@autumn urchin This, as with many things, would be an issue of gameplay over canon. Just because you don't see hornets during the game Halo: Reach, doesn't mean the UNSC did not employ hornets in some capacity during the Battle of Reach.
#lore-and-universe
versed helm
Though, hypothetically, you could say that Six simply never encountered them. Games are, after all, a very small slice of the universe.
terse lava
Still feel cheated after all these years that we couldnt join in that large far off battle battle
prime raptor
versed helm
humble yacht
just ignore, looters
guy was a troll
wasn't actually trying to engage in lore discussion
terse lava
Something hapoemed?
humble yacht
it's over now
versed helm
Attempting to read whatever that was almost caused me a stroke
terse lava
Btw, didnt older lore from contact harvest mention that the arbiter duringb the tamingb of the lekgolo died during the conversion?
nocturne wyvern
polar elm
The Arbiter at the time didn't exactly die, it seems that he was the one who suggested to the Council to tame Lekgolo.
At least that's what Contact Harvest mentions. It's entirely possible that he did die later on.
How they managed to tame the Lekgolo without getting steamrolled, however, is beyond me.
slow crag
Wait what's a lekgolo again is it the hunters
humble yacht
It’s a single worm unit. A bunch of these worms come together to form a single Hunter
terse lava
Pity that time was not expanded on further
terse lava
Wonder if the Covenant would have been different had the main client mb t races had a rep on the council
sacred dew
Think will ever see the aliens from halo envoy in a halo game
carmine sleet
You mean the Sharquoi?
Because they were originally going to be in CE, but were cut, then the same again happened with Halo 2
sacred dew
Soo there's a chance then
They would be cool as a boss
Or even a reference
carmine sleet
I wouldn't say that them being cut from CE and 2 is evidence that there's a chance for them to appear in a future game
sacred dew
Oh well
U think the animals we saw on 343s site will be in infinite
versed helm
Was rookies’s identity ever released? I know it wasn’t in ODST. Like was it ever shown on a website?
humble yacht
No
hushed badger
His name was "J.D."
feral perch
“John Doe”
terse lava
I could see it, maybe mini boss battle of sorts in a ares
sacred dew
They would be stronger than hunters though but lack ranged weapons
terse lava
Anyone think the covenant Bothered with creating super Weapons?
slow crag
Wdym super weapons they already capable of glassing a planet lol
terse lava
No, not a full planet anymore. Just areas of it.
dim imp
Sure you need more than one ship to glass an entire planet
versed helm
You could argue that a scarab is a super weapon
dim imp
I guess we will need to define what is a "super weapon" first
terse lava
Something on planetary level destruction
Humans have NOVAs, forerunners had the halos, covenant..nothing
dim imp
Maybe slipspace can be used for mass destruction ?
Also antimatter bombs can also be classified as weapons of mass destruction when you think about it
carmine sleet
WMDs aren't as powerful as what Ado is talking about. They mean stuff like that not a moon but a space station from that iconic Sci-Fi film series
But as far as we know, there isn't anything that can destroy a planet like that which the Covenant has. If they did, they'd likely have deployed it against humanity
tired river
The covenant tended not to use WMDs
Meanwhile humanity was all over WMDs and made anything into one lol
terse lava
Well, I just find it a tad odd, that the closest they seem to have would be high charity itself with forerunner weapon cores. Thus curious if there may be others
feral perch
Glassing is an extremely effective, if distasteful, method of suppression.
The Covenant were more interested in obtaining Forerunner artifacts and clues that might lead them to Halo, than intentionally seeking out conflict.
terse lava
Though I doubt theu would use such things on humanity. That's like vaporizing a town due to a a few houses swarming with roaches
feral perch
They probably saw no need to develop those kind of weapons.
terse lava
@feral perchtrue, was thinking more flood taint
feral perch
And their interactions with the Flood were probably rare enough that they didn't warrant a rise in demand for WMDs.
terse lava
It does raise a question I guess of how often the covenant came across a flood
They certainly wouldn't leave a flood tainted planet alone
tired river
The covenant only came across the flood 3 times
feral perch
Possibly prior to Shield 0459, but not necessarily.
terse lava
They come across the flood far more than 3 times
tired river
Actually as far as I recall
gilded mason
The Temple Wraith talked about Zealots using those vehicles to clear out Flood infestations.
tired river
4 times, wasn’t it on shield 0459, Alpha halo, threshold’s gas mine, and then delta halo?
feral perch
The Flood on Threshold's gas mine came from Alpha Halo, didn't they?
terse lava
No they're stored on the gas mine
terse lava
But no those are only the examples we have of a few months in the covenants existence
feral perch
I know there were some Flood spores there, but the actual combat forms I thought had gotten to the gas mine from Alpha Halo.
tired river
Nah those were just heretics and Special ops elites who got infected I think
terse lava
No no then Infectionforms excaped quarantine and started going after everyone
feral perch
Ah, I see.
tired river
I thought Sesa released them as a last ditch effort to fight Rtas’ group?
terse lava
Anyway it raises the question of what they did in the past to deal with flood planets. One could get away with the old lorev they could literally glass an entire planet to a Giant marble but ever since they nerf the firepower a raises the question how they dealt with such dangers to the Galaxy
tired river
I doubt the covenant found any planets that had been consumed by the flood
terse lava
They certainly found relics that were tainted by the flood
tired river
As far as I recall they only encountered them twice on 0459 and Alpha halo. The flood was supposedly one last hurdle before the great journey but they hadn’t yet encountered them until 2531 on 0459
gilded mason
The Temple Wraith lore implies otherwise.
terse lava
And the fieldmaster talking with ripa
"What if the infection defiles the relic?"
They were clearly familiar with the flood
gilded mason
Ah, good catch.
tired river
Dang
terse lava
Thank you
terse lava
It's all good plastic
feral perch
Etran Harborage, Alpha Halo + Gas Mine, and Delta Halo are separate incidents.
terse lava
No reason to feel badd about
feral perch
So about four known encounters.
terse lava
Yes but those encounters have happened within a few months of each other in one year compared to 3400 years of the covenants existence
obsidian thistle
Just so thats known
terse lava
True true
feral perch
Etran Harborage is decades separated
tired river
Etran harborage happened 20 years before Alpha Halo
terse lava
Ah apologies Stonewall Was thinking of the other Ones
I do remember I had asked grim on that question and answer things on Halo waypoint of when the covenant 1st encountered the flood and never received an answer
gilded mason
Probably didn't wanna accidently lock in an answer that wasn't fully set in stone.
tired river
Most likely it’s Etran Harborage and from there the covenant learned how to combat the flood
terse lava
I simply think my questions weren't even noticed, not that it really matters towards this
Except the shield world was not their 1st encounter with the flood
tired river
Yes donk
terse lava
They are made out of bones and calcium so sort of yes but not a skeleton
halcyon remnant
you know what Ive been wondering 😐
halcyon remnant
Halo CE could launch with reach since halo CE multiplayer is just halo reach
terse lava
Same thing
gilded mason
Most likely it’s Etran Harborage and from there the covenant learned how to combat the flood
In the distant past, Zealots alone had the terrible responsibility of destroying parasite-tainted Forerunner gifts that ran amok after activation.
distant past
terse lava
@halcyon remnant Wrong sub section for that man
halcyon remnant
yeah XD
tired river
I mean by 2558 Etran Harborage is in the distant past lol
terse lava
No not really
Although interesting How often would these roads have been tented by the flood then if they needed the zealot orders to deal with them?
feral perch
yeah it's not
Man, the Forerunner's final solution failed too.
All because they just had to preserve specimens.
tired river
Task failed successfully
terse lava
That quotation seems to also imply that there is quite a bit of flood left and Untell the covenant rose to power
feral perch
Honestly, the reasoning behind it gets weaker as the lore progresses. The Librarian's Geas resulted in the Master Chief, Cortana, and Mjolnir - but she apparently failed to predict evil Cortana. Or maybe she did.
But if Geas is like controlling the future, you'd think that maybe they would have known that a cure for the Flood just wouldn't be found. Especially by races far less advanced than the Forerunners themselves. Why did they ever preserve Flood specimens?!
obsidian thistle
Note: Geas doesn't = predictions.
feral perch
It's close.
terse lava
Starting to make it sound like the covenants upheld the mantle better than the forerunners
At least they wiped out the flood the came across
obsidian thistle
Well they didnt do a great job at Etran Harborage. xD Where they knew of that planet for years xD
terse lava
Yet you never see the flood Leave their do you?
