#archived-networking | Official Unity Discord | Page 56

gray pond Nov 8, 2019, 10:29 PM

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that's AWS's problem

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and off topic

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I'm talking about aim bots and wall hacks

weak plinth Nov 8, 2019, 10:30 PM

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It's not off topic at all. I'm trying to tell you that you are trying to do right things in wrong places

gray pond Nov 8, 2019, 10:30 PM

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player A shoots B through a wall - server says no hit, period

weak plinth Nov 8, 2019, 10:30 PM

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Has no relation to seeing though a wall

gray pond Nov 8, 2019, 10:31 PM

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player A can spend all the ammo he wants, server isn't going to score that hit

weak plinth Nov 8, 2019, 10:31 PM

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This still has no relation to seeing through a wall

gray pond Nov 8, 2019, 10:31 PM

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doesn't matter if A has a wall hack to see through the wall

weak plinth Nov 8, 2019, 10:31 PM

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Have you ever played an FPS game?

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Being able to allign a headshot at someone that is running around a corner

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Makes you have a pretty good advantage

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And the server will say 👌 to this

gray pond Nov 8, 2019, 10:32 PM

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Mostly I play Rpg's but doesn't matter - server decides what you hit

weak plinth Nov 8, 2019, 10:32 PM

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Also, imagine in games like siege, where you can literally shoot through a lot of walls

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As far as the server concerns it's legit

gray pond Nov 8, 2019, 10:33 PM

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at close range you'd have made that hit anyway - not much advantage

weak plinth Nov 8, 2019, 10:33 PM

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Same bad assumption

gray pond Nov 8, 2019, 10:33 PM

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server's not going to allow a long range shot

weak plinth Nov 8, 2019, 10:33 PM

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Why not?

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You are limiting the range of weapons because? To prevent wallhacks?

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Or because of the silly assumption "you'd have made that hit anyway"

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I think you need to look at some footage of highly competitive FPS games like CSGO or Siege

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And estimate how much benefit seeing through a wall would have

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(There's plenty of videos showcasing wallhacks in these games)

gray pond Nov 8, 2019, 10:35 PM

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I'm limiting the raycast distance on the server, sure, to some sane makeable shot distance

weak plinth Nov 8, 2019, 10:35 PM

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Again, trying to solve the right problem at the wrong place

gray pond Nov 8, 2019, 10:36 PM

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sure, knowing someone is about to peek out from behind a wall would help a bit I get that, but outside 50m that target isn't known to the shooter anyway

weak plinth Nov 8, 2019, 10:36 PM

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help a bit

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Being able to insta-kill someone that literally has no change of reacting to you

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I wouldn't call that "a bit"

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And FPS games with open maps and long-range weapons are a thing

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The Halo series has plenty of maps that exceed 50 metres

gray pond Nov 8, 2019, 10:37 PM

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so where besides the server would you "solve" such a problem?

weak plinth Nov 8, 2019, 10:37 PM

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And weapons that can make this shot

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Try to on a client

gray pond Nov 8, 2019, 10:37 PM

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nah

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client can't be trusted for shit

weak plinth Nov 8, 2019, 10:38 PM

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And try to make some determination on the server side if someone is abusing software

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NOT by limiting people with overly convoluted systems

gray pond Nov 8, 2019, 10:38 PM

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I don't see a raycast that only goes to 50m as convoluted

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that's pretty straightforward

weak plinth Nov 8, 2019, 10:38 PM

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I do. Since you are now making a game with a hard-cap of 50m range

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Rip to all Battlefield games

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50m max, better drive your vehicle close to the other player before you can do something

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Sounds like a serious problem to me

gray pond Nov 8, 2019, 10:39 PM

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oh wait - you ASSUME I'd be making a modern game with modern weapons and vehicles?

weak plinth Nov 8, 2019, 10:39 PM

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Type of game has no relation to this*

gray pond Nov 8, 2019, 10:40 PM

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closest thing to a vehicle would be a horsedrawn cart

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ranged weapon would be a crossbow

weak plinth Nov 8, 2019, 10:41 PM

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If you think you can outsmart widely used solutions like anti-cheat or VAC

gray pond Nov 8, 2019, 10:41 PM

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so no, I don't see a hit chance beyond 50m as reasonable

weak plinth Nov 8, 2019, 10:41 PM

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With some overly convoluted system that is going to drain a lot of recources. Go ahead

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You are too stubborn to listen it seems. And are making far too many assumptions

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Maybe some professionals in this channel are willing to weigh in on this

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Maybe ~~they can convince you~~ you'll listen to them

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Lol

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It is possible to do 50 m shots

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And baning people for that its just dumb

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And there is lucky shots aswell

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Are u gonna baan for them aswell?

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Ban*

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Complex has a point afterall

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@weak plinth Go look at some Rainbow Six Siege lucky shot compilations 😂

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They are brilliant

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I have done like across the map kills in cod

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More than 50 m obv

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tho i want to find some moddable game

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Context?

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idk

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Development?

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Playing?

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dev

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i mean

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i can modd it

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Just in general?

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well atleast use of photon

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as multi

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Wait...

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You want to MOD an EXISTING game to be multiplayer using photon?

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yeah

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Uhm.

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Probably not going to happen... ever

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why caps?

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To emphasize

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why not?

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To make sure that we are talking about the same thing

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Why not?
Photon is meant to be used in Unity afaik

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In the sense of a framework

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A development framework

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lol

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i already modded a game using photon

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And outside of that, single player games are developed to be single player

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And not to be multiplayer

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That's going to require a lot of hacky duct taping to get that to work

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If it's ever going to work semi decently

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Look at Skyrim Together

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lol

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That descibes pretty much what you want

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well

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i am looking for some light game

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cuz my laptop sucks

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I'm implying there that skyrim together is a mess

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And many things simply cannot be networked

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Because the game isn't designed for that

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lol

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well

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it is enough to find exploits

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Ask emotitron

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He's very well versed in Photon and networking concepts in general

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It wouldn't surprise me if he tells you exactly the same

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And if I'm wrong, I want to know why 🤓

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so

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recap all that again

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lol

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Afaik, Photon is made to be a multiplayer framework for Unity

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Making single player games multiplayer is difficult if not impossible to do well because the games aren't designed for multiplayer

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oh

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lol

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u got me wrong i think

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i am looking for games that use photon for multi

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does that makes sense?

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So games that are already multiplayer

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And already use photon?

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yeah

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exactly

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Ah

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like vr chat for ex

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That's an entirely different story

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If this game already has a mod API defined

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It's going to probably be smooth sailing

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even if it doesnt

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its not a problem

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so bruv

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do u know any game?

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Nope, no clue, sorry

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rip

gleaming prawn Nov 8, 2019, 11:23 PM

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THis chat is funny...:)

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@weak plinth he's talking about hacking a client authoritative game made with PUN, not modding a game in the classic sense of using provided sripts to create a variation.

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@gray pond when I said wallhacks and aimbots I was relating to using information that's alredy on the clients for server-based games, not client authoritative ones

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Like:

if you are close enough to an enemy, the server does give the client the data... then a hacked video card driver can be used to show the enemy silhouete behind a wall

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You can NOT shoot through the wall in server based games (or deterministic ones), like you said.

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But just seeing already gives you advantage... And aimbotting is just moving the mouse faster to hit better stuff that you already see (so server has no way to protect against these)

weak plinth Nov 8, 2019, 11:28 PM

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This is what I was saying/trying to say

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And Gadget is severely underestimating the benefit wall hacking has

gleaming prawn Nov 8, 2019, 11:29 PM

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wallhacks and aimbots are 100% possible in server authoritative games...

weak plinth Nov 8, 2019, 11:30 PM

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I, as a vidid FPS enthusiast, although annecdotal, can vouch for the massive benefit wallhacks have in FPS games

gleaming prawn Nov 8, 2019, 11:30 PM

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CS, Fortnite, Apex Legends, these are all server authoritative... Just search a bit to find these "tools" for them...:)

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BUt, of course client authoritative games (or semi client authoritative like Battlefield) are easier...:)

weak plinth Nov 8, 2019, 11:34 PM

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Who hacking?

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Difficult to find which ones are real for sure (there's a lot of spam )

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https://youtu.be/fkuNS_7Y2UM?t=95
But this one is authentic

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Tbh cheaters suck cuz they got no skillz so they use cheats

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYSP5oLVU1o

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Here's a wonderful combination of wallhack and aimbots

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It's only a bit of advantage though lmao (/s)

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Cheaters just ruin the game for everyone.

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I mean...
https://youtu.be/9sHn-ZJZ61g?t=156

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Both not the videos I was trying to find

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But it does illustrate that client-side hacks are very well possible

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@gleaming prawn Oh, I just now entirely understood what he was saying 😂

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2 people having 2 diferent conversarions (:

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Client side can do many things xd

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And with exploits even server side

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Which is cool

sick remnant Nov 9, 2019, 2:33 AM

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Is it possible to make a multiplayer game without going through Unity's infrastructure? I'm curious what it offers over other services.

weak plinth Nov 9, 2019, 2:35 AM

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What do you mean by Unity's infrastructure?

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UNet?

sick remnant Nov 9, 2019, 2:36 AM

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Yes

weak plinth Nov 9, 2019, 2:37 AM

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Well, for one UNet is deprecated

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And quite bad in the first place

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And you can use anything to make a multiplayer game you want

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You can use pre-existing solutions, like photon

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Or implement something yourself

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What ever suits your needs

chrome frost Nov 9, 2019, 12:44 PM

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Im new to unity and networking(on unity).
So im searching the best "base" for my game.

Do i understand it correctly that photon can only be hosted on their cloud system ?
Or can i host a server my self on a dedicated server ?
Is photon good or should i use a other one (unet ?)?

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Oh as i see in the documentation you can host it your self.
But the documentation/tutorial use the cloud, is there a tutorial for selfhosting ?

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oh wait you also have to pay for self hosted server ? wtf

weak plinth Nov 9, 2019, 1:04 PM

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UNet is dead

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And in the case of photon, you always use their service

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There's a free option as well afaik

chrome frost Nov 9, 2019, 1:05 PM

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Is there a other good networking stuff which is free on self hosting ?

weak plinth Nov 9, 2019, 1:07 PM

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Uhm, good is subjective here

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But I don't know all of the options on the top of my head

jade glacier Nov 9, 2019, 1:40 PM

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Your first networked games will pretty much be garbage, so save your dream game for after doing some tutorials and prototypes.

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Give yourself a couple months of just making tests and learning projects before even trying to ask which is best.

