@chilly terrace sorry for spam again and if only 8 teams in challenger tournament we will still have 2 groups or all in 1?
and if one we will have 2 teams in second stage or 4?
#tourneys-discussion
remote tinsel
violet ember
??
remote tinsel
@violet ember hey welcome and dont forgot this channel for tournaments you can use #off-topic-discussion
chilly terrace
@remote tinsel There will be one group with top-4 teams which are advanced to the next stage in this case.
remote tinsel
ok thx
velvet dome
@winter swallow was the final match for ict a bug? Or did they just not show up???
mental yarrow
@velvet dome They didn't show up
They have matches on the Chinese server that overlapped with the matches against CW so they chose China server
works out better for my team jajaja
velvet dome
Did they actually tell you that? Jfc
mental yarrow
No they didn't tell me, they play on China server and they have a scheduled match same time as the match against CW
silver vapor
I'd think it's a fact by now that ICT in Asia is ICFC + TOP on CN server 🤔
velvet dome
No joke. I fear if I say anything else, I'll just be digging my hope deeper
silver vapor
nah lol
silver vapor
from what I know, ICT and LOW just knew about their ineligibility to enter Offlines via Asia server
it may just be that they feel that they don't need to do anything from here on to enter top 8 since they already secured, and also lost of motivation (my guess)
dim pivot
Wgs checking so we dont have anything to worry about
I thonk
silver vapor
I think @winter swallow asked already 🤔
not sure what was the answer
leaden belfry
The answer was that wg doesn't know
But that it's unlikely a technical issue
Because then some likely would have been in the room and others wouldn't
thorn shale
At least from our side you shouldn't expect any progettos in twister games
silver vapor
inb4 got dragged into the progetto meta later on, I'll make sure to remember this statement
thorn shale
If there arent any big changes to mediums there is no need for a progetto in the tournaments
dim pivot
Progetto meta? While the 215b and t22 meta exists?
We r hitting doubt levels that shudnt be possible
silver vapor
foch meta as well
thorn shale
E3 meta too
dim pivot
Yea i meant coz t22 and 215b r just mt killers
silver vapor
E3 is still at least half meta can't deny that
thorn shale
i wouldnt call it meta though
remote tinsel
is4 meta
silver vapor
lol no I already moved of that naive meta
dim pivot
Woah woah woah, u just made that 7 is4 fort strat Maddoz, why u lie
night trench
7 batchats is way cooler
dim pivot
We tried that, dint end well
B00N lives on tho
night trench
Mmhm
remote tinsel
7bc25t op in canal
thorn shale
b00n's a failure
night trench
Didn’t 7 batchats work on feast last time
silver vapor
no u
remote tinsel
e5 could back for twister proff tank will recive that hp consumable + speed booster like fv215b
thorn shale
Delete more messages pls
oak veldt
@silver vapor 7 bc on vineyards reveal
gentle sierra
Send them under the bridge 👀
summer pivot
7 Progetto tactics are ready
velvet dome
@winter swallow i want ur opinion on something, you have streamed 3 servers tournament. So i would like your opinion on Asia server gameplay and strats and could u also compare it with last years performance in the offline finals?
silver vapor
the professionals will feature better game play imo, since it's only Ascent I doubt teams will be pulling all the advance strats out just yet
winter swallow
So far, top level games of Ascents - the quality is up on Spring pros 2019.
wheat aspen
Gods tourmament today
winter swallow
However, Asia still lags behind EU/NA - and that is more to do with focus fire and quick rotations more than anything else. Brawls on Asia are, sloppy -
Relatively. Top Asia teams play a good game, but compared to a brawl EG- vs. CARNA or PRAMO vs. RGN, Asia server brawls feel not fully coordinated yet.
silver vapor
for sure
wheat aspen
I feel like Asia server is behind EU NA and CIS
silver vapor
Asia is definitely behind, since the competition and population is weaker overall, teams find less need to focus on things that other server heavily focuses on - focus fires and rotations
if FEAST were to get thrown into EU, we would definitely have to pull our best of everything out to even have a chance at top 8 imo
thorn shale
EU this year is very very tough
gentle sierra
😬
leaden belfry
Brian says it very subtly >.>
exactly what Maddox says, though
for Asia, I find that some clans have definitely advanced since Spring
in Spring Tournament a lot was dependent on which team just happened to have a bit more focus fire than the other
now, you see that several Asia clans have been actively at work with that, and at changing their tanks so it's no longer just an IS4 spamfest
gentle sierra
Rip is4 meta
signal lagoon
On the one hand, it’s good that IS-4 meta is dead, but on the other hand, FV-215b/Foch meta is kinda sketchy
leaden belfry
the meta right now is very twisted
but in Spring, IS4 was definitely used, but generally not 3 to 5 per match, on EU server
silver vapor
at least I moved out of that mostly already, but having to train my T-22 sense just becoz I'm one of the few owners of that tank in the team is just oof
remote tinsel
this time we have fv215b foch and t22 you dont need others tanks to make good tactic
foch can cap rush hold rotate or spot
gentle sierra
U do need other tanks
remote tinsel
yes but this 3 tanks can do the job
gentle sierra
Forgetting about the bc
remote tinsel
you can use it but also you can dont use it
flat goblet
Feels like meta is coming full circle to twister 1. Rush to aggressive positions and then brawl right after.
silver vapor
I guess "it's for the viewers"
gentle sierra
Give maus a speed boost like on the 215b
median mason
🌈
remote tinsel
noonooonon give maus hp boost same like fv215b @gentle sierra
- speed booster why not
leaden belfry
tbf, brawls aren't fun for viewers or streamers 😂
it's much more enjoyable to see a tactical game buildup =)
@silver vapor Feast is definitely one of the clans I meant when I said that some clans have advanced and are actively at work at training focus fire and changing the lineups
thorn shale
@signal lagoon wrong
leaden belfry
it's one of the reasons you're a top contender for Asia, imo
leaden belfry
^ yes
silver vapor
@leaden belfry idk, now it feels like there's something missing
thorn shale
But with tanks like 215b and Foch that have weak armor, the IS4 can be the key to winning
leaden belfry
though, I saw a team take 5 mice and 2 Foch's on Tuesday 🙃
thorn shale
Maus can work
leaden belfry
and 5 JG's and 2 Foch
thorn shale
Just extremely situational
leaden belfry
tbf, they were heavily trolling
gentle sierra
Which team used 5 mice 🤔
gentle sierra
Ah lol 😂
forest matrix
that was cause we were on stream @leaden belfry
we knew that u'd like
still seems that a one shot maus scared @pale finch 😝
graceful jetty
Amaunet likes mice huh 🤔
graceful jetty
Leopards.. Hmm
leaden belfry
it was a very big trolling day last Tuesday, that's for sure
it was quite funny, but at the same time, quite mean
forest matrix
I guess that was somehow a genuine cat mouse relationship then
leaden belfry
ahahaha
thorn shale
Smh. This scamo team is pulling a fast one. Why are this pramo player trying to be a epic gamer by leaving his pramo team just as when scamo needs tickets to play the game (and when they need cups to stay in top 8)??? Unfair. And wargaming really to do a good job and really do a fairness for the other teams and the community as a whole.
Update they also have a purpl player trying to do the same. The pramo is catching themselves in a super conspiracy once again in a twister season. S M H
fathom tiger
One team per clan in pro tourney
Feel free to share your idea why cant the real pros play the game in the level they are?
vivid citrus
explain what rules have been broken
also I wonder whose alt this is ^^^ 😂 @chilly hemlock
thorn shale
Please observe rule 11 and 5 sir evensteven from a top clan looking down on a noob like me
chilly hemlock
@thorn shale show me where it explicitly says one team per player
Until then you are just naming and shaming. Which isn’t allowed
empty dune
Oof he got a point
green plover
Lol it’s pretty obvious what the goal is which is to get scamo into top 8.
thorn shale
how can I see the live?
green plover
Number 11
You guys are basically arranging for scamo to get top 8 by sending maverick and space dawg which is to get an advantage
craggy sapphire
That is clearly against the rules imo, most the clans think the same.
thorn shale
You are right iraikonnen sir. There is no rule that states one team for player. However, how do you explain a world where two players suddenly join a clan, leave after Sunday when scamo gets enough tickets, and a chance to play comp in twister? Scamo has next to no mathematical chance of making top 8 with the fact that other teams have more tickets and more chances to win cups. Maybe if snowfox and maverick stay than it cash money of u sir
green plover
😂😂😂 cmon now I know you guys are rigging I’ve been in PRAMO already let’s not put on a show
thorn shale
And um rigging the standings in your favor is against the rules
green plover
Once again you guys do the same thing, poor performance and fall back to rigging your way into top 8
green plover
This is tournament discussion is it not?
chilly hemlock
I’m not dealing with clan flaming here
Move on
Everything that’s been posted will stay for wg to see
Then you’ll get your decision
green plover
I wonder what top 8 would look like with this change 🤔
peak terrace
I just feel bad for VON, MM and GP who are all close on points to potentially get a spot in Top 8, but they don't have 3 clans to choose players from to help them get there.
green plover
The team is registered tho last I checked?
chilly hemlock
So if they go back to their respective clans you guys will drop this huh?
thorn shale
Why did snowfox and spacedawg leave in the first place
faint scaffoldBOT
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE#7152 has been warned.
green plover
Well would you look at that ladies and gents i have taken this pic 10 seconds ago
chilly hemlock
Because teams can’t unregister huh?
thorn shale
Lol
craggy sapphire
Even if they went back its still very sketchy that you guys would do something like that in the first place?
