Graphics General

[white willow]

cuz underwater vol fog appears to always be rendered

[brave star]

wish it was that simple for me

[tribal trail]

i never had issues with water

[white willow]

as i said it only happened once and it was while i was messing with reflection quality

i had reflections completely off, then turned them back to ultra

and it broke it

briefly

[brave star]

so you think this looks fine

[white willow]

thats not broken as there are waves and reflections

[brave star]

right.

[white willow]

if the water was bugged, it wouldnt have waves or reflections

[brave star]

just looks alot more transparent than the water in video I linked

[white willow]

heres the difference

[tribal trail]

it's not broken? it's just that the water in deferred doesn't have refraction, only the reflections on it are wavy, not what's underneath

[white willow]

that video is a small lake

this is an open river/ocean

its gonna look different

[brave star]

let me find a small lake lol

[white willow]

and that lake had the sun shining on it

theres no sun reflecting here

[brave star]

prizma sure is pretty

[tribal trail]

the deeper the water, the less transparent the water is

[tribal trail]

also "deferred doesn't have refraction, only the reflections on it are wavy, not what's underneath"

[brave star]

gotcha

[tribal trail]

wait for mojang to add refraction, it will look better

[pale urchin]

Of course, can't expect it to look like raytraced refractions

Most likely just the basic screen warping kind.

[brave star]

different packs can set what color the water is right

[white willow]

yes

[brave star]

because this is too blue

lol

[tribal trail]

I didn't mean rt refraction, i meant non rt refraction that will make things underwater wavy

[brave star]

yall know any good packs

that probably have less blue water

[tribal trail]

it will make waves better and less flat

[white willow]

i can send you mine, i dont think the water is super blue

[tribal trail]

oh yes, water in my pack is very blue haha

[white willow]

i forgor

[brave star]

ill check it out

mind sending a link

[white willow]

i think i can send this here

[brave star]

or that

[white willow]

its not updated on mcpedl yet

[brave star]

sneak peak, cool

[white willow]

i just updated it like less than an hour ago lol

its public in my discord, just not on mcpedl yet

[brave star]

still blue lol

you said less blue, ik

[white willow]

oh well

im pretty sure like none of our packs have not blue water

i think all of us use blue water

cuz it just looks better

[brave star]

popular opinion ig

[white willow]

if someone else here doesnt use blue water feel free to chime in but last i knew its mostly blue

[white willow]

and the damn bug is here

cool

[brave star]

is it?

[white willow]

yes

theres waves or reflections

[tribal trail]

tbh I don't even think you can make water that's green and not almost black

[white willow]

that too

[white willow]

i guess it just wasnt super visible

i also forgot i have modified reflection configs

regular SSR has poor range

[brave star]

maybe I can edit the shader to my liking

[brave star]

nicee

[white willow]

im thinking of increasing the intensity a little. it feels too calm

[white willow]

Suggestion time fog edition: been discussing some ideas on how to improve fog with some people and we came to a general conclusion. The way fog is currently handled is based on render distance and shadow maps. Players on 8 render distance have significantly lower fog levels than someone on 24 resulting in less visible sunrays for those players. A solution we thought of was just capping the fog at the max shadow map distance (since light rays are based off the shadows). There's realistically no reason to render fog beyond that point and also could save up some performance in the long run. This would also improve sun rays on lower render distances resulting in higher quality gameplay for those on lower end devices. This would also reduce that "smog effect" people talk about as the distance is far more clear.

[white willow]

If anyone has other ideas and would like to add onto this feel free. This to me is a good discussion to have and could possibly bring ideas to the devs (if they haven't though of it already)

[sonic canopy]

Perhaps something can be done with "cancelling out" the fog, by removing a portion that starts at camera and moves along camera ray for the distance, equal to distance from camera to water surface

[tribal trail]

my little dream are keyframes for fog density, it would allow so many cool things 🥺

[sonic canopy]

The issue is that fog "volume" that's being drawn, is limited in size and is the only source of fog. It would be better if they can analytically extend it to infinity as a fallback, so that when drawing objects that are outside of the volume, they can apply fog volume + analytically compute additional missing fog in-between the object and volume boundary

[sonic canopy]

Replying to this ^

[pale urchin]

@vernal sleet So you're on Xbox?

[vernal sleet]

Yes!

Xbox Series S

[pale urchin]

In Minecraft preview?

[vernal sleet]

I have the preview yes

[vernal sleet]

Okay so I got luminous dreams working, it’s just super dark

[white willow]

you will have to set the brightness to the suggested brightness

you can find that in the deferred settings

[viscid moth]

do you guys think it is wise from a perf perspective to add GI to deferred

[white willow]

Perf perspective? No. Especially not on mobile devices

Although I feel like SSGI could be fine if done right

GI in general can be quite the performance monster though

[sonic canopy]

Depends on technique, when I implemented LPV it was running about as fast as vanilla deferred

[quick beacon]

Just hire Veka at this point

[sonic canopy]

I wouldn't mind adding shader support for free

[white willow]

Definitely. I think though when most people ask about GI, they mean SSGI which is quite intensive

As much as I'd love it in deferred, I don't see it being all that probable

[sonic canopy]

There are also faster ways yo do ssgi

[white willow]

True, there's always more efficient ways to do anything

[vague shoal]

What does gi do again?

[pale urchin]

Allows non point light stuff to light other stuff up

Think lava lighting the nether ceiling

[vague shoal]

Ah

[pale urchin]

Or sunlight bouncing off coloured wool on to corners of a room, spilling its colours.

[vague shoal]

That would be cool to have in deferred

[white willow]

It would be but yo phone will nuke itself

Unless they make the GI ranges really really short

[pale urchin]

There's always the option to disable it on phones. Like you can with reflections and volumetric fog

[white willow]

Couple examples of GI

[white willow]

True

[pale urchin]

The lava one is the best example

[proud pike]

I hope they do add it

[quasi trench]

we need GI 😩

[sonic canopy]

We need shredders

[proud pike]

:o

[vague shoal]

we need cloud

[faint snow]

yes

data driven clouds next?