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That will give you a starting point for asking the right questions.

chrome frost Nov 9, 2019, 2:11 PM

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Sure i will not start with my "dream game", but why should i start learning with Software X if this is dead (e.g. unet as Complex said) ?

dapper night Nov 9, 2019, 2:15 PM

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Hello everyone,
im looking for advices for wrong simulations correction,
im using ECS and ENet to sync the Game between clients and server.
for the moment im sending only inputs from client to server then the server send them back to all clients and they do the simulation again.
this approach is working like a charm on local networks but there's sync problems for players with high latency.
so what im looking for is how can correct wrong simulations on clients knowing that i can predict where the client should be in the present? (from it's input , past position and it's latency )

graceful zephyr Nov 9, 2019, 3:30 PM

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@dapper night is this only syncing inputs and depending on simulation results being the same everywhere?

dapper night Nov 9, 2019, 3:33 PM

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@graceful zephyr yes im trying to do the simulation everywhere and correct if something went wrong

graceful zephyr Nov 9, 2019, 3:34 PM

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@dapper night so you are trying to do prediction/rollback determinism?

dapper night Nov 9, 2019, 3:35 PM

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exactly and im looking for good approaches to do the rollback determinism

graceful zephyr Nov 9, 2019, 3:37 PM

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What do you mean by good approaches?

dapper night Nov 9, 2019, 3:38 PM

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knowing after few frames the server will send the current state + the inputs so the client can predict the real present (in server side simulation) and correct the client side wrong states.

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i mean do you guys did that before ? and what are your advices (it's my first experience in game networking )

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i saw a lot of GDCs but still not really clear

graceful zephyr Nov 9, 2019, 3:39 PM

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If you are sending state you don't need determinism

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Yea I've implemented this several times and several variations of it

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Unity's new networking does this, check their github

dapper night Nov 9, 2019, 3:41 PM

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for example , how do you correct client side predictions for the local player when the user is actually moving it at the same time?

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do you override user inputs or just move the character over the user inputs

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im sending states at a very low rate due to it's bandwidth consumption, im sending inputs 30/s and states 3/s

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my inputs are just 4bytes

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each player and states are 8 bytes/player

weak plinth Nov 9, 2019, 3:45 PM

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Is someone using unity as standalone server build with custom networking?

dapper night Nov 9, 2019, 3:48 PM

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@weak plinth yes im using unity as my headless server instance with ENet for networking stuff

graceful zephyr Nov 9, 2019, 4:01 PM

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@dapper night you store the old state of the simulation and reset it? inject the inputs and re-run

weak plinth Nov 9, 2019, 4:50 PM

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i think

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for self hosting

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u use photon sdk

civic junco Nov 9, 2019, 5:34 PM

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https://github.com/Unity-Technologies/multiplayer

GitHub

Unity-Technologies/multiplayer

Unity multiplayer packages and samples. Contribute to Unity-Technologies/multiplayer development by creating an account on GitHub.

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dots netcode is where things are moving towards
not sure how useful the public commits are and documentation is pretty much non-existing afaik

weak plinth Nov 9, 2019, 5:36 PM

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I'd hold off on DOTS if you are planning to release a product

civic junco Nov 9, 2019, 5:36 PM

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yeh they made a nice chart that can push you into the appropriate direction but im having trouble finding it

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https://blogs.unity3d.com/2019/06/13/navigating-unitys-multiplayer-netcode-transition/

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tada

mellow beacon Nov 9, 2019, 5:37 PM

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Yup

gleaming prawn Nov 9, 2019, 6:41 PM

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That blog post...

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🙂

weak plinth Nov 10, 2019, 12:38 AM

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If Unet's dead, what's replacing it and is it out already?

weak plinth Nov 10, 2019, 1:13 AM

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Unity is doing something networking related

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But I wouldn't hold my breath

weak plinth Nov 10, 2019, 1:34 AM

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What is the best way for a baby nublet such as myself to start learning networking on Unity?

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Depends what you want to learn

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If you want to just make a game, there's libraries available such as photon that allow you to network your game somewhat easy

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You of course still need some knowledge about networking to make it work

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I know a tiny bit about networking, but not much.

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Once made a basic two-player localhost thing years ago using Unity

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There's a big difference between wanting to learn networking or wanting to make a networked game

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One of the people here, Emotitron, often recommends spending some months making a simple pong game networked

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📎 unknown.png

weak plinth Nov 10, 2019, 2:20 AM

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That sounds like a good idea.

jade glacier Nov 10, 2019, 2:52 AM

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It also spares you from a lot of failure and a sense of futility

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more fun to actually have a couple successes

weak plinth Nov 10, 2019, 3:18 AM

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So what tutorial do you recommend?

final depot Nov 10, 2019, 5:49 AM

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Is there a RUDP library out there with LAN discovery?

graceful zephyr Nov 10, 2019, 10:59 AM

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@final depot LiteNetLib

weak plinth Nov 10, 2019, 1:25 PM

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Who was an expert on photon here?

jade glacier Nov 10, 2019, 1:27 PM

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Photon has a bunch of libs, but there are a few guys who work for Exit usually around

weak plinth Nov 10, 2019, 1:30 PM

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So I can use the principles used in the Unity FPS sample in a diablo-like game? 🤔

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Well i was curious to know

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Why they changed tcp bytes form like udps one

jade glacier Nov 10, 2019, 1:54 PM

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I don't get the question, sorry @weak plinth

weak plinth Nov 10, 2019, 1:55 PM

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You know

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Data is sent in bytes

jade glacier Nov 10, 2019, 1:55 PM

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yeah, all networking is byte[]

weak plinth Nov 10, 2019, 1:55 PM

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Yes

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But the header and all bytes were different from protocol to protocol

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But now they are all the same

jade glacier Nov 10, 2019, 1:56 PM

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Is there some documentation you are referring to for this? Still not sure what that means in this context.

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You mean how big the headers are?

weak plinth Nov 10, 2019, 1:56 PM

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Nop i am not referring to any doc

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No

jade glacier Nov 10, 2019, 1:57 PM

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Different how?

weak plinth Nov 10, 2019, 1:57 PM

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Example bytes were 1,2,3 etc on udp

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And on tcp

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They were 2,3,4

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The start

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Or header

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It was always different on both protocols

jade glacier Nov 10, 2019, 1:58 PM

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Dunno sorry, not sure how you are reading those bytes or from where

weak plinth Nov 10, 2019, 1:58 PM

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Welp

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From photon dll ofc

jade glacier Nov 10, 2019, 1:59 PM

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the photon dll is a big place

weak plinth Nov 10, 2019, 1:59 PM

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Yes kind off

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But i checked on enetpeer and tpeer

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Which is where all data bytes spread on other places

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Like for ex going to protocol

jade glacier Nov 10, 2019, 2:00 PM

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Guys like Erick have more experience with the Photon Server and may know what you are referring to

weak plinth Nov 10, 2019, 2:00 PM

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Ncommand etc

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Yeah

regal forum Nov 10, 2019, 2:16 PM

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I'm starting to work on a multiplayer game. Are there any "must read" articles/books for the network communication and design patterns?

graceful zephyr Nov 10, 2019, 2:51 PM

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@regal forum nah there's not really anything like that sorry

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there's a few GDC talks, a few articles spread around, etc.

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but that's about it

weak plinth Nov 10, 2019, 4:53 PM

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I'm looking more and more into that Unity FPS sample. It's quite nice

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Even that they use basically just UDP

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But I wonder, does this fit with a game like Diablo?

graceful zephyr Nov 10, 2019, 5:24 PM

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@weak plinth it can, but games that want A LOT of perfectly replicated units on screen

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usually need to do some bespoke stuff

weak plinth Nov 10, 2019, 6:33 PM

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A lot? 🤔 What do you mean "bespoke stuff" ?

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I don't mind adjusting my game to have less entities on screen

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I'm perfectly fine with having a cap of, say 16 enemies or something

graceful zephyr Nov 10, 2019, 6:34 PM

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D3 for example is some weird blend between state sync and determinism AFAIK

weak plinth Nov 10, 2019, 6:34 PM

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Ah, I see

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And that FPS sample is just state sync?

graceful zephyr Nov 10, 2019, 6:34 PM

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yes

weak plinth Nov 10, 2019, 6:35 PM

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I'm not aiming for the bullet-hell like gameplay like Diablo has anyway. Just want to know if state sync is viable for such a product

graceful zephyr Nov 10, 2019, 6:35 PM

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yes it is

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state sync is viable for MOST games

weak plinth Nov 10, 2019, 6:35 PM

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Good to know! Thanks 🙂

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I've watched a talk that explains some things about that demo. Was really useful

graceful zephyr Nov 10, 2019, 6:36 PM

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state sync generally has two sub groups:

snapshot interpolation
state extrapolation

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and generally has two transfer methods:

delta snapshots
eventual consistency

weak plinth Nov 10, 2019, 6:36 PM

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As I understand that demo has 1 and 1

graceful zephyr Nov 10, 2019, 6:36 PM

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IN GENERAL, there's probably many more variants in the wild

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yes

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fps sample is snapshot interp with delta snapshots

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photon bolt is 1 and 2, snapshot interp with eventual consistency

weak plinth Nov 10, 2019, 6:37 PM

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And they have some determinism in there as well. The guy explained that it was for missing or out of order packets

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It serves more for interpolation I think

graceful zephyr Nov 10, 2019, 6:37 PM

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yeah peter, he's a nice guy, met him several times irl

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knows his shit

weak plinth Nov 10, 2019, 6:37 PM

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He sounded like it 😄

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Too bad he didn't have time to explain some of the other things

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He went over interpolation very briefly

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And had no time to address the leading shots thing

graceful zephyr Nov 10, 2019, 6:38 PM

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you mean lag comp?

weak plinth Nov 10, 2019, 6:38 PM

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I think so. The presentation called it "leading shots"

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It has to do with the player having to shoot in front of the player

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So when the message arrives at the server, he's shooting where the player is

graceful zephyr Nov 10, 2019, 6:39 PM

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lag comp is simply setting the state of the game on the server to whatever the client saw when executing the clients fire cmd, so the client doent have to lead the shots to compensate for lag by hand

weak plinth Nov 10, 2019, 6:39 PM

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Yeah, that

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Hmm. Strange though that games like Halo 2 and 3 didn't have this

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If it's that simple

graceful zephyr Nov 10, 2019, 6:39 PM

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because its expensive

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both memory and cpu wise

weak plinth Nov 10, 2019, 6:40 PM

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Ahhh

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That explains

graceful zephyr Nov 10, 2019, 6:40 PM

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xbox360 can't do that for a 16 player match

weak plinth Nov 10, 2019, 6:40 PM

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Yeah, I figured

graceful zephyr Nov 10, 2019, 6:40 PM

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its VERY expensive

weak plinth Nov 10, 2019, 6:40 PM

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What about Reach then? That was a 360 game also

graceful zephyr Nov 10, 2019, 6:40 PM

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it's expensive enough that not even battlefield V does it for example

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because its a 64 player game

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it also has issues with animation replication accuracy and such

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i much prefer battlefields model

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where they have client side hit detection, but the server 'verifies' the hit by doing a plausible/simplified check

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gives clients full accuracy locally

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but still allows server to verify hits to combat cheaters, etc.

weak plinth Nov 10, 2019, 6:42 PM

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Sounds like a reasonable idea. But I'm sure it also has its drawbacks

graceful zephyr Nov 10, 2019, 6:43 PM

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i think its the best of both worlds

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personally

weak plinth Nov 10, 2019, 6:45 PM

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https://youtu.be/jn9nFPxTyNg?t=1531
I've always wondered about this

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What do you think is going on with the networking of this game?

