#archived-networking | Official Unity Discord | Page 69

jade glacier Apr 4, 2020, 4:33 PM

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Just get the pv

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And use it

dusk basalt Apr 4, 2020, 4:33 PM

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alright thanks !

slim ridge Apr 4, 2020, 4:34 PM

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unless you actually print the value you are assuming what it is :D
murdering assumptions is an important programming skill

dusk basalt Apr 4, 2020, 4:34 PM

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I did, thats how i found out it sends the "ID" of the local Player, because i "printed" the actually ID on the UI to test it

jade glacier Apr 4, 2020, 4:35 PM

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Especially in networking, where debugging is 10x harder

empty yew Apr 4, 2020, 11:23 PM

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debugging is the same. just come here and someone 10,000,000x smarter will fix it for you

high night Apr 4, 2020, 11:24 PM

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While loops with network time related conditions are giving me debug nightmares mostly
(Stuff that i did to have my own controlled FixedUpdate-like update)

dusk basalt Apr 4, 2020, 11:32 PM

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@empty yew sorry that i ask questions

empty yew Apr 4, 2020, 11:32 PM

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?

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I didn't even read your message

dusk basalt Apr 4, 2020, 11:33 PM

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Ah sorry, i thought you are reffering to me

slim ridge Apr 4, 2020, 11:45 PM

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lol bargos i do that too

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networking + unity physics = no.

spring crane Apr 5, 2020, 1:38 AM

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@slim ridge Doing Unity physics stuff or PhysX stuff?

slim ridge Apr 5, 2020, 1:39 AM

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unity. the way fixedupdate works makes timing a nightmare

spring crane Apr 5, 2020, 1:42 AM

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Yea I've seen mentions about that. Seems like a lot of people are jumping on to take advantage of the more predictable physics for networking stuff

jade glacier Apr 5, 2020, 2:05 AM

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For all of my networking I had to create my own singleton that runs at the earliest exec timing and another that runs at latest, and I use that to reconstruct a "PrePhysX" and "PostPhsyX" master callback.

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not having an actual PostSimulate in monobs is a real problem for good tick based networking.

golden breach Apr 5, 2020, 2:44 AM

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Hey I was wondering if anyone who knows there way around Photon Networking could dm me or something BC im having some problems

empty yew Apr 5, 2020, 2:45 AM

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You can ask your question in here

golden breach Apr 5, 2020, 2:45 AM

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Ok thanks

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Im having trouble updating an int on all photon clients

jade glacier Apr 5, 2020, 2:50 AM

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I assume you mean PUN, and I assume you are using an RPC?

golden breach Apr 5, 2020, 2:53 AM

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I am using PUN and I have tried using an RPC and OnPhotonSerialzedView but I'm new to this and nothing has worked so I'm assuming I implemented them wrong

jade glacier Apr 5, 2020, 2:53 AM

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Probably yeah

golden breach Apr 5, 2020, 2:55 AM

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If I were to show you the scripts do u think you could help?

jade glacier Apr 5, 2020, 2:57 AM

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Dunno, can't hurt to try and form a question or isolate some code to show.

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You haven't actually asked a question, you just kind of stated that you are lost.

golden breach Apr 5, 2020, 2:58 AM

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Yup

jade glacier Apr 5, 2020, 2:58 AM

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So, give it your best shot.

golden breach Apr 5, 2020, 2:58 AM

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I'm uploading pictures

jade glacier Apr 5, 2020, 2:58 AM

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have you done the tutorials on the Exit site?

golden breach Apr 5, 2020, 2:58 AM

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📎 image0.jpg 📎 image1.jpg

jade glacier Apr 5, 2020, 2:59 AM

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typically you want to use like hatebin.com or if its short code like that use the ```cs yourcode ``` format in here.

golden breach Apr 5, 2020, 2:59 AM

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U lost me there

jade glacier Apr 5, 2020, 2:59 AM

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yeah, you are miles away

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do the tutorials first

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you will never guess how to code for networking

golden breach Apr 5, 2020, 3:00 AM

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I've done a few but none on the hashbin thing

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I read about it in some documentation

jade glacier Apr 5, 2020, 3:01 AM

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hastebin is for posting code, not for the networking dev part

golden breach Apr 5, 2020, 3:01 AM

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Sorry hash something

jade glacier Apr 5, 2020, 3:02 AM

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But you aren't even calling any of the PUN callbacks for networking there, so unless its somewhere else - you are entirely missing all of the connecting and responding to connection callbacks.

golden breach Apr 5, 2020, 3:02 AM

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Yes I deleted that so you could see the code but I'll try and recreate it

jade glacier Apr 5, 2020, 3:03 AM

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Have you gotten the tutorial working?

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If you start with that you can then start adding your own things to learn how to do it.

golden breach Apr 5, 2020, 3:03 AM

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📎 image0.jpg

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Sorry here's what I had b4

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And if you have any recommendations I've tried quite a few tutorials and they haven't been working for me

jade glacier Apr 5, 2020, 3:04 AM

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I would start with the tutorials that come with it

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https://doc.photonengine.com/en-us/pun/current/getting-started/pun-intro

Introduction | Photon Engine

Photon Unity Networking framework for realtime multiplayer games and applications with no punchthrough issues. Export to all Unity supported platforms, no matter what Unity license you have!

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Have you made a Unity game before? Or at least mostly completed one?

golden breach Apr 5, 2020, 3:06 AM

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Yes but networking is always something I've hated

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Anyway the code up above in my 3rd picture seemed similar to the code in the GameLogic section

jade glacier Apr 5, 2020, 3:08 AM

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Still not a question really, sorry.

golden breach Apr 5, 2020, 3:09 AM

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Why isn't it working

jade glacier Apr 5, 2020, 3:09 AM

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You are missing a lot of things, I haven't seen any code yet that you have where OnJoinedRoom and such are being used so I really can't say anything.

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Its not working because you have bugs in your code.... that is all I can say.

golden breach Apr 5, 2020, 3:09 AM

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Those are in different scripts

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And that works

jade glacier Apr 5, 2020, 3:10 AM

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You are connecting and seeing the other player objects?

golden breach Apr 5, 2020, 3:10 AM

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Yep

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I just need to sync this variable

jade glacier Apr 5, 2020, 3:11 AM

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and you have wired your component up to the PhotonView IObservables?

golden breach Apr 5, 2020, 3:11 AM

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Yep

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I set the script not the transform

jade glacier Apr 5, 2020, 3:11 AM

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And debug.log calls inside of your serialization methods are firing indicating that they are being called to write and read?

golden breach Apr 5, 2020, 3:12 AM

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I didn't debug it

jade glacier Apr 5, 2020, 3:12 AM

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why does the pasted code have two identical IOnSerialize methods?

golden breach Apr 5, 2020, 3:12 AM

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Dang

jade glacier Apr 5, 2020, 3:12 AM

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Why not?

golden breach Apr 5, 2020, 3:12 AM

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Idk

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And I can't freakin test it right now

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My computer isn't accessing the internet

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And the Photon can't work without connection

jade glacier Apr 5, 2020, 3:13 AM

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I got nothing for you sorry. You need to do all of the basic debugging stuff first and narrow it down to an actual question before I can assist. 😕

golden breach Apr 5, 2020, 3:14 AM

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I'll assume it's not being called anyway or else the variable would have been synced

jade glacier Apr 5, 2020, 3:14 AM

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Never assume

golden breach Apr 5, 2020, 3:14 AM

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Yah

jade glacier Apr 5, 2020, 3:14 AM

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Debug.Log.... everywhere

golden breach Apr 5, 2020, 3:14 AM

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Ye

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I'm so annoyed

jade glacier Apr 5, 2020, 3:14 AM

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You have a wrong assumption, that is what you are trying to find.

golden breach Apr 5, 2020, 3:15 AM

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I'll have it being able to test tomorrow

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Wait...

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I think I have another theory too

civic stream Apr 5, 2020, 10:58 AM

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@jade glacier is it normal that I need to get the PhotonView of the GameObject I'm trying to call the RPC method on?

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So if I'm trying to call an RPC method on a player from a game manager, I need to get the player's PhotonView?

jade glacier Apr 5, 2020, 12:02 PM

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I don't use rpcs, but seems reasonable to want to do that.

weak plinth Apr 5, 2020, 12:03 PM

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Yeah, you need to get that exact PhotonView.

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I personally used events only when I was still using PUN.

jade glacier Apr 5, 2020, 12:05 PM

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PUN doesn't have the concept of LocalPlayer like Unet though. A player can own any number of objects and send rpcs from them.

uncut marsh Apr 5, 2020, 12:27 PM

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Hello my names billy a game developer/ concept artist, I need help on my project texturing a few 3d realistic mutant creatures for unity anyone here have experience on that field?

jade glacier Apr 5, 2020, 12:52 PM

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This is the multi player networking channel, probably meant that for a different channel @uncut marsh

whole granite Apr 5, 2020, 1:46 PM

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Hey guys,
Is there anything like connection tokens or something to pass data during connection in Unity.Networking.Transport?

clever quartz Apr 5, 2020, 1:47 PM

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hey everyone .. I've been searching for a while on how to implement the networks of an MMORPG and the only results I've reached
so far was using SpatialOS so I'd like to ask for your opinions on this matter and what the best approach would be.

jade glacier Apr 5, 2020, 1:52 PM

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Have you made any kind of finished or somewhat finished basic MP game?

Starting in with an MMO = kiss 2 years of your life goodbye with a high likelihood of abandoning your project half finished. I strongly recommend AGAINST beginning your networking journey there. @clever quartz

civic stream Apr 5, 2020, 1:57 PM

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Lol I figured as much

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I'm literally trying to make a monopoly-type game to play with friends because the monopoly on steam is the laggiest game I've ever played

pastel spindle Apr 5, 2020, 1:57 PM

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hello I join this discord to know how I can get the link api
like this https://discordapp.com/api/invites/discord-api

clever quartz Apr 5, 2020, 2:10 PM

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I haven't .. I'm a junior computer science student with little background in networks so I'm hoping this gives me even the slightest advantage and
even if I gave up half way it would still count as experience so I wouldn't really consider the process as useless @jade glacier

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what I would really like to know though is how to start with network layer and what tools to use

jade glacier Apr 5, 2020, 2:11 PM

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I would still first run tutorials for some of the more popular libraries, like PUN2, Mirror, Bolt - to get your head around the basic networking for games concepts and problems.

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I always recommend to try and make a version of 2 player Pong that plays reasonably well over the Internet first. It will teach you the paradoxes involved in networking that you will be up against - before piling too many challenges on top of that right out of the gate.

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an MMO is the deep end, and you will have so many broken parts at once you won't even know where to start.

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Break it down into learning the small bits of what goes into game networking separately - and then once you feel you get it you can try to pull those all into an MMO.

night plover Apr 5, 2020, 2:20 PM

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I agree completely. And it sounds like you want to do it for learning and employment purposes. In both cases, finished products are much more valuable.

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And you're not going to finish an MMO alone while still studying

jade glacier Apr 5, 2020, 2:25 PM

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You can break it down into smaller bits that later can find their way into an MMO. But seriously. Try to make 2 player networked Pong that survives 150ms pings and 10% packetloss. You will learn volumes from trying to do that.

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All of this also isn't even touching the marketing side of MMOs. They require lots of users to even function as planned, and lots of users require lots of marketing and budget.

clever quartz Apr 5, 2020, 2:28 PM

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okey great I will do my best to get more familiar with the basics and the fundamentals so that I'd have some base knowledge when starting with the mmo

jade glacier Apr 5, 2020, 2:28 PM

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And to the point of a portfolio, you would get FAR more mileage out of a very small and tight study of some mechanic applied to a networked game, executed with genius.

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Shitting out a sloppy barely functional MMO is not going to impress any networking people who are hiring.

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The best portfolios I have ever seen are a lot of small, very intelligent studies of networking problems, and experiments produced that solve them in interesting ways.

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So step one, make Pong and start to experience the problems we mean.

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Step two... start coming up with genius ways to solve them.

clever quartz Apr 5, 2020, 2:31 PM

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@night plover yeah I'm doing it for the fun and the experience and I'm not really alone there are many people I know who are willing to help so implementing the base game is kind of my goal now

jade glacier Apr 5, 2020, 2:31 PM

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We can only tell you from experience and what we see here. The highway of this channel is littered with people showing up day one with "I want to make an MMO...."

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And they all vanish

clever quartz Apr 5, 2020, 2:32 PM

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@jade glacier yeah I understand you clearly .. a half working mmo won't be impressive in my resume at all

jade glacier Apr 5, 2020, 2:32 PM

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And will just not be fun... at all

clever quartz Apr 5, 2020, 2:39 PM

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I know how difficult it is to pull it off and I know that it's extremely hard and complicated and that I most probably going to give up half way through, I know of the amount of people who wanted to do something similar and failed .. I don't mind failure because I really don't think that those people who vanished have failed .. they have gained some knowledge even if it's something insignificant as completing 1% of the game

jade glacier Apr 5, 2020, 2:40 PM

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You do you of course. We are just telling you what we know and see as networking devs ourselves.

clever quartz Apr 5, 2020, 2:40 PM

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so far it has been extremely fun for me and my other friend .. facing new problems and even struggling with the code :D

jade glacier Apr 5, 2020, 2:41 PM

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We have this exact conversation in here like 5 times a week. You might be the exception... who knows.