😍🤑

[white willow]

Likely we will be getting the rest of the water stuff

Not in tomorrows preview but yk

[faint snow]

I'm manifesting clouds rn with crystals and various candles in my closet

Expect them to work but not being able to be stylized enough

🤤🤤🤤

[sonic canopy]

The rest?

[sonic canopy]

Features that were mentioned on qna:

• Color grading (contrast, saturation, gain, offset and split-tone grading)
• Water lighting + movement (caustics, noise, volumetric rays (?), reflections, refractions (maybe Snell's window), "Water will operate on properties like how much algae is present.")
• Subsurface scattering
• Reflections (SSR + IBL)
• PBR Texture Set support for Items and particles.

I suppose all that's left is refraction, caustics and maybe animated volumetric rays

[tribal trail]

refraction is the top thing I'm waiting for

[sonic canopy]

Oh they also need to fix water fog

[sonic canopy]

That would be nice. QnA mentioned that there are no plans for clouds, but who knows, plans can change

[vague shoal]

Well they can’t just leave how clouds look right now 💀

[sonic canopy]

they could

[vague shoal]

Buh

[oak thicket]

Current clouds don’t fit in

They’re ugly imo

If deferred in its final form is going to look like it looks right now then Java players will still see bedrock as some crappy mobile copy of original game

[tribal trail]

it won't be that tragic, but I hope for some nice clouds

[tribal trail]

they can do anything, even remove deferred

(sorry veka, it was not to you)

[vague shoal]

Deferred in final form will probably look something like mc legends graphics

[oak thicket]

Deferred isn’t that bad but compared to Java shaders it’s mid at most. Point lights look way better than in Java imo

Outdoor is mid but indoor is awesome

[vague shoal]

But with more customization and a little more features

[oak thicket]

lmao no

[tribal trail]

I wouldn't be so sure

[vague shoal]

Well deferred is ported from mc legends

According to miclee

[tribal trail]

If that were the case, it would start to look like this by now

[vague shoal]

Legends has waving foliage so maybe we will get waving foliage

[vague shoal]

What happened to the sun

[silent zealot]

Eddy is true, they borrowed some deferred tech from Legends

[vague shoal]

💀

[tribal trail]

just because they are porting some things from mc legends doesn't mean it'll look like that/they want it to look like mc legends

it seems to me that stylistically they are aiming for something a bit like mcrtx

this just looks like mcrtx 🤷‍♀️

[oak thicket]

Damn the sky definitely needs to be improved

[tribal trail]

it's a bit better now

still working on it

[vague shoal]

True but the sky don’t look that good and the clouds too

[sonic canopy]

Clouds don't look that good in MCRTX either

[long ruin]

[tribal trail]

rtx sky was shitty

[sonic canopy]

Maybe they are aiming for full visual parity with RTX 🙃

[tribal trail]

God no

[oak thicket]

That’s why they added point light shadows

[tribal trail]

I think I'll start praying

[vague shoal]

We already have better looking water then rtx

[oak thicket]

No

[vague shoal]

Rtx water is too flat

[oak thicket]

Doesn’t matter lmao

[vague shoal]

Well it still didn’t have waves

But deferred does

[oak thicket]

Waves aren’t everything

Rtx water is superior

[tribal trail]

water waves are optional and disabled by default

[vague shoal]

True but you still couldn’t have good waves in rtx packs cause you could barely see them

Well anyway I don’t think mojang is just gonna leave clouds as it is rn cause they don’t want what happened to rtx

[white willow]

RTX water was great because you could use absorption to tint it any color

As well as have nicely customizable fog

I do think though deferred water is better

Not even cuz of waves

The only real thing it has are raytraced refractions

And I guess how clear the water is

[pale urchin]

Can't the water be made clearer by decreasing the water's parameters?

[white willow]

I believe so yea

[tribal trail]

when i said "it seems to me that stylistically they are aiming for something a bit like mcrtx" I meant deferred in its raw look without any changes

[tribal trail]

YES!!! i loved that

[vague shoal]

Ah

[white willow]

I did as well. I used to have different water colors per biome. I still do but they are mostly different shades of blue. I think the new color customization has huge potential I just feel the way the current values scale is so strong. And the old method allowed per biome. We need per biome support as well

[vague shoal]

I wonder if they’ll do anything with cubemaps in deferred

[tribal trail]

you sure?

[sonic canopy]

Also caustics and more realistic absorption

[pale urchin]

It looks really close

[oak thicket]

Yep I’m sure

[tribal trail]

why caustics?

[sonic canopy]

Because deferred doesn't have that (yet) and when it will, it'll be lower resolution compared to RTX

[tribal trail]

oh

[quick beacon]

I like this more for some reason.

[tribal trail]

Thank you, I wanted both versions to have a similar water color

for me rtx wins only underwater

only benefit of rtx water for me is rt refraction 🤷‍♀️

forgot how good glass is in rtx 🥹

[tribal trail]

color or texture?

[quick beacon]

Texture

color too.

[sonic canopy]

Yeah RTX is just more realistic, for example in deferred this darker part shouldn't be visible here

[tribal trail]

it's cave

[tribal trail]

hmm

would be funny if they add option to make water texture visible

[oak thicket]

I would take that instead of waves

[tribal trail]

i don't really like vanilla water texture, if that could be optional that would be great

[white willow]

You can with roughness

As I had vanilla texture on mine for a bit

[tribal trail]

texture not roughness

[safe urchin]

Imagine they just use ray tracing clouds

[vague shoal]

😭

[safe urchin]

rt clouds

it looks default but with like sss around it

[vague shoal]

Volumetric clouds in deferred please 🙏

[tribal trail]

Volumetric clouds still can have vanilla shape

[vague shoal]

True but it can still make them look better

[oak thicket]

Who knows maybe they will add new features after release of deferred

GI, volumetric clouds waving foliage

[vague shoal]

They want a full feature set first before they do optimization

I don’t think we will get new features after deferred releases except very small features

Or just bug fixes

I’d say we will see big market place studios create pbr packs or maps with deferred applied

[tribal trail]

Same

[viscid moth]

glow lichen having some issues

[quasi trench]

block of lichen when

[blazing whale]

Hmm bug

[long ruin]

Clouds in RTX have been bugged for a while

[white willow]

Yeah they've been broken for a long time

[tribal trail]

Same with amethyst

[viscid moth]

yeah

also with redstone torchs

anything that is 2.5 d

but i guess redstone torch is getting updated very soon

[white willow]

Sadge

Idk how much I like the new model

This is like the piston sound

[viscid moth]

i like it

[white willow]

Some are gonna like it, some are gonna hate it

[viscid moth]

i don't like the red glow/bloom around it tho
it's kinda funky

i do like the not using of the original torch texture

[quick beacon]

Notch likes the new redstone torch btw.