thorn shale
Yes you can unregister after all this bad PR
green plover
Will they unregister is the question stay tuned to find out
thorn shale
how can I watch lives?
chilly hemlock
It’s not a rule anywhere
faint scaffoldBOT
simo_vito[-BA]#3648 has been warned.
chilly hemlock
You can try to imply it under 11
thorn shale
Doesn’t change what you are doing
chilly hemlock
But it’s up to Rexy
thorn shale
You know exactly what you are doing
peak terrace
@thorn shale I can send you a DM with the links to streams, seeing as you're getting warned for asking a tournament related question. 😂
thorn shale
No, he’s been warned to change his pfp
olive cairn
Sup
faint scaffoldBOT
乃乇Ꮆㄖ几乇#5211 was muted
peak terrace
O, I just assumed, poor guy was just wanting links to streams and then got yeeted.
thorn shale
@peak terrace ok send please
olive cairn
I feel like I'm the nubbest here
chilly hemlock
Are you in charge of the tournament tj?
thorn shale
You are making a behind the scenes arrangement for a Purpl player and a Pramo player to give tickets to Scamo
civic vine
Busted
thorn shale
And by doing this, Scamo can cheat their way into two ticket tournaments
It’s pretty black and white to me
craggy sapphire
We are not in charge of the tournament, but we are participating in it. We are only stating our opinions in the relevant channels.
thorn shale
And the rule is pretty clear @craggy sapphire
Scamo as a team didn’t earn two tickets
So for Pramo player and Purpl player to join them and give two tickets so that Scamo can have better chance to make top 8 is clearly violating Rule 11
civic vine
Crickets chirping
thorn shale
@civic vine yep 😄
chilly hemlock
@timber grotto we aren’t going to name and shame here
thorn shale
Because there is no counter to what people have been saying
chilly hemlock
Other than there’s no rule saying one player can only participate for one team
Sure
civic vine
Oh lord....
low badger
F
craggy sapphire
"Collusion shall include, but is not limited to, the following cases"
tall python
to be fair if this was the case, there would have been a clan lock just so there would be no discussion about it, but there isn’t one.
civic vine
So if another clan did this, what wld happen? Just really curious
tall python
we’re still free to recruit and snipe players from other clans that have tickets. there’s no such penalty for that
thorn shale
Whose we?
floral python
@tall python test tanks arent allowed to be played in training rooms but last time i checked there is no lock preventing you from pressing ready up in them
thorn shale
I thought you were Pramo lead, not Scamo lead? @tall python
You are talking about sniping and recruiting people to Scamo?
tall python
@floral python they tell you that you aren’t allowed to play them in any other mode besides normal pubs. so
chilly hemlock
It applies to every clan. No?
floral python
yeah but like u said there isnt a lock, is there @tall python
chilly hemlock
There isn’t a rule where you can only play for one clan
chilly hemlock
That rule has been explicitly written in before
thorn shale
Doesn’t mean its not against the rules
chilly hemlock
It’s not there this time
thorn shale
And I like the whataboutism from Pramo here
chilly hemlock
Actually no. It’s quite different
thorn shale
We aren’t talking about moving clans being prohibited
toxic lintel
Maybe he got poached
thorn shale
We are talking about Rule 11
chilly hemlock
Happens a lot lately doesn’t it @toxic lintel
thorn shale
tall python
@thorn shale i’m talking about anyone who would want to snipe players from any clan lol
thorn shale
^
craggy sapphire
Because wg doesnt expect teams to change. Because its not beneficial for a team to change during one of the most important tourneys of the years.
thorn shale
When you're using snowfox and space as tools to help a feeder hit top 8, it's not very cash money of u
chilly hemlock
Haven’t you read the rules by wg? Every clan is separate now
thorn shale
^
toxic lintel
Lol
chilly hemlock
-rgn- has nothing to do with rgn right?
tall python
@floral python not using test tanks is a known rule. players moving from clans to clans is something that isn’t clearly stated. people can get sniped and there isn’t no penalty for that.
chilly hemlock
😂
peak terrace
Wait what? 😂
low badger
Um... what
craggy sapphire
Rgn hasnt done anything of the sort.
thorn shale
And we are proud that our RGN teams don’t need to share people who have tickets so that they can qualify for Top 8
tall python
lol
thorn shale
I’m amused how the topic has been turned away
peak terrace
Please don't name and shame my clan, thank you.
thorn shale
Let’s have a reminder
low badger
We had zero roster changes but ok
low badger
Wow I never knew scamo could create tickets out of thin air
thorn shale
A Pramo player who has registered with Pramo team all Twister suddenly goes to Scamo and gives them tickets. Purpl player who who has registered with Purpl team all Twister suddenly goes to Scamo.
civic vine
Santa clause of course
thorn shale
Such a mysterious happenstance
toxic lintel
There’s no rule saying that you are not allowed to leave clans throughout the tournaments.
civic vine
Lol
craggy sapphire
Its not the leaving thats the problem. Its the collusion behind it
floral python
yes but there is a rule saying agreement between players to provide advantages to one team are prohobited
toxic lintel
Ok but that’s quite vague don’t you think. He could have left for a number of different reasons
chilly hemlock
I’d ask how you prove collusion
But I’ll just skip over that
Everyone has made their points quite clearly
There’s not much else to say
craggy sapphire
Leave a clan thats in 1st place to give TWO tickets to a team that will miss a tourney day. Both clans being under the same family? That does seem normal doesnt it
thorn shale
^
chilly hemlock
Three people left void for rgn while void won pro season
thorn shale
But it’s ok @craggy sapphire they will keep claiming innocence
chilly hemlock
Anyways
toxic lintel
Where’s fadoo btw. Haven’t seen him on much
timber grotto
Remember how much you complained about PNCR trying to have one of their teams throw in twister 18 top 3? It's interesting that youre looking the other way about this @chilly hemlock
chilly hemlock
I’m not
thorn shale
RGN was still a finalist, and a team that prior to the pro final loss, hadn’t lost a game. Scamo are struggling to make top 8
@toxic lintel he’s great, just been busy with school
vital obsidian
o maj so many chats...
toxic lintel
Lol is that so
tall python
@timber grotto it actually happened but ok lol. shows how much you know. there are people from those teams that will speak for how that night actually went down
chilly hemlock
Our teams will be unregistered and put back into the original rosters. I appreciate everyone’s concerns
Everyone can relax now
tall python
guess we will just have to snipe players from other clans with tickets instead :v shame shame shame
peak terrace
What does that have to do with anything? 😂
thorn shale
It doesn’t
chilly hemlock
Moving on
faint scaffoldBOT
_tanner [PRAMO]#2330 was muted
civic vine
So who’s going to Russia ?
empty dune
Lol
civic vine
True, but they are close neighbors, kinda like pramo and scamo? 😂😂
barren sinew
Don't forget pram0
chilly hemlock
Didn’t even know that was a thing
civic vine
How many pramo clans are there?
toxic lintel
There’s a Slamo too
chilly hemlock
@civic vine 4 officially. Unofficially idk
terse perch
mmmmm
neon thistle
Hm
slender fern
Framo is up and coming
chilly hemlock
@lilac bolt what do you need?
terse perch
As for what aphropanda said, GP and R are not alone, yesterday we making a train, being that nobody helps us, what better way to help each other
thorn shale
Wrong channel
@lilac bolt
Talk about this in #off-topic-discussion
And change your pfp @lilac bolt
thorn shale
at times like this, i wish megu told me about this sooner
winter swallow
Tanks Rolling hsn't seen so far in Ascents: E100, M48, Leo1, Chinese td, E4, 4202, vk72,
peak terrace
I just named the closest 3 from Top 8, didn't mean to offend if you felt that way. ❤ @terse perch
Challenge Accepted @winter swallow 👀
winter swallow
someone plays a 7x 4202 strat they cna have a medal.
thorn shale
bet
peak terrace
Also, did you mean Chinese TD, or Chinese Heavy? I feel like the 113s have been used quite often, at least on EU. 🤔
winter swallow
*td - 113 been played a lot
peak terrace
Perfect, I've been waiting to play mine. 113G 👌
terse perch
No, but I was not offended by my friend, I just mentioned it, because many help each other, in training and that kind of thing, if they help each other, because I think I already left my differences with gp and since yesterday we started help each other, I had bad luck, in the first days of winning the ticket I had no electricity and my team left without stopping: they lost everything @peak terrace np ❤
we are nubs xd
peak terrace
That's awesome to see and hear, Sava. It's nice to see clans set their differences aside and evolve in competitive together. Especially on NA. 👌
terse perch
Of course, friend, and I understood why remember the time where we trained together,do you remember? When R grew up and you in PNCR helped us. There I understood that the community can help each other. thx Aphropanda owo
gentle sierra
@winter swallow 7 121s better tbh
graceful jetty
@winter swallow actually e7 has taken all of those tanks except the m48
Not quite sure if the 113 gft and e4 was played on stream tho..
graceful jetty
Yeah cinderellas tank of choice
thorn shale
And there goes Scamo
graceful jetty
If it wasnt played on stream for ascents it was definitely there in top echelon
winter swallow
wz121added to list
flat goblet
E4 is good, don’t h8
winter swallow
If you don't run one I will be so disappointed
terse perch
🐷
vagrant phoenix
🙈
idle basalt
Leo 1 very bad with the whole spam of foch and 215bs,its HEland for the enemy.
winter swallow
smh - some teams running 50bs on EU knowing full well enemy team will have 1-3 155's. I tell you, some people are mad.