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Networking is a lot of fun, for sure.

clever quartz Apr 5, 2020, 2:41 PM

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i'm not lol

jade glacier Apr 5, 2020, 2:42 PM

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MMOs can be fun as a graduation project after getting a handle on all of the smaller components first. But starting right into one to begin with. Strongly discouraged.

clever quartz Apr 5, 2020, 2:43 PM

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I really hoped being a c.s student gave me advantage .. looks like it didn't

jade glacier Apr 5, 2020, 2:44 PM

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not really, that will help you on the transport layer, but you don't do much work on that layer anyway.

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Those libs are all made.

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Game networking is largely a gaming problem, not a CS problem.

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The core of it being how to reduce a game to States and Inputs, how to serialize and share those over the network, and the hardest part, how to hide the latencies involved and deal with lag/loss.

clever quartz Apr 5, 2020, 2:45 PM

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that's new to me

jade glacier Apr 5, 2020, 2:46 PM

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Making a system that is efficient and resilient has a lot of layers of complexity, and lots of paths you can go to solve those paradoxes and such.

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gafferongames.com is a good starting point

gray ether Apr 5, 2020, 2:49 PM

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okay, how would i get two game instances, both connected to the same network, to sync scenes? something like the unity matchmaking or photon, but LAN only?

clever quartz Apr 5, 2020, 2:49 PM

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well I'll go for your advise so I guess my job right now is to fully grasp the fundamentals and start on small projects first

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I do have a question though .. is there any reason to why I shouldn't use SpatialOS .. it looks fairly easy and I don't have to do any coding related to networking

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at least not complex code as far as I understand

night plover Apr 5, 2020, 2:51 PM

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Isn't SpatialOS mostly backend stuff?

clever quartz Apr 5, 2020, 2:53 PM

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I'm not sure I'm still trying to understand how it exactly works

jade glacier Apr 5, 2020, 2:59 PM

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At this point I would try lots of things. Do all the tutorials you can... That will really get you down a good path.

clever quartz Apr 5, 2020, 3:04 PM

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okey great .. checking the popular libraries you mentioned earlier and making a 2 player pong sounds like a good idea to understand the basics

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really appreciate it .. thanks ^^

silent zinc Apr 5, 2020, 3:08 PM

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Could anyone link me, some docs regarding async sockets for client side in c#?

slim ridge Apr 5, 2020, 3:13 PM

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https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/framework/network-programming/asynchronous-client-socket-example

Asynchronous Client Socket Example

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hmm, i've just been googling about SpatialOS and came across their dispute with unity. I'm still uncertain. Can anyone clarify if we're allowed to run our server in the cloud without a separate unity license?

silent zinc Apr 5, 2020, 3:25 PM

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@slim ridge I followed that example like in many ways, from the strict one, to the creative one lol. I mean, i encountered lots of problems with my game using that example, WaitOne() makes the Unity Thread wait forever. Right now i'm using this class https://hatebin.com/ujwazvntnt for the Client.

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I really don't know how should i implement those methods, in order to recieve all data without blocking.

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Btw my class is ugly, i should take my time to adjust it

slim ridge Apr 5, 2020, 3:27 PM

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where's it blocking now?

silent zinc Apr 5, 2020, 3:27 PM

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it's not blocking atm

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but sometimes it doesn't recieve data if i call RecvData in a while loop for example

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The server is a python asyncio server

slim ridge Apr 5, 2020, 3:29 PM

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i havent used async sockets yet, but don't you need to EndReceive at some point?

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oh, i see it there 😄

silent zinc Apr 5, 2020, 3:30 PM

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that bool that i set to false, is just to avoid multiple recv on to another

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that erase the response

slim ridge Apr 5, 2020, 3:31 PM

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but since it's async it could be happening at the wrong time

gray ether Apr 5, 2020, 3:31 PM

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what would be the best approach for LAN multiplayer between PC and ios/android?

silent zinc Apr 5, 2020, 3:32 PM

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but since it's async it could be happening at the wrong time
@slim ridge what do you mean?

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https://hatebin.com/hhrlvkuaqa

slim ridge Apr 5, 2020, 3:32 PM

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there could be two RecvCallback going at once

silent zinc Apr 5, 2020, 3:33 PM

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That is the class that calls recv and handle all the events

slim ridge Apr 5, 2020, 3:34 PM

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@gray ether do you need a server or is one of the clients acting as the server?

gray ether Apr 5, 2020, 3:34 PM

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one of the clients would be hosting

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pc is in vr, i only need to send a render texture, probs dont need multiplayer but want to add more features on mobile than in vr

slim ridge Apr 5, 2020, 3:35 PM

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you'd have to build a server/client for each OS

gray ether Apr 5, 2020, 3:35 PM

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pc would be hosting

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ahh, ok then.

silent zinc Apr 5, 2020, 3:36 PM

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use a python server ; ) hosted on a Linux machine

gray ether Apr 5, 2020, 3:36 PM

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no, i dont want servers

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this is only for two players on the same network, but if i had to, i would be using python 🙂

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thanks @slim ridge

slim ridge Apr 5, 2020, 3:37 PM

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I'd recommend picking one then writing a server/client for it that encodes your RenderTexture and streams it

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since it's LAN, you shouldnt need to worry about compression 😄

gray ether Apr 5, 2020, 3:38 PM

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id probs just use something that supports udp

tropic adder Apr 5, 2020, 3:38 PM

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How I can do it, that if the PhotonView is mine, that other Entities spawns as if the View is not mine.

gray ether Apr 5, 2020, 3:38 PM

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any recommendations for something that works on both?

tropic adder Apr 5, 2020, 3:39 PM

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public class WarriorSpawn : MonoBehaviour
{
    [SerializeField] private Warrior Prefab;
    [SerializeField] private List<Enemies> enemies = new List<Enemies>();
    public void Summon()
    {
        Warrior warrior = Instantiate(Prefab, new Vector3(-100, 190, 0), Quaternion.identity);
        // miner.AddComponent<Miner>;
        // Miner m = gameObject.AddComponent(typeof(Miner)) as Miner;
        warrior.MoveTo(enemies[0].transform.position);
    }
}```

jade glacier Apr 5, 2020, 3:39 PM

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@clever quartz If you are on the PC be sure to test your gameplay using clumsy.exe - you really want to see what latency and loss do to your system.

slim ridge Apr 5, 2020, 3:40 PM

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i dont know any, awesomepants, but something you might be interested in is multicast networking it seems appropriate for your situation

burnt axle Apr 5, 2020, 3:40 PM

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@tropic adder store it as a prefab?

tropic adder Apr 5, 2020, 3:40 PM

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Yes

gray ether Apr 5, 2020, 3:40 PM

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thanks! i'll look into that!

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ok, no, i only need communication between two devices, a pc and either an android or ios device

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unicast is enough

clever quartz Apr 5, 2020, 3:42 PM

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@jade glacier i will do that .. it's just that I want to set up the multiplayer for now and improve the connection later

tropic adder Apr 5, 2020, 3:44 PM

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Hello?

slim ridge Apr 5, 2020, 3:47 PM

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I haveno idea GoldGuy it's hard to understand your question 😦

tropic adder Apr 5, 2020, 3:52 PM

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I want that:

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If Player1 spawn a Warrior, the Warrior1 have to Spawn on -100, 190, 0. And if Player2 spawn a Warrior, the Warrior2 have to Spawn on 800, 190, 0.

jade glacier Apr 5, 2020, 3:54 PM

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What are you using for a networking library? @tropic adder

tropic adder Apr 5, 2020, 3:55 PM

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Photon

jade glacier Apr 5, 2020, 3:57 PM

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PUN2?

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You should be using the instantiate built into that for spawning if so.

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What you pasted above has no networking code, so not sure what you are trying to do.

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https://doc.photonengine.com/en-us/pun/current/getting-started/pun-intro Have you done the somewhat mandatory first reading?

weak lava Apr 5, 2020, 6:58 PM

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Hi, so im working on a server-client prototype where the client is always an android smartphone. Handling messages and stuff works kinda good. But im facing one problem. The client randomly disconnects, but only when i test it with a android build using Console everything works perfect. Actually i have no idea why this happens. Im using sockets and tcp protocol. Thats my client net code https://github.com/SradnickDev/Sockets/blob/master/TCPServerClient/Client/ClientPeer.cs. Or is there anything i have to take care when dealing with android and local wifi?

amber trench Apr 5, 2020, 7:02 PM

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@weak lava you might get more mileage using a websockets-based solution that already includes connectivity lifecycle, like SocketIO

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if this is more for educational purposes, you should start with an environment where you can see what different connection states mean

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like start with two computers on wifi. try moving one away from wifi. try sleeping it. try turning off the wifi adapter. etc. you'll be frustrated to discover that for these very real, concrete things, you will not at all get predictable connection states, exceptions, events, etc.

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exactly zero people in this chat room, except maybe the PUN author, will know what would happen 🙂

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i don't even know

slim ridge Apr 5, 2020, 7:04 PM

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ya the android smartphone can change networks any time it pleases

weak lava Apr 5, 2020, 7:11 PM

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@amber trench alright, i'll not change to any third party lib, its more for educational purposes for my next project. That means i'll just keep tryin and testing stuff.

amber trench Apr 5, 2020, 7:12 PM

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you might want to see how socket IO works then

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the answer will be "heartbeat"

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basically every networking solution that has to work in a general way, especially for mobile devices, sends a heartbeat every X seconds

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to determine whether or not there's a connection

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"but TCP" doesn't matter

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every rolled-your-own solution eventually uses UDP, because it's connectionless, and the heartbeat is a superior way to determine whether or not a mobile device is connected to a server

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Clash Royale for examples uses UDP as its underlying transport

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mobile devices have very good support for UDP, especially as their internet interfaces may change

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or their sleep states may change

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so i'll be honest, a stateful TCP connection is a dead end for you, unless you do a Socket-IO's level of work to manage the lifecycle of the connection

weak lava Apr 5, 2020, 7:23 PM

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Well i switched from udp to tcp because of the reliability, actually without packetloss where a problem. But im gonna check UDP next after studying Socket IO. I also had a heartbeat implemented but since im sending continuously packets due to testing, i deleted it, will remember to reimplement in when changing to udp.

empty yew Apr 6, 2020, 1:11 AM

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You're gonna have to share your code so that someone can help you.

jade glacier Apr 6, 2020, 1:50 AM

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you have set your NetworkIdentity on your player prefab to be localPlayer?

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The client can't move meaning your controllers aren't working locally on the client?

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Sounds like your hasAuthority check on your controller might be wrong.

empty yew Apr 6, 2020, 3:23 AM

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How are the players being spawned

frozen canopy Apr 6, 2020, 4:18 AM

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Hello, im looking for someone good with Photon Bult integrations, paying good to make a photon bolt integration and adaptation in my game.

Dm if interested, cant find someone outa there

worldly cedar Apr 6, 2020, 5:04 AM

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does anyone know why a UnityWebRequest GET call would perform syncronously (aka, blocking/freezing the app) in a WebGL build?

spring crane Apr 6, 2020, 6:35 AM

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@frozen canopy You have been told multiple times that we don't do job advertising here

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@worldly cedar How are you doing the request?

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Some info about UnityWebRequest on here https://docs.unity3d.com/Manual/webgl-networking.html if you haven't seen already.

worldly cedar Apr 6, 2020, 6:47 AM

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ah, ive posted the wrong one, 2 secs

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network problems in 2 different projects haha

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this is the main part of the code @spring crane

//Add auth header        
        using (UnityWebRequest www = UnityWebRequest.Get(url))
        {
            www.SetRequestHeader("Authorization", "Bearer " + accessToken);
            yield return www.SendWebRequest();
            resultText = "{ \"Items\": " + www.downloadHandler.text + "}";
        }

it works, it just freezes the app

spring crane Apr 6, 2020, 7:02 AM

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Few alternatives here https://stackoverflow.com/questions/52514829/unity-webgl-unitywebrequest-data-handling
Not really sure if something is up with yielding www.SendWebRequest()

worldly cedar Apr 6, 2020, 7:20 AM

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right? Ive got a few other calls implemented exactly the same way and they arent blocking at all

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but thanks for the links, helpful!

nocturne osprey Apr 6, 2020, 11:37 AM

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is anyone familar with the socket.io asset for unity? I'm having some problems sending json server with a seemingly simple emit command. everything is working on the node.js as I can send messages between two browser windows. i can also see that unity is making a socket connection and the beep() method that is provided (does not send data, ie socket.on('beep', function() as opposed to socket.on('chat', function(data){) which works correctly

https://pastebin.com/VtAqE6uK

Pastebin

relevant node.js server code ----- io.on('connection', functi...

tropic adder Apr 6, 2020, 12:28 PM

#

I want, that if the PhotonView is mine, my Prefab Miner spawns as a Child of the empty GameObject: Player1

#

And also with Player2

#

Here is the Code:

#

using System.Collections;
using System.Collections.Generic;
using UnityEngine;
using Photon.Pun;

public class MinerSpawn : MonoBehaviour
{
    [SerializeField] private Miner Prefab;
    private PhotonView photonView;
    public void Summon()
    {
        GameObject ParentGameObject = GameObject.Find("Player1");
        GameObject ParentGameObject1 = GameObject.Find("Player2");
        Miner miner = Instantiate(Prefab, new Vector3(-100, 190, 0), Quaternion.identity);
        
        photonView = GetComponent<PhotonView>(); //Line 21
        if (photonView.IsMine)
        {
            miner.transform.parent = ParentGameObject.transform;
        }
        else if (!photonView.IsMine)
        {
            miner.transform.parent = ParentGameObject1.transform;
        }
    }
}```

#

Please nick me, if anyone have a solved Version of this Problem:

#

NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object MinerSpawn.Summon () (at Assets/Scripts/MinerSpawn.cs:21)

vital vector Apr 6, 2020, 12:39 PM

#

which one is line 21?

tropic adder Apr 6, 2020, 12:42 PM

#

photonView = Get...

