so how'd our boy spark survive?
#lore-and-universe
faint stone
west silo
Transfered himself into a ship
faint stone
surely there'd be a material that was used for the cryptum
gilded mason
@terse lava
Ye, got all the books. Whatcha need?
west silo
Chief should have aimed for the head
faint stone
that would make you immune to the halo's blast
terse lava
@gilded mason the part in Renegade where the librarian was telling Chakas if the current fate of his friends. Something about asleep and at peace
west silo
And bastion
gilded mason
I’ll check...after dinner.
terse lava
No hurry
west silo
Question the matriarch are forerunner ai hiveminds right?
karmic hemlock
O.o
Why go ultra mega death when the flood only needs meat bags with a central nervous system to eat?
gilded mason
@terse lava
“You did the same.” To me.
“For the greater good.”
“The greater good is merely an excuse for the strong to make decisions for the weak.”
She doesn’t answer me; she sees that this is an argument neither one of us will win. My ire deflates.
“Are they?” I question her words. “At peace?”
“They were left to live out their lives in peace, their gene song quiet.”
“They are remembered in the Domain. Send me there. Give me access so that my memory may join them.” I am pleading. The words coming out of me are crushing. I will give up everything to be among them.
“They are only echoes now, Chakas,” she tells me. “Experience remembered through the eyes of my kind, nothing more. You are not meant to relive the past, to dwell in the halls of living memory.” She shakes her head. “Where you wish to go, the bad lives alongside the good.”```Thanks
gilded mason
👍
terse lava
Curious that they are only echos in the domain, not even essences
west silo
So there gone gone
gilded mason
Seems so
west silo
Halo did do a number to number to
terse lava
I...dont know, cryptum implied humans may have made their own separate place in the domain
I have since then figured all races are brought into the domain on death
gilded mason
Warfleet implies that you have to actively do so
terse lava
That could be be solely for the forerunners, as old abby was actually helping them in their younger eras
west silo
I thought it was the domain doing that or is abbadon the domain
terse lava
Abbadon appears to at least be overall in charge of the domain
Or at least, the domain appears to be a part of him
dense pulsar
Would it be possible to make the Matrix in the Halo universe?
west silo
Man its strange to think that he was the one sending warnings to the forerunners
Would it be possible to make the Matrix in the Halo universe?
@dense pulsar
Maybe if they were stupid enough?
terse lava
Kinda makes sense, he did help early forerunners
dense pulsar
Wdym by that?@west silo
For the Created it would make sense. They get to keep organic life in a perfect, ideal dream world while also still lording over them in that same world
dense pulsar
I don't mean literally recreate every aspect of the Matrix in the Halo universe
Just the actual construct of the Matrix
west silo
The tech might exist
karmic hemlock
to me, all the forerunners had were fancy toys, and thought that gave them the right to play god.
west silo
Well we're they wrong
karmic hemlock
saying "for the greater good" is just an excuse for someone to try to feel better about the crap they pull
west silo
If I could create planets I would have a big ego too
karmic hemlock
if they could create planets why didnt they simply abandon the milky way galaxy as a whole and leave it to the flood
west silo
saying "for the greater good" is just an excuse for someone to try to feel better about the crap they pull
@karmic hemlock
Well they did have murder everyone for the greater good
karmic hemlock
if you can punt a great big flippin ring into slipspace, you can jump pretty far
dense pulsar
Because the Flood had all of the combined knowledge of their race
west silo
if they could create planets why didnt they simply abandon the milky way galaxy as a whole and leave it to the flood
@karmic hemlock
The flood would have followed and remember there civilization is in the milky way
dense pulsar
It was pretty dire for the Forerunners
karmic hemlock
explain to me like you would an ignorant
what makes the flood so unstoppable
they dont stop
and they are intellgent
west silo
They can destroy entire star systems and shutdown forerunner tech
karmic hemlock
dont get me wrong i am aware how smart a gestalt being like a gravemind is supposed to be in the lore
dense pulsar
Because they steal your knowledge and raise the dead
For every battle you lose, they gain manpower
west silo
Oh did I mention they can turn an entire planet into a keymind in mere hours
Oh and they can make all ur ais work for them something a franchise like halo is very known for
dense pulsar
It doesn't take them very long to infect a planet either
going off whats stated in 3, a single spore can DESTROY a planet
west silo
In 3 they would have infected the entire planet in less than a day
As in hours
They infected an entire forerunner planet of 200 billion in only 2 days
karmic hemlock
what im getting is the flood's greatest asset is the ability to turn your strength against you
west silo
No it's there precursor stuff
karmic hemlock
O.o
dense pulsar
Maybe when they first appeared
west silo
Forerunner tech is good. precursor tech is better
dense pulsar
In the actual games, it doesn't seem like there's precursor stuff around
craggy sierra
God basically
west silo
Am holding
karmic hemlock
i think i need another beer for this explanation
craggy sierra
I prefer to pretend they don’t exist because they throw a massive wrench into the power scaling of Halo’s universe
And that is about the best explanation I can give.
karmic hemlock
just trying to wrap my brain around this. there's a lot of deus ex machina floating around
craggy sierra
They literally made humanity, the forerunners, planets, civilizations. They’re god basically. And it’d dumb.
karmic hemlock
its okay tho. got my liquid courage
west silo
The precursors are basically the gods of halo
dense pulsar
Yea
They made humans and the forerunners
But somehow the Forerunners murdered them
craggy sierra
Good
karmic hemlock
my respect for the franchise took a nosedive. i detest so-called "god entities" in fiction, they are NEVER written well
dense pulsar
Has the UNSC studied Forerunner AIs?
karmic hemlock
and they are ALWAYS gone by the time the story plays out
dense pulsar
Cause it seems like they would be way more effective
Takes way longer for them to go rampant
craggy sierra
Like I said, I pretend they don’t exist
karmic hemlock
from my knowledge, a Contender-class AI like Mendicant Bias is leagues of magnitude more powerful than cortana
west silo
Yes
west silo
And a precursor ai can make u turn to dust just by looking at u
karmic hemlock
actually, never got a chance to play halo 5
craggy sierra
Just focus on the here and now when it comes to Halo. Digging too far into the history can make you start losing respect for the universe as the power scale of everything goes out of complete wack and it begins giving off the vibe none of the elements you enjoy about the Halo universe matter. Which is the last thing any universe ever wants to do.