sleek yew
Very cool
winter swallow
why is NA in the timezone iti s? this is some cowdoodoo right here
I'm so tired lol - I can feel my brain melting. I mean, is that physically possible? IDK. Feels like it tho
thorn shale
@winter swallow bruh I believe in you
winter swallow
slaps self violently in face - chugs coffee - holds eyelids open with matchsticks
tender tundra
@graceful jetty @winter swallow I’ve played all those tanks in tourney. Like all tourneys I got one of those tanks to play streamed or not, I’ve played all smh. Join @leaden belfry in E7 and I show you meta
graceful jetty
He just added wz121 so u need to play that now @tender tundra
Also rolling have u seen a 121B yet?
tender tundra
Smh is this a personal attack? Watch me
thorn shale
what is slowmode?
winter swallow
A curse upon my very soul.
tender tundra
@winter swallow join E7 for enlightenment
flat goblet
haha, u watched tom and jerry as a youngin? @winter swallow
sleek basin
this is our about 5th time we’ve played winter mal in like three tournaments against pramo and rgn, I didn’t know there was only one comp map available, but o well, like I’ll play winter mal against pramo in a best of 99 if that wat it takes to make it to Minsk, buuuuuut umm
flat goblet
It’s probably ‘true’ random map selection.
sleek basin
They cut out canyon and himmelsdorf and out in middle burg and winter mal, I cri, boring gameplay is ahead😫
idle basalt
should use 7 grilles on himmels and go D
humble summit
Oof my eyes
terse perch
Im sad
idle basalt
@terse perch i pat
terse perch
this tournament make me stressed
sleek basin
Ya winter mal is really getting to me 😂😂😂
humble summit
Is tourney streaming tonight ?
sleek basin
I hope so so that even the viewers get sick of winter mal
terse perch
My head is broke
humble summit
Lel
winter swallow
I will make commentary extra good to offset maps
sleek basin
Lol yus u make it up to us with ur op commentary
odd wolf
lol
@sleek basin what’s the deal with [RGN] and [-RGN-]? I noticed a couple days ago and was confused :/
sleek basin
Wats your question sorry?
wicked snow
@odd wolf two teams from same clan had to split because of one team per clan in top 8 policy
odd wolf
Aaaah. Thank u @wicked snow
sleek basin
^^^^^
empty dune
Dumb rule imo
@sleek basin luv u (when you don’t shoot me in tourneys) I luv you all the time. Just had to make it topical.
sleek basin
Haha, I like getting shot by snowfox too❤️(in tourneys obviously)
Well I got kicked from my own clan cuz wg, but they are just trying make things better so oh well it’s the thought that counts as mom says
peak terrace
We still love you Tomie
sleek basin
Lov u too my fake rgn counterpart ❤️❤️😜
idle basalt
No you're fake rgn smh
sleek basin
No u
wicked snow
NGR is the real one tho @idle basalt
Same on EU its always winter Mali for some reason
sleek basin
Lmao I love winter map as much as the next guy....buuuuut I like variety uc 😏 @chilly hemlock
chilly hemlock
7 foch this time?😉
sleek basin
Ya we didn’t bring enough last time, that’s why we lost 6 not enough
toxic lintel
winter mal is my favourite map
wicked snow
I believe its random however it's like crates u know , u have 0,2 drop chances for Mayan, 0,2 for alpen ect , then 90% winter mali
chilly hemlock
We should change quick to counter that
sleek basin
Lol rg
stone ridge
07 Tomie
sleek basin
Oseven 🙂
flat goblet
Yeah, it’s ‘true’ random as opposed to “random”
sleek basin
Lmao
empty dune
False
sleek basin
I need to stay on topic 👀
chilly hemlock
@winter swallow thank you for staying up late and streaming NA. I hope you get some rest now
vague obsidian
🙌🏽🙌🏽❤️
winter swallow
v welcome @chilly hemlock - always a pleasure to see the likes of PRAMO and RGN in action o7
chilly hemlock
o7
bitter zodiac
Hi
rotund jewel
Hmmmm
faint scaffoldBOT
alexxnavee _MVP_#2476 has been warned.
vital obsidian
For challenge tour (and pro) is it the same team 3+7 entered who plays all days or can players be changed?
And how are the 2 groups distributed in challenger (suppose there are 2 groups of 8) by wr or how?
leaden belfry
I believe it's 3+7 from that stage onwards 🤔 can't imagine they'll have everyone register a team (almost) every day for it
vital obsidian
Its quite though to keep so many days free
leaden belfry
Wg basically expects you to commit to having no life for 9 days, to have a chance at 100k dollars 😅
vital obsidian
High possibility in challenge 🤣
winter swallow
@leaden belfry chance at $50k split 7 ways minimum - tax. Say $5k per person.
which is roughly €4,500.00
low badger
wonder what 6th place is
winter swallow
btw - I predicted EU last night. Called results of 18 fixtures. I got 14/18 right. That is 77.77% success rate.
Called overall winner and playoff winner wrong on stream >.<
leaden belfry
@winter swallow that's more than I earn in 9 days, though 🙃
and don't forget - the top of the Professionals also gets money prizes
winter swallow
$200 per player for a full squad of 10
silver vapor
Equal split ftw
thorn shale
@winter swallow No faith into us 😢
silver vapor
lol
thorn shale
I want an official apology for this very bold statement of us not winning 😄
nimble pilot
.
silver vapor
@thorn shale you can request an apology when you meet him in Minsk 🙃
thorn shale
Krep then i have to win first
viscid python
More than you get in nine days for sure.
But I think twister winners have "a bit" more work behind than 9 days. 😄
silver vapor
yeah definitely more work than 9 days (or more panic just because you don't have members for offlines 😂, just like me last year)
thorn shale
Way more than 9 days 😦
winter swallow
@silver vapor WG have to invite me first 😔
@thorn shale many faiths in you - just I felt like RA1D would win it lol
thorn shale
Tbf, those were really good games. To my disappointment however, the stream of PKonBlitz was not very professional and was focusing more on some random stuff that nobody is interested in
half urchin
he likes to watch the airplanes passing by
silver vapor
hmm "professional" is a strict word that doesn't apply to everyone
low badger
I was surprisingly entertained about the production quality and the caster commentary. Not very good from a quality standpoint but entertaining in its surprise factor
silver vapor
@low badger who
low badger
Pk. Overall I think he did pretty gud @silver vapor
silver vapor
🤔
gentle sierra
X
thorn shale
Ra1d tries to cap A on Fort and Carnage blind shots every position to decap. Decap at the very last second PK: Nothing happening
silver vapor
¯_(ツ)_/¯
technically he is right ya know, no caps has been taken = nothing happening
gentle sierra
🤔
distant tusk
:( I'll try to some action in next stream with great Commentary. Improving English and other things. ( I quit 1 year ago, so now I have experience of 2 weeks streaming Tournaments again) I am not best , but I'll try to make it works for me. But Rolling and Amaunet are OP, my stream is 0 infront of them .
I'll try to be more focused on startgies teams are using but it's still hard for me to understand what type of starts they are up to. Never seen such great strategies and moves from EU clan
green plover
@distant tusk tbh besides the part where you try hard to make jokes your stream is fine.
distant tusk
@green plover Thanks I'll try hard in next stream and copy Rolling and Amaunet. I also copy Bushka and Sk8, but still learning to make it works for me. Apologies again
green plover
Nothing to apologize about, you're still learning to stream.
distant tusk
Thanks for understanding and giving me chance to learn. :)
fringe galleon
Thx for streaming PK, keep it up. Your english is fine and i enjoyed watching
distant tusk
@fringe galleon thank you so much, that's the best words for me . I love when people appreciate me
vital obsidian
@chilly terrace how does pro/challenge tour work?
- When are tickets sent to all in clan?
- What if player leave or join after tickets sent?
- How many groups will be in pro/challenge tour?
- What is the seeding system in the tours?
chilly terrace
@vital obsidian
- After all tournaments with cups. We won't announce the exact date.
- If player isn't in clan at the moment of giving out of tickets, he won't receive anything.
- Check out regulations. They've been already posted on forum.
- Paragraph 3.
vital obsidian
Tx! Forum = the wg website?
chilly terrace
Challengers Tournament regulations - http://forum.wotblitz.eu/index.php?/topic/52562-twister-challengers-tournament/
Professionals Tournament - http://forum.wotblitz.eu/index.php?/topic/52563-twister-professionals-tournament/
vital obsidian
And will player keep the tkt if he leaves
chilly terrace
@vital obsidian He will.
thorn shale
@chilly terrace Will every player from the clan receive a ticket that is only applicable in a team created by that same clan?