#

I commented it

vital vector Apr 6, 2020, 12:43 PM

#

ah yeah

#

well that's weird. I'd understand if the error was on the following line, since IsMine can't be accessed if the object if null... But on that line, the only possibility is that this would be null, which would be even weirder

#

are you sure the object hasn't been destroyed once the function is called?

tropic adder Apr 6, 2020, 12:46 PM

#

Yes

vital vector Apr 6, 2020, 12:46 PM

#

because that would cause this to be null (from Unity's point of view)

#

then it's hard to tell..

tropic adder Apr 6, 2020, 12:46 PM

#

I did it before

#

private PhotonView photonView;
    // Start is called before the first frame update
    void Start()
    {
        photonView = GetComponent<PhotonView>();
        if (!photonView.IsMine)
        {
            foreach (var script in scriptsToIgnore)
            {
                script.enabled = false;
            }
        }
    }```

#

And there it worked

jade glacier Apr 6, 2020, 1:10 PM

#

doing that in start is only going to work if you spawn that object after connecting

#

that will not work for scene objects

tropic adder Apr 6, 2020, 1:12 PM

#

I mean the PlayerView.

jade glacier Apr 6, 2020, 1:22 PM

#

If its being spawned after connect, that will work yeah

#

You can make that work for scene objects as well just by changing from Start to OnJoinedRoom and OwnerChanged

tropic adder Apr 6, 2020, 1:26 PM

#

Ah. Ok

fierce niche Apr 6, 2020, 6:11 PM

#

anybody able to answer a playfab question? (i asked in #💻┃code-beginner already and dont wana double post it)

toxic lintel Apr 6, 2020, 6:24 PM

#

should i use Unet or build my own server api for my fps

#

or is there another api option better then unet

jade glacier Apr 6, 2020, 6:26 PM

#

There are a lot of options better than UNET. I would say all are better than Unet at this point, since its obsoleted.

#

I am sure you are about to ask "Which is best"

slim ridge Apr 6, 2020, 6:27 PM

#

@toxic lintel any protocol you write is going to be easier to debug and modify than a plugin like unet, but perhaps what you're looking for is photon

toxic lintel Apr 6, 2020, 6:27 PM

#

alright

#

probs go for my own protocol then

jade glacier Apr 6, 2020, 6:28 PM

#

Photon is several products. The only one really suited for FPS is Bolt. It's designed to make AAA fps games, but it does have a learning curve and it does tie you to Photon.

#

Honestly though, what you are asking gets asked about 10x a day here.

#

the correct answer is none of that.

#

If you have to ask, it means you haven't done tutorials and build any networking experiments - so you should not even be trying to think about making an actual game yet.

toxic lintel Apr 6, 2020, 6:29 PM

#

ye

jade glacier Apr 6, 2020, 6:29 PM

#

The question itself indicates you aren't ready to ask that question

toxic lintel Apr 6, 2020, 6:29 PM

#

im working on a tcp chat app rn

#

trying to learn some more about networking

jade glacier Apr 6, 2020, 6:30 PM

#

Networking has a half dozen layers

#

the transport being the lowest, which is just connections and sending byte[] arrays around.

slim ridge Apr 6, 2020, 6:30 PM

#

tcp chat is a good entry to socket layer programming 👍

jade glacier Apr 6, 2020, 6:30 PM

#

Game networking is about dealing with the paradoxes of latency and loss - and how you architecture to make that manageable.

#

chat is a good intro into the transport

toxic lintel Apr 6, 2020, 6:31 PM

#

alright

jade glacier Apr 6, 2020, 6:31 PM

#

but don't blur that with actual simulation and state transfer - those are a completely different set of challenges.

toxic lintel Apr 6, 2020, 6:31 PM

#

ok i dont even know what these are yet

jade glacier Apr 6, 2020, 6:32 PM

#

yeah, which is why it is WAY too early to be asking about the best way to do an FPS really.

#

Do tutorials for some of the major libraries

toxic lintel Apr 6, 2020, 6:32 PM

#

i will

jade glacier Apr 6, 2020, 6:32 PM

#

PUN, Mirror, Bolt for the middle layers

toxic lintel Apr 6, 2020, 6:32 PM

#

networking seems like a good way to go once you have a good grasp on datastructures anyways

jade glacier Apr 6, 2020, 6:32 PM

#

Bolt is the only full stack available to you, and is likely the actual best answer for making a real FPS... but you won't learn much from it alone.

toxic lintel Apr 6, 2020, 6:32 PM

#

and how basic OOP works

jade glacier Apr 6, 2020, 6:33 PM

#

yeah, none of that is really going to help you down this path.

#

Networking at the game level is a lot weirder

#

You need to know those, so you are ready to get into networking

#

But you really have to take some time to read up on the paradoxes you will be trying to solve

toxic lintel Apr 6, 2020, 6:33 PM

#

PUN, Mirror, Bolt these three right

jade glacier Apr 6, 2020, 6:34 PM

#

they are the more popular libraries yeah

#

Bolt is the only "correct" one

#

Pun/Mirror and such are a couple layers on top of the transport

#

PUN is relay based, Mirror is basically UNet in architecture.

toxic lintel Apr 6, 2020, 6:35 PM

#

so that would be similar to things like ftp?

jade glacier Apr 6, 2020, 6:36 PM

#

Totally going down a wrong line of thinking there

#

The transports typicaly work using either TCP or UDP

#

but what they are doing is always the same... they establish the connections, and they send byte[] arrays as messages

#

With optional reliability settings if its UDP

#

but that is about all that is going on down at the bottom of real consequence.

toxic lintel Apr 6, 2020, 6:38 PM

#

alright

#

thanks for all the info m8

jade glacier Apr 6, 2020, 6:38 PM

#

I would start with tutorials

#

That will lead to better questions

toxic lintel Apr 6, 2020, 6:38 PM

#

its really helpfu;

jade glacier Apr 6, 2020, 6:38 PM

#

then we can help way more

toxic lintel Apr 6, 2020, 6:38 PM

#

helpful

jade glacier Apr 6, 2020, 6:38 PM

#

gl

#

If you try mirror, they have their own discord channel

#

just be aware that that library will encourage some VERY bad networking practices

#

So take advice given there as debatable. But still very useful.

fierce niche Apr 6, 2020, 6:41 PM

#

ok so im trying to understand how to RequestLeaderboard from the playfab api I thought maybe I was supposed to write my own function for it like this
C# Code blocks:

//Get the players with the top 10 high scores in the game
    public void RequestLeaderboard()
    {
        PlayFabClientAPI.GetLeaderboard(new GetLeaderboardRequest
        {
            StatisticName = "HighScore",
            StartPosition = 0,
            MaxResultsCount = 10
        }, result => DisplayLeaderboard(result), FailureCallback);
    }