[white willow]

That's fair. Idk. Is it in the new Java snapshot cuz I may see how I feel about it in game

I've only seen pictures and I don't currently enjoy the design too much

Hm

Yk what maybe it's not that terrible

[sonic canopy]

I like it

[quick beacon]

It's better.

[viscid moth]

I think the cube should be a bit bigger

[white willow]

Hm wondering what would be a good way to do the emission for this

Have the inside less bright and outside more, or do it the other way

I guess I'll figure that out when we have it

[tribal trail]

It is

[tribal trail]

It's tragic

it violates human rights

and it's definitely violating my mental health

[white willow]

This texture is as I said like the piston sound, been around for so long that changing it is kinda... wrong

It'll take adjustment and likely won't get changed back like the piston did so

[tribal trail]

I like changing everything that is old, it just doesn't look good

It's not aesthetic

It's not giving

[oak thicket]

Approved by notch

[tribal trail]

It's giving aliexpress, shein vibe

[tribal trail]

money made him have no taste

money or dr-

[hollow timber]

I think it could look better if they removed the corners of the larger cube

feels too chunky rn

[graceful iron]

The culling is gonna break RTX packs

Bruh

[tribal trail]

one bug here or there won't make a difference anymore

[graceful iron]

True

It is rather annoying still

[unreal venture]

RTX is dead pretty much, they don't care to fix it since they are working on deferred

[viscid moth]

it's the damn slime model

the inner cube needs to be more red

[graceful iron]

nuh uhhh

It still has some hope.

maybe…

[tribal trail]

who are you trying to fool?

[graceful iron]

me

[tribal trail]

now hush little baby dont you cry

[graceful iron]

[viscid moth]

Rtx might be one of them rare occurences where features turn to bug

[oak thicket]

Mojang should add coloured light imo

[graceful iron]

Deferred?

[tribal trail]

are you color blind?

last time I checked, deferred has colored light

[proud pike]

i think they specifically meant floodfill-esque coloured lighting

[remote tree]

I implemented backface culling into BetterRTX to fix spectator mode so in theory it should work fine

[graceful iron]

Oh nice

BetterRTX bug fixes are always nice

(Also you said “blackface” instead of backface) fixed now

[tribal trail]

sss in betterrtx when? 🥺 🙏

[graceful iron]

I think some of us talked about this yesterday

[tribal trail]

i saw that too

[white willow]

Now that's a typo 💀

[oak thicket]

I meant coloured lights to vanilla

[tribal trail]

ooooooooooooooh

[oak thicket]

Also

Don’t you think what you said was a bit disrespectful

[tribal trail]

I'm sorry!! I didn't want it to sound like that :c

[oak thicket]

Alright

👌

[long ruin]

that's crazy

[fathom lynx]

If my pc can't turn on experimental renderdragon features does it mean it will never be able to run shaders on bedrock even when shaders come to bedrock officially?

because I can run Java shaders just fine? why can't I try bedrock experimental shaders

[vague shoal]

Show us why you can’t turn on the experimental feature

[white willow]

Java shaders use OpenGL which has very minimal GPU restrictions. Deferred needs support for direct X 12 to work. Which has quite a good number of gpu restrictions

Running Minecraft with deferred rendering is less of oh this is a graphics mod. No this is like going to have minimum and recommended specs and stuff much like an actual game

And you will be locked out of it without meeting requirements

Just like getting a modern game with a bad pc, the game will either refuse to launch or run absolutely awful

[viscid moth]

i mean like an intended feature or bug that's being saved by community
but yeah you and betterrtx is awesome

[lone sluice]

if deferred rendering is so good why cant i run it on my gtx 660 smhing my heading 😒

[white willow]

totally Real

[rustic condor]

Hey. I wanted to aska question, but is vsync called twice in Bedrock edition?

I will send a bug report if it's true, or if my eyes are just tricking me.

I noticed when setting gfx_vsync to 0, it's still waiting for a vertical refresh, but when it's set to 1, it is presumably doing it twice(?)

[proud pike]

Do you have vsync turned off from your GPU's driver settings and vsync in mc does cap your fps to half your screen's refresh rate if it's turned on

[proud pike]

Unsupported GPU

[rustic condor]

im on windows mate aven't a clue how to do that

[proud pike]

What GPU do you have

[rustic condor]

i wiped my freebsd install (and my windows one) on accident thanks to diskpart a few days ago so this is a pretty fresh win10 install

rx580

[proud pike]

Doesn't matter here

[rustic condor]

i mean i haven't installed amd's fancy drivers or whatever

[proud pike]

Open up AMD's adrenaline software

[rustic condor]

dont have that

[proud pike]

Oh

Hmm

[rustic condor]

cant u turn off vsync with dwm or whatever mincrosofts window manager is called

[proud pike]

Not here

[rustic condor]

well, turning gfx_vsync to 0 definitely makes it feel better

[proud pike]

If you don't have the driver for the GPU then you probably don't have vsync turned on either way

[rustic condor]

i can test other programs without vsync like quake live or minetest and there is no vsync

[proud pike]

That's the most you can do to turn off vsync

[rustic condor]

i have the driver just not the software for it

amd's drivers on windows blow hard

[proud pike]

Yeah that's fine, you don't exactly need the other stuff

[rustic condor]

Ok, but now we are back on point one. Is vsync being called twice if it's set to 1 (default)?

because it sure feels slower than most vsync games i've played regardless, even with the new increased input delay thingy

[proud pike]

Yes

[rustic condor]

Nuts

[proud pike]

2nd half of this message

[rustic condor]

can u reword that?

