Add In The Neural Network, *But...*

[bold idol]

I'm sure almost everyone knows that one of the main advertisement points of Hello Neighbor 2 was the Neural Network being added to the game. It was one of the prime trailers made to help encourage you to wishlist and pre-order when given the chance. Then right before release, the whole ai thing was removed from the description without notice and it's somewhat clear that the Neural Network isn't in the game. Ais do the same handful of tasks over and over again, only breaking said routine when they see you and try to chase you down. Even then, the moment they grab you or you escape, there's no preparations the ai takes to stop you, they just go back to their normal routine.

The Guest ai seemed to be more smart when I was playing Patch 9 which was a push in the right direction, but that's getting a bit off topic from my main point here. Basically, the main idea of this feedback is to

Make the neural network and put it in the game but do NOT connect it to a big system with all the other players. (at least for now)

Honestly, that feature [the neural system connected to everyone] would be pretty nice to have but it might seem too ambitious. Not to mention that with enough plays, the ai might become too hard to beat for a first time player. That's why I want tB to take it slow and first simply add the neural network. Allow the ais to learn from the player, set up traps, adjust their schedule, not just do the same tasks over and over again. We want the neighbors to feel alive, not like ai that's been programmed to do a few things until they're interrupted.

If the neural network does get added, make sure you also put some restraints on it too. As funny as it would be for Mr. Peterson to put up 100s of cameras in the museum. It'd probably get annoying quickly.

[steel hatch]

Yeah this would be really cool imo

[languid crag]

the only way I see the connection thing working if its a small thing

like the neighbor cutting you off or checking the most logical location

the latter doesnt make too much sense since where he would get that knowledge from?

I do feel like taking a more personalized approach with the AI is a better idea

[lapis jolt]

Definitely.

[bold idol]

I ain't asking for anything big ofc.

[steel hatch]

Also they have made an neural network before apperantly so its not like they cant do it

[sullen horizon]

I agree with the cameras part

I don't want it to be a camera spam like the neighbor did in the first game

[bold idol]

An idea to prevent camera spam is have ai cameras have a radius around it where another one cannot be placed.

[torpid python]

Tinybuild should Hire you fr lmao

[bold idol]

if only. then again id only be able to really playtest and provide feedback. Though imagine if i could be a community manager...

[torpid python]

Your idea is great about the Ai I hope they actually add it and I like the personal learning rather then the Ai learning from everybody

If you became community Manager would be a W

[bold idol]

the chance i get, ill try, BUT thats off topic

i think if they allow for free placement of bear traps, they'll have the same radius prevention. Sorry but no thousands of bear traps blocking the basement for you.

[haughty crescent]

The AI would break if it was connected to every player

[bold idol]

Yeah that's another problem to consider

if it was truly connected to each player, what about mods or something along those lines or people who repeatedly get caught on purpose

[languid crag]

it was probably buggy or it was barely functional

[languid crag]

the beartraps that otto has work pretty alr too I guess

Im just dissapointed that the AI doesnt memorize your favorite spots or routes

[bold idol]

yeah i want that to be added, maybe even chair blocking again. (i know chairs block doors in the dlc, but i mean proper blocking, like ais and quentin himself can break down the door but it'd be loud. (just replace the chairs in the dlc with heavy things blocking the door like a moveable board))

[lapis jolt]

Chair blocking is a planned feature.

[languid crag]

the AI feels kinda basic without the ability to place traps or even memorize stuff

task progression just makes it feel worse

[languid crag]

that seems like something the player can do it

We dont know if the AIs can do it

[bold idol]

imagine an ai blocking themselves in a room with only one entrance using a chair

[haughty crescent]

Yeah

[bold idol]

If they do incorporate the 'ai refering to multiple playthroughs' there better be settings to disable it, like a offline mode.

[haughty crescent]

yeah

I would think a sign in feature would be nice

On that account the AI would remember your movements

[bold idol]

I mean

If memory serves correctly, I could have sworn I heard in here that HN2 was going to get cloud saving in a update?

The neural network could save to the cloud, like two saves

[haughty crescent]

Yeah

[haughty crescent]

i heard that too

[bold idol]

One progress, another the 'intelligence' of the ai.