Or are they able to go out of the clan and create a different team?
vital obsidian
I think he already answered, the player can go out and keep tkt
median mason
But only qualified clans are able to create a team
chilly terrace
@thorn shale I've posted regulations above. If you are going to participate in Professional or Challenger tournament, it will be better for you to read them. Answering to your question: "Only teams which represent clans from Top Echelon are allowed to participate in this tournament." - it's line from regulations.
thorn shale
ok
faint scaffoldBOT
Warning logged for alinhaha#0070. They were not warned.
machal#8876 has been warned.
faint scaffoldBOT
machal#8876 has been warned.
pallid raven
When will the underdogs get a chance to make it further, without facing eg in the quarter finals
I understand why u want to make it "best" versus "worse" so that the "top teams" make it to the finals, but if have no chance to progress because u are facing one of the finalists in the quarter finals every time and its kinda unfair, for the teams battling for 16-7 positions
median mantle
Idk, git gud @pallid raven ?
echo wagon
@pallid raven👌
pallid raven
hard to beat the finalists, not even u could
echo wagon
L1t only lost against top 8 Teams and is not in the top 16. Other clans like gneis lost against top 20 Teams, but they are in the Top 16. Sounds fair...gg wg for a mm where stats decide about your Position and not CW skill
Lxn + t1l, a German team that won against r2k but is not in top 16, because we lost against carna, eg, fbi and nav1n
median mantle
So u lost 4 of your 5 matches and conclude u deserve to be in top 16?
echo wagon
Our Quarter Finals: Souls, eg, nav1n, immor
Gneis: 2 Teams wich are not in Top 32 and teshr (rank 20)
Fair would be a random mm or a mm based on ranked in Hall of Fame
gentle sierra
😂 😂
median mantle
U can’t say I m not good enough to beat some teams but I deserve a chance to go to finals
gentle sierra
L1t is in the top 16 check the leaderboard , unless u dont have a tiket for tomorrow
half urchin
if u saved your ticket for saturday, you maybe would have made more cups 🤔
gentle sierra
Just because you beat 1 of the pros it doesnt say anything , its bo3 anything can happen
remote tinsel
but many teams in top 16 didnt get ticketss for saturday i think l1t are safe to stay in top 16
median mantle
Being top 8 qualifies u for online finals, right? What’s the point of being 9-16?
median mason
Wild ticket
half urchin
challengers tour
echo wagon
@half urchin we would have the worst wr so we would have palyed against carna, eg or sth like that like yesterday
@median mantle we are better than some Top 16 clans...we beat most of then in tournaments
@gentle sierra @remote tinsel immor will get 613 points tomorrow and we have no Ticket
remote tinsel
and if you look down kothers in this list cant play staurday expect immor but if immor get top 16 they will have more than 2200 points
half urchin
@echo wagon sure thing, butt less teams results maybe in a better posi
gentle sierra
Immor also didnt have tickets for 2 ticketed tourneys , if they manage to pass u then its your fault
median mantle
I would have expected KRKS to be in top 4. What happened to them?
low badger
What self respecting clan would field a challengers team and twister team?
Instead of two clans compeiting for two twister spots
echo wagon
@gentle sierra look at their opponents and at ours...we habe carna, they teshr...fair
remote tinsel
its all about wr have better wr get ez groups
gentle sierra
🤷
remote tinsel
well wg check only best 7 wr to make it fair btw all team who have 7 players and who have 9 so why not look maybe last 10 battles of players wr so make it fair btw old players and rerolls
echo wagon
@remote tinsel thx
remote tinsel
still this year system is better than old year did help good clans like fbi to be in top 8 even they have 66 wr team only if that was with old system they could get carna raid or loca and maybe go out from first stage
gentle sierra
Will agree on that
median mantle
What if u are virtually top 1 according to recent win rate and still lose vs carna eg etc ?
gentle sierra
Even though it is a 2 week long qualifying process
remote tinsel
you can never make perfect system @median mantle and wr not all
median mantle
Perfect system doesn’t exist but current one is probably the most fair we can have
echo wagon
Double elemination would fix the Problem...singel elemination with wr based mm is the Problem
remote tinsel
true een in un1 we lost one ticket tourney because of ammorack but yeah we dont deserve to be in top 8 with the way we played so i think its fair system so far
also i think the 8 best teams on eu made it to top 8
flat goblet
WR is a lazy, but practical (?) way to make groups. Ideally/theoretically, there’s a better system to determine, but that would require a lot of variables to track, similar to the WN series for player statistics. And even then, it would not be perfect and there would still be disagreement.
echo wagon
Yea, top 8 is fine, rank 9-20 not.
@flat goblet double elemination groups are the Solution. And that is easy
gentle sierra
Playing for 1 month to determine top and middle echelon?
flat goblet
Double elim for what though?
echo wagon
@gentle sierra doesnt Change anything. We are not in Top 16 because we got the Top Teams to early evry tournamemt
half urchin
yeah 4 weeks qualifiers for 5 days pro/ challenger tour
seems gut
echo wagon
@flat goblet because the lowler tree is not based on wr mm
flat goblet
9-16?
gentle sierra
Yes thats what they're doing , obvs
flat goblet
@pallid raven that’s standard comp practice. You should even be doing that in pubs. I don’t see your point.
Spot tanks, rotate accordingly.
half urchin
if its that easy to copy, make it to top 4 😂
gentle sierra
^^
flat goblet
What’s your point? Teams aren’t playing stalemate “strats” by sitting in an area for most of the match and not rotating, and that’s bad? Not quite following.
faint scaffoldBOT
MoRMa1oS#6974 was banned
gentle sierra
🤔
thorn shale
@pallid raven seems like you have rly a lot of experience when it comes to CW. Maybe start experiencing it not just through the streams
flat goblet
He does have experience, which is why I am confused by his claims.
vital obsidian
Agree, get back fast Ting
strong marsh
top clans don't need strat sketch
shell vault
what is stratsketch
thorn shale
Maybe there is a tactic behind the relocations?
strong marsh
just say go A or C and kill reds
thorn shale
@pallid raven i see that your experience has done great when you‘ve met us in twister
flat goblet
@pallid raven afaik, whoopzie isn't main caller. And even if he was and that is how that particular team was run, why do you think it's proper to assume that all teams run that way?
vital obsidian
The meta rn calls for fast decisions and relocations but I think there is always good to have some map strats to use 🤔
thorn shale
Especially its ascent the tactics are saved for prof and finals maybe???
gentle sierra
Just because people dont use strat scetch it doesnt mean teams dont have tactics lol
7 121 rush strat reveal @thorn shale
"Shame its a touch only tournament" ?
I c
flat goblet
I've played with multiple clans as well. Most every clan I've been with has a strat link. Quick tourneys are an exception, where strats will be used very broadly, tanks and whatever are swapped etc. But that's only because they aren't serious tourneys.
pallid raven
It has definitely decreased, probably because there are now less clans taking part
median mantle
QT is also a way to train
flat goblet
Strats on a strat link are generally only initial position, maybe 1-2 reactions. But it's not possible to predict every outcome, and even less so to memorize or come up with a proper reaction. Training rooms is purely anecdotal evidence. For one, less clans are participating in this big tourney, like you said.
vital obsidian
I think too tours every day reduce interest to train
median mantle
^^
remote tinsel
i use paint to make tactics
vital obsidian
I like when in tours same maps rerurns it is kinda training
gentle sierra
Fishy knows de way
flat goblet
yo, MS paint is actually OP strat maker (top sikrit strat don't share)
@remote tinsel thank you for the big tips man 👍
chilly hemlock
@flat goblet draw in a blue snake wrapped around the castle and you’re all set
flat goblet
oh yeah, that is the most OP location. claimed the lives of 3 in one match at an offline.
median mantle
Advanced drawing skills mate 😺 @flat goblet
vivid citrus
you mind if we borrow that @flat goblet
flat goblet
Go ahead dawg
thorn shale
@pallid raven its a mobile game ofc im not gonna compare to PC. And even though you are playing like that your clan wouldn‘t stand a chance in a training no matter the control settings
I‘ve spent like so many hours on tactic links with my cotacticians to make tactics i dont need anyone telling me the opposite when they clearly dont know us
rose raptor
Looking to compete in tourneys anyone have openings?
silver vapor
*acknowledged*
thorn shale
@flat goblet hey!!
Why are you leaking my strats?!?!
😡
@vivid citrus I’ll have you know that’s top secret and off limits👀
flat goblet
It’s my strat dumbo
toxic lintel
send me mines strat @flat goblet
flat goblet
Give sec, will send later. Should be easy but I am a little busy
thorn shale
I like how CW Experience is always counted in years. Even though I have had so far „only 2 years“ of CW Experience I am far ahead of a lot of players. It literally doesn‘t mean a thing when you learn quicker or are doing so more actively in a shorter period of time
pallid raven
@thorn shale if you play with good players you learn more. I have always played with people I have enjoyed playing with and if that includes playing with below average plays then so be it. If I wanted to I could play competitive on wot pc, but it's not something I want to do, because of the friends I have made in blitz over the years.
Experience may not be important to you, because you have team mates who know how to play, but for the people who have put the work in, it is important.
thorn shale
@pallid raven wow, thinking I need to be carried by my team mates
Since when do you know CARNAGE so well?
faint scaffoldBOT
TheTingGoes_ESA [-ESA-]#2975 has been warned.
pallid raven
Wow, didn't mean anything against him
thorn shale
Ok. Then move on.
pallid raven
What a pleasant conversation
timber grotto
I lost my last two brain cells reading that conversation
pallid raven
I gained half a brain cell
elder sinew
👀
brave night
Anyone want to join a 5-6 tournament
silver vapor
@brave night #tourneys-team-search
faint scaffoldBOT
Billy_940#0247 has been warned.
brave night
O thank
terse perch
cool
thorn shale
yeah thats pretty cool
echo wagon
@bright tundra thank you 👍
summer pivot
What happend ?
echo wagon
I said that the wr based System in acesment was unfair and is the only reason my Clan is not in top16
Conversation start 22:20 @summer pivot
vital obsidian
Agree with Mike. It would work okay if there were more groups (as on ru) but with fewer groups it is rude
summer pivot
of course it's unfair I have a bad wr but I play like a 70% lol
silver vapor
In short, wr based mm is not the way to go.
summer pivot
I think the best way is everyone vs everyone.. so every team has an equal chance
flat goblet
The groups just seemed off on NA to me, but I never did the calculations. Can’t say more than “it look rong”
summer pivot
it will take time but it's fair .. wr sucks
echo wagon
Or a league System...First league 8 Teams, second 8 or 10 Teams
faint scaffoldBOT
WG learn to design tournaments#5828 has been warned.
silver vapor
Lol that name
Tbh, it's only the seeding mechanism that is screwed up. And also how they want to break clans apart. Those two are sort of the things that Wargaming NEED to improve
echo wagon
Cause it was cleared again:
Thanks @bright tundra
silver vapor
As for changing all the SE to DE, I think it can have a positive impact, and it maybe good for ticketed ascent tournaments, and I'm pretty sure if it's for the sake of finding the better team everyone should be willing to cope with DE tournaments
silver vapor
I still think better seeding is better solution
median mason
🙄
silver vapor
I'm not going to guess his age
thorn shale
Lmao
distant tusk
(Suggestions)
#1-Next year for Ascent streamers can see Tournaments till finals.