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That other players are jerking about so much

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It looks like there's no interpolation at all

graceful zephyr Nov 10, 2019, 6:51 PM

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@weak plinth PSO is an mmo right?

weak plinth Nov 10, 2019, 6:51 PM

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Yeah

graceful zephyr Nov 10, 2019, 6:51 PM

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MMO is usually custom/bespoke through and through

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very hard to say

weak plinth Nov 10, 2019, 6:51 PM

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The only thing I know for sure is that it's TCP

graceful zephyr Nov 10, 2019, 6:52 PM

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impossible to know

solar garden Nov 11, 2019, 7:38 AM

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Im struggling with server reconciliation, when you send your inputs you have to store them on the client for reconciliation. On the wayback the server has to tell witch inputs had been consumed by returning the last input id so the client can drop every inputs after this point and then use the rest to create the new prediction is this correct ?

graceful zephyr Nov 11, 2019, 8:24 AM

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yes

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@solar garden

solar garden Nov 11, 2019, 8:25 AM

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Really ? Oh waw

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But then how do you create the prediction with the unprocessed inputs ? Do you localy move the player as you would with its movement script and then return the final position ?

jade glacier Nov 11, 2019, 1:39 PM

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Inputs and State results are all stored with the tick/frame ID

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And you set up your serialization to and from the server to make it so you can work out which tick was which. There are different ways to handle that. I personally let every machine have its own current tick number and I create an offset to translate that to other connections ticks, or you can make them all conform to the server. Its not simple to do, but its just a math problem.

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The client applies its input struct to the previous state, and stores that struct with the frame ID it was applied to.

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Then it sends that struct out with a header indicating which tick it was for

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the server gets it, and buffers it, and soon after consumes it (when it ticks its sim)

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When the server sends that out, it includes the tick number and the state results

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The owner client compares the state results with what it had gotten for that tick to determine if it is still in sync. If not, it resimulates from that disagreeing tick (changing its state results to the servers state results)... and resimulates by applying each input struct that ticked after that.

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@solar garden

weak plinth Nov 11, 2019, 1:46 PM

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Some of the things I've come across in the Unity FPS Sample look like they have been very hastely implemented to get it working/done 🤔

graceful zephyr Nov 11, 2019, 1:47 PM

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@weak plinth welcome to gamedev 101

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if it works its not wrong

weak plinth Nov 11, 2019, 1:47 PM

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😂
Makes it hard for a noobie like me to understand though

graceful zephyr Nov 11, 2019, 1:48 PM

#

which part do you mean?

weak plinth Nov 11, 2019, 1:50 PM

#

I'm looking at the local player part.
And the Game.cs and Inputsystem.cs look like a mess

#

Especially Game.cs

#

https://github.com/Unity-Technologies/FPSSample/blob/147f4719b61c2857d342bc0722c88d165bab3378/Assets/Scripts/Game/Main/Game.cs

graceful zephyr Nov 11, 2019, 1:51 PM

#

tbh nothing that looks weird there

#

looks pretty tidy

#

maybe they could split each type into its own file

#

but i mean its not a big thing

#

95% of the file is one class

solar garden Nov 11, 2019, 1:52 PM

#

@jade glacier Ok wow thanks for the detailed answere i'll focus on it for a bit, so this was for the server reconciliation, about the client prediction you have to store the inputs locally until the server returns the input frame id then you delete all inputs from the local list up to this point and then from the last position known you add the inputs to it so you have the next position to lerp to is it correct ?

jade glacier Nov 11, 2019, 1:53 PM

#

You want the server to correct?

#

you can, but you have to ask yourself what you are protecting against at that point

solar garden Nov 11, 2019, 1:53 PM

#

no no the client

jade glacier Nov 11, 2019, 1:53 PM

#

ah

solar garden Nov 11, 2019, 1:54 PM

#

the client has to work to be in sync right ?

jade glacier Nov 11, 2019, 1:54 PM

#

As a starting point, store all inputs and all states in a buffer

solar garden Nov 11, 2019, 1:54 PM

#

but i struggle with the prediction

jade glacier Nov 11, 2019, 1:54 PM

#

and number them, as a ring buffer or however you see fit

#

prediction itself is easy, you just apply the same inputs locally that you will on the server... using the same simulation code

#

I personally modify my results on the owner side to quantize to the lossy values being used by the networking

#

so if you compress your positions, you want to apply the decompressed value locally, so that your owner has the same rounding applied that the server will be coming up with

solar garden Nov 11, 2019, 1:56 PM

#

ahhh but in practice i should do this on a empty transform for to return to the player entity to render right ?

jade glacier Nov 11, 2019, 1:57 PM

#

And the other way as well, the server sends out states, and if they are compressed in a lossy way, you will probably want to apply those lossy values after simulation... to keep things as deterministic as possible... but that is getting a little more advanced that what you are on now.

#

Lost me there

#

You mean when you actually resimulate?

solar garden Nov 11, 2019, 2:01 PM

#

i mean like in unity how would you do this local thing where you predict the movements with the movement script and stored inputs, i guess i shouldn't do it on the player it self because it will be jittery i saw videos where there would be "two players" one would be invisible and process the finale position and the "render player" is the one who is lerped the other ones target porsition

#

idk if it was only for show or something you has to do

jade glacier Nov 11, 2019, 2:02 PM

#

There are two are three worlds in play here

#

there is the states... which are the actual tick results

solar garden Nov 11, 2019, 2:03 PM

#

server*

jade glacier Nov 11, 2019, 2:03 PM

#

there is the scene, which is the mostly cosmetic view of those states being interpolated for smoothness

#

and there may be a 3rd, which is your ghost world for resims and such if you want to do your scratch work for resims without playing around with your main physics scene

#

The state buffer contain the actual history of stuff in tick form. The Scene is always interpolating/extrapolating from that.

#

And resmins is the going back into your history and changing things

solar garden Nov 11, 2019, 2:04 PM

#

you mean like actuall additive scenes ??

jade glacier Nov 11, 2019, 2:05 PM

#

Nope

solar garden Nov 11, 2019, 2:05 PM

#

oh

jade glacier Nov 11, 2019, 2:05 PM

#

The scene is messy in Unity

#

because its a merger of states and interpolation

#

PhysX is an example of that... like in Update() if you get the position of a rigidbody with rb.position and rb.transform.position .... they will be different

#

rb.position is the LAST tick result (the state)

#

rb.transform.position is the current transform state in the scene... which is framerate dependent interpolation/extrapolation (depending on your settings) of the previous PhysX states

#

Your states are more like rb.position

#

What you see in the scene is more like rb.transform.position

solar garden Nov 11, 2019, 2:09 PM

#

Not sure what you mean here but thank you for all the info i'll focus on it !

rocky shore Nov 11, 2019, 2:28 PM

#

Hey, I'm looking for a solution to import prefabs at runtime. Basically instead of having all content in my app, I want to have the prefabs hosted on my server, and import them when the user wants the prefab, then giving the user the option to also remove prefab again from their phone. This is to save space, as we'll have a ton of prefabs that would greatly enlarge the app size. Just importing an obj or fbx isn't an option because we need to keep the components with their settings intact. Is there any solution for this?

solar garden Nov 11, 2019, 2:29 PM

#

Bundles and Resources

#

more bundles for prefabs

#

https://docs.unity3d.com/Manual/AssetBundlesIntro.html

#

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vgvka2_jBJw

YouTube

IMERSITY

Using AssetBundles In Unity 2018

With the AssetBundle system, you can store multiple files in an archival format that Unity can index and serialize. So using Assetbundles brings benefits suc...

▶ Play video

rocky shore Nov 11, 2019, 2:30 PM

#

Thanks!

random drift Nov 11, 2019, 2:57 PM

#

hello dani everybody i need some help
i have built my game on the singleplayer mode
and when i tried to make it multiplayer
i face some issues
in some scripts i need some components and objects in the player-object
and when i delete it from the scene to make it multiplayer
it says missing objects and nothing works
does anyone know how to solve that?

weak plinth Nov 11, 2019, 3:15 PM

#

Oh, the FPS sample uses ACTUAL ECS 😦

graceful zephyr Nov 11, 2019, 3:19 PM

#

@weak plinth it uses hybrid yes

weak plinth Nov 11, 2019, 3:20 PM

#

That makes it a tad bit more complicated for me to understand 😂

graceful zephyr Nov 11, 2019, 3:22 PM

#

¯_(ツ)_/¯

jade glacier Nov 11, 2019, 3:24 PM

#

@random drift Don't delete your controllers from player objects, you just want to make them conditional based on if the local connection has authority/ownership

#

Not entirely sure what you are deleting, but that sounds a bit extreme

random drift Nov 11, 2019, 3:37 PM

#

@jade glacier
i delete that object the character

📎 2019-11-11_173336.png

#

and when i do that these vars be missing

📎 2019-11-11_173356.png

jade glacier Nov 11, 2019, 3:38 PM

#

those should be pointing at assets, not scene objects I suspect

random drift Nov 11, 2019, 3:38 PM

#

and i do that so the player spawns

📎 2019-11-11_173527.png

jade glacier Nov 11, 2019, 3:39 PM

#

No idea what Respawning players is doing, but when you start you will have no player object in the scene and one will be spawned.

#

in OnStartLocalPlayer on that object you will want to add it to your list

#

Have you done any unet or mirror tutorials?

random drift Nov 11, 2019, 3:43 PM

#

uNet

#

i used that tutorial

#

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-m28axeuRNs&t=1532s

YouTube

Brackeys

Making a Multiplayer FPS in Unity (E03. Networking Intro) - uNet T...

We start adding multiplayer functionality by setting up a NetworkManager and spawning the player on the network. ● Download cool Weapons: http://devassets.co...

▶ Play video

jade glacier Nov 11, 2019, 3:44 PM

#

And you got it working?

random drift Nov 11, 2019, 3:45 PM

#

it works but i have some issue with vars
it worked well on a project has a character only

jade glacier Nov 11, 2019, 3:45 PM

#

My guess is the problem you currently are having is you are referecing your scene object in that list of items

#

rather than the prefab in assets

random drift Nov 11, 2019, 3:46 PM

#

i think u r right

#

but still there another issue when i use prefab in asset
i cant play sounds it says
Can not play a disabled audio source
UnityEngine.AudioSource:Play()

#

thanks! anyway @jade glacier

weak plinth Nov 11, 2019, 4:12 PM

#

I can't seem to find where the UserCommand is applied locally

graceful zephyr Nov 11, 2019, 4:49 PM

#

@weak plinth in fps sample?

weak plinth Nov 11, 2019, 4:49 PM

#

Yeah

graceful zephyr Nov 11, 2019, 4:51 PM

#

@weak plinth should not be hard to figure out? Just find references on user cmd

karmic void Nov 11, 2019, 4:54 PM

#

Any one has info/news about: https://coherence.io/ ??

Coherence

Open, accessible and fast cloud platform for persistent connected games.

weak plinth Nov 11, 2019, 5:01 PM

#

            .SetComponentData<UserCommandComponentData>(m_LocalPlayer.controlledEntity, userCommand);```
Here was my guess

#

But I don't know the implementation details of SetComponentData

gleaming prawn Nov 11, 2019, 5:06 PM

#

@karmic void we're all curious

#

But not much yet

jade glacier Nov 11, 2019, 5:10 PM

#

Definitely interesting

weak plinth Nov 11, 2019, 5:14 PM

#

What is "Modules" in the FPSSample?

jade glacier Nov 11, 2019, 5:14 PM

#

Some big claims on a small page there. Curious to see the actual software.

graceful zephyr Nov 11, 2019, 5:21 PM

#

@karmic void I know the guys behind it

#

Nice guys, know what they are doing

#

But no details yet afaik

#

@weak plinth it sets the component to the value passed in as 2nd param

weak plinth Nov 11, 2019, 5:24 PM

#

Does that also update the game sim? Like the transform?

graceful zephyr Nov 11, 2019, 5:24 PM

#

No this is just assignment of data

#

No logic

weak plinth Nov 11, 2019, 5:38 PM

#

I'm going to try and do this with a whole less ECS.