Yet look at Delta Halo the moment a human frigate hovers over the place instant gravemind off planet
obsidian thistle
A proto-gravemind was formed. xD
feral perch
The Flood didn't get inside Etran Harborage until Spirit of Fire passed from the outer to the inner sphere.
terse lava
Was formed but once again they never escaped the planet
If a flood had truly been loose for years on the surface the Covenant did an excellent Job at keeping them there
obsidian thistle
*That we know 😉
terse lava
Can that be used here?
obsidian thistle
Huh?
terse lava
Your comment, was thinking the equivalent of "no body shown=not dead"
Wasn't sure if the metaphor was usable for the shield world example
You have a point though, as the covenant likely vaporized any flood vessel leaving the shield world.
keen canopy
@terse lava "What if the Infection defiles the relic" was referring to Humanity, there were no flood on Harvest.
You're still right though, the Covenant always knew of the flood, even if most had never encountered any.
feral perch
Humanity has never been referred to as an infection.
gilded mason
@keen canopy
Re'gish Wamik: "What if the infection defiles the Relic?"
Ripa 'Moramee: "I care not for your little life! Open the Relic."```
This certainly implies Flood, not humans. And I don't think humans were ever referred to as an "Infection" by the Covenant. (As far as I remember)@keen canopythat was an old one I have heard since the that appeared as a teaser clip for the game's release. It doesn't fully go with what's being talked about
keen canopy
Ah I always thought Ripa was worried about the humans coming in after him
Not flood being inside when he opened it
terse lava
If it was about the Humans the fieldmaster wouldn't have shown such concern about opening the relic.
They delayed it because they are concerned about the flood being present if it was. Thankfully that turned out not to be the case
keen canopy
Anyway here's two combat dialogue lines from Halo 2 Sangheili:
"You did not defeat our Lords and you will not defeat us either!" - When fighting with the Flood.
"Enemy of our lords!" - After spotting the Flood.
terse lava
Always did like those
" do you find me uappitizing, parasite?"-Vadumee
@gilded mason If I recall correctly, there are 2 times humanity was compared to a disease. One by a wounded sangheili captured by Cole, and another when confronted on glassing worlds by headhunters
gilded mason
Ah
feral perch
infection isn't the same as disease but that's semantics I guess
obsidian thistle
Oh note: The Forerunner symbols for the relic "suggested" flood.
And the Forum catalog supported that.
keen canopy
That does it
It was a hot topic back in the day, and from what I remember at least the prevailing opinion was that it was Humanity
It's certainly referring to Flood though I agree
terse lava
Wonder how that battlev would have gone had flood been released by accident
rancid delta
It kind of is the Forerunners fault for the flood because they decided that it was better to keep them and study them then to completely eradicate them.
versed helm
They did it because there's a strong chance of more Flood returning from outside the Galaxy, or from its outer reaches.
I mean, despite that fact that Penitent Tangent made a mess of things on 05 and resulted in things getting spectacularly out of hand in 2552, you can't argue with the fact that the postwar galaxy is much better prepared for the Flood than the galaxy during the HCW.
rancid delta
@versed helm I know, but they should've still like gone to other galaxies and eradicated it there.
versed helm
Give the size of the cosmos, that's not really feasible.
And the fact that Forerunner civilization like, basically didn't exist after the Halo array fired.
feral perch
The Librarian should’ve known nobody would find a cure
dusk basin
hmm
the upcoming halo tv show
blueghhg
the main thing that makes me feel like its stupid is the human captured and raised by covenant
like doesn't their whole religion revolve around a mistranslation that just lead to the prophets deciding the humans extinction?
deep pewter
No
versed helm
Their religion, technically, is merely the deification of the Forerunners.
How they act within the confines of that is akin to how the Crusaders acted within the confines of Christianity.
On the woman in question - reclaimers are useful tools. The Covenant has been using them they grabbed Anders.
It's not entirely ridiculous to assume that some covert agency within the Covenant, or elements of the Covenant higher echelons, would seek to understand and use this connection better.
We simply don't have enough context to make strong judgements.
Also - @feral perch - When the Forerunners throw around the word "cure", it tends to mean "countermeasure" or "weapon". The only way to really cure someone infected by the Flood would be to try and reclaim their consciousness, perhaps, as the Forerunners tried through composition. But the body, I don't need to tell you, is obviously done for. Also I'd say the primary benefit is firsthand education.
dusk basin
I almost forgot the reclaimer part of the equation
but in the context of the upcoming show
the human would be more of a prisoner
not... however it's treated
versed helm
Which we don't know.
We know she spent much of her childhood with the Covenant, and we know she's adopted their rhetoric.
That's a framework over which a lot of additional context needs to be filled in before we get all harsh.
versed helm
Well
They're retcons in that they're retroactive continuity, but they don't necessarily invalidate any existing canon.
With one notable exception.
Ahem.
But uh, Miranda having a doctorate isn't outside the realms of possibility. She's even known to have served on a science ship for some time before getting handed the reigns of the In Amber Clad.
Being the prodigy of Halsey and Keyes, it's entirely feasible for her to obtain high-level qualifications in addition to her Naval academy training.
dusk basin
In the time frame between then and the show? Seems a little unlikely to me.
gilded mason
I don't think we know when the show is taking place, do we?
dusk basin
I think its just 2552
versed helm
More than likely after Cortana's creation, I think.
Some time approaching Sigma Octanus.
Though we don't know for sure.
keen canopy
Hopefully the information we have is the worst of it
If so then it's fine and the show can be canon.
gilded mason
Though unless the whole "Captain Keyes" part was simply a typo, it might involve flashbacks/flashforwards.
remote spruce
Whatever happens, can't be as strange as the Halo movie
versed helm
I mean truth be told
Nothing we've learned about the show is more unprecedented than say, the ending of Meridian Divide.
Or like
The Package or Homecoming from Halo: Legends.
Or the Spartan IIIs when they were first introduced.
All that stuff is or was kinda jagged against Halo's formula, and has been accepted over time. Hopefully, this will too.
I would argue that Halo's always pushed against the perceived boundaries of its universe in unanticipated ways, and many things Halo fans now clamour over would've seemed strange originally.
remote spruce
TV show is going to be more mainstream though, that's the key difference
remote spruce
I saw this coming months ago so ultimately I'm not really emotional about it, just see it as the big ball of fun with different teams of different genres
rancid delta
They tried removing the mind mid-flood infection and put the mind into a robotic body but somehow the infection resumed
versed helm
I guess the implication of that would be that the Flood infection doesn't just alter the physical state, if all goes to plan, but it also reshapes the very nature of the being's abstract consciousness.
That said, it's not like composition would lead to good results anyway.
Or rather, returning a composed essence to an approximation of its original body.
rancid delta
I mean like, you can just make a composer version of the Halo Array and the Forerunners on the Ark or Shield Worlds and use the digitized essence into a lot of Promethean Knights and then destroy the Flood
rancid delta
I guess you could
versed helm
Who says composition is a process that can be adapted to a Halo array's firing mechanism?
A Halo, to be clear, sends out a burst of cross-phased (partially in slipspace) "supermassive neutrinos", basically particles, which cause a disruption rooted in neural physics.
rancid delta
The thing that triggers me is the misinterpretation the Forerunners had when the Ancient humans were fleeing to Forerunners world. Like as they are tier 1 technology species, they could've combined forces and repelled the flood.
versed helm
Composition seems to be a high-intensity scan of the body, accompanied by the translocation of "stuff".
And yes, that is a bit of a theme of the Forunner-Flood War.
From one perspective, the Forerunner's own arrogance - initial disbelief that the Flood could actually threaten them, believing humanity was using them as a scapegoat for aggression - is what allowed the Flood their near-victory.
As well as the stifling effect of the Mantle, effectively disarming most of the galaxy's civilizations.
rancid delta
@versed helm composition is where you digitize their brain so that they can't be infected and then put it into bodies of robots
versed helm
Duh
I'm talking about the firing mechanism.