gilded mason
Yeh
west silo
Thats basically saying ignore all the background lore
terse lava
I always happily dive into any covenant history. Never any mistakes in that
karmic hemlock
what was the kooky one in that game?
craggy sierra
I mean the precursors are never coming back so there’s not much to do with them besides ignore them
west silo
Covenant lore is great
terse lava
Always will be
craggy sierra
And you just stated the exact reason why they will never come back
And a precursor ai can make u turn to dust just by looking at u
dense pulsar
The prophets were great because they were leaders of a political faction
I don't even know what the Didact's goal was
karmic hemlock
politics and religion never mixes well
dense pulsar
A vague "take over the galaxy"
karmic hemlock
case in point
terse lava
To compose humanity and return the mantle to the forerunners
west silo
U can still give them lore without putting them in the main story
That what side stories are for
The forerunner trilogy itself is basically one magnificent side story
karmic hemlock
when i played halo 4, "return the mantle" always seemed to just be an excuse. felt there was nothing but genuine hate from the didact
craggy sierra
Besides another thing to consider is that pretty much no one alive at the current point of Halo lore even has any understanding for any of the ancient precursor malarky.
west silo
Oni does
west silo
Well they did till spark killed them
terse lava
Well no one cares about ONI
west silo
And oni has found ancient human ship
craggy sierra
That’s forerunner era, not precursor era.
craggy sierra
Forerunners were around for many many years after they won their fight against them.
west silo
Nope
terse lava
Nope?
west silo
The precursors made the galaxy
craggy sierra
And?
humble yacht
The precursors seeded multiple galaxies with life
Doesn’t mean they made the galaxies themselves
karmic hemlock
trying to wrap my brain around it. the precursor lore makes sense... to a point. i just dont like the power scaling.
maybe its not forerunner tech at all. maybe its all just precursor tech given to the forerunners, and then stolen after they managed to kill the precursors
terse lava
We know they can move stars and galaxies, bit are never shown it
west silo
Well they made a bunch of galaxies and then settled in ours
humble yacht
They didn’t make galaxies
west silo
Yes there described as shaping galaxies
karmic hemlock
ugh, this is making my head hurt
craggy sierra
Spartan even if what you’re saying was correct, it’s basically a list of all the reasons why precursors are dumb on a conceptual level.
terse lava
No, they could move galaxies
humble yacht
Changing something is not the same as making it
Like, humans could strap a bunch of rockets to the moon and move it
karmic hemlock
so did the precursors create the flood?
humble yacht
But it doesn’t mean we made the moon
craggy sierra
The precursors are flood
humble yacht
Sort of
karmic hemlock
WHAT?!
terse lava
You...didnt know that?
humble yacht
The precursors became flood through a long and complicated process
karmic hemlock
i was serious when i said explain like you would to an ignorant
west silo
Oh well then
karmic hemlock
my knowledge of halo lore is centered around the main events and a little into the backstory
craggy sierra
They turned themselves into a pickle an incorporeal consciousness of space dust after being beaten by the forerunners. And then people decided to feed the space dust to their pets.
west silo
Yep
fringe robin
didn't they use it to make their pets hair look better too?
craggy sierra
Pretty much
humble yacht
Sort of
karmic hemlock
this is making my brain BEND
terse lava
Some precursors after the forerunner rebellion reduced their bodies to a powder. This millions of years later was found by advanced ancient humans and san shyuum. It was found to be harmless and used an item for their pets. Centuries later it began mutating the pets into the first flood forms
gilded mason
Our urge to create is immutable; we must create. But the beings we create shall never again reach out in strength against us. All that is created will suffer. All will be born in suffering, endless grayness shall be their lot. All creation will tailor to failure and pain, that never again shall the offspring of the eternal Fount rise up against their creators. Listen to the silence. Ten million years of deep silence. And now, whimpers and cries; not of birth. That is what we bring: a great crushing weight to press down youth and hope. No more will. No more freedom. Nothing new but agonizing death and never good shall come of it.
- Gravemind
west silo
There also older than stars or the
universe in some sources
terse lava
Every time I read that quote it really makes the precursors seem childish
gilded mason
lol
craggy sierra
It’s cuz they are
gilded mason
They threw the controller across the room.
karmic hemlock
so the whole reason and goal behind the flood is to make everyone suffer
terse lava
That quote was that the precursors had 100 billion years of info. Not that they literally were
west silo
Well I don't want to see the adults
craggy sierra
Yep
gilded mason
so the whole reason and goal behind the flood is to make everyone suffer
Ye
craggy sierra
Give the flood credit, they’re so one dimensional they made god not interesting
karmic hemlock
i thought there was some sort of reason or higher goal. not petty schoolyard bickering
terse lava
Wanna hear the funny part sir?
humble yacht
That’s what Greg bear gave us
terse lava
The precursors didnt defend themselves
craggy sierra
I mean their higher goal, irrelevant of the motivations behind them, has only ever been to consume all life.
karmic hemlock
-_-
terse lava
They LET themselves be destroyed
karmic hemlock
...are you effing serious?
terse lava
And that destruction drove them insane
terse lava
It's what the gravemind claims
karmic hemlock
why didnt they just slap the crap out of the forerunners
terse lava
He could have said it just to mess with the forerunner juridical he was talking to at the time
Because
The precursor idea of the mantle is to protect all life, even energy
craggy sierra
I mean you say that
But they were planning on killing the forerunners first apparently.
terse lava
Thus, they wished to experience this, living both as primitives and hyper advanced. To them, suffering and good fortune were nothing but
Sweetness
humble yacht
I thought precursors let races live and die by their own merit?
