True
#lore-and-universe
terse lava
hasty locust
Yeah I don’t think he would’ve expected the flood teaming with arby ‘n chief either
main rivet
Truth's leisurely pace to Earth absolutely does not make sense if he knows what the rings do.
hasty locust
He was on the verge of greatness he was this close
main rivet
Nor does bothering with sending Tartarus versus trying to kill all the Elites.
Yep! I think he definitely spirals in Halo 3, but I don't think it's as simple as "he goes mad", he's just pushed into a corner with dwindling options.
He bet it all badly, and there's really no coming back from it.
terse lava
More thrown then pushed
hasty locust
Well I don’t think he was ever good in the head
main rivet
I'd say his actions in Contact Harvest disagree with that.
gilded mason
"The risk I took was calculated, but man, am I bad at math."
main rivet
I'm guessing the reason that Truth ultimately decided to usurp the Elites, despite the bad timing, was the feeling that it was either get the jump on them, or lose all momentum.
main rivet
Because they were increasingly unreliable.
versed helm
Eliminate
hasty locust
Being intelligent and sane are not the same thing however
versed helm
I mean we know that they were unreliable but we don't... ahhh forget it
hasty locust
I don’t think truth was ever sane with human standards
main rivet
Ok, look at it this way.
versed helm
Being told that they're unreliable and having a ground-level understanding of what exactly transpired are two different things
And we lack the latter
main rivet
Truth has two ultimate goals: the divinity promised by the great journey, and keeping the covenant together.
versed helm
I disagree
main rivet
The pragmatic latter goal is essentially the only way his species survive.
If the Covenant falls apart, the Prophets stand to lose the most.
versed helm
I think he's a thorough pragmatist, or was, even if he didn't know what the rings did.
main rivet
Oh he definitely is.
versed helm
And I think it's obvious that at minimum he knew more than he let on
It's just a question of how much
terse lava
And yet we see when the brutes are promoted, they kill everyone, including prophets
main rivet
But that doesn't mean he doesn't believe in the Covenant's religion.
He says as much in Contact Harvest.
versed helm
Any revelation would occur post-CH
main rivet
And so pragmatically, once they learn what they learn in CH, he has bnasically no choice.
versed helm
I mean he knew the location for Earth from a source other than Meridian
main rivet
If the humans live, the Covenant is going to fall apart.
So he tries to kill them off as fast as possible.
And that doesn't work at all.
versed helm
Killing humanity is distinct from firing the Halo array, though.
And also the schism
Why are we on that
main rivet
So he starts making contingency plans to get the Prophets out from under the sway of the Elites.
The Prelates and the Brutes.
versed helm
Why are you telling me canonically obvious things now
main rivet
I'm trying to explain stuff.
versed helm
I know
main rivet
If you stopped posting until I'm done, you might not have these issues.
main rivet
You are asking why he wanted to usurp them, I'm trying to explain it.
versed helm
I didn't ask you anything
terse lava
Let him explain looter
main rivet
"Doesn't explain why he wanted to usurp them in the first place.
Well not usurp"
versed helm
I generally understand why he wanted to based on the sources we have
main rivet
6:50
versed helm
That's not a question to you
Not a question in general
It's a statement that you never really let me substantiate.
For one, much of what we understand to be Truth's motivations is widely spread headcanon, sprinkled with some support from CH regarding his psychology and the odd bit of dev info.
The simple truth is that we've never gotten inside Truth's head in a substantive way since CH.
tawdry galleon
Quick question (I asked earlier but I think it got lost in the channel feed lol): Does anyone know if Spielberg is still related to the Halo TV show project?
versed helm
What we know, if I'm not mistaken, is that Truth A) had some level of passive dislike for Elites. B) he saw them as unreliable, potentially because fringe elements began to question the nature of the war against humans.
Bit from a logical perspective, there's a difference between a species and a cabal of people with errant beliefs.
It's not efficient to expel an entire foundational species from the Covenant because of a clear minority who logically wouldn't be limited to just Elites.
tawdry galleon
...
main rivet
The Elites are the only ones that matter, though.
versed helm
Yeah, but you wouldn't want to get rid of all Elites when clearly there are significant portions of the species (or an overwhelming majority) who are still blindly loyal.
I'm saying that, like with the knowing location of Earth scenario
Something happened or Truth came to understand or know something which systematically shook his faith in every Elite.
main rivet
Where's the evidence he was planning to kill all the Elites?
versed helm
That's a possible touche.
Generally the Schism uses very Elite vs Brute language.
it was evidently racially motivated.
But the possibility certainly does exist that outside key flashpoints, the battle lines were less clear.
main rivet
Truth's immediate goal was to kill the Elite High Council. They were the ones threatening to leave the Covenant, and those were the ones who would elect new Hierarchs that could destabilize his position.
versed helm
In fact it's almost a logical certainty.
main rivet
We outright know that was his goal.
The idea that he was then going to turn on all the other Elites, meanwhile, is less substantiated.
versed helm
But it is also evident that he sought to replace all Elite personnel with Brutes insofar as his personal forces.
main rivet
I think it's simpler to say that in a bid to stabilize his position, he took steps that destabilized it further. Which is a pretty common problem with dictatorial regimes, but again it almost worked.
versed helm
Anyway.
At the end of the day, what I want is another deep dive into Truth's psychology.
I want answers to certain questions.
main rivet
Well, all you get unless they decide to reopen that book is this Grim-approved fan article: http://www.forwarduntodawn.com/the-shroud/ 😛
versed helm
What was the moment he was pushed into the Schism? How did he learn of Earth prior to Regret?
feral perch
Shadow of Intent suggests that Prelates were intended for the Schism since their inception
It does not, however, give a date for said inception
main rivet
They've been a bit flaky on exactly who knew what and when in regards to Truth's plans.
feral perch
But it seems like the Great Schism may have been in planning since the early war era
main rivet
Stuff like "Wages of Sin" suggests a far bigger conspiracy than stuff like "Broken Circle".
feral perch
2525 or thereabouts is my personal opinion
main rivet
I don't doubt Truth had a "Plan B" lined up for a while. I think it's ultimately the loss of Halo that pushed him to actually pull the trigger.
terse lava
@tawdry galleon think so
feral perch
If Jiralhanae were responsible for the loss of Alpha Halo, what would have happened?
gilded mason
That one Gordon Ramsay meme
terse lava
@feral perch likely punished in some form.
feral perch
Hm
main rivet
I think a lot of Truth's personal animosity is partially due to it being the Arbiter's failure specifically.
terse lava
Would guess whatever brute was charge would befall the same fate as thel did
main rivet
He recommended him back in Cole Protocol.
terse lava
Truth never seemed to trust the sangheili, as if the writ had just been written and not 3400 years prior
main rivet
I don't think overall there were many who trusted blindly.
The Covenant wasn't great at forming strong bonds between the member races.
