Also the huragok disappearing thing is kinda, like, not really specified. Doesn't the book just say they're gone? Like, they could've been swooped up by opportunists.
#lore-and-universe
versed helm
gilded mason
Ah, here we are.
How bad are they at swimming?
Not bad at all. Many clans were heavily seafaring.
deep pewter
I’m gonna go in with no real biases if I can help it
versed helm
Also
deep pewter
It’s been a long time since I’ve really seen any complaints about the trilogy, which helps
versed helm
In the post-Schism era
Causing a war on Sangheilios is easily equivalent to causing a war on Earth
It ties up a large portion of the species and has widespread rammifications
As we see
gilded mason
Doesn't the book just say they're gone? Like, they could've been swooped up by opportunists.
That doesn't seem really feasable when they were so plentiful.
versed helm
Not that plentiful.
I've never imagined the Covenant to be just swimming in them
I've always visualized them as important assets that weren't just handed out willy-nilly
A little like smart AI
Except comparatively more plentiful in that case
gilded mason
Though if a few thousand Huragok can be placed aboard the Ascendant Justice, strapped to bombs by Brutes without care, with one even given to a tiny Kig-Yar privateer ship manned by 5 other people, it certainly painted a picture that they weren't exactly jealously guarded.
terse lava
They could also build more of themselves
last anchor
That hasn't been retconned as far as I know so...
Actually didnt that happen in Glasslands?
Also that one Lucy shot is not dead because lore says if theres enough raw materials a "dead" huragok can be ressurected and restored.
Hence why the Brutes strapped bombs to em
terse lava
Think ot was mentioned in contact h.c harvest wasn't it?
sand tiger
so what ever happened to soran-066?
gilded mason
He disappeared into the woods of Reach a long while back, never to be seen again for a number of years. In the TV show, he makes a comeback as an adult as a privateer.
sand tiger
ah ok
versed helm
Wait
@last anchor
Where on Earth is it said that completely dead huragok can be rebuilt?
And how does the logic follow that, even if that is the case, a plasma-based explosive wouldn't render them too messed up to repair?
lunar condor
I mean they can just bs in 300 lines of forerunner magic tech on how thats possible
But i wonder where that is stated as well
dim imp
Huragok can do wonders from scratches, see the Chopper
It wouldn't surprised me that Huragok can rebuilt another destroyed/dead (dunno if they can be considered life form) Huragok
versed helm
Well, they are sentient.
If they brains are destroyed, it stands to reason that they're gone for good.
dim imp
Do they have brains ? :°
dim imp
Huragok are artificials, they are quite special
According to Halopedia
the inner workings of an Huragok's internal macroscopic biology remain a mystery
versed helm
Huragok can also repair each other if they have access to at least ten percent of the damaged individual's original mass.
From the same page.
Well, something makes me doubt that even 10% could reliably survive having something equivalent to a plasma grenade detonate while attached to it.
And that lore does come from the Halo Encyclopedia and the Bestiarum, two sources I'm not particularly trustful of in the modern climate.
Especially given how a burst of 7.62 ammunition was totally able to destroy one beyond repair in Glasslands
Say what you want about the out-of-universe factors, it may well serve as a retcon.
I mean
Have we ever actually seen a huragok be repaired from 10% remaining mass?
dim imp
Apparently this info from also comes from Halo Encyclopaedia which is considered as official
versed helm
it doesn't gel well with ODST, or virtually any actual appearance of them we've seen
What do you mean "considered as official"
dim imp
We know that gameplay doesn't always match the lore
versed helm
Because I know for a fact that it's considered as dubious as heck by Halopedia high-ups
dim imp
The Halo Encyclopedia: The Definitive Guide to the Halo Universe is an official guidebook of the Halo universe
versed helm
Primarily for the reason that it copied a lot of early Halopedia headcanon
But also because it says some really dumb things
dim imp
It may be dumb, but it is official 🤷♂️
versed helm
It may be official, but it's not recent, or relevant.
dim imp
So what should we trust ?
versed helm
As in, relevant to the modern canon.
Well, I don't think there's a clear answer.
If we go off Halopedia's canon policy, it's basically case-by-case
As in
Seek answers
From 343
And 343 has no canon policy for us
I think they probably consider canon to be more of a development aid than something we should be overly concerned about, sometimes.
But that's the cynic in me
So really
Draw the line wherever you need it
dim imp
If we considere the leack about the netflix serie about halo, yeah, they don't really follow the canon
versed helm
🙄
This again
All I'm gonna say is that if you give them the benefit of the doubt and don't trust everything Halo YouTubers spout
dim imp
This again
Sorry, I just came back from a 6 months break with this server, I dunno what happened here x)
versed helm
Which is absolutely mired in controversy
Basically we've got a bunch of casting info from an upcoming Halo TV show that I think might've just started shooting
And uh
There's some spicy memes in there
A reclaimer woman who's been raised by the Covenant in some capacity
Miranda Keyes having a doctorate
And uh
dim imp
That's the most weird thing i've heard so far
versed helm
Jacob Keyes being cast as a black man
dim imp
Also miranda
versed helm
Now all three of those things have, I think, been overdramatized.
carmine sleet
They went with who they thought was the best actor for the role. They didn't cast the actor because of his colour
dim imp
Eh I have to go, I may come later soon :[
versed helm
The first thing is almost painfully possible - a straight-up necessity if any entity within the Covenant wished to understand the exact relationship between humanity and the Forerunners.
Like, it could be so many things. It could be Truth himself trying to learn more (after all, he did know to capture humans in Halo 2 and 3 to operate the rings).
it could be some renegade specialist, or specialist group, pulling an ONI
The second point is, in my eyes, also entirely possible if we're taking the "Miranda is a prodigy" route.
Perhaps she obtained her qualifications in the latter stages of her academy training, and her early posting to a science vessel.
And yeah
The situation for the third point is as Slipstream mentioned.
That's my standpoint anyway.
Keyes being a man of darker complexion isn't an awful lot different to any other visual inconsistency in the Halo universe, really.
It just has that political charge behind it.
sour glacier
I dont know how they cant find an actor and actress that look like the two
You cant say they chose the best actors for the roles when they look nothing like their roles
versed helm
I guess we'll have to see.
main rivet
I wish they’d just say they went with those actors because they wanted to rather than the whole “best actor for the role” spiel.
It’s always been given scrutiny when that rationale is trotted out to whitewash characters and it’s the same problem here.
warm ridge
keys being classed as a black man
oh god it's horrible already
that film is going to fail hardcore after hearing that
all films who mimic characters the wrong way, even down to the skin color, fail horribly.
Mirandsa Keyes having a doctorate makes sense
carmine sleet
Person, did you not see that I said
They went with who they thought was the best actor for the role. They didn't cast the actor because of his colour
versed helm
Yeah.
I mean, the Miranda Keyes thing.
I make a point of being indifferent about the ethnicity stuff
Because it pleases me
warm ridge
@carmine sleet then they clearly aren't going with who they think the best actor is at all either, otherwise it'd be a white dude, because you know, the character is also white
versed helm
That is a bit of a superficial viewpoint
warm ridge
@versed helm do you know what a doctorate is
it's the highest degree awarded to a person by a college
versed helm
Whoah
hallow willow
As long as his nameplate says “MY NAME KEYES” I have no complaints
warm ridge
miranda having it makes perfect sense, she's literally the daughter of doctor halsey and jacob keyes
versed helm
I do know what a doctorate is
carmine sleet
John has the right idea
warm ridge
of course she followed her dad's route though
versed helm
How did I indicate that I didn't
I agree with you that Miranda could have one
That's what I was trying to say
Why are you always really randomly hostile
warm ridge
@hallow willow inb4 name plate is "MY NAME IS JACOB MEMES"
versed helm
Person, would you entertain the idea that perhaps the gentleman cast to play Keyes embodies some other aspect of Keyes' being really well
And that is what ultimately won the day in regards to casting
Characters do tend to be more than their ethnicity.
carmine sleet
Indeed. Characters are interesting because of who they are
versed helm
As I said before, I'm pointedly indifferent
I just wanted to see how Person would respond to that question, really.