    public void Displayleaderboard(GetLeaderboardResult result)
    {
        //show results in ui
    }
``` here are the docs, Im looking at the code under RequestLeaderboard https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/gaming/playfab/features/social/tournaments-leaderboards/quickstart

#

basically im not sure how this "DisplayLeaderboard(result)" is intended to work since it doesnt exist. im assuming I need to write that "DisplayLeaderboard()" function myself. but GetLeaderboardResulsts is under PlayFab.ClientModels wich i am using. and obviously the code i pasted doesn't work

slim ridge Apr 6, 2020, 6:48 PM

#

i still dont get it. You don't find what you need in result or the function isnt even called ?

#

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/rest/api/playfab/client/player-data-management/getleaderboard?view=playfab-rest#getleaderboardresult
looks like it's made of an array of PlayerLeaderboardEntry

Player Data Management - Get Leaderboard (PlayFab Client)

Retrieves a list of ranked users for the given statistic, starting from the indicated point in the leaderboard

fierce niche Apr 6, 2020, 6:51 PM

#

DisplayLeaderboard in the line under max results "doesnt exist" even if I make that function myself

slim ridge Apr 6, 2020, 6:51 PM

#

ah, it's using delegates

#

but you made a typo too

fierce niche Apr 6, 2020, 6:51 PM

#

so im assuming im doing it completely wrong

#

shit lol

#

lowercase l I see it now

empty yew Apr 6, 2020, 7:55 PM

#

what is pun good for, @jade glacier

slim ridge Apr 6, 2020, 8:30 PM

#

emptying your wallet

empty yew Apr 6, 2020, 8:30 PM

#

?

slim ridge Apr 6, 2020, 8:31 PM

#

looks to me like PUN distributes your networking on their cloud

#

something you'd buy if you can't afford a cloud computing engineer

empty yew Apr 6, 2020, 9:09 PM

#

i know bolt is good for fps, but why is it better for that

slim ridge Apr 6, 2020, 9:13 PM

#

probably because of the mecanim replication, state replication

empty yew Apr 6, 2020, 10:12 PM

#

you dont necessarily need bolt if you have a slower type of real-time fighting then, right?

#

not slow slow, but not fps headshot dead fast

jade glacier Apr 6, 2020, 10:18 PM

#

Pun is relay based, so it basically removes the server from the equation - for better and worse. @empty yew

#

So it is not good for competitive authoritative game types, unless you start writing server plugins.

empty yew Apr 6, 2020, 10:19 PM

#

so each client are just connecting to eachother

jade glacier Apr 6, 2020, 10:19 PM

#

not exaclty

#

Relay is still a server, but its a dumb server

empty yew Apr 6, 2020, 10:20 PM

#

I was using PUN for a magic based fighting game solely for friends at school. Should I cut my very short losses and swap to bolt?

jade glacier Apr 6, 2020, 10:24 PM

#

I missed the start of the convo... what game type?

#

And is the goal to learn, or to get to market?

#

PUN for most fighting games in its vanilla form isn't going to be ideal.

#

Fighting games if you mean like Tekken really want to be extrapolative and deterministic

empty yew Apr 6, 2020, 10:26 PM

#

This is basically the start of it lol

#

FPS style gameplay but with magic

#

Not for market, just for the experience and to hopefully have a finished product i can play with my friends

#

I don't need it to be perfect, just working lol

jade glacier Apr 6, 2020, 10:31 PM

#

Just be aware of the architectures and how those will play out

#

in the case of fighting games, state transfer with client prediction and extrapolation are going to make for some "interesting" timings

empty yew Apr 6, 2020, 10:32 PM

#

are you still on tekken type games

slim ridge Apr 6, 2020, 10:32 PM

#

in that case i'd say go for it with PUN or whatever you want until you encounter these problems, but a professional project will require much more forethought

jade glacier Apr 6, 2020, 10:32 PM

#

But worth trying, just to see.

#

Most of getting good at game networking is learning how to hide the timing paradoxes

empty yew Apr 6, 2020, 10:32 PM

#

or just have the game be hilariously bad

#

and embrace the shittiness

#

PUN should work then?

#

or should i swap to bolt for the better chance of dealing with less lag

#

i literally have only connected to master and shared variables. I'm not that far in

slim ridge Apr 6, 2020, 10:35 PM

#

try both

empty yew Apr 6, 2020, 10:35 PM

#

I guess I'll stick to PUN until I discover what issues I can't get over

#

Thank you to both of you

jade glacier Apr 6, 2020, 10:43 PM

#

np

#

If you are making a game that is typical FPS (missed that it is NOT a fighting game), you will mostly have to deal with not having an option for server authority. That means you really are going to be leaning on client authority.

#

@empty yew

#

For that type of game Bolt is the only full stack option. Alternative is to create your own client prediction system on top of a server based lib like Mirror/MLAPI

empty yew Apr 6, 2020, 10:46 PM

#

Then I'll swap to bolt, considering that the second sentence there sounds awful

slim ridge Apr 6, 2020, 10:50 PM

#

if your friends cheat you can reach over and smack 'em

empty yew Apr 6, 2020, 10:50 PM

#

I'll probably just referee so I can keep an eye out for bugs and what not

#

It's meant to be a MOBA mixed with RPG elements, be it killing monsters for loot/spells and farming herbs for potions that can be stolen

jade glacier Apr 6, 2020, 10:59 PM

#

I would switch to Bolt sooner than later if that is the plan at all

#

Since it has its own physics/controllers that make all of this possible.

#

The reason server auth is so hard is it requires the ability to rewind and resimulate properly, and to do that the system needs to manhandle inputs and states in a replicatable way.

empty yew Apr 6, 2020, 11:00 PM

#

Yeah, I think that would be for the best. I stopped working on the networking mostly because of school, but also I want to create everything in single player simply to have that out of the way.

#

So by the time I finish that, I'll have forgotten PUN anyways

jade glacier Apr 6, 2020, 11:11 PM

#

PUN of all of your options for an FPS is probably the WORST one - so I wouldn't get too deep yeah.

echo flax Apr 6, 2020, 11:44 PM

#

Hey, I had a question about UNET right now will it still be working later on if they removed it and if they make a new API with better Features and functionalities will my project be upgraded some how and can i use these Features? I heard it might be removed should i start with something else?

jade glacier Apr 6, 2020, 11:45 PM

#

The new one is not even remotely related, there will be no upgrade path.

#

You would be better off moving to Mirror now, its going to be the upgrade path for Unet for the foreseeable future.

#

@echo flax

echo flax Apr 6, 2020, 11:52 PM

#

Okay but if am in a middle of a project with UNET or finished one do i need to remake it with Mirror or is it a small difference in like the plugins and the extra features ?

jade glacier Apr 7, 2020, 1:14 AM

#

I would save for your git, then join the mirror discord.

#

@echo flax

echo flax Apr 7, 2020, 1:19 AM

#

What do u mean with git am sorry?

worldly cedar Apr 7, 2020, 2:15 AM

#

hey all, anyone got advice in making sure unitywebrequest output is utf8>

#

*?

amber trench Apr 7, 2020, 6:32 AM

#

@worldly cedar unitywebrequest will use the content-type header to determine the encoding of text. for example, content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

worldly cedar Apr 7, 2020, 6:48 AM

#

I have tried both text plain with charset utf-8 and application/octet-stream, no luck. Someone on stack overflow has commented saying that it may be sending it in a url form format, and suggests using UploadHandlerRaw, so im gonna give that a go

#

And that seems to have fixed it!

amber trench Apr 7, 2020, 6:57 AM

#

great 🙂

jaunty quest Apr 7, 2020, 7:57 AM

#

What's the best option for a mobile multiplayer game?

#

And by that I mean what route should I take for the multiplayer aspect and how would I go about doing this? For learning sakes.

gleaming prawn Apr 7, 2020, 10:30 AM

#

What kind of game is it?

#

What platforms as well

#

Do you want to learn to create multiplayer games, or how to write a multiplayer framework?

#

Honest questions... Without more details about your goals you'll receive totally random answers

jade glacier Apr 7, 2020, 11:57 AM

#

Drive-by

delicate kindle Apr 7, 2020, 12:13 PM

#

So i have 1 one body on the bottom there is a walking animation etc, but on the top i have script that makes the upper body to look where the camera is pointing, i tried adding photon view (transform viewer) and at the ended looking terrible how do i achieve that

#

@me if you know the answer

jade glacier Apr 7, 2020, 12:21 PM

#

The vanilla animator sync in PUN is a bit limited, but what you are describing indicates some kind of an ik-like thing you may be doing you need to serialize and sync whatever that script is doing to the upper body if it isn't manipulating the player through the animator. @delicate kindle

delicate kindle Apr 7, 2020, 12:21 PM

#

wait, i'll record it for you!

#

give me a mec

jade glacier Apr 7, 2020, 12:21 PM

#

You also need to use the animator view if you are using an animator.

delicate kindle Apr 7, 2020, 12:22 PM

#

📎 ice_video_20200407-142147.webm

#

there is a empty transform that is parent to the upper body

#

if i sync that transform it will glitch and it will look strange

#

it will have delay

#

etc

jade glacier Apr 7, 2020, 12:23 PM

#

You have multiple issues it sounds like

delicate kindle Apr 7, 2020, 12:23 PM

#

well it's 1

#

how do i sync that transform without delay and other things

jade glacier Apr 7, 2020, 12:24 PM

#

Depends what delay you are referring to

#

The internet IS delay

delicate kindle Apr 7, 2020, 12:24 PM

#

📎 ice_video_20200407-142431.webm

#

this is ingame

#

see how it looks

#

it has delay

jade glacier Apr 7, 2020, 12:25 PM

#

And syncing requires buffers which create some last as well

#

No idea what I am looking at sorry

#

Delay in what?

delicate kindle Apr 7, 2020, 12:25 PM

#

it stretches' the point

#

compare the first video with the second one

#

for example because i am syncing 2 transforms, when i move, the 2nd transform has small delay

jade glacier Apr 7, 2020, 12:27 PM

#

Yeah, you have something of a mess going. I would start over and get just the basic animator and transform syncs working before trying whatever you are doing to the upper body.

#

Yeah, you have bugs. Looks bad.

delicate kindle Apr 7, 2020, 12:28 PM

#

that's how the other clients see it

#

for me it looks fine

jade glacier Apr 7, 2020, 12:29 PM

#

Yup, you've got issues for sure

delicate kindle Apr 7, 2020, 12:29 PM

#

so if i move transform 01 forward after 1 sec or something the 2nd one will move after 1 sec or something, but only when i am syncing with photon

#

so my question is how do i sync 2 transform points, but to be synced and don't go all over the place

jade glacier Apr 7, 2020, 12:30 PM

#

You are mixing timeframes somehow. You definitely are doing one or more things wrong there.

#

Too big an open ended a question sorry. Without having your code in front of me to see how you Tangled things up like that, I can't even guess how to fix it.

delicate kindle Apr 7, 2020, 12:32 PM

#

Well it has nothing to do with the code, maybe i should contact Photon, or syncing it every frame without waiting to change position and then sync it

jade glacier Apr 7, 2020, 12:32 PM

#

Typically you do all local animation and transform handling, and the syncs replicate that. You are doing something that is fighting with them most likely.

#

I am photon PUN.

#

What are you using for a character controller?

delicate kindle Apr 7, 2020, 12:34 PM

#

Wdy?

jade glacier Apr 7, 2020, 12:34 PM

#

?

#

I would during dev have it update continuously yes, to be sure its not a weird timing issue

#

you can also try the SNS stuff, which has much better syncs

delicate kindle Apr 7, 2020, 12:35 PM

#

I'll try to update it continuously

#

i am 78% that is going to work

#

so yea

#

thank you btw for the help

jade glacier Apr 7, 2020, 12:37 PM

#

The SNS syncs are tick based, so they ensure that transform/animator syncs happen on the same ticks exactly as they were on the owner. If that is the problem they will help. If the problem is your controller is doing some weird stuff on clients, then you have to track that down.

#

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ySmkOBsL0qJnIk7iN9lbXPlfmYTGkN7JFgKDBdqj9e8/edit SNS I am referring to, which is an extension library for PUN2 that is in beta. @delicate kindle

golden breach Apr 8, 2020, 12:49 AM

#

How do you get Unity UI to update based on what a player on the other screen is doing with said UI (Im using Photon PUN)

jade glacier Apr 8, 2020, 1:09 AM

#

Same as locally. You have fields that represent the state, and UI gets callbacks when things change.

#

You just have to sync the backing fields with rpcs or such.

golden breach Apr 8, 2020, 1:11 AM

#

ok

fierce niche Apr 8, 2020, 5:14 AM

#

I wana set up a leaderboard / log in system and I dont think I have the time / skill level to learn it from scratch. I'm setting up playfab currently but it doesnt have a clear pricing structure that I can see. Does anyone have any recommendations?

slim ridge Apr 8, 2020, 2:31 PM

#

https://playfab.com/pricing/

PlayFab

Full Stack LiveOps, Real-Time Control

PlayFab is a suite of products that complement your existing backend infrastructure. Mix and match to meet your needs, or adopt the entire platform as a powerful base for current and future games.

#

ur right. "other limits apply" how ambiguous

#

but looks like you can get by for a small project without paying

mint acorn Apr 8, 2020, 3:02 PM

#

It's a trap, after creation project, check full limits inside project

#

@fierce niche

fierce niche Apr 8, 2020, 5:28 PM

#

@mint acorn I've seen that said before (which is why I'm worried) but I cant find any limits that immediately seem too small (at least under my 10k registered user limit)

#

any idea what usually runs out first?

slim ridge Apr 8, 2020, 5:50 PM

#

storage i'd guess

#

and probably these "capped at number of development mode users per title" thing

fierce niche Apr 8, 2020, 5:58 PM

#

ATM I think im gona risk setting up with playfab and hope for the best TY @slim ridge

slim ridge Apr 8, 2020, 8:42 PM

#

@dry wave what were you going to write your server in?

dry wave Apr 8, 2020, 8:42 PM

#

Probably Java for now, and then check if something like NodeJS could be a better option

#

Of course if there is a framework to use I can just use that, just trying to avoid some weird in-between solution

slim ridge Apr 8, 2020, 8:44 PM

#

it's a hard problem to tackle. in regards to networking and unity, it seems photon suite of products is the only player. (maybe spatialOS?)

or you could take the same route as me and write your server in an environment that makes sense to you and bend unity to your will to achieve determinism

dry wave Apr 8, 2020, 8:45 PM

#

What I want for now is just so that my sync is actually there. So let's say I interact with a character, that I can check if the player is actually next to that character and not somewhere completely different

#

And then I don't have to delve into half a year old code later to put the sync in

#

Photon does peer to peer no?

#

& yes that's what I want to do, just have Unity as a front and send the data to the server, have the server handle the rest

#

The issue is that I have no clue how to for example, make other players appear in someone's Unity front

#

I can send data, I can do stuff with it, I can do security (basics not advanced), but I don't know how to do the sync back to the clients

slim ridge Apr 8, 2020, 8:47 PM

#

ah ok, i got a good video for that somewhere...

dry wave Apr 8, 2020, 8:47 PM