At a certain point they were more loyal to the religion than each other, and I think given their precarious position the Prophets were just generally paranoid at some level. They were afraid the Elites would betray them and that fear helped bring that about.
terse lava
Problem was with the san shyuum themselves
We see in broken circle that their leaders saw the sangheili as only enforcers and servants rather than partners. There's that point where a delegation arrives at the key ship. The san shyuum refuse to let the sangheili sit at the table as that would make them equal
Later in the novel the hierarchs ask the main charactern whybthey should trust sangheili likenthe main guy does
main rivet
They never really bothered to cohere the Covenant. So they were in it for the carrot (salvation) and the stick (glassing). It was really likely going to fall apart eventually, and they just lurched from one crisis to another.
terse lava
Wouldn't say glassing
main rivet
I'd say it's an important point, given that's the only reason the Grunt Rebellion was quashed, and the Assembly brings it up as well in their analysis.
terse lava
Yet warfleet shows that glassing was rather frowned on and distasteful. They kept dedicated war vessels away from high charity for that reason
main rivet
Doesn't mean it wasn't on the table.
terse lava
We dont know how long g though
Before the war, we know it was used on the lekgolo and unggoy rebellion
I doubt it was a fully regular default thing before
I am curious how honest the minister of discovery was on the nature of the great journey. He claimed himself and those san shyuum in the past whom he studied k ew the journey was false. Yet we see others saw.it as salvation
main rivet
I wouldn't take his comments super authoritatively, in that he's kind of having an existential moment before he gets eaten.
And it's really the only piece of fiction that suggests that far-reaching a conspiracy.
I think it's fair to say that, like with humanity's relationship to the Forerunners, Bungie seemed to have some different ideas on exactly what was going on, and that was reflected in the shift to 343.
terse lava
Had considered that, nothing else to.my knowledge had shown anyone knew the reslity of the great journey until they end although some san shyuum like inner conviction were for a time doubting it. Until he saw that ark/halo hologram d
versed helm
Well, irrespective of what San'Shyuum working in the interior ministry knew
The Prophets practically had their answer when they interrogated Mendicant Bias
wary hazel
quick question does master chief or other spartans get paid?
like I assume spartan 2's don't cause they where kid napped
as kids
but maybe the newer gens
terse lava
Welcome,
spiral jewel
Any surviving S1's might, but who knows how many remain.
versed helm
Did y’all see this https://m.imgur.com/ECPjuDJ
hasty locust
I just did now
terse lava
?
hasty locust
What they should’ve done, is male the first season a “fan service” and have it just like the games, not creating any new lore, just being like that halo 3 thing with the ODST’s and if that goes all fine and dandy, then you start throwing all these new thing is to the mix, instead of shoving it all in our faces to begin with, start slowly adding more gradually so peeps accept it better
deep pewter
I don’t blame 343i for being tired of the nonsense response to the snippets of show info
versed helm
Just waiting for the day where they come out and declare that the show isn’t canon and instead it’s own separate thing for TV
deep pewter
I’m kinda hoping they don’t at this point
terse lava
How would you reconcile the changes then
hasty locust
Well if it is indeed canon. Then that opens the question is captain Keyes now retconned to be black?
Which I don’t mind really
The biggest one is the covenant orphan and the Miranda doctor
Why not make a new character to be a doctor? Nope
deep pewter
Artistic liberties can explain visual differences
hasty locust
It just doesn’t make sense, cause like she seemed pretty young in halo 3 and it’s like what 8 years to become a doctor, and then she has to go through idk “tactic school” for probably a long time, and then raise through the ranks to become a captain, if someone can give me a solution here, cause that would be appreciated
Yeah I get artistic liberties and all and that makes sense that they would want to put they’re own spin on things but I don’t think they should’ve made such huge spins at the beginning of the show
deep pewter
They’re not that large of spins
terse lava
True its not the worst thing, just puzzling
hasty locust
Yeah
terse lava
I dont fully mind it. Though that may be by covenant fanboy bias, but just wondering on the why
hasty locust
I just find the human orphan thing ridiculous, if your average joe human, found a baby grunt just chilling on the side walk, I can assure you he’s gonna stomp it
It’s gonna be interesting to watch play out, but like 🤷♂️
terse lava
Who knows will just gave to wait and see
versed helm
Hell, they should’ve just made those 3 Spartans Blue Team
terse lava
Hm?
carmine sleet
Given that he says there's a reason that already exists in canon, my bet is that the human was raised in a location similar to the Rubble
versed helm
If we’re going with this route of “different casting is artistic license and not canon”, then those 3 Spartans John has with him in the show should’ve just been Kelly Fred and Linda, and their different ethnicities can be chalked up to “artistic license and doesn’t violate canon”
humble yacht
He said it’s due to a recognizable reason that anyone who played the games will get. So I’m betting secret reclaimer.
Brainwashed by truth so he can use her to get into important forerunner installations
boreal bane
FYI, there are filter issues when using the name Kelly. Try and avoid it for now
carmine sleet
I could see that, Chimera
And that explains why stuff I was talking about with Erickyboo was getting deleted yesterday, Stckr, so that's good to know
versed helm
I may be an ahole, but I won’t be shocked if they also made this character up because they don’t want to spend a lot of money on expensive Covenant CG
stoic hamlet
Actually the Spartans are fine
Like that’s actually the best thing about the show
You know we still don’t know the names of 6 of the RED FLAG Spartans?
And Spartan II teams have always been nebulous entities, changing and swapping as needed depending on the roles.
Blue Team doesn’t have a set roster, it never has
versed helm
Overall, I think it would’ve been a better idea if the show had followed a whole slew of new characters, with some appearances from characters like Chief from time to time
Not making him the lead
stoic hamlet
Agreed
fair hazel
It would have
There are so many ways of avoiding questionable situations. It’s not like these things are not obvious
terse lava
@fair hazela fair point
I do wonder, will there be any real covenant appearance, like a view of High Charity or just any of the races in general outside of qui k shots like forward into dawn
fair hazel
I wonder if they could have gotten the blue team actors and up age them
It’s supposed to have a good budget
terse lava
Not a bad idea erickyboo
humble yacht
Frankie said that Makee will not replace any on-screen alien covenant
terse lava
Didnt think she would. Just with FOD, there were only a few brief minutes of covenant
humble yacht
Yeah well hopefully the showtime show is intended to feature more action and thusly covenant
terse lava
Yea
polar elm
How do we know that the Battle of Installation 04 took place over September 19-22, 2552? That's PoA's recorded time (as given in Halo: The Flood) and isn't necessarily the accurate timestamp as it has traveled through slipspace. If I've read correctly, time inside and outside slipspace elapse differently so how do ships log their reports and stuff? Do they sync up their clocks somehow? Is this answered anywhere? I haven't played through MCC so forgive me if this is ignorant.
gilded mason
How do we know that the events of Installation 04 take place over September 19-22, 2552?
At the very least, we have Halo Mythos corroborating that time period.
fair hazel
For time dilation, it isn’t hard to imagine they would have some way of measuring that to synchronize things correctly
versed helm
a third-generation smart AI can almost certainly run the calculations to estimate an accurate time frame
gilded mason
That too
polar elm
For time dilation, it isn’t hard to imagine they would have some way of measuring that to synchronize things correctly
That is an impressive handwave, but one might nitpick that velocity based time dilation requires measurement of speed relative to the absolute frame of reference, something that is probably not possible given that slipspace is an alternate dimension. But I suppose it'll do for now.
versed helm
plus there's hard limits on when it could've been because PoA was witnessed leaving Reach and then witnessed returning to Reach on the Ascendant Justice at a later time
As soon as any of the Halo survivors rendezvous with UNSC forces that weren't subject to the time dilation any discrepancy could be corrected easily
polar elm
True
versed helm
The larger uncertainty comes from the Slipspace anomaly caused by the Forerunner gravity crystal after the events at Installation 04 concluded
From Chapter 23 through 26 in "First Strike," the time/date stamps are all unknown, then in 27 it's stated as "Time/date stamp error: anomaly. Revised date estimated 0450, Sep 12, 2552"
Also, this audiobook is infuriating because the narrator pronounces "MJOLNIR" as "muh joel near"
polar elm
Neat detail. I'll keep my eye out for that one.
versed helm
It's fresh in my mind because I've been listening to the audiobooks at work in order to get hype for Infinite, which some friends are workin' on
polar elm
That's pretty cool.😀
versed helm
I'm really not sure what the significance is of the timestamp being -before- the beginning of the book.