[haughty crescent]

The neighbor learned from your break in's in HN1 iirc

[steel hatch]

Yeah but it was with key points it Didnt actually learn

[haughty crescent]

yeah true

[bold idol]

Yeah it learned by focusing on the doors and windows.

not actually like taking measures in a room to keep you out

[haughty crescent]

yeah

[bold idol]

Imagine if there could be 'toggleable' states of rooms

this may be a bit far out there, but imagine if you keep getting caught, the ai could rearrange the room you constantly go into, making it harder to get what you're going for and possibly make it easier to get into deadends (like by moving bookshelfs or stuff on the ground.)

It's just an idea and i'm not sure how exactly it'd be executed

[haughty crescent]

That would be cool. But I think it would take awhile

Patch 15 type shit

[bold idol]

Yeah, this stuff would take a while but imagine the gameplay with it. More replay value = more reason to play = happier community

[steel hatch]

I wonder how the current guest ai would be with a nn implemented

[haughty crescent]

Fr

That’s true

Ted boarding up windows would be a cool task

[bold idol]

Oh I already have a scenario planned out for that actually, can write it here.

[haughty crescent]

Remove the board locking the garage so he can work on his car.

And remove the gear in his car

His car shouldn’t be a puzzle

[bold idol]

So Quentin has his boards in the cart right, hops inside and begins to go forward expecting a somewhat smooth ride. Guest tries to reach him but cannot due to the speed of the cart. Suddenly, Guest rushes off into the forest and the game goes quiet.

When the player begins to reach the next checkpoint, suddenly The Guest rushes out of the left side of the forest and lunges straight for Quentin, knocking him out of the cart and grabbing him.

So instead of simply trying to chase down the cart, the guest rushes ahead and planned a ambush

[steel hatch]

I really Think you should be a playtester seriously lol

[haughty crescent]

Now that’s peak

[bold idol]

im imagining it and that would scare the heck out of me if that happened in the game.

[haughty crescent]

I don’t like how the guest teleports around the forest

[steel hatch]

I Think some People misunderstand what a neural network actually is because they Think its just a thing that makes the ai learn from Everybody when in reality its a thing that makes the ai learn at all at least in an advanced way

[bold idol]

or or imagine this.

So imagine you're Quentin, you have a cart full of boards waiting for you outside the church so you could get up to the bell right? The Guest tries to reapetedly break in but the doors wouldn't break down. The banging stops and you hear footsteps going towards your cart...and the sound of it beginning to move.

The Guest, to try and get you outside so he can get you, actively pushed your cart into motion. Actually thinking instead of repeatedly trying to get through a door.

[ionic juniper]

I dont see how the guest teleporting is really that big of a problem
You cant see it
And the forest is so large that if he didnt teleport he would probably just get stuck or lost

[steel hatch]

Btw skymastr did you know theres evidence they actually did make a neural network once back in hello guest

[ionic juniper]

Yea

[steel hatch]

Problaby broken or unfinshed

[haughty crescent]

I mean if the guest AI gets smart enough he probably won’t need to teleport

[steel hatch]

I mean the teleporting adds to the supernatrual feeling tbf

[bold idol]

I never noticed the teleporting myself, not to say that they never did it

[sick ledge]

If this was finally added to the stream version just imagine how long it would take to add to consoles especially Nintendo Switch that’s still on patch 3

Not to mention the game would have to be connected to the Internet to play

[bold idol]

Neural Network itself isn't online.

It may say 'network' but it's what allows ai to learn, and can be done on a offline game. Like HN1.

[steel hatch]

Btw imbir kinda unrelated but how do you think it would be if someone from hng worked on hn2 like a fan experienced in game design

It would be good imo

[bold idol]

I mean it would be interesting, but a lot of trust would have to be established ofc. i personally wish i could but im just making feedback in the server

[steel hatch]

I mean if you’re over 18 and experienced with unreal engine I think it’s possible one day?

[bold idol]

i mean i use unreal engine. not experienced, but id love to playtest and maybe be a community manager. I could still do what i love that way if im right, provide feedback

[inland ferry]

chaotic

[steel hatch]

If I did the game would be over in a day

[inland ferry]

AND IT WILL BE DOGSHIT

[steel hatch]

True

[lapis jolt]

I mean, nothing very special would happen.