Not active protection
terse lava
Well they apparently wanted to wipe out their creations
humble yacht
That’s just what the forerunners feared
terse lava
Forerunners were apparently the first to bite back
humble yacht
They had no proof
humble yacht
Both of those are forerunner
terse lava
We have only 1 source saying otherwise.
humble yacht
Biased sources
terse lava
So is the other source
I am going with the beings who are not putting lovecraft to shame
karmic hemlock
im sorry, that reasoning is utter nonsense. whoever came up with that bit of "lore" should be slapped
west silo
Well Faber was arrested once they found out
karmic hemlock
just my opinion
humble yacht
lol, his name is Greg bear, goods1r
humble yacht
That’s who created this nonsense
west silo
im sorry, that reasoning is utter nonsense. whoever came up with that bit of "lore" should be slapped
@karmic hemlock
This is why u don't take summarys at face value
karmic hemlock
indeed
humble yacht
I shake my fist at him
karmic hemlock
trying to write my own book series. its when you write yourself into a corner that you have to come up with macguffins and chekov's guns like that
craggy sierra
Were precursors made by Bungie?
terse lava
Yes Waffle
humble yacht
Bungie’s original halo bible mentioned precursors merely as a theoretical tier 0 race
karmic hemlock
and some dude took the idea, ran with it, and then tripped and fell onto his own scissors
humble yacht
They weren’t fleshed out as the gods that Greg bear made them into
west silo
Nope the forerunner trilogy is one of the best book series in halo
humble yacht
That’s a take
dense pulsar
I think what Halo really needs is Smash Bros tournaments
terse lava
Also Broken Circle best
west silo
Yes
craggy sierra
Part of me was wondering if Greg’s work turned out this way because there was literally no other way to write it. He had to write backwards from a bunch of cryptic dialog from the geavemind and the terminals of Halo 3 to put all the pieces in place to align.
dense pulsar
No more war, the fate of the galaxy is determined by the best Melee Fox
karmic hemlock
Part of me was wondering if Greg’s work turned out this way because there was literally no other way to write it. He had to write backwards from a bunch of cryptic dialog from the geavemind and the terminals of Halo 3 to put all the pieces in place to align.
@craggy sierra
this is true
west silo
Man this is why we can't have noce things
craggy sierra
There’s a point where some aspects of the history would’ve been better left un-said.
terse lava
To match halo 4
karmic hemlock
it would have been better to leave the precursors as mysterious and enigmatic as possible
dense pulsar
Idk
west silo
Alright guess we shouldn't have a covenant lore book after all
terse lava
Perhaps, but i do wish we'd dive more into the covenant past
dense pulsar
I feel like they could have brought Master Chief back better
west silo
Nope don't dive into tooo much history
dense pulsar
"Oh, he was sleeping and his ship miraculously found its way to a Forerunner shield world!"
gilded mason
How would you feel about a present day Covenant race thing, but they make references to past Covenant events?
karmic hemlock
lol
craggy sierra
Explaining the lore of a warring race that was actively threatening humanity for 27 years is a very different scenario than LITERALLY CANONIZING GOD
gilded mason
lol
terse lava
@gilded mason I could live with it, so long as there is a bit of context. Unlike the h3 armors
gilded mason
Yeh
karmic hemlock
lore of the books should've stayed out of the games, tbh. or at least made things more clear
west silo
Oh so the killer robots from gods pets history is important?
karmic hemlock
le sigh...
west silo
lore of the books should've stayed out of the games, tbh. or at least made things more clear
@karmic hemlock
This is biggest sin of halo
This is what bungie did
terse lava
Like, least explain what those battles were in the armor details
karmic hemlock
see, this is why i adore Battletech, the history is so much clearer and concise because only one guy was in charge of the lore
craggy sierra
Slowly since 343 has taken over the lore has been getting gradually more concise or at least more focused.
karmic hemlock
i guess im being too harsh, the franchise was barely fleshed out when CE came out
its just... kooky
craggy sierra
A lot more of the extended universe is beginning to focus on the here and now instead of bashing you in the head with 100,000 year old history lessons.
terse lava
How about this for kooky. One of bungie's original ideas was to have the flood be a covenant test of adulthood
terse lava
Or a covenant weapon
west silo
At least it not warhammer where the last book gets retconed by the newest one
dense pulsar
I think the history of the arbiter title is kind of cool, especially if you accept the Halo Legends depiction of the Elite homeworld
humble yacht
How about this for kooky. One of bungie's original ideas was to have the flood be a covenant test of adulthood
So basically ripping off AvP
karmic hemlock
you know what, i think im done with halo for tonight. i was gonna play halo wars, nope. i think im just gonna beer up
west silo
Before AVP
karmic hemlock
have a good night everyone
craggy sierra
That’s my reaction to talking about precursors too
west silo
GN to you
humble yacht
AvP was books and games before it was a movie
dense pulsar
I mean, why not? Halo already had a bunch of aspects of Starship Troopers baked in
karmic hemlock
thanks for putting up with my questions
west silo
We love lore questions
terse lava
Goodnight man
karmic hemlock
lol
craggy sierra
I mean like 50% of the UNSC’s designs are just ripped from Aliens
terse lava
All good, it's what this place is for
west silo
Only the pelican really
karmic hemlock
halo took the strange and dumped a big ol helping on its head
terse lava
Just the pelican like thing
humble yacht
But yeah, AvP was a thing years before Halo
terse lava
Juat look at the sangheili and predators
west silo
Now those are obvious
dense pulsar
I want to see what a UNSC propaganda film looks like
west silo
You should feel bad for mentioning those
terse lava
Except sangheili are better
dense pulsar
Or what a movie about Reach in the Halo universe looks like
I'd like to believe it'd be a mix of Saving Private Ryan and Platoon
humble yacht
I dunno, for all their technological advancements over humans, elites never learned to be secular
I call that a flaw
dense pulsar
Well, they did have Forerunner artifacts on their planet and refused to understand why they were there or what they were
Forerunner stuff seems like solid evidence for a proof of gods and deities
If you don't understand that it's alien tech
Like imagine you're some caveman and I give you a cellphone or something, you'd be like "God poggers" too
When you have a mindset like that were Forerunner tech = proof of gods, it's easy to stick to faith than to question it
humble yacht
Hearing people use poggers unironically makes me think of paul Rudd’s Covid awareness video
west silo
What a minute is abbadon a knowledge engine
west silo
Neural physics-based decision-creation intelligence used by the Precursors analogous to ancilla.