Honestly, I would agree with that perspective, Slipstream, were it not that decisions like this carry obvious weight and always open to the door to uncomfortable questions.
To be ignorant of that weight is almost to make a point, in the current climate.
And I think at the end of the day, the only people you can really blame are those responsible for the climate.
versed helm
Is there anything from Halo CE through 3 that isn't iconic to someone?
dim imp
That's why it is an "issure" for most people I think
If it was a less important character I wouldn't mind that much
versed helm
Doesn't help that there's illustrations of Keyes in sources are recent as Mythos, either.
Or that the casting for Chief is virtually spot-on with what we understand his appearance to be.
It is puzzling.
It is puzzling as to why it had to be the Keyes family.
I guess, maybe, they had a very ingrained idea, possibly relating to what they wanted to do with Halsey.
dim imp
Funny fact is that how they said "we are doing our best to be as close as possible to current lore" or something like that
I don't feel that right now
versed helm
Though I do want to make it clear in saying that a diverse representation of the UNSC is a lore-accurate representation.
versed helm
Well, yeah.
What I'm saying is that if there was a representation of the UNSC that showed a large number of characters
All of whom where white and male
I would be furious
The diversity of the UNSC Marine Corps is legitimately a trait espoused in the CE manual. It is iconic.
The point I'm making
dim imp
Yeah I don't mind about marines and stuff, just don't touch iconic characters please 😦
versed helm
is that if there's one franchise that didn't need to go out of its way to show a forward-thinking stance on ethnicity
It's Halo. Because it's effortlessly shown it from the beginning.
Halo's universe has always been exemplary in how it portrayed the humanity of the future - it's incredibly uplifting to see such variation in people represented so matter-of-factly.
It's never gotten enough credit for it
So while it's difficult to fathom why they managed to cast Chief so well and did this with Keyes
It is equally difficult for me to see it as a shallow move based on trying to seem woke, as many detractors indicate.
dim imp
Let's wait and see 🤷♂️ we can't really do much
versed helm
That I agree with.
sacred dew
Because almost all of them died and the augmentations weren't worth it
serene rain
Wait, is Miranda mixed-race now?
dim imp
Apparently
carmine sleet
They do, they went with the actors they felt was best for those roles
serene rain
Uh, no. They went with actors to be woke. You can't just completely change the ethnicity of a (possible 2?) main characters, choosing the right ethnicity for preestablished characters is a casting pre-requisite.
You start with the pre-requisite, and then end with whose acting abilities fit the character best.
dim imp
But he said almost
I don't find anything saying that it is true though
They mostly had PTSD from the war but 165 members from the project survived
They got assigned to other fields within the UNSC
Apparently, there were up to 300 members of the project, so about less than the half died
stoic hamlet
Pretty sure Byrne was an ORION
Also, on the topic of oblivion, and the complaints, personally I feel the ending was the biggest issue. It didn’t have the gravitas it needed and I wasn’t sure what Denning’s intention was.
dim imp
He was possibly a Spartan-I
stoic hamlet
Yes
dim imp
We are not sure
stoic hamlet
Possibly so were the Marines in Contact Harvest’s prologue.
But that’s just a theory of mine with no real weight behind it
dim imp
More like an hypothesis than a theory at this point
stoic hamlet
An idea.
hushed badger
@serene rain You're not wrong.
sacred dew
Maybe forge or his father were Orion as well as
dim imp
Halopedia doesn't refer to him as a SPARTAN-I
stoic hamlet
Forge’s father was ORION I believe.
slow crag
Did his father survive the project tho
dim imp
Do we know anything about his father though ? Like his name ?
slow crag
Idk
dim imp
So we can't really tell if he was ORION or if he survived anything if we know nothing to start with
sacred dew
Yeah other than its why forge named his daughter rion which is short for Orion
carmine sleet
She wasn't named after the Orion program
sacred dew
Maybe was watching the halo canon video
carmine sleet
He's never said anything about her being named after the program either
versed helm
Agreed. @serene rain
polar elm
How does interplanetary communication work? I assume colonies that are light years away from each other tend to communicate pretty slowly but it appears that there's some other system in place. I'm guessing that they use ships traveling through slipspace to convey information for them?
dim imp
generally
Is there another way then ?
stoic hamlet
Post war communication is much better with some ships able to communicate instantly with other areas. I.E, Infinity to Earth.
dim imp
But... how does it work ?
stoic hamlet
Mostly it’s reverse engineered forerunner tech
polar elm
So is communication free for all? Suppose I'm a random dude wanting to check in with buddy on another planet, do I get to use UNSC equipment traveling through slipspace?
stoic hamlet
No
dim imp
I'm sure that you would answer with some Forerunner magic shenanigan... good work 343i
stoic hamlet
Most communication pre-and during the war was military or corporation only. During the war the Military had control of everything.
polar elm
To be fair, I'm still stuck in the Bungie era and I haven't found an answer. Perhaps it's under a rock somewhere.
Martial law?
dim imp
Even the Forerunner can't make things faster than light, they use slipspace
stoic hamlet
Yep
polar elm
Has it been touched upon anywhere?
polar elm
Okay. Will look into it.
dim imp
I don't see how invert engineering thingy can make you instantly communicate with another planet in another stellar system
stoic hamlet
Well, think of it this way
polar elm
Whoa hold on, new question. How did Admiral Stanforth get ships to rally at Reach? Those ships were out of system.
stoic hamlet
The UNSC has a crappy scooter
The Covenant had a nice-ish car
And the Forerunners had the latest model supercar. @dim imp
He rallied ships that were in-system
Hence the 48 hours timetable
If they had been out system it would have taken weeks or months
polar elm
I remember this topic being touched upon in Ghosts of Onyx, where UNSC and Covenant intercepted a signal being transmitted through slipspace.
dim imp
But you could still not communicate with radio waves faster than light, that is impossible to make anything faster than light
polar elm
Ah ok, my bad
stoic hamlet
Slipspace is a different dimension, so our laws and understandings don’t really apply.
That’s the best answer I can give you two
dim imp
Oh you mean they use slipspace to communicate ?
polar elm
Well yeah, that's the eventual answer no doubt.
Oh you mean they use slipspace to communicate ?
Haven't seen it used consistently. Just on Halo 2/Ghosts of Onyx.
spiral coral
Oh nice I guess I always thought of slipspace like being at warp.
What is the rate of travel compared to light speed?
polar elm
Many times faster, it appears
Well actually it's never been described a traveling a linear space
spiral coral
ahh
dim imp
We know that it took approximately 3 months to go from Earth to Installation-05 with covenant slipspace
spiral coral
so there wouldn't be magnification like warp 10 / slipspace 10
gilded mason
343 has said that different slipspace routes might be faster or slower, even if the real-world distance would imply differently.
dim imp
I don't know how many time it took from Earth to the Ark, maybe also 3 months but it was Forerunner splipspace
spiral coral
I love this chat btw. I am thoroughly enjoying learning halo more in depth.
polar elm
I kind of view it in the same vein as wormholes
dim imp
I saw someone use the example of the paper sheet
spiral coral
okay so not truly a straight line. I remember something about some routes being more optimal
gilded mason
I saw someone use the example of the paper sheet
The folded paper? Bascially a cliche at this point.
polar elm
They've even mentioned slipspace points at times to stick to well established routes.
It's basically the magic tape binding the (Halo) universe together so best not to question it.
dim imp
You draw a circle at the two opposite corner and you want to to draw a line
You can draw a line that take 200 ly or you can crumple it to have shorter line to draws but it is a mess
gilded mason
I don't know how many time it took from Earth to the Ark, maybe also 3 months but it was Forerunner splipspace
Using the Voi portal, about 2-ish weeks.
gilded mason
In Halo 3, they left November 17 and arrived December 11
polar elm
There's also improved times if you travel in the wake of a larger ship a la Halo 2 and Ghosts of Onyx
So, yeah, mostly magic tape plot device.
dim imp
No I don't think it is the size that matters but the technology used
In Halo 2 this is because Covenant slipspace technology is better than the one from Human
And in Halo 4 that's because Forerunner slipspace is far better
polar elm
In Ghosts of Onyx, a prowler followed behind a Covenant vessel and reached in a similar time. At least that's what I can vaguely recall.
