#And now... I am having this
steep zephyr
In a thread, logically ^^
Though offtopic isn't really welcome either way
There isn't really any "chatting" normally, more so multiple separate topics at the same time which on paper should've been made into (non-forum) threads
In my view a forum channel would help the issue of multiple separate conversations going at the same time, as that's almost always what the active discussions are
It could make convesations harder to follow since they're now all in different threads, but on the other hand topics easier to find because the threads are named by topic
Pretty common for someone to ask about something that I had been talking about literally in the above post so people not reading before posting will not be better or worse I'm sure
regal nimbus
Threads in channels never work. I see many servers trying to get people to use these sub-threads but they usually instantly die and are ignored.
steep zephyr
You have valid concerns but time will tell if they go from concerns to critiques
regal nimbus
I don't think Unity has to care either way, its not their job to maintain a chat hub
Other servers exist
steep zephyr
Discussions here are somewhat different than in other places, since there's no aforementioned chatting allowed normally
regal nimbus
But Photon fell into that same trap, trying to manage the conversation, and just ended up with more people chatting on top of one another in fewer channels - and having basically a non-web-accessible Forum part 2
The point of moving to Discord when I joined and insisted they start a Discord, was because it creates a community of people who support one another in a way you don't get with Forums.
steep zephyr
Unity's community manager implements these changes because they care about the place
Not that it can't be a misstep but it's only doom and gloom if problems do arise and they won't get addressed
regal nimbus
Its easy to reverse if they decide it didn't work
With photon we mostly just ended up just actively scolding bad actors, but generally letting the chat do what it was going to do
steep zephyr
If it means anything I appreciate your efforts here
And if you want to influence these changes in a positive direction, your best and perhaps only way to do so is to focus on the results and point to them if they prove your concerns
Expecting the worst at this point will not result in changes, and will only sour your disposition towards the place, even if it didn't come to pass after all
regal nimbus
I could, but the results will just be lack of conversation - which isn't something anyone will notice
I can't really point at anything and say "Hey look some people would have been having a lively conversation here - but instead there is nothing"
Its proving a negative
The tangible thing that is real and immediate is they have created a Forum that exists only in this black box
Which - is just counter to how the web works
steep zephyr
Regular users' experiences with the channels are considered, they don't have to be "proven"
But they do have to be experiences, not expectations
steep zephyr
Which - is just counter to how the web works
That's just Discord as a whole
Whether it be a chat channel, threads or forums threads within it they're all equally hidden
The change is only in categorization of messages
regal nimbus
Yeah, they know what they are doing. I don't really know their objective or what they were concerned about with general chat channels - so I can't comment on if this works toward whatever goal they have in mind
Its not just a catagorization though. The Rendering threads already have a fraction of the conversation happening. And I know I am not checking them. If I am going to check forums on these topics I would just be checking forums. So I know I am not longer learning/helping there and it looks like others are going silent as well.
On discord, the only thing that is ever lively is the root of channels. Everything else gets lost/ignored
IMO at least and from what I see on all of the servers I use
steep zephyr
We don't have to know the objectives, all we need is comparative experience using the old and new channels that gives us a valuable position to give our experience with them as feedback (politely and non-dramatically)
regal nimbus
"Move this convo to a thread..."
*Thread dies instantly and so does the conversation
We are doing this here now, but this may as well be a PM
steep zephyr
But if I were to guess it's because the format of conversations never was "chatting" anyway, just invidual issues that were functionally non-threaded threads
regal nimbus
No one else is reading or joining this conversation
steep zephyr
"Move this convo to a thread..."
*Thread dies instantly and so does the conversa...
I believe this is because by the time it's obvious that it should've been a thread, it's been going on for long enough that the problem is typically solved
regal nimbus
Hasn't been my experience, but I am only one person
Either way, nothing to be solved here
The choice has been made by them, and it will come to whatever outcome comes
steep zephyr
Its not just a catagorization though. The Rendering threads already have a fract...
