#Random Flip after a second of flying

445 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

amber vector
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This was what every attempt at flying looked like, I'm not 100% sure what I'm doing wrong but I believe it's the motor configuration, I do not know though. Though also sometimes when I was flying the flip was in a random direction. Please help as I wanna do a proper maden flight

slow nebula
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That's super odd

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does your FC have a blackbox?

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if so, can you provide a log from it?

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also, some specs pls

amber vector
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I think so, let me check. I have a speedybee v3 f4505 stack

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Okay one issue, I have a blackbox but I didn't realize that it was missing the microssd

amber vector
slow nebula
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receiver?

amber vector
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betafpv ELRS lite 2.4ghz

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flat antenna version if that changes it

slow nebula
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did you get anything in the OSD when it happened?

amber vector
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No not from what I was seeing

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ill do another test to get some of that info though, I found an microSSD

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I cant seem to get the blackbox to record onto the ssd

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Yeah I cant figure out why the blackbox is not recording anything

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I have tried setting it to a switch and the only file it ever adds is FREESPAC.E

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Any suggestions for settings I could try to see what the problem is?

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for the flipping issue

slow nebula
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Right now I can't even begin to guess what the issue is

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make sure that nothing is hitting the FC, especially the gyro on the FC @amber vector

amber vector
slow nebula
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the gyro is suuuper sensitive

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intentionally, but also to its own detriment

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that's why FC's tend to be mounted with some sort of flexible isolation

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any sharp movements (FC moving around on screw threads, knocking about, etc) will massively screw with the gyro

amber vector
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This is what it currently looks like

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Idk if that helps anything

slow nebula
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tie up the cables out of the FC's way

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and consider adding that one missing nut lol

amber vector
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Ah yes I'll try that lol

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This is my first 5 inch build if you can't already tell

slow nebula
amber vector
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after adding in a spare nut and securing the FC it now does unwanted backflips

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I would send a video but it is dark here

amber vector
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Yeah, if anyone else see this post, I am still i need of help, the drone will not fly and I have tried everything I can possibly think of

slow nebula
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@amber vector still need the blackbox log...

amber vector
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Do you know why a blackbox may be not recording?

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my blackbox downloads a file to the SSD but the file is just named this:

slow nebula
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can you show a screenshot of the BF configurator's blackbox tab?

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ideally the whole BF configurator window pls

amber vector
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that part is especially weird because the SSD has zero files in it other than the freespace thing

slow nebula
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it looks like it should be recording, odd.

amber vector
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is there a max ssd size maybe?

slow nebula
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just FYI, SD xD

amber vector
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ah you right, you right

slow nebula
amber vector
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i mix em up

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i have exactly 32 gb

slow nebula
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oof, sec

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okay there was a bug in 4.3.1

amber vector
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Here is a picture of the exact sd

20230112_154644.jpg
slow nebula
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but it was supposed to be fixed in 4.3.2...

amber vector
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What issue?

slow nebula
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with SD cards

amber vector
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ahh

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so do I need to downgrade my betaflight?

slow nebula
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wot?

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no, 4.3.2 is the version that fixed it

amber vector
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oh I thought you were saying that the fix didnt work or something

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yeah im not sure whats up

slow nebula
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so, first

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the FREESPAC.E file is what BF creates

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it basically provisions some space like that

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when recording, it shrinks this file in order to free up space for logs

amber vector
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got it

slow nebula
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did you already fly it with the SD card in?

amber vector
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yes

slow nebula
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and was it set in Blackbox tab to "SD Card"?

amber vector
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yes

slow nebula
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then I am super confused

amber vector
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me too lol

slow nebula
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would you happen to have a DVR recording?

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make sure that you have warnings enabled in OSD, and some OSD elements that update frequently too

amber vector
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no, but I could get one

amber vector
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wait nevermind

slow nebula
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just make sure that you have the warnings element in OSD

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and that all of the warnings are enabled

amber vector
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got it

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ill do a flight with the dvr and send it

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its a really terrible dvr but its all I got in terms of that

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I did two test flights but it didnt start recording until about half way through on the first one, but the second one was there all the way

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i suggest zero audio for the best viewing expierence

amber vector
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If you like I could convert it to a different format or something

slow nebula
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@amber vector rough guess - it's either inputs on the radio/receiver being screwy or the gyro being faulty.

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I wanted the BB log to tell you which of the two

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Blackbox: fault is so odd tho

amber vector
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Damn that sounds like I'm gonna have to order new stuff

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Is there a way I can find out which one it is without the blackbox?