west silo
Because this is what warfleet says
And it sounds almost like its talking about abbadon
humble yacht
Halo already has nanomachines
dense pulsar
I mean in the way Nanomachines are used to explain stuff in MGS when Kojima can't think of a way of doing it himself
humble yacht
But metal gear nanomachines never reached the levels of asinine that neural physics does
west silo
Humans have nanomachines
dense pulsar
True
west silo
But metal gear nanomachines never reached the levels of asinine that neural physics does
@humble yacht
Have played metal gear survive
humble yacht
In metal gear, parasites are the precursors of nanomachines
Yeah I don’t consider Survive to be canon
dense pulsar
MGS could really do with some remake games to clear the retcons and lore up
humble yacht
Nah
shut dew
I have a feeling that Microsoft has some creative mandates imposed on EU writers and 343 given that most Halo stories have similar plots
cedar surge
How big is the MGS lore
Do they?
I think its more 343 just telling writers what to do
Like 343 telling Karen Travis to set up for halo 4
humble yacht
343 will contact an author with an idea of what they want
They’ll say “we want a story about ____”
shut dew
@cedar surge You're on the right track.
I mean restrictions on themes that can be explored, the tone, characters, HOW future games are set up, etc
dense pulsar
A book about Jun committing war crimes
cedar surge
A book about a admiral who agtrt getting lost after a battlemust fight his way back to friendly unsc territory while fighting covenant ships
Oh and starring admiral cole
cedar surge
So how much of a war crime are the Spartans
jolly swift
Yes
carmine sleet
Child soldiers is a war crime
lethal comet
Biological experiments were carried out
versed helm
kidnapping, murder, numerous Geneva convention rules
after doing it, Halsey was like Walugi in that walugi meme, where he says "i've won, but at what cost?"
heck, serin wanted her dead
lethal comet
tbh the kilo five books compared halsey to josef mengele
hushed briar
go to #471727324895641651
lethal comet
@hushed briar wrong channel mate
lethal comet
And her journal was treated as the mein kampf
cedar surge
Well there are 16 billion humans left
gilded mason
Traviss went very...overboard.
dense pulsar
I mean
carmine sleet
What good will the Geneva conventions be if your species is totally gone?
How you fight a war is just as important as to why you fight a war
lethal comet
What good will the Geneva conventions be if your species is totally gone?
The spartans were made to counter innies
cedar surge
I mean all halsey did was kidnap kids and use them for war,carried out biological experiments,replaced them with clones that would die in a year
Its not like she did mass murder
lethal comet
Traviss hated halsey a little bit too much
dense pulsar
The Covenant wanted to wipe humans out and while a conventional war were you just get conquered, a war were your race just may not be around anymore if you lose, I feel like you're alot more willing to do bad stuff
carmine sleet
I mean all halsey did was kidnap kids and use them for war,carried out biological experiments,replaced them with clones that would die in a year
That's still not ok, they were kids. Children shouldn't be fighting wars
cedar surge
Yea its still bad
dense pulsar
I suppose
lethal comet
The Covenant wanted to wipe humans out and while a conventional war were you just get conquered, a war were your race just may not be around anymore if you lose, I feel like you're alot more willing to do bad stuff
Like I said, spartans were made to kill innies not covenant
cedar surge
@dense pulsar 2s were made to eradicate innies
dense pulsar
But the UNSC was SURE that the fighting the innies for too long would wipe out humans
Or set them back to the stone age
cedar surge
Well no
lethal comet
Innies arent that powerful
dense pulsar
I suppose it speaks to the apparent tyranny of the UEG
west silo
Well science said otherwise
cedar surge
Could she just be over reacting?
lethal comet
Earth based governments fall in a lot of sci fi universes
west silo
Halsey isn't known to overreact
cedar surge
The inner colonies are much stronger than the outer colonies
Wasn't she about to shoot somebody because they didn't let her look at somebody in kilo 5?
gilded mason
No, she apparently ran the tests a lot, and then when she went to the UNSC with her findings, she found out they came to the same conclusions with their own tests.
dense pulsar
Potentially Lance but I think a protracted war with innies would hurt the UEG
People would start thinking "Why are we going off to fight these pointless wars?"
west silo
The ai basically got the same results her predictions were just worse
cedar surge
The outer colonies don't have their own reach or mars to make ships
dense pulsar
Then they start rioting and what not
dense pulsar
Thats a optics nightmare right there
dense pulsar
I don't mean literally pointless but thats what the populace will think
west silo
Well nuking any colony isn't good
dense pulsar
Think Vietnam or the war in the middle easy
cedar surge
The last time the unsc fought a war was hundreds of years ago
dense pulsar
The mindset has widely been "why are we there again?"