Let me see if I can get a source on that.
"They had been caught in the wake of the Covenant craft and accelerated to many times the maximum velocity of any UNSC ship in Slipspace. A lucky break. They’d have never caught it otherwise."
- 1440 HOURS, NOVEMBER 3, 2552 (MILITARY CALENDAR) \ SLIPSTREAM SPACE—UNKNOWN VECTOR\ ABOARD UNSC PROWLER DUSK
But yeah, Covenant slipspace tech is much superior and Cortana did make note of how they were traveling faster while they were aboard Ascendant Justice, I think.
How does interplanetary communication work? I assume colonies that are light years away from each other tend to communicate pretty slowly but it appears that there's some other system in place. I'm guessing that they use ships traveling through slipspace to convey information for them?
Found a source for this in Contact Harvest. Harvest AI attaches her report to vessel departing for Reach.
versed helm
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
carmine sleet
No
What do you mean with the liquid biomass? Are you talking about when it dies?
That's likely done so more for a visual that's easy for the player to see
Check on Halopedia, nobody here's gonna remember how heavy it is
versed helm
True
unique rune
I mean. They've probably still got some kinds of fluids running through them. Maybe coolant.
Prometheans and Huragok are different types of entities, though.
I dunno what kinds of fluids would be running through Huragok. Lubricants, coolants, whatever.
versed helm
You people are speaking in big words
carmine sleet
The Huragok aren't artificial in the sense that Promethean constructs are. Huragok are much closer to being organic
silk ridge
@Smitty Absolutely
It mentions the Huragok fluid in Last Light- It is mentioned in the discussion between the Lifeworker and the Ancilla
Promethean constructs are held together by hard light anyways- lubricant would imply friction, but with hard light joints there isn't any
Engineers are probably engineered to be organic to be able to interface with other biological forms. The Armigers are meant to intimidate their opponents so are more robotic and unforgiving.
Enough long words @versed helm ?
dim imp
There are some Huragok specialized to work with biological forms but they are smaller and green, it is not a field known from all Huragoks
silk ridge
No however it is implied through gameplay that the Huragok have fluid and Prometheans do not. Ish .
dim imp
Yeah Huragoks are biomechanical
https://www.halopedia.org/Huragok if you want more info on Huragok
I think they look biological because of how they work with using gas to float
humble yacht
The forerunners were going for an artificial lifelike look with the engineers as opposed to machines
Why? Who knows
Probably
Different caste
silk ridge
You know the lore behind the guardians right? How they were oppression machines? Perhaps the Prometheans were the scalpel to their sledgehammer
Perhaps an experiment with genetics or lifeworking on humans?
humble yacht
For what?
silk ridge
Hmm maybe its like a Chakas/343 GS jam- because they could
Hmmm. Now that I think about it I kinda understand. Perhaps the Prometheans were created to assist the Forerunners with the Flood better than the Humans ever could, after the Humans "Devolution"
humble yacht
The prometheans were forerunners
They were a particular class of Warrior-Servant
They weren’t always machines
silk ridge
Hmmm. They had human DNA...
gilded mason
Though their machine form was created to combat the Flood, yes.
humble yacht
Didact bolstered his forces by composing ancient humans and adding them to his already existing forerunner forces
gilded mason
Ye
silk ridge
Halo 4 content my dude- Promethean knights were found to have ancient human DNA
gilded mason
Didact seems to be composed, or something like that.
Because promethean knights were created from humans like Chimera said
Some were.
Yeah
silk ridge
Perhaps both ideas are true- A mix of the two
humble yacht
The knights in 5 are considered to be composed forerunners
gilded mason
Perhaps both ideas are true- A mix of the two
What?
humble yacht
Composed human knights were only in 4, really
silk ridge
Human and Forerunner Knights
gilded mason
Human and Forerunner Knights
It's explicitly stated.
humble yacht
There are no half-human/half-forerunner knights
gilded mason
Oh, is that what he was saying?
humble yacht
I dunno
But just in case
¯_(ツ)_/¯
Honestly it would have made more sense if the soldiers were the forms composed humans took while Knights were the forms for composed Forerunners
I wouldn’t be surprised if the composer could be calibrated to a specific species
Flood combat units could likely create bio projectiles
Like the pure forms
Or throw spore bombs
Like in HW2
Suppression, maybe
spiral coral
Scouts?
humble yacht
Could be
silk ridge
Nah I just meant the Humans and The Forerunners could each individually be Knights. Not the hybrid deal
sacred dew
Forerunners like to get the job done I guess ?
terse lava
@versed helm crawlers were used in mass numbers to swarm flood hives and take on the brunt of any attack on such a thing
terse lava
Pretty much
versed helm
goodbye robodoggie
sacred dew
I always preferred the watchers
terse lava
Creepy little things, never seemed something of forerunner design. Reminded me.more of of you made cyborg pixie
low tangle
So this might be offtopic for the current discussion, but, do you think six is still alive?
gilded mason
No.
terse lava
......
gilded mason
He is dead. Forever.
gilded mason
Oh they did. The specific spot Six's corpse was at. Low intensity beam so that would be the only thing effected.
Odd, that.
terse lava
Hm, yes, indeed, that field marshal at the end next to the helmet was the same one killed in the campaign. He survived long enough to follow six, watch his warriors kill the human, then evaded them and ordered a glassing on the area
That's my head canon now
Actually, @gilded mason, wasnt it chimera.who thought a when back that there were multiple.field Marshall's on reach?
gilded mason
I have no idea.
feral perch
I think it's CIA who suggested that
terse lava
Oh yea, thanks, does make me wonder now though why there was a marshal there.
unique rune
Ya think people would take less issue if Spartan-IV had been designated as Orion-IV or something similar instead?
remote spruce
lol no
terse lava
Wouldn't see it making a difference. I dont think the problem was with what they are. But rather how they act
unique rune
Yeah, the way the act is a big part of it, but one of the things I always see brought up when people argue about Spartan-IVs is like... "they bring shame to the Spartan name" or "they aren't real Spartans", so I figured just not calling them by the Spartan name could make them... less contentious.
gilded mason
Though from what I remember, SIVs in the campaign acted very professional and no-nonsense. And then SpOps introduced Majestic.
versed helm
"WhAt Is AcTiVe CaMoUFlAgE lMaO"
gilded mason
so I figured just not calling them by the Spartan name could make them... less contentious.
Seems certainly possible.
versed helm
I mean I assume what happened to Hoya was a result of
"Well, we want to have drama with a Spartan getting his butt kicked, but we don't want to animate anything more complex than a dude getting shot and a dude running in"
gilded mason
lol
versed helm
The SpOps cinematics are all a bit that way
I mean just look how stationary Palmer is when she's fighting the Prometheans on Infinity
Just standing around
Glacking fools with her M6s
Punching them in the face
Not very convincing
If you tried to fight like that in-game you'd die
gilded mason
Wasn't she also killing Knights in single pistol shots?
feral perch
she plays on Easy
unique rune
"Guys look at the scenes we animated for the main campaign and the ship comba- oh wait where did our budget go"
versed helm
The ship combat scenes were delightful
I mean
Scene
I mean those SpOps cutscenes were really good every time it was just people having cool interactions
gilded mason
This SpOps discussion reminds me...why did Jul cut off Halsey's arm where he did? It was below the actual bullet wound.
unique rune
today on Unsolved Mysteries
versed helm
Oh, maybe the explosive ammo like splintered the bone
gilded mason
maybe it was a prank
versed helm
Lol. Maybe just a reminder that she is human skum
*scum
Wait
Surely there must be an explanation for all this
terse lava
Jul's last.words in halo 5 " it was just a prank bro"
versed helm
“ bro I was just kidding around take your war criminal back “
terse lava
The zealots had only fake blades, whole reason they all sucked
Were about to reveal the cameras
feral perch
The Zealots were just Yonhet in heavy suits
terse lava
....wonder what the human term would have been for them had they been in the war
versed helm
I think, everyone, her entire arm was amputated.