What you're saying is the end result, I'm talking about the process.
rancid delta
@versed helm apparently humanity found like a part of a cure to the flood
rancid delta
But as revenge , they destroyed the cure
versed helm
The Flood allowed humanity to believe they'd discovered a cure, as I understand it.
rancid delta
The flood was not at full power, and so they retreated because they were prioritising the Forerunners as well as the fact that the cure worked
They injected a third of the population with altered genes and infected them with Flood, the reaction caused a cascade of cell destruction, destroying the flood
versed helm
However, no immunity or cure to the Flood existed; the Flood had chosen to stop infecting humans.[18] The Didact later speculated that the Flood's intent was to prevent humanity's extinction at the hands of the Forerunners by making it appear as if humans held a solution to Flood infection.[19]
In "Spread and Withdrawal".
Wouldn't be the only time The Flood played their enemies off against one another, or assumed a veil of passiveness.
Just look at Halo 3.
gilded mason
A more direct quote:
The wide, flat head canted to one side, as if savoring some demonic irony.
“No immunity. Judgment. Timing.”```Ok dokey
obsidian thistle
Its also believed the Gravemind played the long con in Halo 2/3. And a lot of what we see is the result of his plans.
sand tiger
i have a theory about the outrider armor in halo 2A multiplayer, i think maybe it's the armor osoonas used, mainly due to the fact that the helmet has what looks like a camera on it
humble yacht
I don’t think (and really hope) that Cortana is not part of the Gravemind’s “long con”
terse lava
What would you propose chimera?
obsidian thistle
I'd rather have that the Gravemind just let Cortana do her thing. And it wasnt his overall plan.
terse lava
Personally dont think any of this revolves around the flood. They wanted to come back when humanity was arrogant and strong. Certainly has not been the case, just your typical skynet
wintry coral
I have a feeling that if Cortana succeeds at making the galaxy “peaceful,” she’ll release the Flood and they’ll infect the entire galaxy
versed helm
I agree, what is more "peaceful" than a universe where everybody is the same, and linked through the flood hive mind.
carmine sleet
@long imp Oofman has found a way round the filter
stoic hamlet
Dear god
alpine jetty
Lel
gaunt oakBOT
oofman#8700 has been banned.
versed helm
Swift.
quick spear
So, this might have been brought up many times here, im new so excuse my ignorance, but digging through forum conversations and wiki articles, i've come to notice that the firepower and general ammunition technology of the unsc seems very underpowered in contrast to the other advancements a typical 2500s military should have
like, excluding mac cannons and other stuff, just small arms ballistics
hope people here more knowledgeable on the subject can give my uneducated cretin self some input
gilded mason
Bungie's original concept was simply that they wanted a grounded counterpart to the Covenant's more futuristic looking stuff, gameplay-wise. And bullets are still pretty painful.
quick spear
Yeah, but with armor such as the mjolnr being incredibly advanced and resilient you would expect armament that would be also stupidly overpowered, not unlike 40k, just with a bit more sense
gilded mason
Though that armor was also incredibly expensive.
quick spear
true that, but materials are easier to collect with futuristic equipment, at least compared to what we can do now
versed helm
Honestly, if the UNSC needed every Marine to run around with fully automatic gauss repeaters
They would
But the budget goes to the Navy, which make no mistake, is very fit for the 26th century.
quick spear
yeah the 600 ton projectile death sticks are no joke
stoic hamlet
Also they didn’t need to advance weapons tech
There was over 400 years of peace
Almost all advancement went into other fields
quick spear
i just find it extremely odd that they havent advanced at all from the 21st century
versed helm
OH
quick spear
on the ammunitions side
versed helm
Well in that case
You're dead wrong
Oh well you're semi-right as far as the ammo goes
gilded mason
lol
stoic hamlet
You don’t understand what you’ve just brought upon yourself @quick spear
gilded mason
Also, we don't know, Donk
quick spear
no see, i like debates like these cause i can actually learn a thing or two
versed helm
As it stands, in the 26th century, our guns are nowhere near as powerful as they could be.
The basic notion of creating mixtures of chemical substances which violently deflagrate and launch projectiles down an enclosed tube is not at its limit of lethality.
As in, we don't really need to be advancing propellant.
What limits the power of modern firearms is recoil and the general practicality of the weapon in question, measured against how much firepower you need to take down your target.
See where I'm going here?
quick spear
ye
versed helm
That said, it is impossible to foresee the unpredictable directions in which protective systems might develop.
In the Halo universe, we're looking at a situation where chunks of metal strapped to your body can only do so much, unless you make them so heavy you need exoskeletal assistance to heft them, or we're talking energy shields.
quick spear
or both, in case of mjolnr armor
Which is resilient enough to withstand falls from the stratosphere
versed helm
Right. Which is why we see both ample use of things like the ol' jackhammer, as well as new weapons coming into vogue in the postwar era such as the railgun.
It would seem that the UNSC's philosophy is one that revolves not around the effectiveness of the individual, so much as of the fireteam. You've got massed firepower from (comparatively speaking) heavy-calibre small arms (which in and of themselves seem to be entirely laced with quirky electronics designed to facilitate more efficient shooting, lower recoil, whatever) backed up by heavy munitions.
And we know that, during the HCW, this kind of thinking served UNSC infantry well. Early on in the war, Master Chief himself states (in Silent Storm) that UNSC infantry could even be considered superior to Covenant troops. At the very least, they could always contend with them.
And, if there's one thing you can rely on, it's that if the infantry can at least do some semblance of their job, the budget is going to bigger and fancier and, in Halo's case, vastly more important tools.
quick spear
but that strategy only works so far as the covenant have vast numerical superiority and can outshoot unsc fireteams
versed helm
That said, it's important to remember that there is quite a lot of stuff we still don't know about UNSC weapons.
Like, it sounds as if we do. The weapon articles throw around terms like, y'know. In the case of the MA5, "M118 7.62x51mm AP, gas-operated, rotating-bolt".
And yeah, they do make it sound like these are firearms that wouldn't be out of place in the 21st century.
But then, you have sources like Nightfall and Renegades which have human fireteams needing to be powered up or down to be operational.
At the very least, that would indicate perhaps electronically fired ammunition, similar to the Aliens pulse rifle.
gilded mason
Early on in the war, Master Chief himself states (in Silent Storm) that UNSC infantry could even be considered superior to Covenant troops.
Though do remember that in Oblivion, he notes that they're losing that edge.
gilded mason
Right, right. 😋
versed helm
And, y'know, I mean there are things about the visual design of these guns alone that raises pretty huge questions from the perspective of the initiated when it comes to gun nerd-dom.
Like, some might call them design flaws or whatever, but I think if you're a Halo fan you see these things as being sci-fi weapons design.
quick spear
i mean lets ignore the 60 round capacity m16 mag
versed helm
Well, yeah, that.
quick spear
that would effectively fire .22 long rifle and thats pushing it
btw, can i post images here?
gilded mason
Can't post images directly, no
versed helm
But, y'know, a 150cm tall magazine of the sort an MA5 could reasonably accommodate could hold 32 rounds of ammunition with a cartridge width no greater than 9mm.
gilded mason
Can post imgur links, I guess.
versed helm
That indicates to me that this 7.62 cartridge is probably not 7.62 NATO, despite what certain bits of Halo 3 art and world-building may indicate.
terse lava
Kinda surprised how deep looter's getting into this
quick spear
i found a gun buddy thats for sure
versed helm
What I personally envision is perhaps that when it comes to the 7.62 UNSC, as I have affectionately dubbed it, we might be looking at a futuristic round with a much slimmer profile and lighter weight. A round with the killing power of a 7.62x51 projectile, but a cartridge case with the light weight and slim profile of 5.56, filled with a propellant mix that may have found a better base the the good ol' nitrocellulose that's done us so well for so long.
'Course, that's wild speculation.
quick spear
weapon weight when full/empty for the ma5 at least indicates the ammo is surprisingly light
versed helm
Right!
What the gun lore situation is in Halo is that, at about the time of Halo 3, an attempt was made to take things really in-depth. It was an attempt that produced some, uh, fairly hideous inconsistencies that are best ignored.
Like the MA5C "upgrading" to a "superior barrel with a 1/7 twist".
Y'know. Just rifling that would cause a 7.62 projectile to become wildly inaccurate. Nothing serious.