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Also I reflashed the FC and I'm gonna try flying again tomorrow to see if anything changes

slow nebula
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the 3D view / gyro graph

amber vector
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It seems to be moving fine during that

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Like all the controls correspond to the right stuff

slow nebula
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also, are you flying angle or acro?

amber vector
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Acro

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I have angle mode bound to a button though

slow nebula
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I was wondering about angle because sometimes gyros fail in a way that only shows in angle

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sometimes banging the drone on the desk can show issues

amber vector
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Do you want me to set it in angle then bang it on my desk?

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Also where would I monitor what that would be messing up

slow nebula
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go into either Setup tab or Sensors tab

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in both you can visually see some of the quad's behaviour

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in Sensors you want to be watching the gyro plot during normal movements (maybe shake it a bit)

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in Setup tab you want to be watching what the drone does when it's shaked around or hit, if the 3D model does some wacky movement

amber vector
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I gotta question

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So I just noticed that 2 of the drone arms wiggle ever so slightly, would the vibrations from that cause the flips?

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also got some news on the gyro

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idk what to make of it but it seems like a major problem

slow nebula
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@amber vector go to CLI tab, send this command: diff all
press Save to file and post it here

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also, send this command: status

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and paste the result here

amber vector
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With or without the controller connected?

slow nebula
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I want to know the config and some other specs, those don't change

slow nebula
amber vector
amber vector
slow nebula
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You seem to have blackbox set on a switch?

amber vector
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correct, because originall I thought the auto blackbox startup was not working

slow nebula
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ah ok

amber vector
slow nebula
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all of that looks okay.. dammit

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I was wondering if you had one of the broken ICM gyro chips, but you have a BMI

amber vector
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Damnn

slow nebula
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which is actually one of the more reliable ones lol

amber vector
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I have no clue why the random flips lol

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You think the arms moving ever so slightly would be the issue?

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Cause I noticed a screw was a little loose and they wiggle ever so slightly

slow nebula
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it's not good, but doubt that that's the problem

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I'll have to refer you to Betaflight discord I think

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idk how to fix your blackbox

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and without it, we won't move on

amber vector
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Right, I can probably find that discord

slow nebula
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imma get the invite, sec

amber vector
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But tomorrow I'll do the test flight with the recently flashed FC, idk maybe that will work a miracle

slow nebula
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hah

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good luck

amber vector
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Yeah idk, I have flown a few quadcopters and drones and gotta say, this is the strangest one yet

slow nebula
# amber vector This was what every attempt at flying looked like, I'm not 100% sure what I'm do...

<@&797250070567059487> sorry for the tag, but I need other ideas here

  1. SD blackbox shows the SD card working when on USB, but in OSD when flying it shows "FAULT", WTF?
  2. The whole "drone suddenly rolls/pitches 90° and crashes" thing
  3. See clips of BF configurator shown just above with Owen's description, WTAF.
    I'm attaching a converted DVR file so you don't have to download it
    For an LOS video see the message I am replying to
dusk gazelle
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That motor twitch sound tells me bad gyro

slow nebula
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That's one of my guesses, but I wanted to confirm that with BB...

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it's a BMI270, those rarely fail tho

dusk gazelle
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That's just me though because I had a drone make that sound but it yaw death rolled

scarlet gust
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@amber vector

sullen venture
slow nebula
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4.3.2, which should've fixed the SD issue, and it's pretty much stock config

scarlet gust
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i saw

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okay what he can do, rotate FC 90°

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that way we can see if its the gyro

slow nebula
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what is confusing to me is that it flies so nicely for a couple seconds before going apeshit

scarlet gust
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blackbox would help sure

sullen venture
slow nebula
scarlet gust
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0%

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we need blackbox 100%

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so first we need to fix that

sullen venture
scarlet gust
slow nebula
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@amber vector when you get around to it, can you send some nice pictures of the build wiring?

scarlet gust
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oh what could be another problem - wire with some current and or vibrations near the gyro

slow nebula
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there was a wire near the gyro

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OP moved that

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problem persists

scarlet gust
slow nebula
sullen venture
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I think we should dig deeper on the fact that the bf preview freaks out when the receiver is connected

slow nebula
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I've seen BF preview freak out, but not conditionally like this

scarlet gust
slow nebula
scarlet gust
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okay what to do:

desolder EVERYTHING, just do ESC

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check everything etc.