terse lava
"Gill heads"?
feral perch
M6H uses explosive ammo?
gilded mason
Palmer's kind of a jerk.
feral perch
Ouch.
terse lava
@gilded masonwas she not as tall as you thought she would be?
versed helm
I doubt Jul had equipment or personnel that can heal or repair a human injury.
terse lava
Yea, but funny
feral perch
Chief should have just consumed her with the giant soul-sucking maw that resides beneath his helmet.
versed helm
Honestly
feral perch
.... I regret typing that.
versed helm
It is totally fair for Palmer to have said that
terse lava
Jul to his army we can repairnhr, make her. Better then before...but I dont want to spend the gek
versed helm
I've watched enough Vet TV to know that soldiers are generally quite brutal to one another, no matter the circumstances
gilded mason
I doubt Jul had equipment or personnel that can heal or repair a human injury.```
Eh. That kind of thing would be pretty ubiquitous. Medical equipment for it would be available on ships as big as carriers if even smaller ships like corvettes had 'em.@feral perch....the hell?
versed helm
The fact that she outranks him is also a bit of a meme
feral perch
idk man
versed helm
And the fact that she's an ex-Helljumper
So seriously
Just deal with it
Helljumpers don't kowtow.
Nor do Spartans.
feral perch
It's even better if you watch that scene with 5x the facial animations
versed helm
The respect is implicit.
feral perch
the expression she makes before saying that infamous line is... Something to behold.
terse lava
Taste the cringebow
feral perch
lololol
versed helm
Honestly, it would not have been out of bounds for her to say something even more seemingly disrespectful
But to account for it with, like, a wink or a shoulder-punch
That's just the military mindset
feral perch
and then he crushes her windpipe
versed helm
She would know that Chief wouldn't want to be shown an overt degree of brown-nosing
Are you serious?
Don't know Ostral. I doubt a Covenant Ship would have medical equipment specifically for humans since Jul's Covenant consist of only Covenant species members. Human Weapons I could see Jul using for reverse engineering puposes.
feral perch
I crossed it out
versed helm
Dude, that's not even funny if you're slightly familiar with Chief's personality.
It's just dumb.
feral perch
It's hilarious
versed helm
And that sort of stuff is why valid points about stuff like this always get ignored.
People get uncomfortable when their bone-headed ideas get challenged
Then brush it off before they have to face up to their own stupidity
feral perch
It works if you totally ignore Chief's character development, which many critics of Halo 4 do.
feral perch
have I triggered you?
versed helm
Unless you expect Chief to react poorly for some reason
Which there is no way he would
gilded mason
@versed helm
N'tho's soldier used standard Covenant medical tools to heal Captain Richards in Hunters in the Dark.
versed helm
It's about Palmer
feral perch
Yes.
versed helm
And her perspective of how she should behave, and how Chief would would want her to behave.
Chief doesn't want to deal with suck-ups, that's one thing you can be certain of.
feral perch
Yes yes, criticisms of Palmer joking with Chief are childish. I wasn't trying to seriously contribute to the conversation tbf
versed helm
Well, hilarious jokes.
@gilded mason True. I guess the amputation served as kind of a scar or mark to her.
feral perch
wat do u mean, elites hate doctors maaang
gilded mason
"No, no. Jul. Cut it off. It'll be great as a prank later."
"You humans are weird."
versed helm
There are many reasons an amputation may be necessary. The most common is poor circulation because of damage or narrowing of the arteries, called peripheral arterial disease. Without adequate blood flow, the body's cells cannot get oxygen and nutrients they need from the bloodstream. As a result, the affected tissue begins to die and infection may set in
An HE round would probably result in that.
gilded mason
Sounds plausible.
versed helm
If it means what I think it does, lopping off the dead weight while maintaining the actual site of impact (which would probably be, like, a stump now) seems plausible.
But yeah, I have no doubt that Jul could've sought more compassionate and restorative treatment for Halsey.
And that removing her arm was a sort of power play.
A way to bring her to heel, almost. Reduce how efficiently she could operate.
gilded mason
Sounds plausible.
I imagine on the Mona Lisa.
Though I wonder how much data Smith sent back before things went pear-shaped.
versed helm
I remember on the Mona Lisa they had a video clip of Marine getting infected that occurred during the Battle of Installation 04.
terse lava
We do see what happens in CE, least with human ones
versed helm
From Chief's helmet cam, I believe.
terse lava
Poor bones, rottenn organs
versed helm
Depends how you define "poor and rotten"
If you mean "gross in appearance but reinforced with superhuman vigour and endurance"
Then yes
The Mona Lisa really lays it bare.
terse lava
@versed helmyea
versed helm
You've got humans getting either permanently or momentarily taken out of commission from things like shivs to the throat, getting non-lethally shot in the chestplate, getting sliced open
Then you have combat forms
Just absorbing magazines
Because their bodies no longer work the same way ours do?
They don't really seem to rely on their organs.
The FSC just sorta, sustains them.
Probably not.
terse lava
Hw2 logs said the infection form can not feel pain or fear...but the infected host can
Yep, fun tines
Yea, host fully aware of what their bodies are doing
terse lava
@versed helmyep, according to halo 3 and hw2
versed helm
Both living and deceased hosts can be infected, although the infection process is inherently fatal to living hosts. If the host is still living when initially infected, or at the very least has not suffered somatic brain cell death, the Flood is able to retrieve comparatively vast quantities of information from the host's memory, ranging from muscle memory to specific coordinates, access codes, flight protocols, etc.
Sayeth Halopedia
Just to establish a baseline here
I don't always take HP at face-value, as y'all know
terse lava
I am going with lore here from hw2, which says the host can feel pain
terse lava
Jenkins's case seems to be that he maintained some control. Nothing says the others were not in the same boat, just couldn't show it
versed helm
HW2 is probably the authority here though
It's 343's definite take so far on The Flood
terse lava
Yep, the Phoenix log combat form bio
versed helm
Yeah, you're right Ado.
Pretty horrifying.
Which gave us Terminal 9 in Anniversary.
terse lava
Yea
Funny in a way
Sangheili are shown a mercy of sorts as a combat form
Cant see what their bodies are doing
Being aware is far, far worse
versed helm
Pure Torture. As Pavium stated: "Do not let them touch you, it is said they will consume your body and mind!"
terse lava
Notice in that mission too, they leave behind those goliaths each time too
versed helm
They might not be able to be infected
But presumably it is possible to reduce their corpses to useful biomass
And they're hunters x2
I thought
Like two hunters folded into a single structure
terse lava
No, two hunters are made from one growing too large for one colony
Pretty much
A reason likely that hunters be one pairs
Easier to feed and maintain
And smaller
Would depend on their diet
Though the forerunner consuming ones were implied to be wiped out by the covenant
Eh
Nah
Vaporized
terse lava
Something I just realized from the forerunner series. The didact was crazy when released due to not having the domain to help re balance e his mind. However, bornsteller and his colleagues helped bring back the domain. Shouldn't this have connected to the didact, or did it and the emptiness there hindered any recovery?
versed helm
Noble six lives in cave like caveman
lament crag
Fact
rigid thistle
Do you guys know the song in halo CE that plays during a flood mission, kinda sounds like a siren?
Its the same song that appears in the halo 3 soundtrack known as "Gravemind", its more specifically known as shadows in halo 3, and known as shudder/infected in halo 2
Im trying to figure out what the CE version is called
It looks like it's just a sound cue that plays during CE and most of the original trilogys soundtrack, im curious if theres a name for it, i never see anyone referencing it
lament crag
Shadows
versed helm
Is it "Devils... Monsters"?
lament crag
It’s shadows
versed helm
Roger that.
Devils... Monsters is a sick name tho
Shadows is, however, a terrifying song.
versed helm
It still makes me feel more uneasy than like
Any other bit of music I can think of
That bit where it pops up randomly in the second mission when Chief activates the lightbridge is like
"Why"
"Why are you torturing me"
rigid thistle
I think it plays whenever Chief feels fear
lament crag
Just for a quick confirmation, the anniversary versions of the games aren’t canon right?
rigid thistle
It first plays in the beginning of the second mission of CE, when the life pod is crashing
Anniversary versions are the same, they just look different
unique rune
Pretty sure the Anniversary versions are supposed to be considered more canonically accurate.
rigid thistle
There are differences?
unique rune
For the most part, no.