#

I think I'm beginning to understand the inputs to the state and rollback though 🤔

karmic void Nov 11, 2019, 5:41 PM

#

@graceful zephyr The solution will be only for ECS in coherence? Hope no :-(

graceful zephyr Nov 11, 2019, 5:45 PM

#

@karmic void I don't know their stance on ecs/not-ecs stuff

weak plinth Nov 11, 2019, 10:49 PM

#

I think I'm beginning to understand the inputs to the state and rollback though

I lied

#

This ECS is making it so much harder for me to understand

#

Also the idea that 1 map/scene = 1 server in that example. At least, I think it is

weak plinth Nov 11, 2019, 11:53 PM

#

@jade glacier So uhm...

#

My project is kindof messy atm. And I'm not sure if anything about the current tick system is correct

#

But that aside....
I'm checking for player inputs at every frame, buffering them, and applying them immediately (this is for single player/the server player)

#

Am I heading the correct way here?

#

I have 1 "central" object in the scene that updates the GameManager (where I guess eventually a lot of the systems will be, for now there's only the NetworkManager)

jade glacier Nov 12, 2019, 12:01 AM

#

Applying them on the next tick is normal for this yeah

#

if that is what you mean by immediately

#

not like in Update() immediately... that is too immediate

#

@weak plinth

weak plinth Nov 12, 2019, 12:03 AM

#

Uhm, I do like... really immediate now 😂

jade glacier Nov 12, 2019, 12:03 AM

#

yeah,that is not a simulation then really

weak plinth Nov 12, 2019, 12:03 AM

#

Why would I need to wait a tick?

jade glacier Nov 12, 2019, 12:03 AM

#

You need to apply inputs to your simulation

#

and your simulation runs at a fixed tick

#

You are collecting inputs in Update() I assume, which is totally frame dependent

weak plinth Nov 12, 2019, 12:04 AM

#

I've took some inspiration from the FPS sample (let's call it inspiration...) for the timings

jade glacier Nov 12, 2019, 12:04 AM

#

If you control your simulation firing (not using FixedUpdate) - you can collect inputs and then run the sim if your tick engine says a tick is due

weak plinth Nov 12, 2019, 12:04 AM

#

So I don't currently know exactly what's going on

jade glacier Nov 12, 2019, 12:05 AM

#

Not sure how they simulate, if its based on the fixed, or if they call Simulate themselves

weak plinth Nov 12, 2019, 12:05 AM

#

https://pastebin.com/eU77uiPX

#

I saw somewhere that they call their own Update based on... something

#

I can't find it atm

#

// This is called at the actual client frame rate, so may be faster or slower than tickrate.

#

It says this in the source

#

At the Update

#

But they do some shenanigans with ticks

#

That again, I don't fully understand yet

jade glacier Nov 12, 2019, 12:07 AM

#

They likely are running their own fixed tick timer or something, and fire simulate manually

#

I haven't looked at FPS, so I can't speak to it

weak plinth Nov 12, 2019, 12:08 AM

#

They have a lot of ECS stuff in there, which I completely fail to understand

jade glacier Nov 12, 2019, 12:08 AM

#

They might apply the mouselook immediately in Update() just for smoothness and quick feel

weak plinth Nov 12, 2019, 12:08 AM

#

So I'm doing my best to interprete it for my use case

jade glacier Nov 12, 2019, 12:08 AM

#

But still actually sample it later on the tick for the simulation

weak plinth Nov 12, 2019, 12:08 AM

#

I don't follow?

#

What's the difference between applying and sampling?

jade glacier Nov 12, 2019, 12:09 AM

#

The scene as you see it is NOT the simulation

weak plinth Nov 12, 2019, 12:09 AM

#

Uh... ok

jade glacier Nov 12, 2019, 12:09 AM

#

that is the interpolation/extrapolation that is totally update rate based

#

PhysX is a simulation

#

as was saying to someone else earlier, if you check rb.postion and rb.transform.position in Update... they will not match

weak plinth Nov 12, 2019, 12:10 AM

#

Don't I apply stuff to the scene, and pull the states from there after the tick?

jade glacier Nov 12, 2019, 12:10 AM

#

States typically are all virtual

#

like physX knows what the last tick results were, and applies inputs to that and produces a new tick, the results of which you don't actually see directly in the scene (unless you turn off interpolation)

weak plinth Nov 12, 2019, 12:11 AM

#

Let's forget physX for a minute to keep it a little easier 😂

jade glacier Nov 12, 2019, 12:11 AM

#

PhysX knows the last two "states" of the physics sim, and what you see translated in the scene are those results interpolated or extrapolated

#

I am using physX because it does what you need to do

#

The state and input buffers are virtual ticks... totally abstracted from the frame updates

weak plinth Nov 12, 2019, 12:12 AM

#

But how does one do this in Unity?

jade glacier Nov 12, 2019, 12:12 AM

#

By only using your states in your simulation

#

Rendering stuff to the scene (moving your objects in Update) you do by interpolating or extrapolating the resulting states

weak plinth Nov 12, 2019, 12:13 AM

#

How do you do this locally?

jade glacier Nov 12, 2019, 12:13 AM

#

Which part?

#

the states are just the data results of the simulation

weak plinth Nov 12, 2019, 12:14 AM

#

Everything?
I thought you said input + sim = new state

jade glacier Nov 12, 2019, 12:14 AM

#

State[1] player is at 0,0,0 + Input W = State[2] player is at 0,0,1

#

if state one fired at .02 seconds and state two fired at .04 seconds... and it is now Time.time = .05 ......

#

player will RENDER at 0,0, 0.5f

#

The player in the scene likely will never be at 0,0,0 or 0,0,1

#

Those are the states from the simulation

#

Time.fixedTime vs Time.time

#

I'm not sure how much time you have spent doing like the normal Unity stuff, but a healthy understanding of how FixedUpdate() fires is pretty critical to getting this stuff right

#

OR... not using it at all and running your own simulation timer

#

But to do that, you have to understand fixed time, because you will be rewriting it yourself

weak plinth Nov 12, 2019, 12:20 AM

#

I think I have to reread this tomorrow with a fresh mind

#

I've been at it for like 12 hours today 😂

jade glacier Nov 12, 2019, 12:20 AM

#

definitely don't try this stuff tired

weak plinth Nov 12, 2019, 12:20 AM

#

As always, thanks for the info 🙂

jade glacier Nov 12, 2019, 12:23 AM

#

hopefully it eventually helps LOL

weak plinth Nov 12, 2019, 12:36 AM

#

        public void FixedUpdate()
        {
            if (Command.MoveMagnitude > 0)
            {
                Vector2 direction = Quaternion.Euler(0, 0, Command.MoveYaw) * Vector2.up;
                //TODO Move Rigidbody!
                Vector2 n = direction * Command.MoveMagnitude * Time.fixedDeltaTime;
                transform.position += new Vector3(-n.x, n.y, 0);
                //MyRigidBody.AddRelativeForce(direction * Command.MoveMagnitude * Time.fixedDeltaTime);

                Debug.Log(direction);
            }
        }

How bad is this ? 🙂

#

(At least I have my Palm-Tree player substitute moving via buffered inputs 😄 )

#

I'm guessing I should probably update this in some interval that comes from the network/game manager 🤔

jade glacier Nov 12, 2019, 1:11 AM

#

That technically counts as simulation looking at it

#

The main thing there is to not scatter code like that all over the place.

#

If you want it to exist in methods in components on and gameobjects rather than some master Simulation class, just be sure that you are able to call all of the methods in a pretty deterministic manner.

#

So when you get to resim, you can pretty much fire all of it off in a single call

#

scattered code in FixedUpdate is less than ideal for that - since you can't easily call a master FixedUdpate() call yourself that then calls all of them.

#

Which is were moving to an updatemanager really starts to make sense

weak plinth Nov 12, 2019, 5:47 PM

#

Yeah, I'm planning to call a self-made update function from the network manager probably

#

And include the "frameduration" is what the FPS sample uses

#

That's their "deltatime"

#

I thought about this yesterday, no idea why I didn't think of it at the time

solar garden Nov 12, 2019, 6:00 PM

#

You shouldn't look at that FPS sample @weak plinth there is way to much things to understand with the Client/Server architecture in it self, the sample was made when Unet was dead adding to that the complexity of trying to learn a foreign project that you never had any involvement in.. this is just not worth the time

weak plinth Nov 12, 2019, 6:01 PM

#

What are you talking about? The last commit was from 14th of march

solar garden Nov 12, 2019, 6:01 PM

#

So ?

weak plinth Nov 12, 2019, 6:01 PM

#

So what's even the relation to UNet

#

It's a well working networked project with interpolation and snapshot delta compression

solar garden Nov 12, 2019, 6:03 PM

#

I mean they are not using Unet but the new implementation

weak plinth Nov 12, 2019, 6:03 PM

#

Yes, and thank fuck for that

solar garden Nov 12, 2019, 6:03 PM

#

Yeah idk what is new tho

weak plinth Nov 12, 2019, 6:03 PM

#

The networking API is a very basic layer on UDP

#

I don't know what your objections to FPS Sample project are

#

But as far as I'm considered, and heard from people who have knowledge in this field

#

It's a good, working product that suits perfectly for getting to understand the type of networking implemented

solar garden Nov 12, 2019, 6:06 PM

#

I said that it is hard enough to understand all the components of the Client/Server architecture in it self adding to that trying to understand a project that you have never had any involvement in might me even more harder to be worth the time

weak plinth Nov 12, 2019, 6:07 PM

#

If you have a better source, feel welcome to mention it

solar garden Nov 12, 2019, 6:07 PM

#

i mean if you are happy with it good for you i didn't know you would be so defencive about it

#

basically the whole google and this https://github.com/MFatihMAR/Awesome-Game-Networking

GitHub

MFatihMAR/Awesome-Game-Networking

A Curated List of Game Network Programming Resources - MFatihMAR/Awesome-Game-Networking

weak plinth Nov 12, 2019, 6:07 PM

#

This project is already a very small one. It's basically a vertical slice of a client-server networked FPS game

solar garden Nov 12, 2019, 6:08 PM

#

Ok ok whatever

graceful zephyr Nov 12, 2019, 6:31 PM

#

@weak plinth @solar garden the fps sample is probably the best example a fully implemented client-server model with all the bells and whistles you're gonna find open in source code.

#

It's big? yes. Is it as big as real game? no even close.