Something to note that a result of this change is that categories have been re-hidden until users have unhidden them from the channel directly again
Discord's quirk
Not to say I don't share the concern that it's too hidden anyway, or inversely too general so it becomes a mess of topics
But no reason to be convinced I'm right about those when I can just wait and see
regal nimbus
Outside of any of the quirks of discord - there is just no place now for anyone to just generally discuss the concepts/philosphies/quirks of URP or lighting outside of answering a specific question.
I won't be checking the channels (there are none to check now) so I will just move on - so I won't be really around to see how it turns out
I'm sure as hell not monitoring code-general. 🙂
steep zephyr
Outside of any of the quirks of discord - there is just no place now for anyone ...
Threads can be for any relevant topic, not just for issues
steep zephyr
I won't be checking the channels (there are none to check now) so I will just mo...
Worst case scenario the channels will be untenable for a week or a few
Or worstest scenario they'll be untenable forever
And people will find some other place to be, not that big of a deal
But in any event I think it's not very rational to refuse to see what the effects in reality will turn out to be
regal nimbus
Yeah, there are plenty of servers. I am not going to cry about it. Just wanted to ask what was up before moving on
I don't refuse to see, there is just nothing to look at
This is literally what there is now. Its dead and not work checking
steep zephyr
Not willing to observe the results would also seem to require a belief that they're unable to improve things in the event it turns out to be bad
regal nimbus
I'll check that threads now and then sure. But having had Threads on the Photon channel (where I am a subject matter expert) I was rarely inspired to check/respond. I don't see much happening with Lighting/URP where I am a novice
steep zephyr
As I mentioned most people who come here during today will not see the category at all, and ones who do have not gotten used to looking at the new channels within
regal nimbus
What channel is there to monitor now then? Maybe I am missing the hub of chat activity?
steep zephyr
Obviously people require time to adjust even outside of technical reasons as mentioned
regal nimbus
I'll poke around now and then and see what is up
steep zephyr
Emotional investment in this server is good but I hope you can view this change objectively and productively
regal nimbus
Realistically what I come to Discord channels for, is not what Unity is looking to provide here. And that is fine, its their discord
steep zephyr
I do share basically all of your concerns
But that's all I see them as, only concerns until proven otherwise
regal nimbus
I literally walked from my own Photon server after leaving the company because I couldn't tolerate one of my old co-devs being a tyrant on the server. I am not really going to be emotionally connected to the Unity one 🙂
Discord servers come and go constantly, and Unity might change in the future back into something that has channels of interest to me. No skin off my back or theirs in the meantime. I also have no friends here. Its literally transactional
steep zephyr
And an opportunity for something better, either if we're lucky enough to be wrong, or if this gives the community manager perspective from our feedback to find a better way
regal nimbus
Are you actually with Unity then?
steep zephyr
No, just a regular
regal nimbus
The community managers are not the most present, so I can't really engage or share my experiences running one
And I definitely don't know what mandates they are getting from above or internally
Or even what problems they were experiencing they are trying to solve
Either way, dead horse fully beaten here 🙂
We overlap on a couple servers so I am sure we will run into each other somewhere else sometime
And if I run into a URP snafu I will ping you in a post here. 🙂
steep zephyr
The community managers are not the most present, so I can't really engage or sha...
Anyone can reach the appropriate persons for feedback but that avenue is really not advertised
Obviously because they don't want a deluge of very impulsive opinions whenever anything changes in a server this size
And obviously it should be polite and matter-of-fact
That part can also get easier if you build recognition over time as a level headed helpful individual
regal nimbus
Yeah, they don't know me. Not my place or problem to solve. And it will resolve out how it resolves out
steep zephyr
Or even what problems they were experiencing they are trying to solve
I can say that they are trying to improve things
Beyond that it doesn't practically matter to us
Either it works or it doesn't, and they will try to assess the success of the changes which is something regular users' feedback can aid with
Having strong beliefs about what will and won't work would only matter if we were implementing the changes
But since the changes are implemented, only the results and our experience over time matters
steep zephyr
We overlap on a couple servers so I am sure we will run into each other somewher...
Perhaps!
