AI Task Progression Rework

[timid sierra]

It's no secret by now that a lot of people dislike the way the AI's routines and lives are handled in HN2. However, the way I see it, the root of the problem is not the system itself - its the way it is executed inside of the game. As it stands right now, in combination with the player's ability to rush houses, AIs will likely only ever be able to do a limited number of tasks before players finish a house.

To that end, AIs should have a less rigid task progression. Instead of the current way it works, AI routines should be mostly random, but after certain objectives they have tasks they are garunteed to go do first before returning to their randomized tasks. The tasks they go do are entirely based on how exactly the player is progressing through the house - for example, the task Gerda goes do will be different if the player starts with the 1 button over the 5 button, for example.

Also, at certain parts of the day, the AI "favors" certain tasks, making them more likely to go and do them. The tasks in general need to be more dynamic and interesting, and in general, there needs to be more of them. (This suggestion has incredible ideas for things in that regard: https://discord.com/channels/474299944254308373/1172134290218287176 .)

TL;DR - The concept is good, but the execution has many holes in its design that are exacerbated by the other holes the game has in its design. Fix em.

[smoky crow]

Yes i liked!

[muted rock]

I dont really think this is a good idea

[timid sierra]

Twisted Egg, here's the long and short of it

[muted rock]

The current system is bad but this isnt much better

It still makes the AIs behavior predictable

Instead of always doing the same 2 tasks all it does is add a small chance they might do something else

Still making it easy for the player to avoid the AI

[timid sierra]

If you want the AI to have FULLY dynamic routines, you'd have to completely restructure the way the game handles the passage of time in relation to the gameplay AND the narrative
Since the game only has you going to the AIs houses during the day, and time only passes in the day once you complete certain objectives, this creates a fundamental issue with having fully dynamic routines

There are a LOT of other systems and things about the you'd need to rework to get rid of the system completely

Too many things

So there has to be some sort of middleground compromise between structure and dynamics

[muted rock]

Im just saying this compromise doesnt fix the issue of the AI being predictable and easy to exploit

You just added a small chance of the AI MAYBE doing something else

Even tho most of the time its gonna camp a certain floor or room

The only way I could see this working if the routine was diffrent on each playthrough

Forcing the player to adapt

So instead of always prioritizing one area they could catch player off guard by doing diffrent things on diffrent playthroughs

[timid sierra]

Here's the thing: I think a bit of predictability is good, as the whole point of HN2's core game design is meant to be observation and strategy. There needs to be a push and pull between predictability and randomness, linearity and dynamics, to both feel familiar to repeat playthroughs while also forcing the player to be on their toes and observant at all times

It's not a black and white thing, which is why it's so hard to suggest a solution for.

[muted rock]

Predictability kills the replay value

I feel like for this to work there would need to be some amount of randomness

Maybe have like 5 pre made routines that get swapped out as the game progresses. And the player has to observe the AI to tell what its doing

[idle thunder]

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[muted rock]

The way the system works rn and the way you suggested it should work makes it so a player never has to repeat that process ever again and can just avoid the AI without being seen on replays

The AI being easy to ignore was a big issue with hn1.

The task progression system helps with this because if Keith is always gonna be upstairs then you can easily find a way to exploit that

[idle thunder]

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[timid sierra]

HN1's issue was that it was TOO dynamic. Too much space, too many options, too many places to hide and run, too many ways to completely ignore and breeze past the AI, and there was nothing the AI could do about it because the game let you do whatever you wanted.

HN2 tried to rectify this by making the game linear, but did it to a fault. HOWEVER, I do think there is a significantly stronger foundation built here than HN1 lol

[muted rock]

Im just saying the way you suggested this doesnt fix the main issue of task progression

[timid sierra]

I think that it's a start

Sorry for going on a longer winded rant lol

To be honest, I do have a much more radical idea, but I deliberately wanted to make this suggestion more moderate

I don't know how willing EGS are to really dive deep into the core of the game and change things.

[muted rock]

This "moderate" sugfestion doesnt really fix anything at all

It still keeps the main issue with the AI

Just because its a little less bad doesnt mean it isnt still bad

My main issue with task progression is that kills the replay value and overall feels very unfun to play against

The houses are smaller than in hn1 so the issues with hn1 is they designed the house for parkour and stuff instead of the AI

The houses being smaller would work perfect with the AI always being nearby

But having the AIs focus on a small part of the house kinda messes that up

[timid sierra]

A more radical suggestion I have is this
AI routines are mostly random, but after certain objectives they have tasks they are garunteed to go do first before returning to their randomized tasks, and the objectives they go do are entirely based on how exactly the player is progressing through the house. The task Gerda goes do will be different if the player starts with the 1 button over the 5 button, for example. Also, at certain parts of the day, the AI "favors" certain tasks, making them more likely to go and do them.

[muted rock]

The reason why the guest AI works is because you cant avoid it. You are gonna have to sneak around the guest. In the base game you can just run around the house and not worry about it

[timid sierra]

For example: At the start of the bakery level, Gerda favors baking, and baking would be a more complex series of tasks. However, she can still break out of the baking and go do other things if the AI decides upon it, she is not limited to the first floor of the house.

[muted rock]

This suggestion actually seems to make an actual impact on the gameplay

This actually seems to be decent

I feel like the gameplay in act 1 needs drastic changes

I just dont find act 1 to be fun

[timid sierra]

There's another thing to be done with the AI that would make this system tie together, and that's a rework of the AI's senses and hunt mode and stuff...

The way it works now is a little not great

[muted rock]

The forest was a step in the right direction

[timid sierra]

But I feel like that's a bit off topic for this suggestion? So I don't know if I want to talk about it here.

[muted rock]

Thats an understatement

[timid sierra]

The thing I've noticed about HN2's AI updates is that they've given it a whole bunch of features but the features are implemented as part of a broken AI system

So the features aren't working to their full potential

Despite them being good features

[timid sierra]

I defiently think the more complex interactions and tasks that Imbir suggested in their feedback will GREATLY improve this as well

I should probably edit the main post of this suggestion so that any dev that looks at this can see the updated feedback

Updated the post.

[lone kindle]

I like this, at night the AI's may go to sleep much more often and for longer periods of time.

[timid sierra]

Bump