#

It's in C#, so no need to try to go through C++/C code ur not familiar with (if you dont know those langs ofc)

#

The FPS sample is great, it really is.

jade glacier Nov 12, 2019, 6:37 PM

#

Has anyone tried playing the actual game? I can't run it on this laptop, but curious how it actually feels

graceful zephyr Nov 12, 2019, 6:37 PM

#

feels pretty good

solar garden Nov 12, 2019, 6:38 PM

#

Nope

jade glacier Nov 12, 2019, 6:40 PM

#

I wonder why they haven't chosen to take it all the way to F2P then and go the Unreal Engine route

graceful zephyr Nov 12, 2019, 6:40 PM

#

@jade glacier because its still just 5% of a full game

solar garden Nov 12, 2019, 6:41 PM

#

they did 95% of the work

jade glacier Nov 12, 2019, 6:41 PM

#

That last 5% can usually be 90% of the time spent though

#

I haven't seen its current state, so I have no concept of whats missing

weak plinth Nov 12, 2019, 6:42 PM

#

The FPS Sample?

jade glacier Nov 12, 2019, 6:42 PM

#

yeah

weak plinth Nov 12, 2019, 6:42 PM

#

Nothing is "missing". It's a fully playable game

#

It's just very limited

#

It's pretty much 1 map, 2 characters

solar garden Nov 12, 2019, 6:42 PM

#

its a mess

weak plinth Nov 12, 2019, 6:42 PM

#

2 weapons I think

jade glacier Nov 12, 2019, 6:43 PM

#

Adding weapons and player characters isn't super hard, but the game design sounds very Quake Arenaish, without any of the new BR qualities people are hot on.

#

Going from QAish to OWish is a major amount of work

weak plinth Nov 12, 2019, 6:44 PM

#

If you'd want to expend a game like this, you'd be looking at adding more maps, characters, weapons, unique game mechanics

graceful zephyr Nov 12, 2019, 6:47 PM

#

@solar garden if you think they did 95% of the work of turning that into a fully finished game, you've never actually finished a game with a proper studio/team

solar garden Nov 12, 2019, 6:47 PM

#

I've seen million dolars AAA's that were less pollished than that

graceful zephyr Nov 12, 2019, 6:47 PM

#

at best they did 50% of the gameplay code

solar garden Nov 12, 2019, 6:48 PM

#

once you have the networking in place its just a matter of coding your gameplay

graceful zephyr Nov 12, 2019, 6:49 PM

#

lol

#

so naive

#

first of all, the networking is not even close to 90%

#

of a game

#

anyway, im gonna watch strangeparts and chill

solar garden Nov 12, 2019, 6:51 PM

#

im saying its easier when you have made your netowrking with the tools needed after this its just like making a solo game with some caution on what you network and what you don't

#

yeah do that

graceful zephyr Nov 12, 2019, 6:51 PM

#

just... one thing

#

im saying its easier when you have made your netowrking with the tools needed after this its just like making a solo game with some caution on what you network and what you don't
How do you know this? Have you actually made and finished a networked game? Because the questions you've been asking here the past week or so seems to imply you have very little knowledge about networking

solar garden Nov 12, 2019, 6:53 PM

#

i didn't i am making one

#

im not claming anything i have made games before i know what is hard and whats not from my point of view

graceful zephyr Nov 12, 2019, 6:54 PM

#

That's fine, learning is great, but then please don't speak with such certainty about things you've not done.

#

The networking is maybe like 5% of a game

#

code-base wise

solar garden Nov 12, 2019, 6:55 PM

#

i'll be sure to add the little "in my humble opinion" next time sorry

#

It's crazy this contrast between the networking community and the solo community

jade glacier Nov 12, 2019, 6:59 PM

#

Networking is the wild west of Unity

solar garden Nov 12, 2019, 7:00 PM

#

Yeah you won't tell me that twice, only few will actually help you the rest is peoples being either full of themselves or very defensive on anything

#

i don't get that

graceful zephyr Nov 12, 2019, 7:01 PM

#

What did you get your feelings hurts because I told you that you are wrong? lol

solar garden Nov 12, 2019, 7:02 PM

#

i started a few months ago and in that time period i have been told "just learn to code" or "a solo game would suit you better"

#

No man

jade glacier Nov 12, 2019, 7:03 PM

#

I wouldnt attempt networking with unity without a game or two under your belt without networking for sure.

stray scroll Nov 12, 2019, 7:03 PM

#

Never heard anyone say that, but network stuff isn't just doing a hello world of unity.

solar garden Nov 12, 2019, 7:04 PM

#

i just advised to Complex to learn networking outside the FPS sample because it is a bit comfusing and he got defensive

graceful zephyr Nov 12, 2019, 7:04 PM

#

the fps sample is not confusing, it's a fully working 'game'. That's how they look.

#

There's tons of little domain specific fuckery all over the place

solar garden Nov 12, 2019, 7:05 PM

#

i told that for a networking game the network is 95% of the game and you straight up told me that i was naive dude

graceful zephyr Nov 12, 2019, 7:05 PM

#

Yes you are

#

If you think its 95% of a game

#

It's not even 5% of a finished 'full' game

solar garden Nov 12, 2019, 7:06 PM

#

just load CSS and just spot what is not networking

graceful zephyr Nov 12, 2019, 7:06 PM

#

huh?

#

you mean start CS:S as a game?

#

you can just look at the source code, it's HUGE, the actual networking part is probably something like 2-3% of the code base

solar garden Nov 12, 2019, 7:07 PM

#

i mean load CS:S and spot what is not networking based

stray scroll Nov 12, 2019, 7:07 PM

#

I wouldn't deep dive into FPS sample as entry point of learning how to do networking in games. But I think it's a good source if you want to learn low level stuff of how to do things: )

graceful zephyr Nov 12, 2019, 7:07 PM

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@solar garden dude you have no idea what you are talking about, really

solar garden Nov 12, 2019, 7:08 PM

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Ok whatever you must be right then

#

im not defensive about that

stray scroll Nov 12, 2019, 7:12 PM

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It's also weird to talk about how many % of a game is what and whatnot? Also depends if you're building the network engine from scratch by yourself, what your polish standards are etc x)

solar garden Nov 12, 2019, 7:14 PM

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Idk, i have taken CS:S as an example because its the closest of what the FPS sample is and its basically just networking logic with movement script, game logic and shooting logic

weak plinth Nov 12, 2019, 7:15 PM

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@solar garden fholm is one of the people in this channel, together with Erick and Emotitron that helped me getting into networking

solar garden Nov 12, 2019, 7:15 PM

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Me too man im not trying to step on your Net familly bro

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you speak like i said that everyone i a fraud 😄

stray scroll Nov 12, 2019, 7:18 PM

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We all a big net family 👪 ❤

solar garden Nov 12, 2019, 7:18 PM

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im just arguing that networking in a multiplayer is not only the half of the game

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then im the cousin that no one likes at the dinner party 😄

jade glacier Nov 12, 2019, 7:20 PM

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Dunno about any of this. I just answers questions as best I can with best practices. There are groups that have different philosophies. Like the Mirror channel is far less concerned with good practices, and focus more on "just getting something working" - but any of the hardcore net guys are going to indicate just how hard doing this stuff correctly is... to not lead anyone down a bad path.

graceful zephyr Nov 12, 2019, 7:21 PM

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@jade glacier lol always gotta jab at Mirror

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¯_(ツ)_/¯

jade glacier Nov 12, 2019, 7:21 PM

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Always 😛

solar garden Nov 12, 2019, 7:21 PM

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lmao 😄

jade glacier Nov 12, 2019, 7:21 PM

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Though they have a place in the convo

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because some people ARE just looking for that first layer of just syncing some stuff and being happy there

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Who don't want to hear all of this talk about simulations and determinism and such

graceful zephyr Nov 12, 2019, 7:22 PM

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@solar garden you can take my word for it or you can not, i really don't care, I argued way more than I should've about this, fuck it.

solar garden Nov 12, 2019, 7:22 PM

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gee ok...

jade glacier Nov 12, 2019, 7:22 PM

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These channels are frustrating, because on one hand you want to help

#

on the other hand... you are fighting against a tide of people giving very bad advice, or refusing to take good advice

#

guys like fholm don't gain anything from participating here, his products sell to large studios - not to entry level devs. So I get the frustration of trying to help here.

solar garden Nov 12, 2019, 7:24 PM

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I understand that but i never bash peoples of how bad they are

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He could have told me this too :/

jade glacier Nov 12, 2019, 7:25 PM

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I have no idea what the debate here even is actually... I just look in now and then and see something other than best practices being discussed... oh well

solar garden Nov 12, 2019, 7:26 PM

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"Hey i dont want to be all pretencious here but i have worked in companies, i know what networking is and what you are saying is wrong"

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there

#

no biggy

jade glacier Nov 12, 2019, 7:26 PM

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Is it bashed though? This is a programming channel... programmers are not trying to win elections. He was just straight up saying you were wrong, because he knows what is right in this area.

solar garden Nov 12, 2019, 7:27 PM

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not "YOU KNOW NOTHING SCRUB" kind of speach

jade glacier Nov 12, 2019, 7:27 PM

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I get that from him when I say something dumb as well, and I give it to others.

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If someone in programming says something wrong, they will hear about it fast.

graceful zephyr Nov 12, 2019, 7:27 PM

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@solar garden you realize how annoyed people would be if i prefaced everything with "UH DUDE I ACTUALLY BUILD TECH FOR BIG STUDIOS"

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lol

solar garden Nov 12, 2019, 7:28 PM

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idk seams legit to me :/

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but anyway if 2 pros are telling me im wrong then its safe to say that i should be wrong 😄

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Im sorry @graceful zephyr

graceful zephyr Nov 12, 2019, 7:30 PM

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no worries, you dont need to apologise for not agreeing with me lol

solar garden Nov 12, 2019, 7:31 PM

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Its more for the whole commotion thing lol

weak plinth Nov 12, 2019, 10:14 PM

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@jade glacier Most of the code from the FPS sample originates from a Game.cs Update function (monobehaviour)

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How does this work with physics? Since everywhere online suggests using FixedUpdate

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frameTime = (double)m_Clock.ElapsedTicks / m_StopwatchFrequency; It uses this as a "frameTime" calculated every Update call 🤔

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m_Clock is just a Stopwatch

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float frameDuration = m_lastFrameTime != 0 ? (float)(Game.frameTime - m_lastFrameTime) : 0;

Using this as a deltatime 🤔

jade glacier Nov 12, 2019, 10:19 PM

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At a glance, that would be the fixed tick

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That stuff might just be to make a double buffered Delta or something

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I really know squat about fps sample

weak plinth Nov 12, 2019, 10:25 PM

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I really know squat about fps sample
That goes for both of us 😄

stray scroll Nov 12, 2019, 10:29 PM

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@weak plinth what file is your second snippet from?

weak plinth Nov 12, 2019, 10:29 PM

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You mean what class or?

stray scroll Nov 12, 2019, 10:30 PM

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'float frameDuration = m_lastFrameTime != 0 ? (float)(Game.frameTime - m_lastFrameTime) : 0;'

weak plinth Nov 12, 2019, 10:30 PM

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They are both from the FPSSample

stray scroll Nov 12, 2019, 10:30 PM

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yeah, but what script file

graceful zephyr Nov 12, 2019, 10:30 PM

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frameTime = (double)m_Clock.ElapsedTicks / m_StopwatchFrequency; <- delta time in seconds (as a double)

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float frameDuration = m_lastFrameTime != 0 ? (float)(Game.frameTime - m_lastFrameTime) : 0; <- how long the last frame took to execute, i.e. the simulation speed

weak plinth Nov 12, 2019, 10:31 PM

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ClientGameLoop or ThinClientGameLoop

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@graceful zephyr Why do they do it like this?

