dnd-lore

[mystic merlin]

What-ifs are the province of DM or general discussion, alas

Though Mystara does have them as survivors (I think?) of a downed spacecraft

[eager bay]

obviously magitek starship, like in Spelljammer or whatever the hell it was called

[mystic merlin]

No it was a regular space craft using standard thermonuclear power generation. There’s a cargo cult of subterranean folk who are guided by the disembodied mind of a nuclear physicist who is fulfilling his dying moments to repair the failing nuclear core, but now as an Immortal (god)

It also changed the axial tilt of the planet, dropping everyone into a nuclear winter which changed the migratory patterns of most of the animals on the planet

I love the known world 🙂

[gray heath]

(Mystara is the future, long, long after the apocalypse, but yeah, basically.)

12.4 million, at least.

[eager bay]

thx

[eager bay]

Oh?

[gray heath]

I thought that guy was the Dr. Manhattan of CERN researchers, not the Dr. Manhattan of thermonuclear rocketry. 🤔

And the apocalypse(s) caused all the mutations that resulted in now stable species of elves, dwarves, etc.

[mystic merlin]

Are you sure? The continent structure is correct for earth in the past

[mystic merlin]

It is okay. Seek truth in your heart, and Rafael will guide you.

(Elves are. Identical to Shanara, actual elves; everyone else are mutations, per my last delve into it)

(Oh noooo, another excuse to reread everything ooooh noooo)

[gray heath]

I'm pretty sure the Gazetteer lore says after an apocalypse(s) in a world like ours.

[mystic merlin]

I could check but do you know which gazetteer?

[gray heath]

The Africa and SouthAm collision is also a southern hemisphere mass separated from NorthAm and the the Eurasian separation.

[mystic merlin]

… probably the dark elves one but who knows honestly, I know we got some more of the nuclear winter stuff in Dwarfhome and I know it wasn’t until later it was implied Alfheim is so lush and green because they ruined the weather of the desert place (making it a desert)

[gray heath]

The one I most vividly remember it in is ||one of the elf Gazetteers describing a migration from the separating SouthAm into NorthAm (where most of the lands covered by the Gazettteers are.||

[mystic merlin]

I’m finding references to everything being “BC”, but there’s nothing saying what the letter refer to, and it I think the core of things is the kingdom / civilization of Blackmoor rose to super technology in the distant past of Mystara but whether Blackmoor was present/future or very, very distant past isn’t made clear.

[gray heath]

BC in the Mystara context is Before Cataclysm.

[mystic merlin]

That’s what I assumed, but isn’t the cataclysm the whole ship explosion thing?

I’m seeing a lot of modern Mystaran cultures listed as having histories pre-cataclysm and that doesn’t sound right, but not up for going through them all again. They’re very fever dream if you run through them cover to cover in sequence

Wait no,

The temple of the frog was about future tech folks already

[gray heath]

That and/or the LHC exploding (before we knew what an LHC was or came up with new anxieties about it exploding.)

[mystic merlin]

I think that was one of the retcons from Known World to Mystara

So the trouble I’m having is that 0 BC seems to be during the war between Thyatis and Alphatia? Which… sounds familiar, especially since the Beagle was a later introduction RL chronologically, but… oy. Yeah this will require a few weeks, I think, because I can’t trust secondary sources and primary sources are a handful

I need to prep my 4e game I can’t get caught up in the Known World now. D:

Yeah all I can find by searching directly is an unsourced

The continents of Mystara resemble those of Earth approximately 135 million years ago.

[gray heath]

Oh, my bad. BC is Before Crowning of the first Emperor of Thyatis. 🤦‍♀️

[mystic merlin]

I mean I would believe it changed. The gameline ran from like 78 to 91 (maybe 94)

[gray heath]

That makes things a lot muddier clearer. It makes things "clearer."

[mystic merlin]

The line is full of shifts in continuity. At one point the present Duke Stephen is the third Duke Karameikos, and later he’s the first and they moved the timeline forward to give it colonial and imperialist tensions

Which sucks, a bit. I really want more about the native Traladarans and why they have a random Nosferatu as a Baron?

[gray heath]

Some of that is explored in ||B10, Night's Dark Terror||

[mystic merlin]

Wait you mean why they have the nosferatu baron? That’s my bad, that’s actually only a little bit of my interest

I want to know more about them to portray them in the world because they are described as a living and oppressed while occupied culture but all of the descriptions from the Karameikos side read like they were a tribal people who were put displaced and occupied and I could never reconcile that (likely because I have no concept of how one conquers a peer and maintains the illusion of being the good guy)

[analog oxide]

• adds meek's comments to his 'Meek's Mystara Corner email *

[spark haven]

how one conquers a peer and maintains the illusion of being the good guy
Usually by teaching them religion or by providing "humanitarian aid" in the form of investments which secure control of local resources which you can then exploit

[mystic merlin]

Having to educate or aid them doesn’t strike me as peer to peer on the scale of nations, is the thing.

But yeah.

Maybe I’m just at that stage where it doesn’t seem sensible to me

[dreamy lava]

Eberron doesn't consider the origin of species (barring a few that were explicitly created by something else; elves, dragonborn(?), warforged in living memory), with the idea that the various sentient species emerged more or less in their current forms

There is an absolute Time Abyss in the history, but the oldest race we have a non-mythical origin for are the elves, who have kinda since made their whole cultures about their creation.

Everyone else is either "we were created like this (obvious myth)", "Huh, that's a weird thing that might be related", or "i'unno, we've been here"

Cultural origins are more common.

[spark haven]

Sure, but if the two parties were actually perfectly equal peers, then no conquest would've been possible in the first place, the fight would've come to a standstill. War is expensive, losing a war doubly so. Infrastructure and lives are destroyed, and it takes a lot of money, time and labor to rebuild roads, farms, mines, homes, defensive fortifications and other military infrastructure, etc.

The conquering party coming in and saying "Awww you poor babies, let us help you rebuild your hospitals and roads, all you have to do is take out a very large loan from us" is a pretty tried and true strategy for keeping a beaten party down.

Having to educate or aid them
I'd also say "having to" isn't quite right. You don't have to do anything about rebuilding or healing the places you conquer. But, if you don't you've just spent your war budget on...sending a few thousand people on a walking/horseback (and light arson) tour of a few neighboring cities . If you don't come home with new territory, access to new resources, valuable loot, or a significant shift in the geopolitical landscape then you're just throwing money and lives into a black hole. It's a strategic choice.

One could also ask the genuine question: "does one wage wars against one's peers?" Can you actually consider someone a living, breathing sentient person on the same level of cosmological and ethical importance as you, and also say "We are going to take away your lives and your homes"? Who defines the peer tier list, ya know?

[marble steppe]

Excuse me, i dont seem to find the homebrew discussion channel

Can someone ping me?

[grim dagger]

If you ever can't find a channel I'd recommend looking through #channel-guide and #880965682462875679.

[mystic merlin]

Disagree. In D&D terms being equal means “both sides have a +11”, the winds of fortune ever blow.

[obtuse bloom]

yo how did blink dogs win against displacer beasts ? arent displacer beasts much stronger ?

[gray heath]

Pack hunters vs solitary and blinking /displacement value differences

[mystic merlin]

Action economy. Displacer beasts tend to rove only as individuals. Blink dogs run in packs.

And if you go back to the 1e stuff, every single Good aligned creature in the world united in one massive army to wage war on everything Evil, and a lot of the shape of the world — shared languages, the fact that barely surviving civilizations all exist underground where they fear to tread into the light of the overworld, ancient enmity between species — all come down to this primordial assault that only fell apart when some forces of good wanted to chase everyone down into their hiding spaces and murder them to a one, and some forces of good went “whoa, homie, no. That’s genocide, that’s not something you can do and keep a Capital G good on your alignment sheet”

[iron saffron]

It never made sense that displacer beasts didn't also have bite and claw attacks...

[mystic merlin]

They’re likely built like cheetahs instead of tigers

[zenith dust]

I think they're explicitly six legged panthers, right?

[crude blaze]

Yep

[zenith dust]

but it could be their tentacles are just significantly more potent than claws or teeth, and carry less risk for use

[mystic merlin]

I don’t know! I don’t think so, but they’ve had various shifts in various places

A friend of mine found reference to being able to tame a displacer beast but only if their tentacles were removed when a kitten, which I can’t very often but would be an interesting like, maybe the tentacles are actually symbiotically attached and influence their personalities?

[zenith dust]

ultimately they'd hit far above their weight class if they had claw and bite attacks in addition to the tentacle attacks and displacement effect

[crude blaze]

5E explicitly has them as six-legged great cats, yeah

And they’re associated with panthers on at least one domain of dread

[mystic merlin]

1e: vaguely puma-like, blue-black with dead black tentacles.
2e: a magical creature that resembles a puma with two black tentacles on it’s back.
3e: <my monster manual is missing> (.0) / looks like an emancipated panther with blue-black fur (.5)
4e: no description, just art in MM1
5e: a sleek great cat with blue-black fur

Sorry for the delay. My easy access 4e books are in folders from when everyone would xerox their books, and trying to gently remove the bottom folder caused a bookshelf colapse

Puma is the genus of great cat that includes panther, though I like the idea of having a like, Lynx of Mountain Lion displacer beast.

Cheetahs are the sole member of their genus. Seems like a niche to fill with monsters, to me

[young ridge]

How big are koblod eggs

[analog oxide]

Pretty sure they had bite in 3.xe.

[mystic merlin]

Cannot check. Displacer beasts are not OGL content xD

[iron saffron]

You are correct (I just checked the 3.5E MM)

[mystic merlin]

I think the 2e planescape stuff had them never use their claws as like, a prestige thing

[rough fractal]

So, I have a group of enemies in my game that are psionic spies and assassins. Part of me thought it'd be interesting to have them as some cult of evil Kalashtar, but with everything I'm reading it seem like there's no precedent for Kalashtar being evil?

[ionic rivet]

Then time to add to the Kslashtar story in your game…

[mystic merlin]

There is an equivalent to the kalashtar that are evil, but I think what makes them, kslashtar instead of the other thing is specifically that they are not the evil faction. There is an equivalent, psychic human type person who is like, grown to not have a soul to make them much easier to possess by psychic nightmare monsters.

It looks like the name of them is called be inspired.

It also looks like the. Kalashtar were made in the same fashion by the Quori so I could see just using them as they are

[rough fractal]

Hm. I don't think that's exactly what I'm looking for

So one reason I want to do this is that the PC (1 on 1 game) is an abandoned Kalashtar himself. He doesn't even know he isn't just human. I thought evil Kalashtar telling him what he is would be interesting

[sharp owl]

Kalashtar are those bonded with rogue, good quori spirits and their evil counterparts are the inspired, those who volunteer or are deceived into becoming vessels for the regular, evil quori

That's not to say a kalashtar themselves can't be evil, they're not controlled by their quori spirit, it's a union

[zenith dust]

if you've seen Doom Patrol, Kalashtar are like a more subtle Negative Man - there's a spirit they're bonded with but as the player you control the entire being.

and instead of weird radiation powers and bandages you look like a human but have some mild psychic powers 😄

[cobalt lotus]

How do Changlings reproduce

[zenith dust]

no idea, it's not been mentioned

it is weird how often "how do these things get it on" is a question in here tho

[cobalt lotus]

being shapeshifters, can they just reproduce asexually?

[gray heath]

unspecified

[cobalt lotus]

I mean physically I see no reason they can't

[unkempt merlin]

Changeling have children via shapeshifting and having a child normally in the way that whatever the respective race does. They are born looking like whatever that race is, but they eventually they revert to their "natural" form and are a changeling.

In Eberron at least

[cobalt lotus]

Okay thank you
I'm making a Changling character and needed to know if they had 1 or two parents

[iron saffron]

Ask your DM.

Changlings were playable races in 4E. Lemme look.

[unkempt merlin]

to clarify a bit, they can have children in their base form as well. and when they have a child while in a different form, the child could be that of the race or be a changeling, you wouldn't know till they transform
https://keith-baker.com/faq-changelings/

theres 2 questions on the topic

[cobalt lotus]

What happens if 2 Changlings take a races form and have a kid
Are they definitely a Changling

[unkempt merlin]

probably

[cobalt lotus]

Can Changlings control taste

[iron saffron]

Of...?