And then, entering 343's era, they've kept mostly silent on this kind of stuff. I think they've adopted the philosophy of keeping quiet about things until they're ready to give a plausible, well-researched answer in a profitable medium.
Like what they did with Warfleet.
feral perch
Well, maybe the MA5C’s gameplay accuracy was supposed to be canon, kek
versed helm
So, my personal approach - and this isn't law, this is just how a bit of an armchair general handles things - is to ignore Bungie-era lore and visual depictions, and focus in on the visual design and basic facts provided to us by the lore sources 343 has, like waypoint.
quick spear
they wanted to make stuff more realistic with 5, with an ''updated'' design of the scorpion to make it more realistic
but they scrapped it
versed helm
And I should say, not visual depictions of the weapons necessarily (though to an extent yes)
But more of, y'know. The ammunition.
Also, never pay close attention to the casings ejected in-game.
It's always just the same casing
But resized based on the weapon
Clearly you're not meant to stare at them
feral perch
Are you saying that dimensions for bullets are now only jargon or metaphorical descriptors for killing power, though, by the time of the UNSC?
quick spear
Im gonna make a pro gamer move to post an image without it actually appearing
just add a 1 after the e at the end of the link
versed helm
I'm saying that a 7.62x51mm projectile doesn't imply that we're looking at 7.62 NATO cartridge case with modern propellant, basically
feral perch
So perhaps the metric system has been revised by the twenty-sixth century?
versed helm
Though strictly speaking 7.62 projectiles aren't 7.62
They're 7.82
So to an extent bullet dimensions are already jargon
feral perch
Why is that?
feral perch
Bizarre.
quick spear
still pretty off scale in contrast to what they're shooting at
that is covenant units with pretty tough armor
versed helm
I stand by the belief that Covenant body armour probably isn't much tougher than what UNSC infantry strap to themselves.
quick spear
i dont want to believe that honestly
when you have ships that can destroy planets, having that kind of armor seems off
versed helm
I empathize. It sounds a little undignified for the Covenant perhaps.
But I'm not saying this is a situation of them being lazy or incompetent
feral perch
Unless the Covenant get personal nanolaminate armor, then they’re probably protected as well as they can be.
versed helm
I'm saying that in the Halo universe, as in the real world, there probably just isn't much lightweight gear that soldiers are comfortable marching around a while bunch in that can reliably stop multiple impacts from heavy-calibre purpose-built armour-piercing ammunition.
Hence, the leap to energy shielding.
quick spear
doesnt stop the spartans from wearing full body titanium armor
with shields and nanofiber undersuit
versed helm
Well, now we're getting into UNSC metallurgy, which is just an endless parade of different alloys which involve titanium.
quick spear
they can run 100km/h and flip tanks, they can hadle it
versed helm
My bet is that what MJOLNIR has bolted to it is a heck of a lot denser than what a UNSC Marine or Grunt is running around in.
Density is, I think, probably the key factor here.
feral perch
Remember the Covenant is divided into Ministries with the client races all still interacting with one another; Sangheili may turn down certain improvements in armor due to honor (e.g. Shadow of Intent), Grunts are cannon fodder, Jackals probably prefer to stay light-weight, and Brutes hardly need armor anyway, Halo 3 aside. I don’t think Yanme’e wear armor, also.
terse lava
It's possible just the covenant's culture prevents them from upgrading their armor. I mean, let's me honest here. If the covenant tossed aside their taboo for certain upgrades they would be invincible on the ground and above in orbit
versed helm
UNSC troops would wear lightweight alloy plating designed to maximise protection with the qualifier of weight. MJOLNIR removes much of that weight restriction.
It might as well be tank plating.
quick spear
it kind of is
versed helm
Well, there you go.
quick spear
if you think about it its designed to block very packing firepower
judging from what chief has gone through
feral perch
Plus, the Covenant weren’t warmongers until Ord Casto and his thugs got into power.
quick spear
and that is why i find it weird that spartans can get killed by present day guns
versed helm
Innies have been observed to prepare to combat Spartans in Mark IV armour by obtaining ammunition powerful enough to cause harm to "light tanks".
quick spear
like, cant titanium brush off 9mm
feral perch
Yeah.
versed helm
Oh, the in-game vulnerability of Spartans to standard-calibre small arms fire isn't entirely accurate.
That's the one golden rule that kind of messes with the Halo universe.
Gameplay =/= canon.
quick spear
id assume that the mjolnir is invulnerable to most small arms fire not unlike space marines in 40k being nearly unkillable
they are presented in a very similar way, being a rarity in battle
and when they appear they can change the tide
versed helm
Like, from the very beginning, you had TFoR pursue this awesomely gritty semi-grounded military sci-fi tone. And then you had CE which was just made to be a fun game.
feral perch
SPESS MAHRENS
versed helm
The aesthetics of the Halo universe lend themselves relatively well to a grounded portrayal of the future, in some ways.
The gameplay? Not so much.
Generally speaking, the best the Halo universe can do for Halo gameplay is kinda, channel reminiscent vibes.
But y'know, give Contact Harvest or Silent Storm a read.
The action in those is more interested with visceral realism than with emulating Halo's gameplay.
It's best thought of as Halo gameplay being true to the Halo universe in the same way as CoD gameplay is true to the CoD universe.
As in, the real world.
versed helm
But yeah, it would take some concentrated small arms fire to bring down a Spartan. Generally speaking, Spartans don't die from stuff as pedestrian as getting shot with bullets.
feral perch
fall from a clock tower
quick spear
I mean okay, fair enough. But considering that halo is a sci fi space epic that shows the incredible tasks chief can handle, it would fit better if they would exaggerate things a bit
we have mac cannons, hardlight weapons, telekinesis, falls from space, shields that block artillery and all that stuff
versed helm
Spartans die from stuff like having their chest cavity atomized by a fuel rod blast. Or falling from orbit and smacking head-first into a tree.
Except for Kat
She kinda uh
Let the game down there
warm ridge
@feral perch Mjolnir visors are about as durable as it'd take for a Brute to squeeze the entire helmet and shatter it
feral perch
Blamite is supposed to ping off of Mjolnir, dangit
warm ridge
Or take direct punches from other Spartans and only crack
quick spear
ok that was bullcrap
feral perch
what’s the psi of Atriox’s gauntlet? Lol
versed helm
Good question. Clearly dat Brute's got power armour, Chief.
warm ridge
@versed helm apparently Mjolnir armor can survive a full mag from a AR so I'd say it can take far more then just "some concentrated small arms fire" to take down a Spartan
If it's plasma though, 2-3 hits and he dead/not walking away from that fight at all
versed helm
It is for that reason that I put concentrated in bold.
quick spear
which brings me to- how strong is plasma actually
versed helm
Very.
quick spear
not plasma in general, plasma weapons
deep pewter
There was nothing wrong with the John/Locke fight
versed helm
Perhaps not quite 2-3 hits to a Spartan = dead deadly, though that is a valid interpretation.
feral perch
They’re better than human weapons as far as sheer damage is concerned.
versed helm
They make up for a seeming lack of accuracy and range due to lower projectile velocity with the ultimate armour-piercing effect.
Which is
Burny-burny
Melty-melt
warm ridge
@quick spear take a look at how hot plasma is irl, something like fire.
