines or just ardd Holm dropping fps by like 100

[tiny scroll]

Its all the small things combined that makes players quit not the 1 small things

[fading hazel]

the stopping movement one is infuriating for me! cannot stress it enough

[jagged thicket]

we are trying to blast these bugs for sure, was working on the tile/object loading issue yday

[tiny scroll]

Yeah its really annoying

[river tendon]

I agree. I'm also more tolerant of these than most, like you are. I've listed most of those issues in my bug / feedback thread as well.

Certainly a death by a thousand cuts situation.

[tiny scroll]

How much for 1 prismatic gem

[jagged thicket]

i'd say

if prism = 8k and it's 1/256 @ 1m/kill

and gem is ~1/1k @ 15s/kill+gather + 1.5x WL risk multiplier

12k seems pretty reasonable ?

[tiny scroll]

Sadge

Got 10

[jagged thicket]

https://tenor.com/bfP6H.gif

[pearl quartz]

https://tenor.com/view/chihiro-gold-digger-no-face-man-spirited-away-anime-gif-15365986

[tiny scroll]

Ryan

Sorry @jagged thicket i got the money

[jagged thicket]

kk

[tiny scroll]

got a loan from the minyo bank

only costs 1/6th of my soul in interest

little does minyo know i sold mine long ago

[plain tide]

prob why the gem didnt drop for you

its a soulgem

[tiny scroll]

https://tenor.com/view/crying-happy-but-sad-face-gif-3965076157677852181

[plain tide]

https://tenor.com/view/thanos-gamora-infinity-war-soul-stone-sacrifice-gif-14289940

[tiny scroll]

@jagged thicket i am on rn if you got time

[brazen rose]

I can help you out

[tiny scroll]

thx dave

[jagged thicket]

https://tenor.com/IB0A0ina9v.gif

[pallid brook]

For the sake of knowledge and the in game persistence, will the path of random drops for equipments intended for improving the character and items/perks we are meant to be farming be kept as it is right now for sentinels and as it was for DLP before the shards update? Will the astral equipment be kept as a random form of drops even if we are meant to be farming for it to compete in higher ranks of astral maps, for example? Will we have a way to make progress on goals we are meant to be reaching to progress further in our gaming journey having a progression curve on the time we are investing on such contents or will it be kept based totally on luck?
I am being honest as always, the answer to those questions will impact a lot for me because even though i want still enjoy and be part of the game development, i can't help but think that in future what has already happened will be repeated and it's the reason i am making those questions. If it is just right now and it will be alike also on future contents just a placeholder mechanic meant to be revisited once the development of such content reaches a certain point, i am willing to accept the offer you've made and keep going, waiting to see what the future changes will bring on the table. If it's intended to be kept as a form of randomness and luck based system even on future contents we are meant to be doing to improve i'm going to maintain the direction i'm already taking cause as mentioned before, everything done has been too deep to arrive to the point to rely just on the luck where all the time/effort invested up to there vanish and lose all the value by my personal perspective

[tiny scroll]

any mmos has the luck based system we have in ethyrial

but in most mmos you have a tp and alot of players

in gw2 for example you can play for 1000 hours and not see a precursor

but because alot of people play and tp exist you cna buy it from there

for certain things like sentinels i agree its kinda bad, also because there is no othere reason to go there except prismatic gem

if there was something else you could farm while doing it wouldnt feel as bad

and no the normal gems you get from mining them dont count

[pallid brook]

i'm not going to say what's good or bad, it's only my personal perspective as a player and i'm not going to compare mmo cause every one works fine with itself, but since you mentioned gw2 and precursors, yes you're right if you want to rely on the slight infinitesimal low % you have to get them to be able to craft a legendary equipment. what has been done is to make many routes for the player to work his way to, in the end, aquire the precursor of choice once all the tasks has been completed so you don't have to rely on the randomness if you are focusing yourself on making a legendary weapon and work your way daily on reaching your goal. this doesn't add or get anything from ethyrial, it's just to answer to the message you posted mentioning another mmo i think works pretty well, but i would have been playing on gw2 and not on ethyrial if i wanted guild wars mechanics, what i am saying is just that we should have a way to not only rely on randomness and luck on important steps for our characters