I think fighting innies for too long would have the same effect
lethal comet
The innies wont conquer
cedar surge
And killing civilians
carmine sleet
The Innies want independence from the UNSC, they resorted to violence because the UNSC was not allowing them to be peaceful
dense pulsar
I can see why the UEG doesn't want a competing space-faring entity tho
cedar surge
@carmine sleet does that excise nuking people thpugh
gilded mason
Though of course, so were the UNSC. And unlike the Innies, which comprise of many individual insurrections, the UNSC is one single organization.
carmine sleet
does that excise nuking people thpugh
Didn't need to tag me and no, it doesn't
cedar surge
Oh sorry
west silo
Its like fighting space terrorist but they can fight in anywhere
carmine sleet
But there is a reason behind why they're doing these things. Like I said, how you fight a war is just as important as the why
cedar surge
Operation trebuchet
lethal comet
I wouldnt call innies terrorists
west silo
Remember people unsc commanders can also be innies
cedar surge
Yea cause they are traitors
lethal comet
Innies just want freedom
gilded mason
Perhaps 'rebels' or 'freedom fighters'
west silo
Some are
cedar surge
Are you sure all of them want that
lethal comet
Yeah rebels is a better word
cedar surge
Some just want the destruction of the entire UEG
lethal comet
But the ones with the nukes are definitely terrorists
west silo
Well then rebels
lethal comet
Some just want the destruction of the entire UEG
I wonder why
cedar surge
They would probably try to nuke earth into oblivion if given the chance
west silo
Hey to be fair its the CAA fault it got so bad
lethal comet
One of em was ready to glass earth
cedar surge
See
dense pulsar
I think UEG probably should set up a puppet "government"
cedar surge
So you wouldn't make the distinction between civilians and UEG?
west silo
Because ONI kidnapped his daughter
@lethal comet
Really kill millions?
dense pulsar
Well, when you're a terroist
dense pulsar
You want to scare and shock the civilians of your enemy
lethal comet
Just glass sydney i say
dense pulsar
Why? So they petition their government to reconsider fighting them
carmine sleet
Please tell me you're not actually trying to justify committing war crimes
west silo
Still millions of innocent
cedar surge
You really going to kill billions who had npthong to do with iy
That's still millions of people
cedar surge
You know that's probably the mindset the innies have
west silo
Not all of oni is evil
lethal comet
Necessary evil
west silo
Some people are just literally doing there jobs
lethal comet
But the inssurection is UEG's fault
leaden minnow
time to destroy the covenant evil
west silo
👍
cedar surge
@dense pulsar bruh shock and awe? That's just going to make the unsc have revenge
The unsc has hundreds of planets under its control
Its going to strike back
west silo
Against who
dense pulsar
Yes, but if you do it enough and get it to the point were civilains BEG not to fight them anymore, what do you think will happen?
dense pulsar
Well, some innies are able to get ahold of nukes right?
west silo
U can't attack all the outer colonies without proof of which is actually with the innies
dense pulsar
if you target enough civilian targets
lethal comet
They can get covenant weaponry as well now
dense pulsar
And scare them enough into thinking "oh they're kinda crazy we don't want to fight them"
west silo
Nukes in halo are very easy to get
cedar surge
Why would the unsc be scared of innies
dense pulsar
Not the UNSC
cedar surge
They are magnitudes smaller
dense pulsar
The actual citizenry
dense pulsar
The goal is to scare them so they ask the UNSC to back off
west silo
Man this sounds like starship troopers
dense pulsar
Maybe not the UNSC itself, but the UEG which I presume holds power over the UNSC
west silo
The government does
dense pulsar
They lobby for the fighting stop when they vote
west silo
They gave back power to the UEG
dense pulsar
Eventually politicians will go "if you vote me, i end war"
Thats who they vote for
fighting innies ends
cedar surge
How to get murkurjed by ONI
cedar surge
The unsc isn't going to back down
west silo
Bruh sounds like something del Rio would say
opal birch
The UEG should have just addressed the problems that eventually led to the to Innies becoming a thing in the first place.
dense pulsar
The UNSC maybe but the UEG would make them if poltics swings that way and it becomes politically unfeasible to keep fighting them
cedar surge
Plus you would have to hit hundreds to actual thousands of civilian targets to get to that point
west silo
The UEG should have just addressed the problems that eventually led to the to Innies becoming a thing in the first place.
@opal birch
They tried
dense pulsar
Not really
cedar surge
The UEG is more than one plamet
gilded mason
They tried
Not really
west silo
Yes
dense pulsar
Think 9/11. That changed the entire landscape of the country and that wasn't even completely successful
cedar surge
And what did the US did in retaliation?
dense pulsar
Three letter agencies started monitoring the citizens more and it sparked a war
Now imagine if the terrorists had nukes
west silo
But slow ftl and communications killed it
dense pulsar
Were scattered among several planets and not linked to a single ideology
cedar surge
Th ere are way more than several llanets
Plus this still doesn't justify the deaths of millions of civilians
cedar surge
The innnirw actually tried to do this
dense pulsar
Your enemy can be anyone from anywhere and at anytime inflict terrible damage to you
cedar surge
Which lead to operation trebuchet
So in lore its proven that this wont actually work
Plus terrible damage for the unsc would be something like losing hundreds of shipyards
Not losing a few measly people
dense pulsar
You say that
But in the military people are still a resource
you need to train people in basic
opal birch
where in Halo media does it show or say that the UEG actually tried to address colonists' grievances towards the government?
dense pulsar
Depending on your rate, that can take upwards of a 2 years
west silo
Dude it works because it shows civilians how ruthless the government is and makes them want to be free from the unsc
cedar surge
The unsc has hundreds of millions of soldiers
west silo
Billions more like it
dense pulsar
Soldiers are still people too. If enough of them see that the UNSC is willing to throw them into a meat grinder, a mutiny or two can happen
cedar surge
How does nuking and killing millions of people =ruthless government
dense pulsar
Thats why optics and heuristics are important to the UNSC
west silo
Reach had 700 million military remember
west silo
How does nuking and killing millions of people =ruthless government
@cedar surge
Dude ur government doesn't nuke its civilians
That's what makes the innies so scary
They can be anywhere
cedar surge
Its not as if the innies can just nuke millions of civilians and pin it on theUEG
dense pulsar
Innies require a surgical knife
And when you nuke them
You're taking a hatchet to them
west silo
U also nuke civilians
dense pulsar
You only make more innies feel justified in their beliefs
west silo
Yep
dense pulsar
"The UNSC is more willing to kill than to listen"
cedar surge
And when innies attack the same goes for UEG citizens
"The innies just want to kill us all"
dense pulsar
The thing is
The innies can be multiple factions
The UNSC is a single unified one under a central government
cedar surge
I don't think comment citizenry would make that distinction
opal birch
Mista is that quote from one of the books? If yes who said it?
dense pulsar
I wouldn't know @opal birch
cedar surge
I think its just a example
Also while there would be some fear some people would absolutely be vying for vengeance
At the start operation trebuchet got support from the public because of this
dense pulsar
Thats the thing about terrorism tho
Sure you can crush their front or army
But theres always those planning their own attacks
Maybe they get an air vehicle and crash it into a UNSC ship?
cedar surge
You know unsc ships are actually toiph right
west silo
And other would take this to show how the unsc uses this to manipulate its people to support a despicable cause
cedar surge
That wouldn't do much damage
dense pulsar
Maybe they go to Reach, the UNSC's most militarized planet and go for something there?