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Instead of using Time.Delta?

graceful zephyr Nov 12, 2019, 10:32 PM

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because its more accurate and gives more control

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the step the physics by hand

weak plinth Nov 12, 2019, 10:32 PM

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🤔 So I should use these timings for all networked objects?

graceful zephyr Nov 12, 2019, 10:32 PM

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we do the same in quantum

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not exact same, but similar

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with stopwatches, etc.

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manual time, not relying on unitys delta

weak plinth Nov 12, 2019, 10:33 PM

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I mean, it would be preferable if I didn't have to make the entire game ECS-like

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They also use a statemachine for the game state. It's pretty simple but ingenious 🤔

stray scroll Nov 12, 2019, 10:40 PM

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Are there any strong pros for using the high precision timers compared to unity deltas? Only thing I remember was that they talked about about targetFramerate drifting, hence why they used the high precision timer to nudge it back and forth.

tame ivy Nov 12, 2019, 10:46 PM

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...is it possible to retrofit online play into a game? I didn't originally envision online play in my game, but now I'm considering it.

graceful zephyr Nov 12, 2019, 10:46 PM

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hard af

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@tame ivy

tame ivy Nov 12, 2019, 10:47 PM

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@graceful zephyr Can you elaborate?

graceful zephyr Nov 12, 2019, 10:47 PM

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it's hard as fuck,

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to do that

tame ivy Nov 12, 2019, 10:47 PM

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...yes. I can tell that's what you meant. But why?

graceful zephyr Nov 12, 2019, 10:47 PM

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because you built a game for singleplayer

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and now want it to be multiplayer

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a lot of stuff is not going to work properly in MP, with lag, jitter, other clients, etc

#

so a lot of re-writing is needed usually

tame ivy Nov 12, 2019, 10:51 PM

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Got any reading I can refer to?

jade glacier Nov 12, 2019, 10:53 PM

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Make some small test mp tutorials and such before even thinking about doing anything for real.

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If you value your time and happiness

weak plinth Nov 12, 2019, 11:04 PM

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Making a game from scratch with multiplayer in mind is difficult enough

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I wouldn't task my worst enemy having to sift through an existing codebase making these things multiplayer

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Considering all this tickrate, interpolation,prediction,rollback stuff

tame ivy Nov 12, 2019, 11:07 PM

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Hm...what if I can take advantage of my game's particular mechanics?

weak plinth Nov 12, 2019, 11:07 PM

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Advantage?

tame ivy Nov 12, 2019, 11:08 PM

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For example, I have a match-3 puzzle game. Both players have their own grid; the player do not directly interact as they would in a fighting game. When a player does certain things, the other player's grid will be filled with hazards or otherwise changed. But not immediately; whenever it's convenient for these state changes to apply

#

(For a game-specific notion of "whenever it's convenient")

weak plinth Nov 12, 2019, 11:10 PM

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If you have a puzzle game, especially a slow paced one

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Like a board game

tame ivy Nov 12, 2019, 11:10 PM

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It's not slow-paced but the players each have their own "stages" that don't directly interact

weak plinth Nov 12, 2019, 11:10 PM

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Tbh, you can slap some TCP variant on there and just sync everything

tame ivy Nov 12, 2019, 11:10 PM

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It's this https://jessetg.itch.io/chromavaders

itch.io

Chromavaders by Jesse Talavera-Greenberg

80's-styled arcade shooter and puzzle game.

weak plinth Nov 12, 2019, 11:10 PM

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It's not efficient at all, but it gets the job done as easily as possible for your case

#

Jesus that volume

tame ivy Nov 12, 2019, 11:11 PM

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Sorry. It's on my to-do list

weak plinth Nov 12, 2019, 11:11 PM

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Give people a sound warning 😂

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So

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Do players see each other at all?

tame ivy Nov 12, 2019, 11:12 PM

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Yes, they see each other.

weak plinth Nov 12, 2019, 11:12 PM

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Oh.. Well seeing your game

#

That makes things more dificult

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I don't know... I'm by no means an expert

#

I'm figuring out how to do it from scratch.

tame ivy Nov 12, 2019, 11:21 PM

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Thank you anyway.

weak plinth Nov 13, 2019, 12:26 AM

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Ok, I think I have player/camera movement done correctly locally....

#

@jade glacier http://www.codersblock.org/blog/client-side-prediction-in-unity-2018
This might be a nice source for me. But why does this use Physics.Simulate?

#

Or better... Why does FPS sample not use Physics.Simulate?

jade glacier Nov 13, 2019, 12:50 AM

#

Depends if PhysX is part of your simulation

#

calling Physics.Simulate() yourself makes it very easy to create a PostPhysX callback, which is missing from Unity

#

Without it you have to make your own that fires sometimes in Update, when the time is already off the tick.

#

@weak plinth

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PostPhysX would be the place you would capture the physics results as a state. With future DOTS that will be a bit easier, as I think you will be able to just store the stateless results from the physics sims.

tame ivy Nov 13, 2019, 1:52 AM

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@jade glacier I use it only to detect collisions; my game does not actually have physical behavior.

#

The 2D physics engine is still PhysX, right?

graceful zephyr Nov 13, 2019, 6:20 AM

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@JesseTG#4752 no, that's always been Box2D

weak plinth Nov 13, 2019, 9:13 AM

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Do I need to call it as well without PhysX?

#

I think in the FPS sample they use collision systems etc in ECS for this

graceful zephyr Nov 13, 2019, 10:04 AM

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@weak plinth fps sample uses physx

dapper night Nov 13, 2019, 12:10 PM

#

hello everyone,
i would like to test my networking code so i ported my headless instance to the server (Ubuntu 19.10),
im trying to connect but the client cant reach the server at the specified Port (9000) by calling the command "sudo lsof -i -P -n | grep LISTEN" the specified port do not appear within the list, but by calling this one "sudo lsof -i:9000" i get this:
COMMAND PID USER FD TYPE DEVICE SIZE/OFF NODE NAME
ServerBui 24342 root 6u IPv6 7764598 0t0 UDP localhost:9000
which seems for me that the headless instance is listening.
(i'm not really comfortable with linux stuff)
did anyone had this issue before ?

gleaming prawn Nov 13, 2019, 1:08 PM

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Isn't the headless instance in this case bound to the localhost loopback interface @dapper night ?

#

I think you need to force it to bind to the local valid IP address itself (it depends on how Unity does these socket bindings)

dapper night Nov 13, 2019, 1:09 PM

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i just fixed it, the problem was the server il listening to 127.0.0.1

gleaming prawn Nov 13, 2019, 1:09 PM

#

yes

#

that's what I thought

dapper night Nov 13, 2019, 1:09 PM

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yep that was problem 😉

gleaming prawn Nov 13, 2019, 1:09 PM

#

Cool

dapper night Nov 13, 2019, 1:09 PM

#

thanks anyway !!

gleaming prawn Nov 13, 2019, 1:12 PM

#

BTW, don't run server as root!

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🙂

dapper night Nov 13, 2019, 2:26 PM

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sorry i didn't get what you mean ?

gleaming prawn Nov 13, 2019, 2:27 PM

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ServerBui 24342 root 6u IPv6 7764598 0t0 UDP localhost:9000
You are running the headless process as root (user ID)... This is super dangerous. If there are vulnerabilities on your server binary/unity, people can get root access to this machine by exploting them remotely

#

Then havoc.... your VM is compromised, etc...

#

It's a general rule, don't run these things as root, sandbox them as much as possible (also with these sandbox deployment methods, etc)

#

I hate this, glad we have another team dealing with these details...:)

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lol

dapper night Nov 13, 2019, 2:32 PM

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XD thanks you very much i didnt know that !!

#

for the moment im using the VM just for testing our Headless instances are running in containers within Kubernutes VMs

gleaming prawn Nov 13, 2019, 2:43 PM

#

yep, try to search for resources on that topic. Not expert on that, but IMHO it's worth doing some homework on it.

dapper night Nov 13, 2019, 3:07 PM

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ill Thank you very much!

weak plinth Nov 13, 2019, 5:48 PM

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@graceful zephyr @jade glacier
https://support.unity3d.com/hc/en-us/articles/360015178512-Determinism-with-2D-Physics
So, what now...?

jade glacier Nov 13, 2019, 5:48 PM

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You are trying to be deterministic?

#

Then use a diff physics engine 😛

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Or don't go for full determinism

weak plinth Nov 13, 2019, 5:49 PM

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The fps sample is deterministic as well though

#

There's Physics2D Simulate. Perhaps I need to use that...

solar garden Nov 13, 2019, 5:51 PM

#

Or wait for Havok

weak plinth Nov 13, 2019, 5:52 PM

#

There's no waiting (espacially waiting for anything Unity...) when you're making a product

solar garden Nov 13, 2019, 5:53 PM

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is it a personnal project or is it commercial ?

weak plinth Nov 13, 2019, 5:54 PM

#

If you mean by commercial that me or anyone working on the product has any commercial background, no

#

And if personal means, Some hobby project that will probably be shelved, neither

solar garden Nov 13, 2019, 5:54 PM

#

I didn't assumed anything

weak plinth Nov 13, 2019, 5:55 PM

#

I didn't say you assumed. I answered your question. maybe

#

(Notice the if in my answers)

solar garden Nov 13, 2019, 5:55 PM

#

trying to be deterministic with physics is way to painfull anyway

#

there is to much variables playing here

#

in my opinion

weak plinth Nov 13, 2019, 5:57 PM

#

There's plenty of products that achieve this.

#

Question is, is it something required for my product

graceful zephyr Nov 13, 2019, 6:01 PM

#

@weak plinth the fps sample is not deterministic

#

havok is not deterministic

#

unity physx is not deterministic

#

or rather, let me clarify

#

none of the physics options in unity, atm, is cross platform deterministic

#

SOME of them, have the ability to be deterministic on the same machine, i.e. so you can repeat something in sequence on the exact same hardware.

#

but not between different hardware, between server/client/etc.

#

@solar garden you can always do what we did, we wrote our own fully deterministic 2.5D and 3D physics engines.

solar garden Nov 13, 2019, 6:02 PM

#

sweet

#

must be hard

jade glacier Nov 13, 2019, 6:03 PM

#

When syncing states you still look for determinism where you can find it, because anything deterministic is always a bonus you can take advantage of

#

Like with PhysX the more you can keep the results of sims in agreement the less resimulating needs to be done, which is good.

#

And there are things you can do to make that happen, like trying to keep the server and client states in agreement, or doing things like quantizing your values to the lossy values being networked. But it is a far cry from actual determinism

weak plinth Nov 13, 2019, 6:20 PM

#

🤔 I think I'm mixing terminology again

#

Yes I am. I mean prediction...