Time travel? A mistake?
In that context, time travel.
John is shown in the Longsword directly after the ending of CE and the date is stated as Sep 22
It really doesn't make sense that they went -backward- in time to before they picked up Dr. Halsey and the anomalous crystal, tho
To before they even left Reach
gilded mason
Neural physics
versed helm
It's just meant to show that the timekeeping mechanisms of whatever relays that information were confused.
I don't think so
Which indicates that time was distorted.
The revised time/date readings kind of explicitly go against that notion
🤷
So do you think they're an error, then?
polar elm
I'm trying to paste a quote here but the message is getting autodeleted. Is there some bot or something?
versed helm
Does it have anything that could be considered inappropriate?
gilded mason
Yeah, it can be pretty overzealous
versed helm
Possibly. I'd like to see one of the newer updates to the book as this audiobook is based on the 2003 version. I know Fall of Reach had some issues that were fixed in later reprints
gilded mason
Apparently it also filters if it sees a certain member of Blue Team as well?
gilded mason
Oh, guess not anymore
versed helm
My response to that, Pidge, is that the odds are given the specific context you're grasping at straws if you think it's an out-of-universe error.
polar elm
"He’d been asleep for three hours—his first sleep cycle in thirty-six hours. Worse, this was the first time since the ship had jumped that he’d been able to fall asleepat all." By this time, Sam Marcus had been in slipspace for 20 days. - Halo The Flood
versed helm
Like, they selected that date with the intent to display some degree of time distortion.
In relation to the rest of the dates in the book, that is.
Looters, considering that Fall of Reach had a dozen out-of-universe errors fixed and this is the same author, it's not impossible
In this context it's severely unlikely.
First Strike was rushed out to hype up Halo 2 and there's a whole bunch of content within it that basically acts like a preview of Halo 2 game functionality
An interesting time capsule of the era
polar elm
Well this time stamp business is pretty wonky if you ask me.
A bunch of mistakes in FoR
Haven't looked at the reprints though
versed helm
In my eyes it seems like you're being potentially ignorant of the nuance which canonical oddities often require, and also a little close-minded when it comes to the actual implications of the given date.
In my eyes you're treating me as though I'm incapable of parsing the narrative that I just re-read this week
Obviously you are capable of that.
And, inspecting the wiki, it seems that this territory has been well documented
But parsing through a narrative and understanding what's going on with the universe builders behind Halo are two different beasts.
polar elm
Hold on dudes. Let's not start the next war here.
versed helm
An extended tenure as a Halopedia editor has told me that things are rarely cut-and-dry.
And that you need to temper your expectations and desires.
AB, please. There's no need to police us. We're fine.
I really don't appreciate the way you're talking to me so I'm going to cease communication at this time.
Um. Sorry?
polar elm
My apologies
polar elm
Anyway, so we have another source to corroborate the dates for Battle of Installation 04 which solves one problem.
The Sam Marcus thing just looks like an error on Dietz's part which might have been fixed in the reprints. Haven't been able to get my hands on one.
versed helm
So, if we do we John’s face in the show, at least we’ll know it’s non canon (ugh)
Dude, we don't know that.
gilded mason
Why would that be, TR?
versed helm
Everyone is dead-certain that the show is non-canon despite all the evidence to the contrary.
it's a real interesting, uh. Cognitive dissonance?
That's not the phrase.
Something.
@gilded mason I’m just messin around haha
gilded mason
🤔
versed helm
Ah. Funny joke.
mental nimbus
i wish i wasn't canon
polar elm
Do the publishers of the books not release a list of changes from previous editions?
versed helm
Not to my knowledge.
It would be nice.
But if they do have him take his helmet off and see his face, 343 can simply say it’s an artistic license and not his canonical appearance
polar elm
Fall of Reach got another reprint this year. I wish I knew what changed.
versed helm
I read it. Nothing that stuck out.
It was just a reprint with a yellow bit on the front saying it was Chief's origin story.
polar elm
Cool. Thanks for the info.
versed helm
Which I personally resent a little, given how many problems reading TFoR can cause someone new to the Halo Universe.
Like c'mon, in light of everything that's happened? You're gonna put TFoR on a pedestal again?
mental nimbus
the fall of reach a master chief story
gilded mason
lol
mental nimbus
i feel like somebody missed the point of the calls for "more chief" after halo 5
these people aren't reading books
versed helm
Actually y'know what?
I'm gonna see what Mythos says about the time travel shenanigans.
And First Strike in general.
When it comes down to it I think Mythos is the skeleton of the Halo story around which any interpretation must bend.
And I am, as everyone knows, on an un-ending quest to get people to stop clinging to TFoR, TF and FS.
gilded mason
Oh. Mythos doesn't seem to say anything about time travel.
versed helm
Yeah.
When it comes to those three books
If Mythos doesn't say it, it's probably not something 343 are particularly interested in emphasizing.
feral perch
First Strike is great for the action, if not the world building.
versed helm
The Covenant plasma efficiency thing is terrible.
Johnson's Flood immunity is terrible.
feral perch
pffft whatever
I'm not interested in hardcore science fiction, make it sound cool mang
versed helm
No like
gilded mason
The Covenant plasma efficiency thing is terrible.
Oh, this about Cortana's spiel?
versed helm
It's very uncool for the Covenant to be using their weapons poorly when all they need to do is flip a few dials and have objectively better weapons.
Like
That's undignified.
feral perch
Johnson's Flood immunity could have been the Flood deciding not to infect him, like they did to trick the Forerunners.
gilded mason
Oh yeah. that thing. God, I hated that.
versed helm
Wasn’t great but whatever, it’s not the worst thing to ever happen ever
Also
The Flood were in the feral stage when they decided not to infect Johnson
Unless it was like the 05 Gravemind exerting its influence
Which I somehow doubt
They wouldn't plan like that
feral perch
Besides, Denning sort of continued that trend with Covenant sensor modules. They have too much information incoming to properly discern, so a lot of it has to be screened out
versed helm
Also I mean Halsey gave John a moral dilemma about Johnson's life
Doesn't seem like a mistake Halsey would make
Surprised they didn’t add Johnson into the show either
Johnson is a character consistent of a lot of very specific ingredients.
feral perch
I don't have a problem with Johnson's immunity. I don't see why one, single person couldn't ever be immune to the Flood. It's just the one dude, an anomaly.
versed helm
Dude
Thousands of plans
The Forerunners tried thousands of plans to stop the Flood
They're masters of genetic manipulation
They redefined what it is to be part of their species
Would've preferred a Contact Harvest setting for the show.
The first encounter with the Covenant would make a lot of sense for introducing the franchise to a mainstream television audience.
They never hit upon the same random mutation or whatever Johnson had from a bunch of plasma grenades
or y'know
ORION
feral perch
Oh well. Weird things happen.
versed helm
Yeah
feral perch
I think it's hilarious.
versed helm
Like that bit of First Strike being something Joe Staten himself didn't look upon as canon
And if it wasn't canon to Staten
It's not canon to me
feral perch
That's fine. Until 343i says it ain't, then it is to me.
versed helm
Whatever devours your galaxy.