Yes, maybe not destroy it outright
cedar surge
Like what
cedar surge
A orbital generator they can rebuild in a couple weeks
west silo
That wouldn't do much damage
@cedar surge
Remember how far isle caused people to join the innies? Yeah
dense pulsar
They could potentially down it for a while if people don't respond fast enough
cedar surge
Enough?
dense pulsar
What if they radicalize some shipyard workers and they start setting fires in the ship?
cedar surge
That would take a few dozen
dense pulsar
All it took for the USS Miami to go down was one guy who didn't want to work that day
cedar surge
Why would a metal ship with anti fire countermeasures with things go down in fire
opal birch
The most militant Innies factions aren't that honorable either
west silo
Bruh one marine dropping a grenade in a ships reactor no more ship
cedar surge
I think your underestimating Unsc UNSC ships
cedar surge
Actually that would take repeated grenades spartan
Remeber how it took 2 rockets to take out one vent
dense pulsar
Yea but what if the security forces DON'T get there in time?
west silo
I think your underestimating Unsc UNSC ships
@cedar surge.
It caused the pilliar of autumn to explode
dense pulsar
Or he has friends who hold the security forces off?
cedar surge
Or what if the ship AI just decided
To just vent the entire roon
And kill everyone in there
west silo
Well just murdered everyone on that room
dense pulsar
Thats if they're in space tho
If they're in like dry dock and the ship needs to be worked on
or in port
cedar surge
Everybody in the room would then be dead innie
dense pulsar
Alot more damage can be fone
west silo
Plus innies take over ships all the time
west silo
Johnson got spaced in silent storm
cedar surge
Why would the unsc care about a drone ship on the water
dense pulsar
What if the innies ARE the guards tho?
west silo
Suicide bombers?
cedar surge
Who don't decide to just activate turrets
west silo
Who don't decide to just activate turrets
@cedar surge
Turrets?
cedar surge
Suicide bombers vs blast door
dense pulsar
They could just run into the bridge with a vest and boom
cedar surge
Did you guys forget turrets are a thing?
west silo
They don't know there bombers
dense pulsar
The guards are probably asking him basic questions like "Wheres your ID? Lemme check the access logs"
Then he runs in
boom
cedar surge
And why would the bridge be open like that?
cedar surge
Why would a bridge be wide open for anybody to take a stroll in
dense pulsar
Because people need to go on and off watch
cedar surge
Doors
dense pulsar
I figure if the ship isn't in a high state of alert
cedar surge
Like basic doors
dense pulsar
The hatches are open
west silo
The PoA didn't have doors
dense pulsar
You don't really need to close them unless a casualty happens aboard the ship
Actually, its funny because a submarine was saved when it crashed into a underwater mountain and the sonar dome opened up. The only reason the crew didnt die is because a SINGLE watertight door was shut leading to the dome
cedar surge
So assuming this bomber somehow managed to put on the best,not get discovered by other crew,not get discovered by the shipboard AI,how can we be sure he actually kills
dense pulsar
Now think about someone actually wanting to cause harm to a UNSC ship
west silo
Wait everyone
cedar surge
One ship out of thousands
west silo
I remember
cedar surge
Musta you are only going to kill some bridge crew
There are still hundreds of people on that ship fine
west silo
In halo they have bombs the size rubix cubes that can destroy buildings theres our answer
west silo
Contact harvest
cedar surge
Line?
west silo
They use it to breach a unsc frigate
dense pulsar
Alright but imagine if enough people do that at various points throughout the ship?
west silo
I don't have the book unfortunately
cedar surge
What is it with "enough"
dense pulsar
You're dealing with one causalty
cedar surge
Of course with enough people you can do anything
cedar surge
Enough nukes can destroy a colony
west silo
Alright but imagine if enough people do that at various points throughout the ship?
@dense pulsar
Don't worry if the bridge is gone the ship is dead in the water
dense pulsar
Exactly Spartan
cedar surge
Enough Spartans will kill all innies
dense pulsar
It wouldn't take very many innies is the thing either
cedar surge
Nough Johnson's would save the galaxy
dense pulsar
All it takes is a few suicide bombers
cedar surge
And how are they going to get suicide vests in?
west silo
Not vest rubix cubes
cedar surge
And the unsc will just magically being ignoring those kinds of things
dense pulsar
Probably yes
cedar surge
Really
dense pulsar
You think they're going to check EVERY seabag?
cedar surge
They have the tech to do it
west silo
They didn't know the entire crew of a ship was full of innies once
Literally got a hold of the fact that Spartans were children
cedar surge
You just realized
west silo
Literally were working for oni
cedar surge
You just realized the Spartans were kids?
dense pulsar
Thats the scary part
cedar surge
Context
west silo
The ship in prowler in silent storm
dense pulsar
They get apart your Intel
They know how they plan to fight your guys on the outside
You can convince others to not do their jobs
cedar surge
Yea and the only thing they kbowistgat Spartans are children
And likewise for the unsc
dense pulsar
Sometimes naval jobs come down to one guy not doing his job right
cedar surge
The unsc got innies to work for them during the war
west silo
Context
@cedar surge .
Oni dude is actually a innies who knows the true orgins of the Spartans and even gave it a way to some other people
dense pulsar
The nav didn't plot the course right or adjust for bearing?