#

Also I don't know if APIs or Websockets (or something like that) are a better option

slim ridge Apr 8, 2020, 8:48 PM

#

your solution will use TCP or UDP sockets

dry wave Apr 8, 2020, 8:48 PM

#

Is that a question or a statement?

slim ridge Apr 8, 2020, 8:49 PM

#

ok i lost the video 😦 but the basic concept is:
clients send their input to the server
server propagates this to other clients

dry wave Apr 8, 2020, 8:50 PM

#

Yes but how do you send back position information around a certain player from the server

#

Like do clients just have info on ALL players in the game?

#

I'd assume only the ones that are nearby

#

If all it's quite easy though 😄

slim ridge Apr 8, 2020, 8:50 PM

#

no, server should have authority over everything

#

it's pretty easy to intercept and modify packets coming from your computer

dry wave Apr 8, 2020, 8:51 PM

#

No I mean does the server send ALL player info all the time to clients, or only the player info of players nearby

#

I didn't mean that one client sends its info to the others

slim ridge Apr 8, 2020, 8:52 PM

#

the server is telling clients what's what. you could do both ways you just said

dry wave Apr 8, 2020, 8:52 PM

#

For example, I have an Interact() method now, the player uses this to interact with any interactable in the game. There I'd send data that the player is attempting an interaction, and have the server check if that's possible, and what the outcome is.

#

That I know, but not what to do with moving parts not decided by the player's interactions

#

Yes, but how do you know if you should send certain info to a client

#

Like, when does the server send info about player A to player B

slim ridge Apr 8, 2020, 8:53 PM

#

i think what you're talking about is determinism

#

which means, given the same input all clients will result in the same output

dry wave Apr 8, 2020, 8:54 PM

#

Also, should I use UDP to update other player's information and interactions in general in the world (e.g. moving NPC) or and TCP for what my player does, or both TCP?

#

which means, given the same input all clients will result in the same output
@slim ridge Yes

slim ridge Apr 8, 2020, 8:54 PM

#

then all your server has to say "this thing is happening here" and all clients will know how to handle that

dry wave Apr 8, 2020, 8:54 PM

#

Yes, but that part I know

#

But when to send the info I don't

#

If player A click on a furnace I know he wants to use the furnace

#

If player B moves closer to player A, how do I know player A should see him?

#

Also, isn't it insane to send player B's transform every x ms?

#

An NPC can move in the game world and then be corrected by the server, but a player can't

slim ridge Apr 8, 2020, 8:56 PM

#

the simulation has to run on the server too

dry wave Apr 8, 2020, 8:57 PM

#

Yes, it will

slim ridge Apr 8, 2020, 8:57 PM

#

and you'd write the logic of checking proximity into your server

dry wave Apr 8, 2020, 8:57 PM

#

So it's like player B is 100 distance from player A you send the info in every call?

slim ridge Apr 8, 2020, 8:57 PM

#

no, just the input since both clients will determine the same result

dry wave Apr 8, 2020, 8:58 PM

#

So all players have info on all players?

slim ridge Apr 8, 2020, 8:58 PM

#

instead of sending the transform each frame you'd send one message that says "move from here to here"

dry wave Apr 8, 2020, 8:58 PM

#

But that's the transform no?

#

How else do you know?

#

Thanks for helping me understand this better btw

jade glacier Apr 8, 2020, 9:02 PM

#

Unless you are deterministic, there needs to be a state authority and that needs to replicate to all clients.

#

Couldnt tell by browsing the above what the question was.

slim ridge Apr 8, 2020, 9:05 PM

#

https://www.gafferongames.com/post/state_synchronization/

Gaffer On Games

State Synchronization | Gaffer On Games

Introduction Hi, I’m Glenn Fiedler and welcome to Networked Physics.
In the previous article we discussed techniques for compressing snapshots.
In this article we round out our discussion of networked physics strategies with state synchronization, the third and final strategy ...

#

it's a complicated article but probably explains better than me

#

listen to emotitron he knows this stuff better than me

jade glacier Apr 8, 2020, 9:10 PM

#

It's all pretty boilderplate advice, same as others will give on the topic

dry wave Apr 8, 2020, 9:10 PM

#

@slim ridge I didn't fully read it yet, but yes this is what I wanted to do. And this works perfect with my game since its click to move, meaning that I can send the destination. My question is more, when to send things. I don't think I should send all player info each time, only the nearby ones. But what is nearby? And what is the most optimized way of sending data, e.g. Tcp websockets (how does that work in unity+self made server)? @jade glacier

jade glacier Apr 8, 2020, 9:11 PM

#

Sending a destination can be tricky, since that is relying on determinsm to play out the same on all clients

dry wave Apr 8, 2020, 9:11 PM

#

Boilerplate is fine I just want a system early on and then optimize it later, just to already send the correct info and not having to redesign my code in half a year

#

@jade glacier how would it not play out the same?

jade glacier Apr 8, 2020, 9:12 PM

#

You need to read up on what determinism means for that answer

#

That question would literally take me a day of typing to explain in generic terms

#

If you can remove all non-deterministic factors, you can do what you are saying. But that is not easy.

dry wave Apr 8, 2020, 9:13 PM

#

I understand determinism, or at least I think I do. But I don't understand how if all elements are the same in 2 client that the character would not move the same

#

If you have good sources, even a book, please tell me. I'm really okay with spending time on this

slim ridge Apr 8, 2020, 9:14 PM

#

read all of gaffer on games articles xD

jade glacier Apr 8, 2020, 9:15 PM

#

All elements are 100% certain to be deterministically the same?

#

Then sure, will work great.

#

But, I seriously doubt they will be if you haven't gone to great lengths to ensure determinism.

dry wave Apr 8, 2020, 9:16 PM

#

Don't understand why not, or at least close to

jade glacier Apr 8, 2020, 9:16 PM

#

Yeah, thus why the research time is needed

#

determinism is a huge topic

#

Or, just try it

#

and see how it works out

dry wave Apr 8, 2020, 9:16 PM

#

Alright I will look into it more

burnt axle Apr 9, 2020, 2:48 PM

#

Is there a video/benchmark result of PUN? I see Photon has some videos on youtube where they show quantum framework in action by displaying 2-3 clients at same time and this looks really good - no noticably lagg, very smooth and fluent.

#

Maybe it's something misconfigured on my end but i wasnt to impressed with the multiplayer experience using PUN, it was noticably laggy. Quantum is probably really smooth because it uses the deterministic technique (and probably other stuff too).

#

So i just want to see if someone have taken the effort to put up a benchmark result/video of how good PUN can be using simple games.

night plover Apr 9, 2020, 2:53 PM

#

Determinism doesn't have anything to do whether there's lag or not

burnt axle Apr 9, 2020, 2:54 PM

#

For information, i tried the PUN on a simple game where very little is synchronized. Only a cube's transform component per player is synced.

#

Really? Isnt it supposed to do the next synced move locally first, then correct/verify it by the actual network later on, and this is what creates the smooth movement?

burnt axle Apr 9, 2020, 3:13 PM

#

I forgot a little about what deterministic simulation is again, i somehow thought it predicted the state for remote players which is impossible, when it actually predicts the state of the local player in a server authoritive model. The local movement is fine, its the remote movement which is laggy.

#

Nevermind my request about PUN in action, i tried out some games using it and its pretty good so the laggy state is on my end 😛

slim ridge Apr 9, 2020, 3:22 PM

#

determinism vastly reduces the amount of data you need to transfer

#

it allows clients to predict state because determinism means the same result is achieved by the same input. (you only need to transfer input data)

burnt axle Apr 9, 2020, 3:27 PM

#

So instead of sending the transform component, you just send the input so recieving clients use the input to move the player "locally"?

slim ridge Apr 9, 2020, 3:27 PM

#

yeah, you send the initial state once when it's relevant to the client and they can control it using input data after that

burnt axle Apr 9, 2020, 3:32 PM

#

I can definitely see how that is reducing the bandwidth on larger games that synces alot of data. I was wondering about this the other day when thinking about how larger and complex games that synces alot of data deals with the bandwidth limits.

slim ridge Apr 9, 2020, 3:36 PM

#

i'd recommend examining the bandwidth usage of several games. You'd be surprised how bad some of them are

burnt axle Apr 9, 2020, 3:44 PM

#

Yeah im actually trying to get info on it now. Pun for example has 60GB bandwith limit in total for 20CCU. Is that accountant for outgoing and ingoing bandwidth? And what is the rate limit of the bandwidth?

gleaming prawn Apr 9, 2020, 3:45 PM

#

@burnt axle

The local movement is fine, its the remote movement which is laggy.
Not really, both are predicted, so neither is laggy

#

predict/rollback determinism (whose simplest possible implementation, GGPO, is popular with fighting games communities - aka rollback netcode) uses input extrapolation to predict the whole simulation (not only the local player)

#

This is what quantum uses (I#m one of the engine developers)

#

@slim ridge prediction can be done WITHOUT determinism... just transfer input and do local extrapolation
What you gain with determinism is the ability to transfer ONLY input and get both Prediction (via predict/rollback) and synced results (via determinism over verified frames)

jade glacier Apr 9, 2020, 3:56 PM

#

I assume Rocket League isn't fully deterministic, but it does extrapolate for sure.

#

I believe it does state transfers

#

I would say the "smoothness" of Quantum is actually counter to what it is really doing. The constant resims if shown to you in their raw form would be jittery as F

burnt axle Apr 9, 2020, 3:59 PM

#

@gleaming prawn Thanks for answer.

jade glacier Apr 9, 2020, 3:59 PM

#

State Transfer with interpolation is inherently "smooth" but that is because it is working with known historical states rather than extrapolated guesses

gleaming prawn Apr 9, 2020, 4:00 PM

#

@jade glacier physics objects are inherently Smooth, because simulation of loose objects is always driven by physics, not network.

#

What could be jittery are remote player movement in those moments they change direction

jade glacier Apr 9, 2020, 4:00 PM

#

I assume though until a missed input prediction, if that was shown immediately as the new sim result it would lurch

#

yeah, was referring to that

gleaming prawn Apr 9, 2020, 4:00 PM

#

THat we smooth out using an error-based interpolation mechanism

jade glacier Apr 9, 2020, 4:00 PM

#

I think we are on the same page

#

Just clarifying that determinism wasn't making smoothness, that is still the lerping operations

gleaming prawn Apr 9, 2020, 4:01 PM

#

But we're talking about 2-5 ticks of rollbacks... SO it's tiny smoothed fixes

#

yep

burnt axle Apr 9, 2020, 4:03 PM

#

I just observed the bandwidth usage of active gameplay in CSGO with 10 players, it only used 50kb at average. My ISP provides 50MB up and down so it only uses 0.10% of available bandwidth.

gleaming prawn Apr 9, 2020, 4:10 PM

#

CSGO AFAIK sends full state snapshots, with delta compression... But their game states are also tiny

burnt axle Apr 9, 2020, 4:16 PM

#

In comparison, a 4K video on youtube recieves 3000kb/s 😛

slim ridge Apr 9, 2020, 4:20 PM

#

imagine a game with states as big as 4k video frame LOL

burnt axle Apr 9, 2020, 4:34 PM

#

Lol. And netflix used the same amount as youtube 4k video despite being 720p (maybe 1080p, didnt look that good).

jade glacier Apr 9, 2020, 5:01 PM

#

video streams buffer WAY ahead though and don't skate the razors edge of trying to get and consume packets with as little buffer time as possible.

sinful niche Apr 9, 2020, 6:34 PM

#

Hey guys, does anyone have any experience with PUN's Photon Animator View? I cannot get it to work for the life of me 😦

jade glacier Apr 9, 2020, 6:35 PM

#

How are you trying to use it currently?

#

@sinful niche

sinful niche Apr 9, 2020, 6:37 PM

#

I have a GameObject prefab which has an animation for rendering a 2d sprite walking. The Photon Transform View is working fine, however no matter what settings I utilise for the PAV none seem to work. This is what it looks like - I'm not sure if using 2020.1 is causing the problems

📎 unknown.png

jade glacier Apr 9, 2020, 6:38 PM

#

can't speak to 2020... haven't even touched that. 2019.3 is buggy enough for me already. 🙂 Is the animator just not replicating ANYTHING at all?

sinful niche Apr 9, 2020, 6:39 PM

#

The animation works locally, just not on other clients

jade glacier Apr 9, 2020, 6:39 PM

#

The vanilla pun animator isn't the most comprehensive but it usually gets some kind of working result.

#

You can try the beta SyncAnimator which is quite a bit more intensive, but you do have to add the whole beta to your project to try that, so I would save your git first.

#

https://github.com/emotitron/SNS_PUN2/releases

And its docs:https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ySmkOBsL0qJnIk7iN9lbXPlfmYTGkN7JFgKDBdqj9e8/edit#heading=h.np2ejk33mpya

#

Before trying that - do you have all of your controller code disabling when not IsMine ?

#

ie- you are sure your controllers aren't stomping on any syncing remotely

sinful niche Apr 9, 2020, 6:42 PM

#

Thanks! I do have the controller code doing so. I may also try the legacy one

#

I did last test that an hour or so ago though so I shall double-check beforehand

jade glacier Apr 9, 2020, 6:43 PM

#

Converting stuff not built specifically for networking to do networking is usually a game of hide and seek like that.

sinful niche Apr 9, 2020, 6:43 PM

#

Yeah, I only have basics so I hooked it all up today and this is the smallest thing not working but it's enough to drive me insane 😂

jade glacier Apr 9, 2020, 6:45 PM

#

Some controller code uses triggers, which might not serialize right, since they happen to fast.

#

SNS has passthrough methods you use to catch those. I don't recall if the vanilla PUN animator view has them or not.

sinful niche Apr 9, 2020, 6:47 PM

#

Yeah I've avoided triggers

sinful niche Apr 9, 2020, 7:05 PM

#

So in my "Update" function for the controller attached to each prefab, it hits IsMine as often as !IsMine as expected

#

Ok - so I done some detection of if not IsMine and looked at whether the animator.GetBool that starts the movement animation was true...it was recieved false on the client, so there seems to be some kind of issue in that property being transferred

#

...so it randomly started working...thanks guys!

jade glacier Apr 9, 2020, 7:53 PM

#

Wacky

dry wave Apr 9, 2020, 8:13 PM

#

@jade glacier @slim ridge So as requested I looked into determinism, and read a lot of other articles too. I understand better how everything should work, but I can't find any articles on what data best to send. I know what to send TO the server, but not what to send back from it. What is too much? What is required? I can't those answers. Do you have any sources I could read?

jade glacier Apr 9, 2020, 8:14 PM

#

You ideally are just syncing player inputs, that is one of the main advantages of a full deterministic system

dry wave Apr 9, 2020, 8:14 PM

#

Yes, that I understood indeed

#

But what if a player interacts with an NPC for example. How much of that NPC data do I send

#

That's what I don't know yet

#

Or if another player uses an animation. Do I just send the start of it, or do I send it frame by frame