Despite y'know
Having this random weakness
This random, comically under-utilized weakness
feral perch
It's Johnson. It fits his character really well.
You might as well consider his death non-canon because Joe Staten hated that too. /s
versed helm
Johnson's character is his character. The universe doesn't bend itself to make him some kind of godlike being.
If I remember correct, didn’t they take out that he’s immune in later media and a reprint of FS
Looters I can appreciate your conviction but the lore was built around the games at that point and the simple matter is that they really wanted Sgt. Johnson to be in Halo 2 so they contrived a reason
versed helm
I'm not bothered by Johnson being present in First Strike, Pidge. But I am bothered by the implications of his Flood resistance.
Halo: First Strike is a 36-chapter-long commercial for Halo 2
They don't sit well with what we know of the Forerunners or the danger of the Flood.
feral perch
... No.
You might as well say that every Halo book is a commercial for the Halo games.
versed helm
StoneWall have you read First Strike
feral perch
Yeah, a couple times.
versed helm
Were you present for the hype cycle for Halo 2
feral perch
No.
versed helm
There are many, many concepts introduced into First Strike that were being hyped in games magazines and such for the imminent release, 15 years ago yesterday
They had a whole chapter where they show the SPARTANS all the new weapons you get in Halo 2
SMGs, BR55, the M6 variant
The way the BR55 was introduced is definitely an example of what Pidge is saying.
Mhm.
There was also a scene where Fred commandeered a Wraith
feral perch
Sure. The book itself was a piece of necessary worldbuilding.
versed helm
The way it was presented was not organic to the story and stands out nowadays
feral perch
It bridges the gap between Halo 1 and Halo 2.
versed helm
And the book has been subjected to multiple edits to change that
feral perch
Like the glassing?
versed helm
What Pidge is saying certainly resonates with me.
Like the glassing, or how the Spartans didn't know what a BR55 was, or the way that Fall of Reach claimed that humans didn't encounter the Elites until Reach
feral perch
Fall of Reach is Fall of Reach.
versed helm
(imagine an all-Unggoy-and-Kig Yar invasion, preposterous)
feral perch
When Halo was first getting started, it wouldn't have been.
versed helm
Yes, and what I'm saying is that all of those things have been retconned because they stood out as incongruent with the games
My dude, I read Halo: TFOR in 2001.
I don't think we should view any source of media as being canonically less valid because of its out-of-universe context, as Stonewall might think I would. But when we hit upon canonical oddities understanding the context can help us decide what to do with them.
And much of First Strike is a canonical oddity.
Same for the prior novels, really.
As far as I'm concerned, there are two types of Halo fans
feral perch
I still enjoy it.
versed helm
Those who insist that the novels are invalid because they don't match the games, and those who insist that the games are invalid because they don't match the novels
I would disagree very hard with that, Pidge.
feral perch
Linda's sniping, the whole Hierophant raid, and the Ascendant Justice-Gettysburg is still my favorite ship.
versed helm
I wouldn't let myself be labelled as either.
I have friends who insist all of TFOR is invalid because there's no artificial gravity on human ships within the book, but the PoA has gravity in Halo 1.
I don't recall that being a thing before the Fall of Reach / Halo Reach controversy.
Even though that game is built on a simple engine where they had to make all the static, unmoving spaceships "fly" with camera motion.
feral perch
Um, what? Both are equally valid. Individual depictions and details may be retconned as needed.
versed helm
I would insist that those elements of TFoR are invalid in that basis.
Not the entire book.
feral perch
Or gameplay disregarded because gameplay.
versed helm
I would also insist that elements of gameplay are invalid because they contradict the clear, realistic logic set out in some of the books.
Yes. So right here we already have a couple of people deciding which one is "correct".
Revolving around weapons and such.
feral perch
They correct each other, for the most part. Process of elimination, if you will.
versed helm
The fact of the matter is that Halo will only have more inconsistencies over time, not less, as more and more people have control over the story. Trying to override the official declaration of what's canon with nitpicking details is a futile endeavor
feral perch
Yes.
versed helm
The only problem with that sentiment is that the official declaration of canon is nebulous.
We have precedent to go off.
feral perch
Also true.
versed helm
We're almost 20 years into this universe and unless an official canon bible is released, it's never going to be truly clear what's "real".
Halo isn't a universe where canon and non-canon go in clear baskets. You have shades of grey.
feral perch
The official canon bible exists, at least.
versed helm
I’m shocked they didn’t cast Johnson in the series as well
The best we can hope for is trying to string threads of logic together into something vaguely coherent.
I see, as I alluded to earlier, a skeletal imprint of what cannot be argued, basically Mythos. And the meat and blood of that are all interpretation.
But to say "xyz event isn't canon because Joseph Staten said so" is ... less than logical
As long as that interpretation is honest, and faithful, we're on the right track.
Even though I respect his vision a lot. Perhaps the most.
feral perch
I have more respect for Staten than Marty when it comes to canon tbh
versed helm
Well, the Joseph Staten argument was more of a meme than anything.
The basis of my disapproval of that element of the book comes from the numerous other sources it undignifies and contradicts, either directly or through intent.
And now I will begin my 30-minute-long lecture on why "Halo Reach" is not canon and shouldn't be
(not really)
feral perch
Halo Canon just did a great overview of the entire Battle for Reach
versed helm
Looters, how do you feel about the abomination that is "Halo: The Flood"
Love the tone.
Ignore half of the content.
feral perch
Halo: The Flood has great worldbuilding outside of the Master Chief's perspective
versed helm
Surprising, I haven't been able to struggle through that one in almost 10 years
@versed helm don’t get the hate, good book aside from the repetitive shooting bits
It's such a drag seeing the play-by-play of Halo: CE in text form
The military realism Dietz brings to table from his own experience really tickles me when it rears its welcome head.
The canonical inconsistencies are hard to bear.
I love the violence, though.
feral perch
... I like the play-by-play, but then again, I also like The Library.
Maybe I'm an oddity.
versed helm
Heresy
polar elm
I'll be honest, I kinda like the style, but like Looters said, the inconsistencies are kinda problematic.
versed helm
I'm part of the McKay fan club.
@versed helm what stuff did he get wrong again?
Pwhoah
A long list.
feral perch
Some things sounded silly, for sure. Like Chief taking half an hour to backtrack a portion of The Silent Cartographer to grab some ammo. Like, what?
versed helm
I think Dietz played Halo and sucked really bad at it but wrote down everything he did
And then used that as the framework for the narrative
feral perch
Could be.
versed helm
He's gotta return halfway through the level to pick up that other Overshield.
Hey, why would they put two of them on Silent Cartographer if you weren't supposed to use both
The bit where Chief can only carry two weapons because of their weight sticks out.
From a modern perspective my mind screams MAG CLAMPS YOU FOOL
At the time I was like
He stronk
Cuz I was a little guy
feral perch
ngl, Oblivion gave me Dietz vibes. A lot of tedious movement and action was depicted in that latest Chief book.
versed helm
Oh please
Don't make me fight you
I don't recall the mag clamps being depicted until Halo 3's reveal trailer but yeah it felt silly after John was depicted carrying a small arsenal around in FoR
feral perch
fite me
versed helm
Just to clarify, Pidge, I'm not looking out out-of-universe elements.
feral perch
I mean, the opening is my favorite part, and it's got the most of that
versed helm
Naturally the mag-clamps is a time thing.