Guess the ship is crashing
dense pulsar
The radar guy doesn't know what he's doing? You've been counter detected
cedar surge
You think the unsc is just going to sit there while the ship is about to crash into the mountain
Again
Shipboard ai
dense pulsar
Yes, its a possibility
Crews can get complacent
Start thinking their job is too easy
Start goofing off on watch
cedar surge
So you say the everyone is just going to sit on the bridge while the one navigator is going to crash the ship
west silo
Easy someone sabotages the slipspace drive
dense pulsar
Yes, it literally happened to a sub irl
dense pulsar
If enou people do it and stretch the AIs resources thin, what then?
cedar surge
You can't exactly stretch a smart AI thin
west silo
Asteroid fields are very common
cedar surge
"Oh hey Jeff just accelerated our ship at max speed towards a asteroid,what a great unsc supporter"
dense pulsar
Plot a bad a course, hope the AI doesn't find a discrepancy and go
cedar surge
But don't fly the ship
dense pulsar
Yes
west silo
Well thats just a bad idea
dense pulsar
A naval vessel has different rates for a reason
cedar surge
So wouldn't that mean any driver with a brain is not going to fly on the course since its obviously going to crash?
dense pulsar
You usually get the more junior guys to be on sticks
west silo
Might as well hope the ai forgets to see
cedar surge
Junior guy doesn't realize flying into a asteroid is a. Bad idea?
Even a new guy wouldn't be that stupid
dense pulsar
The junior guy won't KNOW because he can't see the charted course
west silo
Hey have u forgotten Florida man exist
cedar surge
But he would have to see the course right
cedar surge
Spartan like earlier you said they had to be trained for the job
dense pulsar
He's merely controlling the ship
cedar surge
Now your acting as if the unsc just grabbed them off the street and gace them a 5 minute presentation
west silo
I did not say anything about training
cedar surge
Oh that was mista
dense pulsar
Why? So you're ready to do a job in the event too many people die
You need to be flexible to do the basics of another rate
west silo
I just said people can be stupid some time
dense pulsar
That too
west silo
Like whats going on now
dense pulsar
If too many people are lazy or stupid on a job
cedar surge
And in the event the ship does crash into a rock the ship is not just going to explode
dense pulsar
That can compromise a ship
cedar surge
That relies on the entire crew being stupid and lazy
west silo
Well no but its not going anywhere
dense pulsar
Maybe not explode but suffer a major casualty and lose alot of crew
And maybe not
Divisions are based on rates
cedar surge
A halved class was able to ram a covenant ship fine
dense pulsar
If the leadership in your rates are lazy and complacent
cedar surge
The infinity crashed and was able to get up fine
dense pulsar
That drips down to the junior guys
west silo
That's the infinity
dense pulsar
They start getting lazy
Next thing you know, your ship is finna crash
People in EW don't oversee what nav does
cedar surge
And nobody would notice the asteroid getting closer
cedar surge
Did I specify weapons?
dense pulsar
No, but not every department and division ALWAYS knows what another is doing
cedar surge
Anyway unsc ships can see hundreds of thousands of kilometers away
west silo
To be honest it more realistic for the innies to take over the ship
dense pulsar
See yes, but when you're moving too fast to react, what are you going to do?
west silo
Like in coles backstory
dense pulsar
True
dense pulsar
I was just arguing how a bad crew can ruin a ship
cedar surge
Hundreds of thousands of kilometers away
The ships isn't going to reach it in likr 5 seconds
The only ship type maybe capable of that that is a frigate
And it would take it 3 full days to go from earth to Pluto at full speed
west silo
Well frigates are probably the slowest
cedar surge
What
west silo
Since they engines are small
west silo
Thats kinda how ships work
cedar surge
Because the frigates are the smallest
west silo
Nope the bigger the engine the faster the ship
cedar surge
"All crewmen are trained to use the M6 series of handguns" its not like navel personal are helpless
But yea crashing a ship requires the entire crew to be stupid,lazy,and blind
dense pulsar
Not the entire
Just a few key people or a division
Watches in the actual Navy lost like 6-8 hours
cedar surge
And what's to stop the person actually flying the ship to just complete stop
Or in another direction
Once they realize they are heading for a asteroid
dense pulsar
Because, once you're probably in range of a meteor or something to crash into, you're going too fast already
dense pulsar
You got to remember, in space, when you're travelling in a single direction, theres nothing to stop you like on Earth like friction
cedar surge
It's not like the titanic where the asteroid shows up out of nowhere
light kiln
Plus ships are known to crash into planets and still be able to function.
dense pulsar
Really?
dense pulsar
I ain't know that
cedar surge
It doesn't even have to be AI
It could just bbe computers resetting the course because something is in the way
The navigator would most defiantly not have total control over the whole course
Computors would also play a big part
All it would take is for the computer to realize they are heading for a asteroid,and reset the course
It wouldn't take a smart AI to realize this
dense pulsar
That would require them to know there was an asteroid field there previously
Or if they had a specific mission that required them to take a different route than normal
cedar surge
Oh so in unknown territory,in the middle of nowhere the crew is just going to be lazy
Different route?
dense pulsar
its a possibility, yes
cedar surge
Asteroids are hundreds of miles away from another
dense pulsar
"Oh. No covenant. No innies. Lets just chill i guess"
west silo
Oh man this is still going onnnnmn
cedar surge
I will not give and neither will he
light kiln
Would depend on the class of ship too. Since some are not able to move as swiftly as others. Though they would have a radar of shorts for those things. Not to menion thst in current Halo time, ships are being outfitted with energy shielding. Asteroids are also known to be miles wide. So dodging is easy.