oh

..half my screens refresh rate?

makes no sense lad

if it was half then it would be 30 fps

Its fine if you don't know, i'll just send a bug report

[proud pike]

Only happens for high refresh rate screens

If I have vsync turned on my fps is locked at 72, half of my 144hz screen

[rustic condor]

Lol

yeah something is done broken

[proud pike]

I've seen this happen for 120hz screens too

But 60hz seems to be unaffected

[rustic condor]

i mean some monitors might not be able to keep the clock up to par enough to refresh smoothly, but I don't own a high refresh rate monitor so I can't speak much further

[proud pike]

That has nothing to do with this fps cap

[rustic condor]

aware

im speculating

[proud pike]

My GPU is more than enough to run mc at 1000 fps

:p

[rustic condor]

My GPU can

[proud pike]

Just about anything can

[rustic condor]

can a can of canned amd can a fast

cheers bro ill send the report

[proud pike]

Sure

[rustic condor]

appreciate the help

[proud pike]

[sonic canopy]

Apparently something interesting in terms of graphics is being worked on in Java version. This here is a visualisation of chunk culling octree that was added in todays snapshot (screenshot from shaderlabs)

[quick beacon]

chunk culling? what's that

[sonic canopy]

Not rendering chunks that aren't visible

I.e. behind you

[quick beacon]

That's a good change

[pale urchin]

Huh so now it's more granualar than before

[sonic canopy]

There are also other, more technical changes to core shaders and the entire graphics engine. It's weird how we also have some similar unexplained graphics changes on bedrock 👀

1.22 - Super Duper Shaders Update? One can only dream 😔

[pale urchin]

So you're thinking both editions are getting optimized?

[sonic canopy]

I'm thinking something cool might be getting worked on, for both versions

[quick beacon]

Java getting official shader support.

[pale urchin]

Doesn't it already have that?

[quick beacon]

I mean the shaders you get with Iris.

[vague shoal]

Coincidence?

Imagine 1.22 is the graphics update

Both editions are getting graphics changes

[quick beacon]

iirc You can already modify some shaders in vanilla java

[vague shoal]

Yes

[vague shoal]

It could be possible

Imagine 2 updates get announced

One is for structures and mobs

And the other one is for graphics

Like buzzy bees and the nether update

[white willow]

Plants and vines are now glowing until you’re really close to them

[quick beacon]

Add-On name?

😛

[white willow]

And this reflection issue is even worse than before

[white willow]

I think it’s like on bedrock better or something

[white willow]

There’s now multiple points of weird "sunspots" (that’s what I’m calling these)

There used to only be one

[white willow]

I fixed this

[graceful iron]

Awesome

bedrock’s preview was kinda lame today

no cool graphics updates

[sonic canopy]

Fixing ssr bug on android was cool

[graceful iron]

I suppose so

I don’t have any android devices tho

From a pack maker standpoint the preview was lame tho

[crude flare]

dyable thing is cool imo

[white willow]

Wish we got the minecart thingy in bedrock

[white willow]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1191960243899474022/1276413816498032653/2024-08-23_01-33-15.mp4?ex=66c97080&is=66c81f00&hm=b796950d21ad3fc60c3bbf60e36c8dcfbfa108b477ffb9ea26cda41dc16f25c7&

Welp someone (not me) found a fix for not only the warden heartbeat animation but the animated bioluminescencent layer too

And yes this also works with deferred

But I have zero idea what did. None of it makes sense

I looked at the files

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/704786189944881203/1276414980547153960/2024-08-23_01-37-40.mp4?ex=66c97196&is=66c82016&hm=45b22db037ed426891ca1828ff9eb6a5a8eddaa43b01ff0c03470aef7452d0b4&

Madlad had a fix before this so this isn't the first time it's been fixed

[viscid moth]

could you give me like a link/source to the solution

[white willow]

Idek what the solution is. Not sure if I can send you the files I have

[viscid moth]

if you can't send it here
pls send it in the dms

[tribal trail]

Oh

i know how it was done

[remote tree]

May I have a look at the files that were sent to you as well?

[white willow]

Yea

[viscid moth]

how do i fix it

i forgot

[jagged badge]

The blue? Reduce your Rayleigh scattering value. I have found that 1–1.33 is sufficient

[viscid moth]

Okay thank you very much

[timber charm]

What is causing this banding on the shadows?

[white willow]

Shadow acne

Common issues with shadow maps

It's tied to the shadow bias and stuff

[timber charm]

Oh, I see. I'm trying out your pack with my addon. I like the tone mapping

[white willow]

Well thank you!

I just redid all the tonemapping recently, I'm very happy with it

[timber charm]

Did you use the new Editor feature?

[white willow]

Yea, I did it like half and half. I did the majority of it in the editor. Then in game after running around and seeing how I felt about it I made small adjustments. Thankfully color grading doesn't need a full world reload to apply

[timber charm]

I suspect this is a common request, but I'd like to find some settings similar to vanilla RTX so I can transition into deferred rendering. The tone mapping, in particular

[white willow]

Hmm. First time I've seen it tbh

But I think that would be fairly simple to replicate

I think deferreds default tonemapping is very similar

[timber charm]

Yeah, I saw that I could even use ACES

[sonic canopy]

Did some tests with a bunch of tonemapperss, and Reinhard seems to be the one that resembles BRTX tonemap the closest

[graceful iron]

Something about deferred feels so uncanny.

might be the sky for me tbh

[timber charm]

Yeah, I agree

Deferred rendering has gotten a lot better though

[raw pendant]

level of detail not working properly with pbr whats new

[raw pendant]

this is shadow acne

do you want a fixed shadow config?

idc im sending it anyway

[timber charm]

Do it!

[raw pendant]

use high preset

this is the one i optimised

oh yeah

low now disables shadows entirely

if u wanted that

my optimised settings looks and runs better than ultra shadows

point light shadows are impossible for me to fully fix

unless you want insane bias

[timber charm]

wdym?

[raw pendant]

point light shadows are extremely poor on performance and it would either be having lots of terrible point light shadows covered in acne or increase the resolution dramatically which means you can have less before performance tanks

the game is placing a virtual camera and taking a 360 degree image from the perspective of every light source

u see the problem?