#2- We are like 3 streamers to cover this big event (EU and NA) and there are alot of professional clans who don't get coverage , please try to get more streamers next time. I know many streamers as I Host Tournaments too who really want to stream but they get no chances(They say it). There are many more whom I don't know too, they are also willing to. Next time a public announcement for streamers would be great so streamers will apply and WG will choose best of best . We need new streamers for these types of online Tournaments so we can see variety of clans.
#3- A channel here too for sharing the official stream of WG.
@chilly terrace
Best regards,
PK
leaden belfry
@distant tusk We will follow everything to the finals from Professionals onwards, but we can't for the ascent as the registration closes so late
I think I explained that to you before?
distant tusk
@leaden belfry I said a suggestion for next year , yes you told me this time but I said for next year. I am saying for Ascent Tournaments I know about professionals as you told me.
leaden belfry
For that to be different, WG would have to work until after office hours or on the weekend, to ensure we see the finals
distant tusk
I am still editing my message here btw to make it look okay in English and I'll tag rexy
leaden belfry
but I do hope the qualifying format will be changed drastically for Spring Tournament >.>
distant tusk
@leaden belfry yeah actually I received messages from fellow content makers and clan leaders for more streamers so I said it as a suggestion
velvet dome
@winter swallow owo i saw your stream, 3 predictions wrong lol. Anyway K1NG manage to beat ND in the semi final, effectively getting into top 8, though massive odds against us. Anyway was wondering if for ur EU stream u would like the replays of the matches in semifinals so u can like show how the final position was obtained??
winter swallow
Sounds good to me.
Send replays of players that survive matches lol and do many damages
velvet dome
kk
viscid python
Showing replays of other server's games between streaming server x games is actually very good idea IMO.
vital obsidian
Agri
median mason
Good idea indeed
median mason
9 teams in the top 8 on EU. What's gonna happen now?
winter swallow
@median mason -1- get knocked down to Challengers... There is a clear top 8 teams by cups.
median mason
Ok
winter swallow
However, that is just my interpretation. @chilly terrace holds official confirmation.
fathom tiger
Pawel op
median mason
@fathom tiger open
gentle sierra
Woooooot
chilly terrace
@median mason There will be the Last Chance Tournament tomorrow where they will be able to get more cups.
median mason
@chilly terrace nvm. I just read the rules
gentle sierra
@chilly terrace is the tourney just for the 2 tied clans or for all teams ?
Do the rest need to play ?
median mason
All teams from middle and top echelon
chilly terrace
@gentle sierra For any teams from clans which are placed in the Top and Middle echelons. Not mote than 2 teams from clan.
vital obsidian
placing by what result page
who is playing what
where are the rules? if not playing is there a risk of score board changes
gentle sierra
Doubt it , first place gives 59 cups
vital obsidian
where do u see that
gentle sierra
In game, last chance tourney tomorrow , in rewards
gentle sierra
Its only one team per clan
vital obsidian
Rexy says 2
gentle sierra
Ah ye nvm lol
forest matrix
Maybe just read tournament description it’s all written down
vital obsidian
And he also say the last chance is for teams in top and middle but there are other teams registered 👀
Atm 7 registered and only one of those are from middle echelon
forest matrix
Mates and especially @chilly terrace @lime glen @winter swallow @leaden belfry
I wanted to share some thoughts and my feedback about EU server Twister qualification stage and the system in place this year. Intent of this message is certainly not to open debate with any of the qualified teams, but to show (to my eyes) some weakness of this year seeding and qualifying system in the perspective of future pro tournaments qualifications.
First of all congrats to the top 8 teams that qualified to the Pro tournament. I truly believe these are the best 8 teams currently on EU server.
Still I feel absolutely not comfortable about challenger tournaments output. I have seen that @pallid raven raised the same point yesterday and I wanted to feed his statement with figures.
First key point I need to highlight about middle echelon qualification it was all about getting tickets
With 4 tickets, whatever your later results, you were insured to receive 3240 cups at the end of the qualification stage which put you to 9th position on the actual leaderboard.
So first conclusion, WG could have limited this 2-weeks long qualification stage for challenger to actually playing 4 games. All was about winning the 4 ¼ finals and the tickets. I think this is already showing a weakness of the system.
Then I see a second problem. These 4 matchs were incredibly influenced by the seeding system (strongest-weakest). Between the qualified and the first eliminated teams (L1V and KRK-S) I felt like there was just too much gap to be fair.
To make my mind I took all challengers qualified + first eliminated teams and checked against who they won (or loss) their ¼ finals and just computed the actual strengths of these teams based on their final rankings. In order to make a "ticket difficulty" rating.
Without undermining credits of the qualified teams, some just received a master help from the seeding and matchmaking system. And some (worst case being L1T then KRK-S the first teams out...) just not.
The lowest the difficulty of ticket the harder it was.
I think that’s the issue of having so few teams associated to single elimination format. Also that’s the issue with the seeding system fully winrate based. We have in KRK-S team some T10 super unicum with green winrates. Do we deserve to face EG- in ¼ final as a consequence ? I’m quite sure WG can engineer some better algorithm focusing on 30 days for example or CW results.
I am also thinking double elimination makes quite long tournaments but at the end helps to sort out teams in a much finer way.
Thanks for reading (omg that is super long :))
chilly hemlock
@forest matrix certainly this year’s qualifying and format wasn’t perfect. I think that it was a good way of getting a more accurate top 8 but it still needs some work. Thank you for taking the time to make a chart and back up your story with actual facts and stats
leaden belfry
Imo, there's many things flawed about the qualification system used this time around. But, I am in favour of strongest vs weakest startup, but even that doesn't always go as intended. Today, R2K had their first match vs Apa, after which they immediately met Carna, and the winner of that were likely to face Raid (Raid lost to W1N, but that was the bracket). Point is that it doesn't always seed as you'd like.
Strongest weakest isn't perfect, but if I recall, the first or second twister cup, they didn't use this system, and it meant that clans that really have no chance at all made it through, because most of the strong clans were in another group together.
There is, unfortunately, no perfect system for seeding. Especially for teams that have been around for a very long time - and thus have tons of battles - the average sets you back =(
gleaming pollen
IMO keep The seeding of The first tournament The same and then on base The seeding on your teams cups
leaden belfry
My main issue with this season's way of qualifying is the whole ticketed business. We've seen, on all Mondays and Tuesdays, that once people get a ticket, they just start to derp around. Because of the limited amount of registered teams, and the byes that have been given, quite a few clans only had to win one match to get a ticket
Not to mention that the qualification stage actually has more days of battle than the actual professionals tournament. That's just a bit strange imo
Also on Tuesday and Saturday - especially this week, people didn't really take it all that seriously, because as long as you participated and won like the first round - and maybe not even that if you had a bye before - you were likely to gather enough cups
We've seen some clans try their absolute hardest, but imo, the system used for qualification this year invites a lot of derping around, and not having to show the back of your tongue to make it through, so to speak
pale finch
I assume that you don’t face all clans twice in the professional tournament like the last years which is a bit of a shame imo
leaden belfry
No, there's just one round of round Robin this year, but it is Bo7
But I'm talking about just the qualifiers - as those are finished now
I'm trying to hold off on judging too harshly on the rest of it before it's happened, though I definitely have my concerns regarding that too >.>
chilly hemlock
I think you’re right @leaden belfry
Ditch the tickets and just have 8 qualifying tournaments instead
That way one mistake doesn’t kill you completely
leaden belfry
^ that. All with equal amount of cups. Makes it a lot more fair and likely to be serious
chilly hemlock
Scamo missed one ticket tournament because of a bad Monday tournament and that ended them essentially
leaden belfry
And don't host other tournaments on the same that, as that severely limits the registration of teams for the qualifiers >.>
tranquil seal
👆 Tru
gentle sierra
The teams that care about twister wont miss the tournaments though🤷
chilly hemlock
I think amaunet’s idea is to make each tournament bigger
chilly hemlock
@leaden belfry can you vc?
leaden belfry
In Asia, there were generally like 3 matches, including the finals, because of the few registrations
I can, one sec. What channel?
chilly hemlock
Any
leaden belfry
Am there
pallid raven
^^^^
sharp vine
winter swallow
I'd suggest a halfway house. Play 6 non-ticketed tournaments with equal cup scorings. Have the last 2 tournaments accessible only to X number of teams that scored over Y number of cups.