[cobalt lotus]

Themselves

[mystic merlin]

No, they shift shape not molecular composition

[spark haven]

I'm not intimately familiar with the lore, but just being reasonable ,you'd have to assume that a changeling would have to at least be an incredibly high level monk to reach Bene Gesserit level control over their shifting

or similarly empowered

[zenith dust]

There is a feat in exploring eberron that gives significantly more control

[mystic merlin]

There’s also one feat and one spell, which make you taste terrible, and have an adverse effect on enemies which bite you

[white ravine]

When a changeling (or a doppleganger for that matter) have a kid, their shifted appearance doesnt affect the kid. Theyre either whatever their other parent was or theyre a shapeshifter as well

[vagrant inlet]

i have a question

Tiamat was the ruler of avernus in 1e, after that Bel was added as ruler of avernus.
In adnd Zariel > Bel

As a reward, Bel was given command of all the
armies of Avernus and became the right hand of Zariel,
the original Lord of Avemus.
in 3e Bel > Zariel
Bel rose through the ranks from a quivering, mindless lemure
to full pit fi end status. He led the diabolical armies against
the demons and, through a combination of guile and power,
smeared himself over and over in bloody glory. At long last,
he was elevated by Asmodeus to Lord of the First, displacing
an archduke called Zariel.
in 5e Zariel > Bel
The archduchess Zariel rules Avernus, supplanting
her rival, Bel, who has fallen out of Asmodeus's favor
and is forced to serve as Zariel's advisor

Talking about Tiamat, she is in 5e

Tiamat, the Queen of Evil Dragons, is a prisoner on this layer,
ruling her own domain but confined to the Nine Hells
by Asmodeus in accordance with some ancient contract
(the terms of which are known only to Tiamat and the
Lords of the Nine).

So as i can see zariel and bel just fighting each other all the time? And tiamat at that moment just sitting doing her own things? I cant find a place of tiamat in that conflict. Seems like she just dont care at all, but thats weird

Hm, tiamat in 3e

Bel has recently made inroads into forging
an alliance with Tiamat, who maintains a
domain on his layer.

[white ravine]

Bel is a begrudging servant to Zariel. They take any opportunity to lampoon her since it adds to her chance of demotion and Bel's return.

Tiamat however is pretty much just on her own yeah.

[vagrant inlet]

i see

[white ravine]

If Zariel gave Bel an order theyd have to oblige, but otherwise Bel wants to throw Zariel under the bus.

[mystic merlin]

Tiamat seems bound to hell as punishment for something and the text seems to be inconsistent across the years as to whether hell is where she lives, and belongs, or hell is where she’s stuck, and just making the best of things

[white ravine]

If she wasn't bound to hell she'd be out raising all kinds of chaos

[vagrant inlet]

raising all kinds of chaos
Where?

as far as i know the goal of tiamat is to make her bad things in material plane. But gods cant enter it by default. So, does that bounding means, she cant enter it with avatar as well? If no then that bounding makes no sense at all

[white ravine]

Material plane I assume. Most dragons lay around there after all.

Her Avatar can go to the material

But since she herself is bound the avatar must be summoned from the inside

[vagrant inlet]

So every tiamat summoning rituals ar all about summoning aspect avatar?

[iron saffron]

Usually a god's aspect/avatar arrives in the Material plane (why take the risk and/or use up divine energy to deal with mortals?)

[vagrant inlet]

but...

Great blade (all five daggers): The blade
using a ceremony delineated in
Pyrra’s diary from Ochir Naal’s own notes,
slice open a gate to the Outer Plane of
Baator and allow Tiamat, the Queen of the
Chromatic Dragons, to enter the Prime
Material.
(Blades of Ochir Naal)

[iron saffron]

No idea what "Blades of Ochir Naal" is.

[vagrant inlet]

old item (1995)

also i am pretty sure i saw mention of it in 5e somewhere

Not actually as an item but as key for ceremony

[iron saffron]

The Time of Troubles/Godswar/Avatar Crisis introduced avatar as a game mechanic. The statblocks for the gods in 1E AD&D Deities & Demigods were rather weak. Infamously Lolth in AD&D had 66 hp...

[vagrant inlet]

oh yea that makes sense

[mystic merlin]

She can’t leave hell. She can’t go to any other plane of her own volition, she must be summoned or broken out of jail.

There’s no prohibition stopping gods from walking the earth, exactly, they just tend not to do so openly. In the forgotten realms Ao would stop it, on Oerth gods walked around but in disguise all the time. In the known world gods either don’t exist or have much better things to do

[mystic merlin]

This looks a lot like “plot device to open the prohibition” so I don’t know what you mean by this

[vagrant inlet]

What happened so she become trapped?

i saw, like, a million statements that cleary said she can travel almost anywhere she wants. So i guess something have to happend to jail her, but i dont remember any metions of that

[mystic merlin]

Ochir Naal seems to be a historic figure, names but never presented

[mystic merlin]

I don’t know. I believe it had something to do with the dawn wars when good banished evil from the surface of the world in the assumed setting of advanced dungeons and dragons

But she’s been stuck in hell since 1979 so I dunno

Often the old books would out a god in hell or place a hero’s tomb in a dungeon or give. Demon a grudge and not say why. It was up to a given DM to make up a reason for their world. Much like an onion hanging from the belt, that was the style at the time.

[iron saffron]

Asmodeus bound Tiamat to Avernus to help guard it.

[mystic merlin]

That seems unlikely given asmodeus wasn’t the big ol deific mastermind at the time that he later became

[vagrant inlet]

so I don’t know what you mean by this
we were talking about tiamat entering material plane. As books about gods says, gods cant enter material plane. So i showed that item as example. Cuz it seems it allows to summon a god, not just an avatar

[mystic merlin]

But one never knows

[mystic merlin]

Which book about gods says they cannot enter the material plane?

It’s also worth noting like, if a god cannot enter the prime material in the first place, as a general rule, then someone making daggers that allow that, would be a specific bypass designed to get around that rule so it’s an example of an exception that proves the rule, I think

[vagrant inlet]

Faiths & Avatars page 17

Lesser Powers...

... They are unable to enter the Prime Material Plan

[mystic merlin]

By Eric L Boyd? That might be the hang up. That’s forgotten realms second edition specific, versus Tiamat being stuck in hell being generic (it’s in the 1e monster manual, kinda; she’s not described as stuck directly).

I don’t think Deities & Demigods (3e) constrains gods to stay out of the material at all, and I think 4th edition didn’t either but it made them inscrutable and gave them more important things to do, with Tiamat perhaps still trapped out and Asmodeus now trapped in hell

[vagrant inlet]

Design: Julia Martin with Eric L. Boyd
Additional Design: Ed Greenwood, L. Richard Baker, and David Wise

[iron saffron]

5E Monster Manual (page 68)

She also holds a special enmity for Asmodeus, who long ago stripped her of the rule of Avernus and who continues to curb the Dragon Queen’s power.

5E DMG (page 10)

Tiamat, the Queen of Evil Dragons, is a prisoner on this layer, ruling her own domain but confined to the Nine Hells by Asmodeus in accordance with some ancient contract (the terms of which are known only to Tiamat and the Lords of the Nine).

[mystic merlin]

That’s nifty but still leaves a lot of unanswered questions, primarily because she’s in hell in 1e and this explanation came along almost forty five years later

[iron saffron]

Well, WotC ignored everything pre-2014, so....

[vagrant inlet]

1983

The uppermost plane of the Nine Hells
is ruled by Tiamat, the Chromatic
Dragon

[iron saffron]

She used to be LE and an archdevil but now she's CE and a lesser deity.

[mystic merlin]

Aha! So I’m not the only one who remembers that, it’s not a Mandela thingy

[vagrant inlet]

its indeed not

[mystic merlin]

I always thought Tiamat and Takhisis were different alignment, but when I last checked, they had the same?

[iron saffron]

Well, she's been a lesser deity for a few editions. The CE retconn was in 5E.

[mystic merlin]

I don’t think she was an archdevil though, I don’t think she participated in hell’s hierarchy at all

And, dang. I could have sworn she used to be LE and Takhisis was CE, or maybe the reverse?

And now that they’re literally the same entity we’ll never figure it out without older sources

[vagrant inlet]

as crawford said

Tiamat's invasions of worlds in the multiverse keep failing. She's cranky (CE = Cranky Evil).

[iron saffron]

Tiamat was referred to an archdevil in 1E but she never bothered with the politics of Hell.

[mystic merlin]

Was she? Now that I can check

But also I vaguely recall we had this conversation last server

[iron saffron]

Not much different than Lolth being referred to as a demon lord despite also being a god.

[vagrant inlet]

1992

Ecology: Tiamat is capable of eating anything. On Avernus
she requires no sustenance, drawing her energy from the
plane itself. However, when she travels to other worlds and
planes she feasts upon creatures she defeats, molten objects,
and the very ground.

[mystic merlin]

The fact that she’s comfortable on hell and literally eating dirt anywhere else is very interesting

[vagrant inlet]

xD

[white ravine]

I mean she doesnt PREFER dirt

[mystic merlin]

If we did go over this before, I can’t find it. Might be in Epic

[mystic merlin]

Right. In one place she’s fine and elsewhere she must suffer the non-godly indignity of having to eat enough to sustain her massive bulk and power

That strikes me as in the same vein as being bound to hell, y’know?

[white ravine]

Not like she struggles procuring corpses, however

She opens her mouth and boom, 30 people charred to her liking.

[mystic merlin]

True

[vagrant inlet]

1980

TIAMAT, The Chromatic Dragon, Queen of Evil Dragonkind,
Arch Devil

[iron saffron]

Dragon Magazine #38

[vagrant inlet]

exactly

[mystic merlin]

This ain’t very helpful, there’s no way to verify if it’s an actual quote

[iron saffron]

“Leomund's Tiny Hut: Rearranging and Redefining the Mighty Dragon”. In Jake Jaquet ed. Dragon #38 (TSR, Inc.), p. 41.

[white ravine]

She was an archdevil though, 100% positive on it

[vagrant inlet]

oh yea, i need to add month too my bad

[mystic merlin]

No I was looking for book title actuality. Like I have my 1e monster manual under my arm as I type this

[iron saffron]

The brown and yellow dragons are introduced in that article.

[mystic merlin]

The dragon magazine is neat though and I will accept it’s just a blind spot and I’m wrong 🙂

I forgot her tail has a stinger, I think that’s a callback to the primordial LBB thing where purple wyrms were just dragons grown so large they couldn’t fly or even walk

[vagrant inlet]

how dare you! D:

[stuck breach]

MM 1e, p 32: Tiamat is Lawful Evil, "Tiamat rules the first plane of the Nine Hells where she spawns all of evil dragonkind."
She is not overtly described as either a devil or a goddess.

[iron saffron]

Speaking of legless dragons, I wish they would bring back the Lindworms

[mystic merlin]

Phew, my number scale is off. She has 128 hit points and that feels too low but

[iron saffron]

It was later splatbooks they made her more powerful (a goddess and archdevil).

128 hp is very low. Lolth had 66 hp.

[mystic merlin]

She was set to be banished back to hell if struck by enough damage and had regeneration that would restore lost body and mind, so I can see the godhood angle.

[stuck breach]

She's only encountered outside of her lair 10% of the time

[mystic merlin]

I don’t think it is very low; you’re looking at a max of like 30 with the best magic gear and max stats on a two handed greatsword.

[vagrant inlet]

The best part of 2e is that it has almost unlimited amount of creatures to play and fight

[stuck breach]

And if she is encountered out of her lair, she'll have 5 huge, adult male dragon consort/guards around her, all of which have spellcasting abilities

[vagrant inlet]

paper dragons the best thing i saw so far

[mystic merlin]

HA!

but occasionally she comes to earth to place a new dragon

… wow, okay yeah I take that back. She has 128 hit points but it looks like you’re supposed to cut off her heads first, because damage to the body directly just… merks her. 48 damage to body and she dies.

I feel like we’re walking the lines of lore and legacy here let me know if I stray too far

[vagrant inlet]

she is also a

Gargantuan fiend.
in 5e avernus adventure

Also if somebody will ever need a good description of tiamat, the best i saw is in polyhedron 73. Thats just sounds amazing

[iron saffron]

Tiamat appeared briefly in a Brazilian tv car commercial that featured the kids from the 80s D&D cartoon.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msDp_k-Fid4

[vagrant inlet]

oh thats nice

[mystic merlin]

A point being missed is my use of past tense; the value of a lore channel is noting where differences lie. What changed in the last five years doesn’t necessarily define the first forty.

She’s a fiend in tyranny of dragons as well, though she’s just a dragon (with ten divine ranks) in third edition and fourth is… weird. S

I forgot how they did everything in 4e, wild

[vagrant inlet]

oh no

u reminded me

the komodo dragon tiamat art from 4e

x_x

also interesting fact

One of the dnd devs has art of tiamat somewhere on the wall

and tiamat has yellow head on that image

rhexx in his video about tiamat said that she can have head of any colour of her choise. But yet i never saw such statement in any books

in 4e adventure one of the arts of tiamat has classic set of colours but in other order, not with the red at the middle.