Just the visuals are supposed to be taken as the "proper" canon representations.
Er.
Well, more proper.
rigid thistle
Ah
versed helm
Where there's direct contradictions, the Anniversary games should be taken as canon.
Like, for locations.
Or characters.
But usually in the case of guns, equipment, generic stuff, the assets exist side by side.
Like, both the CEA and CE versions of the banshee (I forget the types) were used during the Battle of Installation 04
unique rune
26A and 26B
versed helm
And Marines on Installation 04 apparently used CE classic, CEA, Halo 3-style and H2A-style BDUs.
Going off Classic, CEA, Terminals and Fireteam Raven.
Which makes sense but it'd be nice to see that diversity side-by-side for once.
Also I still maintain that in CEA what you're using is an MA5C, and that 60-round mags aren't a unique feature to the MA5B.
Generally speaking the design of a weapon does not limit magazine size, unless the MA5B was chambered in a different round (which it doesn't seem to be)
But then MA5 magazine sizes are a canonical and realism oddity anyway so ignore me
Some retcons/clarification around MA5 ammunition is sorely needed
rigid thistle
The change from 60 to 32 threw a lot of people off huh?
I miss 60 round mags, i mean we got 54 round mags (sort of) in halo 5
versed helm
Well it's more like
There's no way more than 20 rounds of 7.62 NATO ammunition could fit into any magazine that we've seen used with a MA5
So the ammunition MA5s fire can't be 7.62 NATO, despite what art from Halo 3 would indicate to us, or the magazines can't be as we've seen.
I mean, I dunno if you play CoD MW, but look at the magazines of the SCAR 17 or FAL. Those are 7.62 NATO magazines.
So, the hypothesis is that the ammunition, while it's got a 7.62 projectile, doesn't use a NATO cartridge case and propellant. Instead, it's something more futuristic, and slim enough to fit in a double-stacked configuration into a magazine with ~150cm of storage space.
And that the 60-round magazine is either A) totally different from what we've seen in game (thick enough to be a casket magazine, and long enough to protrude a little bit out the grip), or B) contains a different kind of ammunition, which the MA5B is chambered in.
Yeah, it's a real gun-nut issue. Don't think about it.
lament crag
Yeah I never really looked into that type of stuff lore wise
rigid thistle
Whats the halo AR based off of?
versed helm
Nothing, really. It's a hugely unique design.
it bears some moderate visual similarities with the F2000.
past olive
it wasn't based on anything although it coincidentally shared a design to the F2000
versed helm
But I mean, the fundamental aspects of its design are hugely unique to Halo.
The weird mag-to-wrist bullup configuration, for one. I mean, it's barely bullpup, it loads like a pistol.
For two, the cowling and ammo counter. Some guns have carrying handles or, in the case of the F2000, unique casing-ejection systems that give a little bit of barrel-top bulk.
But nothing like having, y'know. An armoured computer with its own little screen.
It's incredibly cool. A really unique direction that actually has a few design merits as a weapon, for all its sci-fi goofiness.
Its design hints at some very interesting advanced functionality under the hood. Or as other people with an interest in guns might say, is ridiculous and fanciful, but it's all subjective.
rigid thistle
I didnt know so much thought was put into the weapons in Halo
Thats amazing, all of this has been very insightful
So the halo ce magnum fires a 50 cal sniper bullet?
Thats what the wiki says
versed helm
It fires a .50 bullet
But not a sniper bullet.
.50 refers to the width of the bullet.
It's as wide as a .50 BMG cartridge, what a Barret anti-materiel rifle fires.
But it's not as long.
rigid thistle
Hm, i guess it would make sense
versed helm
It's 12.7 (.50) x 40mm. A .50 sniper rifle round (.50 BMG) is 12.7x99mm.
And also
Has a way bigger casing
Which means more propellant
Which means a bigger deflagration in the barrel
The .50 BMG does, I mean.
A longer round means two things - that it's heavier, which means it carries more weight, which means an increase in kinetic energy and that it retains its velocity for longer, and that it stabilizes better in flight, meaning that it's more accurate.
But those things don't matter too much for a pistol. What the UNSC was evidently going for with the M6 was something that had a lot of stopping power against un-armoured targets, and that could hit hard enough to be deeply unpleasant to someone wearing armour. It's meant to be easy to use and efficient at close range, basically. So you can get away with ballooning width without accounting for stability or trying to give the ammunition traits which make it more usable at longer ranges.
sand tiger
what was up with those to elite minors dual welding plasma pistols on cario station? where those osoonas?
terse lava
No, only majors can be given that rank
tacit crystal
What is the rank order for elites?
sand tiger
odd than why were two elite minors just duel wielding plasma pistols?
gilded mason
Maybe they thought it would be neat.
polar elm
Ship MAC guns fire a 600 ton projectile at 30 km/s. Now taking the example of UNSC Iroquois, a Halberd-class vessel, whose estimated weight is 1.8 million metric tons (from Halopedia), this would produce a recoil velocity of approximately 9 m/s or 32 km/h, which is kinda significant. Is it safe to assume that onboard NAV controls/AI automatically produce course and speed corrections to account for these? Sorry if this is super-nitpicky. It was just a fun little experiment.
remote spruce
Minor, Major, Spec Ops, Ultra, Zealot, something something (the main ranks)
I assume dumb AI and smart AI coordinate that
after all Pillar of Autumn had both
polar elm
What about the Shipmaster and Fleetmaster ranks? Or are they just designations for the sake of ships?
PoA actually never got the chance to install the dumb AI and Cortana took over those duties as well.
Keyes remarks upon it, I think.
remote spruce
oh yea i was referring to the infantry ranks, shipmaster is a different class of command
polar elm
Oh okay
Where do Stealth Sangheili fit in? Or is that just a way of referring to those with camo?
remote spruce
so wait what was Wellsley for, just the ODSTs?
gilded mason
Though Spec Ops and Zealot are a bit outside the normal "ranking up" structure, aren't they?
polar elm
so wait what was Wellsley for, just the ODSTs?
Seems like it
gilded mason
Nah. Ultra is the highest non-commanding rank for a Sangheili on the field
But anyway, generally rank structure in the Covenant is...complicated.
polar elm
Not to mention Honor Guards
remote spruce
officer vs major vs commander vs. flipyap
gilded mason
Hm. Filtered
...Seriously.
Is it that common word? Really?
It's a big Not-Kingdom with a multitude of factions and ministries, each with their own way of doing things.
remote spruce
every game = different fleet
except when it isn't
ideally it just be Halo 2 with visual differences like 3/Reach/4/5
gilded mason
Honestly, this filter stuff for spoilers for another game is a bit too much when also applying to a series with terms that also similarly apply, y'know?
polar elm
Wait what about the Xytan guy? Wasn't he some sort of super high ranking Sangheili?
gilded mason
Imperial Admiral.
polar elm
Good lord. This is getting out of hand.
So the major to ultra thing is kinda like NCO rankings?
gilded mason
¯_(ツ)_/¯
remote spruce
let's go with yes
slow crag
Y'all forgetting the sangheili rangers
versed helm
Rangers are more like a specialist branch though, no?
Like a UNSC Space Assault Battalion.
versed helm
Fair enough
feral perch
What other game, ostral?
terse lava
The ranks of sangheili are not that complicated. The ground troops b
Begin with minor, then major or commando. The major can be chosen as an ossona, a intelligence field officer, to gather info. For those who join t special operations, they can either continue as a normal special operations soldier or join fleet security and become a ranger or stealth soldier.
Eventually they can be promoted to commander. Back to the majors, once they are good enough, they can become ultras. These warriors will either give vows to be commanded as a typical ground unit, or do their own thing. After this, the beach widens.