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solder on RX and connect

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and lets fix it at that point

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no VTX or anything else messing with stuff

slow nebula
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good idea

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I'd yeet ESC_SENSOR as well

scarlet gust
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or bf isnt picking it up

slow nebula
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but why only when the radio is connected?

scarlet gust
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because the RX is sending noise somewhere

slow nebula
scarlet gust
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check RX connection, what board is in there?

slow nebula
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betafpv ELRS lite 2.4ghz

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inb4 receiver powered from 3.3V pad causing the gyro to crap out when sending telem

scarlet gust
slow nebula
scarlet gust
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okay hear me out: 3v3 rail is overloaded when RX connects

slow nebula
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I'm just predicting

scarlet gust
slow nebula
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it means that I'm writing a prediction, a guess of what's going to happen

scarlet gust
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oh ok

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but IF thats indeed the case - and the gyro isnt getting enough juice anymore

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that would explain it

slow nebula
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it just made me think that maybe the flight time before glitch is somehow tied with the receiver
which made me remember the telemetry ratio on ELRS

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the receiver draws the most current when sending telemetry..

scarlet gust
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we could disable telemetry

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to check if that helps

slow nebula
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would have to be disabled in ELRS LUA

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but yeah

scarlet gust
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feature -RX_PARALLEL_PWM

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what is that?

slow nebula
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that just turns off parallel PWM receiver functionality

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the - at the beginning means off

sullen venture
slow nebula
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ofc

scarlet gust
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remove everything and start from the beginning 😄

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and when the error accurs, remove the last step

fast depot
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That video seems like esc/motor issue to me

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Reason I say that is because motor is dropping on one side

slow nebula
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it moves on an axis, not in a motor direction (diagonal)

scarlet gust
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yes, it looks to me as well as if the quad is actually "correcting" a gyro signal

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so radio -> fly straight. Gyro lags super hard behind and FC got reported from the gyro, that quad is sideways

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if you see the lag in the RX connected video

slow nebula
# scarlet gust and when the error accurs, remove the last step

lol I was rebuilding a friend's PC like that once
it always crapped out at a random step and required several steps back to start working again
eventually found out that the CPU was damaged (flaky PSU) and would crap out when the hardware reserved RAM or something like that got too high, and that would save in the "CMOS" for a while

scarlet gust
slow nebula
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yeah that one had me banging my head against a wall for a good week

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eventually got my hands on another CPU and that fixed it

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that was back in the time when CPU failures were completely unheard of, so warrantying it was yet another story lol

fast depot
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Do you have dvr audio?

slow nebula
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no audio in the DVR

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just non-specific noise

scarlet gust
slow nebula
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lol mistag

scarlet gust
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lol yes

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dont write so fast 😄 my slow hands cant react in time

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btt: start from scratch, one component at a time

slow nebula
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I removed the audio from my re-encoding to preserve your hearing 😄

scarlet gust
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you can fly LOS without VTX

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to eliminate that

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and show every solder step

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show FC, ESC from both sides

restive plinth
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It'll show you if it's running out of cpu or not

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It smells like cpu overload to me

amber vector
scarlet gust
scarlet gust
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what does that show you?

amber vector
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But I'll answer all questions when I am back, I am eager to fix this thing

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Also an update I realized on the second video I sent

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The reason the model and gyro seemed to be acting weird for that was because I was dumb and connecting the drone mid air, which was consistently causing that issue

slow nebula
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kek

amber vector
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But when I connected it on the ground, the way its supposed to be as your guys know, it worked fine

slow nebula
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FYI, the old name for gyro_calib_limit was moron_threshold

amber vector
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That's an accurate name

restive plinth
scarlet gust
amber vector
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Tho I'm not sure what the difference is honestly

sullen venture
sullen venture
rustic vine
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That sounds right, something like that 3Head

sullen venture
weary ivy
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2 problems I see, the ESC looks to be touching the frame. that can cause other issues, like shorting, including the esc signaling, but also just letting the smoke out.. The 3 wires touching the top of the flight controller are going to give the gyro a hard time. That doesn't explain the 90 degree sharp bank, but it's going to mask it in a gyro log, and could knock it out of the sky all by it's self. https://discordapp.com/channels/536623076796923924/1062857895361921024/1062877072449605702

scarlet gust
amber vector
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3.20kHz

scarlet gust
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perfect, thats correct for the BMI gyro

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so we are back to where we dont know whats happening

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please read above and give us the info we need

slow nebula
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everything points back to WTAF

lofty lance
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Is it possibly a loose prop?

slow nebula
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Didn't sound squeaky

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and it rolled pretty much perfectly

scarlet gust
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we cant hear that

slow nebula
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loose prop would cause a diagonal movement

lofty lance
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That's true, though I have had some loose props act in a similar way before

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Still, worth a shout fixing all the mechanical problems right now

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Like the stack not even being squooshed

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And missing a bolt KEKw

slow nebula
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I mean sure, just give the props a couple uga dugas

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it's just a nut, and I mentioned it before I think..