Now, I'll say I was actually 100% for the current format. Having seen the point drafted by @forest matrix , my position has changed and noting his analysis, I would support a revision of the process for the next major tournament series. - Seriously Shogun, a very well put together arguement. Clear, logical and diplomatic. Much respect.
fringe galleon
There is one mistake, ESA got only 3 tickets. They lost to us in first tournament
thorn shale
Niceee
runic sandal
@thorn shale @thorn shale
narrow meteor
I love getting RGN to face everytime my team gets into the big Ascent tourneys...
runic sandal
Way
bright tundra
- Winrate based groups are a good idea but it has its limitations. L1T’s example from EU was egregious. I saw on some server someone laughing at them crying. I was curious and looked at their match history: they never got a chance to play against teams at “challenger” (9-16) level, rather they played scrubs (and always won) or “pro” (1-8) level teams and had a pretty damn good record against them.
Winrate distinguishes adequately between a 47% team and a 55% team, but it’s not fit for the purpose of determining a more likely winner between a 62% team and a 67% team. It discriminates harshly against some of the game’s best and most dedicated players, who started off mediocre and turned good - and of course rewards rerolls.
leaden belfry
what does that have to do with tournaments, though?
is that what he wants to by from twister money?
@chilly hemlock happy to stream you =) Fun games, overall =)
chilly hemlock
It’s what I want to buy with twister money
leaden belfry
reminds me of this saying... "the only difference between men and boys, is the prize of their toys" 😂
@bright tundra Agreed. but though flawed, it works better than just leaving it random
it does invite rerolling though, just to get the stats up, which is also a bad thing
bright tundra
That’s good for business though.
silver vapor
Any measurement metric that encourages padding or rerolling is a bad metric
bright tundra
- from what I can tell, as with previous years, 2019 qualifying format is pretty much “one size fits all”. In a very densely populated server (Ru) the system works quite well because that’s the scale for which it was developed. On NA and EU the scale seems to have worked in such a way that a the redemptive element of a two week pre qualifying tournament didn’t quite work. I hazard to think how it is in Asia. I would suggest a Rating based tournament system in conjunction with double elimination. Such a system would have, for instance, rewarded L1T for their respectable results vs EU’s most elite clans.
silver vapor
Rating battles created it's own specific metric for mm, then why can't tournament receive the same thing?
Make it sort of like it resets every year after twister cup, and uses QT for metric gain or loss, den uses that for seeding in tournaments like these
bright tundra
Two week pre-qualifying to establish rating (clans required to play in sufficient amt of tourneys) + a last chance seeded weekend tournament to get final 8 (give the top 2 teams from pre-q automatic final 8 spots).
I am surprised to see the tournament switches from Bo3 (ascent) to Bo7 (Pro/challenger). Not a logical leap.
@leaden belfry @winter swallow I watched today’s steams. Gj to you both for such dedicated coverage, esp of the late night Na Stuff.
Good luck to all teams as well. 🤙
leaden belfry
thank you =) Always great fun to do. Utterly exhausted now though 😂
winter swallow
Thanks @bright tundra o7 -
narrow meteor
Yeah I understand that this is one of the best ways to do a tourney, but it’s not like our team can really change our WR to get paired up with other teams instead of RGN 1 and 2. It only took one bad game from us to take us out of the 8 spots yet other teams were more fortunate
green plover
Good games to all teams, streams were also fantastic and entertaining to watch and goodluck to the top 8 teams in professional. 🙂
dim pivot
So is there gonna be a last chance tournament for any of the servers?
faint scaffoldBOT
jr#8115 has been warned.
vital obsidian
There is a last chance tour on eu but it seem to be a tour for anyone interested, not only for top and middle echelon clans.
floral python
there is last chance in NA but it gives like 55 for first place so wont really make a difference, also, every regions leaderboards are updated besides NA, just an fyi
green plover
@floral python it will be updated later today
floral python
@green plover thx
forest matrix
@winter swallow thanks :)
@fringe galleon thanks I just had the correction in the new table
- for better accuracy I used the number of earned cups instead of ranking for computing the "difficulty of tickets" rating. Makes it even more accurate and meaningful
this is just crazy how unfair it is honestly. Cause of seeding -1- or APA had like nothing to do to go to challenger while some others (L1T KRK-S) had to play top echelon level from 1/4 final on
@chilly terrace considering all top echelon teams will not send a second team in challengers (I doubt any will actually send a team) could we imagine getting back some clans in the challengers tournament to mitigate this seeding effect?
velvet dome
for the professional tournament, the WR of the team wont affect which teams you face or will it? i mean in the end, we will have to fight all the teams yes?
thorn shale
Yeah you will play against every team once and get points or cups or whatever @velvet dome Based on those points top 4 is being determined and in the first games of the finals top 1 will play against top 4 and top 3 vs top 2 since its the strongest vs weakest format based on the points of the round robin, not on the wr
velvet dome
owo ok thanks. also i saw that top 3 teams can send their clan logo to WG within a set time frame so that they could change it
echo wagon
Pls tell w1n and nav1n to not take Part in Last Chance 🙏
Thats the Ticket for l1t to get in Middle Middle echolon
silver vapor
@velvet dome first you'll need to get into top 4
Then win at least 1 match in top 4 to secure top 3. Den it's clan logo profit time
velvet dome
ya i know, taking it 1 step at a time
half urchin
is last chance tournament for every clan in top 8? and does is take part tonight?
vital obsidian
seem anyone can enter last chance and yes it is tonight
or maybe wg will start kick out registered teams which not in top 16 🤔
btw why is the tour for 256 teams if only about 16 should be able to compete according to rules 🤔
lone crown
yes, apparently any team can participate in the last chance tournament, but the reward for ranking in the pantheon, is limited to 49 cuts for first place, if I'm not mistaken
forest matrix
I am quite sure I read here rexy saying that this tournament would only take place in case of tied teams (occurs) and would only see those teams battling each against the other (cause if anybody can play there is a chance that the tied teams end up with the same result and thus are still tied after the tournament!!)
So I'd bet all teams but W1N and NAV1N will be withdrawn from it
vital obsidian
Would be nice to get confirmation on that
echo wagon
Have w1n and nav1n to take Part? @forest matrix
forest matrix
not for the time being I think (lolly part of it)
NAV1N actually applied to registration - not fully registered yet
echo wagon
No 😥
vital obsidian
So if W1N and Nav1n play vs each other -1- will be pushed out; if they not play -1- will keep their top8 pos and pro tour will have 9 teams instead of 8
And if they play also L1T will be pushed out from top 16
forest matrix
Yes I take this for sure (it is the intent)
vital obsidian
Yea cause logistics is much more complicated if 9 teams in tour
gentle sierra
I m pretty sure w1n and nav1n have to play each other in the first round
forest matrix
I quote rexy last Tuesday :
This tournament will be held if some clans in Top or/and Middle Echelon will be on the same place, otherwise this tournament will be cancelled. Only these clan which will be placed in Top or Middle Echelon will be able to participate in Last Chance tournament. **The seeding will be organize by this way that clans which have the same amount of cups will fight at the first round. **The amount of cups will help to win any clan with the same amount of cups, but this amount won't allow you to get round the clan with bigger amount of cups.
formal jetty
Are we and NAV1N the only teams with the same amount of cups?
echo wagon
Yes @formal jetty
forest matrix
yes in EU top and mid echelon
waxen otter
Nav1n and w1n does take part in last chance? Oh no
chilly terrace
@vital obsidian Yes, only best result is counted.
@forest matrix In any tournament some teams face against favorites in early rounds. Unfortunately, it happens. Every big tournament we face some players which don't agree with system and count it unfair. We don't count current system unfair. Maybe this system has some disadvantages, but generally it works well.
@echo wagon And we'll exclude L1T from leaderboard in this case due breaking regulations.
echo wagon
And we? What do you mean?
median mason
I just checked the leaderboard and I see no chance for L1T to qualify to the middle echelon
vital obsidian
@chilly terrace can any top 16 clan play in the last chance or is it only for w1n vs navin
echo wagon
@chilly terrace the System is fair? Pls explain that to me.
chilly terrace
@vital obsidian Any clan from top-16 can participate, but clans which are placed on the same place will be play against each other in the first rounds.
echo wagon
How can a System where your rank is decided by Overall wr and not by skill in CW fair?
vital obsidian
Tx 👍
forest matrix
@chilly terrace thanks for having a look but sry you count it as fair while I demonstrated it wasn't. Or at least with huge side effects that you can't just erase like this.
Please take some time discussing the matter on Monday cause I spent some time setting up the demonstration based on facts and figures.... and I feel a bit frustrated receiving such a feedback.
lone crown
this based on winrate can quickly have these limits, for example with rerolls created especially for tournaments.
echo wagon
Not only you @forest matrix
I will Support you in your fight for fair tournaments
waxen otter
-1- had it super easy
silver vapor
WR does not account for your team ability in a tournament scene. anyone who have watched FEAST vs -ID- at last Twister Cup Online Finals will agree with it.
echo wagon
We won against r2k, -1-, gneis (3 Times 2-0), immor and we are below them...this is your Definition of fair?
waxen otter
VeRy FaIr
lone crown
this is a hypothesis of reflection, why not try a draw for tournaments completely random, without relying on the winrate. Like this everyone has a fair chance at startup.
gentle sierra
Cause you might have strong teams against each other and weak teams against other
silver vapor
^^^
the issue with the current system is that it's "Not fair enough" for some teams that got heavily disadvantaged by the seedings.
gentle sierra
System worked for top 8 but not that much for top 16 on eu at least
chilly terrace
@echo wagon @forest matrix Teams in spreadsheet didn't get top-16, because they couldn't win important matches. That's it. If anyone says, that his team is strong, he must be ready to prove it.