jade glacier Apr 9, 2020, 8:15 PM

#

The server is just the final word on what each player inputs were each tick

#

To ensure every client has the exact same input history

dry wave Apr 9, 2020, 8:16 PM

#

But I understand the input, but not the output

jade glacier Apr 9, 2020, 8:16 PM

#

There is no output, that is the point

dry wave Apr 9, 2020, 8:16 PM

#

Then how would stuff be displayed?

jade glacier Apr 9, 2020, 8:16 PM

#

Locally simulations produce new states

#

By simulating each tick

#

And that produces the state results

dry wave Apr 9, 2020, 8:17 PM

#

But if Player A moves, on Player B's screen. A local simulation is not doing anything if Player B doesn't know how Player A moved?

#

So there is always some kind of output

#

But I don't know what exactly that would be

jade glacier Apr 9, 2020, 8:18 PM

#

It knows what player A's inputs were

slim ridge Apr 9, 2020, 8:18 PM

#

server would tell player B when player A is close enough along with player A's state (as it relates to player b)

dry wave Apr 9, 2020, 8:18 PM

#

@jade glacier The server knows yes, so what do you send to the other players

jade glacier Apr 9, 2020, 8:19 PM

#

The inputs

slim ridge Apr 9, 2020, 8:19 PM

#

initial state and whatever input comes after that

dry wave Apr 9, 2020, 8:19 PM

#

@slim ridge What does state entail, what data is in that state

jade glacier Apr 9, 2020, 8:19 PM

#

Every player gets every other players inputs

slim ridge Apr 9, 2020, 8:19 PM

#

everything the client can't figure outon it's own

dry wave Apr 9, 2020, 8:19 PM

#

@jade glacier You just said there is no output?

#

That is output from the server to players

jade glacier Apr 9, 2020, 8:19 PM

#

I'm out of ways to reiterate the concept, sorry

slim ridge Apr 9, 2020, 8:20 PM

#

for example: for simple objects that change position the initial state would just be a position

dry wave Apr 9, 2020, 8:20 PM

#

So what exactly would be in that output, position data or input? Because if it's only input how would a player know if an NPC moved

jade glacier Apr 9, 2020, 8:20 PM

#

The same way it knows anywhere

slim ridge Apr 9, 2020, 8:20 PM

#

a more complex state might include animation state, identifiers for different assets that need to be rendered or associated with it, etc..

dry wave Apr 9, 2020, 8:21 PM

#

So you would send, for example this (let me write something):

jade glacier Apr 9, 2020, 8:21 PM

#

Npcs are deterministic, and their actions are produced by the simulation..
The same on all clients

slim ridge Apr 9, 2020, 8:21 PM

#

another way to describe it is like designing a conversation between your server and clients

dry wave Apr 9, 2020, 8:22 PM

#

{
playerA:
position:x,y,z
animation:0,
rotation:x,y,z
...
npc1:
position:x,y,z
animation:0,
rotation:x,y,z
...
}

#

Or not?

slim ridge Apr 9, 2020, 8:22 PM

#

yeah

dry wave Apr 9, 2020, 8:23 PM

#

And you do that for any NPC / object / player in the vicinity of the player yes?

#

On every frame

#

When applicable ofc

slim ridge Apr 9, 2020, 8:23 PM

#

yeah you'd have some loop on the server that decides all this

dry wave Apr 9, 2020, 8:23 PM

#

Only the changed ones

#

Maybe I didn't explain my point of view correctly yesterday then

#

I'll look into that Azure link you sent me, see if that helps me set something up, otherwise I'll write it myself.
Thanks for the help

#

Btw this is a really good article: http://ithare.com/chapter-vib-server-side-architecture-front-end-servers-and-client-side-random-load-balancing/

#

For anyone that could use it

#

That's page 3 though you have to go to page 1 first

jade glacier Apr 9, 2020, 8:51 PM

#

If it's full determinism, the server doesn't need to run the sim.

azure quail Apr 9, 2020, 9:00 PM

#

@jade glacier in practice wouldn't you usually want server to run sim tho?

if you want people to join mid-game server should be able to send current game state
if you want to record game results at end of a match e.g. xp earned or who won/lost

just wondering if there's something i don't see

jade glacier Apr 9, 2020, 9:02 PM

#

If you need to account for late joins or disconnects it's useful yeah

dry wave Apr 9, 2020, 10:23 PM

#

So back with another question. Been looking even more into all of this, and found one decent tutorial which I've been skimming through to get a better view on the full setup. One thing I don't get yet though is collisions. Assuming you don't want to run a simulation of your game on the server, would you define every object in your game on the server via code? Or how would this work?

slim ridge Apr 9, 2020, 10:28 PM

#

in full determinism you'd define every object in your state

dry wave Apr 9, 2020, 10:28 PM

#

But your state is just object and their transform no?

slim ridge Apr 9, 2020, 10:29 PM

#

the state of one object

dry wave Apr 9, 2020, 10:29 PM

#

My question was more about how it would work

slim ridge Apr 9, 2020, 10:29 PM

#

your whole simulation has a state too

dry wave Apr 9, 2020, 10:29 PM

#

Which is what exactly?

slim ridge Apr 9, 2020, 10:29 PM

#

everything's transform

dry wave Apr 9, 2020, 10:30 PM

#

Yes. So my question still stands, how would that work?

#

Do I define all objects in code, or how would that work?

slim ridge Apr 9, 2020, 10:30 PM

#

i dunno, what tools are you using?

dry wave Apr 9, 2020, 10:31 PM

#

What tools do you suggest? 😄

slim ridge Apr 9, 2020, 10:31 PM

#

i can't help you with photon

dry wave Apr 9, 2020, 10:31 PM

#

Not photon that's peer to peer

slim ridge Apr 9, 2020, 10:31 PM

#

but that's what everyone suggests

#

photon is not just pun

weak plinth Apr 9, 2020, 10:31 PM

#

Has anyone here had major issues with webRTC crashing mac builds?

slim ridge Apr 9, 2020, 10:31 PM

#

photon = mommy of bolt, pun, quantum

dry wave Apr 9, 2020, 10:32 PM

#

Okay. To answer your tool question, none I assume

jade glacier Apr 9, 2020, 10:34 PM

#

Pun more specifically is relay. There is a server, but it's very generic and doesn't run any simulation. It handles connections and relaying messages.

#

As such, it is a client authority system in most cases, unless you write server plugins to give the server more logic.

dry wave Apr 9, 2020, 10:35 PM

#

Okay. But does anyone know the answer to my question? Or do you need more specific information?

#

Or just a direction you could send me in to find the answer would be really appreciated too

jade glacier Apr 9, 2020, 10:36 PM

#

I'm reading on a phone here, so not sure what question you are looking to have answered.

dry wave Apr 9, 2020, 10:37 PM

#

How to handle collision detection, or at least validation of a player's location, on the server side. Theoretically I understand how to do it, but how would I go about having all my objects (transforms) to check?

#

Would I need to define all of them in code? Do I have my game world running on my server? How would this work?

#

Basically if possible how do I get the world defined in Unity, but without rendering it, so I can just check transforms

jade glacier Apr 9, 2020, 10:39 PM

#

For what kind of architecture? I don't know what you are making or what lib sorry.

dry wave Apr 9, 2020, 10:39 PM

#

I don't know why that exactly matters, but I'm just trying to make a simple server for my game

jade glacier Apr 9, 2020, 10:39 PM

#

Most people just use the built in physics

dry wave Apr 9, 2020, 10:40 PM

#

Yes, but how would I do that without rendering anything? + Then I have to use a Unity build as a server no?

jade glacier Apr 9, 2020, 10:40 PM

#

So by server you mean you are doing server authority started transfer?

#

Like with mirror?

dry wave Apr 9, 2020, 10:41 PM

#

What I mean is, the player clicks, the servers moves the player. The player clicked into a wall, the server should know there is a wall. How does it know there is a wall

jade glacier Apr 9, 2020, 10:41 PM

#

That is full server authority then. There server has to run physics.

dry wave Apr 9, 2020, 10:42 PM

#

Yes I know, but how would I do that without rendering? 😄

#

then my server would be a Unity build, or not?

jade glacier Apr 9, 2020, 10:42 PM

#

By building it out as headless

dry wave Apr 9, 2020, 10:42 PM

#

Aha, I did not know that was an actual option. That already helps a lot

jade glacier Apr 9, 2020, 10:43 PM

#

Has to be Unity, unless you plug in your own physics engine or simulation

dry wave Apr 9, 2020, 10:43 PM

#

Yes I expected that, but if I can do a headless build I guess that should be fine

#

Thanks a lot for that

jade glacier Apr 9, 2020, 10:46 PM

#

Np

sacred patrol Apr 9, 2020, 11:42 PM

#

Oh hey there emotitron. Glad to see fellow competitors active in this chat.

sacred patrol Apr 10, 2020, 12:00 AM

#

Getting hammered with support requests yet ? It's been crazy month due to things happening atm.

jade glacier Apr 10, 2020, 12:13 AM

#

Heya. On which front do we compete? Are you an asset maker?

sacred patrol Apr 10, 2020, 12:14 AM

#

Simple Network Sync and AnySync

jade glacier Apr 10, 2020, 12:14 AM

#

assuming yes by the color

#

ah, right on

#

Just the usual sorts of questions, usually how to make server authority work and such.

#

Mainly working on expanding it to become part of core PUN2 stuff for Exit.

sacred patrol Apr 10, 2020, 12:15 AM

#

Oh ye, everyone wants fully authoritative movement for some reason.

jade glacier Apr 10, 2020, 12:15 AM

#

The asset itself is pretty drag and drop (until Mirror pushes breaking changes on me)

#

So I don't hear too much thankfully on the support front

#

Which they did right when I came down with my fever with Covid... literally the next morning I had two emails waiting for me saying it was throwing errors in Mirror... so that was fun.

sacred patrol Apr 10, 2020, 12:17 AM

#

Mainly working on expanding it to become part of core PUN2 stuff for Exit.
This is great. The lack of proper sync tool for PUN2 and UNet was the main reason why I decided to roll my own.

jade glacier Apr 10, 2020, 12:17 AM

#

Yeah, its a pretty common problem for the mid level apis

sacred patrol Apr 10, 2020, 12:19 AM

#

Damn dude, get well. I don't want your customers because my stuff is designed strictly for network programmers.

jade glacier Apr 10, 2020, 12:19 AM

#

Mostly over, just lingering cough stuff. We got off pretty easy if it was it.

#

I only was really full on trainwreck for about 2-3 days

#

So no complaints

#

I don't get the impression we overlap much in our asset usage. I don't really make much from it anyway, it more just has a price tag to keep it from being free. Free assets = cesspool of reviews

sacred patrol Apr 10, 2020, 12:22 AM

#

Oh yea. I learned not to make free stuff a while ago.

jade glacier Apr 10, 2020, 12:22 AM

#

Free assets = users dumping 20 free assets into a project = them then giving all of those assets 1 star for "not working"

sacred patrol Apr 10, 2020, 12:22 AM

#

Free stuff = free review bombing.

slim ridge Apr 10, 2020, 12:23 AM

#

free stuff is great, i want a better rating system

jade glacier Apr 10, 2020, 12:23 AM

#

I would have kept it free, but Unity admins make NO effort to curate.

sacred patrol Apr 10, 2020, 12:24 AM

#

I barely make anything these days either. It's very rare to spike over $100 a month.

jade glacier Apr 10, 2020, 12:24 AM

#

If it was easy to purge that dumb negative reviews that had no business being there... I would still have my old libraries up on there for free.

#

About the same, I suspect the people who buy one of ours buy both.

#

and SS as well

#

Usually my help requests consists of "Tried the built in one, SS and Anysync... does your do XXX?"

sacred patrol Apr 10, 2020, 12:25 AM

#

Wow lol. Thanks for letting me know that.

jade glacier Apr 10, 2020, 12:26 AM

#

SS gets most of the sales I think. First to market and all.

#

And they also really try to sell it as a business.

#

I literally try to convince people to not buy my stuff.

sacred patrol Apr 10, 2020, 12:27 AM

#

Same. I'm better off working on contracts instead of spending precious time on support. I'm basically telling them "go away, buy SmoothSync instead".

jade glacier Apr 10, 2020, 12:27 AM

#

They aren't worth the $8 for me to be obligated to maybe support them later.

sacred patrol Apr 10, 2020, 12:27 AM

#

I'll send them your way instead now c:

jade glacier Apr 10, 2020, 12:27 AM

#

I don't agree with SS's architecture choices, but it works for what most people are looking to do. So good enough.

#

I removed official Mirror and MLAPI support, and PUN2 they can get it basically free with the beta I have for that.

#

So I am TRYING to discourage people from buying it

sacred patrol Apr 10, 2020, 12:30 AM

#

SS is basically just lerping the position, right ? It doesn't actually keep position keyframes but just lerp them as they arrive ?

#

I'm not sure because I've never tried syncing assets.

jade glacier Apr 10, 2020, 12:31 AM

#

Its time based and doesn't do any kind of fixed buffer from what I have seen of it.

#

so it is prone to rubberbandyness and non-deterministic recreation in relation to other components.

#

basically the same issue I have with the vanilla stuff in unet/mirror/mlapi/pun

#

They just execute the smoothing and lerping much better

#

so it does what it says... it makes things smooth.

sacred patrol Apr 10, 2020, 12:32 AM

#

I see. Well, honestly this was the exact thing I was trying to avoid.

jade glacier Apr 10, 2020, 12:32 AM

#

But its still "bad" networking

sacred patrol Apr 10, 2020, 12:32 AM

#

But uh, whatever works for customers is good.

jade glacier Apr 10, 2020, 12:33 AM

#

yeah, if the rest of their game isn't tied to a fixed tick and a simulation, its not going to matter much anyway

#

its all just squishy timey whimey anyhow... not my place to try to fix that for them.

sacred patrol Apr 10, 2020, 12:36 AM

#

But this approach swallows netcode quality issues. When it comes to my solution - one wrong variable or one wrong setting and you're pretty much screwed.

#

Jittering all over the place, sliding way off screen, sliding while idling

jade glacier Apr 10, 2020, 12:37 AM

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Sounds like a recipe for a support nightmare yeah

sacred patrol Apr 10, 2020, 12:37 AM

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You name it - I've dealt with it on a support ticket.

jade glacier Apr 10, 2020, 12:37 AM

#

I didn't even incorporate handling for anything time based

#

Its all strictly on its own fixed update based tick singleton... so all the users can play with is SendEveryX physics tick

#

Makes for a lot less support issues, since it basically acts like they are on a simulation.

#

If they arent... it still works, just less than ideal.

sacred patrol Apr 10, 2020, 12:40 AM

#

I see. Well mine is kinda similar, but I still detect time drift (in case of lost packets that lose time delta, temporary app freezes, etc.) and slightly nudge it into a correct timeframe

jade glacier Apr 10, 2020, 12:40 AM

#

yeah, my original asset was like that

#

NetworkSyncTransform

#

but when I started to adapt that code base to do deterministic server auth stuff I changed it up to be a fixed tick without any squishiness, other than an Overwatch style handling for buffer reduction where clients would actually change their simulation rate to make the server happy.

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But that going backward to SNS translated into a hard fixed tick, and the only adjustment occurs if the buffers decide they are too large or small, but those hard adjust are rare.

sacred patrol Apr 10, 2020, 12:42 AM

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Going for deterministic is pricey, but always desired.

jade glacier Apr 10, 2020, 12:42 AM

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The benefit there is it is conducive to an entire system of components and such