I dont even know what this is about.
cedar surge
He saying it would be easy for innies to crash a unsc ship
light kiln
Like.... into it?
west silo
It'd be easier to just take it
cedar surge
Yes
dense pulsar
then i argued a bad crew could mess a ship up
light kiln
Spartan is right. It's easier to take the ship then destroy it.
cedar surge
I'm arguing why it wouldn't make sense that the innies could crash the ship without anybody noticing
Most of his argument is bad crew
dense pulsar
Its something that happens irl
Captains get cocky, crash into another ship
The crew gets lazy on watch and no one notices until its too late
cedar surge
Captains don't drive the ship,do they?
light kiln
The ship would warn you. The Infinity had alarms going of when the ship was close to crashing.
cedar surge
Yea
dense pulsar
No but captains do command a ship and if their suggestions are consistently bad, it can harm a ship
cedar surge
Simple computers tell the entire ship when they are going to crash
light kiln
Plus you have dumb AI doing most of the menial tasks.
cedar surge
Anybody with a brain will be suspicious of a captain who keep telling them to crash into the asteroid
Plus yea
AI do most of the driving
dense pulsar
Not crash into astroids
It'll usually be something like
"Chief, ignore that course, plot one more according to this"
etc etc
Or ignore their crews call outs
light kiln
So, intentionally crashing.
light kiln
Yeah. If you want to crash the ship yourself you can.
cedar surge
That would be intentionally crashing mista
west silo
Man at this the captain would be arrested
dense pulsar
Or "i need to get a mission done so i'll choose what i listen to"
cedar surge
Yea
west silo
For being mentally unstable
cedar surge
No I don't think these guys could actually get away with that
dense pulsar
You don't always need to act on what your crew is saying is the thing
cedar surge
It you pull stupid decisions you are going to get arrested
light kiln
(Not going to lie. I came here to ask if a Spartan could survive being blasted from a MAC.)
west silo
Well yes but actually no
west silo
Not u
cedar surge
Not take the captains decisions
west silo
Above
cedar surge
Not u above?
dense pulsar
Not really
west silo
What
cedar surge
The stalwart can too
light kiln
My mind keeps thinking th-
Really?
dense pulsar
wut
west silo
Out of coilguns
light kiln
I know what I am going to do today.
west silo
What next shoot ammo out of a tank
Our wait lets shoot the reinforcements out of the tank
light kiln
Nevermind. That's not the main mac.
cedar surge
They are both coilguns
light kiln
It's the system at which they are launched out the ship.
cedar surge
The crew of a ship don't have to listen to the captain when the captain is intentionally trying to get them killed
If he told them to fly into a star do you think they would?
Even if he told them to go around the star anybody who even knows the tiniest bit of knowledge will know that will boil them alive
And after enough bad decisions he will probably get kicked down a few ranks
Or arrested
How long has this conversation been going?
west silo
Well HW would like to have a word with u
cedar surge
False star
west silo
Still hot
cedar surge
I think the crew would have realized the star may not be as dangerous where if they got that close to any other star they would be boiling paste
I mean
They were like
A few miles away from it
west silo
Hey am just saying they did go near a star
cedar surge
Fake star
west silo
Don't say that about him
half cairn
The SoF's Titanium A Battleplate allowed them to travel close enough to the star to sling shot the ship away from the planet. It couldn't stay in orbit of the star for a long period, but the ship's armor was heat resistant enough for a quick pass by.
inner basin
I wonder if the other Spartan-III teams on Reach were under the Army jurisdiction (similar to NOBLE) or are they alike to their Spartan-II counterparts (which is in most cases under Navy jurisdiction)
cedar surge
They are part of the navy but they were just working under the army
inner basin
Actually, they're not part of the Navy anymore, and that also did not answer the question I asked. I know basically all there is to know about S-IIIs, but I wanted to hear others thoughts on this topic as it's unknown at this time. All we know about the 3 named teams is that they are all Spartan-IIIs and that they were on Civilian Evac Ops around or just prior to the glassing of New Alexandria
cedar surge
So the 300 ganas are still around right?
Have they just been collecting dust in a cryochamber in a ONI facility?
That's 300 Spartans who can't feel pain who could be fighting
inner basin
Well there's more than 300 last we heard. We know there was 330 augmented, and that only 7 are confirmed KIA while the rest are only listed KIA. That was a good couple of years ago in universe though
cedar surge
So 330 Spartans somewhere
Are they just forgotten about?
Would you say the pain nullification is a good or bad thing?
humble yacht
Bad
inner basin
It can be good if it's nothing too serious, and they can keep fighting, but bad if it's substantial injuries that could lead to death without immediate treatment
prisma root
Hey everyone
cedar surge
Hey
humble yacht
The gammas need to take downers for the rest of their life or they risk psychosis
That’s a heavy dependency
nimble crest
Downers? You mean smoothers?
humble yacht
Sure
cedar surge
So if they get cut off from the unsc just a little while
inner basin
Oh yeah, I almost forgot about that. I wonder if cryo can prevent that (being becoming mentally unstable) from happening, I mean I'd assume so as it freezes your body to the point that you age very slowly
humble yacht
The whole purpose of cryosleep is to slow the reaction kinetics of cell activity to near zero
So yeah, in cryosleep the crazy meter should pause
inner basin
Okay, I thought so
inner basin
Yeah, it's somewhere around that mark
cedar surge
Being in cryo for 4 years must have done wonders for chief
I mean look at what it did for cutter
round comet
but Biologically he's around 40 right?
id say in his 30s.
cedar surge
Couldn't the gammas look over each other to look for damage since they can't feel any?
round comet
so much time in cryo, and the augmentations.
inner basin
Couldn't the gammas look over each other to look for damage since they can't feel any?
I mean if they're busy fighting, probably not
I mean firefights would be the likely cause of how they could get hurt
sharp adder
Mabey they are in a seret oni facility to clone and make more Spartans
cedar surge
Cloning is illegal
And those clones die very shortly
Plus I think cloning gives medical problems to the clone
inner basin
Yeah, cloning is very inefficient
humble yacht
Specifically full cloning
Flash cloning is normally for making new body parts
For medical purposes
cedar surge
Plusithink you would be copying the crazy onto the clones
So is the gammas the biggest war crime out of the 3s
humble yacht
Eh
I think trying to compare which program was more unethical is pointless
They were all bad
Except the IVs and Is
cedar surge
Phase 1 of Spartan 1s all died though
cedar surge
Every program backfired eventually in some way