[vagrant inlet]

i lied, that was DragonMagazine272 page 33

its 9 am my head stops working correctly

[mystic merlin]

I believe it.

Careful with lore videos though. Someone mentioned that Tiamat is the real world Babylonian god come through a portal and while neat. I haven’t been able to find any mention of that every being true in FR

[vagrant inlet]

july 1978 dragon magazine 016

TIAMAT(B) or LOTAN(C) — The Primeval Mother or Dragon

Tiamat is the “salt water” that gave birth to the other Babylonian
gods. Lotan is the Primeval serpent. Both appear as a seven-headed
Dragon and both represent the forces of Chaos.

[iron saffron]

Here's a PBS video on the Mesopotamian mythology's Tiamat, the mother of monsters:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RG6XbNKViIQ

[mystic merlin]

This does not say “Tiamat came into the forgotten realms from earth’s babylon”, and dragon magazine is, especially in the early days, not “official” content. One of the earliest issues has Satan and Lucifer in hell, for example, but we know that Asmodeus is in hell and neither Satan nor Lucifer are.

[vagrant inlet]

yep but thats at least a little bit related to what u said earlier

[white ravine]

Satan is canonical to DND, and Im tired of pretending hes not

[zenith dust]

listen, for the last time his name is Mearls and we aren't supposed to talk about staff that way.

(I AM KIDDING)

[analog oxide]

lucifer etc was in 1e right? cause 2e just had asmodeus... IIRC

[white ravine]

I dont remember exactly when satan appeared

But he was archduke of avernus, only to be swiftly deleted from existence because of...yknow.

[analog oxide]

i know Bel as the leader on avernus (well, Tiamat is the most powerful on avernus but from the archdevils Bel was the leader there)

[white ravine]

Satan got buried HARD.

[mystic merlin]

No, 1e has asmodeus up front.

Satan and Lucifer and alternate takes on more biblical devils show up in an early the dragon, and I think get redone in dragon magazine annual #1

[stuck breach]

Asmodeus was the head of the Devils in 1e as well

[mystic merlin]

We had the CD set of all dragon mags up to a given point too

And… I don’t think BECMI has a hell? It has demons, but only as immortals level enemies. It focused on the weird space astral/ethereal/elemental and that was it

[vagrant inlet]

Tiamat is the most powerful on avernus
well technically not

cuz tiamat is a lesser god

and at the same time god of kobolds exist in avernus as well

and he is one lvl above her

thats what i can tell judging by ranks

also his statblock in 3e looks a bit better than tiamat

but i never played 3e so i might be wrong

[stuck breach]

Yeah, but Tiamat is surrounded by big dragons, while Kurtulmak is surrounded by kobolds.

[vagrant inlet]

tiamat also surrounded by kobolds to be fair

[iron saffron]

...dressed up as dragons...

[gray heath]

Which source are you using?

[vagrant inlet]

it was somewhere in 3e cant say now

[vagrant edge]

Wasn't Kurtulmak imprisoned in Acheron?

Oh wait, Draukari is on Avernus. Interesting.

[white ravine]

It wasn't in Acheron, it's a lake called the 'Shadow Sea' a bit of the ways off from where the Netheril empire was

[vagrant inlet]

Deities and Demigods

[mystic merlin]

Kurtulmak is the go to example for how the rules in that book violate a lot of lore, the example back on GITP being how despite being some sort of turbo mastermind, Asmodeus cannot win a fight against Kurtulmak (who they took to calling special K).

I try to point out that "Asmodeus is in a ifst fight with something" means he's already lost the real battle, but no one listens.

[analog oxide]

The issue there is unlike 2e (and I assume 1e) there's no breakdown like intermediate gods have 50% immunity to lesser and greater have 75% vs lesser etc. So what really makes a bigger difference are which salient divine powers the god has and any other special God powers. I have to look as well. My players were able to manage with a rank 10 without any of the crazy powers (ie. Alter reality, the insta kill one, etc). It was tough of course. Hardest thing they ever faced but a rank 7 with 'better powers would be much more difficult.

[analog oxide]

3e dieties and demigods I assume? Or faiths and pantheons

Ya tiamat has ..iirc, 3 of each main chromatic type. Not sure if they are more powerful than normal dragons. Abishai, some other devils ..and if you use other lore, she could call upon one of her children to help. Mordukhavar the Reaver would be a tough addition to a battle along with its army of dragons and devils. Like have fun with tiamat...

[mystic merlin]

Yeah. Like… a deity with the magic domain is ridiculous because they can straight up invent brand new 17th level spells on the fly and slap you with them??

Imagine like, “Wee Jas gives you a dirty look and casts enhanced maximized traumatic brain hemorrhage roll a fortitude save”

[analog oxide]

Hehe

[gray heath]

The 3e Deities and Demigods? Then yes. The 1e version, they are both lesser gods. 2e introduces the intermediate category (I guess because everyone complained about being locked out of 7th level spells) and rather haphazardly promotes various deities.

[mystic merlin]

I sort of miss that, the ability of only a select a few deities being able to give you higher than six level spells? That is amazing for worldbuilding, and immediately sets up why the default assumption of a cleric has to Chriscilla ties. Once a deity stops being a minor deity, you get better power overall.

I’m not sure how I’m saying proselytize wrong. Oh there it goes.

[storm dagger]

Glad they just have Lesser and Greater again

[eager bay]

None of the main D&D settings justify fictional fauna and whatnot via evolution, right?

[iron saffron]

D&D is very creationist...

[eager bay]

Remind me, are owlbears and whatnot not normal animals?

[iron saffron]

Montrousities

They're magical experiments give awry

[eager bay]

Aah ok

but yeah, the worlds themselves only be a few ten-thousand years old at most

[iron saffron]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

Depends on each campaign setting lore

[eager bay]

FR

[white ravine]

There is a spell directly called "Evolve" from 2e, so read into that how you will.

[iron saffron]

Most of the playable races were created by their creator gods

[eager bay]

Okay, so they’re decidedly not related

[white ravine]

Why do you ask...?

[eager bay]

Well, let’s just say I took a college-level anthropology class this semester and now am examining this whole idea of multiple humankin races perhaps way harder than necessary

[white ravine]

Ah. I can shut down any potential questions you may have with one statement.

Half-Ettin Half-Green Dragon.

This is a thing that exists.

Do not ask questions, you will only hate yourself for it.

[eager bay]

Ettin?

[white ravine]

Two headed giant.

[eager bay]

Show me what an ettin is, I can piece it together from there

oh

Oh.

OH.

[white ravine]

Let that sink in.

[eager bay]

I mean, Dragonborns are a thing

[white ravine]

Dragonborn aren't dragons

They're more...dragon adjacent.

[eager bay]

Aah, I for whatever reason thought they were human/dragon hybrids

[white ravine]

Not exactly a wrong guess.

The rough idea is that dragonborn were made as servants by Asgorath (Dragon god of creation) for the first dragons, residing in the parallel dimension to Toril known as Abeir. After a chunk of Abeir got warped back to Toril, that's where the dragonborn emerged into our world.

The hybrids of dragons and other beings are called half-dragons since well...half dragon.

[mystic merlin]

Mystara and Forgotten realms do. Greyhawk might. Eberron definitey would.

[mystic merlin]

Yeah as gross as the concept can be, the eugenics spells in 2e were some of my favorites. Really dig into that evil sorcerer praxis

[eager bay]

Mystara and FR do justify?

[mystic merlin]

Mystara has actual evolution in some places and the reason it’s static as long as it is is immortal meddling, and forgotten realms is old enough that there’s supposed to be examples of evolutionary change between like, netheril and playable time

[white ravine]

...I didn't even really mean it in like a eugenics way, I just meant by the fact that there's a spell that is effectively magical FEV from fallout

There are SOME mentions of evolution regarding Forgotten Realms though

Humanity for example was made by gods, but still had to evolve from unga bunga cavemen

General idea though is that most things in DND got added by the gods, but then had to grow from there

[eager bay]

Yeye, like a root race

and then the five humanities in Theosophy

[white ravine]

That type of thing, yeah.

[mystic merlin]

Or modified by mad science wizards

[white ravine]

This is where I'd point to any monstrosity.

[eager bay]

Aah, this specifically https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Root_race

[analog oxide]

Where r these spells in 2e . Sound cool

[mystic merlin]

I found them in the encyclopedia mágica, I don’t know where else they would be. Necromancy spells though, I think third through seventh level

[eager bay]

Maybe necromancy be banned in my world. The Dark Arts

[eager bay]

@white ravine You think arcane magic would outright be unable to heal?

[gray heath]

There are some in Dark Sun, ones that will even "purify" your form.

[gray heath]

They are perfectly serviceable as stats for a player wanting to play a half-dragon, so your idea isn't too farfetched.

[gray heath]

(And that's only an optional thing DMG brings up.)

[eager bay]

Is there any lore justification as to why wizards and sorcerers don't get healing spells like Cure Wounds?

[gray heath]

Sorcerers do, or at least they can in 3e. So it goes back to the old days when clerics were armored support casters/second-line warriors limited to 7th level spells vs magic-users with their massive magical effects (once they crossed the power inversion point with fighters).

[eager bay]

Wizards still have the biggest spell list lel

[eager bay]

Is it often assumed nowadays clerics or their equivalent being the more squishy kind?

[storm dagger]

It’s not listed as optional, it’s just a side bar

[gray heath]

Nope. 3e expanding clerical power to 9th level makes them one of the hardest classes in the game. It's interesting that 5e took heavy armor proficiency from them as a default while adding more blatantly offensive spells to their list.

[eager bay]

Hardest?

[gray heath]

It's not used anywhere except the sidebar in DMG. Deities in PHB and SCAG are just described as deities; they aren't ranked.

[gray heath]

Stronk, powerful, etc. Being able to combine 5e's clerical magic and class features with full armor and good weapons is very strong.

[eager bay]

yeye

At least paladins and rangers have their niche

[gray heath]

They are as they are as a legacy of 3e unifying the XP/level chart, as are the expansion of clerical magic/full casting and general discussions about whether classes are balanced.

[eager bay]

thank you. i am aware

[analog oxide]

not really? the thing with a game. is the designers put whatever limits they want. there's no rule of the universe written somewhere 1000s of years ago that games in the future, only clerics must have healing spells, etc. that said, in 2e there were some special healing spells for wizards. the ones i know where named spells - created by specific high level casters. they arent as efficient as cleric healing , but its something. they may have been updated into 3.xe as well.

[white ravine]

Rough idea of why it cant is because arcane magic and divine magic are separate. Divine magic are 'gifts' of sorts. Healing, protection, food and water, etc. Arcane magic is very coded and formulaic magic, so it can't do things like fix wounds.

Healing is a very 'divine' thing in nature, arcane casters cant make things like souls for example. They can mimic it with things like simulacrums, but never true life.

[eager bay]

I see

But both could follow the Vancian magic system?

[white ravine]

Remind me what that is again?

[eager bay]

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VancianMagic

[white ravine]

Oh right. Yeah they both fit.

[eager bay]

I can see for arcane magic just fine, with power being how many spells one can force onto their mind

but how would it go for divine magic?

[white ravine]

Divine magic still relies on the spell format, but I imagine its a lot more malleable than arcane magic. You are effectively asking for 'favors' from your god after all, so it can be bent around in ways.

[analog oxide]

but at the end of the day its some mystical enregy in the universe. no real reason u cant manipulate it to heal just as you do to destroy. its game design

[eager bay]

Mmm, so more of a mana system?

[white ravine]

One can assume? I'd base it more on the fact that a bank wouldnt loan half of its stored cash to someone random

The more important you are to the bank (god), the more power you can draw

[eager bay]

that'd make more sense

like Cleric level

Clerics have a certain calling that grants their power iirc

[white ravine]

The most straightforward way I can imagine the fact that arcane casters cant heal is that the gods are able to channel positive energy through their divine caster in order to heal.

Wizards and the like cant exactly tap into positive energy as easy. It's why there are only TWO spells that arcane casters can use that can heal.

[eager bay]

Or negative

[white ravine]

One being vampiric touch (draining the life out of someone, literally) and the other being life transference (draining the life out of yourself for someone else)

Neither of them heals without taking from something else

[gray heath]

That falls apart when considering 3e's delineation of arcane and divine magics (which may still be operative in 5e). Bards can heal and bards are arcane casters. And in 3e, sorcerers can possibly add bard spells to their repertoire.

[eager bay]

^

[white ravine]

Way I interpret that is the fact bards may be arcane-based but aren't directly manipulating the weave as much as wizards. They draw on more latent force to pull magic, which could let them access healing magic where wizards cant

Same reason why divine sorcerers can use healing magic but most others cant

[eager bay]

Bards in AD&D used the druid spell list after all

[white ravine]

Mhm. And druids are divine

[eager bay]

QED

[white ravine]

que?