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yeah squish would be useful

lofty lance
slow nebula
lofty lance
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It doesn't look like it's touching the frame to be hondst

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It's just really down low, which isn't necessarily bad, but can cause problems if the bottom plate cracks

slow nebula
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if the bottom plate cracks
then you have worse problems than the ESC being too close >.>

lofty lance
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If I were him this what I would do :

  1. Take stack out so you're left with screws, and add a nut in-between esc and bottom plate, should give better resonance, and lift the stack slightly

  2. Desolder the motors and inspect the traces - likely nothing there but if for some reason somehow something shorted a motor pad that might be your issue, and clean the flux

  3. Resolder motor pads and re assemble stack, this time adding some squish onto the stack and ESC

  4. Try and replicate the issue with black box logging

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I get the feeling that it may be a combination of the stack being so loose that it may have shifted enough from vibrations to touch the bottom plate - however unlikely it may be it's still possible with how low it is and untightened

slow nebula
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if hard stuff is hitting hard stuff then the drone will be hardly flyable

lofty lance
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which is what doesn't make sense

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those 4 steps there aren't a fix necessarily, but more of a proper build setup

slow nebula
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I'm still wondering a bit about a possible input corruption or something like that

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but for that we need to see a bb log 😦

lofty lance
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If we can eliminate all mechanical factors first, then we know it's software and potentially radio

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Man this is a fun one, there's a lot of things it could be but there's no direct clues

amber vector
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This how high the board is from the frame

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And currently I'm having the betaflight people see if they can fix the blackbox issue, so I will keep you guys updated with the info I have

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I mean the betaflight discord btw, I have not sent it into a repair place but I'm really considering trying to find someone to look at this

weary ivy
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I don't know what country you are in, but the cost of the bare flight controller is $41, and most repair places would charge that much just to look at it. Do you have another quad you can swap flight controllers with?

amber vector
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I am located in the US, but unfortunately this is my only FC

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unless if a tiny hawk 2 freestyle counts

lofty lance
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Also did you do what I suggested? With the nut under the esc

scarlet gust
lofty lance
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I'm leaning to it being it being mechanical with how suddenly it flipped that way

scarlet gust
lofty lance
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I watched the first one

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It hovered fine at first then suddenly flipped to one side

scarlet gust
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if the mechanical problem you want to eliminate, it would twitch and freak out right away

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not fly 3 seconds perfect and than just turn right

lofty lance
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Unless it's at higher frequencies , which is actually still very low

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But we should try to eliminate all variables possible first

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It's most likely software but on the miniscule chance it's mechanical, it's still a good idea

scarlet gust
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if you would have read the BMI gyro link, you would have seen a much more possible cause of this problem

lofty lance
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right that part kind of went over my head, I'll take a look at that now before anything else

scarlet gust
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but to confirm this, we need black box - and blackbox is broken

lofty lance
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I actually may know how to fix his configurator

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@amber vector when you go to the presets tab and try to apply a preset, does it just do nothing and kind of freeze?

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If so, clean re install, and maybe get the new configurator

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Clear your SD card and make sure it's the correct format, and to be sure just leave black box always on

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Do a quick arm and hover, see if it still does it, and if it does plug it in and check to see if you can enter in Mass storage mode

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If you can't do that, I'm more leaning to FC having an issue somewhere on the actual board rather than it being some obscure setting on bf

amber vector
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Okay I will try this tomorrow as its super late and I cannot fly

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but i will let you know asap tomorrow

amber vector
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I got a question for the battery experts

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I just did another test flight and the whole random-movenment that usually results in a flip, still happened

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but not to the same degree as earlier

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like I was actually able to recover it, still very uncontrollable, but I was able to keep it in the air for a bit

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The question is would using only the external battery slot on the radiomaster zorro cause weird transmitter related issues due to not receiving enough power or something?

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The battery im using seems to have enough voltage with it being a 7.4v lipo battery while the zorro normally uses 2 3.7v 18350 batteries that are located internally

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Sorry for the super late test, work got in the way

weary ivy
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Nope. that should make no difference whatsoever. You can test that by opening up the receiver tab in betaflight with your radio on, and see exactly what signals your drone is receiving from the radio.

amber vector
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ah then idk, but maybe what that joshua person said will work

amber vector
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good news!