[steel hatch]

How do you even become a community manager for tinybuild?

[bold idol]

if i recall they had signups but those are closed..

i dont want to focus too long on the subject as my feedback may get locked, i know it doesnt mean it's automatically rejected but i like discussing my ideas with the community

[steel hatch]

Anyways do we know how the current ai is like programmed?

[languid crag]

it would probably suck seeing how Ive seen hello neighbor fans have a lot of awful ideas.

[steel hatch]

I’m talking fans like kokosko and aidan and imbir

[languid crag]

idk then

[steel hatch]

Anyways advanced cool shit right here

[bold idol]

if i had to take a guess its simple...when it comes to ai term of being 'simple'

since they always focus on the same couple tasks until they see you and start to chase you down

the guest might be different

[steel hatch]

Yeah neural networks is far more advanced

It’s coded to be like an brain

[steel hatch]

Pretty sure if their gonna add a neural network they would need to make a new ai core and then copy and paste the animations and all the different behavior stuff

I’m not sure how it works

[bold idol]

i dont really expect this to be simply dropped in a patch if im honest, might be its own update if it does get re-added

[steel hatch]

Yes probably not in the near future if it ever happens

[bold idol]

now im imagining consoles complaining if pc players get it first

maybe this update should be given console parity (to be exact, all consoles get it at once)

[steel hatch]

Yeah

[bold idol]

probably should allow playtesting though

dont want the ai to start freaking out

[steel hatch]

If they add a nn ai the npcs are gonna basically be digital robots that can actually think

So it’s not just gonna be back and forth through tasks and the same behavior over and over

[sick ledge]

Adam probably be proud that the thing that he was advertising actually came true

Or not idk what he does nowadays

When he’s not working

But you know it’s not my business

[haughty crescent]

Fr

No more false advertising

[steel hatch]

Tbh while The guest ai in patch 9 was good it feels imo too basic currently run catch jump and break boards that’s pretty much it

[haughty crescent]

Yeah and apparently Ted in a test build could put boards back on doors

That would be a cool feature

Would be a cool to add the hammer so he has to use the hammer to put the boards back on

[bold idol]

Yeah! That's a good idea, and if people are tired of him doing that? they'll have to do a puzzle to get to the hammer and get rid of it. Like the Beta Wrench puzzle.

the reason I'd say it'd be like the beta wrench puzzle is that i'd imagine a lot of players would just immendiately go for the hammer and throw it out of the museum

[steel hatch]

Imbir What do you think of the guest ai in the full game?

Do you think it’s smart

[bold idol]

It caught me off more than the normal ai, and i thought it was pretty nice...until the church door incident happened-

[steel hatch]

I got an idea for a separate feedback if you wanna hear?

[bold idol]

sure

[steel hatch]

Wait got a better idea an feedback on how to implement the guest into act 1 would be cool if you would want to make one in the future it actually it’s been done to death so nah

[bold idol]

i actually had some ideas for how to do it, and it'd make the nightmare scenarios more unique.

[steel hatch]

Oh well then

Go for it

[sick ledge]

Imagine we got like nightmare, sequences like the pre-alpha to Hello Neighbor 1

But at that point it would just feel like Hello Neighbor 1 with its nightmare sequences

Still be interesting though

[bold idol]

i'll write the feedback in a bit

[bold idol]

https://discord.com/channels/474299944254308373/1222314391504945262

[haughty crescent]

Yes!

[bold idol]

...i think there's another feedback post idea-

[toxic forge]

i usually heavily dislike "add neural network" suggestiosn but props to you actually thinking this one out and being reasonable

[bold idol]

I tried to be realistic here cause, as my nickname suggests, I'm a developer so I know a bit about the hardships of making a game. As such I believe that it'd be best for the team to take it small.

i'm glad I was able to make you like my feedback though, encourages me to write more.

[toxic forge]

From one developer to another: I FEEL you lmao

[steel hatch]

Oh 40 likes nice

[spare sky]

that was the original idea for hn1 in the failed kickstarter

[spare sky]

pretty basic and dumb at first but will develop tactics as you progress

[spare sky]

not that complicated its pretty easy to understand at the beginning there are input arrays that pass the initial value to the hidden layers (usually a couple thousands at least) then with a certain policy a processing of the input data happens and some guessing if there is still data to be resolved then finally the processed data moves on to the output arrays and then goes to whatever agent it needs to (in hn2 case agent means the neighbor AI) then rinse and repeat.