[gray heath]

I'm not talking about divine sorcerers, I'm talking about 3e sorcerers learning bard spells.

[gray heath]

But only in 1e. In every other version of D&D they are some version of arcane.

[mystic merlin]

Reminder: the present fifth edition system is still Vancian, and while not direct from the books the major defining form is not the one-and-done but the use of enumerated slots which are expended.

For clarity, most folks have taken to deferring to the one-slot-one-cast specifics by using bullet metaphors. If you’re ant to cast two fireballs you need to load two fireballs into your magazine

Sorcerers in third edition were great; they weren’t necessarily limited to adding arcane spells to their roster, they were capable of observing and studying any magical spell enough to take it on level up. It was wild.

[olive bridge]

okay, question. if the living soul inhabits its own dead body, it's not technically a zombie... what do you call it? (besides undead)

[languid axle]

A revenant of sorts?

[olive bridge]

that checks out

thanks

[eager bay]

Yeye, sorcerers essentially can tie their knots of mana at will

just trying to think how divine spellcasters have the number of spells prepared, or rather how many knots of mana they have tied for them, and how the power scaling would function for them. Stepping outside the game mechanics ofc

[mystic merlin]

Mana is a bad representation and I feel that exposure to video game mana systems is actually getting in the way of understanding how the game tries to describe things

There are no knots of mana; casters one FR do not use their own energy to cast a spell as a first level spell is enough to generally kill a human in the effort.

[eager bay]

The Weave, mb

[mystic merlin]

[Forgotten Realms]
Per the various books on it, magic is a background energy primarily channeled through the weave, a structure created by magic herself to facilitate use and control instead of chaos and disruption; all spellcasters have what is known as “the spark”, which is an innate quality that allows them to actually practice magic.

Magic is known as The Art and is practiced through a complex series of study and exercise of wills as well as various sciences. A wizard develops the ability to prepare and store spells as forms taken with effort into themselves which interact with the weave; as metaphor it would be “you take a shaped pipe out of your pocket and plug it in, to get a specific effect”.

Priests still need to study and understand the arcane but they get assistance through divine power; it is unclear if they get assistance to replace the Spark or if they get assistance with having spell-forms put into their heads for use. It varies by edition and sometimes story.

Sorcery is new enough no one has, to my knowledge, bothered to explain how a sorcerer works and how they’re different. Fourth edition hd sorcerers, I believe, as having a second soul in their body which provided the magic; it’s possible that the reason they get only specific spells and cannot change them is because of the same mechanism that allows an Angel to hallow or a unicorn to teleport or a displacer beast to displace

[eager bay]

Okay, when you mention the Spark, you're basically saying that it's required to cast even the most basic of spells.

[mystic merlin]

Yes.

[eager bay]

damn

[mystic merlin]

The dungeons and dragons rules do not specify this for you; but Lore-wise most people CANNOT EVER cast spells or do magic.

The game is quiet about this because any character can multiclass into a casting class or take a magic feat. That just means those characters had the spark all along.

A warlock often makes deals to get magic despite this, I think? But it’s unclear. In my reading, I have not found anything on warlocks or sorcerers. But I have not checked very closely.

[eager bay]

That makes sense. Kinda like being Force-sensitive in Star Wars or having Magic Circuits in the Nasuverse

[eager bay]

Wait wait wait wait wait

From what you said regarding priests, which in this context would encompass clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers, it probably would circumvent whether one has the Spark or not. From my interpretation, their deity (cleric and paladin) or the nature spirits they commune with (druid and ranger) would probably be taking the spells they would need for their journey or the given day and imparting them in the recipient's mind. They're being lent this otherworldly power, but they don't own it.

[mystic merlin]

No I believe you cannot be a priest without already having the spark. But it might be edition dependent.

Getting magic when you have NO talent would likely be a pact. It’s also possible the spark is variable; there may be folks who can only handle being a Half caster and not a full caster?

[eager bay]

good point, outside game balance justification lel

But isn't divine magic kinda like a pact anyway?

[mystic merlin]

Quick check; arcane magic is The Art and divine magic is The Power, now, so I may be remembering wrong or there may be changes that never came up in our games. 🙂

and no. Divine magic is not at all like a pact. That’s a common misunderstanding but the warlock pact is one-and-done. Technically.

[eager bay]

Yeah. Personally, I think that anyone can learn arcane magic and it's through years of dedication and preparing spells and then casting them that it expands one's own capacity for spells. And this is outside game mechanic BS, but more experienced magi and wizards be able to 1) handle more powerful spells without them backfiring, and 2) hold more of these prepared, essentially half-cast, spells imparted on their brain without it being overloaded and reduced to gray sludge.

Just fyi, I'm taking this idea from reading Jack Vance's short story anthology Tales of the Dying Earth, which is where Vancian magic comes from in its organic, de-gamified form.

[mystic merlin]

https://twitter.com/theedverse/status/1290453219659911169?s=46&t=l2DMVN7hXnzlKE3sTOSbHA

I found a Greenwood thing on it. Seems to indicate you’re right, and clerics can gain casting without predilection.

I think drawing too much inspiration from original sources is folly though. Most of the Vancian stuff was removed before the game was even printed.

Note that Ed Greenwood is not an authority anymore and hasn’t been for decades.

[eager bay]

Of course. I'm thinking for my own worldbuilding anyway, and it not be a tabletop RPG. An actual OEL manga (I just need to find an artist to pair up with)

[mystic merlin]

Lore is a bad place for that imo, this is for asking what is, not what you’d like and how to do it. 🙂

[eager bay]

Absolutely fair. Vancian magic as a game mechanic is a royal pain in the ass, arcane and divine caster alike. And yeah, we can move it to #non-dnd-topics if you so wish.

[iron saffron]

If you're working on a comic you should take inspiration but don't be deadlocked into the Vancian magic system. Make up your own stuff since you're not bound by game mechanics for a visual medium. TTRPG and comics are two different beasts that don't translate 1:1 either direction.

[gray heath]

No, they are limited to arcane spells. It's just that bard is an arcane caster and opens up what the definition of arcane spells is.

[eager bay]

Of course! I’m just thinking it’d be cool to use the Vancian magic system and I guess take its implications into account like Vance does

[eager bay]

Right, so you’d think by that logic that bards and wizards could cast spells from each others’ lists, right?

[gray heath]

If it wasn't a special for sorcerers, sure.

[eager bay]

?

[gray heath]

In 3e, using spells from another class's spell list is a special ability unique to sorcerers.

[mystic merlin]

Incorrect.

These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study.

Only sorcerer has this exception.

[eager bay]

Yeah, let’s take sorcerers out of the equation for this; would healing spells still be better as for divine casters only?

[mystic merlin]

It is possible to read that specifically as learning unusual spells that are still arcane; it is equally possible to read that as not having that specificity.

I believe the fact that it is not specified means toward the latter, myself. 🙂

[gray heath]

And the expansion of that in the spellcasting chapter effectively limits those to bard spells as it states they must be arcane spells.

[eager bay]

@gray heath

[mystic merlin]

Asking about whether or not this should continue seems more like a regular D&D discussion or a homebrew discussion, versus what the legacy justification for it is?

[gray heath]

Mechanically, it doesn't matter with the power boost casters in general, and clerics and druids specifically, have since 2000. Lore reasons are lore reasons.

[eager bay]

Okay, so wizards and bards be able to have their spell lists clumped together from the sound of that

I think(?)

[iron saffron]

This is more of a game rules than lore question?

[eager bay]

either/or

[iron saffron]

Well, lore =/= rules because each edition changes/tweaks the rules and lore.

[eager bay]

Lore then

[iron saffron]

Which edition? 1E bards cast druidic spells...

[gray heath]

1e being the outlier to 0e, 2e, 3e, 5e, and maybe 4e, so context is pretty clear that's not what's being discussed here.

[eager bay]

I guess whichever edition is the most iconic

3.5e iirc

[mystic merlin]

If we are dealing in generalities, it is probably best to stick to fifth edition

[iron saffron]

1E Bards used druid spells
2E Bards used wizard spell list and Int
3E Bards used their own spell list and Cha
4E Bards had their own powers
5E Bards used their own spell list and Cha
(correct me if I'm wrong on these)

[zenith dust]

Looks right to me

[ashen mango]

Is there any cool things about astrology that is connected to dnd

[zenith dust]

there's the stars druid

eberron's got an entire astrology thing

[gray heath]

And 0e bards (published in TSR and very close design-wise to 2e bards) also use wizard spells.

[ashen mango]

I am playing a star/life druid and got the mechanics down pact, it more of a lore questions

[analog oxide]

I thought dragonlance had something before about schools of magic and the gods constellations in the sky at the time

[iron saffron]

What's the Spelljammer monster that's essentially a constellation?

[analog oxide]

In 2e but may b remembered wrong

Constellate

They r constellates

[unkempt merlin]

What's your setting?

[analog oxide]

Constellates r cute. Messing with astronomers by moving around to mess with the sky

[ashen mango]

Forgitten realms

[jagged apex]

do we know where the 5e solar dragons fall among the categories of chromatic, metallic, gem, and netural dragons? and if so which or are they more a misc kind that is so far removed from any other the other kinds?

[mystic merlin]

That is a fabulous question! I will look into that, in the meantime, I am going to regret the loss of the cataclysmic category.

[analog oxide]

Cataclysmic?

Before the spelljammer dragons aren't part of the main categories.

[jagged apex]

my guess so far is neutral since their typical alignment is listed as simply neutral

[iron saffron]

Neither. There are many non-metallic/chromatic/gem dragons pre-5E.

[jagged apex]

basically dragons super charged with elemental energy compared to normal dragons, more elemental energy than a dragon normally is, things like volcanic dragons, earthquake dragons, ect..., basically a degree of this power or elements in general of these are part of the 5e greatwyrm status cuz they basically begin to have more elemental energy than their physical body can contain causing it to kind of leak out

[mystic merlin]

Fourth edition. It separated all dragons into chromatic, metallic, and cataclysmic. The only cataclysmic dragon I recall is the pyroclastic dragon.

[analog oxide]

Ah ok.. in dragonlance the fiery volcano dragons where the chaos dragons... when Chaos (the god being) returned in Drsgons of summer flame

[jagged apex]

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Catastrophic_dragon

[analog oxide]

Sounds coolish I guess 🙂

[jagged apex]

the forgotten realms wiki has pages for the earthquake and volcano dragons but also has lists of names for other known kinds

[fringe dagger]

I noticed that there are images of good natured people riding Blue Dragons. What is that all about?

[iron saffron]

Where is this from?

[delicate ruin]

Those images might be from Pathfinder, they have the dragons flipped where the chromatic ones are good aligned and the metalics are evil.

[jagged apex]

to be fair blues arugably are lawful neutral but just barely qualify as evil, do to a selfish nature typically, that is my guess, else yeah could just be a different franchise where the lore is drastically different

plus i believe pathfinder has different artworks for their averages of those dragons https://i.pinimg.com/originals/95/16/11/951611bfa0ea57549872ba741b49dc86.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/06/40/10/0640108ae40edfa2fcaa44af58422309.jpg the dnd version vs pathfinder version

[white ravine]

...Dont they enjoy tricking people stranded in the desert into eating sand?

[gleaming linden]

sounds like a blue dragon thing to due but man do I love their mating dance

[white ravine]

Reds are my favorite. It's the literal apocalypse.

[gleaming linden]

hehehe Inferno of the Stars it is your time!!

[elfin hornet]

Question: Does anyone know of any deities in dnd lore, all of them, at have a wolf involvement

[white ravine]

Wolves?

Mielikki is known to use wolves to do her work, among other forest critters

However, you could very easily throw together a Dog Lord in the same vein as the Cat Lord, which is the beastland's deity of cats. There's pretty much one 'Lord' for each type of animal, so go wild with that.

[fringe dagger]

I can’t upload the picture for some reason. Also it was using the Dungeons And Dragons design.

[fringe dagger]

I’m pretty sure that the dragon lore for Pathfinder is the same as the dragon lore for Dungeons And Dragons.

[iron saffron]

Never assume when trademarks and copyrights are involved.

[fringe dagger]

How do I upload pictures in this channel?

[fringe dagger]

No, I read it on the Pathfinder Wiki.