I've always found this place the most habitable, compared to say UDC
Free of noise, and a "tight ship"
Which are also the most divisive qualities of this place
regal nimbus
I have found the servers to kind of go through waves of useful/non-useful but what is useful for me may not be for others.
steep zephyr
And if I run into a URP snafu I will ping you in a post here. 🙂
You can do that, although I'm not much of an expert
Unless exposure to URP eventually makes me one ^^
regal nimbus
You are the closest I have seen to an expert in the channel
the photon discord was different in that way in that we as devs actually checked it, so if you asked a question there was a good chance a dev would chime in - so there was a very different vibe there. Unity obviously can't have that.
steep zephyr
You are the closest I have seen to an expert in the channel
Purely because it's hard to back away from a challenge
regal nimbus
So it very much relies on non-employee experts like yourself
Which at least with our Discord was always the goal, to try and get people talking so that user experts would be active and answer more questions so we didn't have to. Which did happen
But those user experts were there because of the free conversation, it felt social
without the social aspect, there is no compelling reason for them to "check forums" to see if there are qestions they can answer. Because that is work.
Unity may have different ideas/goals
But their Networking channel used to be full of Photon guys, just helping people out
And we all left overtime, because it become less and less friendly to just meeting people and being social
steep zephyr
I suppose there are varying types of experts in that regard
Idle conversations are wearisome, and a distraction from solving problems
regal nimbus
I think most of the convo moved to GDL for a while, and then just stopped when friendly places to talk networking dried up
regal nimbus
I suppose there are varying types of experts in that regard
Idle conversations a...
It is a balance for sure, and a hard one to manage
But the first question is what are they trying to achieve with this discord
And I don't know the answer to that
steep zephyr
The no-chat rules of this place create a particular type of culture, that some fit in and some do not
regal nimbus
The restrictiveness defintely drove all of the networking guys away. We went off to personal discord servers where all the networking nerds hang out
Experts rarely get anything out of discord channels and only end up giving. So the only currency discord servers offer them is some positive social aspect
And that almost always comes in the form of an ego feed
steep zephyr
I spent some time there during an MP project and it did seem to work as a more balanced and less strict enviornment, but it was also much smaller than this place
regal nimbus
for better or worse
I think networking now is just people using unity's networking library
Any convo about Photon, Mirror other libraries are all just referred to their respective discord servers
I don't even know, I don't even look in that channel
But that goes to the point of subject experts being driven away. I am here and I see the channel. I have no interest in even clicking on it
steep zephyr
On the other hand if I had to deal with people forming some kind of "community" and talking about their day while I solve lighting issues it would drive me away, I expect
regal nimbus
Talking about their day kind of stuff generally needs to be actively scolded yeah
I am seeing a trend of trying to move it to a thread, and I see that failing. So I don't know the answer other than just having the correct number of channels so that all conversations have a place to go, and that place isn't buried in too much convo
steep zephyr
When you've got like 50K or however many users you basically have to have a zero tolerance for offtopic, or you'll be dealing with personal issues or people being vaguely disruptive and finding ways to skirt rules all of the time basically
No envy to community managers of viral games
regal nimbus
Forums in my experience are a fail (they work, but at a huge hidden cost by overlapping with web forums). Threads are just conversation graveyards.
I am totally ok with coming down hard and fast on off-topics, in a nice way
But even that I personally always just scaled with how busy a channel was
If no other conversations where happening and it got a bit off, whatever. But if an off-topic was stomping on an on topic discussion, it was time for it to move.
But that also comes down to differences in how people treat channel history
Some people come back to channels and read everything that they missed, some people (like myself) only look at what is recent
But I fall on the side of conversation is more important than treating channels like a Forum. Discord exists to encourage people to talk to one another. If you are treating your channels as sacred on-topic only things - you basically have created a messy forum. IMO
steep zephyr
It's not uncommon I'm solving three different issues in the same channel interlaced with each other, and it's still hard to make the decision to thread them
So I'm at least a tiny bit optimistic that having them be threads to begin with will improve that part
In that case it was impossible to have another conversation next to them but now it could also be its own thread
Visibility is a valid concern for sure though
regal nimbus
You and I even having this conversation at all would never happen in a forum context
steep zephyr
But I fall on the side of conversation is more important than treating channels ...