It just felt silly as a justification within the book
But their existence does make reading the Flood vexing at times.
Most of my impression of "The Flood" is frustration at all the strange contrivances the story makes to adhere to the game
I mean if they all had slings, Chief could just sling em all over himself.
The weight is just
Not a factor for him
feral perch
You know, I really wonder where the player sticks grenades in their armor. In Nylund and Dietz' books, there's some kind of slot or pouch that they get shoved in
versed helm
FoR came out before Halo 1, there was no game to adhere to
It's just a matter of how much room he has on his body
That he could reasonably sling things off
Nylund sometimes mentions bandoliers or slings
And also move well
polar elm
You know, I really wonder where the player sticks grenades in their armor. In Nylund and Dietz' books, there's some kind of slot or pouch that they get shoved in
Funniest thing I've heard all day
feral perch
Mjolnir is pretty dang thicc, so a few grenades could fit in the thigh armor
versed helm
I just assume Spartans magnetize everything they need to themselves
Nylund also has Blue Team carrying around Havok tactical nukes by using an adhesive on the weapon, so like
And also carry a lot of satchels
terse lava
@feral perchpouches around his waist
versed helm
Denning loves satchels
John could've taken some duct tape and stuck them on his armor :V
feral perch
That's just Mark V, Ado
versed helm
I know Halo has duct tape, it's mentioned
I would love a dynamic in-game system that displays ammunition on the armour.
Like you have a few magazines
They're just kinda mag-clamped around the relevant areas
You have a lot of magazines
feral perch
Same!
versed helm
You've got mag-clamped pouches and ammo boxes
Needler ammo lookin' like weird pink warts all over the armor
The fact that the Sniper shoulders have only three rounds each really irks me.
You're fully stocked, you've got a satchel
feral perch
I loved how Halo 4 finally showed magazines being reloaded in third person.
versed helm
Halo CE did that
Halo 3 and 2 did that for some weapons
The SMG, notably.
And the magnum.
feral perch
It wasn't consistent until Halo 4
versed helm
Right.
It was pretty consistent in CE tho.
Like you can see the AR magazine
Even if it's uh
Not the right magazine
feral perch
I really need to check that out
versed helm
We'll just say that
polar elm
You'd think in 500 years they'd have better things than mags and grenades
gilded mason
It's also a gameplay thing.
feral perch
In the 26th century, everyone would just drink a glass of water to make their enemies die
feral perch
but that'd be boring
versed helm
That was Bungie being bad
feral perch
Looters, you know of what I speak
feral perch
Naughty naughty
Looking at guns, if you just break down the concept and mechanics, it's a really advanced way of throwing a rock at someone.
versed helm
Alright, the first reason the UNSC still uses conventional guns is because the damage you can impart with a flying hunk of lead increases so much with added velocity that finding ways to fire faster, nastier hunks of lead is more efficient than developing new weapons systems.
isn't the reason that the UNSC uses 20th century weapon cartridges specifically stated as
You can achieve with better propellant and harder materials all you really need to defeat human-portable body armour.
When you get to the vehicle playing field, magnetics can take over.
That is an efficient and grounded way for a military that has had no major adversaries for centuries to do things.
"the Shaw-Fujikawa drive completely reoriented humanity's priorities towards exploring and colonizing space for about 200 years"
"the arms industry was basically an afterthought because everyone was doing other non-war things"
polar elm
I'm out of my depth here. Sources please?
versed helm
Alright, I'll find some videos about how guns work for you.
Looters, you gotta work on your tone, you have a way of coming off as condescending
polar elm
A Halopedia link would suffice
versed helm
Pidge, honestly, right back at you. It's just a side effect of these conversations.
And AB, what we're dealing with now isn't canonical fact.
I don't go out of my way to be deliberately insulting towards other people's intelligence
Having not seen a lot of outside Halo media, Origins 1 from Legends would corroborate that point about focus shifting to exploration rather than war.
At least, for a time.
Nor do I, Pidge.
feral perch
oooh shots fired
versed helm
AB, we're dealing in theory relating to an area of the universe which is not technically discussed in-depth.
polar elm
I see. So this is mostly conjecture based on actual weapons design?
feral perch
Pidge, are you the one who hated the idea of Chakas? Or am I thinking of someone else?
versed helm
Yeah, don't like that
polar elm
No problem.
Well it did prove pretty costly, going by the number at least.
*casualty numbers
versed helm
I think, canon-wise, it's best explained that the UNSC was not interested in weapons development for a few centuries.
The IRL reason is much simpler. The guys at Bungie wanted to make a piece of media inspired by Aliens, and Aliens had a bunch of space marines in green armor hauling futuristic assault rifles.
feral perch
I think Aliens was an important inspiration, but not the main one.
versed helm
Halo 1 has so much content lifted from Aliens that I'm surprised Fox didn't get litigious.
feral perch
Sure. But I think the "30 seconds of fun" was the priority
versed helm
That's a sentiment that I find to be overblown.
No offence or anything.
The similarities stem from the fact that Aliens and Halo are both franchises which fill a specific niche.
Sgt. Johnson might as well have been named Apone. The narrative begins with the protagonist being taken out of cryosleep to deal with an alien threat. The intro cutscene to Halo: CE is almost directly lifted from Aliens.
The Pelican is a refined Aliens dropship. I could go on.
And many of those points are subjective.
Yes, those are tropes. Those are tropes inspired from Aliens.
Aliens and Halo fill a genre that not many other things do.
And that is science fiction based a few centuries in the future which deals in a tonally grounded interpretation of the human race.
polar elm
Wait, didn't the human race get devolved? So one might theorize that humans evolved along a different timeline than we did. Thus, it really wouldn't fair to compare the weaponry in-universe to our own.
versed helm
You really mean to tell me that Sgt. Johnson, the mustachioed, hard-talkin', cigar-chompin' Sergeant of a force of spaceborne United Nations Marines, who wears a flat cap, isn't an expy for Sgt. Al Apone?
Most other video game sci-fi is space fantasy.
polar elm
Ah Looters, ya beat me to it
versed helm
He has many of his own mannerisms in Halo 2.
In CE, he was absolutely a reference.
But he wasn't a major character, either.
That's like saying "Darth Vader's depiction in Star Wars: A New Hope is nuanced because of his performance in Empire Strikes Back"
Johnson has more spoken lines in the game than anyone except Cortana and maybe Keyes
He was still a generic Marine personality.
Albeit one used for marketing.
I'm sorry, I don't think any of this refutes my original argument of "the Bungie guys were heavily inspired by Aliens and that's why the humans have assault rifles'
I'm not refuting that.
fair hazel
Don’t we all agree over that?
versed helm
And I'd also say, "if he was so generic, why are they STILL giving players ways to play as him over 10 years after he died in canon?"
I'm saying that some of your exaggerated statements were ignorant of context.
And I'd say that's not what I meant.
Also Johnson got to have a bit more depth in Halo 3 and not just be a smart mouthed sgt
At the time of CE, Johnson wasn't a character. He was an archetypical Marine personality for Chief to fight alongside.
fair hazel
Contact harvest
fair hazel
For me, it’s the sum of the lore that makes things more enjoyable
versed helm
There is little difference between Johnson originally and any other Marine in Halo CE.
feral perch
Halo: The Fall of Reach introduced him, to be fair.
versed helm
That's why he gets one of the first lines in the game and one of the last, and appears in more cutscenes and levels than any other character
Who's the condescending one now.