#

Not determinism...

jade glacier Nov 13, 2019, 6:49 PM

#

Its easy to do

solar garden Nov 13, 2019, 7:53 PM

#

im still struggling with this idk if you have to make an actual transform separated from the player to create the prediction target or if you can do without with some vector addition

#

but as you have to run your movement script i don't think its posible without an actual transform to apply the movement to

gleaming prawn Nov 13, 2019, 8:31 PM

#

@weak plinth you said this: There's plenty of products that achieve this.
I'm not sure there are plenty of (commertially available) determnistic engines out there, specially cross platform...

#

The full havok is single-platform deterministic, but not stateless (full state is too big with cached data to be rollback-able).

#

There might be some...

weak plinth Nov 13, 2019, 8:32 PM

#

Yeah, I was mistaking determinism with prediction 😓

gleaming prawn Nov 13, 2019, 8:33 PM

#

Even for prediction, I'd count in one hand, IF

#

Source engine, UE4, FPS sample, Photon Bolt... yeah, probably a few more I just don't know

#

but determinism... hmmm... not really many (I actually don't know any apart from what we have internally)

#

In the past I made 2 other open source physics engines deterministic (but not with super high performance or small enoug state for practical rollbacks).

#

You can make probably any open source physics deterministic by:

replacing floats by fixed points (careful with accuracy) - or carefully playing with compiler flags to achieve single-platform float determinism;
making sure you have stable sorting, and deterministic randoms (if using any in the solver);
making sure any multi-threaded parts are "well behaved" (this can be tricky in some designs);

#

Now, making this stateless (super light weight state + compute full tick without cached data) to be practical for rollbacks... That's why we wrote ours...

weak plinth Nov 13, 2019, 9:36 PM

#

You're making it sound quite impossible to make a multiplayer game with Unity

jade glacier Nov 13, 2019, 9:39 PM

#

If you are trying to make a technical marvel on your first attempt of course.

#

Don't try to make a technical marvel the first go

weak plinth Nov 13, 2019, 9:49 PM

#

I'm not trying to make a technical marvel

#

I just want a multiplayer game with the same features something like FPS sample uses. Or better yet, some of the features

#

Like predict/rollback

jade glacier Nov 13, 2019, 9:55 PM

#

You can definitely pull that off just with OOP

#

The DOTS stuff only really starts to shine if your states are getting pretty hefty, but for midsized games some basic resimulation and such isn't all that outlandish

weak plinth Nov 13, 2019, 10:09 PM

#

I'm trying to stay away from DOTS as well

#

I literally just want to start out with something predict/.rollback server auth

#

I mean. I'm not trying to make THE perfect multiplayer game by all means

#

But I do want a product that feels nice to play over network

#

And to at least get a sense of networked architecture

gleaming prawn Nov 13, 2019, 10:24 PM

#

I just said there are a FEW (publicly available) libraries that implement that (non deterministic client side prediction).

#

And they are all super easy to use... This is very far from stating it as impossible... More like: just go for it...:)

#

You can also do it (some of these are even provided with sources, and considering client side prediction dates back to quake arena... learning material is everywhere).

#

What I said is more rare was:

"stateless" determinsitic predict/rollback (which is something totally different than client side non determinstic prediction).
I stated I do not know of an off-the-shelf publicly available determinsitic predict/rollbackable Physics engine... We have our own for that reason.. BUt I might be wrong, of course (I just contested when you said that there were many - But I realized later that you were trying to describe client prediction, not rollback determinism),

#

IMHO it's just that a lot of people confuse:

deterministic predict/rollback (Quantum, GGPO, etc);
with
client side prediction on state-transfer/snapshot interpolation client-server solutions (that can benefit from SOME quasi-determinism).

weak plinth Nov 13, 2019, 10:48 PM

#

I'm working on the latter

#

Where the client predicts the next states based on the given inputs

#

And rolls back when server sends different results

#

And yes, I was definitely mixing up the terminology. That happens when you want to talk about something you don't quite understand yet 🙂

jade glacier Nov 14, 2019, 12:12 AM

#

If I am reading that right, you are doing snapshots combined with extrapolation, rather than snapshot interpolation, which is totally a reasonable variant.

weak plinth Nov 14, 2019, 6:06 PM

#

There's interpolation as well on the client? 🤔

#

Interpolation between the current and next state (received from the server)

graceful zephyr Nov 14, 2019, 6:07 PM

#

Yes theres interpolation on the client also

jade wharf Nov 14, 2019, 11:05 PM

#

Not sure you would have that great an experience if it wasnt interpolated on client

jade wharf Nov 15, 2019, 12:08 AM

#

Would be choppy

ebon sun Nov 15, 2019, 12:46 AM

#

So now that UNET is deprecated, I'm trying to choose between mirror, mlapi, pun 2, what do you all recommend? the comparisons I see are quite outdated

jade glacier Nov 15, 2019, 1:01 AM

#

If you are just getting started it really won't matter that much.

#

The main choice you will want to make is the architecture of the thing you are making, and if it needs Server/Client or if Relay/P2P makes more sense. But even that I wouldn't mess with until you do a tutorial for a couple of those.

ebon sun Nov 15, 2019, 1:09 AM

#

I started with Mirror because rucksack needed it, but I'm throwing away rucksack and decided I should re-evaluate mirror. I'm not 100% happy with it (it's custom editor code breaks odin, it's based on UNET which was deprecated, etc) but am not building anything insane either.

#

the mlapi project has a blog post detailing a lot of problems with mirror but considering the source, I wanted to look for other opinions

jade glacier Nov 15, 2019, 1:13 AM

#

MLAPI doesn't have the weavering, but it does have less baggage that came over from UNET, so its kind of a tossup

#

however they are similar enough, that really you can refactor back and forth later without that much pain

#

The basic architecture of them are similar

#

PUN2 is a different animal, since its pure relay, so it being a candidate depends on the game type really.

#

The main upside of PUN2 is there are no server/hosting consideration involved in hosting. How you dev is how it plays. The relay acts as a very lightweight server.

gray pond Nov 15, 2019, 3:34 AM

#

@ebon sun That blog post is a biased hit piece and should not be trusted. I'll help you in Mirror's Discord, or you can go another way, that's up to you. I'm sorry there's a conflict with Odin, but that's on them. We've been open to working with them, as you know.

ebon sun Nov 15, 2019, 3:36 AM

#

thanks, you've been helpful previously so I don't doubt it. I'm toying with mlapi now to get some idea of it but I am not impressed - zero examples, the wiki is bare bones, no asset supports this, etc. it may be a good product but it looks like a turd to me

gray pond Nov 15, 2019, 3:38 AM

#

We stuck with Unet's model because it's approachable by people migrating from UNet, but we've gone a very long way improving it.

ebon sun Nov 15, 2019, 3:38 AM

#

are any of those thread/performance issues (from the blog post) accurate or just twisted to serve the narrative

gray pond Nov 15, 2019, 3:38 AM

#

twisted

#

I'll admit we still have a couple components that are being replaced that may not be perfectly optimized, but for the most part we've got most of the garbage out.

#

NetTransform and NetAnimator, specifically

#

we're aware of them and working on it.

ebon sun Nov 15, 2019, 3:42 AM

#

perf isn't a huge concern for me, my game will really only support small groups, but given I had to toss rucksack I figured this would be an ideal time to make sure I'm happy with my networking choice

gray pond Nov 15, 2019, 3:42 AM

#

One of our transports runs into Unity's 1200 thread limit at 600 clients, but we have others that don't suffer that.

ebon sun Nov 15, 2019, 3:42 AM

#

ya I won't get anywhere near that

gray pond Nov 15, 2019, 3:42 AM

#

ok then never mind - you won't hit those limits...most people won't.

#

Anyway - do your due diligence, perfectly understandable. You know where to find us 🙂

ebon sun Nov 15, 2019, 3:44 AM

#

thanks

#

you don't have a list of known assets with mirror support do you

gray pond Nov 15, 2019, 3:44 AM

#

I do... https://mirror-networking.com/docs/General/Integrations/index.html

#

Beyond those, if it was made to work with UNet already, we can usually help them make a Mirror version pretty easily.

#

off to bed, but poke me in the other if I can help further 🙂

ebon sun Nov 15, 2019, 4:02 AM

#

thanks, I'm going to stick with mirror, there's just more support overall, better docs, better discord, wider asset support, etc. whatever mlapi offers isn't worth losing all that

jade glacier Nov 15, 2019, 1:25 PM

#

Mirror will definitely have the most active support

vocal sigil Nov 15, 2019, 3:42 PM

#

Hi. I have a problem with cache server. I installed it through Node.js on PC1 with correct result. After that i tried to connect PC1 with PC2 by putting my PC1 local IP address in Unity cache server window. On PC2 I have a message "connection was successful" but on PC1 node.js command prompt I have this result. What Am I doing wrong? Is there any better documentation with examples than Unity official?
Please help, I'm stuck :/

📎 unknown.png

lost scaffold Nov 15, 2019, 6:58 PM

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I'm setting up a unity game which is going to be played on twitch, will likely have 4000-8000 people watching and using chat, I'm trying to set up a "twitch plays" type mechanic. Is there any good way to stress test my set up? or any advice you guys would have?

weak plinth Nov 15, 2019, 7:02 PM

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You can try to use a second system and spam the socket that's receiving the twitch stuff

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Meaning, just use fake chat messages in large volume with an automated system

lost scaffold Nov 15, 2019, 7:04 PM

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u reckon twitch are going to call me a naughty boy for flooding a chat?

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or is that probably okay?

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oh wait

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fake chat system.. got you

weak plinth Nov 15, 2019, 7:27 PM

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Yes, not the actual Twitch chat system.

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I mean, you can go test that, but that's out of your hands anyway...

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At the entry point of your twitch chat messages, enter a whole bunch of fake messages in there

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From a different application

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So you're not including the overhead of this fake message program in your profiling

stray scroll Nov 15, 2019, 8:21 PM

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Anyone know how one would go about creating the effects of multiple "channels" of a world, frequently seen in MMOs I guess?

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If anyone got any vid of the subject, that would be extra cool 😎

weak plinth Nov 15, 2019, 8:25 PM

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What do you do when the size of the state(snapshot) exceeds the MTU?

jade glacier Nov 15, 2019, 8:28 PM

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Make a new packet 🙂

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or start in with your priority engine

weak plinth Nov 15, 2019, 8:29 PM

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Oh no. More scary words 😦

stray scroll Nov 15, 2019, 8:31 PM

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I guess I'm more asking for the effect that one have with seamless transition between servers then, I guess simply not unloading the static world and your character would work. But would the two servers talk to each other directly? Or would there be some orchestrator that would fix that... hmm 🤔

solar garden Nov 15, 2019, 8:38 PM

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@jade glacier Some days back you mentionned a multi scene setup to calculate client prediction right ?

jade glacier Nov 15, 2019, 8:38 PM

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with the new physX yeah, you can do it

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But it does involve some front work

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basically making a system that replicates the objects of interests into that scene, but with greatly simplified versions of them

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@weak plinth Its basically a way of sorting what parts of the state need to send more urgently, but still ensure that everything eventually gets through

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I've never made one, so I have very little advice to give on the topic

solar garden Nov 15, 2019, 8:41 PM

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Why is it usefull to have multiple scenes to do that ?

jade glacier Nov 15, 2019, 8:45 PM

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So you can leave your primary scene in tact mainly.. really comes down to how much furniture needs moving to do your resim

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The issue with Unity is the state simulation with PhsyX IS the same scenes that the player's game... with all of its interpolations and such

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I would stick with that though until you have reason to run resims in a separate sim

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without being stateless and having efficient memory copies like you get with ECS, you really want to have a reason to do it before just doing it.