[tiny scroll]

the thing you are ignoring is that if tp exist and more people play prismatic gems would be for sale

so you dont have to grind sentinels to get

but same as whit old dlp if there is no smaller thing i get before getting the really big reward it just feels bad

so in my opinion sentinels should be really good for getting gems they are just kinda meh now

so you have people that would jsut farm sentinels to get jewelcrafting up and get prismatic gems in the progress

[pallid brook]

i get your point and i am totally into it, indeed. seems that the point i'm showing isn't getting taken, i am referring about items we are meant to be farming for our improvements being locked behind repetitive RNG without having the slight possibility to give value to the time spent on those contents since no progress can be done, after all the deep gameplay you've had up to that points. i don't care if it's a prismatic gem from a sentinel, a twilight prism from a DLP, a weapon or armor from an astral map, a future piece of gear on future level 45+ mobs etc, i care about the mechanics behind the obtaining such items we are meant to be farming to improve our characters. all other items are deep to be crafted or obtained and you can feel the progress on every step you take, arriving to the point to rely on the luck i don't feel invested. i understand i can skip the farm and buy from the TP, somebody else still has to work his way on a deep gameplay to arrive on the point to just be playing on a slot machine until drop the item to be placed on the TP anyways

[jagged thicket]

I can reply to all this soon but need to sit down and write up some detail

[pallid brook]

there is no rush on the answers cause i know they can take the shape of the game, i am thankful for your investment and in the same time also sorry to make this kind of questions, but for me is important to have an overall understanding on what to be expecting from a game i have been in love with

[brazen rose]

at least from my perspective, this is usually how games, at least the arpgs and mmos I've played, work

you start off with relatively steady progression, but that progression gets slower as you level higher. In WoW, it's artificially created because you are time-locked

In games like Path of Exile or Diablo 2, the amount of time it takes to go from pre-bis to BiS is extremely long, or requires an insane amount of currency to create

just the small charms with life on this build could take months for perfect rolls

you'd never naturally obtain a griffon's eye, you must rely on numbers of people playing the game

here is the lowest odds

grinding act 5 hell baal. Each baal kill maybe 10-15s with around 45s-1 minute travel time, depending on if you have teleport

in between, maybe you are getting some of those small charms, but you'd need very strong rolls from pre-bis to bis

so itemization in games like D2 take a really long time and rely on RNG to get the best items in the game. But they have a much more active community and so trading is much more active

Now, contrastingly, we have been working on making smaller, more incremental bonuses for bosses with essential grinds, like DLP. Adding the trinkets, weapon, and splitting the prism into shards were ways to make the experience, from a loot perspective, more incremental and less "zero or jackpot"

This style of layering value for mobs that require a lot of grinding is something I've told ryan we need to do, and we are just starting to do that now

hope this helps

[tiny scroll]

yep thats what i been saying too happy to see it

[river tendon]

As someone who has farmed all of the artifacts, or at least all of them as of 2024~, in BDO, I really liked the "pity" system they added for some of them, notably the infinite mana and health pot. If unaware: The pots could drop from certain mobs but it was insanely rare and not tradeable (initially, they are now). To assist with this, they eventually added fragments of the pots you could get from the same mobs and you needed 100 of them to craft the pot. There was also a weekly quest that gave you 5 fragments for killing a bunch of the mobs. So you could guaranteed get it eventually, or get very lucky.

All this to say, I agree with the layer value of mobs with huge grinds. Make the journey equally exciting and rewarding as the destination.

[brazen rose]

The issue with pity systems is that it caps the time a game can be played

For a live-service game, where monetization is tied to getting people to play the game, that wouldn't be beneficial

BDO accomplishes this by making you empty your wallets before that happens lol