Given this is the situation, yes
regal nimbus
But that again comes down to their priorities here, which I don't know
steep zephyr
You and I even having this conversation at all would never happen in a forum con...
It could've been a thread in Rendering just as well
But it would've been offtopic
And now admittably is particularly so
regal nimbus
I only know what mine where at Photon. And I had no mandates coming from Chris (the owner). So my mandate was simple, make it appealing to user-experts.
As a forum thread though the entire thing is different. It is like the difference in writing emails vs text messages
This conversation would not have happened in a forum thread, because I would not be participating. I would have made one post and then never returned to it
I don't do forums, not interested in forums
steep zephyr
From my experience here having a conversation (or a thread just the same) to complain about a meta issue would rather quickly stop being productive at all if more than two people were participating
And if it's just two it might as well be in DMs
In both cases not allowing it would be pragmatic
regal nimbus
Of course, I wouldn't have continued this conversation in the Post Processing channel either
Thus my "Where do I even have this conversation about there needing to be a conversation?" question
The entire setup is not conducive to conversation
steep zephyr
I don't do forums, not interested in forums
Also, given this is your position (and that of many others for sure) it's almost impossible to have a constructive argument about it
So pragmatically conversation at all is pointless
regal nimbus
I mean, I use Discord because I want Discord. Forums already exist and are prefectly usable if I want them.
I have a Unity account and can check them. But I don't 🙂 Because I don't care nor want to LOL
steep zephyr
Though, as mentioned this server was functionally a messy forum to begin with
regal nimbus
As it will be, if Discord is trying to act like a forum or forum replacement
Its not, Discord is (REALTIME) conversation
Forums are forums
steep zephyr
The line is somewhat blurred if you think about it
regal nimbus
The realtime part is what matters, imo
You are talking in realtime to another person, and it is very different - for me at least
The issue just is that people like the realtime convo thing so much, that they come here first for everything... even things that a forum is better for
steep zephyr
Some forums are more or less giving you realtime updates when others post, even adding new messages to the thread
regal nimbus
Some forums are more or less giving you realtime updates when others post, even ...
Theoretically, just like email. But just like email.... its not
steep zephyr
Discord on the other hand isn't indexed so it's culturally a loss to use it for development issues
Although since messages are scrapeable, there are indexes for Discord out there also
regal nimbus
I don't know the answer on how to bridge the gap. I just know that the realtime aspect is the appeal of discord, and for whatever real or imagined reason it leads to actual social vibes etc that forums never do
One of my best friends and the guy who makes all of Photon's tech and soon to be neighbor when I move to Sweden, I met either on Unity discord or GDL.... never would have happened in this current format
steep zephyr
If a forum updated in realtime fully rather than partially, and if discord was searchable externally rather than internally there would hardly even be a difference
All that remains is vague UX differences
regal nimbus
The fact that we could realtime talk tech and sidetrack off into some personal stuff and back to tech WAS important and why we came to the server
Without that, Discord becomes as sterile as a forum
We now exist with other guys we met on our own private servers we we can do just that
Which is fine for us, but a loss for networking channels on public discords
They cleaned up our off topic chatter, but they lost us
steep zephyr
The fact that we could realtime talk tech and sidetrack off into some personal s...
That's funny because I was supposed to be safe here from that kind of thing!
regal nimbus
Yeah, different people have different uses for Discord. So there is no right or wrong answer
steep zephyr
Not that it's regrettable
I usually form more of a quiet mutual understanding passively with users who do the same thing for a long while
regal nimbus
But its a real risk, not theoretical. Networking drove away its experts because it was not hospitable to just talking like two experts
Two experts are still humans and don't want to format their conversation like its a corporate email
steep zephyr
Inevitable, to an extent
regal nimbus
Its also going to be more inevitable that it will not be welcome on a server for a large corporate entity
They have to keep everything tidy, so its just not really the place
steep zephyr
Unity's size and publicity causes a very unfiltered influx of users
So you do have to have more exclusive communities adjacent to it
regal nimbus
At some point, you need to have discord admins with some sense of context
steep zephyr
There's not really any sanctioned way for people to be able to form those external communities, but it's a hard problem to solve from the server's perspective
regal nimbus
I am not them, and I have no idea what kind of resources they employ for discord. But I would like to have seen a more active channel presence by admins who actually know the people in the channel.