[cunning girder]

Upload to an image hosting site then post the link here with context

[delicate ruin]

looks like pathfinder's dragons aren't flipped like i thought. Did some checking. I have no lore explanation for any images of good aligned people riding blue dragons unless those dragons were dominated or under an alignment fliping spell, which used to exist but i am not sure if it does any longer

[sharp owl]

Let's please keep things on D&D

[pseudo wind]

As much as I love Pathfinder far more in both lore and system, the dragon designs for D&D stand out to me way more

Each dragon has a distinctive look, my favorite being gold and silver

[mystic merlin]

Gold makes me sad, I want my 1e MM gold dragons back xD

[iron saffron]

Yeah, I preferred gold dragons being inspired by Chinese/East Asian dragons (aka long/lung). I hated it when they added odd wings to its long serpentine body in later editions (3E?).

I remember back in AD&D a buddy commented that it was dumb the gold dragons were wingless and I retorted that it wasn't because it was based on Chinese dragon (I'm ethnic Chinese so I grew up on wingless dragons).

That said I hope WotC bring back the long/lung-type (plus other non-Western inspired) dragons .

[mystic merlin]

I think anyone our age range would have been exposed. Lots of US soldiers bringing back jackets from places they invaded or saved with ryu/lung/ryong style dragons embroidered on bomber jackets and other nicknacks

[west bear]

DnD needs to add some Chinese style dragons

[eager bay]

Maybe Western for chromatic, Eastern for metallic? I'd also avoid having them be uniform in alignment

[iron saffron]

Meh.

[eager bay]

good chromatic and evil metallic dragons be a thing and all

[paper oasis]

Just as Journeys through the Radiant Citadel explored the varied cultures and civilizations of the world, perhaps a Monster Manual expansion to include the mythological creatures of the world would be good.

[iron saffron]

Chinese dragons look nothing like Western dragons. Why reflavour them as metallic dragons? That would be creatively lazy.

[eager bay]

good point

But for gold dragons, the Eastern kind would totally fit.

[iron saffron]

Well, that was the AD&D gold dragon. It was changed in 3E.

The 1E AD&D MM2 had Chinese dragons (lung) if my memory serves me correctly.

[eager bay]

Kinda interesting debating what in D&D is considered "canon" and "non-canon," especially when a lot of it is a big fantasy kitchen sink in all the cliched glory

[zenith dust]

whatever works best for your table is "canon"

but as far as the written lore, that'll depend on which setting and which edition

[iron saffron]

Canon is what you the DM choose to be. Even though I use the Forgotten Realms setting I ignore a lot from the 4E lore (a good chunk was retconned with 5E, so that helped)

[eager bay]

It's AL where they're real picky about how canon, especially considering how railroaded those campaigns tend to be

[iron saffron]

Most of the AL adventures take place in the Forgotten Realms and they often coincide with the latest hardcover release

[eager bay]

yeye

[hazy fox]

Let's call it "fickle artists".
I think comics and novels had issue of portraying Gold Dragon as gold colored western dragon despite what lore said about them.
That or "cultural uncanny valley" like a Chinese dragon without Fantasy China (I know Kara-Tur is a thing but not sure if lore stated about their origins from there, but for writer "it just happened to look like one").

[whole bobcat]

Does the Dragonlance do extra damage against draconians, creatures with the dragon type, or just true dragons?

The old 2e books didn't help too much, considering the dragonlance was actually important to the story back then

[iron saffron]

Fizban's has the updated 5E version. The extra damage is done to Dragon (it doesn't specifically point out Dragon type though).

[whole bobcat]

ik,that's what I'm asking about

how specific is it

[iron saffron]

I told you already.

[vagrant inlet]

yusyus long dergs amazing

well at least we have sun derg who is almost noodle

couatls also looks kinda like noodles

[stuck breach]

Chinese style dragons appeared in the 1e book Fiend Folio, gold dragons looked like Chinese dragons in 1e as well.

[vagrant inlet]

yea

[stuck breach]

WoTC's official statement is that there is no canon other than the canon at your table

[vagrant inlet]

i think they have whiskers in 5e as an easter egg for that

no longer noodlers but at least have whiskers

[iron saffron]

I stand corrected.

[crude blaze]

The capitalized D means dragon type per the Dragons and Dragons sidebar in Fizban’s.

It should be clear throughout this book whether we’re discussing a specific kind of dragon, the members of the three great dragon families, or all creatures with the Dragon type. But if you see the word “dragon” (not capitalized) and you’re not sure, assume we mean chromatic, gem, and metallic dragons.

At least that’s how I understood it

[fringe dagger]

Maybe this link will help. It leads to an image of someone riding a Blue Dragon.

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/a-practical-guide-to-dragon-riding--22377329387202463/

Actually, here is the image itself.

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/9b/f0/b5/9bf0b57c1b4d046bcacbca5824624772--blue-dragon-dragon-art.jpg

[mystic merlin]

Blue dragons being one of the few who maintained their cool factor between 1 and 3 es

[shell gale]

Could a Illithid/Mind Flayer God conceivably count lore wise for a GOO-lock Patron?

[novel dew]

yes

[eager bay]

do all the campaigns like princes of apocalypse and acquisitions incorportated and such all happen in the same world?

[ionic rivet]

Lore-wise many are based in Faerun but at the end of the day the DM can decide what world/setting the adventure takes place.

[iron saffron]

The books should have a section on incorporating the adventure/campaign into other campaign settings. For example, most of the (classic) adventures in the Ghost of the Saltmarsh anthology were originally set in Greyhawk but the book explains how to incorporate them into Forgotten Realms.

[west bear]

In monster manual 2e it says sahuagin worship great devil-shark. is there more information on it?

[iron saffron]

Most of the 1E and 2E modules were set in Greyhawk. I think it was in 3E that most modules were set in Forgotten Realms.

Currently I'm DMing a 5E conversion of the 3.5E Savage Tide campaign that was set in Greyhawk but have converted it to Faerun (the Chult peninsula to be exact).

[iron saffron]

Sekolah, god of sharks

[west bear]

Ah thanks

[iron saffron]

You can find more info in the 2E Monster Mythology book. (I have a copy of it if you need something specific)

[west bear]

I should be able to find it somewhere, I'm just browsing and that devil-shark caught my eye

[iron saffron]

The Forgotten Realms wiki has an entry on Sekolah.

[mystic merlin]

I am currently trying to combine the maps from the red hand of doom with the fourth edition Nentir vale Myself

[oblique blade]

it'd be so funny if a mindflayer gives its own warlock resistance to its damage

whats the deal with orcs tho. Can someone tell me why theyre the only species who gets a NEGATIVE to a stat? (I mean I know why, but whats the lore reason)

[shell gale]

because orcs be dumb

[oblique blade]

i mean I know thats the in-lore stupid reason but they normally take like 12 different loops to get there

[mystic merlin]

They do not. That has been fixed.

Mlouden03 is also factually wrong, orcs are like any other mammal. They can be dumb or totally awesome

I think now kobolds are the only folk with a penalty, and even that might be gone

[oblique blade]

noo this race isnt a racist concept from a bygone era, its just gods or something blah blah

[oblique blade]

damn why did they catch a stray lmao

[mystic merlin]

Because for everyone thirty people going “yeah that’s sensible game design and also makes sense verisimilitudinously” there’s one very LOUD person doing a wojak face screaming “nOOOOO”0

[oblique blade]

i need to google that word

[mystic merlin]

It’s constructed. Verisimilitude is the sense of internal consistency and “realism”

Verisimilitudinously is me being cute in how I say the word as applies to the topic

[oblique blade]

I learnt a word today

[white ravine]

Kobolds got their penalty removed

Then they got every good feature they had killed

[oblique blade]

dont they get disengage as a bonus action

[white ravine]

Didnt they lose pack tactics?

[cunning girder]

MotM Kobolds don't have Pack Tactics looking at it on DDB

[white ravine]

Rhetorical question, because MOTM in its infinite wisdom removed the main thing kobolds are known for from kobolds

[oblique blade]

I mean theres an argument where pack tactics just gives you a rogue ability that in one dnd comes at 13 th level for rogues

but yeah thats more of a rogue design thing than pack tactics thing

[mystic merlin]

It’s hilarious to me how often people will exclude flanking because “advantage on attacks is so easy to get it’s not really worth making it 100% guaranteed” but then kobolds losing pack tactics and having to do what everyone else does is world shaking

[oblique blade]

yeah flanking is a surprisingly easy rule that I learned when playing in a pathfinder game

just one guy on opposite sides of one guy

[delicate ruin]

in the multiverse There is no lore, only zuul- i mean balance.
But still, losing pack tactics is a bit of a sting.

[oblique blade]

no way to go around the guy you wanna flank? Take a page out of pathfinder again and make an acrobatics checks to make a flip over him

but even without that, flanking normally is already super easy

[grave blade]

it tends to lead to conga lines and devalues other methods of advantage is the main criticism i see of it

[mystic merlin]

That’s not even a pathfinder thing, that’s been in D&D since 1981

You can also just jump

[white ravine]

It's moreso the fact an entire team having it can be nasty, especially since kobold doesn't really lend itself to anything particularly good to use with that advantage (or at least didnt have anything back in volo's original time)

It didn't have much, but pack tactics made up for it being their main thing

[oblique blade]

i know but its more or less the only easy way to get flat footed on any rogue so thats where I learnt it

[mystic merlin]

Yeah “advantage is supposed to be special” which runs me the wrong way, since dis/ad was literally supposed to be the new “DM’s best friend” you can slap on anything and everything if appropriate

[grave blade]

that's because the thing that benefnits from you advantage tends to be from your class

or feats

[oblique blade]

bonus action disengage is cracked on any class tbh

also just make enemies use flanking as well

[white ravine]

Correct, but kobold doesn't really have anything that makes any particular class benefit extremely well off it.

[grave blade]

well, yeah? most races don't

[white ravine]

-2 to strength and small size means no bigger weapons, rogue already gets sneak for being in flanking, etc.

[grave blade]

they don't have -2 str

also though, as usual crossbow expert + sharpshooter exists

[oblique blade]

but yes I do agree with your general sentiment that races need actually cool features to stand out

[mystic merlin]

They don’t have -2 to strength anymore? Their impact is now based on capacity to carry

[white ravine]

Not anymore, and then they shredded pack tactics off.

[oblique blade]

I mean

worthy trade off

[white ravine]

-2 for pack tactics, I agree

It's what ORC SHOULD HAVE BEEN.

Still mad about that

[grave blade]

they got rid of -2

[oblique blade]

disagree

[oblique blade]

opposite I mean

[grave blade]

while still having pack tactics

[oblique blade]

now kobolds can also play strength based classes without taking a penalty

[white ravine]

I mean yeah, would suck if you lost pack tactics and kept the -2.

But that's part of the balance of it

[grave blade]

they still can't use large weapons effectively

[white ravine]

Stronger feature, slight detriment

[oblique blade]

oh yeah theres that as well

[grave blade]

and that's where the best melee damage is at

[mystic merlin]

Anyway. Kobolds being Draconic offshoots makes the lack of pack tactics and strength penalty sensible enough I’m heavy

[oblique blade]

but isnt there a benefit to being small?

[white ravine]

Your small

Crawl spaces and such

[mystic merlin]

Lore wise? No, not especially

[oblique blade]

thats not much of a benefit at all lol

[white ravine]

Squeezing can be a massive advantage if your DM lets you capitalize. Why do you think every heist movie has some scene regarding vents?

[mystic merlin]

Just use Kob-old stat block for the dog faced ruffians of yesteryear and the newer, svelte Draconic kobolds get the new stats.

[white ravine]

I got a whole other stat block for the old kobolds

[grave blade]

you can ride mounts in medium spaces

which basically means a default speed of 80ft

until it dies anyways

[mystic merlin]

Having watched a real human man ride a normal hyena, I think the “must be larger than you” is silly

This is the lore channel, my loves. How the rules work should go to general or rules chat 🙂

[white ravine]

Its more so you dont cause shenanigans like a very much too big ogre riding a regular horse or the infamous centaur wheel

[eternal zodiac]

Hey everyone! So I’m starting to want to learn more about the history and lore of D&D. Where’s a good or decent place to start?

[zenith dust]

#dnd-lore !

[white ravine]

Were right here

[white ravine]

Its really...a lot. Its easier to start at a specific point and kind of expand from there.

[eternal zodiac]

Well, I’m looking for books and such.

[white ravine]

Ah. SCAG, (Sword coast adventurers guide) Volos guide to monsters, and Mordenkainens tome of foes are my recommendations

A lot of the lore is baked into older editions though, but the 5e books i listed there will get you a good overview

[little grove]

After that you can read the Drizzit books. I believe the stories are non-canonical, but it does go into some of the lore, and they're just fun.

[eternal zodiac]

Ok, I have a bunch of those lol

[mystic merlin]

History of the hobby or lore of a given setting?

[eternal zodiac]

Setting

[shell gale]

What RAW feats exist that are best flavor for a Mind Flayer custom Lineage? In terms of being accurate.