[timber charm]

Oh, interesting. That add-on in my screenshot adds like 800+ point light colors. Sounds like it might be a bad idea then?

Or will it not matter much, since it's just defining colors?

[raw pendant]

point light quality or color doesnt affect performance of shadows

point shadow cost is directly proportional to the resolution of them, framerate at which the shadows update, and amount

so 50 point light shadows with ur addon will perform the same as without

@timber charm

there are way mojang can optimise this, such as shadow caching

do not update the shadow if surroundings dont change, simple

and the option to exclude certain geometry from shadows

oh yeah! i got an improved point light config aswell

you now have more granularity over the distance and quality of point light handling

put this in the renderer folder in the game files itself. youll need a version switcher or iobit to do it

increasing the lights per cluster from 50 to a higher value around 100 removes almost all the blocky artifacts you see from point lights in general gameplay

if anyone wants to try to improve on it further go ahead!

improved reflection config, all you need is medium, ive made it so low setting now doesnt have ssr but keeps the sky reflection

so medium if u want the entire effect, low for increased perf when needed

[raw pendant]

my ability to kill the chat is unmatched

[long ruin]

[white willow]

Also not a whole lot of stuff worth discussing rn

[grim shale]

chat is always in a superposition of dead and alive, you never know when the next message will appear

[silent zealot]

Hi Matt

[proud pike]

a little something to discuss from the 1.16 beta version of Minecraft RTX.

they had so many things planned/scrapped during the development of SDGP/RTX

wonder if all this will eventually make its way to Deferred.

heightmaps being broken was also unexpected, though its a given with how old this version of RTX is

[quick beacon]

So RTX could've been much much more if they were allowed to keep working on it? These "settings" by itself would've made RTX look better? RTX is cool, but it just has a lot of bugs.

[proud pike]

i dont think these settings were ever meant for RTX as they are completely non functional with the build of RTX in 1.16 beta

[quick beacon]

Oooh, interesting.

[proud pike]

they are likely remenants from SDGP's development

from what i can gather

[quick beacon]

That would make more sense.

[proud pike]

also, Principal Graphics Engineer - Minecraft
job listing for mojang's Redmond, Washington studio
https://jobs.careers.microsoft.com/global/en/job/1761514/Principal-Graphics-Engineer---Minecraft

[quick beacon]

It's pretty clear they RTX's development started after they cancelled SDGP? If so, it would lead me to believe that SDGP was cancelled in favor for the NVIDIA collaboration. Just a theory though.

[proud pike]

a lot of other factors led to the cancellation of SDGP

[quick beacon]

I know one had to do with devices, like mobile.

[proud pike]

yep

[quick beacon]

But I would not say that Deferred is SDGP. Feels wrong to give Deferred that title, lol.

[sonic canopy]

Also recently posted a bunch of other positions, like server and software engineers... what are they cooking? 👀

[long ruin]

so much

[proud pike]

it isnt, but im hoping that everything that was planned for SDGP eventually makes its way to deferred

[proud pike]

let them cook

[white willow]

Damn positions that I'm not studying for 😅

Game designer moment

Although I'm trying to branch off to other things

At least learn them at surface level

[sonic canopy]

I'm studying for bachelor engineering of IT, but want to specialise into computer graphics eventually (maybe for masters degree)

[white willow]

I'm going towards a bachelors in game design. Only got a little bit left till I'm done with associates. Which feels insane for me to even say

Realizing I have that in March... that's where did time go 😭

I will say too, everything I've learned working with RTX and deferred (texture wise) has really shown in other projects. Couldn't be happier

[vague shoal]

Holy skibidi

Hopefully these features will make its way into deferred

[white willow]

These were also found in the version RTX released in too

[vague shoal]

What if rtx pipeline was actually just a dumbed down version of sdgp

[white willow]

Likely not

SDGP used rasterization. RTX uses... well raytracing. Things wouldn't translate over perfectly

And would have to be redone anyway

[vague shoal]

@white willow is cloud render normals basically just custom clouds?

In the first screenshot

[white willow]

No

That just means clouds had normalmaps

That would be interesting to see in deferred

Cloud PBR?????

[proud pike]

real

[sonic canopy]

Ah yes, finally, metallic clouds

[proud pike]

[vague shoal]

What about fluffy clouds

[pale urchin]

Not even the trailer showed anything like that 🤔

[vague shoal]

☹️

[long ruin]

I don't think fluffy clouds like that would fit into the blocky aesthetic of the game

Probably why RTX only had blocky clouds

[white willow]

Clouds like this are perfect

They are puffy and fluffy but resemble the style

[long ruin]

True

[tribal trail]

it was expected because mojang changed pbr format

[proud pike]

i was using quite an old rtx pack but that makes sense

[remote tree]

Try setting padding in terrain_texture.json to 1 instead of 0

[proud pike]

will give it a shot

[unreal venture]

The Nvidia RTX collab was a mistake for Minecraft

[red dust]

*Cookin Nvidia

[forest lark]

Hi, I have a doubt, the render_method blend and the varied textures are not compatible with RTX or I'm doing something wrong?

[timber charm]

They're semi-compatible. Texture variations only work on the base color. The MER and normal/height map will be the same on each variation.

Blend mode works, but not with a full transparency. The alpha channel is used for the light transmission color in RTX. If you had a fully transparent pixel with the blend method, it'll look 50% black. So it works for making a window but not for foliage, for example.

[viscid moth]

i noticed the issue of soul torchs texture clipping

why does it happen

[proud pike]

Go on

[faint snow]

I'm usually not open to playing other games

The pc I'm eyeing is being sold for 300$

[proud pike]

Hmm

That doesn't leave you with a lot of options

[faint snow]

Being 14 there's not much options to making money, especially since school & living quite far from any town

[proud pike]

Ah I see

You should go for something youre comfortable with getting, it's fine in your case

[faint snow]

I'll probably end up getting it then.

[proud pike]

Beta RTX moment

new heightmaps result in this

[proud pike]

running on GTX 1660 Ti btw :3

[white willow]

DARK SPOT GONE

[sonic canopy]

Yay!