You are infuriating.
😉
fair hazel
Let’s not get overly excited
versed helm
Anyway, the point I'm making about Johnson is self-evident.
And it's a microcosm of the broader point.
What exactly is that point?
polar elm
Yeah I kinda missed that. The point is?
fair hazel
For me, media released after the fact increases the previous material
Is there even a point?
polar elm
I honestly got lost in all the media references.
versed helm
You derailed the conversation from "why does the UNSC use gunpowder cartridges" to "Sgt. Johnson was totally just some generic guy and it has nothing to do with Aliens"
Yes, Halo took a lot from Aliens, but I think the similarities are often overblown because they exist in a vacuum within a genre of sci-fi that is under-saturated outside books.
THERE ARE DIRECT CINEMATIC ALLUSIONS.
I'm contradicting that.
feral perch
Does the censor not catch all-caps anymore?
terse lava
Yea..Johnson was a reference to aliens
versed helm
I said Halo took a lot from Aliens.
terse lava
Homage I guess
versed helm
But people often use that argument in a way that strips Halo of its own identity, and I feel the need to clarify the context outside of little trivia snippets.
humble yacht
I don’t think Johnson was that generic
feral perch
I hope we can at least agree that Halo > Aliens
polar elm
I haven't seen Aliens so I'm gonna go find a rock to crawl under.
terse lava
@feral perchyes
humble yacht
Oh aliens is great you should watch it
versed helm
It's not like all media is somewhat derivative or anything
feral perch
heheheh
main rivet
Humans running around with guns isnt because of aliens, it's because of gameplay considerations.
humble yacht
Also watch Alien, underrated film
main rivet
If the enemies are gonna' have futuristic weapons you have to differentiate other factions' guns.
polar elm
That would be incorrect. I think Alien is highly revered.
Also, how to react to a message?
feral perch
I've seen Alien but not Aliens
polar elm
Can't find the button on mobile
gilded mason
Also, how to react to a message?
You cannot in this channel
polar elm
Alas
versed helm
Looters, you're welcome to impose your bizarre "I am king of the fanboy hill" mentality on others here, I will not be interacting with you any further.
It's clear that you believe that you are always right when it comes to Halo, and it's exhausting.
humble yacht
:/
terse lava
Hm?
feral perch
try telling him that you think the H2A Marine BDU is the best, lol
obsidian thistle
You know I was looking into something regarding the TV show I'd like people to consider/think about.
You know the kid raised by the Covenant? Couldnt that be in response to Regrets failure with Anders in Halo Wars 1?
Why deal with unwilling people, when you can raise one to be willing?
polar elm
I've had enough lore for a day. Thanks for the discussion y'all.
obsidian thistle
Seeing as one reason Regret lost that shield world was due to Anders being unwilling to help the Covenant.
feral perch
Looters you told me my opinion was terrible when I said that before
bruh moment
Why would Regret tell anyone about that, CIA?
obsidian thistle
Who said this isnt a Regret plan itself ;)
Meaning he doesnt need to tell anyone.
He just does it
feral perch
Seems weird but maybe
terse lava
@obsidian thistlesounds like possible idea
fair hazel
Let’s not get too heated
obsidian thistle
One of Halopedias team members also put this idea forward also
"Maybe he uses her on Meridian to get the map to Earth and the Ark?"
Which would speed stuff up
I wont lie.
terse lava
@obsidian thistlebut wasn't it shown a covenant commando team found that
feral perch
But we already know from a Terminal cinematic that they accomplished that differently
terse lava
@obsidian thistlethose 2 san shyuum apparently did it, and they said the answers did not come easily
obsidian thistle
Again. Did you "see" them unlock it for the first time ;)
Kinda me being very pedantic. But thats my wiki goggles on now.
terse lava
Eh I would think it an idea of truth using her to find earth
I dont think we were shown how truth found the world, outside of ilovebees
fair hazel
Again. I have low hopes for the show. But I truly wish to be wrong.
So maybe that could work
humble yacht
I doubt some human child from outer worlds would know where to find earth
fair hazel
How old is the actor playing Makee again
humble yacht
I think she’s more a key to unlock forerunner stuff
feral perch
inb4 Forerunners are just ancient humans again
terse lava
@humble yachtwas thinking she uses forerunner tech to find it
@feral perchnot fully wrong, they used to be one race
feral perch
Where do you get that idea?
humble yacht
Misconceptions about Bungie
terse lava
@feral perch2nd forerunner book hinted at it
versed helm
Ohhh yeaaahhh, I've been thinking about that.
The idea that Forerunners are like a sibling race or something in that vein or just straight-up actual humans.
And they diverged from us through genetic manipulation.
it is actually quite a compelling one.
But with most ideas like that it's hard to predict how the fanbase would respond, y'know?
gilded mason
Oh yeah, I talked about that one a bit before.
terse lava
Wondering no other races were considered fie the mantle
feral perch
A good test would be to see whether ancient humans and Forerunners were able to have offspring
Could they be successfully crossed?
feral perch
What? it's scientific
feral perch
Cross-fertility would be a good indication that they are the same species
versed helm
Nah true though.
gilded mason
Anyone have any thoughts?
So a bit like this thing I pasted a while back?
You could still have stuff like the Forerunners' mutations and whatnot, just establish that yeah, they're definitely descended from the same common ancestor as humans instead of them being kind of like humans, only not.
Imagine a civilization existing for thousands or millions of years, never knowing where it came from or how it got here. And in their last moments, the link to their ancient homeworld is found. There's no time to celebrate, only enough time to index the Humans so that they might start over after the Halo array is fired.```Or maybe not species, but there's a word that has a similar meaning
gilded mason
Though they ain't original to me, I just reposted them cause I really liked it. 😋
feral perch
I'm not a fan of it tbf. I like how things are in Greg Bear's novels.
versed helm
I gotta say, as an oldschool fan, I was very frustrated when the Didact appeared in neo-Halo and was a weird toothy alien man with silly hair
feral perch
Have you taken a gander at the manipular Bornstellar?
versed helm
I always thought the "you ARE Forerunner" twist was one of the coolest things in oldschool Halo
and it felt very strange to see the Forerunners just being a fairly generic humanoid non-human race
Can't argue with that.
gilded mason
Though even in Halo 3, we had the terminals and comic muddle that "you ARE Forerunner" thing.
versed helm
I like 343's take on their armour design, though.
I also feel like the decision to bring the Didact and the Librarian and all that into the 26th century was...
Extremely detrimental to the weight of their actions before the Array fired
feral perch
Guilty Spark was deranged and insane.
gilded mason
Yeah, personally, I would've wanted actual Forerunners to stay in the past.
feral perch
His beliefs and statements are far from gospel
versed helm
The point stands that it was a fairly cool notion for all its simplicity.
It turns the Terminals in Halo 3 from a terribly sad, heavy thing into
feral perch
Calling the Chief a Forerunner was just like him talking to Chief like he was Bornstellar
versed helm
a bunch of silly-looking people having petty fights
feral perch
how bigoted of you /s
versed helm
StoneWall, that doesn't really jibe with Mendicant Bias' fragment's statements though
Silly people having petty fights is a decent summary of sentient life, to be fair.
feral perch
Those are also entirely suspect, Pidge.
versed helm
It'd be really strange for multiple monitors to all say "yeah, humans are reclaimer"
terse lava
Human forerunner is lazy though
versed helm
OK, so the entire foundation of the series is based on the testimony of two unreliable AI, cool, I guess we can just throw everything away
terse lava
That's like the ancients from star gate
feral perch
Don't be like that.