An ultra can either retire, command a vessel, join the high council, or attempt to join one of the zealot orders. For the rank of ship masters, pretty straight. Begin with one ship, until you get promoted and become fleet master and higher to an imperial admiral. Zealots on the other hand, are their own thing and act as commanders, divided into various "chapter houses," with a field marshals being in command of these.
versed helm
Ok that clears things up. Dang you got halo knowledge
terse lava
Covenant and sangheili knowledge. I couldn't tell you anything regarding g humanity
sand tiger
what about the bobs? what rank are they?
terse lava
Non canon Easter eggs
humble yacht
Someone said they were made canon
Halopedia says the BOB ranger is now a Sangheili Ranger Commander
terse lava
As far as I knew, they were just an easter egg by bungie and named after a marathon enemy
sand tiger
maybe the bob is just a field marshel in gold ranger armor or some kind of field spy
humble yacht
Terrible spy
Honestly, what’s more ostentatious than gilded armor?
How you gonna be low profile when you shinin
unique rune
Clearly the gold colors are a testament to their ability to go undetected
carmine sleet
Bright armour is the worst for keeping a low profile
humble yacht
BOBs are stealthy because they reflect sunlight off their shiny armor and blind pursuers
silk ridge
"Hidden in plain sight" Good job Bob
sand tiger
also did they have teleporters on them?
sand tiger
if i recall right a bob showed up in one of the comics
carmine sleet
I believe the disappearing is meant to be them activating active camo
wet pollen
Makes sense
terse lava
Just looked up the Bobs..you were right @humble yacht. Oddly also found out the white zealot Bobs are canon now too
sand tiger
maybe the white bobs are just ultras wearing different armor than the norm
carmine sleet
Doubt it given as if that was the case, they surely would've just made it so
terse lava
Would say just a different rank within the zealot orders. Perhaps even just the vanilla uniform for some
half herald
am insane and reaching if i think that the Oni Sword Base map is suspiciously similar in layout to the TCTF base in Oni
like with the big atrium and the ramps going between levels
carmine sleet
You mean the map in multiplayer? Because if you do, the map in multiplayer is meant to be the same building as what is seen in campaign
clever fable
He's just asking if anyone else thinks it is similar to the base in the game ONI, though yeah it is definitely a version of the base from Reach's campaign.
Didn't really play much of the ONI game, so I can't really recall myself.
carmine sleet
Mark V[b]
obsidian thistle
B is more privatized.
To quote Halopedia. "Along with the Security and Rogue variants, the Mark V[B] was designed and manufactured by private organizations hired by the UNSC rather than developed by the Materials Group due to numerous problems with funding."
versed helm
Least they were able to incorporate energy shielding on the armor.
carmine sleet
All Mark V suits have shields
versed helm
Mark V armor was developed recently around Late 2551.
I'm comparing it to the Mark IV.
Yeah. I got confused on the variations there. And to the first and second generations of the Mark V armor.
versed helm
Do the reach ar’s look different because they aren’t directly manufactured by the UNSC’s main weapon supplier?
gilded mason
It's still in the first several months of the war. If any humans did encounter Sangheili at that point, they might not have been able to send clear intel back. Because of their demise or otherwise.
terse lava
Was before silent storm, yes?
terse lava
You know, kinda sad one of the good things from the travis books didjt make an appearance there. Ssngheili thinking humans were a parasite in another creature's body
gilded mason
Really? I thought it was silly.
terse lava
Well yea the idea I guess, butbrhe fact it developed a new word besides, "heretic" was nice
Guess I found it funny
stoic hamlet
I’m sad we seem to have lost the “demon” meaning
The covies seem to know what Spartans are now
Even early war
terse lava
Remember it was only a fleetmaster, his direct underling, a few higher ups and the hierarchs themselves
vapid matrix
When did John achieve the rank of master chief?
vapid matrix
K
versed helm
It was a cool story
gilded mason
Yes. Why would it not be?
zenith axle
bc it takes place after the events of Halo 5
idk
it could just be something someone came up with
not necessarily going along with the storyline
deep pewter
Why do you think that?
terse lava
Kinda confused myself too,
snow void
I was bored and decided to make a scale of some stuff in the Halo universe but you can't upload images anywhere here and it doesn't seem like "content"
sacred dew
How olds the oldest human in halo?
gilded mason
Well, there's Parangosky who was 91 in 2553. Don't know any other human that old off the top of my head.
sacred dew
Just wanted to see how old humans lifespans was in halo
Thanks by the way
dull fox
it's definitely way longer than the average lifespan today, since they've done things like cure cancer
snow void
I mean, Spartans should be able to live a lot longer, if you look at Sgt Johnson he's 70 but looks like he's in his 40s
dull fox
average human lifespan today is like 60-70 I think, so 80-90 sounds about right
gilded mason
He did take a shower in The Flood before they removed that scene in the re-release.
I dunno. I don't keep track of Mjolnir stuff all that closely.
Though the armor is airtight, so would dirt really get in there?
carmine sleet
The suit has filters for that
gilded mason
They got catheters for at least one bathroom problem
slow crag
Just saying that Johnson looks like in his 40s due to cryopods , @versed helm
But still he could've live longer
But a lightbulb killed him
Lol
Even Chief barely survived that thing
carmine sleet
I'd say it was more a buffed up Sentinel Beam
I'm pretty sure that the Guardians from Halo 5 is what the idea for the Guardian Sentinel became
snow void
@slow crag Johnson didn't spent 30 years in cryo, he looks 40 because of his Spartan I augmentation.
Also, Guilty Spark's a glorified lightbulb with a really strong magnifying glass behind it.
versed helm
That
Is a supposition
It's not explicitly canon
There are many reasons why Johnson could be youthful, and the odds are, it's a combination of factors.
I have no doubt ORION would have contributed to his good health to some extent
It is also just as likely in my mind that the UNSC would incentivise service with organ replacement and bodily reconstructions using 26th century medical science, which would also prolong lifespan and also have the important effect of keeping battle-hardened NCOs in the field, something more valuable than all kinds of flashy new guns.
And there is also the cryo factor
slow crag
Of course he wouldn't spend 30 years straight in a cryopod -_-
versed helm
Yeah, but a month here, a month there, adds up.
No reason why the effect would be more pronounced than on any other long-time Marine, though.
slow crag
30 years is way too long to be in a cryopod
@snow void and I stated cryopod just to add in one of the factors why Johnson is still in his 40s.
versed helm
I can see a Marine maybe racking up maybe a maximum of three years over the course of a long career
Though it really depends on the engagements and the campaigns
snow void
He's not still in his 40s, he LOOKS like he's still in his 40s mostly due to his Spartan I augmentations, but he's actually in his 70s
versed helm
What I am telling you is that ORION isn't A) stated to be a factor as of yet
And B) if it was, wouldn't be the only factor
I, personally, am very keen on the idea of 26th century medicine having a passive benefit
I mean look at Parangosky
Approaching triple digits, sharper than almost anyone else
slow crag
Forgive me yes hes in his 70s
versed helm
In relation to everyone else
Probably 60s biologically
With a bunch of new and healthy organs, maybe
snow void
Pretty sure the augmentations helped keep their body up to shape, which would vastly decrease the effects of aging
versed helm
That's what I've been saying
I just wanted to make sure everyone's aware that that's just a likely theory, and not explicit canon
And also that, as with all these things, there are probably multiple factors at play
snow void
And I'm saying cryo isn't the main factor, and medicine likely isn't either. I doubt Johnson's been using Asian skin beauty products on his downtime, and normal medicine wouldn't reduce aging
versed helm
Aging is the effects of age on the body.
versed helm
If those effects could be countered at the source - failing organs being replaced, failing joints being reworked - I can't help but feel that you would see the skin retain a more youthful appearance.
And the thing that surprises me most about Johnson isn't his appearance - to me, he's always appeared in his 50s - but his physical attributes.
snow void
The skin's a separate organ, it's maintenance can't be chopped down to taking better care of your Kidneys
Yeah, Johnson appears to be able to express the same strength as an Elite Zealot, I'd just say it's due to augmentation and a weak Elite
versed helm
He's able to take a beating from Brutes, get around by hanging from Spark's carapace while he's in flight, perform a variety of physically intensive manoeuvres while fighting his way clear on the Flood on 04. Those are the big things.