GOO-lock so telepathy already taken care of

[sharp owl]

You probably want #1045166392174972938

[novel dew]

So the halflings of Athas started the apocalypse, turning the Blue Sun green (and rendering Athas an Earth-like rather than an Ocean World)...

Rajaat, the First Sorcerer, sought to return the world back to the Blue Age by removing all the impure races (aka everyone that wasn't a halfling or thri-kreen as they were the original natives), and taught his Champions Defiling Magic.

As time went on, the wars began and soon the world, by the direct actions of Rajaat the angry halfling as @fallow shore put it, the Green Sun turned Red... and Athas as we know it came to be

the Sorcerer-Kings as we know them in the Dark Sun era were, or were taught by, the Champions of Rajaat

[fallow shore]

He was also a sorta halfling, a pyreen

[sharp owl]

Huh, wow

TIL

[fallow shore]

The champaions of rajaat were mostly humans who were told they'd bring the superior age of mankind or smt

Said angry halfling is contained by the single most powerful being in athas, borys with the aid of a thousand soul sacrifices

[novel dew]

The main thing is, halflings were the original natives. humans, elves, dwarves, etc... all descend from halfling stock on Athas

[fallow shore]

Sorta

[novel dew]

Kreen were just doin Kreen things tho

[fallow shore]

Thri kreen and dray were new

And the githyanki are stranded survivors

[novel dew]

according to Beyond the Prism Pentad, Kreen were original natives and the only intelligent race other than halflings during the Blue Age

so they were around. shrug

[fallow shore]

Funny how thri kreen just doesn't care

[novel dew]

they really don't lol

"Are we surviving? Yes?" shrug and resume life

[sharp owl]

@fallow shore@novel dew Thank you for the edumacating on Dark Sun lore

[novel dew]

see, Dark Sun has some REAL great lore, because Eldritch Machines that change the color of the bloody sun as a result of its use and impacting the whole world as a consequence? MWAH

but then the everything else...

[fallow shore]

It's never really explained fully what changed the sun

[sharp owl]

Yeah, it's kinda like going to an all you can eat as a vegetarian 😛

[fallow shore]

It is however a giant nature message

[tawdry plover]

It's wild how often "wait that sounds like a meme that can't be real" turns out to be the truth in this game

[novel dew]

the irony is, I actually do like Dark Sun. I like the gritty, I like the grimdark. to quote a friend of mine, "There is freedom in despair."

It's the closest thing to a Dark Souls setting that we have by default. ...but then... motions to the unnecessary brutality, the utter moral gray of EVERYTHING and trying to be a good guy will generally get you killed or enslaved and-

[fallow shore]

What I like about dark sun is nuance

Halflings have a rich and defined culture but they're also cannibalistic and xenophobic as hell

[novel dew]

the problem is that most people (which... unfortunately includes myself) can't really implement the nuance of Dark Sun well enough to make the iffy themes worth playing in for most people. You really need the right set of players willing to buy into the premise.

...that said, my greatest moment as a DnD player was on Athas as a halfling, so... ya know, there is that

[fallow shore]

Half giants assimilate the culture of any around them whether a peaceful (relatively) one or a band of elf marauders

[sharp owl]

ikr

[fallow shore]

Anyways the real moral is don't let the primordials win ever

And that we're lucky Zeus sealed the titans

[novel dew]

heh

[west bear]

MrRhexx has good videos on Forgotten Realms on YT

[novel dew]

Rhexx also is a terrible source because he doesn't cite anything, and often mixes in old lore with new lore with no delineation as to what is what... and also puts in his own homebrew without any form of disclaimer

he is not a good source to learn anything.

[obsidian gate]

i suggest forgotten realms wiki instead

[west bear]

Yea it's bad he only sometimes cites but it's fun to listen none the less

[sharp owl]

If you want a good video source for forgotten realms lore; Jordphan. He cites all his sources

[novel dew]

or the Mighty Gluestick channel.

[fringe dagger]

https://larryelmore.com/core/imgs/prints/THE FOUR WOMEN OF DRAGONLANCE.jpg This too.

[pseudo wind]

Counter point: changing the world for the better is still baked into the setting, i.e. Avangions. One of the city states overthrew its sorcerer-king, something unheard of, thought impossible. And for all the moral grayness, slavery is still considered universally evil in the narrative. You will never find someone with a Good alignment to condone slavery on Athas. Ever.

[fringe dagger]

Looks like Dragonlance has revealed new Dragonnel species.

The Dragon Army Dragonnel, and the Wasteland Dragonnel.

[grave blade]

oh, interesting, i was going to disagree about the army one, but the army one's claws do fire damage interestingly enough

[mystic merlin]

It is, but in a novel, iirc?

Deep magic ritual by halfling leading an attempted kill-all-humans (and also everyone else who wasn’t a halfling), using defiling magic of such high level it drained the sun down to its final life cycle

[mystic merlin]

Kithara and Khelendros!

I don’t recognize the one on the far right. Is she the one from the future novels? sturm’s daughter?

[mystic merlin]

Okay. 🙂 you’ll want to narrow in a little bit. I suspect it’s the forgotten realms/Faerun/Toril (all diff. Names, same place) because that’s the assumed default for D&D right now?

[mystic merlin]

The sorcerer kings are some of the most compelling concepts in D&D, for me. Incredibly powerful, to the point of fusing two disparate sciences in ways no one else can even fathom; a massive mystery beyond which even conjecture is slim

[mystic merlin]

Mighty glue stick has some issues with glossing over shifts in edition and retcons without acknowledging that discrepancies exist, imo. Jorphdan does this as well but tries to point it out in the moment or circle back.

Mr. Rhexx seems to straight up fabricate stuff sometimes?

[mystic merlin]

Good catch! I had originally just thought “oh good, dragonnels but without terrible art!” And moved on, I’ll check those out 🙂

[unkempt merlin]

very much so @ rhexx fabricating stuff/putting his headcanon in as fact

gluestick at least cites (and at least 80% in the vid itself says where the info he is talking about in a section is from)

[west bear]

Huh didn't know that, at least I got into DnD lore or DnD at all is because of him

[mystic merlin]

That’s good! D&D stuff is fun. The lore is also fun.

[west bear]

Yeah the lore is very fun, I'm reading older monster manuals and I wish they would write more about some monster in 5e because they're so interesting

[main palm]

i have a question how does an ancient dragon becomes an immortal great dragon?

[iron saffron]

You're asking about great wryms from Fizban's?

[main palm]

yes

they are called great wyrms, but i call them great dragons

[crude blaze]

I think there’s no one way to do it

[iron saffron]

Great wrym was the age category after ancient in pre-5E editions.

[crude blaze]

[5E] Bahamut elevates metallics he think they deserve, chromatics state they can get it from gaining a vast incredible hoard, etc.

I think they leave it up to the DM what the individual dragon did to elevate to greatwyrm

[unkempt merlin]

Short answer: multiple ways involving Magic™️

The same way how other age categories aren't actually obtained just via aging

[west bear]

One way would be to become dracolich

[crude blaze]

Dracoliches are different from greatwyrms

[main palm]

@crude blaze thank you for the answer, but for a black dragon specifically i assume they will just need to watch and cause as much suffering and misery for mortals as possible?

[crude blaze]

If that sounds like it’ll work for you, power to ya

[mystic merlin]

Greta wyrm as a template is a neat concept, the idea that they begin to vibe with their alternate dimension echoes is really interesting (Although a weird default given how vague and untouched on it is)

[mystic merlin]

That’s likely going to be how they get the vast hoard they need, and a bonus, but not required?

[livid moat]

Bit of a random question but, What type of teeth would a minotaur have?

In mythology THE minotaur ate human flesh

[mystic merlin]

Human ish teeth I think? While they have th e head of a bull they’re meat eaters, I think.

I’m not sure to what degree being able to cook food means they could get by with cow teeth.

[eternal zodiac]

That is correct. I’m thinking of buying the old Forgotten realms books to just have an adventure

[west bear]

In monster manual it says minotaurs are carnivores

*most

[livid moat]

So, it wouldnt be wrong making them omnivorous then?

since, even if their head contained sharp teeth, they still have a human digestive track most likely

[west bear]

It says most so probably there are omnivorous or herbivorous minotaurs

[iron saffron]

You're the DM, you make eat whatever you want them to eat.

[mystic merlin]

Okay do you mean “have an adventure reading all this old stuff” or to buy an adventure to run/play?

I strongly encourage you if the first one 🙂

[mystic merlin]

That is not a very good or valid answer in the channel to find out what existing information there is 😕

[iron saffron]

They asked, "So, it wouldnt be wrong making them omnivorous then?"

[mystic merlin]

They did, but the framing device is detrimental, I feel 🙂

I had just gone back to check that though. Wasn’t quick enough to come back down and clarify. My bad OMYAC

[iron saffron]

DM's fiat overrides "official" lore.

[main palm]

a question what happens to red dragons when they mature, does their father kick them out of the lair or they can choose to stay in the pride??

[iron saffron]

I believe they're kicked out of the lair when they're young.

Have to check the previous editions' Dragonomincon...

[crude blaze]

I think in 5E sooner or later they feel a need to go out and make their own too

[west bear]

"By age 6, a dragon has grown enough to double its length,
though its head and feet still seem too big for the rest of its
body. It becomes physically stronger and more robust. The
dragon’s larger size often makes finding a new lair necessary.
Many dragons relocate at this stage anyway, especially if
they do not have parental support"

[mystic merlin]

Not in a channel about official lore

The point of a channel like this is the assumption set. “Aside from your personal preference what is the historical text view on this?”

[iron saffron]

Well, my point answering that question

[mystic merlin]

That’s all. Just about focus and making sure we’re being productive. 🙂

[iron saffron]

We're heading into pedantic territory.

[mystic merlin]

I do not think “be aware of the channel topic” is all that pedantic, honestly, but sure?

I dunno love. I recognized where I erred and offered apology and then it got brought up again as a general statement and I pointed to why having a specific channel is valuable. We can just stop, I thought that would happen when I said “I didn’t come back fast enough to fix it, my bad”

[iron saffron]

Anyway...

[main palm]

?????

[wary glacier]

i think we're way further in than that tbh

[iron saffron]

Anyway...

[main palm]

i don't think this chaneel is for that talk, but anyways my second question how many concubines does an adult red dragon normally have?

i don't wanna make this hard for my players

i am thinking like 4?

[iron saffron]

Wut.

[mystic merlin]

I don’t think fifth edition discusses it? Third edition draconomicon mentions dragons trend polyamorous as much as they trend monogamous but I don’t believe it ever touches on groups pairing together, especially not in an anime harem style

[iron saffron]

Red dragons are typically CE (fiercely independent) so they don't have lifelong mates let alone harems.

[main palm]

what? so they don't have packs?

[mystic merlin]

Chaotic evil means different things in each edition and each setting, that’s probably not a good metric to use

[iron saffron]

...

[mystic merlin]

No, dragons are highly intelligent and function as people more than animals. They do not have packs or prides, they have suzerains that stretch hundreds of miles owned by individuals with alliances between adjacent individuals (or war, either or)

[iron saffron]

Most dragons, even metallic, tend to live solitary lives except when mating (or raising their young).

[main palm]

ah i see

which dragon type will most likely will try to have packs?

[mystic merlin]

None, in existing lore.

Although as OMYAC notes you’re free to change that if you need it to happen, but the answer of what’s already there is going to come up “none of em”

[iron saffron]

Given their appetite, a region wouldn't last long if there was a pack of young/adult dragons roaming around to hunt.

[main palm]

so no dragon lives communally? weird i thought it would make sense to make a pack or a pride and hunt and get gold?

[iron saffron]

Dragons are apex predators.

Think of them more like tigers than lions (not all predators hunt in groups)

[mystic merlin]

I don’t think you understand the size and scope of dragons? These are flying magic elephants with genius brains and bigger egos

When a dragon has a group, it’s usually minions

[obsidian gate]

pretty sure some dragons dont mind company of other dragons

[eternal zodiac]

Reading all the old stuff like the stuff by Ed Greenwood and RA Salvatore

[iron saffron]

The previous editions' Dragonomicon goes in further details of the dragons' ecology.

[mystic merlin]

Mhmm. They’re occasionally polyamorous and such.

But they’re not lions with one male allowed in the local group or something

[crude blaze]

I also feel like I read in Fizban’s that sometimes an adult/ancient dragon will give parts of their domain for them to monitor. Could make for an interesting nation of dragons where each of the states or provinces are led by a younger dragon, child of the sovereign.

[vernal geode]

@main palm depeding on the red dragon, i don't think an adult will have a lot of mates but an ancient one will have a lot of them, cuz ancient dragons tend to control large areas and they need children to look after them.

also great wyrms are world ending events if you anger one of them, cuz they tend to rule over large empires

[iron saffron]

Dragons don't get weaker as they get older like other animals do. Ancient dragons are very powerful and don't need children to take care of them — if anything they're competition.