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I've made use of it on the past for the server, since when the server would rewind for testing shots you didn't want to have to also move everything back

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For client resims it makes less sense, since the furniture all needs to get moved anyway

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The main issue to fight with there is that you may be doing this mid Update() unless you are taking control of the Simulation() call yourself - which you should. Mid Update means there may be some PhysX interpolation/extrapolation that will get stomped on.

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So I recommend if this is your own game, immediately start down the pat of making your own update manager - and create your own PreSim, Simulation() and postSim callbacks

final depot Nov 15, 2019, 11:39 PM

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Does anyone here have a reference to how to use Photon matchmaking and using them as a simple relay?

weak plinth Nov 16, 2019, 12:20 AM

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Slowly going through the work being able to sync 2 players

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So much setting up to do at first before I can even test networking

jade glacier Nov 16, 2019, 12:58 AM

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I think some of the build in samples demonstrate that no? @final depot

final depot Nov 16, 2019, 1:00 AM

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Like is there a transport level communications layer for Photon

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I can't seem to find the actual code samples for that

jade glacier Nov 16, 2019, 2:29 AM

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If you use the pun2 demo scenes, you can see how those talk to and through the relay

ancient depot Nov 16, 2019, 3:05 PM

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How can I send a variable from the host to the client once the user is connected?

stray scroll Nov 16, 2019, 3:37 PM

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With what API?

ancient depot Nov 16, 2019, 3:38 PM

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I am using the unet

stray scroll Nov 16, 2019, 3:59 PM

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https://stackoverflow.com/questions/46110786/how-to-know-wether-the-client-and-server-are-connected-to-each-other-in-unity-ne some fast googling

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Then for sending I think there are a few ways, you can use SyncVars if the object is spawned, Network Messages, or RPCs.

solar tendon Nov 16, 2019, 4:55 PM

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Question:
Can I make a game in 2 separate projects, one being the server which houses all the game data and is always the predetermined “host” and another project which is client and gets the data from the server project?

ancient depot Nov 16, 2019, 5:02 PM

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@stray scroll My actual issue is how to send the value the players are spawned automatically by the network manager

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SyncVars are supposed to be used with a NetworkBehaviour script my main script is a NetworkManager one

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I forgot to mention that

stray scroll Nov 16, 2019, 5:30 PM

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@ancient depot So what is the issue then?

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@solar tendon Are you talking about streaming content from server to client? Or simply just have one project as server and one as client and share some resources/scripts between them?

solar tendon Nov 16, 2019, 5:35 PM

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Basically how I’d like to do it ideally is: one project which is server, that houses all the data, client sends commands via internet and the server reacts to those commands by using a switch to decider which action needs to be sent back to the client

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Interger* not internet but also over binternet

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Example:
Client sends server it’s ID and an int, server then using a switch look for that matching case to the int sent and then sends back information to the client appropriate for that int that was initially sent

solar tendon Nov 16, 2019, 5:56 PM

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@stray scroll sorry forgot@to tag

stray scroll Nov 16, 2019, 5:58 PM

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Uhm ok. Well, please define what you mean with "that houses all the data". The rest seems to be basic sending data back and forth?

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@solar tendon

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And if by that you simply ask if you can have two different projects with executables sending data back and forth, the answer is yes.

dapper night Nov 16, 2019, 6:21 PM

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hello guys,
i have a question about state sync im using UTC to sync Clients to Server, but the time received from server seems to be in the future instead of the past which is weird.
in server side im getting the DateTimeOffset.Now.ToUnixTimeMilliseconds() then delete the GameCreationTimeStamp (to send a uint instead of Long).
in client side while reading the message i do :
var messageAge = DateTimeOffset.Now.ToUnixTimeMilliseconds() - ( timestamp received +GameCreationTimeStamp )
the messageAge is always negative which really weird looks like my Server is leaving in the Future XD.
if anyone have an idea that will be awesome.
Thanks!

solar tendon Nov 16, 2019, 6:31 PM

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@stray scroll yes that’s exactly the jist of what I was asking, having 2 separate executables sending data to each other. “Houses all the data” in reference to data tables etc that shouldn’t be available on the client due to the ability to cheat super easily

graceful zephyr Nov 16, 2019, 7:09 PM

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@dapper night just use a stopwatch and count in seconds

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do not use datetime

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its inaccurate and weird

dapper night Nov 16, 2019, 7:26 PM

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sorry @graceful zephyr i didnt get what you mean, how can i sync client and Server using a Stopwatch ?

graceful zephyr Nov 16, 2019, 7:27 PM

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@dapper night i mean use System.Diagnostics.Stopwatch as the clock on both ends

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instead of DateTime.Now

dapper night Nov 16, 2019, 7:28 PM

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oh i got it, so the System.Diagnostics.Stopwatch should return the same value on both ends ?

graceful zephyr Nov 16, 2019, 7:28 PM

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no

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depends on when u start it

dapper night Nov 16, 2019, 7:28 PM

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yes but how can i sync the start time between both ends ?

stray scroll Nov 16, 2019, 7:34 PM

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You can "ping" client/server and measure round trip time and use as offset.

dapper night Nov 16, 2019, 7:47 PM

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this exactly what i was doing until they told me that the RTT i not procise and i should i use timestamp instead. XD

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also im reading message at the beggining of every frame (60/s) so a message can arrive at the end of a frame but will be processed at the beggining of the next one, so few ms will be lost if i rely ony on RTT

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only*

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@graceful zephyr ok but how can i be sure that it started exactly at the same ms on both ends ?

graceful zephyr Nov 16, 2019, 7:58 PM

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you cant

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its impossible

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as in, literally impossible to know that it started on the exact same ms

stray scroll Nov 16, 2019, 8:32 PM

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Someone can correct me on this, but this is what I've done the few times I've done low lvl net code, is to set it up to buffer the data/snapshot/input on both ends so you know you generally always have data. Which will ofc create some additional small delay between input and action, if not using any sort of prediction.

misty shale Nov 16, 2019, 9:49 PM

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Anyone building a game with DOTS and a RESTful web server? (E.g. for inventory storage). If so what kind of stack / APIs are you using?

graceful zephyr Nov 17, 2019, 7:01 AM

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@stray scroll that's a common technique yes

stray scroll Nov 17, 2019, 8:47 AM

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@misty shale From what I could read RESTful means I think I am? 😛 I'm new to web programming things. But I'm simply using the "UnityWebRequest" with POST to my server that uses php to talk to database. For game server that wants info, I use a system using EntityManager directly to add a managed class derived of "Component" holding the request and operation, then another system checking the operation and see if it's done and then read the reply.

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And I'm currently using WAMP when testing it out : )

graceful zephyr Nov 17, 2019, 11:15 AM

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@stray scroll RESTfull just means that it doesnt keep any state between queries, and everything needed is sent in the query and returned as the response, etc

tough oracle Nov 17, 2019, 12:16 PM

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Hello, could someone help me by suggesting me a network server that suits my future project?
I have been looking for many but I am not sure which one could adapt to the needs of my MMORPG project.
I am looking for a network server that can handle an indefinite number of players (minimum 500) fighting in real time, without delay, all in the same place.
I planned to start with Photon, but then I saw that it seemed useless for the project I planned, and researched others like SpatialIOS, Gamelift, Playfab, etc. And among all those who seemed more like me was Gamesparks and is also indie friendly, but I don't know if he is the one I need, what I would need would be a server that allows those battles without any delay, something like League of legend but with hundreds or such Once thousands of players at the same time. I hope I have explained myself my english is not perfect, well I am beginning to learn so what I need is to know where to start

graceful zephyr Nov 17, 2019, 12:33 PM

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@tough oracle I am looking for a network server that can handle an indefinite number of players (minimum 500) fighting in real time, without delay, all in the same place. with that sort of requirement you're gonna be building your own stuff, or use SpatialOS (assuming it can even handle it)

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@tough oracle Also for reference, the MMO Albion Online, uses Photon Server for it's backend networking - which i would think is pretty close to what you want

tough oracle Nov 17, 2019, 12:40 PM

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well, I really expected an answer like that, i test albion and its not what i want, well for now

graceful zephyr Nov 17, 2019, 12:40 PM

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What you are asking for is incredibly hard to build

tough oracle Nov 17, 2019, 12:40 PM

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im starting with some small project

graceful zephyr Nov 17, 2019, 12:40 PM

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a 500+ players real time battle is not a small project

tough oracle Nov 17, 2019, 12:41 PM

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o no im not starting with that project, like i say im starting to learn

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i jsut dont see a way to slowly get there

graceful zephyr Nov 17, 2019, 12:41 PM

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Because there isn't really a way for a hobbyist to finish something like that by themselves /w a very small taem

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it's too big and complex

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and too hard to build

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best bet is photon server or spatial os

tough oracle Nov 17, 2019, 12:42 PM

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yes i will start with spatial ios, thanks for the answer!

wild badge Nov 17, 2019, 2:26 PM

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Why the minimum of 500?

tough oracle Nov 17, 2019, 3:25 PM

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because less player dont work for what im thinking, or i can say to you

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i use to play a mmo named Ragnarok online , in that mmo there is a event called War of emperiun

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i want to do something like that, in that war you Guild and the guilds alliance fight to conquer castles

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i use to play with my guild 70+ players and two more guilds alliance so 170+ player fithing agains the guilds that want to stealh our catle so like 200+ maybe and the Solo people that only want to pvp

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i dont think that something like that will worth with less than 500 minimun

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i have to say, in that mmo you fighted with LAG XD BUT really good lag

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sorry if my english is too bad

graceful zephyr Nov 17, 2019, 3:32 PM

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so you want to build an mmo, as your first game, with no networking experience

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... gl hf

tough oracle Nov 17, 2019, 3:34 PM

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its not imposible

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btw i checked more info about spacialos because u say me and that is exactly what i need, thx for that

wild badge Nov 17, 2019, 3:58 PM

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Even with SpatialOS, 500 is a real stretch, especially realtime and all in the same place

tough oracle Nov 17, 2019, 3:59 PM

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i mean in the same map

wild badge Nov 17, 2019, 3:59 PM

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Most games that have a large player count in a smaller area, will do things like phasing, or slowing down time

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What would stop 500 players in the same map, from moving to the same area?

tough oracle Nov 17, 2019, 4:00 PM

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not leting entrances open in your castle xD

graceful zephyr Nov 17, 2019, 4:01 PM

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This is a pipedream

wild badge Nov 17, 2019, 4:01 PM

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I think you're missing the point here

graceful zephyr Nov 17, 2019, 4:01 PM

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You are not going to do this

tough oracle Nov 17, 2019, 4:01 PM

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i can try

graceful zephyr Nov 17, 2019, 4:01 PM

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No networking experience, first game

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Solo

wild badge Nov 17, 2019, 4:02 PM

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While I agree you should play around with networking and get a feel for it. Please don't aim so high as a start

tough oracle Nov 17, 2019, 4:02 PM

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like i say im not making that game right now

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im just looking a way to learn and get there slowly

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by making smalls projects first