Please don't tell me you're taking the Zealot thing from the CE Legendary Easter Egg
No un-augmented human could hold a candle to fully-grown Sangheili
It's not even close
Look at Johnson vs the Arbiter
versed helm
Johnson appears to be able to express the same strength as an Elite Zealot
snow void
He does also knock the Arbiter back in that fight and he's clearly not too hurt
same =/= more
versed helm
I'm contesting that any un-augmented human is on the same playing field.
snow void
He isn't un-augmented
versed helm
If you don't see Elites as being significantly stronger at minimum than any un-augmented human, there may be a lapse in your understanding.
Oh, that is true.
snow void
That's why I specified his augmentations
versed helm
But ORION augmentations don't seem to have the purpose of radically changing the body's function.
Just elevating it.
Let's consult the Spartan Field Manual real quick
snow void
They don't talk much about Spartan I augmentation, only that it was deemed inferior due to the fatalities and poor results
However I mean, more fatalities could just mean it was more potent than the Spartan II augmentation, though Spartan II's were selected with that taken into mind so, Spartan II augmentation might've been even more brutal than Spartan I augmentation in reality
versed helm
It included "bodysculpting, transplant integration, and neurosurgery".
According to page 79.
snow void
Included
versed helm
Significant performance variation was observed between augmentation candidates.
This is page 79, by-the-by. Just to give my references properly.
snow void
mhm, so yeah
versed helm
Well, it's just a matter of interpretation.
It is unlikely to me that Johnson manifests strength equivalent to a Sangheili as of 2552.
snow void
Sounds quite similar to Spartan II augmentation, apart from what's missing between them
versed helm
Especially considering Contact Harvest
In which he experiences physical close-calls with Jackals in melee, I believe.
And, like the other Marines in his squad in the intro, is puffed after a brief sprint in heavy armour.
Throughout the book he is never given any attribute I'd see as superhuman.
And to be on-par with a Sangheili would mean
The ability to toss a human being around a room
snow void
Well the common Sangheili normally doesn't, and he wouldn't have a reason to toss a person around
There's also weight and physical limitation when performing tasks
versed helm
The motif of a Sangheili lifting a human off their feet and impaling them with an energy sword is a common one in Halo.
Seen in H2A terminals, and a variety of art.
snow void
Yup, but why would Sgt Johnson lift and impale a person?
snow void
What's your point?
versed helm
It would be evident to you that if he was equivalent to a Sangheili in strength
He is, very much, portrayed as a physically fit but otherwise normal man
The same goes for Silent Storm
Which also has him as a POV character
versed helm
Well, it's more or less the entire book.
Primarily any scene that involves him in combat
So, the introduction.
snow void
Just because you're super Human doesn't mean you're not Human
versed helm
Also the preliminary fight against the Jackals
snow void
He still weighs roughly the same as a person, he still has Human skin and weaknesses
versed helm
My point, Architect
Is that Sangheili are very strong
And Johnson is not that strong
snow void
I haven't read that book since I was a kid, so I can't just recall every scene
I can hardly remember the book itself
So you can't just be like "Because Jackals in the book" because I don't know what you mean by that
snow void
I want you to explain what you're talking about, not an exact quote
versed helm
I have!
snow void
I want you to tell me if you're talking about Sgt Johnson wrestling a Jackal or what
versed helm
Yes, that's what I'm talking about. A hand-to-hand engagement between Johnson and a Jackal.
snow void
And what was the problem with that?
versed helm
He did not fight as if he had the strength of an Elite.
snow void
Explain though
versed helm
An Elite would easily be able to shove away and incapacitate a Jackal with its bare hands
What occurs in the book is a prolonged grapple
Which ends with Johnson bringing his weapon to bear
And shooting it
snow void
An Elite has very long imposing arms with strong armor and everything
Sgt Johnson has flesh arms with the length of Human arms
snow void
He didn't fight like an Elite because he isn't physically an Elite
versed helm
This argument is getting a little bit ridiculous, friend.
snow void
Strength doesn't refer to the length of your arms or your armor
versed helm
You're talking a lot about context that you don't have
And that I can't quite give you
snow void
You're making a comparison about body shape and action not strength
versed helm
Okay, think about this for a second.
Don't just spontaneously jump into defence mode
Why would Johnson need to have long arms to use his strength
If he is in a body-to-body grapple with a Jackal
As in, we're talking elbows, knees and headbutts
He could push with his forearm
If he had that kind of strength
snow void
The comparison you made between Elite strength against a Jackal and Sgt Johnson's strength was that the Elite could easily push it away. That's because Elites are much bigger and have much longer limbs, sure they can easily push them away, but with a Human and Jackal up close, that's not an option when the Jackal's at the same length
It's also fair to point out it's a book about the action not the lore
In the particular scenario
versed helm
You're demonstrating a lack of capacity to visualize this instant in a realistic and practical way, a demanding and arrogant attitude in interacting with me, and a motivation to try and be right instead of to better understand what it is you're discussing. On that basis, I'm gonna head out now, and hope that your ideas and poorly-informed interpretation don't colour the understanding of any other Halo fans.
snow void
You're visualizing it as if Johnson having the STRENGTH of an Elite meaning he needs to have the lenght of an Elite
remote spruce
so like, who killed the flood in the CE legendary ending
snow void
Thel has 110lb on Johnson, grew up on a world with slightly higher gravity, and wears armour that enhances his physical strength. So it's hardly a fair fight, or one that Johnson was going to win.
From a quick Google search since it's 4:29 AM and I'm misurable right now
And if you wanna argue instances then how'd 2 ODST's overpower a Brute Chieftan in Halo 3: ODST
versed helm
@snow void Alright. First off, I'm gonna apologize for approaching the realms of personal attack - over the course what I have to say next, I hope to make it clear that what I was saying was not out of spite, but out of frustration, as I couldn't synthesize my arguments properly at the time. Having had some time to think it through, this is what I want to say.
From where I'm sitting you're making the assertion that Johnson's physical strength is equivalent to a high-ranking Sangheili warrior. I find this assertion to be faulty, because in one of the games (Halo 2) we see Johnson get directly overpowered by an Elite, and in 2 pieces of EU media that have Johnson as a POV character (Contact Harvest and Silent Storm), there is no indication that Johnson does benefit from any form of strength outside the realms of what a highly fit human could expect, which to be clear, is below what a Sangheili is capable of.
The reason why it is difficult for me to point to precise lines and pages is that you've effectively made your assertion and then put the onus on me to prove that it isn't the case, rather than actually trying to provide evidence for your assertion being true. It is far harder to prove that something isn't true than it is - I would have to comb through large segments of Contact Harvest and Silent Storm to ensure that at no point does Johnson demonstrate any notably superhuman physical characteristics, despite the fact that I have recently read both and if he did it would have stuck out to me. Meanwhile, you have provided no evidence that Johnson's capabilities are on-par with an Elite.
Furthermore, I don't see the logic behind your perspective that Johnson could have equivalent strength to a Sangheili, but not be able to use it because he lacks the size and long limbs of an Elite. Surely if Johnson lacks the physical traits that make an Elite strong, and can't actually demonstrate an Elite's level of physical strength, then he is therefore not on even terms with Sangheili Zealot. What is strength if not the ability to exert physical power? If Johnson cannot effectively exert the same degree of physical power, then he is not as strong.
I hope this has provided some insight into why I reacted the way I did to our conversation. I would also request, if you are eager to continue this discussion, that you provide evidence which shows that Johnson is on-par with a Sangheili Zealot in terms of physical strength.
snow void
Once again, I was saying he cannot push something away further than his limbs can reach, and I didn't ask for any exact lines or pages, I asked for context. You simply stated that he was up against Jackals, that's a very vague and blanket statement. You later elaborated after being asked several times and that's where we left off. It was in a grapple, in that situation he couldn't just push it far off like an Elite with much further reach could, due to the Jackal having as much if not more reach than Sgt Johnson
I also made it a point that he's likely not AS strong as an Elite, but likely a verymuch weakened Elite.
versed helm
To me, that argument doesn't hold weight. If Johnson could manifest any degree of comparable strength to an Elite, he would have found a way to use it in such a desperate, body-to-body engagement. I'm afraid you aren't going to convince me - that said, I was not aware that the comparison was to a "very much weakened Elite".