[mystic merlin]

I took that as “need children to look after the edges of the large territory”

[vernal geode]

being an ancient dragon you tend to be unchallenged, cuz people don't know that ancient dragons are pretty rare, also if one of the children goes out of line the ancient dragon will just go to them kill them and give his lair to another child

[pseudo wind]

Drakes are a different story I think, or was it wyverns

More communal dragonkin

[mystic merlin]

Hmm. I don’t know lucha bout wyverns officially I should correct that

Aside from they sometimes spontaneously manifest from giant gems buried in the sides of mountains when the sun hits them [2e starter adventure: eye of the wyvern]

[zenith dust]

we interrupt your lore discussion for this breaking news: speaking of lucha wyverns, I cross body blocked an invisible one off the top of a daern's instant fortress once.

back to your regularly scheduled lore

[fringe dagger]

Disagree? I never said anything about the Dragon Army Dragonnel. I only said what it was called.

[cyan rose]

Eventually, though, they do grow weaker, after many many thousands of years of life and injuries and such.
yes?
or is it true immortality with no power cap

I thought I'd read about dragons that reached that point

[grave blade]

oh, i was gonna disagree that it was a new species of them

[jagged apex]

one thing i find interesting but am not sure what it means entirely, any chance anyone can shed some light on what this would mean? for a moonstone dragon to quote "die well"

as in past editions one of the rumors and legends around them was that "When one died well, its heart turned into a lump of pure adamantine"

[iron saffron]

With the 5E Fizban's lore they eventually become great wryms and they span with echoes across worlds.

[golden mauve]

would those echoes froma cross worlds be echoes similar to that of an echo knight

[iron saffron]

Think of them as the same creature across the different worlds.

[cyan rose]

woah. cool

so spanning with echoes is like projecting avatars or something?

I need to go read fizbans

[iron saffron]

Not that different from deities existing across different worlds/multiverses.

[jagged apex]

yeah in 5e continuity dragons are not only tied in with the prime material plane, but also the entire multiverse, that is why they have echos or counterparts that they can absorb into themselves to further grow in power once they become powerful enough to develope the new concept introduced of dragonsight

it all ties to the recent idea of the first world and how it lead to the many worlds and gem dragons we know today, basically in the 5e continuity when that first world was destroyed and sardior was caught in the destruction, his mind, his essence, was disperced across the various worlds on the prime of the multiverse that were born out of the destruction of that original world

[white ravine]

Families of blue dragons tend to stick together, as unusual as it is for dragonkind.

[jagged apex]

and the greatwyrms in the lore of note among the gem dragons are working to gather all their echos, in hopes that one day they can reuinite/merge and basically allow Sardior to be reborn

so basically each of the strongest of gem greatwyrms is at least in 5e published lore a part of sardior working to rebuild itself and then join the others to bring back the ruby dragon himself

[jagged apex]

yeah blue dragons have a bit of a more communial nature than other chromatics, cuz of their lawful nature and how rare their prefered habitats are typically, at last going by lore across all editions

like the oldest one in a territory basically calls the shots and this is something the other blue dragons in the area more or less respect and honor

least as i recall

[jagged apex]

they are basically the counterparts of that dragon on those worlds, like the idea how in a parralel version of our world there would still be some version of you there

this stuff is basically explained across the context of the sort of chapter 0 of fizban's "Elegy for the First World"

[white ravine]

In fairness though, you expect dragons to be unbiased when talking about their own history?

[daring vessel]

obviously

[grave blade]

would anyone who isn't lawful neutral embodied be unbiased in that context?

[white ravine]

Factual? Yes. Unbiased? Not so much. You can still be truthful while exaggerating a little.

The thing about the elegy of the first world is its...well its entirely false.

Dragons may not have made the world, but tell that to a dragon and see how many dice they start rolling when they open their mouth again. With sparks.

It's the dragon's interpretation, and while it may not be the truth you sure aren't gonna convince them you know better.

[daring vessel]

that's fair, they'd recount it as it happened and make theirself sounds like the most important part rather than just another boulder in the avalanche

[white ravine]

Correct

I mean, Fizban wrote it, I'd expect nothing less from someone like him when it comes to that

[jagged apex]

given he is basically his more quirky aspect, at least in published lore, i imagine he would rarely if ever out right lie, but he may exadurate to enhance a point, but he likely only includes his bias as much as any other narrator in universe would

his personality is described here on the forgotten realms wiki, so likely even as fizban he is still like that to a degree, though seems to lean a bit more into his more quirky aspects from some of the stuff we see in the book https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Bahamut#Personality and given some of his quotes in the book like the first few "This book insists on sorting dragons into little, understandable boxes as if the readers had only 100 years or so to live and their tiny baby-brains could hold only so much knowledge…", "Poets do have a way of editing and exaggerating. I remember that time as one big, boring, patience-trying dilly-dalliance. A lot of hurry up and wait.", "It’s all too easy to prefer a certain color of dragonborn, but what’s inside is what really matters—which is to say, the sort of damage their breath can do to you.", "My favorite Ascendant Dragon monks all narrate their bodily attacks aloud with fun onomatopoeias. Swish ka-pow, indeed." so i feel any bias on his part would be accidental

after all, he is still a dragon god and dragons, god or not, their minds are just wired differently than us humanoids and mortals

like certain aspects of a draconic mind can't be overcome, or are near impossible to overcome, mainly thier pride, which is one of the things i love about dragons in dnd

[fringe dagger]

DND Beyond said that the Dragonnels employed by the Dragon Army is different from the one from Fizban’s Treasury Of Dragons.

[grave blade]

and they are, but only becaues their claw attacks do fire damage

if that wasn't the case it'd be the normal dragonnel but with armour on

[fringe dagger]

Well it’s red.

[tranquil solstice]

In 1st edition ad&d, the wish spell aged the caster 4 years each casting of the spell.

[fringe dagger]

The Dragonnels we were used to seeing were green, right?

[jagged apex]

to be fair the dragonlance book has 2 breeds, the one that are in the army and another called wasteland dragonnels

[fringe dagger]

I know, I said that previously.

[fringe dagger]

Here.

[jagged apex]

the one in fizban's is just an average example of them regardless of any specific world, so likely just a case where that artwork simply happen to be green

[grave blade]

it says they're distantly related to the 3 main types of dragons in fizbans

so colour variation makes sense

that being said, i guess dnd is also the type of game where you abstract multiple different kinds of creatures into the same statblock

unless they decide to make multiple the way there's like, 6 or so for different kinds of cattle

[jagged apex]

other breeds like the ones used in the dragonarmy, seems to imply much like kobolds and dragonborn they have a bit of variety in their possible colorations

[unkempt merlin]

looks at all the variations of cattle 5e has

[jagged apex]

yeah, cuz especially in 5e, unless is a named individual or has some more specifying thing that more or less says it is reffering to a specific variant than the average one, average is average, personally i feel this is why the 5e tarrasque lacks some of abilities and features in it's 5e statblock that were previously popular, especially in 4e, as we know that historically there was more than one tarrasque, just there was more or less only 1 on toril specifically

[fringe dagger]

Here’s a Dragon Army Dragonnel.

https://www.dndbeyond.com/attachments/10/183/red-dragon-army-dragonnel.jpg

[jagged apex]

yeah, mainly red and orangeish

just by the name i imagine the wasteland ones are more of a brownish coloration

plus they spit acid so maybe those are have some connection to copper dragons i believe are the acid spitting mettalics? but that is just my own personal speculation

but if it were to be accurate, in theory there would be reason to believe they could range in a number of the colors of their true dragon kin

[open wolf]

I feel like WotC did Iymrith really dirty

Cause she had all this stuff to her name and some reason never used it in her fight cause 5e nerfed her into oblivion

[jagged apex]

since she only did appear, to my knowledge in one of the earlier adventures in 5e's lifespan, i feel they more so did not use her to her fullest, at least if it is similar to why they had a blue dragon so easily get board in hoard of the dragon queen, cuz they had to outsource to get it and the other first wave of 5e books out at around the same time, but from lore videos i have watched she is pretty powerful, but can't say for sure as i have not gotten to play storm king's thunder and would rather not be spoiled

[fringe dagger]

Well the statblock instead pictures a black horse-like creature with dragon wings on it.

[open wolf]

She had spells that could remove your spell slots and 1000's of gargoyle and animiated metalic dragons at her disposial

[jagged apex]

pretty sure that is just the place holder image for the dragon type when a creature is not given it's own artwork

[fringe dagger]

Yeah, that’s what the lore says.

[fringe dagger]

Ok. Well the horse-like creature was black and had claws on it’s limbs.

[fringe dagger]

What is the place holder creature suppose to be anyway?

[jagged apex]

the same generic piture used in the icons for the filters in the monster galleries on dnd beyond

is basically just generic creature in the creature type in the dragon's case is basically the silloet of a red dragon from the older 5e artworks

i believe undead is lich, plant is shambling mound, aberrations beholder, monstrosity bullete, ect...

[fringe dagger]

Where in DND Beyond can I find the picture?

[jagged apex]

go to the monsters page and the icons are where those pictures are, if you make a creature of that type with no uploaded artwork when making homebrew or modifying and existing creature it will default to the respecitve one for that creature type

but anyway, back on topic to lore, double checking their description the wasteland dragonnel of krynn are indeed copper like

quote "The Northern Wastes of Ansalon are home to wasteland dragonnels, draconic creatures closely related to copper dragons. Wasteland dragonnels are lithe and quick, with scales the color of dull copper. These playful creatures defend their territory by flying out of a foe’s reach and spitting potent acid, in an approximation of their copper dragon relatives."

[fringe dagger]

I’m talking about the horse like creature, wish I can upload a picture if it but it doesn’t allow me to. Plus it doesn’t allow me to send the link for it because when I tried to it doesn’t allow it.

[fringe dagger]

But yeah, I did saw that they said it resembles a Copper Dragon.

[jagged apex]

there is no such horse like creature, at least to my knowledge

[fringe dagger]

I’ll upload it if I’m able to.

[jagged apex]

or could tell me the creature's name

[fringe dagger]

They don’t say it.

[jagged apex]

usually the name of a description of what is being depicted is somewhere

[hard temple]

why do hobgoblins hate elves?

[zenith dust]

do hobgoblins hate elves?

[hard temple]

according to the monster manual

[lime holly]

My understanding of the specific lore is dodgy but I do know that both hobgoblins and elves are originally from the feywild. Could be old territorial disputes or war grudges

[zenith dust]

I don't follow FR lore a lot, which the 5e core books pulled from to start with

[mystic merlin]

4e’s Nentir Vale setting establishes that the hobgoblin empire was first destabilized when it tried to expand into the feywild and was defeated by the elves there.

In old dragon magazines (#63) it says that hobgoblins hate elves as antithesis, the emotional and holistic ways of elves are “un-warrior-like”, undisciplined.

It also seems to just be… a hanger-on from ancient days? Elves are the stereotypical CG faction, opposed to the LE faction

[lime holly]

That's interesting. Are elves depicted as seelie fey and hobgoblins as the unseelie? I've never been exposed to much in terms of feywild politics and always assumed that the seelie and unseelie were all eladrin/elves

[iron saffron]

Mortal elves were descended from the feywild eladrin, I believe

[magic jackal]

I think the "Hobs are from the Feywild" is a more recent invention of 5e MMOTM

[magic jackal]

Don't forget, there's also a caste system among the Feywild Eladrin.
The most powerful are the so-called Noble Eladrin, and the PC race could also represent the lowest caste or second-lowest depending.
Which would be the Fey Eladrin or Common Eladrin, I'm not sure which exactly.

[magic jackal]

the Eladrin are at least historically I believe portrayed as both.

among other Fey which also fall among the courts.

[mystic merlin]

It’s a cool one, though, goblins being fairies, pressgang into service is neat.

[untold thicket]

Is primus still alive?

[iron saffron]

Which one?

[lime holly]

I recently ran a DDAL module where Primus was mentioned by name so I can only assume them to be cannonically still alive

[dry wharf]

Is there a reason they shouldn't be?

[lime holly]

Wouldn't be the first time a DDAL module got something wrong though, grain of salt

Actually, I remember reading that if Primus were destroyed they get replaced by the second highest ranked Modron right?

[iron saffron]

Last time I read a previous Primus was murdered by Orcus and he set off the Great Modron March years earlier than scheduled.

When a Primus dies a Secondus is elected to become the new Primus.

Think of the Roman Catholic cardinals gathering in Rome to elect one of themselves as the new Pope when a Pope dies (or steps down)

[untold thicket]

He was like… kinda stabbed

In the back

[dry wharf]

When was that?