Guilty Spark was rampant, and Mendicant Bias was a traitor who was fragmented and spent equal amount of time alone
Neither of them are trustworthy
versed helm
Is silently triggered by the usage of rampant in a context non exclusive to human AIs
What about the sentinels on Onyx that responded to human presence with codephrases and then concluded they were "aboriginal subspecies' when the person didn't know the response?
All of this is just rationalizing 343's retcons
feral perch
It's Bungie's retcons
versed helm
Negative
feral perch
yesative
versed helm
Niceative.
feral perch
Bungie was already making Forerunners a separate species by Halo 2.
terse lava
Bungie was the one who made the forerunners alien rather then human
versed helm
Get a little more mileage out of the plot point.
feral perch
Where's CIA when you need him, lol, I'll check Halopedia
but by Halo 3, the Forerunners absolutely were separate aliens
terse lava
Yep
versed helm
the "you ARE Forerunner" line is -from- H3
carmine sleet
Spark was clearly not in a state of mind where he was thinking clearly in that scene
feral perch
^^^^
He killed Johnson over "protocol" for goodness sake
It was a metaphysical, spiritual line. "You are Forerunner" is symbolism, not meant to be taken literally
terse lava
Was pretty much bungie's fault for not getting stuff down concrete regarding forerunners
feral perch
It sounded cool. Bungie did it for the cool factor.
They killed off Miranda and Johnson for emotional weight
versed helm
A little reductive to put things that way, don't you think?
Most things that are written in fiction are written for those purposes.
Just because they are, doesn't mean they defy closer contextual examination.
feral perch
Sure.
versed helm
I find it bizarre that Bungie put a bunch of retcons into their setting right when they were preparing to abandon ship, but I guess that's their prerogative
feral perch
Still, let's not downplay the fact that he was an insane, addled Monitor.
versed helm
I do wish that 343 hadn't focused on the Forerunners as the primary motivating force of the subsequent media though
You mean regarding Reach?
On Bungie's retcons.
Regarding Reach and regarding H3's change of terms for what a Forerunner is
Reach is a mess that makes my head hurt.
feral perch
Winter Contingency is the most boring opening level ever lol
Wish their retcon hadn't included it
versed helm
I have played it
So much recently
it's great
You know 3-Charlie spawn in different places depending on your route through the level
feral perch
It's ugly and slow-paced with no real tension until you get inside
Yeah, that's annoying lol
versed helm
I played the crap out of Reach and then my 360 RRoD'd playing Symphony of the Night shortly after I beat it, so I haven't replayed it since the year it came out
There's hidden shotguns
3 of them
But I'll just say
feral perch
The proper place for the final countryside fight is by the bridge and the river
terse lava
Not that fun of a level really
versed helm
How the -hell- did nobody in the UNSC really know that there were thousands of Covenant ground forces landed on Reach
I cannot stand the justification that the Covenant knocked out a local comm relay
feral perch
careful with bypassing the censor
feral perch
oh okay
versed helm
Is Hell a bad word?
terse lava
Guess not
versed helm
To very specific American demographics that can go shove it
feral perch
forget u man
versed helm
Anyway. The notion that comms were out for two weeks and the majority of Reach didn't know that there were Covenant on the ground is absurd
The orbital MAC battery fired on the Covenant ship in-atmosphere
feral perch
I'd recommend watching Halo Canon's summary of the Battle for Reach that just came out
versed helm
I watched it, it's still bogus
feral perch
Hm.
versed helm
You mean to tell me that they got the Super MAC to fire -at the planet- and hit the ship, that there were Slipspace jumps and multiple major explosions, and nobody was made aware of this at NavSpecWep?
feral perch
What can I say except Bungo pls
versed helm
The Covenant invasion force that came to Reach consisted of -hundreds- of ships and dozens were knocked out in the first Super MAC volley almost immediately after emerging from Slipspace
I mean, I've got a sorta sequence of events in my head that I find plausible for now.
Oooh
But this one Sangheili treasure hunting cruiser managed to make landfall weeks before they showed up? OKAY.
terse lava
@versed helmmegacarrier
versed helm
May I?
humble yacht
Super carrier
feral perch
same thing, Chimera
versed helm
Let's split hairs, okay
Every Covenant ship is just a cruiser scaled up or down
So the first thing that happens is that the CSO approaches Reach. It's big, it's stealthy, it manages to make it past the guns.
You know what I meant
feral perch
wat
versed helm
No, literally, look at the majority of Covenant capital ship designs and they are nearly identical aside from scale
A covert mission is sent to the Viery territory to construct the stealth canopies and the teleporters
proud quail
if fresspace taught me anything
versed helm
It's even stated in the books
versed helm
Spart_n
terse lava
@humble yachtdidnt nizat confirm it as a megacarrier?
feral perch
you can say the same thing about UNSC ships
deep pewter
There’s really no reason to try to make sense of Bungie’s Reach storyline, there is no sense in it
versed helm
I caaaaannn tho
Kinda
It's nonsensical to suggest that the ship was hidden
😦
Right, the theory is that it's got Forerunner stealth systems.
That's why it's designated CSO.
humble yacht
Senseless? More like senseless fun
versed helm
They fired an orbital Super MAC at it and that was like a week before John-117 arrived on planet to get his shielded MJOLNIR
That bit I ignore
Ackerson was still cooking up plans to launch a missile at a Spartan-II
I do not take the second half of TFoR to be canon
deep pewter
It is pretty fun watching Noble Team die tbh
feral perch
hrrnnnngggg
terse lava
Could believe the carrier had baffles and other forerunner tech active to keep safe
versed helm
Then once again we are picking and choosing our canon huh
Everything post-Sigma Octanus is a nono for me from the book.
feral perch
bad Looters, bad
versed helm
Yes, I am.
I admit it.
But it's a good pick-n'-choose.
I promise.
Ado, that's a fabrication
We are -rationalizing things- once again
It's fun to do that, though.
feral perch
That's a big part of Halo canon though
deep pewter
I forgot about how out of wack the timeline is for John
versed helm
If we are going to make up reasons for things to work, completely without any evidence,
Well, I gotta dip out guys.
Play nice!
Then where is the line?
proud quail
there is none
humble yacht
The line is a non sequitor
feral perch
We draw the line where we need it, to quote Price
proud quail
When it comes to Spec Ops, there is no Line
proud quail
Besides The Line.
versed helm
I love that you used that
John-117 got picked by Dr. Halsey because the Librarian sent her an email that said "hey make child soldiers now pls"
terse lava
@versed helmi did say I could believe it, never said that's what happened. Just have to use what we are given how the carrier got through
feral perch
yee
proud quail
space genes would've made a lot of sense for spartan IIs, honestly
if it was established earlier
versed helm
Removing all your characters' agency and accomplishments in favor of some kind of programmed destiny doesn't make your story better or deeper
proud quail
the sudden reveal is a bit lol
versed helm
It makes it irritating
autumn urchin
only halo reach is canon, rest is johns imagination during a coma
feral perch
Irritating in what way?
proud quail
why didnt you warn us of Cortana's post shenanigans though
versed helm
Wouldn't you be upset if you were told all of your accomplishments and struggles and choices weren't yours, that you were just carrying out the will of some long-dead jerk's hypnotic suggestions?
proud quail
to be faaaaiiiirrrrr
gilded mason
Halo 5 story bad
Correct. 😉
proud quail
the whole "these 100-something kids out of a population of more than ten billion had the specific genes to become super soldiers" makes sense for weird space genes
versed helm
Or it could just be your average run of the mill eugenics program
feral perch
There were 300 candidates initially
deep pewter
What day does John receive his Mark V armor in TFoR?
gilded mason
@deep pewter
August 29
versed helm
august 29, 2552
deep pewter
Well that’s just awful
versed helm
spart_n I don't think you understand what I mean when I say "average run of the mill eugenics program"
feral perch
Is there an equivalent of "OK BOOMER" in the Halo universe?