[white willow]

That's what the moon fix was for

[sonic canopy]

There's still a bit of a dark spot as far as I can see but it's way better now

[white willow]

Yeah it's not really a huge problem now

[vague shoal]

BLACK HOLE IS GONE

[white willow]

Hopefully this helps with all the "the sky feels wrong" complaints

Hopefully

Idk though

[sonic canopy]

Actually nvm, it just has the dark spots to the sides, which is actually realistic

[pale urchin]

Is it?

[white willow]

I'll have to see if it's actually gone by using a more intense sun angle

Cuz that was where the issue was most noticeable

1.21.40

1.21.30

its gone chat

[vague shoal]

Yayyy

[viscid moth]

How

They gotta explain how'd they did that

[white willow]

the moon bug fix in the patch notes fixed this

something about a dark haze on the moon

[viscid moth]

It's a fix of sun illuminance affecting the whole sky

[loud pilot]

I feel blind

[viscid moth]

This is monumental

[loud pilot]

other than the color, I don't know what's different

[white willow]

the sky used to be half dark

for no reason

its not anymore

[loud pilot]

oh huh

ohhh, I see now

[white willow]

well i guess the reason is because the moon had a dark haze

that like bled into the daytime

[loud pilot]

that's a more subtle difference between left and right than I could see

[quick beacon]

Feels wrong.

[quasi trench]

wowowowowow

ITS GONEZO

[viscid moth]

I don't think so it's just a bright ness difference with the sun not ruling the whole atmosphere

[white willow]

the only thing in the patch notes about defererd was the moon having a dark haze

[viscid moth]

Aura

[white willow]

that was the word yes

[quasi trench]

finally another sky buff

[pale urchin]

They got rid of the moon's aura. smh 😔

[quasi trench]

no more moon rizz

[viscid moth]

Brain rot got Mojang
Damn moon got no aura

[sonic canopy]

Atmosphere recieves light from the sun, it's supposed to be affected by sun brightness

[white willow]

im gonna test with a more severe sun angle

id like to have my 40 degree sun angle back lol

[sonic canopy]

Ig they fixed scattering directionality, irl rayleigh scattering is equally bright both towards and away from the sun

But can anyone test if the moon also affects sky color? I think it should, to be fully realistic

[white willow]

with -40 sun angle

yippee

[pale urchin]

The moon is nowhere near as bright as the sun.

[viscid moth]

Yeah I meant like the sun light not reaching out he whole atmosphere ig

[sonic canopy]

Yeah but that doesn't mean that it shouldn't scatter any light

You could also just make the moon as bright as the sun via atmosphere config

[white willow]

woah

night sky is so different

its not dark lol

i had no idea my night sky was this purple

[proud pike]

Holy shit

That's great

[proud pike]

The black spot messed up the look of the sky, that is how your sky was supposed to look

Now all the pack devs need to redo their skies again...

[white willow]

i just have to fix my night sky

but its nice it works correctly now

[sonic canopy]

No breaking changes in material.bin format this preview, as far as I can see, which is a nice bonus

[white willow]

sunrise

[proud pike]

Still no update on the whole optimised codebase?

[sonic canopy]

Nope. Gonna wait for the next preview before sending a follow-up

[proud pike]

Rip

I hope mojang actually takes a stance on this issue

[long ruin]

hi

[proud pike]

Helo

:3

[proud pike]

They fixed the black spot in the sky

[long ruin]

I saw

[white willow]

its just nice to be able to mess with sun angle without it also badly screwing up the sky

also looks like fog doesnt really affect sky color as much either

[proud pike]

Are you gonna tone down the colours in your sky?

Cuz they look a bit too colourful atm

Imo atleast

[white willow]

yea

[proud pike]

Nice

[white willow]

im gonna play with them a bit

also

the fog transitions seem to be fixed

[proud pike]

:o

[quick beacon]

?

[white willow]

im not getting the super thick fog on biome edge

[quick beacon]

It's hard to be in between 2 biomes technically.

:3

[pale urchin]

What about when going in and out of water?

[white willow]

one issue i would constantly run into when using height based fogs was this issue. the main issue with these was when you would be right on the edge of the biome, it would forget that you are using height and just blind oyu

i havent seen this issue

even in release 1.21.20 now that i think about it

i wonder if the changes made to fog height actuall fixed this transition issue

[sonic canopy]

This might be how they are going to do that, update old HAL shaders to be up to date with their latest BGFX codebase #1280917643062415390 message. It would be useful only as a reference tho

[white willow]

i have a video of the issue im talking about. just trying to find it

[safe urchin]

wow vanilla sky

[white willow]

this issue doesnt appear to happen anymore

lemme test with this exact biome though

[proud pike]

Whoa

No way

[pale urchin]

I was confused to why they did it all. How does it benefit them? 🤔

[white willow]

ITS FIXED

IT REALLY IS

they really went and fixed height based fog transitions and said nothing about it

[proud pike]

That's a silent W

[white willow]

this also applies to rtx too as i havent seen i there either

although i should test to be sure

[proud pike]

:O

[white willow]

here it is in 1.21.40

same biome same seed

no weird fog changes

the fog color is gross though. i gotta fix that one

also just how much better the sky looks now that it works lol

[proud pike]

Nicee

[white willow]

im actually so hype now

idk how i didnt notice the fog transitions being cleaned up

this has been fixed since at least 1.21.20

when the added the new height parameters

[safe urchin]

wow

sky looks so handsome

[white willow]

which i love btw. the stuff ive done in rtx with these is insane. especially for mountains

well... ok height based fogs are still the way to go

[sonic canopy]

I have 3 theories:

1. This is how they are bringing reference source code back, to be used by add-on creators and shader devs
2. This source code will be compileable at some point 👀
3. idk

[white willow]

on the plus side, the sky actually shines through a little now

before it wouldnt

actually with the fact that the height transitions work correctly, i see no reason to use fixed fogs

[pale urchin]

Can't wait to see pictures of your new and improved sky

[white willow]

oh yea, gonna work on it soon since its a bit too bright

[proud pike]

Excited

For new pack updates

[white willow]

loading editor rn

[pale urchin]

cook

[white willow]

oh no

[pale urchin]

Oh right

[quick beacon]

Good luck using editor with Deferred this week.