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Its not actually determinstic, I just wanted my core buffer and timing systems to play nice with deterministic when i was doing work on that.

sacred patrol Apr 10, 2020, 12:44 AM

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I see. Mine's other way around. Mostly designed for trusting the client, but still work for authoritative servers.

jade glacier Apr 10, 2020, 12:44 AM

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Yeah, I think yours is in the vein of NST and SS

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I made SNS really as just a gateway to simulation based ring buffers for people interested in getting away from adhoc timings

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And made it possible for me to build a whole component set on top of it

sacred patrol Apr 10, 2020, 12:46 AM

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Noice. At least now I know where to send people asking about authoritative setup.

jade glacier Apr 10, 2020, 12:47 AM

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It doesn't solve that problem though, its just the tick/frame buffer engine from it.

#

Bolt is the only working answer to server authority atm

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You can't do it without manhandling the controller code and the simulation code in the networking library

#

and Bolt is the only one that has a layer that codegens for those

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I built it trying to make a server auth engine, but I ended up having to write so much I said F it.

sacred patrol Apr 10, 2020, 12:48 AM

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Getting a working client-side prediction and time rewinds is pretty much a suicide when it comes to unity, so props to fholm for getting that done.

jade glacier Apr 10, 2020, 12:49 AM

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I had to write the controller generation, the input capture, and the controller physics in order to make rewind possible. It is too much to make "just work"

#

He made his own colliders and such in Unity 4 to make it happen. And it was a support nightmare as a result.

#

So yeah, I don't touch that.

#

If people want real server auth, they need to learn to code 🙂

sacred patrol Apr 10, 2020, 12:51 AM

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I had to write the controller generation, the input capture, and the controller physics in order to make rewind possible. It is too much to make "just work"
Omfg.

jade glacier Apr 10, 2020, 12:52 AM

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I literally was recreating Bolt... so I ejected on that idea.

sacred patrol Apr 10, 2020, 12:52 AM

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If people want real server auth, they need to learn to code 🙂
That's what I've been telling my customers the whole time. Even I myself try to avoid server auth whenever I can afford to do that.

jade glacier Apr 10, 2020, 12:52 AM

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At least with prediction

#

if they want server auth without prediction, that is easy as can be. Send inputs to server... server sends states to all including the player. But that input lag is going to be objectionable.

sacred patrol Apr 10, 2020, 12:54 AM

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Yeah, player experience should never be sacrificed for anything. Input lag in most games is simply not an option.

jade glacier Apr 10, 2020, 12:54 AM

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Stadia... cough

sacred patrol Apr 10, 2020, 12:55 AM

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I'm not sure why it exists.

#

But we're talking about realtime games. There are games that aren't realtime, right ?

jade glacier Apr 10, 2020, 12:56 AM

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They have some pretty first persony games on that platform that I can't see feeling good

sacred patrol Apr 10, 2020, 12:59 AM

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So uh, what are you working on besides the asset ?

jade glacier Apr 10, 2020, 12:59 AM

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Just general work on PUN2 at Exit

sacred patrol Apr 10, 2020, 12:59 AM

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Noice.

jade glacier Apr 10, 2020, 1:00 AM

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Its kind of the older neglected asset since Bolt and then Quantum came along

#

so its been needing some love

#

Quantum is nothing short of amazing, looking forward to working with that.

sacred patrol Apr 10, 2020, 1:05 AM

#

Yeah, I can imagine that it's amazing. I've almost got my hands on it with one of the companies, but things weren't meant to be.

#

I was very sad about it.

#

But then I remembered the added difficulty that deterministic simulations imply and moved on.

#

Finally I've got some time working on my own project, since the world economy is pretty much paused at this point and nobody has spare money to pay for my services, since I'm just a contractor.

jade glacier Apr 10, 2020, 1:15 AM

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Game networking isn't going anywhere at least.

vivid owl Apr 10, 2020, 5:26 AM

#

can I get some help on MagicOnion

#

@amber trench I'm trying to figure out a way to have shared data in a hub in MagicOnion

#

as far as I'm aware, each connection gets a separate instance of the streaminghub, even if they're in the same room

#

also where are a good place I can get documentation for MagicOnion?

#

I'm going off on their readme.md for now

vivid owl Apr 10, 2020, 6:38 AM

#

the question is, how do I communicate data between the streaminghubs

amber trench Apr 10, 2020, 7:02 AM

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In my experience you can use something as simple as a reactive collection to achieve most of what you need

#

@vivid owl but yeah somewhere you will simply use a field on the room? I think that will be fine

vivid owl Apr 10, 2020, 7:09 AM

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I've looked into that

#

but do I have a separate room manager?

#

like this

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https://github.com/sotanmochi/MagicOnionExample-ActionGame/blob/master/MagicOnionActionGame.Server/src/RoomManager.cs

GitHub

sotanmochi/MagicOnionExample-ActionGame

An example project for multiplayer game using MagicOnion - sotanmochi/MagicOnionExample-ActionGame

#

MagicOnion doesn't define the concept of room in itself

#

so I would need to write my own

#

which would mean that I need to handle room load balancing myself

vivid owl Apr 10, 2020, 1:25 PM

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one question

#

how would I make sure the two Unity clients are connected to the same pod, in a kubernetes cluster setup

dry wave Apr 10, 2020, 4:42 PM

#

Alright back on it again. Found a decent tutorial series, and also bought a C# networking book. I have a big question left though. Would TCP or UDP be the preferred choice? Most interactions are quite slow paced (think RuneScape, World of Warcraft, ...) but other interactions are slightly faster-paced, yet not as fast as an FPS (think League of Legends, ...).
I know World of Warcraft uses TCP and it's still covering 1v1 PvP in the open world, League of Legends uses UDP (I think) with a tick rate of 30. Runescape has a tick rate of only 10.
But when using UDP I'd have to make sure that things like item buys, player interactions, etc are for sure coming through right? And I could use TCP disabling Nagle to have no delay but then would I still have too much overhead or would that be fine?

winged sun Apr 10, 2020, 4:49 PM

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@dry wave The thing that will slow you down your game is not TCP vs UDP debate but the implementation of memory management and packet handling.

dry wave Apr 10, 2020, 4:49 PM

#

@winged sun Yes I know, but I'm speaking only of TCP vs UDP right now. It makes sense that if you implement either badly that it'll slow down your speed significantally, but imagine both are implemented correctly.

tribal vessel Apr 10, 2020, 4:50 PM

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@dry wave If you use UDP, how do you know if the client recieved the information?

dry wave Apr 10, 2020, 4:50 PM

#

@tribal vessel By sending ACK packets.

winged sun Apr 10, 2020, 4:50 PM

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@tribal vessel You write the thing that TCP does by yourself.

dry wave Apr 10, 2020, 4:51 PM

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Part of it, not all

tribal vessel Apr 10, 2020, 4:51 PM

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so.. ah

dry wave Apr 10, 2020, 4:51 PM

#

TCP does more than just sending ACK, + you'd not re-send insignificant data.

tribal vessel Apr 10, 2020, 4:52 PM

#

also TCP auto resends data that was recived with an error in the bits. right?

#

dont we have to ASSUME there will be tramsisison errors?

winged sun Apr 10, 2020, 4:52 PM

#

@dry wave I use UDP because SteamNetworkingSockets use UDP. Thats actually the only reason. I can also recommend ENET C# by nxrightthere. These are both UDP and work pretty well. And the only reason I recommend these is because they are well made not because they are UDP.

dry wave Apr 10, 2020, 4:53 PM

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@tribal vessel All that is covered in my question, errors in positioning is fine if you have a tick rate of 30 for example

#

@winged sun I'm building it myself.

tribal vessel Apr 10, 2020, 4:53 PM

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I don't understand.. couldn't the error be the most signifcanrt bit of a coordinate?

winged sun Apr 10, 2020, 4:54 PM

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I dont recommend doing that. but you can ofc do whatever you like.

dry wave Apr 10, 2020, 4:54 PM

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No, a few milliseconds after you have a new position. That small amount of time isn't visible

tribal vessel Apr 10, 2020, 4:54 PM

#

(thanks for the explanation by the way.. sorry to jump in on your Q)

dry wave Apr 10, 2020, 4:55 PM

#

@winged sun I just need to simply send and receive data to sync clients right now. Everything on top of that is for later.

#

I can always replace stuff once I have an interface with a working prototype

winged sun Apr 10, 2020, 4:55 PM

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@dry wave ENET is exactly that. The only thing it does it sends packets.

dry wave Apr 10, 2020, 4:56 PM

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Yes but by using a library I don't know exactly how it works

#

Thanks for the tip though I'll for sure look into it, for now just wondering about my question above

winged sun Apr 10, 2020, 4:58 PM

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wow is 10 years old and the networking sucks. and runescape is webbrowser game so they do things that you would usually not do.

dry wave Apr 10, 2020, 4:59 PM

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@winged sun Abut WoW: yes exactly, networking has improved a lot of the last 10 years, so makes TCP more viable. Runescape is not a web browser game.

winged sun Apr 10, 2020, 4:59 PM

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what runescape do you mean

dry wave Apr 10, 2020, 5:00 PM

#

?

winged sun Apr 10, 2020, 5:00 PM

#

oldschool or runescape?

dry wave Apr 10, 2020, 5:00 PM

#

Either

winged sun Apr 10, 2020, 5:01 PM

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they are both browser games. idk what to tell you.

dry wave Apr 10, 2020, 5:02 PM

#

@winged sun Yes, sure, you win the argument. Can you now please reserve this channel for networking questions?

#

Alright back on it again. Found a decent tutorial series, and also bought a C# networking book. I have a big question left though. Would TCP or UDP be the preferred choice? Most interactions are quite slow paced (think RuneScape, World of Warcraft, ...) but other interactions are slightly faster-paced, yet not as fast as an FPS (think League of Legends, ...).
I know World of Warcraft uses TCP and it's still covering 1v1 PvP in the open world, League of Legends uses UDP (I think) with a tick rate of 30. Runescape has a tick rate of only 10.
But when using UDP I'd have to make sure that things like item buys, player interactions, etc are for sure coming through right? And I could use TCP disabling Nagle to have no delay but then would I still have too much overhead or would that be fine?

jade glacier Apr 10, 2020, 5:07 PM

#

Have you completed a small multiplayer game of any kind yet? Or is this going to be your first?

dry wave Apr 10, 2020, 5:14 PM

#

@jade glacier No I have. But not with Unity, nor C#

#

And it didn't matter much back then how fast it ran or anything, it was just a small project. So I understand how everything works, but not fully what the best options are.

dry wave Apr 10, 2020, 5:46 PM

#

@tribal vessel Since you were asking about this earlier. My book says the following: "UDP has no handshaking or acknowledgment signals to indicate whether a packet was properly transmitted from host to host" The handshaking part is quite important too, not just the ACK

tribal vessel Apr 10, 2020, 5:49 PM

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Ineed, and I don't see how you COULD do handshaking with broadcast packets. Or, CAN UDP be used for peer 2 peer?

dry wave Apr 10, 2020, 5:49 PM

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You could code the handshake yourself but then you really can just use TCP

#

That's why my question above was purely about latency

tribal vessel Apr 10, 2020, 5:51 PM

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I get the TCP part... not seeing how it would work with broadcast packets tho.. wouldn't EVERYONE see you handshake acknoledgements?

dry wave Apr 10, 2020, 5:51 PM

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I have no idea

#

Maybe I could tell you after finishing the book, no clue how in-depth it goes

tribal vessel Apr 10, 2020, 5:52 PM

#

ok. suspect I'm just off base on what "broadcast" means with UDP

slim ridge Apr 10, 2020, 5:56 PM

#

@dry wave maybe this article can shed some light, specifically the "can we do better than TCP" section
https://www.gafferongames.com/post/deterministic_lockstep/

dry wave Apr 10, 2020, 5:57 PM

#

Already read that

slim ridge Apr 10, 2020, 5:58 PM

#

also dont forget you can use both

dry wave Apr 10, 2020, 5:59 PM

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Yes, but when I looked into that a lot of articles said that's a bad idea.

#

You could if the functionalities are separate, for example your chat and your game systems, but having both UDP and TCP for the game system would be a bad idea.

#

Although I have been wondering why not use TCP to send information, and UDP to receive it?

slim ridge Apr 10, 2020, 6:00 PM

#

it's fine as long as you maintain control over their concerns

#

TCP and UDP doing the same protocol is a bad idea

#

is what they probably meant

dry wave Apr 10, 2020, 6:00 PM

#

Although I have been wondering why not use TCP to send information, and UDP to receive it?

#

What about this?

slim ridge Apr 10, 2020, 6:00 PM

#

it doesnt work that way

dry wave Apr 10, 2020, 6:00 PM

#

Why not?

slim ridge Apr 10, 2020, 6:01 PM

#

you cant send a tcp request and get a udp response

dry wave Apr 10, 2020, 6:01 PM

#

Yes, but why not?

prisma girder Apr 10, 2020, 6:01 PM

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TCP is a connection-oriented protocol.

#

UDP is connectionless.

slim ridge Apr 10, 2020, 6:01 PM

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because they both must bind to a port

prisma girder Apr 10, 2020, 6:01 PM

#

Also known as stateful vs stateless.

dry wave Apr 10, 2020, 6:01 PM

#

Use two ports?