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updated betaflight

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and now the blackbox works

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will test tomorrow with external video and will send here

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thank you for the patience guys, you have all been extremely helpful

slow nebula
amber vector
lofty lance
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Called it

amber vector
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DVR footage coming soon

amber vector
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Im no expert, but it seems like input delay. I am not sure though

ember dock
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I feel like theres something wrong with this log.

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I've only got 4 seconds, and yeah it looks like there may be issues.

image.png
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Oh, I see there were only 4 seconds of flight.

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Not running OSD...

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Is this blackbox the same as from the video posted?

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Just checking if the maximum crank on pitch right before disarming is consistent with the inputs. Although the quad reacted incorrectly nonetheless.

image.png
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Also I don't want to look like I'm always blaming feedforward, but every time your quad maxes out motors in the wrong direction it is associated with a feedforward spike. So let's turn that off first

image.png
amber vector
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what is feedforward?

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also I think it should be the right log, but I could check

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It should be the latest one as I turned off the drone right after

amber vector
ember dock
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do you know how to get to the pid tuning page?

amber vector
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yes

ember dock
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is expert mode turned on?

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should be top right, a tiny little switch

amber vector
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should it be on?

ember dock
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yeah, turn that boy on

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and then some more sliders should pop up

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one of them is stick tracking (and should also be labeled feedforward) slide that baby to 0

amber vector
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some are just test arms, so they dont have any actual data tho

amber vector
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should I do a test flight like that to see if it fixes anything?

ember dock
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probably won't, but it would give me data that i'd be better at reading

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so i'd like a flight with FF at 0 🙏

amber vector
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which one?

Capture.PNG
ember dock
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Stick response (FF Gains)

amber vector
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got it

ember dock
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it's my thought that it's overreacting to small twitches in your sticks and making the quad confused

amber vector
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hmm, is that something I will need to replace the FC in order to fix?

ember dock
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I hope not

amber vector
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Me too lol

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okay will be back with dvr+log

amber vector
ember dock
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I don't see that motor maxing out stuff anymroe

amber vector
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Is that good?

ember dock
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helps me read it

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Okay, so by the blackbox, you commanded full right stick until the drone was almost completely upside down and then stopped

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It's weird and the gyro isn't following that closely but it looks like it's following

image.png
amber vector
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Hm

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But I swear I didnt

ember dock
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Did you command any stick

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Right. Can you recalibrate your transmitter

amber vector
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Maybe? I'm not sure how

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I have the radiomaster zorro

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Also when I move the sticks in betaflight, it seems to correspond to the right stuff

ember dock
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this is what your quad is seeing

image.png
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it's seeing you pull the stick all the way to the right and is doing the same

ember dock
amber vector
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I see, it seems like even moving it a tiny bit rn it causes the stick to shoot to the extremes

amber vector
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It works!

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Now it Flys well!!

amber vector
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Thank you guys for the help! You all have been incredibly helpful and this experience has been a wonderful introduction into this hobby, I cannot express how thankful I am, I have been wanting to fly this drone since I ordered the parts

ember dock
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:)

ember dock
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Issue wasn't with the quad at all, I see.

amber vector
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Yes, luckily, as I really didn't wanna have to order a new FC or ESC

scarlet gust
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another idea: can you switch your RX to a other UART?

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this could be a timer issue, where the RX cant talk fast enough with the FC

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just a wild thought i had when you came up with the "lag problem"

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and turning off FF doesnt solve the issue, it freaking around is more of a symptom - it can make things better, but the underlying issue is still there

scarlet gust
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as i am stupid and didnt read all - the problem was, that your radio wasnt calibrated? @amber vector

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@ember dock

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ffs - thats such a easy to miss thing -.- i read all now and yes this was the case - ffs nobody though about that holy smokes

slow nebula
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that's why I wanted the blackbox the whole time @scarlet gust 😄

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you can see RC traces in the blackbox log xD

scarlet gust
slow nebula
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yeah

scarlet gust
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you are right, if we would had the indication, that his sticks were all over the place

ember dock
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It was present in the first one, but I saw the motors maxing out and had to know if it was him or the quad

slow nebula
scarlet gust
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but yes, it looked like the quad was reacting to a movement command - that was the strange part

restive plinth
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Has anyone run tasks in cli yet to comfirm

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I know it's really unlikely but it'd only take like 5 seconds to do & I've had a tinyhawk do this same crap before when cpu was too overloaded

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It very well might just be a defective gyro too though I've also seen this as well

amber vector
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What stuff would you need me to run?