[white willow]

time to do it the old way

pain

[proud pike]

[white willow]

its a start

[proud pike]

It's quite dark

:p

The ground I mean

[white willow]

likely my color grading

as i made shadows darker

[silent zealot]

Remember the intenral material shader compilet..

[sonic canopy]

How can I forget

[pale urchin]

I wonder what colour values it takes to get it looking like the real world sky

[white willow]

oh great, the sky getting fixed made the blue reflections worse

[proud pike]

I remember now

[white willow]

time to tune it again

[proud pike]

Ah man

[pale urchin]

Don't you just love it when one feature affects another?

[white willow]

yup

experimental stuff moment

reduced blue issue without hurting sky color :D

[pale urchin]

How do you do that again?

[white willow]

i just reduced all of the values by about 30%

but i kept the variance between them equal

[pale urchin]

define "all of the value"

[white willow]

rgb

red green and blue scattering values

just these

[safe urchin]

that looks quite... Perfect

[pale urchin]

so you don't have to touch scattering strength?

[white willow]

no

it just seems if the color values of the zenith are too high, sky reflections go insane

also water surface color looks so much better with the sky fixes

[proud pike]

Nice

[pale urchin]

Does the sun strength affect reflections?

[safe urchin]

ssr is short

[white willow]

not to my knowledge

[pale urchin]

IBL sky interaction is very interesting

[white willow]

i hate it so much

there we go

[pale urchin]

I hope they make the change themselves at some point

[white willow]

same

[safe urchin]

nice

but in left

up there

no ssr

[white willow]

fading power thing

i forgot to change that too

[safe urchin]

so like ssr render distance

it would be so cool if they make it customizable

[quick beacon]

My SSR configs never changed with each preview.

😔 my shadow configs did get reset this preview

[pale urchin]

What if you disabled fog?

[safe urchin]

can you do same screenshot but with ray tracing

https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/975669020374216734.webp?size=48

[white willow]

my sad attempt to replicate this shot

deferred fog just doesnt pack the same punch

[pale urchin]

At least deferred has Subsurface scattering

[white willow]

that is true

[pale urchin]

You could try making the skies match without fog. I think that would help

RTX sky looks more desaturated

[sonic canopy]

Deferred sand looks like brown sugar lol

[white willow]

lmao

it really does

rtx also just has GI going crazy here

[pale urchin]

Yeah hard to match that

[white willow]

this may also not be the fairest competition since that is betterRTX

lemme compare deferred and normal rtx here

[pale urchin]

Is RTX's sun brighter? Is that why the sand is more illuminated?

[white willow]

possiblyt

i dont use a super brihgt sun in deferred cuz it caues issues with shadows

[pale urchin]

What kind of issues?

[white willow]

shadow brightness just gets destroyed

and indoor areas are like fully illuminated

its quite bad

why the clouds be looking like a heightmap

or well high res normalmap

looks so weird

holy default rtx is....

yk what deferred clouds are missing. they dont have shading

thats what they dont have

they really badly need shading

one of the few areas id say RTX wins

deferred underwater just looks weird

i have hope itll get much better though

[viscid moth]

wth happened 😭

[white willow]

You've entered hell

[viscid moth]

we in alpha baby 🔥

[hollow timber]

why is it so damn grainy lol

[quick beacon]

Do I need to give context?

[white willow]

The shadows are laggy

I wonder if some of the rendering bugs are also affecting deferred

[quasi trench]

oof

[tribal trail]

it would be perfect if a message on the screen would show after trying to use deferred pack in a non-preview version of the game

we need it

[tribal trail]

maybe not the exact text but I hope you all understand the concept

[white willow]

I believe there's a warning on the pack

That says, incompatible string, graphics.pbr

At least on mobile

Lemme check

It doesn't anymore

It used to

[tribal trail]

only for rtx packs

[white willow]

I remember getting one one time back that was back in like 1.20.60

Must've been gone for a long time now

[tribal trail]

I'm pretty sure it was never a thing

and even if it was every player would miss it, a big pop-up would be best

[white willow]

Agreed

[quasi trench]

better rd noises

:doggysmurkW:

[tribal trail]

don't

just don't

[viscid moth]

i believe it was for non-compatible devices with deferred on preview

i also got that issue when my phone wasn't supported at 1.20.40

[white willow]

Hm yeah maybe that was it lol

[dry verge]

Idk if this is the right channel to ask this but how do i make dynamic shading and lighting without addatives like rtx n stuff? Im on android please help

[proud pike]

some lore behind the old bedrock graphics team (2020) from the Minecraft RTX discord

quite a small number of people that had to work on stuff ranging from android, all the way to RTX

that is one of the reasons as to why RTX is the way it is

[quick beacon]

So not Nvidia. Good to know.

[proud pike]

nvidia was a part of the problem too iirc :P

could be wrong on that

[jagged badge]

I suspect it is likely a bit of both. A combination gone wrong between a marketing deal with Nvidia and short-term contractors at Mojang

Really, I would argue that is the biggest difference between Bedrock and Java: the workplace expectations

Java sticks to a core team of employees, many of whom have been part of the company for many years. Bedrock seemingly has people coming and going, which can lead to problems like the one outlined above

[proud pike]

besides matt, i dont think many if any other people on the graphics team remain from back in the RTX development times

[jagged badge]

Shouldn't be an issue if things (a la RenderDragon) are well documented though

[proud pike]

dunno if aaja was there tho

[proud pike]

which is likely to never happen :P

[jagged badge]

I wish I got to see the people behind Minecraft development more, they are all cool people. It's gotten way better as of recent, but IMO Java continues to have better, clear communication between its many technical playerbases and its devs

It may be that I'm simply not in the right circles 🙂

[silent zealot]

We have people like slicedlime explaining the technicaly changelogs

[long ruin]

at least they had the job openings for the graphics team

[proud pike]

i hope someone goes in and secretly starts working on native shader support

[long ruin]

[proud pike]

if only Veka met the qualifications they want

[white willow]

holy crap. i feel bad man. people sitting here bashing them when the whole team was in shambles

thats really unfortunate

[proud pike]

we heard about some of this back when we were sitting in VC with MADLAD in MC RTX discord

[white willow]

ah. idk if i joined yet or not

but it still sucks how it happened

i do hope conditions are better now

[proud pike]

you were there

[white willow]

then my memory sucks

😭

[proud pike]

i think you joined a bit late

[proud pike]

we played gartic phone, remember?