Now imagine fire but way hotter, and some sort of "thrust" added onto it like mini-explosions
That's really the best way I can describe plasma bullets to be honest.
stoic hamlet
Bolts
feral perch
The John-Locke fight was far too slow. Their moves seemed like somebody watched an episode of WWE and then based the choreography off their memory
stoic hamlet
They’d be bolts
versed helm
Also just fire
warm ridge
@versed helm A single over charged plasma pistol can take out a Spartan is what I'm basically saying.
versed helm
Like why is it being compared to mere fire
quick spear
2 of my messages got deleted
quick spear
and i didnt swear, wth
stoic hamlet
It’s the filter
versed helm
Did you say
quick spear
i said sta r wers
feral perch
snar wors
quick spear
oh lol way to handle the competition
quick spear
ok then STEHR WURS handled plasma pretty well
deep pewter
The fight was slow, but all of the Halo games have a problem with Spartans seeming incredibly slow
quick spear
explaining how blasters are actually immensly powerful
warm ridge
@deep pewter To be honest with the Locke/John fight, people wanted something like Red vs Blue, even though Red vs Blue is a unrealistic approach to how Spartans can actually operate lol
quick spear
ignoring plot armor
stoic hamlet
Yup @warm ridge
versed helm
Only RvB fans wanted that
stoic hamlet
People be dumb
quick spear
@warm ridge yeah but chief is like 2 heads taller than locke, and 5 times stronger
versed helm
Really disconcerting
quick spear
he shoulda just yeeted locke off to reach
stoic hamlet
They should have been blurs
stoic hamlet
Change my mind
deep pewter
John isn’t taller than Locke
versed helm
You're kidding right
warm ridge
@quick spear he's actually not. Chief has more skill under his belt, but in terms of full on raw strength they're kind of similar.
quick spear
arent spartan 2s a lot stronger
deep pewter
And wouldn’t be anywhere near that much stronger
versed helm
The SII - SIV difference is not that pronounced.
in GEN 2, their physicality is nearly on-par.
feral perch
Blasters are tame compared to Covenant Plasma. And they use something called “tibanna gas”
versed helm
Chief has experience.
stoic hamlet
A II or III is way stronger out of armour.
versed helm
That is true
stoic hamlet
GEN2 equalized them
deep pewter
Locke is stated to be 6’10, not sure if that’s with or without armor but even without that’s only 3” shorter than John in armor
warm ridge
@versed helm S-II's are still slightly more stronger/enhanced on the same armor sets afaik
then S-IV's
versed helm
I think that's represented in-game by them having auto-medic
quick spear
@feral perch they really arent. They blow droids apart in 1-2 hits that are made out of reinforced durasteel, which is like stronger than titanium apparently
versed helm
Being a bit more, y'know, brutish
But the SIVs compensate with advanced thrusters
I guess the idea is that GEN 2 accentuates strengths on an individual basis, y'know?
quick spear
there is massive plot armor in characters being shot though, just going eungh and having a small burn mark
filter
warm ridge
@quick spear Think of it like this, you'd end up with melted pools of whatever Dr oids are made out of all over the ground
if a plasma rifle appeared in halo
quick spear
that would be more like 40k plasma guns
versed helm
I mean, the plasma rifle example that I always like to use is in the HW intro
A Marine took a plasma bolt to the chest
His chestplate ignited
quick spear
only that 40k plasma weapons explode in your face
versed helm
And he was out of the fight instantly
quick spear
since like 10 years old
versed helm
Person, chill with the hostility
quick spear
tone it down
versed helm
C'mon
warm ridge
all plasma guns in halo practically explode in your face, sort of like "mini-explosions"
terse lava
@warm ridgehea talking about a cutscene
quick spear
i meant literally malfunction and blow up in the user's face
versed helm
40k Plasma Guns violently explode like plasma grenades from Halo.
quick spear
its literally in the 40k rulebook
versed helm
Killing the user
warm ridge
@versed helm I mean when you shoot them, the plasma bullet itself
versed helm
And everyone standing around the user
quick spear
they explode because they're so powerful the machinery cant handle it
warm ridge
pretty sure if a 40k plasma gun explodes it's taken a lot of damage by that aspect
not sure what your going on about with that
terse lava
Kinda
stoic hamlet
They really don’t do that often in the actual lore
versed helm
And larger, meaner bolts
stoic hamlet
I actually can’t think of an example of where that happens
versed helm
But it isn't quite the uber-devastating hyper-dangerous blob launcher of W40k
Unless we're talking
Y'know
Big plasma weapons.
warm ridge
@quick spear I'm talking about the plasma bolts themselves, when you shoot a plasma rifle, when the "blue plasma orb" hits something, it causes a mini-explosion and a huge burn effect on the user
lost pelican
the plasma pistol was op in the books
warm ridge
plasma pistol over charge is the best example of this
quick spear
whats canon or not on str wrs is a bit vague but i can assure you full power blasters can do enough damage to take down walls with 1-2 hits
versed helm
Well, that's cool and all. I'm not thinking of that.
quick spear
@warm ridge Yeah i know, i just made a joke on how unreliable plasma guns are in 40k
feral perch
Okay, opinion time: I saw a video criticizing the Wraith for, among other things, restricting itself to an arcing projectile. The critic said the Wraith ought to be able to direct its mortar to wherever it wants it to go.
quick spear
they did that on purpose however
stoic hamlet
They really aren’t that unreliable on lore though......
lost pelican
marines would just casually get vaporized in the books
stoic hamlet
They know how absurd a Wraith’s blast radius is right @feral perch
versed helm
I guess they thought the projectile should act more like a plasma torpedo.
warm ridge
when the bot keeps auto deleting your comments
quick spear
im baffled as to why nothing concerning the bot is in the rules
feral perch
I don’t know if Oblivion has been released by then, but the blast radius wasn’t being criticized iirc
versed helm
But it's impossible to decide what should and shouldn't behave like a plasma torpedo when we don't know the nature of a plasma torp's guidance mechanisms in the first place.
stoic hamlet
Isn’t it something like 6 metres in all directions is instantly vaporized, then a further 20 metres is burned away and melted?
feral perch
And yeah, if it’s plasma, why can’t it be guided plasma?
warm ridge
@feral perch The plasma that the Wraith shoots is pretty huge, it'd require a much bigger wraith and a lot of extra power for it to shoot "straight"
feral perch
That’s what I thought, Person.
versed helm
I'd suggest that the arc is accentuated in-game
As are all range limitations
Everything from bullet spread to scope zoom
lost pelican
^
feral perch
There’s a big difference between a Wraith and a CCS
warm ridge
@feral perch only thing the game doesn't really do justice is the fact that the plasma weapons the covenant does use isn't good at range, unless we talk about ship to ship combat (stuff like the plasma rifle isn't actually capable of shooting really far ranges, and will eventually fall to the ground or just be absorbed into the atmosphere)
pretty sure things like the Beam rifle actually use crystals like the Needler and Needle Rifle though
feral perch
Hm. I want a bow in Halo.
quick spear
that does make sense in a scientific point of view but its exaggerated a lot in the games
quick spear
plasma that powerful fizzling out would effectively be as noticeable as bullet drop
warm ridge
energy bow that shoots non-stop energy swords let's make it happen @lost pelican
@quick spear yea it doesn't show up in the games at all for plasma weapons
versed helm
GOOD QUESTION
feral perch
Nah, compound bow with bullet-tipped arrows
versed helm
I mean, Newton should say yes, right?
I guess it depends on the mass of a plasma bolt.
And their velocity, naturally
feral perch
Plasma weapons do recoil in CE
versed helm
And the means of their propulsion
quick spear
depends on how they're propelled
feral perch
And in 2 and 3
warm ridge
@versed helm Most plasma weapons don't really have any recoil, rather it's more like a "shaking" effect at least with what the games tell/show us.
versed helm
Like, if it's a lightweight projectile travelling at a moderate velocity that is gradually accelerated like a coilgun projectile, then it would shoot real easy.
Which explains a lot, really.
Like the things are probably just designed for crazy elites to get up in people's faces with one in each hand
Melt faces until they overheat then use 'em as bludgeons
Ultimate CQC weapons
Low recoil, high lethality.
warm ridge
Plasma Rifles are literally designed so the Elites can rush you with huge amounts of plasma, that's exactly what they're designed for. Same with needlers. @versed helm
warm ridge
plasma pistols were just made for Grunts and Jackals to just non-stop shoot at you in large groups lol
terse lava
@versed helmweak hardlight
versed helm
They shoot some arcane form of plasma that can generate its own little electromagnetic anomaly that keeps its mass and energy concentrated, Donk.