@lone crown Let me see at least one example in past tournaments, where "rerolling" helped team to win
echo wagon
😂 to be in the 16 you have to win against the best team in the world 😂 😂
waxen otter
Oh l1t has only beaten r2k, -1- etc. so not worth to get in top 16.
Why not make tournament based on dmg/tier or sth like this.
reef trail
@chilly terrace it is not a matter of getting bad luck and facing favourites. It is a matter of how matches are populated.
We do not like to reroll, we play old accounts, and we privilege current performance to carreer statistics.
The current system send our players versus top European teams right of the bat most of the case. This is a fact and not luck related.
Let’s face it, I think we definitely are in the top 16, but the guys will always probably loose vs EG most of the time their first match.
Below stats one of our top team players. Very average carreer stats, but top current performance. Still we are not consider favourite and face big teams directly.
gentle sierra
#bringbackoldsystemwithbo5-bo7infinals
silver vapor
@waxen otter because it still doesn't fix that fact that there will be teams that gets disadvantaged by the fact that you're looking at his "career" stats not recent stats that reflects the player the most
waxen otter
@silver vapor maybe combine it
echo wagon
@chilly terrace in double elemination the strong Teams play against each other and the bad wr Teams, but At the end the team with better CW skill get to the next Stage
silver vapor
oh rite, there is this on the WG official page for stats, why not actually USE THIS THING INSTEAD OF CAREER WR because I spent 10k battles skrubbing and now I have a 62% career wr
reef trail
We are not trolling here. We are trying to make a point based on facts and issues old clans with a track record are facing. Please at least consider it.
lone crown
i agree with you Garbo
thorn shale
Same
echo wagon
@chilly terrace the best Text you could now whrite is: Sry krkn and l1t for your mm in the tournaments. We will dicuss the Problems and next season there will be an imprved System.
silver vapor
^^ lol sad but true
leaden belfry
There is no ideal way of seeding though
This is as close to perfect as it comes
30 day stats isn't an option either, as it's -very- prone to rigging beforehand
echo wagon
Double elemination will fix this Problem @leaden belfry
Do easy
leaden belfry
They have to go with -something-
That's lengthen every tournament with like at least an hour more
What'd solve it is bigger tournaments with more teams so that good teams don't meet the strongest almost instantly
echo wagon
Groups of 4? Best 2 get a Ticket
reef trail
We are just making our point here Ama. We are not just criticising without arguments.
leaden belfry
I know, I'm giving you my thoughts back. I know the system is far from perfect, but with the options there are, strongest weakest is unfortunately the best option there is
chilly terrace
@echo wagon Some team will have to face them anyway.
@reef trail The problem is that you count that you deserve to be in top-16, but the current system is not.
@echo wagon And qualifiers with DE system will be holding for ages.
@silver vapor Because after some time we will see another player who will be upset that CW system based on results in random battles. If we change the system, we will change it in more suitable way.
@reef trail I don't think that you are trolling, I think that you are upset by your defeat and trying to blame the system in it.
echo wagon
@leaden belfry then you have to change the whole System. There are solutions. We are s big Community, we will find the perfect one
leaden belfry
There is no perfect system. There will always be unhappy people and people that feel wronged
I much prefer the old qualifying system, but that was flawed in its own way too
chilly terrace
@echo wagon Thank you for your advice, but we have nothing to apologize for.
gentle sierra
Just make finals for old system be bo5 at least 🤷
echo wagon
@gentle sierra 👍
thorn shale
👍
leaden belfry
I like that the finals have more battles, but I would prefer a 2 round Round Robin at least, and the battles spread over more days to allow more breathing space (and training time)
One thing I do feel WG did -really- well this time around is the map choices for the final stage. The grand finals have maps that aren't used in the finals before it -at all-, and there's very little repetition
gentle sierra
^^ gonna be a tough week
leaden belfry
Playing 7 days out of 9 is, imo, nuts and shouldn't happen
silver vapor
I sleep with Blitz next to me
gentle sierra
With 2 bo7 matches per day 😂
leaden belfry
My weekend so far has been sleep, stream, eat, sleep. It's going to be worse next weekend and the whole week after that 😂
reef trail
@chilly terrace i am not upset no. We have other things to do as well don’t worry for us. We are just stating facts. We ve been in the top 16 in last seasons, and our team was at least as good as the previous ones. We came with numbers to support why we think the mm can be slightly improved. You don’t even want to consider it.
leaden belfry
@gentle sierra but no pressure. If you win 4-0, you've at least 3 matches less to play ;)
gentle sierra
True , but considering how close the competition on eu is dont see that happening often 😂
leaden belfry
Oh don't think so negatively 🙃😂
echo wagon
@chilly terrace make a survey for All twister top 20 Players. Lets See what the Players and Teams Think about your "fair und best" System ever
thorn shale
Yes
gentle sierra
+the closer the match the better it is 👌
green plover
@gentle sierra where is fox and Karol op duo, they will carry LOCA to twister 💪
gentle sierra
Ariana + karol op u mean @green plover
leaden belfry
@gentle sierra for me, as streamer and watcher, I love tiebreakers. The pressure, the beautiful gameplay, more tournament games (instead of replays), it makes the tournament for me.
But I do imagine it's somewhat less fun for the players 🤔😅
green plover
@gentle sierra ah forgot he changed his name
lone crown
@chilly terrace we are not seeking an apology from WG because there is no reason for that. We are just expressing our opinion on the current system. I would just like for my part, that for the next time, the system will improve a little more, and for you to see how you can do that.
gentle sierra
I wouldnt mind it if matches were spread out between more days @leaden belfry
leaden belfry
Yeah, same. I'm lucky I have no life atm and can stream a ton, but oof. And it's worse for you, as you have warming ups and training and tactical meetings and all of that
median mantle
U got eliminated early because of seeding based on wr but u would have lost sooner or later vs those top teams so what’s the point of all of it @lone crown ?
tame shore
Just bring the old system back!
leaden belfry
He means that if he had been seeded against less strong teams at the start they'd have made top 16 easy, @median mantle
Kraken had the bad luck to meet the strongest ones fairly early on in multiple tournaments
Which didn't allow them to get the cups they would have gotten vs other teams
echo wagon
@leaden belfry not only krkn...l1t got the same Teams or stronger teams
thorn shale
Yes
leaden belfry
I know, but I'm using Kraken as example because that's the one WSO is addressing directly
echo wagon
We had the strongest Teams in quartefinals of all top 20 Teams, this is not fair
keen ice
@leaden belfry i sas the one telling on stream Hey sweet😂👌
leaden belfry
@keen ice I saw 😘
median mantle
I can understand the frustration but 1. Who cares about being top 15 th or 17 th 2. What about improving 3. How can they pretend to be a top team if they need an easy matchup to make it top 16? @leaden belfry
echo wagon
@median mantle
leaden belfry
@median mantle I think a lot of people care, as top 16 still has a chance to go to the offline in the EU server
median mantle
Yes and? Don’t pretend u are a top team if u can’t beat another top team @echo wagon
echo wagon
We beat immor, First, gneis, r2k, gneis only won against Teams below rank 20 @median mantle
leaden belfry
They're not saying they're top 4, @median mantle, but that they're top 16. And they have consistently shown that in the past. The system was changed drastically and they're giving their feedback for that
reef trail
U know, we say that for wg. After all having kraken in a tournament adds a bit of glamour and that ‘je ne sais quoi’. We make a tournament sexy, and that s all that matter!
😎😉
gentle sierra
😂
lone crown
@median mantle I do not question the ranking, but the fact is that some have benefited from a qualification directly in the quarter finals, and these are only the big clans, and we played against them every time for two Kraken teams lined up each time, and losing in the 1/4 final did not allow us to have a ticket for Thursday or Saturday.
keen ice
@median mantle I think u dont get it
leaden belfry
I think this wouldn't have been a problem if more teams had registered, and if the tournament wasn't ticketed on thursday and Saturday
I would much prefer a round of tournaments with no tickets, equal amount of cups on all days, and then grabbing the top 8, top 16.