[steel hatch]

Would they need to remake the ai to add a neural network in your opinion Ik they very likely won’t but I’m just wondering

[spare sky]

the level of complexity isnt even near to a human brain. its closer to a mosquito to be honest.

[spare sky]

the current AI system is trash and uses some UE4 default garbage. to add a neural network they can use the current AI system as a base while the neural network watches from behind the scenes. then when the neural network reached a certain pre determined threshold then the fun will begin and the neural network will take action.

[steel hatch]

True it’s super basic currently

[spare sky]

but thats just one way to do it there are more options

[steel hatch]

Why does the alpha 1.5 ai feel smarter to me

[spare sky]

it is, its like the hn1 alpha 1 AI but with more advanced options. its still hard coded like theres no real thinking going on its if something happens then do this. they just did it in a smooth way to make it look smart

if you like all of this AI stuff i really recommend you learn neural networks too its a headache at the beginning but once you get it it can be really interesting

[steel hatch]

Ik they said their are currently no plans to add neural network to hn2 but I think it would be really cool tbh if executed well

[spare sky]

they are just liers at this point. too bad cuz i was really excited for this game

[steel hatch]

Meh I think If they were they wouldn’t continue to update the game like this

Maybe 5 patches then they wouldn’t have updated it more if they didn’t care

[spare sky]

still they kinda were forced to update because to be real with you the truth is that when the game launched it felt like a beta rather than a full release

[steel hatch]

It was a beta tbh

I wouldn’t call it a full game

[spare sky]

yeah that what i was saying. im still sad this is how the game turned out. but listen i randomly stumbled across this game on steam called kagidoko. it looks like a short horror game that uses a real neural network

it looks very interesting

[steel hatch]

Yeah but I do think their trying to fix their mistakes as much as they can

[spare sky]

the best thing they can do is add the main selling points they promised. the damage was already done.

i really really hope that if we push the devs enough like that on the discord and other platforms they will add at least half of the stuff they promised

[steel hatch]

I mean tbf they definitely know that people was pissed and disappointed

That’s why they refuse to show anything now early to not set false expectations again

[spare sky]

that wasnt just false expectations those were promises. not just a maybe or we will think about adding or we will expiriment and if its good we will consider adding it they stated it as a fact that they are adding all of those features

[steel hatch]

They absolutely was promises but according to the community manager the game development was basically hell

They really did think they could add the stuff

[spare sky]

any developing process of anything can become a living hell if you dont do it right. thats their fault

[steel hatch]

I wouldn’t say being stuck in a war zone is their fault

A lot of the employers was in Ukraine when the game developed

[spare sky]

i get if it was a tiny studio that didnt know anything and developed their first ever game but they were already very well experienced and the publisher tinybuild should have kept more of an eye out on the development process

[spare sky]

yeah the stuff thats happening there is terrible no arguing on that but they can always say that they have to delay the release.

[steel hatch]

True but that’s tinybuild fault not eerie guests

I agree being angry at tinybuild because they should have handled the marketing situation way better then they did no arguing in that

[spare sky]

its both parties fault. the dev studio eerie guest or dynamic pixels whatever you want to call them for not managing time and resources correctly and tinybuilds fault for not giving a damn for what their dev studios are doing

[spare sky]

agreed

and at this point dynamic pixels was purchased by tinybuild so there is zero excuse for what happened. tinybuild practically had almost full control on the development process

[steel hatch]

To their credit they did help relocate the employees to a safer place which is a super nice act to do regardless how they handled hn2

[spare sky]

it is and it shouldnt be taken for granted but the game still turned out how it is

[steel hatch]

Yep and hopefully they can fix it as much as possible

Because believe me I was beyond disappointed in the game

[spare sky]

but still really respect what tinybuild did for their employees safety not a lot of studios would have did this

[steel hatch]

Yeah

Can We talk in another feedback about non linearity quickly

[spare sky]

at this point i think it would be better to decompile the game completely to patch it with a custom neural network

[spare sky]

yeah

which feedback though

[steel hatch]

https://discord.com/channels/474299944254308373/1136986145775964170