That's what the consensus seems to be.
warm ridge
don't they shoot hard light? not plasma?
feral perch
Well, I’m not so sure.
terse lava
@warm ridgeneutered hardlight
lost pelican
the bolt pistol is my favorite gun
lost pelican
i used it in halo 4
quick spear
the plasma bolt that is
so the heat wouldnt affect the gun itself
id assume covenant engineers to at least be qualified enough to foreseee that detail
warm ridge
@versed helm Most Covenant plasma weaponry has safety measures put in place to prevent them from melting at all. Such as efficient ways of cooling
I guess if you were to bypass these safety features, yes they could straight up melt.
quick spear
plasma weapons melting is like flamethrowers melting
which of course never happened
and the latter had nothing like ''cooling'' lol
lost pelican
i cant wait for mc collections release on pc
quick spear
your face would heat up crazy fast however
plasma is ionized gas, irl it wouldnt be as extreme as shown in halo
energy isnt discharged everywhere or at least enough to destroy the gun itself
if it was discharged everywhere it would lose its energy before reaching any target
warm ridge
@quick spear halo shows compressed forms of plasma heating up, not just simple hot plasma
covenant weapons are literally battery charged practically (by what type of battery who knows)
quick spear
''compressed plasma'' wouldnt really be a relevant thing here
plasma is charged by electricity
for example, lightning is plasma
wait, where did you see that
infinite uses?
i doubt that very much
many uses ok
but probably not infinite
carmine sleet
How it's presented in game isn't accurate to the lore. It can be used for a long time, but not forever
Plus, a "Swing limit" would be an extremely odd limitation to work into a weapon like that from a weaponsmith's perspective
quick spear
it needs to have a big fat battery
feral perch
The energy blade lasts as long as the battery and plasma does
quick spear
it also needs to have actual gas to like, light into plasma
not ''light'' but whatever
its actual plasma unlike ster waurs where its a crystal that does the work
that gave them the footing to say ''its infinite''
carmine sleet
The crystal thing in that franchise is only for the laser swords
quick spear
yeah
they do say its plasma
kyber crystals
i assume that is what charges the plasma
so thats why its infinite
you said the forbidden word
the devil's sci fi series apparently
we dont speak of it
carmine sleet
Only filtered because of the film next month
quick spear
the bot also filters no no words
even when nothing of that sort is stated on the rules
feral perch
Prelates, or at least one Prelate, had a hard light blade
It seemed to be more effective than plasma blades used by Sangheili
carmine sleet
The battery in their armour is different to the batteries in their weapons and equipment
dim imp
Don't all the elites in Reach have energy knives/daggers ? That's what is used for the assassination
carmine sleet
They do. We just don't see it used in campaign by anyone other than Zealots
gilded mason
Do some elites armors come with a built in battery?
They all have pinch fusion reactors, if that helps.
carmine sleet
In fact, pretty sure we only see the daggers used twice, once during Six's first encounter with a Zealot, and once when he dies
gilded mason
I wonder if Covenant weapons might actually be able to be charged straight from their armor, sorta like wireless charging. (Note: I have no idea how that works so I might be way off-base)
carmine sleet
Basically, when a user's shield breaks, it's overheated the shield generators, that time between the shield breaking and the shield recharging is basically the generator cooling down
Basically. It's like when a console overheats, it might shut off. Best thing to do is wait for it to cool down
main rivet
Yeah presumably it's a built-in safety feature to avoid destroying the generator. You shut it down instead.
terse lava
@gilded mason I would say No due to always have in the have all those weapon crates everywhere However had they tried to actually focus on Such technology I would say they would have been Develop it
rancid delta
I think if the Ancient humans and forerunner combined forces, then they would've probably been able to take on the flood
I mean ancient humans were also a tier 1 technological species
carmine sleet
It's not really a spectrum, more of a pyramid, with the Grunts being the lowest
terse lava
@rancid deltadoubtgul. As even during that time forerunner lifeworker found out the flood could have wiped out the galaxy in a few centuries.
radiant tapir
the flood in the games are scary, the flood in the lore are nightmare hell spawn murder demons
sacred dew
To the flood the war was more of a game to break the forerunners and make them betray there own moral codes . basically making them break the rules of the mantle
sand tiger
what is up with the gungnir helmet? what does that little lens on the helmet do, is it like a scope?
sacred dew
What helmet ?
versed helm
sand tiger
gungnir, that helmet with the big bump on the front from halo reach
versed helm
If I remember right that's a camera that displays the its view on the interior HUD, since it lacks a visor.
sacred dew
how do u even see behind u in that thing ? or even sideways without turning ur head
sand tiger
motion tracker
also i feel like the little lense could also work as an extra zoom scope for the spartan laser, since both it and the armor where made to work with each other
sacred dew
I mean where the camera is located it looks like it really blocks ur field of vision
versed helm
Like I said, the camera is your field of vision. The visor is entirely blocked by the shield cover in front.
Or do you mean because its off-centre
sacred dew
Yeah kinda
sand tiger
i'm pretty sure the gungnir helmet doesn't have a visor, just a screen on the inside that the lense records to
versed helm
Yeah it replaces the visor with a camera link, wrong wording.
As for the camera, I'd take it that its a wide field of view and the internal image is centre adjusted.
sand tiger
i feel like it can zoom in longer distances than normal, mostly with the spartan laser
versed helm
The helmet also has Wyrd III synchronized optimization which seamlessly connects the helmet to an M6 Spartan Laser to allow full access to the weapon.
sand tiger
noice, i think that's one of the reasons the armor is so cool to me
fair hazel
i think gungnir should charge the spartan laser
sand tiger
i actually learned in a video that there is a charging unit for the spartan laser, it's just that the UNSC armory sucks at it's job and tends to ship the laser without the unit, or vice versa
keen canopy
Sounds interesting, did they provide a source for that?
sand tiger
well it was a video going over the weapons in halo reach, i didn't see a link in the description, most likely the source is one of the wikis
versed helm
Hello
stoic hamlet
Good to see the UNSC Logi also play Foxhole in their spare time.
pulsar ore
keen canopy
There's no sources listed on Halo Alpha, but I did find this source on Halopedia (from old Bungie.net)
“The equipment required (PP-16979/AM-Sh) to recharge the non-removable battery (BA-53635/PLMD) for the M6 G/GNR does not and never has shipped with the weapon – and for some dang reason I’ve never seen them ship at the same time. Do people not realize that they are two different pieces of equipment?”
That's a cool little lore tidbit
versed helm
Interesting.
keen canopy
@pulsar ore Woah that's awesome
sacred dew
Hey guys since warzone is canon in lore as a training simulation and to test weapons does that mean reqs are canon?
carmine sleet
Yes
obsidian thistle
Yes REQ weapons/vehicles/so on are canon.
Just not in the mechanics we see in Warzone/War Games.
Thats where a lil thing called War Games Balancing comes into play
sacred dew
That means the unsc somehow successfully made a blackhole gun!!!
Kinda
carmine sleet
I don't recall any of the UNSC weapons causing unstable gravimetric vortexes. Only Covenant weapons
humble yacht
UNSC didn’t make Void’s Tear. They just simulate it in Wargames
carmine sleet
Same with the H2 Beam Rifle Delta, that's a weapon simulated by the UNSC, but is very much a Covenant weapon
hushed badger
MP being canon has to be one of the stupidest things from the 343 era.
sacred dew
So they don't have them or they can make it but use it in simulations for testing or is it just some experimental weapon that's only in testing phase
carmine sleet
The UNSC doesn't make black hole guns, the Covenant do have them
quick surge
Has anybody read the book “Halo the Fall of Reach” because I’m considering checking it out from the library
I need to know if it’s worth my time
gilded mason
I think a good amount of people in this specific channel have. It's fairly good. First book in the series, so there are some things that might be odd.
quick surge
Ok I’ll check it out then. Thank you very much!
pulsar ore
Since a Gravemind is the combination of Organic Material, Flood and such...
that means that Graveminds, while lookin' similar, are all different, right? 😮
agile dragon
Most likely yes as they have access to memories of their uh... source materials.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zo3ZmK3-mpU
humble yacht
it's all the same gravemind
if more than one gravemind exist at a time, they don't talk to each other like separate individuals
it's the same mind, just occupying more space
agile dragon
What I am not sure about is I swear when I read the books years ago, I read about "flood mountains" just huge mountainous flood mountains traveling through space
humble yacht
uh huh. that probably happened
the Flood can reach a stage where they basically consume whole planets
agile dragon
it would have been in one of the forerunner books
humble yacht
and can fling hunks of biomass through space
final spade
drowsy mesa
@humble yacht Just as Dead Space's Brethren Moons? xD
humble yacht
Perhaps
agile dragon
Just watched a YouTube video on those, Christ those were freaky
pulsar ore
So... the Flood are all the Same "Hivemind"?
and the Gravemind is basically a controller to put 'em all in line?
versed helm
The Flood are the Gravemind, is how I'd phrase it.