It's the tickets that currently make everything skewed
lunar stirrup
Agree with Amaunet, top 16 still have a chance to go eu offline
echo wagon
@leaden belfry also a good idea
leaden belfry
And most importantly - don't hold other tournaments on the same day, as that just limits the amount of teams you'll get severely
echo wagon
@leaden belfry pls tell wg to make a survey about this topic for all top 20 Players
silver vapor
@leaden belfry I think the thing here is also the fact that there is basically no lower level teams (at least in Asia). you'd only see the contenders joining Ascent
leaden belfry
Asia is a whole other issue because of that, tbh, but in a way, that worked for Asia, as the top 8 consistently met each other and thus consistently got about the same amount of cups
median mantle
Oh i get it really, lots of sport use similar system, 1st worldwide meets 16 th, 2nd meets 15 etc and I don’t see those sportsmen complaining and asking to meet low ranked opponent to have a change to make it through @keen ice
waxen otter
Yes no system is perfect but this is not an excuse to not improve the current system!
silver vapor
@median mantle actually, the first round seeding is totally fine, but the 2nd round onwards it's a bit doodoo imo
leaden belfry
@median mantle that's not what they're doing. They're giving feedback on an imperfect system and asking wg to keep improving it
It's fine if you don't agree with them, but you can be more respectful in voicing it
keen ice
@median mantle if your top 16 and facing other below 20 and 8 of that do that and the other 2 mostly get top 8 then u dont get it
silver vapor
there are a few things that are meh here
- the metric used in seeding
- the imbalance of the overall bracketing (for example the upper half of the bracket is harder than the lower half)
- No DE
serene lynx
Ikr @median mantle, let's just remove the 8-16th team from the tournament, as they might never beat the Top 4 teams and not make it through
leaden belfry
I don't think DE is an option because of the time consuming factor of it >.>
echo wagon
@leaden belfry you could reduce tue time. Groups of 4 and best 2 get Tickets.
silver vapor
@leaden belfry It only adds 1 game worth of time iirc, as in the entire length of the tournament since you can have multiple games going on at the same time
median mantle
If u want lol. imo the difference is slight between complaining and asking for <<improvements>> @leaden belfry tbh i ve always seen krks as a top team, one of the most prominent in Eu, and I m kinda surprised they complain / ask to amend the system because they met teams which they could have beat
leaden belfry
That'd cause many people to have the same amount of cups, @echo wagon
echo wagon
The thursday and saturday tournamenst will Split them @leaden belfry
leaden belfry
@silver vapor even with four teams only, DE would add 2 more games to the table, time wise
But yeah.. I'd much prefer the old qualifying system 😂
Or a mixture of the two
But no ticketed tournaments >.>
viral sigil
I mean the system is better than the last one. you have more chances of groups this way. you can allways have bad luck. If your goal is to get top 16 and you face RA1D in 4 out of 6 groups or so it is unlucky... but better than last year with playing 1 group and get in 2 years 2 times raid lol (imagine plaing 2:2 against then, just lost the more important 2 and they got champion lol)
echo wagon
@median mantle the Problem is: some Top 16 Teams just get no names and Very easy opponents, other get only Top 8 Teams.
@leaden belfry the Old System with bo5 finale
leaden belfry
@median mantle I think you're misinterpreting what they're doing. They're giving feedback, and showing the flaw in the system. They're not telling wg to change anything now or to get them to the top 16. They're just showing where the current system is flawed
waxen otter
@viral sigil lol
leaden belfry
I think that the current system would work perfectly if there was a bigger playerbase for it
I can imagine it working very well in RU
But EU the flaws start showing, and Asia and NA show it very clearly
waxen otter
Single elemination never works fair
silver vapor
@leaden belfry okay maybe I was wrong, then it adds 2 games to any given size of tournaments compared to SE
echo wagon
@leaden belfry next year the playerbase will be smaler, because so many clans are just frustraded
leaden belfry
There'll be new clans
gentle sierra
That 1 extra hour though @silver vapor
silver vapor
not in Asia
leaden belfry
There's been clans that have stopped, and new names that have popped up. So I don't think it'd be smaller, just different
waxen otter
Everyone vs everyone would be the best.
gentle sierra
That takes too long
waxen otter
Nah
leaden belfry
@silver vapor what Baron said. As it is, a full ticketed tournament lasts 2, 2.5 hours. Add another hour onto that...
gentle sierra
1 month qualifiers to determine the "top"teams that will play against each other for 1 week ?
waxen otter
Not much longer. Make 2 leagues. The winner of the leagues fight each other and the winner of that goes to minsk.
leaden belfry
And then there's the people that would get knocked out right before DE kicks in and they'd still find the system unfair
Anyhow, I have to go eat or I'll starve 😂
But no system is perfect, there's no helping that. Feel free to continue this discussion, but please keep it civil and respectful 😘
viral sigil
I guess wg got a good try. they wont sit there like "yeh man hate l1t just put good oponents to them" it is just rly unlucky... but at least we've shown @leaden belfry what we could to against R2K 🙂 (btw... place 3-4 got streamed, the Finals not lol... )
leaden belfry
For sure. They were great matches =)
vital obsidian
I am more concerned will there be big tours in future too than to find out the perfect quali system
median mantle
^^
gentle sierra
There will never be a perfect system
vital obsidian
and i am glad to see in eu there are so many good clans now, much higher level than last year
median mantle
There is no perfect systems but there are well established systems like in tennis where for instance the 1st worldwide meets the 16th, the 2nd meets the 15th etc and I don’t see the 16th logically beaten by the 1st saying that he is actually more like a 8 so should have met the 9 because reasons and concludes that the system is unfair cause he didn’t make it top 8
summer pivot
Let's just copy fifa world cup system and put it into blitz for the next twister
btw , how can I get veteran role
silver vapor
20k battles and 50% wr
summer pivot
yes I have it. how can I ask for it
silver vapor
PM a moderator that is actually active
echo wagon
@median mantle in Tennis its the leaderboard, in wot a winrate From random games. Match After the leaderboars would also be an option
summer pivot
I was with u in CATS clan before I leave asia and went to EU @silver vapor
silver vapor
super old story lol
me in CATS is like almost 4 years ago 🤔 back when stuff happened lmao
summer pivot
miss those days
echo wagon
Options to imrpove the System:
- A double elemination System that dont take to much time
- Use Position on the Clanleaderboard not wr
- Last years System with bo5/7/9 final
- No Ticket tournaments wird random mm
Just my opinion. There will more options but i prefer them.
dim pivot
What clan leaderboard? Just asking
echo wagon
On the wot Portal, Hall of Fame > clans @dim pivot
dim pivot
But thats from ascent tournaments right?
Sry if i m confused but u want seeding according to clan leaderboard for ascent but the leaderboard comes from ascent?
echo wagon
Yea right
dim pivot
The best thing i can think of for mm is 30 days stats- combination of wr ,avg dmg, avg tier and like amaunet said that ppl can rig 30 day stats,but its still a lot better than being punished for not being a pro player right from the start of the game
I have pretty good 30 day stats and only 61% career wr, but this seeding punishes me coz i wasnt a good player right from the start
waxen otter
@vital obsidian in spring season were more ascent tournaments
vital obsidian
Yes but the pro tour clans did not play ascent
waxen otter
Yes so make more ascent tournaments for twister like spring season. And fair team matchups
median mantle
I would be curious to see if a MM based on 30days stats would make any difference @waxen otter i can be wrong but it’s hard to imagine that a team currently ranked 16-20 has better 30 days stats than CARNA, eg, raid etc
half urchin
yeah pls a longer qualifier, cause this one was way to short. i can afffort way more time to play qualifiers (caution, this is sarcasm)
agile depot
so true
thorn shale
When stats are used to compare CW strength
silver vapor
why are stats even used to compare CW strength
forest matrix
More ascent with the same system will result in the same output. The key to solve the issue I highlighted are either to:
. Have more clans involved
. Remove ticket system
. Go in double elimination system
The seeding topic will never be solved in a perfect way. I think it is a side debate not the key one
thorn shale
I think for the top 8 this system was rly good (apart from the time it took). Regarding top 16 im not so much into it
forest matrix
I agree for top 8 identification the system was good. I think we could make the mathematical background of it but basically to identify top 8 having 40 teams involved is ok. But to have a relevant top 16 we should more have like 80 clans involved
Otherwise the seeding system creates huge bias
viscid python
Exactly.
I d like to see sth like this next year :
"I'd suggest a halfway house. Play 6 non-ticketed tournaments with equal cup scorings. Have the last 2 tournaments accessible only to X number of teams that scored over Y number of cups. "
- THE Rollingswarm
forest matrix
It is sad that the only one not interested in our discussion is the WG moderator
gentle sierra
@half urchin 1 month long qualifiers would be better
half urchin
+1
silver vapor
1 month of 4 days every week? holy
gentle sierra
2 weeks 7 days each week last deal
echo wagon
One month with random mm and no Tickets, so you have to be very lucky to have only easy groups.
vital obsidian
@viscid python will you play last chance
lunar stirrup
1 month
viscid python
Most probably, yes. @vital obsidian
vital obsidian
Good then tour does not get cancelled
lunar stirrup
Omg 1 month u crazy... we have a life man
1 month every night (only for qualifiers) toooo much
versed field
Lief*
gentle sierra
Id rather not play at all than have to play for 1 month to qualify 😂
lunar stirrup
over a short period of time we are already struggling to be 7 every night, imagine 1 month x)
thorn shale
Make whole twister qualifying 1 week non ticketed with Bo1
chilly hemlock
@thorn shale that’s next year
thorn shale
Ciao
winter swallow
So who is excited for the Professionals Tournaments???
median mantle
All of us on this channel^^
agile depot
+1
fringe galleon
I am not interested
shell vault
2
gentle sierra
Im playing for the free xp
silver vapor
I'm playing for the clan logo
median mantle
I m watching when I m bored
shell vault
im playing because...yes im playing
viscid python
I m playing for fun 🙃
versed field
I am playing for 🤔, next question.
crude sparrow
hey guys i have problem i play 1 realestic battle and lose that with t34 my tank need repair but 3 melion coin
leaden belfry
@crude sparrow you're in the tournament channel. You need to go to the technical issue channel for your server - #585463961730940929 #585464006936887306 or #585464171349409811
Also, unless that's your actual ign - pls change your nickname. No politics or related are allowed on this server
tribal scroll
Is there a Quick Tournament tonight?
viscid python
Sure is @tribal scroll
rotund jewel
What is going on with the leaderboard on NA? Hasn’t been updated
pallid raven
8 <> 9
tribal scroll
Oh thank you - wasn’t updating on my screen at time
azure tinsel
I'm not Slovakian I'm Slovenian 😉 @strange bough
signal comet
Co kurwa
jaunty talon
last chance tournament 28 teams registration 8 teams play
signal comet
@azure tinsel
azure tinsel
What tournament?