[white willow]

well yeah

i just dont remember all the conversations

[proud pike]

ah i see

[white willow]

ive got finals coming up in a week. my memory is just all over the place lol

[long ruin]

yeah I just finished state testing

harder than I thought

[proud pike]

good luck

[white willow]

ive got like 4 final projects

[proud pike]

more lore regarding RTX not using ReSTIR and ash refusing to talk about sdgp 👀

also RenderDragon was not because of RTX

[long ruin]

intresting

I like lore

[proud pike]

RTX could have had tilted sun angles since the start

[white willow]

a redo of raytracing would be really cool

especially with all the new customization features

[proud pike]

BEDROCK LORE

[silent zealot]

Thought that was common knowledge

[silent zealot]

Mineshafts were created by tommo which jeb ported to java

[proud pike]

i probably forgot

[silent zealot]

Tommo is the dude for MCPE. I still use his gists for some of the leveldb stuff

[proud pike]

i wasnt around the bedrock community at that time

[white willow]

hm so rd was planned for java but due to modding issues its not there

interesting

i wonder if its still something being looked at, or if java is just gonna stay on OGL

although i feel like RD would actually be such a perf benefit for java

[silent zealot]

HelenAngel said that yes but Felix said theres nothing in RD that seems useable for Java so they made Blaze3D

[white willow]

i see

[proud pike]

now we know why entity pbr didnt make its way to RTX

[white willow]

explains villager and warden rendering issues too huh

wonder how they got it working in deferred lol

its still cool we have it

[proud pike]

bro 💀

1 year job

to implement RTX in a block game

[silent zealot]

I dont get it

[white willow]

i feel like it needs more time for that

but maybe im crazy

[proud pike]

nvidia was helpful!1!!

omg nvidia was not the issue lmfao

[white willow]

Interesting

It's still cool we have raytracing in the game at all

Wish it was better of course but yea

that's why we have betterRTX

And with new creators making presets it's breathed a new life into it lol

[silent zealot]

I think they should officially just discontinued RTX, then bring it back in a better state

[white willow]

I don't agree with this, as it would really hurt the passionate community behind it

I do agree it should get updated and be better

But I don't think a whole community should die for that

[rocky halo]

Personnaly I think they should remove rtx to parity with java edition

[proud pike]

ahhhh, MC bedrock was entirely based on DX 11 before RTX began development, so they had to rush and implement DX12 support into the game. thats why performance sucks for RTX cards running in DX12

[proud pike]

bad solution

[rocky halo]

No because they do that with lots of bedrock features

☺️

[white willow]

I hope this can be fixed

My performance shouldn't be like 40% lower than a card 4 gens behind me

[proud pike]

removing an entire rendering pipeline is not something you do to "maintain parity"

[proud pike]

the only fix is to use dx11 :P

[white willow]

Especially with the community behind RTX

[white willow]

Then I lose deferred and RTX support 😭

There's no winning

[proud pike]

yeah

[white willow]

It's just weird cuz AMD cards don't have this issue

[proud pike]

they do

all cards running the game is dx12 will have worse perf than when they use dx11

doesnt matter if they support RT or not

[silent zealot]

World gen basically took a tank for that

[rocky halo]

They removed lots of used bedrock features to matain parity.
For example they recently removed button on a fence, or all sided mushroom poor in creative inventory
It prooves to the chill vanilla bedrock build community that they were wrong all the Time.

[proud pike]

still, a rendering pipeline is not even remotely comparable

that will never happen

[rocky halo]

Parity is better when it removes

[proud pike]

not when it removes a core feature of a game

[quick beacon]

Too much lore.

Need Matpat.

[white willow]

MatPat debunk all the lore behind Minecraft RTX on bedrock

Please 🥺👉👈

[proud pike]

@white willow ENTITY PBR WAS LITERALLY IMPLEMENTED

[proud pike]

real

[silent zealot]

And they gave that to Deferred instead

[proud pike]

yay

we got something

[silent zealot]

Which makes sense since Legends had to use entity pbr as well

[proud pike]

us non rtx folks got something unique >:)

[silent zealot]

To my knowledge from speaking with people, Vanilla is using some of Legends Deferred tech right now

[white willow]

Better RTX has a way to activate it

It's really REALLY broken

We can't do it preset side as we don't have the SC though

I wouldn't want to anyway

[proud pike]

ah

also ash left mojang back in 2021 to go and work for blizzard

[white willow]

🫡

[sonic canopy]

Are you talking about entity emission? As afaik that feature was added by BetterRTX team from scratch

[proud pike]

Yes

[white willow]

I swear Madlad said something about there being some kind of entity PBR workaround but it was really broken

[proud pike]

I don't know if entity pbr altogether was ever in retail builds of rtx

[silent zealot]

I do much prefer Legends PBR system

[graceful iron]

Legends has a PBR system?

huuuh

[proud pike]

Ofc

[white willow]

All games do

[graceful iron]

oh wait

it uses the UE5 PBR system correct?

[proud pike]

Deferred is a port of a lot legends stuff

[white willow]

Rd

But it's handled differently

[graceful iron]

eugh

[white willow]

I haven't played much legends

[silent zealot]

@regal fox has more info on Legends PBR since he messed with it extensively, but yes

[silent zealot]

.

[graceful iron]

Not missing out on that much

It’s “aight”

[white willow]

Ik

I didn't play it cuz I didn't like it

[silent zealot]

I do wish Vanilla had Legends cloud...well a prototype of the clouds

[white willow]

Played the tutorial and was like.. yeah not for me

[regal fox]

Stop making me miss Legends 😦

[silent zealot]

haha

[regal fox]

Coming from Legends to Bedrock is such a downgrade as a Creator nobody even knows

[unreal venture]

I think Deferred will replace RTX either entirely or until they are completed with Deferred