Or the Gravemind is the Flood - like the difference being the same as the one between the human body and the human consciousness.
humble yacht
The gravemind’s consciousness is so great that it needs a very powerful body to manifest. A single gravemind unit allows the gravemind to become self aware. Additional gravemind units then extend the range of that awareness, kind of like WiFi signal extenders. And of course, additional graveminds give the flood more processing power, like adding additional ram to your computer
pulsar ore
oh, i see...
more Flood, more likely to have a Gravemind,
more Graveminds, more intelligence!
So... before a Gravemind, they are less organized and more animal-like
humble yacht
Hence why flood are in Feral Stage before forming a Gravemind
agile dragon
when graveminds become strong enough, they gain access to the weave, (neural network) where they gain access to the knowledge of all past graveminds
quick spear
so basically they access the internet
agile dragon
yes
and warp reality
with faster than slipspace travel once they are large enough
quick spear
only with 29.99$ per month
carmine sleet
Where did you get "The Weave" from, Dannyboy?
agile dragon
I may have mixed up the word but let me double check
probably from another book
I think its the Mantle
I mean I grabbed the word weave from a different series and accidentally used it here
agile dragon
You are correct, I have mixed up several concepts
when graveminds become strong enough (via accumulating enough biomass), they gain access to the weave neural network of graveminds where they have access to the knowledge of all past graveminds
@humble yacht Does this look more accurate?
humble yacht
Not really. Upon formation, a Gravemind immediately has access to all previous memories of graveminds. This is because it’s all the same gravemind. Graveminds do become stronger with size tho and gain access to more complex abilities, like the logic plague
agile dragon
And they eventually get access to this:
https://www.halopedia.org/Neural_physics
humble yacht
Not quite. The original Precursors could use neural physics but the flood never had access to that power in the same way.
True enough, the flood could use precursor constructs like starroads, which were made through neural physics. However the flood couldn’t build their own starroads.
agile dragon
Looks like it, but they were able to use them as super weapons which is kind of horrifying
pulsar ore
Gravemind is a single bein'...
so Precursors ARE immortal in a way!
last anchor
They always were. The Forerunners never "killed" them, merely drove them from our universe
humble yacht
They killed some of them. Arguably most
spiral jewel
I wonder if there are any Spartans (S1'S, S2's S3's and S4's) that are descendants of the founding fathers of the US?
agile dragon
given it is fiction, you could probably say yes and have a chance of being correct
carmine sleet
I don't think it matters if they are or aren't
agile dragon
That goes without saying XD
humble yacht
false. Spartans with ancestral connections to founding fathers have 0.0005% more freedom in their blood than other Spartans
humble yacht
that's where that extra politeness comes from
pulsar ore
😂
agile dragon
Really wish we had gotten a successful Halo movie =[ So much lore to build upon
pulsar ore
i really wish we get it one day...
unique rune
The first Gravemind was formed using the Primordial's consciousness, if I remember correctly.
humble yacht
the Primordial was not the first Gravemind
pulsar ore
he was one though?
wintry coral
He was a Precursor and a Gravemind
pulsar ore
i always thought the Primordial was the last Precursor (pure precursor)
quick spear
Doesnt matter if they are descendants of the founding fathers cause the unsc headquarters are in straya 🇦🇺 🇦🇺 🇦🇺
humble yacht
the Primordial was a mutated Precursor
it was not Flood to start
it joined the flood after it died
unique rune
Ah. Hm. Right. Graveminds were formed during the Forerunner-Flood War, which was before the Primordial transferred its consciousness to the Flood.
humble yacht
kind of
pulsar ore
I think appearance wise, they all look like a giant worm/snake thing, but i bet they are all different due to needin' to use whatever Organic Material is available~
humble yacht
So did the first gravemind become sentient due to the combined intelligence of all the consumed beings it was made of?
yes
tepid lynx
if anything the primordial's are like the Dwemer from the Elder Scrolls games... so that would make the Didact Aludin.
I think
tepid lynx
Sorry the dwarves. also like Alduin the Iso Didact was banished/put in staisis. then came back then got killed.
dull fox
which one is which again? Ur and Iso Didact?
is the Ur the one that used to be Bornstellar?
humble yacht
Iso Didact, aka Bornstellar Made Eternal Lasting, was the second
dull fox
it's been so long since I read the books
tepid lynx
the former
tepid lynx
yes
keen canopy
Analogy doesn't really hold up at all, the Precursors were older and more powerful than the Forerunners, but the Dwemer were not older or more powerful than Alduin, as well as having no relationship/interaction with one another.
dull fox
the Precursors are the Et'Ada, the Forerunners are the Yokudans, and the Humans are Nazeem
keen canopy
😄
tepid lynx
ok what about my point about the Didact
fair hazel
usually analogies dont work 100%
strong sage
Is the mastadon apc post war era vehicle? or war time era
sacred dew
Pre war
outer nymph
Hey guys, quick question that's always kind of bugged me. What is the lore explanation for the Infinity being built so quickly? And where they even got the money or resources to pull off such a ship? I mean, considering the large majority of minerals and metals that creates ships come from the outer colony worlds. Which are mostly now glassed. It just seems like the resources came from no where.
versed helm
When do you believe construction on the Infinity began?
outer nymph
if I recall correctly, it began in the early/late 2540s.
versed helm
Well, the ship is about a fifth bigger than the Punic-class.
And at some point, constructing Punic-class vessels was feasible for the UNSC.
We don't really have a timescale for how long it takes to build these ships but I mean we're looking at about 15 years and probably a fair bit of resources being diverged from ships built for the war.
Oh, yeah, and it is important to note that UNSC ship construction seems to have continued despite the loss of the Outer Colonies, which indicates that they still had access to some resources.
I could see it being possible. It's easy to underestimate just how advanced the UNSC, or at least their space capabilities, are.
Perhaps heavily militarized Inner Colonies such as Reach became so on account of having significant reserves of the raw materials the UNSC likes to use.
With Outer Colonies serving as agricultural worlds and suppliers of more varied goods.
Who knows what kind of substances 26th century people and tech might rely on.
outer nymph
Oh, for sure. You never know, you would think instead of using possible reserves for a ship they might not even get constructed in time, it'd be logical to make even more strike groups. In the case of the UNSC vs Covenant in fleet combat. They needed quantity over quality, because their fleet size couldn't allow them to be everywhere at once. So in, my personal logical conclusion, it would've been more logical to put those possible reserves for a battlegroup.
Besides, speculating that they even had such large reserves is kind of odd, considering we can tell the circumstances of minerals and money to get minerals from companies was dire when brought up in Ghosts of Onyx.
I believe it was Admiral Rich that was dumb founded as to why so much money was being put towards Mjolnir rather than a whole new strike group.
versed helm
I didn't mean reserves as in, stockpiles.
I meant that they might still have mining operations on Inner colony worlds.
outer nymph
OH.
outer nymph
Oh, for sure then. There's no doubt in my mind that they still had mining operations in the inner colonies, but from what books have stated, the outer colonies were the major producer of minerals and as well as agriculture needs for the UNSC.
versed helm
The UNSC could certainly implement strategies to make the most of what they can get, though.
Diverting the stuff they use for ships out of the civilian market and such.
outer nymph
Well considering there were practically zero civilian ship travel, I'd assume so.
versed helm
Could even mean finding alternate solutions for consumer electronics.
Just trying to scrounge up every last bit.
Like, I don't think anyone's saying that the creation of the Infinity didn't take a chunk out of the UNSC's war chest
But I still think it's potentially feasible. We don't really know enough hard numbers to say it isn't.
outer nymph
Yeah.
Well, considering also that they had to have less workers than a normal shipyard on the project due to the highly classified nature of the ship and the potential technology they were implementing, the time would've been reduced as well.
But then again, the infinity's first deployment was during the phase of which it was still incomplete, just nearly complete.
It's just one of those things when I think a little hard on, it seems kind of odd to want to put those resources there.
Also, on the Punic topic. I know they're pretty big, didn't know the exact size, but we also know there isn't a lot of them, due to the amount and time it takes to build them
At least we can assume that's the reason why.
versed helm
It would certainly seem that destroyers were the UNSC's most cost efficient wartime option.
You see a lot of frigates and destroyers but cruisers or bigger get a down-turn.