[iron saffron]

Primus was murdered by Tenebrous (the then dead Orcus' "aspect") back in 2E — see the 2E Planescape module, The Great Modron March.

[gray heath]

Primus is the leader of the modrons per the 5e MM. Whether that means the 2e module is not considered canon or the modrons have a new or resurrected Primus since is unspecified.

[iron saffron]

A Secondus would have taken over the role/title of Primus.

[mystic merlin]

PRIMUS the one and the prime is indeed just going to happen naturally. When a modron falls a chain reaction of lower order modrons experience a promotion.

[hazy fox]

To be honest, Planescape I know from video game.
So any idea if there will be nods to Torment though? Homer Simpson voicing modron, Yakko Warner the skull, Tiefling and I think either Succubus or Aasimar. That and Nameless one.

[mystic merlin]

Does anyone remember when Khelendros tried to make a host body for Kitiara’s shade and created a new sort of hand-dragon thing way after the war of the Lance?

He and some other chromatic began like, absorbing the mana from other dragons and there were five massively powerful dragon rulers and that was it?

[fierce dragon]

[Eberron] Do cameras and photography exist or are they widespread at the technological level in Eberron's world? I think there might already be a culture of taking portraits in photo studios. What do you guys think?
"In the Eberron world, it would be nice to have this level of technology," or "I think that xx in the modern world can be replaced to some extent by magic in Eberron."
This is the kind of thing I think about.

[jagged apex]

my money is likely do to countless generations under the propoganda and rule of Maglubiyet, who basically took over all the pantheons of goblinoids and submitted to them to his rule, killing those that refused, but otherwise from what i know of is because elves embody basically everything they despise, thus consider being called an elf a grave insult, though again i think this may be do to being molded to fit their role in overall goblinoids under maglubiyet's rule

[jagged apex]

personally if wanting to know for sure, likely be best to hit up the setting's original creator, keith baker, on twitter, he tends to be rather quick to reply, at least in my experiance compared to like if you were to hit up someone from wizards of the coast

one thing i know is that funny enough, despite popular misconceptions, it is one dnd world were the firearm has yet to be invented, but settings like the forgotten realms have them, even if they are not that wide spread and thus rather pricy, which i find a little funny

[jagged apex]

do to the taint left by orcus/tenebrous, one of the ones up for the position was corrupted and after basically going rogue in all the ways they could for the challenge to determine the new primus, causes it and a group of rogue modrons to migrate to i believe it was acheron

[white ravine]

Yup. Then mechanus got raided by ant people.

[jagged apex]

the demon prince of undeath really kind of accidently screwed the clockwork Nirvana even in defeat

though i forget if the Formian were native to the plane before that, just that their main colonies are on mechanus and arcadia

[white ravine]

Pfft, accidently?

[jagged apex]

yeah, like pretty sure was not part of his plan

[white ravine]

Well, not entirely no. But do you think he'd say it wasn't intentional?

[jagged apex]

he was basically focused on getting his wand back over everything else and defintitely was not planing on being rekilled

[jagged apex]

given his hatred for all other life in the mulitverse, i doubt it, cuz he'd likely just kill us and raise us as a mindless form of undead if we were to ask XD

also apparently the Formians are also known as "Ant-Centaurs" which is fitting all be it rather on the nose given their appearance
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/2/26/Formian.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20150719213757

[white ravine]

I mean, how else would you design it?

Already got thri kreen, so the two legged four armed bug is off the table

Two legs and two arms isnt even a bug, so thats a bust

Also apparently formians also reside on Arcadia.

So...yeah.

[jagged apex]

not saying it is bad, just a bit on the nose cuz like how lizardfolk call themselves the name of their god's mate, Kecuala

[white ravine]

Oh no, nor am I

[white ravine]

Also, huh?

...Actually that does make sense, be weird if they called themselves lizardfolk.

Be like us calling ourselves gibbonkin

[jagged apex]

like not all alternative names are so on the nose, like thri-kreen being known as mantis warriors despite only one of the major kinds resembling a mantis

[jagged apex]

by the way, in 2e they apparently looked like this https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/b/b8/Formian_2e.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20221206183111

[white ravine]

I know, it's atrocious...

Not as bad as the 1e secundus

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/f/f7/Secundus-1e.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/341?cb=20171006185105

Man's posted up like he's gigachad

[novel dew]

cameras don't really exist no. what people do sometimes to kinda fit in with the setting is to use something with Minor Illusion inside it to capture and project the image, and then a skilled artist nearby recreates that image on paper or another medium

that's how the various newspapers can have pictures, actually

[spark haven]

Prestidigitation lets you "soil an object" permanently. With a lenient enough interpretation, that could count as a printer/copier

[main palm]

a question is there a famous evil silver dragon in the lore?

[lucid wren]

I don’t think so? Given the fact that metallic dragons are usually always good I don’t think there would be one, though correct me if I’m wrong

[fierce dragon]

I wonder if Eberron's printing situation is such that they can record and project an illusion of a scene, but they cannot output it to photographic paper, so they ask an artist to draw a pattern of the projected scene, which is then printed in the newspaper.(I am submitting the text translated by the tool)

[novel dew]

There's no reason for them to have. remember: Eberron's tech tree is not our tech tree. hell they have Gnomes with magic writing birthmarks to transcribe stuff, including images

very little reason to develop paths as we are used to

[analog oxide]

the death of primus happens in the story forwards in Dead Gods. does Modron March go into it in more detail???

[unkempt merlin]

Eberrons tech tree is "its not tech, it's magic"

[mystic merlin]

Bug yes, insect no

[eager bay]

How do you see the Vancian magic system justified in-game?

Not the spell slots, but specifically the fire-and-forget part (3.5e and prior ofc)

[mystic merlin]

I don’t think there are any new answers out there for you, especially here instead of DM chat

[halcyon laurel]

Yo please tell me stuff like yellow dragons and Tiamat's dead sister isn't canon

[iron saffron]

Yellow dragons were in previous editions but they're not official in 5E (Fizban's retconned out a bunch of non-PHB dragons such as yellow, brown, purple, and song dragons)

[halcyon laurel]

It's just feels so stupid

[iron saffron]

How so?

I've never heard of Tiamat having a dead sister in all my years of playing D&D.

[halcyon laurel]

lol here's my OC dragon race that can beat most dragon colors in a fight through their cunning and speed despite dragons (Whites excluded) being notoriously cunning and the speed advantage being too minor to really do anything

[iron saffron]

Well, 5E retconned the non-PHB dragons from previous editions so you're not obligated to follow that. The lore at your table supercedes what WotC says is so for 5E.

[halcyon laurel]

Also Tiamat having a sister just feels wrong to me because there's already Bahamut and stuff

[iron saffron]

Okay... your table, your lore.

[halcyon laurel]

In general I don't like people introducing new species that are just better

[iron saffron]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[halcyon laurel]

I can dislike some lore without the solution being "Alright just retcon that out of your world"

[iron saffron]

Well, this is falling under #homebrew territory

[halcyon laurel]

No because I'm not talking about my world

I'm talking about D&D canon

[iron saffron]

You brought up your OC dragon race that can OP other dragons.

[crude blaze]

Sounds like you’re talking about non-lore

I don’t remember Tiamat having a dead sister, the closest thing to a dead relative she has that I can think of is 5E’s Sardior

[halcyon laurel]

It's not my OC dragon race

I should've put it in quotes

[spark haven]

Unless "I think yellow dragons are stupid" is something a character in-universe said, the sentiment probably isn't that useful or relevant in lore discussions, IMO. If you don't like pieces of lore, you don't have to use them or consume content that contains them

[halcyon laurel]

Yellow dragons were introduced in an edition of dragon magazine in 1982

[iron saffron]

Okay...

Again 5E Fizban's retconned them out. You're free to accept that or ignore it.

[halcyon laurel]

Just wanted to discuss them. If they're retconned I'm happy

[iron saffron]

Read Fizban's (which is essentially the 5E Dragonomicon as it had the same writer as the previous one).

[oblique blade]

whats the different between bladesinging and ellistrae cleric dance spell

[iron saffron]

#dnd-elder-editions perhaps?

[oblique blade]

isnt this lore

but aight

[iron saffron]

You're asking about gameplay mechanics of the differences, no?

[oblique blade]

and the actual lore difference

seems to me they do the same thing

[halcyon laurel]

If I'm already here

What are lesser known types of dragons (Canonic please)

[iron saffron]

I would have to drag out my 2E book and I'm at work...

[crude blaze]

One’s a legacy spell, the other is a subclass. That’s essentially the mechanical and narrative difference, no?

[halcyon laurel]

More important than my question, have as much fun as you can there lol

[oblique blade]

i think theres an orange variant that spews sodium

[halcyon laurel]

I think it's from the same place as the yellow and purple dragons

[iron saffron]

i'm a game dev working from home. Sure thanks.

[halcyon laurel]

Ah nice

[iron saffron]

Youtuber Dungeon Dad covered a bunch of the chromatic and metallic lesser known variants from Dragon Magazine, including yellow, purple, and orange. There's also brown, iron, admantine, fang, song, and deep from the top of my head (I was just looking at the 3.5E Monsters of Faerun this morning)

[mystic merlin]

Tiamat’s dead sister I’ve never heard of. Dragons of other colors are real.

OMYAC the OC thing was pronounceable taking a mocking tone not bringing up their own homebrew.

[halcyon laurel]

Yes

I am deeply insecure of my own homebrew

[iron saffron]

Yes, I understand that now — it was their lack of using quotes so I took the statement at face value.

[halcyon laurel]

Yeah it's my fault

[jagged apex]

not sure if i am the only one, but i feel moonstone dragons would be fitting at least thematically to join silver dragons along side the favorite monsters of Sehanine Moonbow, given how in 5e they are basically intertwined with the fey and dreams, not to mention they historically are known for being skilled in white necromancy, the one kind of necromancy she is described to even tolerate

like i get gem dragons are neutral typically, but i feel it would not be too far fetched for some moonstones to be in the service or answer the occasional request of the lady of dreams

[vagrant inlet]

Dragon Magazine 213 page 97 just in case

[cyan rose]

someone tell me a story about a dragon pls

a cool one

[vagrant inlet]

hey what do u mean new users

lies and slander

[halcyon laurel]

I only know about the white dragon that flies with a corpse mounted on her

Wait there are other colors

[vagrant inlet]

https:// www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/seo6le/the_tale_of_barnaby_the_brass_dragon/

[halcyon laurel]

:O

[cyan rose]

arventurace is good or however you spell

[halcyon laurel]

Then I know about other dragons

[halcyon laurel]

This is the lore channel so that doesn't really fit

[vagrant inlet]

true but thats still a cool story

[halcyon laurel]

I only know about some of the most iconic ones of some colors

[vagrant inlet]

i will try to find something else

[halcyon laurel]

Daurgathoth, Inferno, Humanboo green dragon, Might change the world steel dragon, Arventurace and Golem army blue dragon

[cyan rose]

I wanted COOL, not to FEEL

[halcyon laurel]

Also ethereal gold dragon

[cyan rose]

but now I'm feeling things

[cyan rose]

you've been watching a lot of Rhexx huh 🙂

[halcyon laurel]

Brass dragons suck

[halcyon laurel]

Yes

Too much

I binged all of the dragon color videos

Might strike up dragon anatomy next

[cyan rose]

people say he's full of it, his sources are wrong
but I enjoy his videos and style quite a lot, so rock on I say

[halcyon laurel]

I love dragons

[halcyon laurel]

I don't play D&D so I don't care that much

I just like the stories

[cyan rose]

the white one was one of the best
have you seen the one on Zamzyr whatever

alchemy dragon

[halcyon laurel]

Yes

The steel dragon

[cyan rose]

loved that one too

[halcyon laurel]

Started with the dracolich and turns out he's really similar to a dragon I made

[cyan rose]

daurgothoth?

I hope you didn't make a bone melting dragon

[halcyon laurel]

Yes daurgothoth

In short it's a kobold wizard that believes that while every kobold is born with some dragon traits he was born with the mind of one, so through self made rituals he made himself into a multichromatic dragon

I have a character sheet almost ready for him but I'm having troubles choosing the feats

When I'm done I'm gonna make an alternate one because there were some things I'm not sure about

[vagrant inlet]

Short story that made me laugh for a few days DM 180

My house was minor damaged by Tiamat and
when I almost killed her she always go back to
the 9 plains of hell. This happens about 3 times
every 6 months in D&D terms. I want to put a
stop to her coming and destroying my house,
friends, and most importantly my hit points.
Can you tell me how.

[cyan rose]

simply die and tiamat leaves you alone