I'd probably say it was Palmer's first words to Chief
humble yacht
!mute @versed helm 1h
proud quail
there it is
gilded mason
O-Oh
feral perch
oh wow
terse lava
What happened?
feral perch
Mods won't tell you probably, they're tight-lipped about that
humble yacht
Pro tip: don’t link to stuff you know breaks the rules
terse lava
Not wise indeed
feral perch
that is a pro tip
terse lava
Yep
Anyway, if 343 was to make a sequel to one of the novels, which would you choose gets it?
feral perch
Ghosts of Onyx, erasing the Kilo-5 trilogy
versed helm
Would love a sequel to Broken Circle
gilded mason
Ghosts of Onyx, erasing the Kilo-5 trilogy
👌
terse lava
I would say yes to broken circle as well, same as the first book. One half follows the early covenant, perhaps centuries after the rending, and the other half follows the ussans in the current era
gilded mason
Maybe not. I wouldn't want it to be split in two
versed helm
I was
feral perch
I re-read a couple pages not too long ago and it was worse than I remembered
versed helm
Care to elaborate?
feral perch
The Halsey hating
deep pewter
I’m excited to read Kilo-5 soon, most of the time this community is being over dramatic
feral perch
The dialogue read like she was writing for Gears of War, too.
versed helm
I found it to be quite sympathetic to Halsey.
Everyone's kinda grossed out at her, but Traviss is fairly honest when she gets inside her head.
feral perch
we all have different takes
versed helm
That much is clear.
And the soldiers of Gears of War should sound quite alike to the soldiers of the Halo universe when you remove Gears cheesiness.
gilded mason
pls no
versed helm
Mal is cool.
versed helm
It's tied with Vaz's.
Would love for Staten to come back and do another he r novella
Two people, one role.
They're entertaining.
proud quail
he's not as gung ho as vaz and he's supposed to be the voice of reason
feral perch
pretty much
proud quail
but BB does the voice of reason with vaz so much better
feral perch
Looters, Gears' biggest charm is the cheesiness. Cole Train baby!
versed helm
This is the point where I need to take a step back
Because this conversation is beginning to reek of pretentious YouTube-style criticism
feral perch
coletrainbaby
proud quail
wild
versed helm
Hope to get another book with Rtas as the lead
gilded mason
That would be nice
versed helm
I would go for that.
gilded mason
Really, just moreSangheili protagonists in general
proud quail
do i really want to read an atriox book
gilded mason
How about a book with a Jiralhanae protagonist?
no they smelly doo doo
versed helm
@feral perch Interesting I like that idea
I kinda want more Covenant POV vs humans, y'know?
Like Covenant factions fighting humans.
feral perch
I mean prior to the Jiralhanae being absorbed into the Covenant
something about the civil war on Doisac
versed helm
What I mean is I want to see the Covenant side of the conflict
Principally to explore humanity from that lens
obsidian thistle
I kinda want a story in which the Covies are the heroes for once.
feral perch
ostral y u be like this
versed helm
Right, that's what I mean
feral perch
Covenant v Flood works nicely for that
gilded mason
Yeah, that'd be cool
I kinda want a story in which the Covies are the heroes for once.
❤
feral perch
There's the vague idea that the Covenant were facing multiple threats during the Human-Covenant War. Mostly Regret's comments from Halo Wars, Atriox stuff, and...
Something else, I think
versed helm
Would be curious to see the Covenant propaganda machine to hate Humanity
gilded mason
"Humans interrupt you while talking. Do you want these savages in the Covenant?"
terse lava
@obsidian thistleyea. We are told the commando harness in halo 3 was modeled off armor worn by covenant heros
carmine sleet
"Humanity don't make their young fend for themselves. A weak race should never be in the Covenant!"
feral perch
but San'Shyuum?
versed helm
“Protect your young from these dirty Humans!”
carmine sleet
I was joking with what I said, StoneWall
terse lava
Btw, wasnt the covenant so vast they didnt even know what humans even were?
gilded mason
Like, they didn't know the war even started, or something?
terse lava
Thay or they wernt aware what humans were
gilded mason
I imagine so, yeah
terse lava
I think something like that was mentioned in the kilo books
gilded mason
A funny thought came to mind about it. A colony was off doing their own thing for a couple decades when another Covenant colony/ship makes contact with them.
"Oh hey, how're y'all doin'?"
"Well, we got into another war. A new race, can you believe it? Anyway, it's finished now and the Covenant kinda dissolved."
"Oh...huh."
terse lava
" ah...heh heh heh.....HERESY "
But yes, bet there are covenant colonies out there not aware their empire has gone poof
gilded mason
"Bah, good riddance, I say. What's the Covenant ever done fer me?"
stoic hamlet
“Down with the Upper Classes Prophets!”
~ some heretics, maybe.
terse lava
Darn flood cultists
humble yacht
Nothing
versed helm
Wouldn't the reason as to why the Covenant never sent their full military might against humanity is because they might've been waging war against other interstellar civilizations and the Banished
gilded mason
Possibly the former, but not the latter
versed helm
We need a political map of the Halo galaxy,like i want to see what other civilizations the Covenant shared borders with
Remember the unknown bipeds on the Planet of Blue and Red
terse lava
I agree, I always figured the covenant was either fighting other races, or couldn't afford to pull armies/navies from borders due to other tier 2 races
Otherwise are we to believe the covenant were the sole tier 2 race in the galaxy?
versed helm
I'm actually thinking that the Orion Arm is actually split into three separate pieces
terse lava
Hm?why
versed helm
Like the Covenant controlled one half of the Orion Arm while Mankind controls the other half,while the third piece is the unexplored parts of the Orion Arm
terse lava
Would not agree on one part. Humanity didntbreally control much I'd anything
versed helm
Just to clarify, Keyes is canonically white right?
terse lava
Yes
versed helm
Awesome, so this new TV show isn't canon to me then.
True,i mean,they only had 800 planets
By the way, is Ado one of the co-op elites from H3?
Could there have been anyway to prevent the Insurrection from happening in the first place?
gilded mason
The co-op Elites were N'tho and Usze
versed helm
Ah, my mistake sorry.
gilded mason
Could there have been anyway to prevent the Insurrection from happening in the first place?
Probably
terse lava
@versed helmpardon?
gilded mason
Though I imagine it would require making some large changes in governance strategy
versed helm
@terse lava I just clarifying something, I thought that Ado was one of the playable co-op elites from H3.
I mean,humanity had like what,800 planets at its peak,so why not just split them up into 400 Inner Colonies and 400 Outer Colonies
gilded mason
humanity had like what,800 planets at its peak
Much less
The 800 figure includes numerous outposts and space stations
terse lava
@versed helmoh, nope