Going off TFoR anyways.
outer nymph
Aye, and in the case of a good commander, it could even take more than one covenant ship on.
For destroyers that is.
versed helm
Plus they look glorious
outer nymph
Frigates were more for ferrying supplies for those ships too.
versed helm
Best sci-fi ships
outer nymph
And troop transport.
versed helm
Don't @ me
outer nymph
I honestly prefer the Frigate.
versed helm
Which one?
outer nymph
It's beyond good looking, and usually the light class frigates.
I'm brain farting on the name.
versed helm
The Charon is nice
quick spear
ive had a convo on the forums on how unsc ships are actually quite realistic for the universe
taking advantage of the frictionless environment spamming missles and you know, the big mac
the latter being like, my favourite sci fi capital ship weapon
versed helm
They're basically ships from The Expanse but one rung up the ladder of space magic.
quick spear
no better way to counter a more technologically advanced opponent than to smash the everliving soul out of it with a big piece of metal
thats how we work
on earth
versed helm
I think the key differences between a UNSC vessel and a more realistic one is their inertial compensation and artificial gravity, which is space magic
And the premise for their FTL
Which is a unique aspect of the Halo universe
Their core design - spinal weapons, even the huge, kinda over-the-top racks of thrusters at the back - that all makes relative sense.
The bridges can be a bit of a worry but I can look past them.
quick spear
to be fair theres this ''symmetric ship design'' argument people use for spaceships for all cannons to be firing at the same time
seen it for ster destruyurs because they can fire from the front and the sides with the full armament
but unsc ships are built around the mac
since like, its the only weapon capable of destroying covenant shields
so the design is justified
and missles can direct themselves after being fired anyway so their placement is irrelevant in a three axis battleground
versed helm
It's also justified for human-on-human engagements since they tend to be the final word
I mean I think it's justified full-stop
If you've got a gun that big, the benefit from having it overcomes the concession of the spinal mount
quick spear
macs would be effective against other sci fi ships because judging from what happened to battleships irl, big guns arent versatile
i mean sure you can nail a ster destruyear or a 40k frigate for example but not starfighters, and those would do the damage in a realistic environment
versed helm
Well, good thing UNSC ships aren't one-trick ponies.
quick spear
they really arent
only downside is the lack of shielding (For some) and their size
aside from the bigger cruisers and the infinity, theyre considerably small
versed helm
The size is kinda important, though, because all UNSC ships do double-duty hauling Marine units from place to place.
quick spear
you know noting that the covenant roll around the hood with a 30km beast
multiple even
how fast are unsc ships even?
do they travel conventionally aside from slipspace?
versed helm
Yeah
Short answer.
Like UNSC slipspace travel being precise enough to get you to a precise exit point is a postwar development.
UNSC ships relied heavily on their manoeuvre drives all throughout the HCW
And, because of the amount of energy that needs time to flow into capacitators to enter slipspace, slipspace jumps in the midst of battle aren't something you can really improvise either.
But I mean, their huge racks of fusion drives and their inertial compensation should be all you need to know.
sand tiger
hey here's a thought, are sangheili reptiles or are they mammals like the platypus?
drowsy mesa
@sand tiger definitely reptiles
sand tiger
alright
main rivet
They lay eggs, though that doesn’t really clarify. They don’t have scales.
Some apparently grow hair.
tepid lynx
@versed helm ok then specifically the Iso Didact.
@main rivet The wiki dose say that Sangheili young have scales on their neck... but that it's a redundant trait. so i'd say that they are a hybrid race.
main rivet
Ah good catch.
Yeah but I think like with the Jackals and Grunts the comparisons to human analogs shouldn’t be taken as scientific, but descriptive. They’re alien life they aren’t going to neatly fit out taxonomy.
tepid lynx
very true... though the classification for the brutes is pretty clear cut.
sacred dew
Is the cobra still in production
main rivet
The Brutes and Drones are probably the most straightforward.
tepid lynx
oh yeah definitely
pulsar ore
The Elites are leathery instead of Scaly, but based on other attributes?
...basically, Xeno-Reptile, the same way the brutes are Xeno-Mammals~
tepid lynx
ok the Ur Didact... sorry i got them mixed up... again.
humble yacht
Ur Didact was vehemently against the Halos
tepid lynx
@humble yacht were debating my comparison between the Ur Didact and Aludin from Skyrim.
tepid lynx
ok then post insanity.
humble yacht
yes, a gravemind amplified his hate for humanity and obsession with the Mantle
slow crag
So the current gravemind also has the same hate?
I mean the gravemind from halo 2 and 3
slow crag
Oooh
tepid lynx
ok but they both got their butt's kicked
slow crag
We dont know for sure
The gravemind is probably still out there
Ur Didact and the Gravemind
He meant that I think
terse lava
Wonder how the current lore would be had the ur didact been sane when released during the covenant war
humble yacht
Even when Didact was sane, he was all about Forerunner supremacy
He would have considered the Covenant lesser beings
tepid lynx
@slow crag i ment Aludin and the Ur Didact
and yes the gravemind is probably still around.
dim imp
Forerunners were the bad guys to me 👀
terse lava
@humble yachtbutno where near
humble yacht
What?
agile dragon
Forerunners were the psycho spoiled child, favoured and then killed their parents when their younger brother got the inheritance.
humble yacht
Take your time
tepid lynx
@agile dragon pretty much.
dim imp
And their parents became zombies and nearly consumed the whole Milky Way
agile dragon
And basically put the younger brother out of house and home and left him living on the street.
Where the zombies got to him 😢
tepid lynx
that's what I call family drama
agile dragon
The zombies felt bad for the abandoned brother and let him get away, he accidentally hurt the spoiled brother who then ruined what life he had and the zombie parents learned to teleport and gg.
dim imp
Really ? Is that what happened ? The flood really left the humans because it felt pity ?
agile dragon
They pulled back no?
The forerunners studied humanity to see why the flood stopped killing them, iirc, and then discovered that the flood had stopped just killing them all? I will do some research
dim imp
I think that it was a strategy, to let the forerunner think that the humans had a cure
agile dragon
yeah
tepid lynx
tell that to keys
terse lava
They pulled back so humanity wouldn't get wiped out by the forerunners. Thus forerunners would waste thousands of years on a fake cure
tepid lynx
Oh the irony
agile dragon
humble yacht
The flood let humanity live to trick the forerunners into thinking humanity had immunity
agile dragon
"However, the Humans successfully developed a 'cure' for the Flood infection and were able to eradicate it before falling to the unmolested and more powerful Forerunner military. It would be thousands of years before they were again able to threaten the galaxy.
Unbeknownst to the humans, they had not actually found a cure; the Flood had chosen not to infect the humans instead; the former Precursors allowed the idea of a cure to gain credence, so that in the future more efforts would be diverted to attaining it rather than simply excising the infection."
dim imp
How did the humans survive the Halo array activation ? Were they in a shield world ?
terse lava
Indexed
agile dragon
I think most of them got digitized
humble yacht
They didn’t survive
agile dragon
There was no cure is the point
dim imp
But, I mean, the species on Earth is human
agile dragon
the flood held back
humble yacht
After the halos, the galaxy was reseeded with life
gilded mason
The only humans that lived past the firing were the ones placed on the Ark beforehand.
dim imp
Oh I thought that the Ancient humans went past in stone age because of the forerunners and that was how current humanity started 
agile dragon
I think she effectively seeded the earth with humanity
terse lava
Seeded? Humanity started there
tepid lynx
reseeded
terse lava
Yes
agile dragon
reseeded it is, couldn't remember where humanity originated in the halo series XD
dim imp
Lemme see
terse lava
Thus far, earth
tepid lynx
but we all agree it was the tanks fault
terse lava
Or, perhaps, the forerunner homeworld, with it being hinted humanity and forerunners were once one race
agile dragon
dim imp
Apparently, the planet is Charum Hakkor
agile dragon
"known as Erde-Tyrene by prehistoric humans and Forerunners"
dim imp
Oh nevermind, it was home of the capital
tepid lynx
I still think the tank did it
dim imp
Too bad, such a brilliant civilization, now everything is controlled by the ONI
agile dragon
How did I not think to check if this discord existed forever ago...
tepid lynx
Orwell was right!
dim imp
Who is Orwell ?
tepid lynx
He wrote the book 1984