prisma girder Apr 10, 2020, 6:01 PM

#

UDP doesn't actually have to bind to a port per-se.

#

But that's unrelated to why TCP can't get UDP responses.

#

TCP works by acknowledging packet send and receipt on both sides, for every packet (almost).

#

If you send a TCP packet, you must receive a TCP ack at some point.

#

Otherwise the TCP sending stack will resend it, assuming it was lost

#

UDP has no such insurance

slim ridge Apr 10, 2020, 6:02 PM

#

use TCP for things where the response is required for whatever system to move forward, use UDP for things where response is not required or can be dealt with after the system moves forward

dry wave Apr 10, 2020, 6:02 PM

#

I didn't say you can't send the ACK

prisma girder Apr 10, 2020, 6:03 PM

#

They're not the same protocol. You can't respond with UDP

dry wave Apr 10, 2020, 6:03 PM

#

But why not two streams, UDP incoming and TCP outgoing

#

(on client)

prisma girder Apr 10, 2020, 6:03 PM

#

If you want to use two streams, that's fine, but they will remain unrelated as far as the networking stack is concerned.

dry wave Apr 10, 2020, 6:04 PM

#

So going back to my original comment

#

You can just have UDP incoming, for transform updates. And TCP outgoing, for player input

#

But would that in any way be beneficial?

slim ridge Apr 10, 2020, 6:05 PM

#

you're overthinking it drissy

prisma girder Apr 10, 2020, 6:05 PM

#

Depends. Many netcodes differentiate between reliable vs unreliable delivery. Some of them try to reimplement TCP on UDP to make it reliable, but that's really unnecessary imo. TCP provides the options to make it a fine choice

dry wave Apr 10, 2020, 6:06 PM

#

@slim ridge How is that?

prisma girder Apr 10, 2020, 6:06 PM

#

Primarily by disabling the Nagle algorithm and using selective ACKs

slim ridge Apr 10, 2020, 6:06 PM

#

you're thinking so far ahead without trying anything

dry wave Apr 10, 2020, 6:06 PM

#

@prisma girder So you'd go towards TCP without Nagle? (https://discordapp.com/channels/489222168727519232/497874116246896640/698216317211115521)

#

Link is to my original question (or a copy of it)

prisma girder Apr 10, 2020, 6:07 PM

#

For reliable delivery I'd pick TCP over reimplementing reliability on UDP, yes. Bare minimum, the internet routing infrastructure is heavily tilted towards favoring actual TCP.

dry wave Apr 10, 2020, 6:07 PM

#

@slim ridge I'm just trying to understand everything that's all, to see why certain things would work better / worse

slim ridge Apr 10, 2020, 6:08 PM

#

seeing for yourself is better than trusting ppl on the internet

prisma girder Apr 10, 2020, 6:08 PM

#

If it's tuned poorly, you can get inconsistent performance, but it's not 1998 anymore

dry wave Apr 10, 2020, 6:08 PM

#

@slim ridge I bought a book though 😄 (book incudes code)

slim ridge Apr 10, 2020, 6:08 PM

#

you're going from hypothesis -> hypothesis without any experiment

#

and trying to solve problems you haven't even encountered yet

prisma girder Apr 10, 2020, 6:08 PM

#

FYI, I do this for a living. Just changed jobs but I was a cloud network architect for 10 years at a hosting provider. I can probably answer any questions you have about network protocols

dry wave Apr 10, 2020, 6:09 PM

#

@prisma girder What I'm struggling with the most is understanding when you would be okay with losing data and when not

#

In a videogame context

slim ridge Apr 10, 2020, 6:09 PM

#

i'd do the whole thing in TCP until i can actually test lag situations and make informed decisions about what to do next

dry wave Apr 10, 2020, 6:09 PM

#

I understand it outside of that

prisma girder Apr 10, 2020, 6:09 PM

#

Well that depends. If you're writing a replication system yourself, and wanting server authoritative, then you care that the server gets accurate client input.

#

You don't care as much about accurate position/velocity transfer from server to client, since deltas are usually small and missing packets will get corrected

jade glacier Apr 10, 2020, 6:10 PM

#

Largely going to come down to your state replication model as well

prisma girder Apr 10, 2020, 6:10 PM

#

^

#

The next big question is how many replicating objects you have, and how many clients, and then how do you plan to multiplex the streams.

jade glacier Apr 10, 2020, 6:11 PM

#

If you are going for fast and unreliable, you need a mechanism for eventually getting things into agreement if something gets lost

dry wave Apr 10, 2020, 6:11 PM

#

"The next big question is how many replicating objects you have" What do you mean with replicating objects?

jade glacier Apr 10, 2020, 6:11 PM

#

You can send a separate reliable channel, but you will the have to account for the asynchronous nature of the two channels.

prisma girder Apr 10, 2020, 6:11 PM

#

Anything that has state in your scene

jade glacier Apr 10, 2020, 6:11 PM

#

race conditions are networking hell

prisma girder Apr 10, 2020, 6:13 PM

#

It's also worth mentioning, UDP really isn't that unreliable. Again, it's not 1998. Yes you need to architect around dropped packets, but you should realize that these are "My wifi is disconnecting" and not so much "Oh yeah you just lose 20% of those all the time"

dry wave Apr 10, 2020, 6:13 PM

#

Ah. I don't know if this answers it, but what I thought of doing was have all physics logic on the client as well as on the server. Then based on the client input the server would know if there is a collision or not, and then send the position of the players back. (or npcs etc)

jade glacier Apr 10, 2020, 6:13 PM

#

you just have to account for lost packets, and make sure they aren't going to break anything

#

like a lost transform state is easy to deal with... a lost "pickup item" can be a bit more pesky

dry wave Apr 10, 2020, 6:14 PM

#

Yes, I understand it's not unreliable as in: if you lose 20% it doesn't matter because you send x packets per second anyway, no one notices it. But if the player consumes food for example, I want that food to be consumed and that interaction not lost.

#

So that's what I'm struggling with to understand.

#

For updates server -> client UDP seems fine for sure, the other way around I don't get, as in it seems that TCP is (almost) mandatory.

jade glacier Apr 10, 2020, 6:14 PM

#

Typically then you let the server be the authortity to avoid that headache

#

the player sends inputs, or "I try to eat this food" to the server....

#

And the server then simulates what happens to the food and the state results... and replicates those to clients

#

So worst case without any replication of lost packets... the food goes uneaten

dry wave Apr 10, 2020, 6:15 PM

#

That I understand, it makes complete sense. But the "I try to eat this food" input can get lost with UDP no?

jade glacier Apr 10, 2020, 6:15 PM

#

and the player has to try clicking again

dry wave Apr 10, 2020, 6:15 PM

#

So you implement your own ACK for input or?

prisma girder Apr 10, 2020, 6:15 PM

#

Yes, it can, in theory, in which case your replication model becomes "try to do this"

dry wave Apr 10, 2020, 6:16 PM

#

Player having to click it again is unacceptable.

prisma girder Apr 10, 2020, 6:16 PM

#

There's several ways to deal with this.

#

TCP is one.

#

ACKs is another (reimplementing TCP in UDP)

jade glacier Apr 10, 2020, 6:16 PM

#

OR you employ RUDP and force that packet to be reliable, but that can create the logjams you are avoiding. Which leaves you with the player needing an ack from the server for that tick... and if it doesn't get it sends another request.

prisma girder Apr 10, 2020, 6:16 PM

#

But a more sophisticated approach is to merge state deltas

jade glacier Apr 10, 2020, 6:17 PM

#

There is no one answer to this problem, the problem itself is the nature of high level game networking.

prisma girder Apr 10, 2020, 6:17 PM

#

Client gets click, knows state should change, sends delta to server, server is always sending deltas about state changes to client

jade glacier Apr 10, 2020, 6:17 PM

#

You employ the right answer for the game type and requirements of your game.

prisma girder Apr 10, 2020, 6:17 PM

#

If client doesn't receive updated state from server, it's able to keep sending its desired state

#

Until the server state matches.

jade glacier Apr 10, 2020, 6:18 PM

#

You will have to resolve disagreements if say your packet gets lost... some other player says they ate it next... and that gets to the server first.

dry wave Apr 10, 2020, 6:18 PM

#

But then what if the client is modified, the state would never match right?

prisma girder Apr 10, 2020, 6:18 PM

#

Welcome to decades of "how do I deal with merging multiple states over asynchronous channels"

dry wave Apr 10, 2020, 6:18 PM

#

Trading is another example, imagine you trade an item to another player and only one of them receive the traded item.

jade glacier Apr 10, 2020, 6:19 PM

#

Which is why doing this by hand is just best avoided, and its better to just come up with a server authority model that just doesn't break when these things happen, and the players have to live with some weird behavior when packetloss is present

prisma girder Apr 10, 2020, 6:19 PM

#

Step 1 is a single point of truth. That means clients may try to do something and fail.

#

Which must include inputs and clicks

jade glacier Apr 10, 2020, 6:19 PM

#

If the player tries to eat the food and its in the middle of their connection losing packets... some weirdness isn't going to end the world.

#

Or make it all reliable, and deal with the logjams.

slim ridge Apr 10, 2020, 6:19 PM

#

do the transaction somewhere reliable like a database

jade glacier Apr 10, 2020, 6:20 PM

#

You still have to unwind race conditions that played out wrong.

dry wave Apr 10, 2020, 6:20 PM

#

But, how much slower is TCP really?

prisma girder Apr 10, 2020, 6:20 PM

#

If you assume that the client is always right, and can never fail at an input or activity that involves a shared resource, then you have invented an unsolvable problem

dry wave Apr 10, 2020, 6:20 PM

#

If you just disable Nagle

#

Would it be that much slower really?

#

you could have a 100ms cache like in the article micken linked

prisma girder Apr 10, 2020, 6:21 PM

#

TCP without congestion prevention algorithms and with selective ACKs and some other tweaks is perfectly performant

jade glacier Apr 10, 2020, 6:21 PM

#

Like if the player says "I ate this on tick 9"... that gets lost... other player says "I ate this on tick 10"... if the first player finally gets its message that it ate it on tick 9... you have a choice.

sinful niche Apr 10, 2020, 6:21 PM

#

Hey guys - apologies for breaking up the conversation into my own query here, but I've been trying for...a fair amount of time 😂. I have a local PlayerPref that is stored that sets up an animator - setting the animation condition to play (it's a different sprite), however, I can't mentally piece together the correct way to do this, as what I think should work, only does so for the 2nd client to join etc, despite me using an RpcTarget.AllBuffered. Using Photon, small grab of the area of code mentioned provided.

📎 unknown.png

prisma girder Apr 10, 2020, 6:21 PM

#

Even with congestion algorithms, it's mostly fine

jade glacier Apr 10, 2020, 6:21 PM

#

and that previous now wrong state has already been sent out.

dry wave Apr 10, 2020, 6:21 PM

#

I'm copying that phrase @prisma girder

#

I'll look up what that congestion stuff is and see how to implement it later

prisma girder Apr 10, 2020, 6:22 PM

#

Most resources online about TCP behavior are old. Decades old. Most don't even cover window scaling or how slow start mostly doesn't exist

#

So I wouldn't worry too much about TCP until or unless it becomes a problem

dry wave Apr 10, 2020, 6:22 PM

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The thing is I don't want to cover everything right now, I'm completely fine with having a mediocre solution. But I don't want to completely rebuild it later. So if TCP connection would be completely fine, I can do the basics of that and look into it more in-depth later.

jade glacier Apr 10, 2020, 6:23 PM

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@sinful niche not sure where all the usage of buffered RPCs is coming from, but generally that should not be the answer to anything. Relay and PUN doesn't work like that.

dry wave Apr 10, 2020, 6:23 PM

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So from all this I take it that TCP would be fine (with adaptations), and implementing UDP would make it way more complex.

jade glacier Apr 10, 2020, 6:23 PM

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Typically if you have a bunch of stuff you need to get from a client to inform late joiners, you will want to just send that when clients detect a new player joining the room.

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@sinful niche

prisma girder Apr 10, 2020, 6:24 PM

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UDP isn't more complex really. Here's the thing

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If you use TCP for reliability, yes, it will retransmit on packet loss or corruption

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But if you wait for that, always, it may take a while with a lossy connection.

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20% loss on UDP doesn't slow you down.

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20% loss on TCP means you're stuck

jade glacier Apr 10, 2020, 6:24 PM

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Are you trying to go for razors edge low latency?

prisma girder Apr 10, 2020, 6:24 PM

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If you set very low timeouts, that's fine, but now TCP = UDP

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So... you need to plan for desync no matter what

dry wave Apr 10, 2020, 6:25 PM

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@jade glacier League of Legends latency

jade glacier Apr 10, 2020, 6:25 PM

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What does LoL use?

dry wave Apr 10, 2020, 6:25 PM

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It was in my question, one sec I check

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UDP tick rate of 30

jade glacier Apr 10, 2020, 6:25 PM

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its not the latency though, its more the tolerance for logjams

prisma girder Apr 10, 2020, 6:25 PM

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^

jade glacier Apr 10, 2020, 6:26 PM

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Like a quake type game, the buffers are very thin.. so if a packet doesn't arrive in time, its discarded anyway.

dry wave Apr 10, 2020, 6:27 PM

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Let's take Quake as an example, imagine the player shoots, you don't want that comment to disappear right? How is that handled

jade glacier Apr 10, 2020, 6:27 PM

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If you have a giant deterministic system in play, you might want TCP or RUDP all the way, to avoid desync hell

dry wave Apr 10, 2020, 6:27 PM

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Because I'm quite sure (most) shooters use UDP

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@jade glacier Yes I do actually

jade glacier Apr 10, 2020, 6:27 PM

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If you shoot in quake and you lose those packets, I am not sure sure that shot does exist.

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it doesn't rewrite history

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because the server is a train that keeps rolling

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and once it simulates, that is now the word of god

prisma girder Apr 10, 2020, 6:28 PM

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@dry wave You're not factoring in client prediction.

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Maybe this is part of your confusion