steep zephyr
And if you run a place this size for years it's pretty likely you just decide it's not your burden to give randoms networking avenues when it means letting the wildest of the bunch to get personal with everyone also
Intersting to consider if you plan to be in that kind of position
regal nimbus
I am no longer in the Photon channel so I can't see how they are holding up after they tried to move conversations into the forum threads, but it wasn't going well when I left. They ended up with both regular channels and forums, which just led to a lot of crossposting
That entire server size wise was about equivalent to the #archived-networking channel here, so the scale is different
But the goal I assume was the same. Get user experts to help novices
We were also very liberal with allowing people to vent/complain in the channels as long as it was never personal
So we had some cranky super users who were very vocal in opposition to things we chose to do with the software, and we didn't try to silence them.
steep zephyr
When people ask me how to find developer communities usually I recommend collabs and game jams since those give a far, far better insight into personality compatibility than just chatting
Unity does have a collab section on the web forum, incidentally
Kind of a messy wild west type of place in comparison
regal nimbus
That might lead them to that outcome here as well. Both open channels that are a bit messy in addition to Forum threads
You just have to actively scold people about crossposting, because they will
Its strange that unity has it that way, because I would personally want to keep the web stuff tidy (its permanent and searchable) and worry less about channels (they pass and are forgotten)
Channels to me should be untidy and just a firehose of chat
Because this is the only place that makes sense
steep zephyr
It's better that there's no parallel chat channel this time, when the point is to make sure people do use it to get accurate results if they work or not
regal nimbus
"Getting accurate results" was a later mandate for the Photon discord, which I felt was kind of a lost cause and a misuse of the platform
If you want accurate results, make better fucking documentation.
Discord is for conversation. Period. IMHO
If something comes up often on Discord, that is the people telling you you failed in your docs
steep zephyr
Accurate results in people utilizing the forum channel correctly / at all, I mean
regal nimbus
And photon definitely fails in its docs
Ah, for Photon it was a concern that bad answers existed - which I thought was a fools errand to try and stop
If you want to avoid bad answers, then make the right answers easier to find in the docs or have more presence on the disord/forums to give correct answers
Trying to curate Discord is madness imo
I would only concern myself with making sure Discord is welcoming to the majority of people who join it
steep zephyr
Madness they made work here somehow in their own way
regal nimbus
And concern myself with things that make it off-putting in a harmful way. It is fine if they join discord and decide chatting to people is not their thing - they can always go to the forums. But they shouldn't feel ick about it is all.
regal nimbus
Madness they made work here somehow in their own way
I assume it works for them. I have no idea what their metrics are vs what their goals are
No discord "fails", all discords fail up. The worst software Discord will still have users
The only question ever is whether it is talking some pressure off some other part of customer support, is it promoting the products usage, and is it doing more good than harm
Which are all pretty low bars to get over
steep zephyr
I guess there can be many metrics
In my view it only really matters that the server does not descend into chaos and effectively become about something else uncontrolled
For that moderators will need to be able to uphold rules and maintain safety
And for that you need rules and an environment that are compatible with the moderators as individuals
regal nimbus
I never felt like the URP or Lighting channels were having that issue?
Keeping a server mostly free of chaos is a pretty easy task with only a small amount of moderation
I did see a few people making general negative complaints about the RPs, I hope that isn't what prompted the closing of the channels
steep zephyr
Because moderators are individuals, they bring with them their way of doing things
Because they have certain high standards for order, they seek to enforce it in channel structure as well
regal nimbus
Like why is URP/Lighting gone ... but not like ProBuilder? LOL
URP and Lighting are way more general and have room for general conversation about the theory/quirks involved than many of the channels that exist.
Or is like Post Processing moving to Rendering soon too?
I may just be more annoyed than average, because I literally only followed 2 channels on this entire discord, and they just moved those two to archives 🙂