I can accept that virtually anyone or anything could be physically on-par to a "weakened Elite".
But it's not a very useful comparison, on account of the Elite being subject to unusual circumstances.
Which may be the very source if my confusion.
snow void
As far as me providing evidence, you've already done that for me. You quoted the Spartan Field Manual on the Orion project, involving "bodysculpting, transplant integration, and neurosurgery" which could all bolster the physical effectiveness of a person, and with significant variation, I'd say it's likely fair to say Sgt Johnson benefitted the most from it, or at least was one of the most beneficial given the numebr of failures and the fact he lived to 70 in his profession
versed helm
That argument also doesn't fly with me, as I was looking for anecdotal evidence to prove that these bolstered physical attributes were on-par with a Sangheili Zealot, which is what I understood the conversation to be about, not that those bolstered physical attributes existed in the first place.
snow void
All Elites aren't the same, but a weaker Elite's still much stronger than a normal un-augmented Human. Your basis here is that he didn't immediately tear off the arms of a Jackal that grappled him, but he still won that fight, didn't he?
versed helm
He won the fight in a way that would be consistent in my view with any UNSC soldier.
If he had some form of substantially elevated physical capability, I see it as certain he would have been able to end the fight more efficiently.
ie, shoving the Jackal off him and plugging it, instead of creeping his barrel up beneath its helmet.
Or administering debilitating trauma with physical blows from the knees or elbows.
snow void
Just because he got grappled by a Jackal in an action scene--unrelated to lore, doesn't mean he lacks physical superiority to normal un-augmented Humans enough to go up against Elites. Even John Forge killed the Arbiter of his time in close quarter combat.
However, even if you're as strong as an Elite, or close, doesn't mean you can prevent things from overpowering you. Elites still have a huge advantage with their armor, weight, physical form, experience, etc.
versed helm
I don't follow your assertion that action scenes are somehow unrelated to lore. Anything that occurs within the Halo universe, action or otherwise, is lore.
In the case of the H3 ODST issue, you had the wrong impression about what unfolded.
The Chieftain was standing over Romeo, and Buck jumped on it and stabbed it in the neck before it could react.
snow void
Because I can argue a legendary ending or an in-game cutscene has more bearing than a book that wasn't written with all lore taken into consideration
versed helm
Then he was aided in repeatedly stabbing it by Mickey lending his strength.
Before Dutch proceeded to get a significant run-up and knock it over.
snow void
And you think that doesn't take any strength?
versed helm
To take a page out of you book, the Chieftain was weakened by stab wounds to the neck.
Which could have caused severed muscles, nerves and arteries.
Presumably, they resulted in his death.
snow void
Weakened, but you know how strong Brutes are, you should if you try to argue about strengths
versed helm
And it is at this point that I reach a similar phase as I reach before, because I'm finding as I'm talking to you that you arguments seem to be shifting around the points I present, and even still they just aren't really connecting in my mind.
snow void
He forces parts of the Brute to move in the scene while the Brute attempts to move in a different direction, before being stabbed
How is that shifting anything? I continued to talk about the exact scenario
versed helm
Now I'm not making any personal judgements here about you - honestly, the fact that you're a Halo fan tells me that you're probably a better person than most.
But I do think you should maybe examine your perspective here, and how this argument has played out.
Because I'm afraid you're not making a lick of sense to me.
snow void
Sgt Johnson lived to 70 while fighting on front lines surviving being grappled by not just Jackals but Elites and Brutes alike, and despite his augmentation you insist that he's just as strong as a regular Human
versed helm
Perhaps a little stronger. Not physically comparable in any meaningful sense to a Sangheili.
snow void
But at the same time he can resist being strangled by an enraged Arbiter enough to tell a joke and remain relaxed
versed helm
The Arbiter wasn't strangling him, he was holding him in place.
snow void
And screaming
versed helm
And it was more gritty defiance than a relaxed joke.
I'll consult the cutscene.
H2A?
snow void
Yeah, go consult it
Actually, now I rewatched it, he also blocks the Arbiter's swing and throws the Arbiter's attack to the side
versed helm
Johnson manages to hold a one-handed strike at bay using a two-handed grip on his BR55, and delivers a slightly staggering strike with it.
Then, he gets physically dominated and tossed about.
I'm afraid I don't see this is as supporting your argument.
snow void
He weighs significantly less, he's much easier to toss around
You're going back to the argument that because he's not physically an Elite he can't posses the strength
versed helm
The fact that he weighs less also indicates less strength, due to comparatively little muscle mass.
Oh, I know!
Could you please define "strength" for me?
snow void
Elites weigh less than a lot of Spartans that can overpower them
snow void
Being able to put out a certain amount of power, or take in a certain amount of power
Potential and Kinetic energy
versed helm
Also I should clarify that Spartan IIs is armour are known to weigh in the realms of half a ton.
The arbiter weighs about a third that.
According to Halopedia.
snow void
I meant the other way around mb, I know Spartans weigh multiple times that of an Elite
Any clue how much a Spartan IV in armor weighs?
versed helm
Considerably less, I believe.
snow void
Either way, weight isn't physical body shape(shape being the actual shape)
But you get my point
versed helm
Just to be clear
Are you now arguing from the perspective that Johnson is equivalent to a weakened Elite in physical strength
Or that he is on-par with an Elite
snow void
No, to a normal Elite, or a weakened high ranking Elite
versed helm
The military rank of an Elite does not have a direct bearing on their physical strength.
snow void
Thel not being a normal Elite by any means
The military rank often involves their combat expertise
Which is often hand and hand with physical strength and prowess
versed helm
I don't think Thel is considered physically exceptional, necessarily. I haven't seen any indication of that. Clearly he is a highly gifted strategic thinker and skilled combatant.
But he lacks the raw power of Elites such as Ripa, who was notably physically exceptional.
snow void
To get as far as he's gotten, he had to be a better Elite than the rest.
Than the average at last
versed helm
As you've said yourself, I believe, "better" can mean a lot of things.
Many of them lying in the mind.
snow void
I know there are Elites that could easily overpower the Arbiter, those Elites I think very few single characters could hold up against
versed helm
All the same, I don't see "high-ranking Elites" as useful language.
In this context anyway.
You see Johnson's strength as on par with an average Elite.
snow void
Because they live in a culture of war and being the best they can, their ranking shows that
versed helm
On the basis of him briefly putting up a fight against the Arbiter (blocking a single-handed strike with his rifle and then administering a relatively ineffectual bludgeon with it).
snow void
Xytan, the highest rank I know of, can likely beat the Master Chief without much effort, but he's nowehere near the average Elite for example
versed helm
In this circumstance completely fanciful speculation of that nature is absolutely not useful.
snow void
He blocked, negated(moved against will) the attack, rebuttled with failure against the Arbiter's armor and shields, then was picked off his feet by something weighing over 100 lbs more than him and pinned, there's not much he could do there even if he was as strong as a normal Elite
Well your comment pointing out the uselessness of one of my comments is a far more useless comment in itself
It's also not entirely useless to mention, given we were talking ranks and he's the biggest Elite we know of
versed helm
Alright, I'm going to make my perspective here clear real quick. In my eyes, your average Elite is significantly stronger than a non-augmented human. There is no way an ordinary human would be able to physically overpower an Elite.
An ORION candidate would be stronger than an un-augmented human, but not radically so. I believe many of their augmentations resulted in qualities which were favourable to conducting long-term special operations. Durability, stamina. Capacity to work under extended periods of extreme stress and strain. His strength will be higher than most humans, but still he will not stand a chance of physically overpowering an Elite.
snow void
Except for the fact that he can fight one of the most skilled Elites, overpowering an attack and live
versed helm
He blocked a one-handed blow using two hands on his rifle.
Then promptly had his rifle slapped out of his hands, then he was lifted to a wall and unable to fight back, and then he was tossed across the room and rendered unable to continue fighting.